I was trained by Mitsugi Sotome Sensei and started with him in 1977 and this is spot on. This is percisly how I was taught. Much of what one sees these days is a disaster. The poor student is in a position of "caveat emptor". Rank doesn't mean much any more either. Keep fighting the good fight, even if so few are listening.
Thanks for engaging George, big admirer of your work. I feel we are reaching the point of no return now whereby the perceived "technical upline" is nothing more than a glorified MLM system creating income for a few, struggling to keep the family business alive. This art has so much to offer but not if at it's core it's based upon delusion and falsehoods.
Good to see another 'senior rank" agreeing George. So much utter nonsense beings trained now, and a lot is coming out of japan unfortunately and being ratified by rank. We are def seeing a bit of a "modified Aikido" revolution here in NZ, I wonder if it's happening elsewhere, with dojo's returning to pre-war praticality?
My 2 cents: 1) these people usually have no understanding of realistic physical altercations and 2) nowadays being a senior or top-ranking person is most often a political matter with lots of brown-nosing involved, also 3) they weren't explained things properly so 3) they like to make shit up on the go just to "look smart" or "be different"
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE yes it is. And I hate to say it but it makes sense we are the laughing stock of the martial arts community. We are approaching a point of no return
Good post, brave. Funny thing was the ad I got beforehand for anger management courses LMAO! seriously, totally agree with you on this. Do one about the silly modern iriminage dance :)
extremely valid points, not only with regards to the performance of tenkan but also of grade inflation. happens in all arts but Aikido seems to have some of the worst offenders as without comeptition there is no-way to adjudge ability
Totally agree, tenkan was never a sweep, I learned that tenkan is used for keeping your balance or your center and to also avoid an attack. I feel that Aikido is losing or has lost its creditability in the martial arts world because of so called high ranking idiots that just make up things because they are completely lost and can't face the fact they have no idea and hombu doesn't bother to correct them.
My master who is a hapkido teacher . Always remind his student to focus on this footwork now i know the name lul. He was a aikido high rank black belt. Left his school because there was a lot of thing went wrong with nowaday aikido teaching.
I haven't seen the woman's technique. I'm open to the idea that this is a problem with semantics. It is possible that she was describing the movement as sweeping because it is often taught with the foot sweeping in an arc, not as a sweeping technique. Using the sweeping movement is circular and has momentum. For a smaller person, that circular movement may help drive the technique.
That is still incorrect. If performed like that it is being performed incorrectly, therefore not tenkan, but something else, perhaps barai. Tenkan by its nature is a hip rotation and step straight back - it even literally translates to "divert/covert" which clearly outlines it function. A 7th dan should know this.
Thanks for you comment Leon. Unless something is done the art will cease to exist soon, that why ourselves and a handful of others are encouraging Aikidoka to look broader for input to improve their budo
You can see the sweep takes you off balance, your uki could quite easily give you a nudge and you are going backwards. Ive always been taught no matter which direction parts of your body are going in, there is only forward and down, it keeps you stable.
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE yes it is a simplification but just to say I can understand your frustration. Digressing we have discussions about thinking forwards and down quite frequently. The concepts of where and what your thinking about affects your balance is not easy, I'm trying to work out how to feel someone attention change, I've felt it once or twice. Sorry Digressing. Enjoyed your video.
too many theories ... there is a lot of energy in "tenkan", the 180 degree turn itself can be done in place without a "ballet" on one leg ... fragments of a turn in a very short version (short angle of rotation) "tenkan" is a boxing descent (which can be with a counter strike) or a lateral deviation thanks to the hip twist ...
I agree that in the base tenkan movement the foot should move in as straight a line as possible. (and back at the beginning of the pandemic posted a video or two of what I consider the basic tenkan practice). I am not fan of the way it was done in the video you are probably reacting to. You make good points. That said, I don't think that it's categorically wrong to swing the foot, as there are specific cases where it is appropriate to practice it with the exaggerated arc as the foot moves to the rear. I am sure there are details in my own tenkan that you might say are not the best basic way. There are some differences between the way I do it and the way you demonstrated here even though the basic point you are making is the same. Some of this just depends on the reasons for doing it one way or a another. I do think it is possible the use a sweeping motion and still keep balance and power, but the timing needs to be different as well as the direction of the power applied. The problem is, the sweeping motion as a basic, encourages a kind of sloppiness and is usually unconsidered. Side note: I disagree that the Nidai Doshu was not technically very good. Certainly he was not his father and he also had different objectives. The current Doshu has said something to the effect that he would like to show more, but his position did not allow him to demonstrate publicly things outside the basic curriculum. I suspect some of that was also in play for Doshu Kisshomaru. In any case, I saw him once at a demo and was amazed at his smoothness and precision, which never came through to me on videos.
I still maintain that tenkan isnt a sweep. otherwise it would be called "barai/harai" or something else. at speed the centripetal force may indeed take the foot away from the body but its a tight pivot, not a sweep. Re Doshu, why did he even take over when Saito, Tohei, Shioda etc were all eminently more qualified. The minute that happened, the technical side of the art was diluted, and has continued to worse over time. Passing a technical art down through a family lineage is deluded.
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE Yes! I agree completely with your essential point. I agree that in it's essential form the foot should not sweep around. I'm just saying that there are specific cases were sweeping it around is useful. (the way it's demonstrated in the video I think you are reacting to is not one of them) My feeling is that being too definitive on a good point leaves that point open to nit-picking and was just trying to suggest a more flexible presentation. The manner in which it's done matters. Someone posted a video of Chiba Sensei "using a sweeping movement", I don't see that comment anymore, but I watched the video. Chiba Sensei mostly used a straight line footwork so it didn't quite support the posters point, but where he did sweep the foot around in a couple of spots, he was already 2/3 of the way through the movement, the legs having already passed each-other. This demonstrated one rational way of using that sweeping movement. The sweep is sort of there, but it's still consistent with what I think you are saying. The movement name might deserve its own video. ;) I can't speak to the Doshu question really. I do think his Aikido was impressive in person. Were there more impressive people that could have taken over? I tend to think the decision was more about politics, business and culture than anything else (which may be what you are also getting at?).
@@JonathanLewis1 that was my post re. Chiba Sensei - in the first two examples of the Chiba Sensei video there is a strong irimi followed by a turn with an evident sweep. As per my other other comments, I am not suggesting that a sweep is required in order for the turn to be tenkan, and I am not suggesting that Sensei Duncan is wrong - I am only disagreeing with the perspective that tenkan is not a sweep (like, ever). I happen to agree very strongly with sensei Duncan about the quality of teaching that appears to be on offer in the wider Aikido community. I think I found the original video that is being referred to and I agree that it's pretty bad. I'm not a fan of that Sensei, their Aikido lacks spirit, focus, power and 'martialness' (is that a word??)
@@pgl79 We may not disagree. This is almost certainly a semantic difference. We define a sweep differently. From my point of view once the retreating leg passes what becomes the front leg, it's path is no longer relevant to the sweeping around / not sweeping around point. Of course it will sweep around if the body continues to turn before it touches the ground. In other words, from my point of view, if the legs pass each other narrowly, it's not sweeping around, if they pas eachother widely, it is. If you watch Chiba Sensei in slow motion you can see that the feet never pass eachother at more than shoulder width, regardless of what they do after that. This may clarify what I mean. ruclips.net/video/tfYC4RXQqNg/видео.html Valarie Allman, and the woman right after her, Daisy Osakue, have similar technique. Both, in the two steps before the release of the disc, step with a wide sweep first, then their legs pass each other relatively narrowly. Once the disc is released, they continue to turn using a wide sweep to slow the turn down for the recovery. The actual power step for both is relatively narrow. Different ways of moving for different purposes.
ALL grappling arts have a kihon (basic) that involves wrist or sleeve grabs, its not about fighting its about letting students learn about connection and kuzushi. We are saying some pf those basic drill could be tweaked thats all. Also, I disagree about training "full on" thats no good for beginners all you get is cardio and injuries until you have some skill and sensitivity.
She drifts onto her back at the end of the movement as well, pitching the central axis to the rear, thus facilitating use of upper body strength. She is actually retreating, whether you retreat in front or behind it is still retreating. The action of irrimi/tenkan starts with irrimi, and never gives up irrimi. She is absolutely wrong, terrible ground connection, terrible understanding of fundamentals, terrible advice.(I watched the video), if those that understand don’t call out these teachers on this crap Aikido will remain a laughing stock….
I totally understand that different styles have different ways of doing things, but as you so rightly point out, the underlying body mechanics HAVE to be correct or it's nonsense. It really worries me that this is what is coming from the "seniors" within the art.. Thanks for your considered response by the way.
My only criticism is for the over use of the zoom in, zoom out formatting of your videos (they would be much nicer to watch without that) no issues with the content or rant :)
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE Good I'm glad, it will make your video's better to watch, special effects cease to be special when they are used so much. I was kind of curious to see if I could find the video you were ranting about. I think I did find this video, what I noticed though was that it was on a channel not specifically aimed at Aikido videos. Rather it was just one short video amongst many others all to do with movement, and every single other video on that channel that i checked also had the comments switched off. If this is correct (because of course I may have been looking at something different) then I think your comment about the "comments being switched off on the video" is somewhat undeserving, since this unlikely to be in the control of the said teacher. Perhaps you can double check and advise?
Now that I have had a bit more time to think about your video, I'm really going to become a bit more critical of it, but perhaps not in the way you expect. Let me start by saying that I do my Tenkan exactly the same way as you, but that hasn't always been the case. My very first teacher taught not only to sweep on the back step but also with the front step, keeping the foot always on the ground to maintain your balance through the movement and not over extending the leg. His Aikido was really wonderful, soft, fluid and powerful (sadly he is no longer on this earth to ask his opinion) a real source of inspiration. At some point in my training it changed and my preferred method is exactly the same as you show and teach. Just experimenting around with the Tenkan movement itself, I find if I turn the body with an emphasis on using the centre/torso rather than driving the motion with the hips there does seem to be a natural tendency for the foot to sweep out on the back step. In the video you demonstrated in my opinion a half-a*** effort (excuse my words) at actually doing the technique this way, and that is ok, because you were mid rant and explaining your views about it with your students. I do think if you were really open to exploring the movement you probably could get it work, perhaps not as well as the normal way you teach it, but at least to a passable effort. My old teacher never had any issues doing an Irimi Tenkan Ikkyo and I'm sure if I tried I could probably do a reasonable one with a bit of practise. So my criticism is more directed at your righteousness that there is a correct way to do something, and this is a big issue in many places in my opinion. Of course you are dojo cho and a senior instructor so you need to have opinions about these things, and must set the standards for your students, that is completely understandable. In my experience of training within different organisations and under different teachers there is no single one correct way of doing any Aikido techniques, rather just peoples preferences (maybe with good reason or maybe not) and just variations (some being more efficient than others). The old cliche of "there is more than one way to skin a cat" in my experience is very true. I think your judgement of the general state of Aikido whilst there is some probably truth in it, is also heavily clouded by your own biases in the way that you believe that the techniques should be done. Anyway I hope you are not offended by anything I have written, that is not my intention.
Thank you for sharing, Sensei. I don't think that I have seen the 'other' video that you mention (is there a link?), so my following comments are not a defence of that video, and they most certainly are not a criticism of yours - they are merely observations from my own training. In Yoshinkan the basic body movement exercises are referred to as kihon dosa and include a movement called 'tai no henko ni', which is tenkan in all but name. In tai no henko ni there is a forward intention and the turn does include what could be described as a 'sweep' of the outward turning leg. Please see following link for reference: ruclips.net/video/mFjDzqxkRm4/видео.html In the book 'Aikido' by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, on page 28, there is a description of tenkan that includes diagrams of the movement. The text states "swinging your [right] foot around as if stepping backwards" and the diagram indicates an arc - not a straight step backwards. In reference to the video above, when demonstrating at 2:14, the heel of the outward turning leg is up, the centre of mass appears to be too high and the intention is not forward - all of this results in instability and a lack of balance (and therefore power). In application, as at 3:45, there appears to be a disconnection of the body with the constituent parts moving independently (that is, the bottom half turning and the top half being left behind) therefore uke is not unbalanced and can maintain a stable centre. The application of tai no henko ni can be seen quite well in the following video of shomen uchi ikkajo osae ni (or shomen uchi ikkyo ura, if you prefer) - ruclips.net/video/d19XQaYiXX4/видео.html All this is a long way of saying that tenkan *can* involve a sweeping movement of the outward turning leg - I think it will depend on the particulars of the situation at any given time. Thank you again for the video, I very much enjoy your content! Osu :) ::Edit:: Grammar ::Edit 2:: I think I found the video that you are referring to. It's not very good - but then again, I'm not particularly enamoured with that particular sensei, from what I've seen.
Honestly, Dosshu wasnt actually very good! That's half the problem! He was a good marketer and a half decent businessman but a very average technical practitioner. Tenkan really can never be a sweep because it destabilises the very essence of what the movement is there to create, ie stability and torque. Having trained with some very good Yoshinkan people over the year though I do understand that the "straight back leg" stance they prefer does lend itself to more a sweeping movement.
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE thank you for taking the time to respond, I think this is a great opportunity for a good conversation. I should clarify - I am not suggesting that tenkan *must* be a sweeping movement. I am simply not in agreement that it *isn't* (and, by extension, mustn't?) a sweep. It most definitely *can* be a sweep and this motion needn't disrupt our balance. If I may, please see the following video of the late TK Chiba sensei (not Yoshinkan), where the irimi tenkan appears to involve a sweep, showing that there is power being generated and no loss of balance. I think this does a better job than my poor description. Osu ruclips.net/video/UfJQwgTT7w0/видео.html
Having watched this video several times now I realise that I missed the primary point - although the discussion is about tenkan at a surface level, it's really about the state of Aikido teaching in the wider Aikido community. I really admire Sensei Dunken's passion for our art - I love the open minded approach taken by Aikido Silverdale as well. I certainly agree that there is an awful lot of shit out there. Aikido that lacks spirit, power and focus. It's wishy-washy and weak and it's little wonder that, as an art, it's an absolute laughing stock. I think it's important to practice the basics and it's also important to allow an element of creativity - a balance is required though. You can't spend the whole time going 'off book' if you've never spent any time on the proper basics. Likewise, you can't spend the whole time doing kata without doing something more free flowing. So, my apologies for my initial misunderstanding - the quality of teaching in the broader community definitely needs a shake-up! Osu. (oh, and tenkan *can* have a sweep 😉😂)
thanks for taking the time - we disagree of some aspects of this but the IMPORTANT thing is we are talking about this, in the open, and that I really appreciate.
@@pgl79 I hope so. A very (very!) seniorJapanese instructor once told me tenkan meant "to divert or convert" and that O sensei showed it as a way of moving where the centre of the technique was to allow your partner space to be redirected around that new centre. For me, if you were going to do a movement "like" this as a sweep, I'd teach it and explain it differently, even go as far as to call it "Barai" just so the core principles are separated. As you mentioned, this video is more about the accurate passing on of information than anything else. Thanks again for engaging, we appreciate your support! DF
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE "more about the accurate passing on of information than anything else" and yet in your video you say "on this particular video, the only thing I need to tell you was underneath it said comments turned off" and later when you have been asked to quantify the context of the said turned off comments you say ........nothing....not a peep...... a tumble weed rolls by. And so we the writers and readers of comments are left to draw our own conclusions about the accuracy of the said "turned off comment" comment. This is one of those pot, kettle, black moments.
@@kaishinkaiarchives My apologies, I don't spend all day on RUclips. We also have over 200 other videos which my guys line up comments that I need to respond to. Ref this clip; The comments were turned off. Whoever turned them off is irrelevant, but it makes you wonder why? If all you can take from this video is that comment, and not the main point that people at the top in our art were being awarded ranks clearly for reasons other than technical ability, and then what I hoped was a fairly detailed breakdown of the mechanics of a fundamental tai sabaki, then I'm not sure what I can say. Sorry this seems to have upset you so much, again, I'm not really sure why when it was a throwaway comment right at the end. Thanks for engaging and have a great day.
@@vyli1 Actually I do, as well as some of my student who are/were police and prison guards. Once again you are making sweeping comments based upon ignorance. 0 for 2. Want to try again? MMA is a sport, not real life... 0 for 3? We can do this all day. Why not post a video showing us your skills, as you are obviously such an expert? ;)
Why is it there is always some fool like this making stupid "anti Aikido" comments on every video? no actual martial artists of any level of experience would ever denigrate another art, because they understand that all arts have their place. My money is this is yet another stupid teenager that has never trained a day in his/her life and should really stick to playing fortnite.
If you'd like to support our channel, please watch the AIKIDO SILVERDALE PLAYLIST ruclips.net/video/3lNflHbvHb8/видео.html
I was trained by Mitsugi Sotome Sensei and started with him in 1977 and this is spot on. This is percisly how I was taught. Much of what one sees these days is a disaster. The poor student is in a position of "caveat emptor". Rank doesn't mean much any more either. Keep fighting the good fight, even if so few are listening.
Thanks for engaging George, big admirer of your work. I feel we are reaching the point of no return now whereby the perceived "technical upline" is nothing more than a glorified MLM system creating income for a few, struggling to keep the family business alive. This art has so much to offer but not if at it's core it's based upon delusion and falsehoods.
Good to see another 'senior rank" agreeing George. So much utter nonsense beings trained now, and a lot is coming out of japan unfortunately and being ratified by rank. We are def seeing a bit of a "modified Aikido" revolution here in NZ, I wonder if it's happening elsewhere, with dojo's returning to pre-war praticality?
Bang on mate. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Karl
Spot on.
thank you Tom
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE keep up the great work. Maybe I'll get to visit in person some day.
@@tomroberts5866 Open door here. Just give us a heads up so we can fill the beer fridge
My 2 cents: 1) these people usually have no understanding of realistic physical altercations and 2) nowadays being a senior or top-ranking person is most often a political matter with lots of brown-nosing involved, also 3) they weren't explained things properly so 3) they like to make shit up on the go just to "look smart" or "be different"
100% agree with you, and have seen the dilution of the art via those people's students in recent decades. It's a terrible thing to see unfortunately.
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE yes it is. And I hate to say it but it makes sense we are the laughing stock of the martial arts community. We are approaching a point of no return
@@ocaikiclub2859 Numbers are down 95% from the 80's Saito/Seagal heydays. It's become compliant tai chi in skirts that funnels cash back to Japan...
Less ranty videos coming soon.
well said and delivered.
thanks Jason
Good post, brave. Funny thing was the ad I got beforehand for anger management courses LMAO! seriously, totally agree with you on this. Do one about the silly modern iriminage dance :)
😃
extremely valid points, not only with regards to the performance of tenkan but also of grade inflation. happens in all arts but Aikido seems to have some of the worst offenders as without comeptition there is no-way to adjudge ability
Totally agree, tenkan was never a sweep, I learned that tenkan is used for keeping your balance or your center and to also avoid an attack. I feel that Aikido is losing or has lost its creditability in the martial arts world because of so called high ranking idiots that just make up things because they are completely lost and can't face the fact they have no idea and hombu doesn't bother to correct them.
Bang on the money Sal...
The difference between what o sensei originally taught and the stuff coming from Aikikai now is huge. #moneyistheanswer
😂
My master who is a hapkido teacher . Always remind his student to focus on this footwork now i know the name lul. He was a aikido high rank black belt. Left his school because there was a lot of thing went wrong with nowaday aikido teaching.
Sr for bad english thou
Sorry to hear that, but it's it uncommon nowadays unfortunately
I haven't seen the woman's technique. I'm open to the idea that this is a problem with semantics. It is possible that she was describing the movement as sweeping because it is often taught with the foot sweeping in an arc, not as a sweeping technique. Using the sweeping movement is circular and has momentum. For a smaller person, that circular movement may help drive the technique.
That is still incorrect. If performed like that it is being performed incorrectly, therefore not tenkan, but something else, perhaps barai. Tenkan by its nature is a hip rotation and step straight back - it even literally translates to "divert/covert" which clearly outlines it function. A 7th dan should know this.
Totally 100% agree
Thanks for you comment Leon. Unless something is done the art will cease to exist soon, that why ourselves and a handful of others are encouraging Aikidoka to look broader for input to improve their budo
You can see the sweep takes you off balance, your uki could quite easily give you a nudge and you are going backwards. Ive always been taught no matter which direction parts of your body are going in, there is only forward and down, it keeps you stable.
A simplification but essentially true
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE yes it is a simplification but just to say I can understand your frustration. Digressing we have discussions about thinking forwards and down quite frequently. The concepts of where and what your thinking about affects your balance is not easy, I'm trying to work out how to feel someone attention change, I've felt it once or twice. Sorry Digressing. Enjoyed your video.
@@paddyhinton9665 thanks Paddy. There is no doubt things need to change, and I suspect it will come from outside of Japan..
too many theories ... there is a lot of energy in "tenkan", the 180 degree turn itself can be done in place without a "ballet" on one leg ...
fragments of a turn in a very short version (short angle of rotation) "tenkan" is a boxing descent (which can be with a counter strike) or a lateral deviation thanks to the hip twist ...
that version we would call "tenkai" I think but I agree with you on principle 100% - either way it ISNT a sweep lol
Is the kick in the ribs to restore harmony ???
Not really. It's called an "atemi". Google it...
I agree that in the base tenkan movement the foot should move in as straight a line as possible. (and back at the beginning of the pandemic posted a video or two of what I consider the basic tenkan practice). I am not fan of the way it was done in the video you are probably reacting to. You make good points.
That said, I don't think that it's categorically wrong to swing the foot, as there are specific cases where it is appropriate to practice it with the exaggerated arc as the foot moves to the rear. I am sure there are details in my own tenkan that you might say are not the best basic way. There are some differences between the way I do it and the way you demonstrated here even though the basic point you are making is the same. Some of this just depends on the reasons for doing it one way or a another.
I do think it is possible the use a sweeping motion and still keep balance and power, but the timing needs to be different as well as the direction of the power applied. The problem is, the sweeping motion as a basic, encourages a kind of sloppiness and is usually unconsidered.
Side note: I disagree that the Nidai Doshu was not technically very good. Certainly he was not his father and he also had different objectives. The current Doshu has said something to the effect that he would like to show more, but his position did not allow him to demonstrate publicly things outside the basic curriculum. I suspect some of that was also in play for Doshu Kisshomaru. In any case, I saw him once at a demo and was amazed at his smoothness and precision, which never came through to me on videos.
I still maintain that tenkan isnt a sweep. otherwise it would be called "barai/harai" or something else. at speed the centripetal force may indeed take the foot away from the body but its a tight pivot, not a sweep. Re Doshu, why did he even take over when Saito, Tohei, Shioda etc were all eminently more qualified. The minute that happened, the technical side of the art was diluted, and has continued to worse over time. Passing a technical art down through a family lineage is deluded.
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE Yes! I agree completely with your essential point. I agree that in it's essential form the foot should not sweep around.
I'm just saying that there are specific cases were sweeping it around is useful. (the way it's demonstrated in the video I think you are reacting to is not one of them) My feeling is that being too definitive on a good point leaves that point open to nit-picking and was just trying to suggest a more flexible presentation.
The manner in which it's done matters. Someone posted a video of Chiba Sensei "using a sweeping movement", I don't see that comment anymore, but I watched the video. Chiba Sensei mostly used a straight line footwork so it didn't quite support the posters point, but where he did sweep the foot around in a couple of spots, he was already 2/3 of the way through the movement, the legs having already passed each-other. This demonstrated one rational way of using that sweeping movement. The sweep is sort of there, but it's still consistent with what I think you are saying.
The movement name might deserve its own video. ;)
I can't speak to the Doshu question really. I do think his Aikido was impressive in person. Were there more impressive people that could have taken over? I tend to think the decision was more about politics, business and culture than anything else (which may be what you are also getting at?).
@@JonathanLewis1 that was my post re. Chiba Sensei - in the first two examples of the Chiba Sensei video there is a strong irimi followed by a turn with an evident sweep.
As per my other other comments, I am not suggesting that a sweep is required in order for the turn to be tenkan, and I am not suggesting that Sensei Duncan is wrong - I am only disagreeing with the perspective that tenkan is not a sweep (like, ever).
I happen to agree very strongly with sensei Duncan about the quality of teaching that appears to be on offer in the wider Aikido community.
I think I found the original video that is being referred to and I agree that it's pretty bad. I'm not a fan of that Sensei, their Aikido lacks spirit, focus, power and 'martialness' (is that a word??)
@@pgl79 We may not disagree. This is almost certainly a semantic difference. We define a sweep differently. From my point of view once the retreating leg passes what becomes the front leg, it's path is no longer relevant to the sweeping around / not sweeping around point. Of course it will sweep around if the body continues to turn before it touches the ground. In other words, from my point of view, if the legs pass each other narrowly, it's not sweeping around, if they pas eachother widely, it is. If you watch Chiba Sensei in slow motion you can see that the feet never pass eachother at more than shoulder width, regardless of what they do after that.
This may clarify what I mean.
ruclips.net/video/tfYC4RXQqNg/видео.html
Valarie Allman, and the woman right after her, Daisy Osakue, have similar technique. Both, in the two steps before the release of the disc, step with a wide sweep first, then their legs pass each other relatively narrowly. Once the disc is released, they continue to turn using a wide sweep to slow the turn down for the recovery. The actual power step for both is relatively narrow. Different ways of moving for different purposes.
If they are sweeping the keg, it's a sweep, not tenkan. That's the point
Can't disagree with any of that.
Loved Aikido but never offered my hand we fought full on that was the way forward if you want a fighting art.
ALL grappling arts have a kihon (basic) that involves wrist or sleeve grabs, its not about fighting its about letting students learn about connection and kuzushi. We are saying some pf those basic drill could be tweaked thats all. Also, I disagree about training "full on" thats no good for beginners all you get is cardio and injuries until you have some skill and sensitivity.
She drifts onto her back at the end of the movement as well, pitching the central axis to the rear, thus facilitating use of upper body strength. She is actually retreating, whether you retreat in front or behind it is still retreating. The action of irrimi/tenkan starts with irrimi, and never gives up irrimi. She is absolutely wrong, terrible ground connection, terrible understanding of fundamentals, terrible advice.(I watched the video), if those that understand don’t call out these teachers on this crap Aikido will remain a laughing stock….
I totally understand that different styles have different ways of doing things, but as you so rightly point out, the underlying body mechanics HAVE to be correct or it's nonsense. It really worries me that this is what is coming from the "seniors" within the art.. Thanks for your considered response by the way.
My only criticism is for the over use of the zoom in, zoom out formatting of your videos (they would be much nicer to watch without that) no issues with the content or rant :)
Noted and thank you, will pass that on to the editors.
Looks like a few videos already edited but they have taken your comment onboard and will restrict this in future edits!
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE Good I'm glad, it will make your video's better to watch, special effects cease to be special when they are used so much. I was kind of curious to see if I could find the video you were ranting about. I think I did find this video, what I noticed though was that it was on a channel not specifically aimed at Aikido videos. Rather it was just one short video amongst many others all to do with movement, and every single other video on that channel that i checked also had the comments switched off. If this is correct (because of course I may have been looking at something different) then I think your comment about the "comments being switched off on the video" is somewhat undeserving, since this unlikely to be in the control of the said teacher. Perhaps you can double check and advise?
Now that I have had a bit more time to think about your video, I'm really going to become a bit more critical of it, but perhaps not in the way you expect. Let me start by saying that I do my Tenkan exactly the same way as you, but that hasn't always been the case. My very first teacher taught not only to sweep on the back step but also with the front step, keeping the foot always on the ground to maintain your balance through the movement and not over extending the leg. His Aikido was really wonderful, soft, fluid and powerful (sadly he is no longer on this earth to ask his opinion) a real source of inspiration. At some point in my training it changed and my preferred method is exactly the same as you show and teach. Just experimenting around with the Tenkan movement itself, I find if I turn the body with an emphasis on using the centre/torso rather than driving the motion with the hips there does seem to be a natural tendency for the foot to sweep out on the back step. In the video you demonstrated in my opinion a half-a*** effort (excuse my words) at actually doing the technique this way, and that is ok, because you were mid rant and explaining your views about it with your students. I do think if you were really open to exploring the movement you probably could get it work, perhaps not as well as the normal way you teach it, but at least to a passable effort. My old teacher never had any issues doing an Irimi Tenkan Ikkyo and I'm sure if I tried I could probably do a reasonable one with a bit of practise. So my criticism is more directed at your righteousness that there is a correct way to do something, and this is a big issue in many places in my opinion. Of course you are dojo cho and a senior instructor so you need to have opinions about these things, and must set the standards for your students, that is completely understandable. In my experience of training within different organisations and under different teachers there is no single one correct way of doing any Aikido techniques, rather just peoples preferences (maybe with good reason or maybe not) and just variations (some being more efficient than others). The old cliche of "there is more than one way to skin a cat" in my experience is very true. I think your judgement of the general state of Aikido whilst there is some probably truth in it, is also heavily clouded by your own biases in the way that you believe that the techniques should be done. Anyway I hope you are not offended by anything I have written, that is not my intention.
@@kaishinkaiarchives agreed
I cant believe how poor some of the demonstrations coming out of japan are now... the last hombu demo was shocking
no comment...
Thank you for sharing, Sensei. I don't think that I have seen the 'other' video that you mention (is there a link?), so my following comments are not a defence of that video, and they most certainly are not a criticism of yours - they are merely observations from my own training.
In Yoshinkan the basic body movement exercises are referred to as kihon dosa and include a movement called 'tai no henko ni', which is tenkan in all but name.
In tai no henko ni there is a forward intention and the turn does include what could be described as a 'sweep' of the outward turning leg. Please see following link for reference: ruclips.net/video/mFjDzqxkRm4/видео.html
In the book 'Aikido' by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, on page 28, there is a description of tenkan that includes diagrams of the movement. The text states "swinging your [right] foot around as if stepping backwards" and the diagram indicates an arc - not a straight step backwards.
In reference to the video above, when demonstrating at 2:14, the heel of the outward turning leg is up, the centre of mass appears to be too high and the intention is not forward - all of this results in instability and a lack of balance (and therefore power).
In application, as at 3:45, there appears to be a disconnection of the body with the constituent parts moving independently (that is, the bottom half turning and the top half being left behind) therefore uke is not unbalanced and can maintain a stable centre.
The application of tai no henko ni can be seen quite well in the following video of shomen uchi ikkajo osae ni (or shomen uchi ikkyo ura, if you prefer) - ruclips.net/video/d19XQaYiXX4/видео.html
All this is a long way of saying that tenkan *can* involve a sweeping movement of the outward turning leg - I think it will depend on the particulars of the situation at any given time.
Thank you again for the video, I very much enjoy your content! Osu :)
::Edit:: Grammar
::Edit 2:: I think I found the video that you are referring to. It's not very good - but then again, I'm not particularly enamoured with that particular sensei, from what I've seen.
Honestly, Dosshu wasnt actually very good! That's half the problem! He was a good marketer and a half decent businessman but a very average technical practitioner. Tenkan really can never be a sweep because it destabilises the very essence of what the movement is there to create, ie stability and torque. Having trained with some very good Yoshinkan people over the year though I do understand that the "straight back leg" stance they prefer does lend itself to more a sweeping movement.
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE thank you for taking the time to respond, I think this is a great opportunity for a good conversation.
I should clarify - I am not suggesting that tenkan *must* be a sweeping movement. I am simply not in agreement that it *isn't* (and, by extension, mustn't?) a sweep. It most definitely *can* be a sweep and this motion needn't disrupt our balance. If I may, please see the following video of the late TK Chiba sensei (not Yoshinkan), where the irimi tenkan appears to involve a sweep, showing that there is power being generated and no loss of balance. I think this does a better job than my poor description.
Osu
ruclips.net/video/UfJQwgTT7w0/видео.html
I always wonder why Aikifo people moves forward and rotate body at the same time.
you'll need to be more specific for us to respond.
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE what I need to explain in above?
Maybe a time stamp in the video? Would help us see what you are referring to
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE look for 3:41. Body one quarter turned while entering ikkyo.
@@vano-559 the entire point he was making was that this sweep turn was incorrect!
¿¿¿la patada en las costillas es para devolverle la armonía???
Es un arte marcial, o al menos, debería serlo. Atemi es obviamente opcional.
In sumurai times, a sweep would have got your foot cut off. In modern times no sweeping gives you a faster and better balanced movement.
very well put!
Having watched this video several times now I realise that I missed the primary point - although the discussion is about tenkan at a surface level, it's really about the state of Aikido teaching in the wider Aikido community.
I really admire Sensei Dunken's passion for our art - I love the open minded approach taken by Aikido Silverdale as well.
I certainly agree that there is an awful lot of shit out there. Aikido that lacks spirit, power and focus. It's wishy-washy and weak and it's little wonder that, as an art, it's an absolute laughing stock.
I think it's important to practice the basics and it's also important to allow an element of creativity - a balance is required though. You can't spend the whole time going 'off book' if you've never spent any time on the proper basics.
Likewise, you can't spend the whole time doing kata without doing something more free flowing.
So, my apologies for my initial misunderstanding - the quality of teaching in the broader community definitely needs a shake-up!
Osu.
(oh, and tenkan *can* have a sweep 😉😂)
thanks for taking the time - we disagree of some aspects of this but the IMPORTANT thing is we are talking about this, in the open, and that I really appreciate.
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE I suspect that we are probably *more* in agreement than *not*
@@pgl79 I hope so. A very (very!) seniorJapanese instructor once told me tenkan meant "to divert or convert" and that O sensei showed it as a way of moving where the centre of the technique was to allow your partner space to be redirected around that new centre. For me, if you were going to do a movement "like" this as a sweep, I'd teach it and explain it differently, even go as far as to call it "Barai" just so the core principles are separated. As you mentioned, this video is more about the accurate passing on of information than anything else.
Thanks again for engaging, we appreciate your support! DF
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE "more about the accurate passing on of information than anything else" and yet in your video you say "on this particular video, the only thing I need to tell you was underneath it said comments turned off" and later when you have been asked to quantify the context of the said turned off comments you say ........nothing....not a peep...... a tumble weed rolls by. And so we the writers and readers of comments are left to draw our own conclusions about the accuracy of the said "turned off comment" comment. This is one of those pot, kettle, black moments.
@@kaishinkaiarchives My apologies, I don't spend all day on RUclips. We also have over 200 other videos which my guys line up comments that I need to respond to. Ref this clip; The comments were turned off. Whoever turned them off is irrelevant, but it makes you wonder why? If all you can take from this video is that comment, and not the main point that people at the top in our art were being awarded ranks clearly for reasons other than technical ability, and then what I hoped was a fairly detailed breakdown of the mechanics of a fundamental tai sabaki, then I'm not sure what I can say. Sorry this seems to have upset you so much, again, I'm not really sure why when it was a throwaway comment right at the end. Thanks for engaging and have a great day.
Yep. Bet you get some hate for this though man!
indisputable.
I disagree with that assertion - it is certainly disputable
Aikido doesn't work as a practical martial art. It's dancing, not fighting.
You obviously have limited experience of both martial arts and trolling.
@@AIKIDOSILVERDALE And you have no experience applying any of this into real life fighting situations, or in MMA competition.
@@vyli1 Actually I do, as well as some of my student who are/were police and prison guards. Once again you are making sweeping comments based upon ignorance. 0 for 2. Want to try again? MMA is a sport, not real life... 0 for 3? We can do this all day. Why not post a video showing us your skills, as you are obviously such an expert? ;)
Why is it there is always some fool like this making stupid "anti Aikido" comments on every video? no actual martial artists of any level of experience would ever denigrate another art, because they understand that all arts have their place. My money is this is yet another stupid teenager that has never trained a day in his/her life and should really stick to playing fortnite.
@@Clarity2020Australia we have no idea. Perhaps they're lonely and need attention?