you need to point out this procedure is at the base of the cam lobe, you also need to point out this includes the head gasket and head is torqued to spec.
The real springs require a solid lifter and then lash calculation. Hydraulic lifters will be compressed by the heavy spring and give you a too long pushrod.
Trick is that you can change the pushrod length and alter the intensity of cam lift... the rate that the valve comes off the seat and gets to every lift point sooner, though you might give up a little total lift for increased area under the curve.
I believe you are wrong, Where the roller touches the valve stem is where the line should be drawn to (but you can't) Don't believe me? Draw a right angle on a piece of paper, place the Rocker's Trunnion center on the Horizontal line with the Roller tip on the Vertical line at a 45. Sweep the rocker through the arc (I place a small white dot on the side of the roller tip) and see where arc is and you'll notice it is on the Tip of the roller is where the true center of the fulcrum should be. Kind of makes sense it would be at the tip eh?. (at least for my roller rocker)
The roller rolls and actually is in effect an extension of the valve stem. Therefore the actual pivot line IS the center of the tip roller. The video is correct in that.
I have a set of older TFS twisted wedge heads on my Corvette. They require different rockers and pushrods for intake and exhaust. The sharpie marker method is exactly what I used to get it right. Good advice and great video explanation.
I'm trying you're method but i have Howard's link bar lifters(ford 289) When you spin the motor to check 45 degrees angle at half lift my plunjer in the hydraulic lifter will collapse .also when checking valve tip mark. Doesn't it give you a false reading? Thanks
I did mine with the mid lift method, but the roller is out on the exhaust side closer to the edge. It's a sbc with a hydraulic roller and + .100" valves. If I put the sweep in the center, the patern is about .125" wide. With it out about 3/4 of the way out, it's only around .050" wide. I haven't fired it up yet, but I'm thinking of putting lash caps on it just to be safe. Got any advice? Scorpion 1.5 rockers btw.
I tried using this method, but in order to establish the 90 degree angle (with valve closed) and getting the mid lift, I need to have longer rocker studs. What am I doing wrong?
I have a Chevy 01 cavalier 2.2. 134l that I have built for oval track and would like to put roller rockers on but have no idea what components to use I would have to tap the head for studs. I believe the ratio is 1.5 stock camshaft with hydraulic lifters. It has pedestal mount rockers now but the bolts are very light duty and I am running 6500# valve springs. Just rotating the motor broke one of the studs off. I believe they have to be self aligning rockers. I seen this motor with roller rockers so I know it can be done I just don't know what parts I need to accomplish what I want to do, any help would be greatly appreciated,thx
Are high quality roller rocker arms best for all automotive gasoline piston/cylinder engines (from the humble little 4 banger all the way up to those monster V-12's and beyond)? If not, couldyou cite examples of where would rollers work best?
Needing to find pushrod length for my build, the cam I installed has different lift for intake and exhaust so for proper geometry I should run different length pushrods?
The proper method isn't primarily a "BULLSEYE" center stem pattern, but the minimum RA from/back ARC swing movement. That will translate to the most full transfer to linear vlv movement.
go to lowes and get a laser that shoots the + dual lines and use that to check the 90 degrees, much better than a sharpie, on line on the valve stem, one line for the rocker
You are a genius. What is that guage that's measuring how far down the spring is going called? I should get one of those and try this method. I'm using pedastal non adjustable rockers though, but I'm assuming I could accomplish the same thing with shims? I don't know....I'm just trying to do a GT40P head swap on my mustang with an explorer intake and custom cam. Nothing too major, but I want to do it right the first time.
this is BY FAR the best video I've seen. but I have a question since I'm learning. do you not need some softer springs to do this?? I've seen it on some other videos and hears it before. thanks keep it coming !!
You don't need soft springs. In fact, you don't need to compress the springs at all. That's one of the real benefits of this method, is you can do it in the car without turning the motor over. Just make sure the lifter is o the base circle, get your initial 90* relationship and it's just math from there.
Although it helps in aiding longevity to the checker tool and the amount of re-uses it will give if the checker tool is of good quality you can compress a single spring w/damper without removing them to test.. I do the check with the regular pushrod I have on hand and a dial indicator..I get the valve to half lift and see how much it takes to get the fulcrum to roller tip centerline to 90* with the valve subtract the two and thats how much longer of a pushrod I'll need and vice versa.......Been doing it that way over 35yrs. and never a problem..
Irs probably a solid roller You do it one if two ways You either buy a solid lifter and use you regular springs or you buy checking springs and use the exact lifter youre gonna use If you use regular springs then yes you would be right about not truning it over if it has a hydralic lifter
I had an engine built 20 years ago. The pushrods were too long and the rocker rolled off the edge of the valve tip and ruined the valves . Now I know how to find the right pushrod length but what about the lash? Doesnt that change the geometry? I'm running a hydraulic roller. 0 lash then a half turn preload is my understanding. Is it that the lash won't make enough of a difference to throw the geometry off? I had a head gasket problem. Can this be caused by the incomplete lift of the valves and getting a lean condition that blew the head gasket. It's a 347 vortec V1 s trim with ported first gen twist wedge.
I have an idea... once you have your first line. There should be some kind of simple math that would allow you to calculate the angle to make a 90° at full closed. I'm sure it would change depending on cam lift :/ If that is possible though. all you would need is one of those cheap angle finders and mark your closed line off of the smooth edge of some masking tape. Then use the smooth edge of the tape as the line in the video and not even need to make a mark on the rocker.
He's looking at the valve stem vs the line he drew on the rocker If you look at it theyre 90 degrees to each other and the roller ia centered over the top of the vakve stem
@@19jody72 do you have a checking pushrod? The comp cams magnum ones are the ones most people use because its marked with measurements so you know exactly what size it is
You can put a washer or two under the stud just for measuring purposes. If the stud is too short for the initial 90* setting, it usually means you need longer studs.
@@serracon Hello Sr.! I was wondering if I could ask you a question. My camshaft is .520 .544 do I make the math from .544 lift? So half lift would be .272? Thank you in advance and thanks for the video.
Good video but you drew the wrong line on your rocker arm. The line of action is from the rocker pivot to the roller contact point, not the roller center. The valve only cares about what contacts it, the roller OD.
Good lesson but that $13 tool they make now takes all that work away lol just set it on in place of the rocker and bring pushrod checker up to it and there u go
Those are worthless, different lift cams will need different pushrods on a stud mount setup to achieve 90 degrees at half lift. A shaft rocker setup will need the shaft height set so the rocker is 90 degrees to the valve at half lift.
@@jeffreydurham5342 yeah theres a guy on here who builds racing engines shows that and drawing a centerline through the rocker tip and the roller fulcrum with a sharpie and setting it at 90 then going back and checking it with the method here. If they match its a go
you need to point out this procedure is at the base of the cam lobe, you also need to point out this includes the head gasket and head is torqued to spec.
Thanks for that! I'm glad you showed how to do this without checker springs, and just using the actual valve springs. Well explained Sir.
The real springs require a solid lifter and then lash calculation.
Hydraulic lifters will be compressed by the heavy spring and give you a too long pushrod.
This is the best/ easiest to follow video on rocker arm geometry I have seen yet! Great explanation! Thanks for taking the time to make the video.
Trick is that you can change the pushrod length and alter the intensity of cam lift... the rate that the valve comes off the seat and gets to every lift point sooner, though you might give up a little total lift for increased area under the curve.
Great Video, Thanks for taking the time to put this out there... not to much info on this topic. Huge Thanks from New Zealand.
I believe you are wrong, Where the roller touches the valve stem is where the line should be drawn to (but you can't) Don't believe me? Draw a right angle on a piece of paper, place the Rocker's Trunnion center on the Horizontal line with the Roller tip on the Vertical line at a 45. Sweep the rocker through the arc (I place a small white dot on the side of the roller tip) and see where arc is and you'll notice it is on the Tip of the roller is where the true center of the fulcrum should be. Kind of makes sense it would be at the tip eh?. (at least for my roller rocker)
The roller rolls and actually is in effect an extension of the valve stem. Therefore the actual pivot line IS the center of the tip roller.
The video is correct in that.
I have a set of older TFS twisted wedge heads on my Corvette. They require different rockers and pushrods for intake and exhaust. The sharpie marker method is exactly what I used to get it right. Good advice and great video explanation.
The width of the mark on the valve stem is dependent on the cam lift.
Higher lift equals wider line.
very very important part of building that the average everyday person dont know about. thank you sir for this very detailed set up video.
If you have no idea of the camshaft specs , how do you measure the lift? Do you measure the travel of the valve spring?
SIR WITH ALL DUE RESPECT IT'S NOT
TRINYN ITS LIKE ONION
TRUNYUN TRUYON
LIKE ONION ALL THE BEST AND THANX FOR YOUR EXPLANATION ON ANGLES 👍👍😉
I'm trying you're method but i have Howard's link bar lifters(ford 289)
When you spin the motor to check 45 degrees angle at half lift my plunjer in the hydraulic lifter will collapse .also when checking valve tip mark. Doesn't it give you a false reading? Thanks
I learned something today to back up my method !😊
I did mine with the mid lift method, but the roller is out on the exhaust side closer to the edge. It's a sbc with a hydraulic roller and + .100" valves. If I put the sweep in the center, the patern is about .125" wide. With it out about 3/4 of the way out, it's only around .050" wide. I haven't fired it up yet, but I'm thinking of putting lash caps on it just to be safe. Got any advice? Scorpion 1.5 rockers btw.
I tried using this method, but in order to establish the 90 degree angle (with valve closed) and getting the mid lift, I need to have longer rocker studs. What am I doing wrong?
I have a Chevy 01 cavalier 2.2. 134l that I have built for oval track and would like to put roller rockers on but have no idea what components to use I would have to tap the head for studs. I believe the ratio is 1.5 stock camshaft with hydraulic lifters. It has pedestal mount rockers now but the bolts are very light duty and I am running 6500# valve springs. Just rotating the motor broke one of the studs off. I believe they have to be self aligning rockers. I seen this motor with roller rockers so I know it can be done I just don't know what parts I need to accomplish what I want to do, any help would be greatly appreciated,thx
Looks right to me, i learned the same procedure many moons ago, it works every time,👍🏻💯
What do you do when you try this method and don't have enough threads sticking through the pivot shaft to even begin to thread on the nut?
This was Very good explanation, thank you.
I do plan to incorporate this method in my procedure on my engine !
Very well done!
I learned something here and will now always have it.
When working with a hydraulic lifter is it still necessary to use a solid lifter for this method?
Excellent method
Are high quality roller rocker arms best for all automotive gasoline piston/cylinder engines (from the humble little 4 banger all the way up to those monster V-12's and beyond)? If not, couldyou cite examples of where would rollers work best?
You want the best?
Shaft mounted rockers
Be prepared to pay $$$ like 800 plus for the nicer ones or more
Needing to find pushrod length for my build, the cam I installed has different lift for intake and exhaust so for proper geometry I should run different length pushrods?
The proper method isn't primarily a "BULLSEYE" center stem pattern, but the minimum RA from/back ARC swing movement.
That will translate to the most full transfer to linear vlv movement.
go to lowes and get a laser that shoots the + dual lines and use that to check the 90 degrees, much better than a sharpie, on line on the valve stem, one line for the rocker
Thanks mate that was the best and easiest way l've ever seen ,you basically can't stuff it up .thanks heaps .Mark in Australia 😊😊😊
That was great info helped me out alot. All my questions are answerd
The caps lock and exclamation point make me very excited about this
Is rocker arm ratio the same as mechanical advantage? If no, how are they different?
Who is the best engine builder in the world who taught you this just asking
Really a good explanation 🌹
All good info, where can I get a mag base like yours? Mine won't stay put on my aluminum head like yours does.
Got sum guerrilia gloo, bro!
You are a genius. What is that guage that's measuring how far down the spring is going called? I should get one of those and try this method. I'm using pedastal non adjustable rockers though, but I'm assuming I could accomplish the same thing with shims? I don't know....I'm just trying to do a GT40P head swap on my mustang with an explorer intake and custom cam. Nothing too major, but I want to do it right the first time.
Ryan Winkelman it's a dial indicator
You didn't mention if this was solid or hyd roller. Nor sis you subtract for the lash or have a light spring for hyd setups. Pooor t best.
Doesn't look centered to me in this video
this is BY FAR the best video I've seen. but I have a question since I'm learning. do you not need some softer springs to do this?? I've seen it on some other videos and hears it before. thanks keep it coming !!
You don't need soft springs. In fact, you don't need to compress the springs at all. That's one of the real benefits of this method, is you can do it in the car without turning the motor over. Just make sure the lifter is o the base circle, get your initial 90* relationship and it's just math from there.
@@scottfoxwell9112 had a couple questions after seeing your video on this was wondering if you could answer them?
Although it helps in aiding longevity to the checker tool and the amount of re-uses it will give if the checker tool is of good quality you can compress a single spring w/damper without removing them to test..
I do the check with the regular pushrod I have on hand and a dial indicator..I get the valve to half lift and see how much it takes to get the fulcrum to roller tip centerline to 90* with the valve subtract the two and thats how much longer of a pushrod I'll need and vice versa.......Been doing it that way over 35yrs. and never a problem..
Great video! Thank you very much for making it
GREAT VIDEO , TWO THUMBS UP
Thought it wasnt advisable to turn the engine over with pr checker installed.
Irs probably a solid roller
You do it one if two ways
You either buy a solid lifter and use you regular springs or you buy checking springs and use the exact lifter youre gonna use
If you use regular springs then yes you would be right about not truning it over if it has a hydralic lifter
That was a high quality checker. One of the cheap ones would have failed.
Bro nice vid, love the powerfist dial indicator, I have the same one it must be a Canadian thing :)
Hey thanks for a great and informative clip! I will be looking for more.....
I had an engine built 20 years ago. The pushrods were too long and the rocker rolled off the edge of the valve tip and ruined the valves . Now I know how to find the right pushrod length but what about the lash? Doesnt that change the geometry? I'm running a hydraulic roller. 0 lash then a half turn preload is my understanding. Is it that the lash won't make enough of a difference to throw the geometry off? I had a head gasket problem. Can this be caused by the incomplete lift of the valves and getting a lean condition that blew the head gasket. It's a 347 vortec V1 s trim with ported first gen twist wedge.
good video, But I have both 1.5 & 1.6 rockers, where & how do I plug the math into the equation ? Or does 1/2 @ 90 still apply?
1/2 @ 90°, regardless of rocker ratio.
250 thou, plus a little bit?? Yeah, sounds pretty precise.
I have an idea... once you have your first line. There should be some kind of simple math that would allow you to calculate the angle to make a 90° at full closed. I'm sure it would change depending on cam lift :/
If that is possible though. all you would need is one of those cheap angle finders and mark your closed line off of the smooth edge of some masking tape. Then use the smooth edge of the tape as the line in the video and not even need to make a mark on the rocker.
Sweet thanks for the help. I have a 8.1 I'm working on
Very helpful!
I take this measurement was done with the cam lobe on its base circle ?
don't seem to be enough threads on that nut/bolt to hold it 5 turns and that's it dang the nut will come off half way down the track
How do you determine that is a 90*?
He's looking at the valve stem vs the line he drew on the rocker
If you look at it theyre 90 degrees to each other and the roller ia centered over the top of the vakve stem
@@KingJT80 fixing to try to get the right measurements on my trick flow headed 302 with polly locks.. any good suggestions to try?
@@19jody72 do you have a checking pushrod? The comp cams magnum ones are the ones most people use because its marked with measurements so you know exactly what size it is
@@KingJT80 yes..i ordered one
@@19jody72 sounds like youre on your way
Interesting
Good job. Thank you.
Thanks for the info
Thank You Sir!
Looks good!!
Very good methodology tho
great method, but clearly not at 90*.
and the dial indicator is not parallel to the valve.
@@nitrousshovelhead I notice the same thing but I think he was focusing more on the method then being precise either way nice method.
@threeaxis359 but every home youtube engine builder is gonna do this way. Rewind play Rewind play. Damnit
This method is great unless your rocker stud is too short to achieve the first 90° setting.
You can put a washer or two under the stud just for measuring purposes. If the stud is too short for the initial 90* setting, it usually means you need longer studs.
Thx
570 lift 285000 everyone knows where you determine those numbers from! Right
Ti retainers. Great investment.
I see you bought the optional aluminum magnet for your dial indicator
good
Must be solid lifters?
Jon H yes i was using solid lifter but the principle still will work with hydraulic
half lift 90 degrees is what you should target
@@serracon Hello Sr.! I was wondering if I could ask you a question. My camshaft is .520 .544 do I make the math from .544 lift? So half lift would be .272? Thank you in advance and thanks for the video.
@@MrElPoderozo1 To be accurate, you should calculate them separately
Good video but you drew the wrong line on your rocker arm. The line of action is from the rocker pivot to the roller contact point, not the roller center. The valve only cares about what contacts it, the roller OD.
Good lesson but that $13 tool they make now takes all that work away lol just set it on in place of the rocker and bring pushrod checker up to it and there u go
for Chevy but ford they dont make one
Those are worthless, different lift cams will need different pushrods on a stud mount setup to achieve 90 degrees at half lift. A shaft rocker setup will need the shaft height set so the rocker is 90 degrees to the valve at half lift.
@@jeffreydurham5342 yeah theres a guy on here who builds racing engines shows that and drawing a centerline through the rocker tip and the roller fulcrum with a sharpie and setting it at 90 then going back and checking it with the method here. If they match its a go
Good info.
I tried this method on a 302, pedestal mount rockers. ,no.way this worked , nor even close to being a 90
Pedestal mount rockers are non adjustable rockers so no it wouldn't work youre using shins for those
@@KingJT80 thanks for the info