How to: Fix Oscillations | I-term Tuning
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- Опубликовано: 21 ноя 2020
- In this one we review how the PID loop works in the chain of effet from i. to P. to D. terms (in that order) for which terms dampen oscillation for the preceeding term. Ultimately the D-term is the ultimate dampening stop gap in the I.P.D. loop, HOWEVER for dampen i-Term oscillation you need to increase P and D gains (together) or of course you can simply decrease i-Term gains.
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1. we start with i=85/90 and P=5 --> it freaks out
2. we lower i=40; with P=5 remaining --> it flies but wobble city
3. we raise P=30 with i=40 --> wobbles are gone
4. finally, we have he full tune with i-terms back up at 85/90, higher P-terms for even better performance, and raised D-gain now to control the oscillation of the higher P-gains.
Note: P and D together need to be as high as they can be for the best prop wash performance.
You can remember this as “I need to P” 😂
Or I pee daily 🤣👍✌
I need to P, Dammn
I need to Pee, Dude
That’s a great way of thinking about it. It’s very common for people to see any oscillation and immediately go to D. This should clarify what’s really needed. Would be nice to have a graphic here of the error and oscillation difference for I vs P. I oscillation is usually
I keep coming back to this video every time I try to tune by feel. I think this is the single greatest video for explaining what's happening to a quad that's out of tune and what it will do and what to do to fix it.
great video, frame swapped a cetus pro and had problems, your video helped me tune them right out, thanks for sharing
Completely reconceptualized tuning for me. Thank you
Great explanation, a very simple way to remember and apply for best tuning, thanks for sharing
Great video with examples that made it so clear. I also appreciated you reverse orientation when spelling out PID. l can’t wait to watch more.
wow, i think one of the best PID explanation videos 👍🏻
I really like your explanation, a new way to think of it... I tended not to think of I-term as a source of oscillation but I totally see it in your example.
That was extremely helpful just like the rest of your content, great job!
Thanks for all you do for the FPV community!!
I really appreciate your videos. I’ve watch almost all tuning, and black box videos at least a dozen times and am slowly grasping it all. Thanks to you, I’ve been recognized on multiple occasions as a top tuner😁
Thank you again, I look forward to more tuning and black box tips as firmware updates continue to release. 🙏
BlippyFPV
This tutorial saved me!
I had terrible wobble on my Betafpv 95x v3. New FC, props didn't help until I have changed the pids. Thanks UAV Tech!
Good tuning tips Mark, thanks a lot!
Bro that 7 inch preset worked perfect. Thank you so much
now that's much easier to grasp , great stuff dude
I’m not even 3 minutes into your video & I already know I’m going to watch it like 10 times.
I get a better understanding that way 👍👍👍👍👍👍👌Great idea setting the quad PID’s off like that. We can actually see what the PI& D are doing!!!!!! 👌👌👌👌👌👌😋😋👌
Love this! Please do more videos like this!
Great stuff. Very educational. Thanks for sharing.
You explain this the best thanks for doing these vids!
When I first got into this hobby it was PIDs. I like your explanation better. I will try this. IPD.
Thanks for this video. Made tuning so much easier and faster. All quads locked in now! LOL
Hell yeah im just starting to try tuning and this helped me out so much thank you dude
Love this explanation.
Pretty interesting, Mark! Thanks a lot! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Great explanation! Thanks very much for this! 🙂
Big thank you 👍🏻
iPD
As usual best explanation ever :)
This was great! thanks a lot man
Big thanks! Subscribed 😉
Great work!
Your content ist master class. Video by video.
Thank you, excellent info.
brilliant video thanks
Excellent video, helped me tune my wobbles so much it cannot fly quad into a smooth machine in only three battery packs.
big help as usual....also like the outro music
Really usefull video thanks for sharing this ! Also subbed 😉
What would the FPV world be like with out you?! Cheers Mark! You keep us all in the air.
Interesting.. definetly I'll try this concept of tuning.. :)
Makes me want to tune my rtf quad lol....I have alot of propwash that I want to get rid of this was very informative 👌 ✌
This is definitely more critical on 3" super light quads. I just spent a couple hours tuning. Betaflight 4.2.4 pids where way too much for my 6s 3". Another excellent informative video. Thanks Mark!
Thanks for sharing!
@@uavtech your the best, im going to become a patron. You always help me no matter the question. I would love to give back. Always appreciated.
Thank you for linking this video for me in the Ciotti stream. Going to give this a try tomorrow, let you know how it goes.
If it still wobbles, let me know. Maybe log it? Does it have logging?
No Blackbox unfortunately. It's an Iflight Sussex f4 1s whoop board, mob6 19k motors, crs fire, it's a little porky at 27gr dry. But the I term is at 100 across the board right now, going to drop it to 90 and try again. After I get some batteries charged.
Thank you again. This video helped get my quad flying much much better, still not prefect but a little more tuning should do the trick.
Hi just what I needed but need to repair my FC first. Need to resolder my battery cables 🤦🏻♂️
When I’m ready, I’ll study this.
Take care & happy fly’n 🤓😉😘
I love the explanation at the beginning with the letters. Like Sesame Street for drone people.
I just tried your preset on my 5" and I am blown away bro. I thought I was pretty good at tuning. I live the cli commands. Only thing I did different was my stick response slider. Yours is way up their. Lol 😂 thank you so much bro I'm going to buy you a beer right now
That's awesome, where did you get the preset from? I need to try this!
@@look2christ777 here's a link to the presets. Remember only do bh the filter settings if you have a 32bit esc and turn on bidirectional dshot
theuavtech.com/presets/
Thank you very much and as always a very clear explanation. Would be nice to see how to tune for I-term
check out Patreon video.
I should try this.. thankss
holy f*ck thankyou so much, i could never understand this stuff and you just made it so easy for me and saved me breaking my quad
This is the video I needed lol
Nice vid... thx you got new sub
Thank you!
Thank you so much for this one.
disclaimer: I am new to building drones. Also, I don't think I understand PID controller all that well.
I've been struggling to get my Quad to fly. Been through a lot of documents and videos. My drone would wobble so much that I couldn't really make it fly/hover.
This video has been a turning point for me, where I am now able to fly the drone vs not at all!
So happy that I am now able to fly the drone.
Awesome!!
Check out: theuavtech.com/presets and theuavtech.com/tuning as well. :-)
Thank you.
I'm a plane guy but this was very interesting for me too! I wish you would work as a INAV Dev and fix their autotune :) keep it up!
Really great video ,the first flight reminded me of my first quad(it flew like a cow!) and teaching myself how to tune.😃
Betaflight defaults are so good now I really struggle to notice that much of a difference in adjustments.
I tend to get to a point were it's ok for me and fly it ,probably just compensate without realising?
That's a sub. Thx.
Transtec laser HD :-) Love Transtec Laser frames! Great quality carbon, not really T700, but still amazing! (be aware - motor mounts are too week, use 4 screws there if you want to bush it). Only issue is props in view.
Surprised how well it flue with D term 5!!
Wow! Thank you for sharing. Learn new ideas to tune kwads.
The best PID explained video ever!!!
thanx
6:29 HOLYY!!! I want that!! T_T
Finaly !!!
Nice one! I use to tune the I alone by checking the quads reaction when going straight and punching the throttle. If a have a nose up in the punch i add I in pitch, if i have some angle taken in the roll axis i raise the I in roll. Usually this ends up in relatively high I values of about 80-90 ( the time that my P and D is arround 35-50). Should i try lowering at steps the I and see what happens?
Great tutorial! Many thanks! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Is there a video about "I-Term rotation"?
I think it talk about it in this one, ruclips.net/video/-27DlWxDVuM/видео.html
@@uavtech thanks! I will have a look 👀
Integral (delayed response) P (proportional [to the error] response) derivative (quick response)
they must be adjusted to fit the inertial mass in order to be fast but not oscillate and to correct also the minimum difference with respect to the aim.
Yup.
Great explanation thanks, I’ve got low throttle oscillations, on a 3” what advice for adjusting pids to help with that? Tbanks
Reduce ESC PWM and/or i-Gain.
nice approach i am gonna test it out, will it work as well even on emuflight?
Of course. Emu is 99% Betaflight.
Great video thank you for this. Is it the same protocol for fixed wing?
yes
I will try this method instead of the traditionnal "PID" method. I tried many settings on my heewing f01 but there is still some wobbling following the pitch axis.
wobbles. Reduce I-term in relation to P.
Watching ur videos all over. I got a drone (lightweight 5" long range low power) I went to iNAV and not wont fly on 6S. at first couldnt even hover bad fast oscillation. Lowered everything to default and not my BF tune i put into iNAV. I upped gyro filtering too. I have no vibrations it looks like. But at higher throttle going up it oscillates bad. Fast oscillations like it feels like it wants to run away. been slowly raising D term now.
BF PIDS were like P58 I87 D42
INAV started at BF then went to Default P40 I30 D23. Increased D to 30. it helped a lil. Now increased to 40. see if it helps. Hoping I can get this flying good in iNAV want to use it for long range in TN. Roadtrip from NY to Tn just to fly this drone long range lol. It did fly fine in beginning on 4S. Havent tried again
Wish you lived near by. Pay you to fix it lol
actually reading description ur only hour and a half from me. Im in Wappingers falls NY
Sounds like noise issue. Join the Patreon and throw up a log.on with raw noise recorded (debug = Gyro_Scaled in BF or Gyro in iNAV) and we can take a look. HD or DVR helps too.
@@uavtech I got it flying good for awhile. But giving me issue again lol. Think it's just battery too big and vibrates a lil at times.
Thank you! I have always wondered, why is there no slider for the I term only? Also, where did you get the go pro mount for your frame?
Brain3d has all tge mounts
There kind of is between the Master and P and D Gain slider.
Brain3D: www.brain3d.co/collections/gopro-mounts-gopro-protection/products/adjustable-angle-universal-gopro-session-mount?variant=25919723344
@@uavtech awesome, thanks! Love the Laser HD frame.
I just got a Transtec Beetle 2.5” with air unit and it came with stock BF 4.2 pids. It’s a heavier 2.5” and has a lot of jello even in a hover. What pids do you think I should adjust? I set up RPM filtering and I have the filters all the way to 2.0 but that did not help the Jell-O at all.
Hello. I recently bought a Crux35 v2 crazyf411 20a aio elrs uart and od mid high throttle manouvers it has this inefficent brrrr oscillations. That one hasnt got a blackbox. Im a beginner. What can I do?
If you watch the tips of the props, they bounce when he punches throttle.
Yup, blade tips always move around in flight.
Sorry if this is already asked: What frame is that? Also great video as always :) :)
TransTEK Lazer. Thanks!!
Hello, I am new to your channel as recommended by Joshua bardwell amongst other flyers.. I have built several quads since I started fpv back in august of this year and so far, everything but two seem to fly pretty good, but I know there’s room for improvement.. I haven’t been too worried about since I’m still learning to fly better, however, my repertoire of quads is growing and none of them have more than a stock tune.. like I mentioned before, two of my quads, actually 3, have some tuning issues that need to be worked out and I would also like to learn to tune the others beyond a stock tune.. I see that you seem to have a plethora of tuning videos, and so does bardwell, but here in lies the problem, I’m very new to the tuning aspect as in I haven’t done it yet, and every video I’ve seen so far is of much older versions of betaflight than the current that I have been using.. this only compiles the the confusion because I cannot see on my screen, what is being shown on yours or anyone else’s screens.. as a complete noob to tuning, is there a video you would recommend to watch first..? I have read an article by Oscar liang to get familiar with PID, and I’ve watched a handful of videos, but like I said, everything thus far, is from older versions than what is out now.. I’m still trying to understand PID and filtering, not to mention black box.. lol.. please help..! I actually started to try tuning one of my recent builds yesterday but stopped where I was at, because I have no idea what im doing and before I go any further with it, I want to have a better understanding.. please and thank you..!
Hi and welcome! Everything to get you started is at. For quick set Presets, check out that page. For tuning, check out theuavtech.com/tuning
@@uavtech is this the same guide I saw you use in some of your videos you were tuning the 6s quad that someone sent you..? It looks like, just confirming..
@@squirrelyfpv7283 yup.
i need help on tuning my 2s 4" quad. it is little bit overweight but flies stable. when i try to record the flight, i continuously experience wobble on pitch axis. it acts like it is driving on a bumpy road. what ever i do, even changing controller, wobble is always there. since camera has no EIS, it reflects all small amplitutde slow oscillations on video clips. i adjusted, pids with patience with hours of trying, , i adjusted filters, blackbox is almost vibration free, fc is on soft mounts etc. i am using old PWM esc board from aeesparrow square drone. This dron is actually a wifi drone but i converted it to fly with my own transmitter and a proper f4 controller. its original version was almost vibration free indoors ( with its primitive controller). what could be the reason?
My two Chim7's when cruising strait have pretty fast but small L&R wiggle ! I got to to try sliding something ! oh dear!
Would you do a tuning video for a 12s Xclass rig spinning 13" props? (filters, PIDs, etc).
I don't have one. It is same process as 5" thru 10" i reckon. But outcome may be different.
Thanks for the info of this, still learning. So if Im on the right track, I have micro jitters, and to solve this, I would increase the D term? Tricky stuff for beginners.
Ummmm probably not. D-term dampens for big movements, but also adds jitters and noise to the commands for.vibrations.
What do you mean by "micro jitters"? Little shakes while flying straight?
@@uavtech Ah OK, I'm not understanding then. Yeah, it seems there's micro jitters turning and banking. Doesn't seem to happen all the time. Flying straight and doing small movements seem fine, when it's something bigger, coming out of a shot suddenly seems to be shaking. Any thoughts?
Simply prop wash? If the motors are pushing into dirty air, it is turbulent.
Check out this video: ruclips.net/video/sdfVoUyXRMU/видео.html
@@uavtech I'll check it out, possibility, but its happened when prop wash shouldn't be a thing. I'll have to keep checking. Thanks for your help so far. 🤙🏼
So for each quad size, can it have same I gain value.. Or bigger/smaller quad will have lower/higer I value? Based on what? Power to weight ratio or just the AUW of the quad..
I has a wide window. The best way I know how to tune it is you want it strong enough that I-term doesn't wind up a bunch on any given axis in flight to compensate for a low gain. For that, I look at the logs.
ive seen it stated that P and D are for "high"-frequency errors and I is for low. I have been able to eliminate wiggles in my large 55 lb drone by merely adjusting I term. tradeoff seems to be steady state error (pitch in my case) vs wiggles, but this error is still acceptable. of course what makes frequencies "high" or "low" is dependent on your setup...
it is always D > P > i
in relation to oscillation control high to low. Also check out the video at theuavtech.com/tuning
The Key Relationships you need to know.
@@uavtech thanks!
Hi...thank you for this
Newb question...how do you know where to start?
If I build a quad and the FC has the latest firmware does that flash include a 'stock' PID tuning to work from?
If not, what values would I enter to start the tune from?
Stock should be ok. You can hone in a little further then on theuavtech.com/presets and if you want to eventually tune, check out theuavtech.com/tuning
@@uavtech Thank you.
I dream of a day where there will be a comprehensive book or class.. or something out there that can piece together all the knowledge from all these videos and make tuning something that's at least approachable for people that have no idea what they're doing and just getting into Betalight. I don't know if there's that much money to be made from such a thing but man would it not only help me but so many other people I know that absolutely want to get into this hobby but are absolutely deathly scared from the topic of "tuning".
Look no more: theuactech.com/tuning
As a beginner, just.use theuavtech.com/presets
@@uavtech Cheers, Mark!
Dont get the whole PID-thingy (yet) but at least I know who can teach it
Hello. I just built my first dji tinywhoop. I just want to ask why it wobbles when i fly close to the ground like 3-5nches distance? Can the PID fix it or is it ground effect? Thank you.
It is probably ground effect. Yes, PIDs can make this better. Apply my Whoop preset tiny.cc/presets
I don't understand but convinced.
See theuavtech.com/tuning
@@uavtech Thanks for the insanely large homework!😎
Just check out the 2-pack tuning video.
Or see theuavtech.com/presets
@@uavtech You're so kind! You were an eternal mystery to me..I'll do my best to figure it out!
Doesn't that mean the the whole methodology of going for PD-Balance first and then introducing I-term is flawed from the get go? I did a tune where I started from 250 Iterm, as i really like the locked in feel, and ended up with a much much lower D-gain than usually yet feels very much on point. How would you about the tuning steps given this insight?
Do you have any advice on how a 9” quad I.P.Ds should change compare to a 5”? What would you expect, and I will lower my rates too. But they aren’t that high, 600 ish
See my preset theuavtech.com/presets
does a perfect tuning with the black box increase or decrease the flight time? I noticed that by increasing the PID a lot I have a greater absorption from the battery and the drone tends to have much less strength and is woody.
Probably wrong tuning and bad tracking of setpoint increase corrections and reduce battery in short time?.
Probably wrong tuning and bad tracking of setpoint increase corrections and consume battery in short time?
Likely reducing because it makes the motors work harder to keep things perfectly following the sticks (less wash, wobble, going off course).
So I have had a really bad oscillation problem on my new 10" drone, I have tried adjusting the I term and P term and no matter what combination of numbers I do it still slowly oscillates and gets worse until I end up crashing it, any ideas what could cause it?
If it is a slow wobble, it is too high of i-Term to P-term. You can drop i-Term to 0 to see if it persists. The other thing could be Motor Saturation. Are you using 24Khz PWM and how big are the motors? 10" props are a lot to spin up/down. If you need more help, jump on my discord and tag me. Logging it would be good.
What would cause P, and I fast ossilations on yaw? I'm dealing with this on one quad, and I just cannot seam to get it to go away, no matter what I do with p(45)and i(80) ff120, since there is no D on yaw.
Yaw is too slow for D, but you can add some if you like. Lower Pi on Yaw if you have oscillations.
i still get mid throttle oscillation after RPM filtering bf 4.2 . What should I start twitching around ?
Try 48k pwm with RPM enabled and Dyn Notch max of 600hz.
@@uavtech in blheli suite ????
@@DronemanfromNepal yup.
@@uavtech thnx man !!! now where to enable dyn notch to 600 hz . thnx again
@@DronemanfromNepal in Filters Tab. At bottom left. Set min to 125 and Max to 600.
What setup is that quad? Looks really compact and clean!!
It is the DJI quad: store.dji.com/product/dji-digital-fpv-system?vid=83421
You can get all the components separately and build yourself. You don't need to get from DJI's store. They just have it there for folks first buying the FPV system to pick up a quad as well.
Watching this and the 10 inch patreon video really displays that moment of inertia. The 10 rolled fast and stopped fast but you could see it was working to stop. This 5 inch just stops.
I was getting some wobbles everytime I throttle up passed 50%, I drive myself nuts trying to fix it on BF, gave up, tried EMU flight and it's now gone, but what would cause that sort of wobble during a quick punch out?
Gains too high or needed more filtering.
Is this order of thinking only appropriate to certain system responses or general in nature?
General. This is just how it works for anything controlled by a PID loop.
wich flight controller u are using???
All different ones.
@@uavtech i am using omnibus f4 v3s
Its make me crazy its oscillate just when i landing the quad. (low throttle)
Can i get a bit rid of propwash at my quad its a betafpv v3.. I feel it has really a lot of..
Raise P and D Gain slider.
Trying to tune out a persistent low throttle cruise wobble on my 7”. Help?
lower i-Term. Make sure ESC PWM setting is 24khz if you can. If you ESC only goes down to 48khz, set it to that.
Do you have suggestions for videos to start with? I get tripped up since beta flight keeps changing. It’s hard to tell what’s relevant to learn, and what isn’t. I hope that makes sense.
TY.
PID tuning is a.constant. check out theuavtech.com/tuning
@@uavtech I’m reading now. TYVM!
with bigger quads, 8" and above. should I start at I=40? or just go higher?
depends on your P and D gain slider. Default i-Terms seem to be pretty good for then finding a resonsible P and D Gain strenght for a variatiy of quads. However, if folks are having slow oscillation, move up the P & D Gain slider. If you can't anymore becuase, you get D-term oscillation, move down the Master some. Everything is in ration to something else. Hopefully that makes sense.
my fault not being too clear here. I was referring to the video segment where you start at I=40 with P&D both zero.
but I think this would be the best/clear way of PID tuning a quad. thanks! 👍