1:21:37 Brother Joel says "The gospel doesn't have a power to ontologicaly change anybody". However Romans 1:16 says "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel because IT IS the Power of God unto Salvation to everyone that believes".
those who believe. Belief comes from regeneration. Belief is a response to the miraculous drawing of the Father through the Spirit. 😊 (Belief is 100% the individual, but it is the fruit of God's WORK.) Therefore God gets all the glory.
@@Called_Out_Ones Yes, but there are those the father did not draw… ”No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.“ John 6:44 NASB1995
I think he misspoke, because this is the entire point of Calvinism. When God pursues a man, they are saved always. God never fails, and will never lose that person. If you are trusting in Christ according to Calvinism, God loves you infinitely and will never let you go. He will finish that work
Anytime a Pastor has to say "Jesus isn't helpful here." it's a clear indicator that something is dreadfully wrong with his theology. Thus he and his congregation is in need of help.
Tells me there is something dreadfully wrong with his so called "faith". Calvinists believe in a false Gospel, false God and false Jesus... how can they be saved? They are victims, but they need to understand that what they believe in is NOT Christianity. It is Manichaean Gnosticism Christianized.
@@learn-about-God spouting and parroting the same Flowerist nonsense ? Jesus saves sinners. He seeks and saves those whom He wills to seek and save . The semi-Pelagians have always sought to puff man up and to marginalize God's work in His creation . Their motto will always be : to man be the glory .
@@timothykring4772 Tim... I'm not parroting anyone but Scripture itself. You do realize that Calvinism is the most man-centered theology that exists? "God chose me", "I'm a chosen one, out of many who were not", etc. --- You have ZERO passages in Scripture that you believe that says Jesus died for you! You reject all passages that Scripture says Jesus tasted death for every man... so you don't actually know if Jesus died for you! You have to rely on YOUR own experiences and YOUR own works to have a guess that you are one of the gnostically "elect". No Calvinist has assurance that Jesus died for them in Scripture, because you reject the Gospel for a substitute (Calvinism). If you don't believe that Jesus Christ tasted death for every man, then you are not a Christian. Also, stop using terms that you actually don't know, like "Semi-Pelagian"... did you know that Pelagius didn't even believe what Augustine said about him? Augustine lied to make him look bad. We know this because we now have writings of Pelagius. Pelagius wasn't a "Pleagian" as ignorant Calvinists define it as. You need to stop following after your Calvinist Gurus "The great men of the faith" and start following Jesus Christ. Read Scripture and actually believe what it says. Stop using outside sources to tell you what to believe. That is your major flaw. Actually uphold to your 5 Solas, instead of pretending you do while you do the exact opposite... then you wouldn't be a Calvinist.
Wow!, at 1:26:07 Leighton asks a question about Mark 6:6, Jesus words and Jeff Webbin says, I don’t think Jesus is particularly helpful here”. That should tell you a lot.
@@TheRemnantRadio Good point. I don't think Joel was prepared to answer that question. I'd be interested to hear his best response to it. Joel had a good closing statement. The Calvinist perspective of the sovereignty of God has great emotional appeal. I think that comes at the expense, however, of the pleasure that God gets from our voluntary submission to him (Hebrews 11:6) and the attraction that God has despite the resistance of our flesh (John 3:19-21).
In regards to Colossians 2:12 the dead sinner needs circumcision of the heart to make them spiritually sensitive to God. Spiritual circumcision precedes faith
You could tell as he was reading Colossians the flowers was ready to get moved on from it because he heard all the Calvinist language. But then the Calvinist conceded as if he didn't even understand what he was reading. Flowers can't get any scholars to debate so he's got a pick some rookie?
My Jaw dropped when I heard this Q&A, especially the A: 1:25:55 Q: Why is Jesus marveling at peoples unbelief if he made them that way? It's like marveling that people can't breathe underwater. A: "I don't think Jesus was particularly helpful (to Cultvinism) here." 😯 GAME, SET & MATCH!!
Pastor Joel had a well rehearsed opener but didn't do so well after that. His rebuttal and especially the cross examination (he is stumped on Colossians 2:12) revealed his lack of experience in debating the Provisionist view.
Just watching the Derek Webb interview, where it says he was a former calvinist turned a theist, he was never a Christian, a believer in Jesus Christ to begin with. I can't believe that I am only in the beginning of this quote-unquote debate and I'm hearing it this. I'm a Believer in Jesus Christ oh, that I am a sinner and that I was on my way to hell oh, because I was born a sinner. I didn't know that Calvinism and arminianism was supposed to be a debate. I believe what the Calvinists teach or believe before I ever knew these two words. I can't believe that we are debating the Bible. The Bible is not to be debated, it is to read and learn and grow in our Christian life here on Earth. Get away from the terms arminianism and Calvinism. Read your Bible and Learn and Grow from the Bible and from praying to the Lord, to give you understanding.
@@sherrytruitt1028 It's about interpretations and understandings. Even you have your own perspective from which you draw your conclusions. That's called a hermeneutic. Both of these groups have read the Bible and have come to different conclusions. A good debate is to figure out why that is. Either group A is wrong, group B is wrong, or most likely, they are both wrong in many aspects. But no point in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Best, as iron sharpens iron, to surigically remove the cancer, but keep the healthy parts.
Great debate. In the end Flowers has it. Remember: "God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being."
15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (Romans.9:15-16) 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began (2tim.2:9) 13But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through ]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2th.2:13) Amen 🙏 These verses can't make it anymore clear. Please Give full glory to God's grace . Sovereign free grace is clearly taught in God's Word. Also scripture teaches the responsibility of man. Christ died for all. But All who are truly regenerated born again are the elect. God is all knowing, powerful and ordained everything that comes to pass from all eternity cause He is God and He evry right to have mercy on whom He pleases. Amen
But remember Mike you don’t seek God no one seeks after God all have gone astray as Paul has said. Though this verse says that they would seek God God first has to change their heart so they do seek
@@MikejMartin Well I see no evidence that people are regenerated before they come to Christ. God can draw men by his Spirit's conviction, the preaching of the Gospel, or by miracles, but in the end they decide if they will follow Christ. "No one seeks God" is a hyperbole, sometimes found in Psalms, which Paul used to show that all men are sinners, but he wasn't trying to show no one seeks God without first being regenerated, amen? God bless.
My jaw dropped when the Calvinist rebuked Jesus for "not being very helpful" during Leighton's question period. Bro, if you think for one second Jesus isn't very helpful to your doctrine it's a red flag your doctrine is wrong.
Can you imagine telling believers: actually we need to follow Calvin here, rather than Jesus? Regarding compassion for the lost, Jesus actually gets it wrong!
😆 the truth is, it is because Calvinism is obviously false... 🙄 literally if I read the Gospel to a 5 year old then told them about Calvinism they would think it is not right. It boggles my mind how an adult that is capable of a 10th grade reading comprehensive can read the Bible and still be a Calvinist.
@1:26:25 Was the moment this went south for Calvinism and Webbon. However, much respect to Webbon. He truly engaged the other side and presented his position with grace.
More like Calvinism took a nosedive. Its unfortunate that one can be so indoctrinated, that they'll even overlook the very necessity of the Messiah just to hold fast to their view.
@@pateunuchity884 What is the purpose of what you said here? You're just deflecting the weight of the above statement by presenting all kinds of scary ideas that you think your Calvinism will keep you safe from. But Calvinism not biblical and it's logically untenable. Pray that you can read His word with fresh eyes unburdened by the system you've grown so fond of.
1:21:35 for the Calvinist to essentially scoff at what the Hebrew writer says in Heb 4, is in and of itself enough to reject his doctrine. Hebrews 4:12 (NKJV) For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Following Joel's argument that coins and sheep cannot respond then neither can God, because the Kingdom is described as a pearl and a net, neither of which can respond.
So, if you are drowing and I save your life, and as a result you are my friend, does that mean you are unwilling in the relationship because I didn't give you a choice whether I was going to save you or not?
Actually, you can’t have a relationship with a dead person; therefor the Holy Spirit-without our permission- brings dry bones to life in a sovereign, decisive act of _His_ will, not ours. That’s what the Bible teaches. “Dead in your sins and trespasses” means _dead._ the Pelagian heresy is disgusting, and Flowers is a heretic in that tradition.
You guys are so silly lol. Love isn't a metaphor. Drowning is. Being dead Is. Love is literally what is going on in real life. Put your metaphors back in your playbox, let's please deal with truth and reality. We're talking about actual meaningful love. Nobody is physically dead. Nobody is literally drowning. We are literally in a mutually loving relationship. If you don't believe that, may God have mercy on your souls.
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:5-8
Joel said in his closing argument, “God is for God” that He only seeks His own glory 🤔🤔 Major contradiction to what 1 John 4:8 & 1 Corinthians 13 teaches - God is Love … And Love is Not Self Seeking … Nor does it rejoice in evil . To say that God is seeking only His glory , Is a major misrepresentation of God’s Character / Attributes and depicting Him as a Narcissist . This definitely gave me more material & preparation to defend my provisonist view.
Finally someone who can correctly (at least in parts) represent provisionism. Cudos to Joel. he's better than James white and other leading Calvinists in represnting other view correctly. Dr. Leighton did a great job as usual. I pray for the calvibist audience who is changing his view. May God help him in his journey.
Except for Joel’s opening statement was a complete purposeful misrepresentation of what Leighton believes. Done purposefully to set up a strawman so that he has something to defeat because he can’t defeat the truth Leighton actually brought to him.
At 2:03 the individual asks Bro Webbon how a person can be *ASSURED* of salvation. Piper, who is the "Go-To" for many/most Calvinists for answers says this... _"These works of faith, and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the Spirit that come by faith, are necessary for our final salvation. No holiness, no heaven (Hebrews 12:14). So, we should not speak of getting to heaven by faith alone in the same way we are justified by faith alone."_ To ME, this is a perversion of the TRUE gospel of Christ.
Answer: No. Verse: Eph 1:13 In whom ye also after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
I really don't understand how Calvinism can exist with verses like this that clearly say, in context, the way it actually works. They're so used to trading in the truth for a lie that they can't see the truth anymore :(
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 I guess Calvinism provides the neccesary Groupthink some need to stay on top in every conversation. The power to declare who is saved and not is important to them. Isn’t it ironic that this verse Eph 1:13 disproving their foundational doctrines is right smack in the middle of a chapter they claim as their own? 😊
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 Yeah... they literally have to overlook Scripture because they hold Calvinism as their highest authority. The more I learn and listen from Calvinists the more disgusted and sad I get. These people are sadly, false Christians. Manichaean Gnostics Christianized. They are in the snare of the devil. Pray for them.
One of God's Generals Dr. Charles Stanley In Touch Ministries passed into Eternity this morning. I am letting the Body of Christ know this for tribute. Dr. Charles Stanley served God unto the very end. Amazing warrior for the Lord! Rest in Peace Soldier. God is raising up many others now.
Joel's assumption that the actual raising of Lazarus by Jesus has soteriological significance on par with Jesus' PARABLES, is odd. I see this as eisegesis, not exegesis. The raising of Lazarus is to demonstrate Jesus' authority over death, a sign that He is indeed who He claims to be. It isn't a parable, and it isn't to illustrate Calvinistic soteriological assumptions.
"what man would ever seek for God?" (10:00) I'd like to know what calvinists do with Acts 17:27 that states: that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us - this sounds like man can seek for and find God
@@benjamincase1427 Why does every Calvinist not understand that Universalism is only an issue for you? You are the ones that improperly define the word "draw" like it means "irresistible grace", when nothing of the sort is even in the Bible. Draw means to attract. (It is an affectionate attraction)... a good example would be not seeing your father for several years and then you see him one day. You would be drawn to go talk to him. So, just because in John 12 when Jesus says that If He is lifted up from the earth, He will draw all men to Himself... that does not mean Universalism. It just means that all men will have the ability to come to Him through the Gospel, as preached by the Apostles.
Read The Potters Freedom by Dr. James R White and Salvation by Grace by Matthew Barrett and What is Reformed Theology? by RC Sproul. I bet you were never a true Calvinist to begin with.
@@CaseyCovenant, what a ridiculous statement, to say that he may not have been a true Calvinist to begin with. Do you realize how cult-like that sounds?
Nathan Hellrung Question, was he causally predetermined by God to be a fake Calvinist then later renounce true Calvinism? Why would God do that according to Calvinism?
@@nateperez6587, no. Leighton by his own free will chose to be a Calvinist, and based on what he has said I don't see any reason to believe he was a fake Calvinist. Why would God do what you said according to Calvinism? The only thing we can conclude is that He did it to bring Himself the most glory.
Nathan Hellrung So God chose people before the foundations of the world to reject Calvinism which according to Calvinism is the truth. Then God (according to Calvinism) has them go throughout their whole life rejecting Calvinism causing division amongst the church and making the Bible look like it contradicts itself because it says that God is not the author of sin and confusion. what type of glory does he get from that?
Collosians 2:12 evidently stumped Pastor Webbon irrecoverably. I wonder if he remains confused/unable to answer that onbvious contradiction to the Calvinist systematic.
There are two phrases from the Calvinist that I found stunning. “Jesus isn’t being very helpful here”. I hear that, as saying, “he is not cooperating with my interpretation”. Also, he said “Jesus was a good Calvinist”. Stunning.
@@ThomasCranmer1959 on the contrary. God is sovereign. His will can never be thwarted. your understanding of God is that He is the author of evil. With a Calvinistic God, who needs the devil. It’s no wonder why the system creates and supports so many atheists.
@mayorrodgers7446 You are outright lying. Your view is that God's love causes evil. Your god decided to give Adam libertarian free will, foreknowing that Adam would choose evil. So how does libertarian free will get God off the hook? Secondly, God does not need any creature. Satan is merely an instrument in God's hand. God predestined the fall of Satan from heaven and the fall of Adam in the garden of Eden. God is sovereign and His decretal will cannot be thwarted. Before the fall Adam's will was not free from God's decretal will. After the fall Adam's will was enslaved by sin.
I have no idea what your reference is in regards to Jesus. However, Jesus was fully human and limited in every way any other human is limited in His human nature. The hypostatic union means that neither of two natures is changed by the other in the hypostatic union of the divine nature and human nature.
The whole issue I have with the Calvinist explanation is that he has the Holy Spirit performing a work separate and apart from the gospel. He actually puts the gospel as a secondary means of salvation.
Not a secondary means. There is only one means and that is grace through faith. Faith may take place after regeneration but it is not another means of salvation. It is the result of having a new spirit.
@Aaron Marshall How are they antichrists? What view would you say is Biblical? Not asking to be contentious. Just curious on your perspective on the ordeal.
Exactly. Just like he hardened Pharaohs heart. Or did he ask pharaoh for permission first?🧐 Or just like he asked king Nebuchadnezzar if he could turn him into a mentally ill animal. Or just like he asked Jacob and Esau which one to hate? Oh that’s right he didn’t ask for permission why??? Because he’s God and he does whatsoever he desires and you sir CANNOT STAY HIS HAND
I would certainly hate being a TULIP Calvanist and having to defend the "T" Word. He's already called receiving the gospel a Work. That's silly. Faith is not work.....faith is a gift.
Leighton had him cornered from the get go and defeated from the get go. There are too many obvious and blatant contradictions from the Calvinistic worldview which leads to absurdity.
Ya I didn't think so at all. As a provisionist, primarily because of Flowers, I think that Webbon was stating his case more clearly and succinctly at first. Flowers didn't hit his stride until the question and answer period and finally came out on top.
Seeing Leighton flowers 'debate' is embarrassing. He 'debated' James White on Romans 9 or should I say did not even go near the text. Why? Because he exposes his inability to defend his Arminian position. Cringy.
shane mahoney the fact that guy actually think Leighton is an Arminian just highlights your ignorance and doesn’t give any credence to your comment at all. Very cringey.
@@emanuilgoshev350 James White would probably just be like "Well, I'm terribly disillusioned that he apparently is just here to drink water. I was expecting for him to talk more Romans 9". This after listening to Flower's speak for 20 minutes on Romans 9.
2:21:41 "That Word has 2 purposes, to save but also to further justify God in His condemnation for those God choses not to save. God can say on that final day, I gave you...I did this, I did that, I did this, I did that... and you refused." Ok... but your entire point as a Calvinist is that they had NO ABILITY TO NOT REFUSE as the non-Elect. I.e., once again, Calvinists arguing the premise that God condemns you for a choice God Himself made for you before you were born. Calvinism: God puts you in a room with 4 walls and no door, tells you to leave through the door, and then condemns you for not finding and walking through the door (that He never put in the room to begin with). Please make it make sense.
Leighton’s opening statements didn’t even sound like an opening to a debate. It just sounded like he was sharing The Gospel. Thank you Flowers. Ultimately though, thank you LORD.
Some questions for the Calvinistic group: Do you believe that God is Sovereign enough to predetermine his creatures to possess free will? If so, how could that free will bring His Sovereignty into question? If not, how then is the Calvinistic view of God truly Sovereign?
@Harold Zwingley Exactly. Which is all the more reason to believe in it. We couldn't deserve hell at all if we didn't have free will. We wouldn't have any responsibility.
Did Joel say Jesus’ humanity prevented Him from knowing who the elect were, and then later say He knew who they were? 1:28:50 Here he says Christ is giving us an example of what we should act like by giving us the impression that He wants all to be saved. 1:44:55 But here He says He knows all about it. Either Joel is contradicting himself or…is he implying that Jesus is lying or being hypocritical? I guess this is what happens when you have to interpret each verse in a way that doesn't conflict with your presupposed systematic.
Wow. That was a pretty rough answer on assurance of salvation. How can someone quote 1 John and then say it’s intention is for you to walk away with “some assurance?” The problem is that 1 John is tests of Fellowship, not assurance. “I write these things” is written 3 times within, and is talking about the purpose of immediate preceding text. 5:13 and the immediate preceding paragraph do bit on assurance. It talks about the testimony, which is that God has given everyone who believes in the Son, eternal life. So, assurance is based on God’s word. The essence of trusting Christ is that you’re confident in him FOR salvation. Calvinism totally muddies the water on assurance. It’s so sad.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 There is assurance in Calvinism. Don't take my word for it, consider Spurgeon to the disappointing Christian: "If the professed convert distinctly and deliberately declares that he knows the Lord’s will but does not mean to attend to it, you are not to pamper his presumption, but it is your duty to ASSURE him that he is not saved"
@@williammarinelli2363 My comment was made to point out the fact that a Calvinist can never be sure they are saved, because it's not by believing that they have life, (thought that's what the bible says), no, for a calavinist, it's by being one of God's elect that they are saved. But they have no ability to even know they are elect. They can think they are, and hope they are, but there is no real assurance of salvation in Calvinism... especially when they think that we cannot understand spiritual things at all without being regenerated and prechosen. The very mind a Calvinist would be using to evaluate their status is completely depraved, according to their doctrine, to the point where they will never do good, or believe/understand correct theology unless regenerated... but how do they know they've been regenerated? Can they trust their mind to properly evaluate things? How will they know their mind has been renewed? How do they know that their one of the few, specially chosen people to be saved, and not chosen to be damned? If the natural man cannot understand spiritual things, how do they know they're not using the same 'ol depraved mind they've always had? By looking at good works? By trying to find fruits of the Spirit? Do they see enough? Might they try and work harder, to have more assurance that they are saved, and then become confused about whether or not works are salvific? If it's not by believing that we have life, but instead "be chosen by God so that He'll save you", then you may just be waiting around for the rest of your life for a time where you somehow feel chosen. Oy... Calvinism is disgusting.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 We're in violent agreement. My observation was that Spurgeon could presumably look at someone else and see into his heart and assure them that they were not saved. Silly me, I thought only God can see the heart. Tongue and cheek aside - you're absolutely correct. If they can't quantify a "good enough" that constitutes a threshold of perseverance, then they cannot have assurance. Thanks.
This was a fantastic debate and an example of how Provsionist and Calvinist, as brothers in Christ should interact. Dr. Fowers, your presentations and rebuttals were spot on, well done!
Flowers is heretical on several points. He is a self avowed pelagian when he says that people become sinners when they reach an age of accountability. Psalm 58:3 (KJV 1900): The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Psalm 51:5 (KJV 1900): Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me. Exodus 20:5-6 (KJV 1900): Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
@@DrVarner It's in the Q&A at the end and during the debate. He flatly said that people do not inherit a sinful nature from their parents. Even Arminians do not deny original sin. John Wesley has an entire sermon on original sin in his 52 Standard Sermons. Furthermore, Flowers is too dense to realize that Whitefield's doctrine of effectual call is the same thing as regeneration. As for Colossians 2:12? It equates the resurrection of Christ with God's raising of the sinner from the dead. Through faith? That is the immediate response to being raised from spiritual death: Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV 1900): Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Ephesians 2:1-6 (KJV 1900): And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
@DrVarner I think you mean Pelagius. Yes. I read except during my seminary training at Asbury. Jerry Walls was my apologetics professor. Walls convinced me to become a Calvinist because his arguments were so bad.
The eisegesis by Calvinists of Ephesians 2:8-9 in conflating faith as the gift being referred to instead of the general thought being articulated, that is; that salvation through grace is the gift being referred to - is rampant! Listening in May of 2023!
9:12 he said that non Calvinists say that Calvinists fail to take the weight of the Gospel power, while Calvinist will say that non Calvinists lack to put enough weight on man's sinfulness? So what the Calvinist says is that mans sin over powers the power of the Gospel, so that it is impossible for God to save them.
I'm listening to the closing remarks and when I got to about the 1:45 mark what pastor Joel is showing is what every devoted Calvinist shows: that even when shown CLEAR scriptures that faith, belief, and repentance are BEFORE being saved they blatantly reject those and then, as pastor Joel just did, say that faith first is nowhere to be found in scripture. It is a willful blind rejection of the Bible so as to maintain their doctrine of Calvinism. Secondly, you will also notice how he, as typical of Calvinists, misrepresents what those who reject Calvinism believes. He went on to say that 'there are some who think they can work up their own faith', Leighton Flowers made it absolutely plain that this is not the case. He plainly said that faith IS a gift FROM GOD similar to how our breathing is a gift from God. It's from God. The contention is whether or not God makes it available to all or only gives it to those he regenerates....after the fact. What I see from pastor Joel is typical of how Calvinism twists the minds of believers so that they end up perverting scripture when it challenges their doctrine and it causes them to slander and misrepresent those individuals who speak out and show the errors of Calvinism.
I picked that up as well in the last comments. It was upsetting because he was very careful to not make that mistake during cross-examination. Yet, he didn’t realize that his closing statement was a slap in the face to his own previous efforts to not misrepresent. The problem is that the response in faith does not neatly fit into the Calvinist’s box of accusations.
Calvinists are not Christians. They are a gnostic sect. Manichaean Gnosticism Christianized. It is sick... then they run around wanting us bible believing Christians to call them "brothers" and "sisters" as they continue to reject the Gospel and Christ and try to convert baby Christians into their gnostic cult.
1:59 Joel basically is saying that he has the right doctrine and that Leighton is not as mature as him. This is a point that causes great grief, division, and stress among friends and families. Calvinists believe they are right and more “enlightened” than all other believers. This belief causes them to spend a great amount of time in heresy hunting, trying to convert Christians to Christianity, and leaving massive division in the wake.
I think this is the most clearest verse concerning the matter in the whole of scripture. Ephesians 1:13 New King James Version In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, We trusted(in Christ) after we heard the Word (what word?) The Gospel of Salvation then what? we believed(place faith trust).....The result sealed with the Holy Spirit (Salvation). It's that simple to me no need for me to look for anything else. Be blessed all! 🙏
Joel was very close to fairly representing Provisionism. Where he fell short was when he conflated Provisionism’s Responsibility with being a work, when Responsibility is simply a response in faith or not-faith to the work that God has already provided. This resolves any accusation of a works-based salvation in the system.
Faith simply IS. To EVERY man has been granted a measure of faith. To us is given the choice what to do with it - for life or death, blessing or cursing, God or the devil. Everyone puts their measure of faith IN something. He who chooses to put faith IN God, as He intended, to them He through His Son has given the power to become sons of God (regeneration)
@Animosity-yj7um Correct. Salvation is conditioned upon you putting your Faith in Christ as your Lord and Savior. From a human perspective we can only tell if someone is saved or not by their fruit. So if someone is actively living in sin and saying that Christ is not their Lord than yes I am not going to think they are Saved even if they previously confessed to know Jesus. Calvinist would think what? Their previous Faith and "good works", even as a Calvinist lets say, was just God fooling that individual into thinking that God had chose him as one of the Elect? How do you know you are Elect my friend? God could just be fooling you. I believe based on scripture that I have assurance because scripture says that "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God," Eph 2:8. Salvation is a gift of God that anyone can accept if they put their Faith in Jesus. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.' Romans 6:23
I simply hope that everyone interested on this discussion will continue to grow in the grace and understanding of our Lord. Do not let this be just about entertainment.
Under provisionism, it's very possible and hopefully likely. Under Calvinism, the only ones who could possibly grow in faith and understanding are the ones listening who were "chosen". The rest are out of luck.
22:43 the wording Dr. Flowers uses is very interesting to me. “And by responsibility, we mean, yes, what it connotes; the ability to respond, in faith, to the inspired truth that was sent to HELP set people free from their bondage.” John 8:34-36 (NASB): 34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. It’s THE truth, THE Son, that makes men free. The gospel is proclaimed to all men, those who have been set free by the Son will cling to the mercy and grace offered at the cross of Christ.
As a dyed in the wool Reformed Protestant for 30 years, but who is now exploring what the early church fathers believed and as a result am becoming more open minded, I found the statement “Isn’t Jesus’ marveling at their unbelief like marveling that people can’t breathe underwater?” worth the price of admission alone. Thank you for this presentation. One more thing, the Calvinist’s style of delivery feels unnatural and over-the-top. I know a few Reformed Baptists who love preaching like this, but it’s so theatrical so as to be distracting.
Your ignorance of the doctrine of the incarnation rivals that of Flowers. Jesus was a genuine human being and a man. He was also fully God. But was Jesus omniscient in his human nature? No. Try again
The Calvinist's style not only feels that way, but also full of falsehoods about the other perspective. For example, the insistence that non-Calvinists believe that they can earn their salvation by faith. Calvinists consistently label faith as a work in this case because it holds up their strawman!
@@ThomasCranmer1959 your statement is confusing to me. Perhaps you can help me out. First off it does not seem to address anything that is being said in this thread. Besides that; has Flowers very indicated that he thinks that Jesus was omniscient on earth? Genuine question. I haven’t heard him say that.
@@mayorrodgers7446 Flowers equivocates and dodges the real issues and plays to his audience. Did Flowers say Jesus is not omniscient in His human mind and soul? Yes or no?
It denies many scriptures and takes Gods sovereignty and gives it to man’s decisions and actions and WILL (the exact thing it says it is not by). Humans want control and cannot stand the idea of not working for heaven, but if you are in the book…it wasn’t because you chose to be written in it lol
@Ben Pat Those who will hear," Depart " from the lips of our Savior, are I deed free willers. They were explaining to Jesus,that they thought was their Savior ,that they did MANY " good works" by their free will, when they didn't have to and this is also the reason that they thought they believed, that THEY ACCEPTED JESUS, WHEN THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO. This is the wickedness that Jesus was talking about. So when Jesus told them that He never knew them, He was telling them that He never loved them.
The wicked man denies that Faith is a gift from God,they want to believe that slaves to sin can conjure faith by themselves,in this God hating state,and then trade it to God so God must give them the new birth and salvation .Question:If man can believe in their spiritually dead state,why would they then need the new birth?
I was raised believing I was chosen -one of the elect. One day as a young adult, I asked myself “how do I know I was chosen?” …And that brought me into years of looking for answers. The burden of election was a huge barrier and load to carry (the big pill to swallow) As I was reading God‘s word it said “my yoke is easy and my burden is light“. There is no way I can live with a calvinistic belief that God glorifies himself in the condemnation of his creation that he gave *no chance to be saved. Knowing before they even take their first breath, that he has pleasure in sending them to hell! Even saying that, I feel like I just blasphemed His Holy Name. I am so thankful for Dr. flowers once being a Calvinist, and now a provisionist as he speaks from experience as with myself. I would say to the Calvinists, look to the attributes of God. A loving sacrificial God, who sent his son to die for us -would never purposely send innocent people to hell from before their birth even babies if they’re not “elect”. I am to be Christlike. As a mother and grandmother I want to be like Christ, and strive to be like my Savior. But if I was like my Savior, then am I to throw some grand children into the fire and keep some out? God for bed! You are a Holy God, you are good, you are righteous, you are faithful, you are long-suffering, you are gracious, forgiving, “Not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” Now I can say “His yoke is easy and His burden is light” in my life. Amen and amen.
Thst was the best response i have ever heard. Well said. Jesus said the we being evil know how to give good gifts, how much more our heavenly father. So are we more compassionate than he? Unfortunately some actually believe so. Calvanists would say we dont know what is good and evil, i happened to read in Genesis that was the tree that adam n eve ate from. All of humanity knows in their spirit what is good n evil. Again, very well said. Excellent.
I would rather be a Christian and follow Christ than follow a man called Calvin who's teaching is dangerous. If God chooses people for Salvation then it would appear that Jesus the Son of the living God died and suffered in vain.
"I would say to the Calvinists, look to the attributes of God. A loving sacrificial God, who sent his son to die for us -would never purposely send innocent people to hell from before their birth even babies if they’re not “elect”. " This is a pretty flawed argument. There is no innocent person, we are all guilty of death and eternal damnation from the the womb. As the psalms say "In sin my mother conceived me". God doesn't send innocent people to hell because they were elect. God saves the very people who murdered his own Son (Jesus) from hell out of his loving kindness towards them. And whats more, he used the fact that they murdered his son as the means of saving them. Amen that God is loving and sacrificial, but to pretend that humans are ever innocent is to deny the scripture. The God of scripture saves even the most heinous creature of his choosing, not because that person deserves it, or was owed it, or chose it, but because of his own loving kindness.
Thers nothing biblical abt anything of your statement. We can't create our own image of God the way we want to believe Him. That's idolatry. Pagan view. Thers no darkness in God He is infinitely perfect in all His attributes and His word is perfect. 15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy (Rom:9.15-16) 13But we are boundaries to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2th.2:13) 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, (2tim:2.9) Amen 🙏
@@pateunuchity884 You need to read more provisionist scholars. 😂 Calvinists think God only knows because he determined it. (Which is a fallacy of infinite regression)
Jeffrey hunt, sure. Colossians 2:12 KJV [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. I could say a lot about this verse, but I’ll just keep it short. This verse shows we are raised THROUGH faith. The idea of some monergistic (all gods doing) regeneration, being required to happen, such that we can believe (have faith), just isn’t in the Bible. This verse shows just the opposite of that idea. We hear the gospel message, we believe, we die with Christ in baptism (water baptism), and we are raised through faith (that’s mans part) of the operation of god, who has raised Christ from dead. Pretty straightforward IMO. Reformed theology (also referred to as Calvinism) is the typically presented with the TULIP acronym. Total Depravity Unconditional Election Limited Atonement Irresistible Grace Preservation of the Saints In a nutshell: T - man is totally depraved and cannot respond positively to the gospel message or anything of god unless god does an unrequested work in us first to make us able to respond. U - God elected people from before the foundation of the world, to be gods elect and be saved somehow someway, no matter what. For everyone else, well, they were born just to sin and roast in hell for all eternity. L - Christ’s atoning work was limited to only being for the elect (mentioned above). If you weren’t elect from the foundation of the world, then Christ’s atoning work was never meant for you and you never had any real chance of coming to Christ or going to heaven. Renew me, because of total depravity, you can’t come to god because you can’t respond positively to the gospel appeal. I - God will irresistible draw his elect, such that they will have the inclination and capability to respond to god, and those who are elect will certainly respond and be saved. This is the unrequested work I referenced in total depravity above. P - The saved ones (elect, saints, etc), will be preserved in Christ, regardless of how much they disobey, no matter how much they sin. The amount you sin and disobey will only impact how much you suffer in this life, but it doesn’t prevent you from reaching heaven. That’s Calvinism/reformed theology in a nutshell shell. It’s completely unbiblical.
Faith is the means, that verse doesn’t establish where that faith comes from, it isn’t attempting to state the origin of faith but the means. Faith is the gift of God.
Michael Borg , the Bible tells us where faith comes from. Romans 10:17 KJV [17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Again, Calvinism is not biblical. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of god (ie, the gospel). No mention of unrequested, forceful actions from god.
Pat Eunuchity yes, they affirm the gospel is God’s Grace to humanity, faith is mans gift to God. They do not believe in any inward working of the spirit prior to conversion (which Phillippians 1:6 contradicts). To the provisionist God ‘initiates’ Grace by the gospel itself. It is up to man to make up the rest and God is a mere beggar of a savior but not an actual savior.
Pleasure always to hear and learn from Joel. Who also has the gift of not wanting to murder his opponents. Like the self important high and might “Doctor” James White. Which brings me Joel. A brother in Christ also gifted with a peaceful spirit. Yet still hindered in the race with faith in guy named Calvin above the immutable word of God
I wrestled with my stance on this issue some time ago because I really enjoyed preachers such as MacArthur, Sproul and many others, yet in the end found Calvinism to be a pill too hard to swallow. This was after weeks and months of listening to debates, reading and praying with scripture and looking at all the verses that get thrown around. Amazingly I came to the same stance as Mr. Flowers here that the argument from the Calvinist side just appears illogical and unreasonable in light of scripture. In regard to salvation it’s like telling my friend who has no legs to walk to me then faulting him when he remains as he is. I still admire many Calvinist teachers and watch them often but I feel as though how a person got saved often plays into their understanding of salvation. Some people don’t need as much convincing of their brokenness and need for salvation. The gospel is hitting them on one side of the head and their sin is throbbing the other and it’s all they can do to cry out to God for rescue. Others require Gods intervention in such a way that drastically interjects the course of their life so as to tear down the walls they built up around themselves to hide from God. This is why I empathize with the Calvinist stance but do not think it is accurate. If God is good and not a God of chaos, it seems good and orderly that in his sovereignty he allows the gospel to go out and allows for man’s response to it ,justifying both the responsibility of man and the goodness of God in his judgement. The Calvinist view of sovereignty seems to imply that God needs to control every aspect of man like a robot or puppet then toss him away when he is done with him all the while faulting him for his actions. I personally think God is so secure in his sovereignty that allowing man to respond isn’t a threat to his will or a theft of his glory but a justification of it. In allowing man a response he establishes the evidence of the truth of his word and leaves the rebel without an excuse against God. I really can’t understand from the Calvinist perspective what Gods purpose in creating unbelievers would be. If the belief of the elect rests on the choosing of God, then the unbelief of the non elect would necessarily have to hinge on his not choosing. This makes it illogical that the lack of response to God would fall on men. If God is the catalyst for belief how could it not fall on God when man does not respond to him. I accept that it is well within Gods purview to do whatever he pleases with whomever as he is God and creator but his word does not cast him in the light that I think many Calvinists views of him do. In addition if God wills that no one perish, why not call all to salvation instead of only some? I believe he does, as flowers demonstrated, through his Word and the truth of the gospel. This debate laid the issues out nicely. As I said, I still love watching my Calvinist brothers such as Mr. Webbon. I enjoy theology applied and his interaction with the guys from haunted cosmos. I just find this to be one of those issues that the church may have to agree to disagree on and continue debating until Christ comes.
But Jesus' point in John 6 is that if the Father gives an individual to the Son, he will be saved... There is no option to reject God's salvation for the one for whom Jesus made atonement.
@@lawrencestanley8989 "Jesus' point in John 6 is that if the Father gives an individual to the Son, he will be saved.." is it? is that what it means to be given to the Son? Because I'm pretty sure every knee will bow and there will be A LOT of knees that are going to go directly to hell after they recognize that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God The Father...(John 5:27, Luke 19:27, Rev 19:15,)
João Pedro Macimiano Trabbold where??? Ummmm: ... According to Romans 10:10 you BELIEVE UNTO righteousness not the other way around. You’re NOT made righteous first so as to believe: ROMANS 10:9,10 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. 10 For with the heart man BELIEVETH UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS; and with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation. *************************************** ...According to Galatians 3:26 are we made children of God and then believe or do we believe first in order to become children of God? GALATIANS 3:26 26 For ye are all the children of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. The order is crystal clear in this verse. *************************************** ...According to Ephesians 1:13 did you believe BEFORE or after you received the Holy Spirit? EPHESIANS 1:13 13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER THAT YE HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise, The order is crystal clear in this passage that we are sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise AFTER we believe and NOT the other way around as you claim. *************************************** ...According to Galatians 3:14 we receive the promise of the Spirit THROUGH FAITH: GALATIANS 3:14 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the spirit THROUGH FAITH. The order is crystal clear in this passage that we receive the promise of the Spirit through FAITH and not the other way around as you claim. *************************************** ...According to Romans 3:22 is the righteousness of God BY faith or does faith come after the righteousness of God comes? ROMANS 3:22 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE: for there is no difference: The order is crystal clear in this passage the righteousness of God is unto all that BELIEVE and not the other way around as you claim. *************************************** ...According to John 20:31 do you have life first so as to then believe or do you believe so as to then have life? JOHN 20:31 31 But these are written, THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE THROUGH HIS NAME. *BELIEVE FIRST THEN HAVE LIFE.* It doesn’t say you’re made alive so as to believe. God’s word is written that you might believe! NOT “your heart is changed that you might believe.” *************************************** ...According to Romans 4:3 was Abraham made righteous so as to believe, or did he have to believe FIRST? ROMANS 4:3 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it was countered unto him for righteousness. The order is crystal clear in this passage in that we’re counted righteous after we BELIEVE and not the other way around as you claim. *************************************** ...According to Romans 5:1,2 how do we access the grace of God? Is it by faith? Or do we access the faith by grace? ROMANS 5:1,2 1 Therefore being justified BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also WE HAVE ACCESS BY FAITH INTO THIS GRACE wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. The order is crystal clear in this verse. *************************************** ...According to Acts 13:39 do you receive justification prior to faith in Christ? Can you be born again before being justified??? OF COURSE NOT! ACTS 13:39 39 And by him all that BELIEVE ARE JUSTIFIED from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. *************************************** ...According to Acts 16:30,31 are you saved before believing or after believing? Does this verse mention anything about having to be one of the chosen few and then regenerated first or is it simply BELIEVE? ACTS 16:30,31 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. *************************************** ...According to John 7:38 do you have living water first before you believe or does it flow out AFTER you believe? ...According to Acts 7:39 do you receive Him by faith first and THEN God gives you the power of the Holy Spirit or is it the other way around? JOHN 7:38 38 He that BELIEVETH on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which THEY THAT BELIEVE ON HIM SHOULD RECEIVE: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) *This scripture clearly says they that BELIEVE on Him receive the Holy Spirit.* The Holy Spirit ISN’T given first so as to believe. You don’t receive it UNTIL you believe. *************************************** ...According to Galatians 3:2-5 do you receive faith by the Spirit first or do you receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith? According to Galatians 3:2 is this considered a work of the law or is Paul actually contrasting it to a work? GALATIANS 3:2-5 2 This only would I learn of you, RECEIVED YE THE SPIRIT by the works of the law, or BY THE HEARING OF FAITH? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 HE THEREFORE THAT MINISTERETH TO YOU THE SPIRIT, and worketh miracles among you, DOETH HE IT by the works of the law, or BY THE HEARING OF FAITH? Do you reject all these passages of scripture?
@@apilkey Nope, I don't reject them. But can you give me one, just ONE passage that talks about how your faith comes before being born again? You showed passages that show how faith precedes righteousness, or that faith precedes the seal of the Spirit.
João Pedro Macimiano Trabbold What do you think it means to be “born again”? Being regenerated/quickened or born again is not simply a cute little heart change. It’s a full on spiritual operation of God WITH CHRIST that involves your SPIRIT first and foremost. ...According to Romans 2:29 Regeneration/born again is the act of God which is a spiritual circumcision of the heart IN THE SPIRIT. Therefore it’s impossible to be circumcised prior to Christ for the very act of circumcision is OF CHRIST: ROMANS 2:29 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and CIRCUMCISION is that of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. *************************************** ...According to Galatians 2:20 we’re crucified WITH Christ; therefore it’s impossible to be regenerated or quickened by the spirit beforehand. We know this because nothing can be quickened lest it die FIRST. And we also know we’re not quickened and then die because then we’d have to be quickened AGAIN a second time! You die (crucified with Christ/buried in baptism) FIRST, and THEN you’re risen to new life WITH Christ by the very operation of God as a totally new creature with old things passed away. This is 100% of God with zero human involvement. ...According to Galatians 2:20 we’re crucified WITH Christ: GALATIANS 2:20 20 I am CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. A new heart is only a fraction of the operation. Regeneration can only happen WITH Christ because it actually involves Him at the very centre. You can’t remove Christ from the process as it revolves around Him. It involves being BURIED with Him in spiritual baptism and being CRUCIFIED with Him and then RISING TO NEW LIFE having put off the man of sin and putting on the new man. Totally new creature. Totally new creation. Old is passed away. *How can you have all these things before or without Christ?* *The process of regeneration gives you eternal life so how can you have eternal life BEFORE CHRIST?* None of this is possible before coming to Christ and we know we come to Christ THROUGH FAITH. We are born again when we’re raised to life with Christ and before we can be risen with Him we must die with Him. *How can you be quickened before you die?*
@@pateunuchity884 hahaha. James White's treatment of Leighton is what brought that on. You have only JW to thank for that As do I. Those were some tasty hotdogs.
@@pateunuchity884 Leighton himself has reprimanded his viewers several times for their conduct towards Calvinists. That being said, we have free will, and people are inevitably going to do things you don't wish them to do. I can also say for certain that many followers of Soteriology 101 have been hurt by Calvinist theology and have an axe to grind. It's unchristlike to seek vengeance against those who wronged you theologically, but we can at least say that they act on their free will rather than being determined by either their nature or God to act that way.
@@pateunuchity884 I for one agree, that James White's books should probably be burned, not read. He has traded the truth for a lie and is teaching false doctrine, and unable to hear rebuke or correction.
@@pateunuchity884 I don't think Calvinists are heretics. I do think their position is untenable from a logical and biblical perspective. Many people on the provisionist camp do believe that they're heretics and it's something I wish people don't hold on to. Bitterness is unchristlike and does not allow for healing to happen. Then agian, I'm a nobody; people aren't going to listen to me. Citations work because it backs your words with the words of more esteemed people.
Is there a command to be saved? Yes, Acts 2:38 and especially Acts 17:30-31 “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world…”
One thing I notice about people who promote Calvinism is that they try to constantly redefine terms. It gets very confusing. It feels like relabeling. In this debate, he keeps saying they are “utterly depraved not totally depraved” (or vice versa? Honestly I forget now). But if I look up the definition of “utterly” in the dictionary it says “totally, completely, fully” etc. so they actually have the same meaning. But he is trying to say they are two totally different things. The Gospel is simple enough to be understood by every day people. Jesus chose fisherman to be disciples, not the scholarly teachers from the synagogues. We should not be making it confusing. It’s good news for all! Follow Jesus, seek the truth and you will find God there. If you are here from a Calvinist background and worry if you are elect…believe and you will be saved. If you believe in Jesus as your savior, you are elect. All who believe in him will be saved.
“Jesus is not particularly helpful”- I almost wrecked my car while driving when those words came out of the Calvinist’s mouth. How dare Jesus say something that does not neatly fit within a logical construct!!
Romans 9: 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
In the start of the cross examination I think Pastor Joel is making the Fallacy of Equivocation, probably unintentionally. There are two different meanings of 'work' at play. One is the everyday meaning of 'any action', in that sense everything a human does is a work including the action of believing by faith. However the Biblical meaning of 'work' in sotereological passages is always contrasted against faith. Hence, this second meaning can never be equated with the action of believing faith.
1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.
2:22:00 about means of grace: how an individual can be blamed for refusing God if he has been destined by God to refuse? How such a cheating would increase glory of God? Calvinists lack simplicity of Christ praised in NT, and simplicity of heart so praised in OT. MY GOD IS NOT CHEATING - He will not blame me for my choice if it’s actually not my choice but His! God bless you and lead into truth! 🙏
It’s 2 months but Im writing this under the assumption that you haven’t received a satisfactory answer. St Thomas has an almost identical view of predestination as the Reformed (with some nuance) but we would agree on reprobation which is the topic of your question: how can God blame me for my choice when I was already foreordained to destruction? In the Summa Theologiae, St Thomas tackles this question masterfully. I’ll copy and paste some of the text that is relevant to your question. If you want, you can read the whole section yourself. Question 23: Predestination Article 3: Wether God reprobates a man? Objection 2 (I skipped Objection one because it’s not particularly relevant as I said before): If God reprobates any man, it would be necessary for reprobation to have the same relation to the reprobates as predestination has to the predestined. But predestination is the cause of the salvation of the predestined. Therefore reprobation will likewise be the cause of the loss of the reprobate. But this false. For it is said (Hosea 13:9): "Destruction is thy own, O Israel; Thy help is only in Me." God does not, then, reprobate any man. Objection 3: Further, to no one ought anything be imputed which he cannot avoid. But if God reprobates anyone, that one must perish. For it is said (Ecclesiastes 7:14): "Consider the works of God, that no man can correct whom He hath despised." Therefore it could not be imputed to any man, were he to perish. But this is false. Therefore God does not reprobate anyone. *On the Contrary* it is written (Malachi 1:2-3): "I have loved Jacob, but have hated Esau." Reply to Objection 2. Reprobation differs in its causality from predestination. This latter is the cause both of what is expected in the future life by the predestined-namely, glory-and of what is received in this life-namely, grace. Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present-namely, sin; but it is the cause of abandonment by God. It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future-namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and deserted by grace. In this way, the word of the prophet is true-namely, "Destruction is thy own, O Israel." Reply to Objection 3. Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said that the reprobated cannot obtain grace, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above (I:19:3), that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice. Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.
So basically what St Thomas is getting at in these replies (and you’ll see this in the Classical Reformed as well) is a distinction between reprobation and damnation. Reprobation is simply the decree to not give grace. The sinners response to this privation of grace by the contingency of their own free will is to sin. Thus on the basis of that sin is what damns the sinner. The predestination of the elect is a positive act of infusing grace into the soul, which moves the Will freely (regeneration) towards salvation. This is why Sproul, for example, is going to call double predestination asymmetrical. This is also why St Thomas says “reprobation by God differs in its causality from predestination”. One is a positive act and the other is a negative or “hands off” approach
In summary, what you are misunderstanding is secondary causality. This isn’t some Edwardian occasionalism where God works in everything immediately (which is blasphemy) but works and decrees things mediately according to the nature of the thing. So when we say that the reprobate are foreordained to destruction, this in no wise entails that there is no involvement of the will. God is not forcing this person to sin to fulfill His decree. His decree is brought to pass by the sinners own free will. This is what the Westminster confession of faith means in chapter 3: God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, *as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away,* but rather established. Now if you are scratching your head thinking (assuming you watch Flowers often) “but I thought the Reformed don’t believe in free will?” The Reformed deny libertarian free will. Hope this helped. God bless
Now I know why Leighton did a review of the debate on his channel. Im confused just listening to Joel try to go around in circles without addressing actual verses... well I know that verse seems to say that, but...
OK so I still have a few issues with how one actually gets saved and why is it that I am a Christian and my wife isn't??...BUT...Pastor Joel completely lost me when he uttered these words: "I don't think Jesus is particularly helpful here" in the QandA when referring to Mark 6:6 at 1:26:32. Those words would be and should be enough to stop anybody embracing Calvinism full on. I mean come on...you have a serious problem if Jesus 'is not particularly helpful' to your theology 😂
02:06:00 one of the biggest downside and problems with Calvinism. You end up looking to self for confirmations of salvation. Instead of looking to the promise of God. Did God promise? Yes. Do I believe it? Yes. Than I have it. Period.
Listen I am not one of those that think Calvinist aren't Christians, I really want to have a generous orthodoxy, and allow for a big tent, but if Jesus isn't helpful 1:26:38 then I don't think we are worshipping the same God.
Some people just have a different speaking voice. He is used to preaching in a certain setting, and he went into preaching mode for his tone and style. I certainly don't think that lost him the debate. I think his arguments lost him the debate.
Anyone else think that if someone judges a debate off of any thing other than the content (physical appearance,accent, tone,etc.) is void of any coherent thought?
@@triggerwarning2982 Agreed. However, if you are applying this passive-aggressively to OP, you would do well to know that was not the intention of the comment.
One of the best Calvinist/Traditionalist debates I've watched. Both were congenial to each other, and for the most part 'listened' to each other in an attempt to fully understand each others questions. I'm personally an ex-Calvinist turned Provisionalist, and I absolutely believe conversations like this that need to be had more often. Some topics, such as this one, are creating great divides within the body of Christ, and that needs fought against. And that's done by simply having these conversations, in this manner of respect and honor towards each other, regardless of which side you're on.
@@ernestojlassus1354 you're so deceived. You simply don't believe a book called the Bible if you're a blasphemous calvinist . Calvinism is blasphemy as it deems CHRIST deceitful and distorted the gospel of CHRIST as it pushes limited atonement becoming an enemy of CHRIST .
@@ernestojlassus1354 you need to seriously study Pelagianism my friend, as well as Provisionalism, because neither I nor Leighton Flowers is even semi-Pelagian. No worries though, since I was obviously predestined to become an ex-Calvinist.
Because God has exhaustive knowledge of the future, heaven was created for Satan, his demons, and all who never submit to Christ’s lordship. According to Calvinism, while they have the choice, they cannot and will not make the choice. But we should not feel sorry for man, because man willfully rejects God. There is no such thing as an innocent person (apart from Jesus).
@@karenroyal57 because we all have human wills. We make decisions every day. The problem is our wills are in bondage to sin. It’s not that humans are being forced to sin, but we choose it every single day in spite of God. We are free to do whatever we are most inclined to do at any particular moment, which for the one not regenerated by the Spirit is always sin (Romans 3:10-18, 8:7, Ephesians 2:1-2, etc.).
@@Nathan-mf2yz look, I know I’m saved by grace alone.. but for those who are saying or teaching the Word of God teaches only the elect are chosen to be saved, then I question why hell was created for those who were “not chosen “ to be coast into hell for not having the choice to choose
@@karenroyal57 Thanks for your reply sister. Both of us can absolutely agree salvation is by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone. I’m a little confused what you meant when you quoted, “not chosen”. Where did you derive that quote from? I think one thing that may help explain the biblical teaching on man’s will is the London Baptist 1689 confession of faith chapter on free will: “God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin, and by His grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he does not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but does also will that which is evil. This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only” There are scripture verse citations explaining which passages each part of that was from if you google the 1689 confession chapter on free will
The good news of salvation through CHRIST ( the gospel )is not in the message of Calvinism .. The only news is you might be elect so give it a shot , you might get lucky..
I found this question in the live chat, "Question for Dr. Flowers.. how can God’s will be fulfilled if it is dependent on the choice of man? Does this make creation an experiment from God and he will just analyze the outcome of the randoms." My answer is simple, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." How can God be willing and still only elect certain ones to be saved?
Exactly. Also, if by will they are referring to God’s decrees, He doesn’t decree everything little move that occurs. There are certain things that He has certainly decreed and one way or another He will make them come about. The incarnation, the cross, His resurrection, His second coming, etc.
Many years ago James White wrote a book showing the truth about this verse. Read in context, the "not willing that any should perish" clearly refers to all the elect throughout history. Peter is writing to Christians, not nonchristians, who are eagerly awaiting Jesus' return. On the other hand, mockers and other antagonists also mentioned in the same letter are promised severe punishment. The intended audience is very clearly deliniated.
"I don't think Jesus is particularly helpful here." - Joel Webbon 1:26:29 Wow! How could Joel bring himself to say that??? There is no scenario, in theology or outside of theology, where the Incarnate Son of God is not helpful. The Lord Jesus Christ is the ultimately revelation of God. He, and He alone is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life. If the Lord Jesus said something, it's helpful.
The gymnastics this Calvinist takes when explaining Jesus' disdain for those who are without faith, disobedient, stubborn, is so lengthy. Its not complicated.
Wow, the guy representing “ Calvinism” opened this debate with quoting so many great scriptures but just all out of context trying and forcing them into his systematic believing that it has legitimised his position, reminded me of talking to a Jehovah witnesses or Mormon elders.
Mr. Webbon said that on the non-Calvinist view, faith is tuebsinner's gift to God. What could God possibly gain from our faith? It's for our benefit that God calls us to have faith. The fact that He has given us the free will to exercise faith doesn't somehow mean that we are contributing something to God.
1:50:00 So, God is a narcissist? I don't read God's jealousy that way. A husband is jealous of his wife when she sleeps with another man. It isn't because he wanted the things she gave him (her body, her affection, etc.) - it's because he wanted her. But because she was giving herself to her adulterous lover through her actions, the actions are being condemned. But The husband loves his wife, not just her body. I'd like to hear Joel define "glory" because it makes no sense to me how anyone could see God as good if his ultimate goal is to gain others' approval.
Flowers won this hands down coming in from a open perspective no one can deny that !! I thought flowers was far more accurate and just common sense but can’t lie soon as Joel said the LORD JESUS CHRIST didn’t help himself there 😳 wow just wow just them words absolutely kills it for him 🙈
When Jonathan Edwards said, we contribute nothing to our Salvation except our sin, didn't he know, that according to his Calvinistic belief, even sin was ordained/decreed/determined by God? So, either he doesn't know Calvinism or he doesn't believe in Calvinism.
The cross examination of the Calvinist was eye opening! Especially the statement, “Jesus isn’t very helpful here”? WOW! The Word made flesh confuses us on what truth is? If it takes this amount of confusion to be a Calvinist why bother!
@@jamesgasaway7784 Interesting...If you're an exhaustive divine determinist of any variety, then you've just made God the Author of confusion and Scripture clearly states that He is not...maybe it is those who hold on to Calvinistic exhaustive divine determinism who are confused? Have you thought of that? Oh wait, you're not really free to think, only to think what you're determined to think. These and other incoherent or contradictory issues is what Leigton has been successfully pushing back on.
@@titosantiago3694 I'm no great fan of Leighton's opponent in this debate, but I wonder what you'd say regarding his interaction with someone like James White. I'm not sure any serious-minded person can watch their debate and still think Leighton knows what he's doing. In any case, I must challenge the foundation of your primary critique. That is, just because you're (apparently) confused, it doesn't mean God is to blame.
@@titosantiago3694 In any case, I suggest taking some time to examine your motivation in resisting the clear Scriptural definition of man as incapable of repentance. Invariably it's a question of man's pursuit of sharing God's glory. I suspect you may not be ready to admit that, but I trust that time and serious study will bring you into a right humility as a helpless sinner before a holy God.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
1:21:37 Brother Joel says "The gospel doesn't have a power to ontologicaly change anybody".
However Romans 1:16 says "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel because IT IS the Power of God unto Salvation to everyone that believes".
YES, that verse immediately popped into my head, too!
The point is who will believe…
those who believe. Belief comes from regeneration. Belief is a response to the miraculous drawing of the Father through the Spirit. 😊 (Belief is 100% the individual, but it is the fruit of God's WORK.) Therefore God gets all the glory.
@@Called_Out_Ones Yes, but there are those the father did not draw…
”No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.“
John 6:44 NASB1995
I think he misspoke, because this is the entire point of Calvinism. When God pursues a man, they are saved always. God never fails, and will never lose that person. If you are trusting in Christ according to Calvinism, God loves you infinitely and will never let you go. He will finish that work
Anytime a Pastor has to say "Jesus isn't helpful here." it's a clear indicator that something is dreadfully wrong with his theology. Thus he and his congregation is in need of help.
Tells me there is something dreadfully wrong with his so called "faith". Calvinists believe in a false Gospel, false God and false Jesus... how can they be saved? They are victims, but they need to understand that what they believe in is NOT Christianity. It is Manichaean Gnosticism Christianized.
@@learn-about-God I just searched "Manichaean Gnosticism". OMG, I'm surprized.
@@learn-about-God spouting and parroting the same Flowerist nonsense ? Jesus saves sinners. He seeks and saves those whom He wills to seek and save . The semi-Pelagians have always sought to puff man up and to marginalize God's work in His creation . Their motto will always be : to man be the glory .
@@timothykring4772 Tim... I'm not parroting anyone but Scripture itself. You do realize that Calvinism is the most man-centered theology that exists? "God chose me", "I'm a chosen one, out of many who were not", etc. --- You have ZERO passages in Scripture that you believe that says Jesus died for you! You reject all passages that Scripture says Jesus tasted death for every man... so you don't actually know if Jesus died for you! You have to rely on YOUR own experiences and YOUR own works to have a guess that you are one of the gnostically "elect". No Calvinist has assurance that Jesus died for them in Scripture, because you reject the Gospel for a substitute (Calvinism). If you don't believe that Jesus Christ tasted death for every man, then you are not a Christian.
Also, stop using terms that you actually don't know, like "Semi-Pelagian"... did you know that Pelagius didn't even believe what Augustine said about him? Augustine lied to make him look bad. We know this because we now have writings of Pelagius. Pelagius wasn't a "Pleagian" as ignorant Calvinists define it as.
You need to stop following after your Calvinist Gurus "The great men of the faith" and start following Jesus Christ. Read Scripture and actually believe what it says. Stop using outside sources to tell you what to believe. That is your major flaw. Actually uphold to your 5 Solas, instead of pretending you do while you do the exact opposite... then you wouldn't be a Calvinist.
@timothykring4772 nonsense
Wow!, at 1:26:07 Leighton asks a question about Mark 6:6, Jesus words and Jeff Webbin says, I don’t think Jesus is particularly helpful here”. That should tell you a lot.
Dr. Flowers' question about Colossians 2:12 and Webbon's response to it is what won the debate for Leighton in my opinion.
Yeah, to Joel’s defense cross examination is the hardest portion of any debate. And Joel does not have an answer for every question like dr flowers.
@@TheRemnantRadio Good point. I don't think Joel was prepared to answer that question. I'd be interested to hear his best response to it.
Joel had a good closing statement. The Calvinist perspective of the sovereignty of God has great emotional appeal. I think that comes at the expense, however, of the pleasure that God gets from our voluntary submission to him (Hebrews 11:6) and the attraction that God has despite the resistance of our flesh (John 3:19-21).
What does “flatten out” even mean?
In regards to Colossians 2:12 the dead sinner needs circumcision of the heart to make them spiritually sensitive to God. Spiritual circumcision precedes faith
You could tell as he was reading Colossians the flowers was ready to get moved on from it because he heard all the Calvinist language. But then the Calvinist conceded as if he didn't even understand what he was reading.
Flowers can't get any scholars to debate so he's got a pick some rookie?
My Jaw dropped when I heard this Q&A, especially the A: 1:25:55
Q: Why is Jesus marveling at peoples unbelief if he made them that way? It's like marveling that people can't breathe underwater.
A: "I don't think Jesus was particularly helpful (to Cultvinism) here." 😯
GAME, SET & MATCH!!
Yikes!
Pastor Joel had a well rehearsed opener but didn't do so well after that. His rebuttal and especially the cross examination (he is stumped on Colossians 2:12) revealed his lack of experience in debating the Provisionist view.
Best lighting I have ever seen in a debate. To the film team - excellent work!!
Thank you to the participants.
Lol, very random thing to say.
Just watching the Derek Webb interview, where it says he was a former calvinist turned a theist, he was never a Christian, a believer in Jesus Christ to begin with. I can't believe that I am only in the beginning of this quote-unquote debate and I'm hearing it this. I'm a Believer in Jesus Christ oh, that I am a sinner and that I was on my way to hell oh, because I was born a sinner. I didn't know that Calvinism and arminianism was supposed to be a debate. I believe what the Calvinists teach or believe before I ever knew these two words. I can't believe that we are debating the Bible. The Bible is not to be debated, it is to read and learn and grow in our Christian life here on Earth. Get away from the terms arminianism and Calvinism. Read your Bible and Learn and Grow from the Bible and from praying to the Lord, to give you understanding.
@@sherrytruitt1028 It's about interpretations and understandings. Even you have your own perspective from which you draw your conclusions. That's called a hermeneutic. Both of these groups have read the Bible and have come to different conclusions. A good debate is to figure out why that is. Either group A is wrong, group B is wrong, or most likely, they are both wrong in many aspects. But no point in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Best, as iron sharpens iron, to surigically remove the cancer, but keep the healthy parts.
Thanks Leighton Flowers, all this years, I did not know I was a provisionist until I heard videos like this.
Great debate. In the end Flowers has it. Remember: "God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being."
15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
(Romans.9:15-16)
9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began
(2tim.2:9)
13But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through ]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
(2th.2:13)
Amen 🙏
These verses can't make it anymore clear. Please Give full glory to God's grace . Sovereign free grace is clearly taught in God's Word. Also scripture teaches the responsibility of man.
Christ died for all. But
All who are truly regenerated born again are the elect.
God is all knowing, powerful and ordained everything that comes to pass from all eternity cause He is God and He evry right to have mercy on whom He pleases.
Amen
acts 17:27
@@stevenaguilera9202 Amen. I guess God didn't know about regenerating people before they can believe!
But remember Mike you don’t seek God no one seeks after God all have gone astray as Paul has said.
Though this verse says that they would seek God God first has to change their heart so they do seek
@@MikejMartin Well I see no evidence that people are regenerated before they come to Christ. God can draw men by his Spirit's conviction, the preaching of the Gospel, or by miracles, but in the end they decide if they will follow Christ. "No one seeks God" is a hyperbole, sometimes found in Psalms, which Paul used to show that all men are sinners, but he wasn't trying to show no one seeks God without first being regenerated, amen? God bless.
My jaw dropped when the Calvinist rebuked Jesus for "not being very helpful" during Leighton's question period. Bro, if you think for one second Jesus isn't very helpful to your doctrine it's a red flag your doctrine is wrong.
I couldn't believe that. Like, is this for real!! 😱😱😱
Boom
@@TheGillimcwilli why couldn't you believe that a Calvinist would be arrogant with anyone who disagreed with their lies ? Even GOD..
Can you imagine telling believers: actually we need to follow Calvin here, rather than Jesus? Regarding compassion for the lost, Jesus actually gets it wrong!
@@chaddonal4331 They follow the wrong JC.
at 17:20 Webbon says, "so why is it that we come to different conclusions?" Well, if your systematic is true, because God deternined you to.
😆 the truth is, it is because Calvinism is obviously false... 🙄 literally if I read the Gospel to a 5 year old then told them about Calvinism they would think it is not right. It boggles my mind how an adult that is capable of a 10th grade reading comprehensive can read the Bible and still be a Calvinist.
@1:26:25 Was the moment this went south for Calvinism and Webbon. However, much respect to Webbon. He truly engaged the other side and presented his position with grace.
More like Calvinism took a nosedive. Its unfortunate that one can be so indoctrinated, that they'll even overlook the very necessity of the Messiah just to hold fast to their view.
1:26:39 - Joel "I don't think Jesus is particularly helpful here."
Jesus isn't helpful to Calvinism... you don't say?!
@@pateunuchity884 What is the purpose of what you said here?
You're just deflecting the weight of the above statement by presenting all kinds of scary ideas that you think your Calvinism will keep you safe from. But Calvinism not biblical and it's logically untenable. Pray that you can read His word with fresh eyes unburdened by the system you've grown so fond of.
I noted those as well, @Dustin. Sounds to me as if calvinism wants Jesus to be like Calvin instead of Calvin to be Christ-like. Sad.
@@pateunuchity884 ?
1:21:35 for the Calvinist to essentially scoff at what the Hebrew writer says in Heb 4, is in and of itself enough to reject his doctrine.
Hebrews 4:12 (NKJV) For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Following Joel's argument that coins and sheep cannot respond then neither can God, because the Kingdom is described as a pearl and a net, neither of which can respond.
LA MONEDA Y LA OVEJA NO RESPONDEN POR QUE ILUSTRAN LA MUERTE ESPIRITUAL DEL HIJO PRODIGO QUE SI VUELVE EN SI. ¿DONDE UNA OVEJA O MONEDA VUELVEN EN SI?
Love your enthusiasm Dr Flowers
Enthusiasm comes with the good news of Jesus Christ! Calvinism strips one of joy and peace.
He lost
Remember. You cannot have a loving relationship unless both parties enter it willingly, and from their own free will.
So, if you are drowing and I save your life, and as a result you are my friend, does that mean you are unwilling in the relationship because I didn't give you a choice whether I was going to save you or not?
Actually, you can’t have a relationship with a dead person; therefor the Holy Spirit-without our permission- brings dry bones to life in a sovereign, decisive act of _His_ will, not ours. That’s what the Bible teaches. “Dead in your sins and trespasses” means _dead._ the Pelagian heresy is disgusting, and Flowers is a heretic in that tradition.
You guys are so silly lol.
Love isn't a metaphor.
Drowning is.
Being dead Is.
Love is literally what is going on in real life.
Put your metaphors back in your playbox, let's please deal with truth and reality.
We're talking about actual meaningful love.
Nobody is physically dead.
Nobody is literally drowning.
We are literally in a mutually loving relationship.
If you don't believe that, may God have mercy on your souls.
@@matthewdyer2926 ummmmmmm. Lol
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
- Romans 8:5-8
Joel said in his closing argument, “God is for God” that He only seeks His own glory 🤔🤔 Major contradiction to what 1 John 4:8 & 1 Corinthians 13 teaches - God is Love … And Love is Not Self Seeking …
Nor does it rejoice in evil . To say that God is seeking only His glory , Is a major misrepresentation of God’s Character / Attributes and depicting Him as a Narcissist . This definitely gave me more material & preparation to defend my provisonist view.
Finally someone who can correctly (at least in parts) represent provisionism. Cudos to Joel. he's better than James white and other leading Calvinists in represnting other view correctly. Dr. Leighton did a great job as usual. I pray for the calvibist audience who is changing his view. May God help him in his journey.
Except for Joel’s opening statement was a complete purposeful misrepresentation of what Leighton believes. Done purposefully to set up a strawman so that he has something to defeat because he can’t defeat the truth Leighton actually brought to him.
Totally agree, I can name at least ten Calvinist that can engage and do a much better job than James White all due respect.
At 2:03 the individual asks Bro Webbon how a person can be *ASSURED* of salvation. Piper, who is the "Go-To" for many/most Calvinists for answers says this...
_"These works of faith, and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the Spirit that come by faith, are necessary for our final salvation. No holiness, no heaven (Hebrews 12:14). So, we should not speak of getting to heaven by faith alone in the same way we are justified by faith alone."_
To ME, this is a perversion of the TRUE gospel of Christ.
Answer: No. Verse: Eph 1:13 In whom ye also after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
I really don't understand how Calvinism can exist with verses like this that clearly say, in context, the way it actually works. They're so used to trading in the truth for a lie that they can't see the truth anymore :(
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 I guess Calvinism provides the neccesary Groupthink some need to stay on top in every conversation. The power to declare who is saved and not is important to them. Isn’t it ironic that this verse Eph 1:13 disproving their foundational doctrines is right smack in the middle of a chapter they claim as their own? 😊
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 Yeah... they literally have to overlook Scripture because they hold Calvinism as their highest authority. The more I learn and listen from Calvinists the more disgusted and sad I get. These people are sadly, false Christians. Manichaean Gnostics Christianized. They are in the snare of the devil. Pray for them.
Leighton Flowers made it so clear that calvanism is a doctrine that makes God unjust, unloving and nonsense.
One of God's Generals Dr. Charles Stanley In Touch Ministries passed into Eternity this morning. I am letting the Body of Christ know this for tribute. Dr. Charles Stanley served God unto the very end. Amazing warrior for the Lord! Rest in Peace Soldier. God is raising up many others now.
It’s too bad his son is a complete heretic though. Very said.
Joel's assumption that the actual raising of Lazarus by Jesus has soteriological significance on par with Jesus' PARABLES, is odd. I see this as eisegesis, not exegesis. The raising of Lazarus is to demonstrate Jesus' authority over death, a sign that He is indeed who He claims to be. It isn't a parable, and it isn't to illustrate Calvinistic soteriological assumptions.
"what man would ever seek for God?" (10:00) I'd like to know what calvinists do with Acts 17:27 that states: that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us - this sounds like man can seek for and find God
If I am lifted up I WILL DRAW ALL Men to MYSELF..
For the grace that saves has appeared to ALL MEN..
Yes, very clear a 4 year old can understand it. Shocks me how blind Calvinism makes people.
@@learn-about-God So you're a universalist?
@@benjamincase1427 Why does every Calvinist not understand that Universalism is only an issue for you? You are the ones that improperly define the word "draw" like it means "irresistible grace", when nothing of the sort is even in the Bible. Draw means to attract. (It is an affectionate attraction)... a good example would be not seeing your father for several years and then you see him one day. You would be drawn to go talk to him.
So, just because in John 12 when Jesus says that If He is lifted up from the earth, He will draw all men to Himself... that does not mean Universalism. It just means that all men will have the ability to come to Him through the Gospel, as preached by the Apostles.
@@learn-about-God Assuming that's a no, is it your position then that Christ's sacrifice wasn't sufficient to save everyone for whom it was offered?
The Total Victory of Christ RUclips channel
More familiar with Leighton, but I like both men and think both are genuinely seeking God. May we all be brought into a better understanding of Him.
................I am no longer a Calvinist
Read The Potters Freedom by Dr. James R White and Salvation by Grace by Matthew Barrett and What is Reformed Theology? by RC Sproul. I bet you were never a true Calvinist to begin with.
@@CaseyCovenant, what a ridiculous statement, to say that he may not have been a true Calvinist to begin with. Do you realize how cult-like that sounds?
Nathan Hellrung Question, was he causally predetermined by God to be a fake Calvinist then later renounce true Calvinism? Why would God do that according to Calvinism?
@@nateperez6587, no. Leighton by his own free will chose to be a Calvinist, and based on what he has said I don't see any reason to believe he was a fake Calvinist. Why would God do what you said according to Calvinism? The only thing we can conclude is that He did it to bring Himself the most glory.
Nathan Hellrung So God chose people before the foundations of the world to reject Calvinism which according to Calvinism is the truth. Then God (according to Calvinism) has them go throughout their whole life rejecting Calvinism causing division amongst the church and making the Bible look like it contradicts itself because it says that God is not the author of sin and confusion. what type of glory does he get from that?
Collosians 2:12 evidently stumped Pastor Webbon irrecoverably. I wonder if he remains confused/unable to answer that onbvious contradiction to the Calvinist systematic.
There are two phrases from the Calvinist that I found stunning. “Jesus isn’t being very helpful here”. I hear that, as saying, “he is not cooperating with my interpretation”. Also, he said “Jesus was a good Calvinist”. Stunning.
My jaw dropped when I heard that
Your poor little god can do nothing about evil.
@@ThomasCranmer1959 on the contrary. God is sovereign. His will can never be thwarted. your understanding of God is that He is the author of evil. With a Calvinistic God, who needs the devil. It’s no wonder why the system creates and supports so many atheists.
@mayorrodgers7446 You are outright lying. Your view is that God's love causes evil. Your god decided to give Adam libertarian free will, foreknowing that Adam would choose evil. So how does libertarian free will get God off the hook?
Secondly, God does not need any creature. Satan is merely an instrument in God's hand. God predestined the fall of Satan from heaven and the fall of Adam in the garden of Eden.
God is sovereign and His decretal will cannot be thwarted. Before the fall Adam's will was not free from God's decretal will. After the fall Adam's will was enslaved by sin.
I have no idea what your reference is in regards to Jesus. However, Jesus was fully human and limited in every way any other human is limited in His human nature. The hypostatic union means that neither of two natures is changed by the other in the hypostatic union of the divine nature and human nature.
The whole issue I have with the Calvinist explanation is that he has the Holy Spirit performing a work separate and apart from the gospel. He actually puts the gospel as a secondary means of salvation.
Not a secondary means. There is only one means and that is grace through faith. Faith may take place after regeneration but it is not another means of salvation. It is the result of having a new spirit.
@@OC3707 is faith and regeneration two separate things?
I love this debate!
I usually watch Dr. James White debates and Dr. Michael Brown but this debate is very helpful, it has different perspective.
Both lost as the devil antichrists. So, what's the point?
@Aaron Marshall How are they antichrists?
What view would you say is Biblical?
Not asking to be contentious. Just curious on your perspective on the ordeal.
@@GhostBearCommanderhe has no clue they aren’t antichrists. He must think himself perfect to say such a thing
God has predestined me to watch this debate and reject Calvinism.
That's funny! 😁
As a Calvinist, this is hilarious. 😂Blessings.
Exactly. Just like he hardened Pharaohs heart. Or did he ask pharaoh for permission first?🧐
Or just like he asked king Nebuchadnezzar if he could turn him into a mentally ill animal.
Or just like he asked Jacob and Esau which one to hate?
Oh that’s right he didn’t ask for permission why???
Because he’s God and he does whatsoever he desires and you sir CANNOT STAY HIS HAND
❤❤😂😂
I would certainly hate being a TULIP Calvanist and having to defend the "T" Word. He's already called receiving the gospel a Work. That's silly. Faith is not work.....faith is a gift.
Leighton had him cornered from the get go and defeated from the get go. There are too many obvious and blatant contradictions from the Calvinistic worldview which leads to absurdity.
Pat Eunuchity Truth over tradition is what I say. Unless the particular tradition is in line with the truth... If that makes sense.
Ya I didn't think so at all. As a provisionist, primarily because of Flowers, I think that Webbon was stating his case more clearly and succinctly at first. Flowers didn't hit his stride until the question and answer period and finally came out on top.
Seeing Leighton flowers 'debate' is embarrassing. He 'debated' James White on Romans 9 or should I say did not even go near the text. Why? Because he exposes his inability to defend his Arminian position. Cringy.
shane mahoney the fact that guy actually think Leighton is an Arminian just highlights your ignorance and doesn’t give any credence to your comment at all.
Very cringey.
Pat Eunuchity I hold to the teachings of Jesus Christ and His Word which never needed reforming.
Everyone's gansta until Flowers brings out *3* water bottles
😂😂😂
😂
Flowers gangsta untill James White comes in
@@emanuilgoshev350 that was a terrible joke, relax.
@@emanuilgoshev350 James White would probably just be like "Well, I'm terribly disillusioned that he apparently is just here to drink water. I was expecting for him to talk more Romans 9".
This after listening to Flower's speak for 20 minutes on Romans 9.
Love how Joel just tosses out the rules in cross-examination at 1:16 to make statements instead of asking questions.
It's hard listening to Pastor Joel it grieves my heart.
Joel is a calvin gamer he is very confusing and losing this debate badly!!!!! WHAT ABOUT HIS CHURCH A FALSE TEACHING? he is awful!
Joel is so cringe, it hurts.
@@srourfamilyLeighton loss it’s so obvious
@@Crusader926 If you think Leighton lost you have brain damage.
We all must do our part and spread the good news be bold be brave be humble
2:21:41 "That Word has 2 purposes, to save but also to further justify God in His condemnation for those God choses not to save. God can say on that final day, I gave you...I did this, I did that, I did this, I did that... and you refused." Ok... but your entire point as a Calvinist is that they had NO ABILITY TO NOT REFUSE as the non-Elect. I.e., once again, Calvinists arguing the premise that God condemns you for a choice God Himself made for you before you were born. Calvinism: God puts you in a room with 4 walls and no door, tells you to leave through the door, and then condemns you for not finding and walking through the door (that He never put in the room to begin with). Please make it make sense.
The knee capping occurs at 1:23:45 if you’re curious. Not being mean, but this is an important moment people should watch
Knee capping 😂 but so true.
That was a fierce opening statement from Flowers!
Leighton’s opening statements didn’t even sound like an opening to a debate. It just sounded like he was sharing The Gospel. Thank you Flowers. Ultimately though, thank you LORD.
Yes!!! It’s amazing how simple the gospel becomes when you drop Calvinism
Some questions for the Calvinistic group:
Do you believe that God is Sovereign enough to predetermine his creatures to possess free will?
If so, how could that free will bring His Sovereignty into question?
If not, how then is the Calvinistic view of God truly Sovereign?
@Harold Zwingley Exactly. Which is all the more reason to believe in it.
We couldn't deserve hell at all if we didn't have free will. We wouldn't have any responsibility.
Did Joel say Jesus’ humanity prevented Him from knowing who the elect were, and then later say He knew who they were?
1:28:50 Here he says Christ is giving us an example of what we should act like by giving us the impression that He wants all to be saved.
1:44:55 But here He says He knows all about it.
Either Joel is contradicting himself or…is he implying that Jesus is lying or being hypocritical?
I guess this is what happens when you have to interpret each verse in a way that doesn't conflict with your presupposed systematic.
20:20 “and don’t go bragging about that free gift I just gave you” AHAHSHDHSJAJ I LOVE YOU LEIGHTON
Wow. That was a pretty rough answer on assurance of salvation. How can someone quote 1 John and then say it’s intention is for you to walk away with “some assurance?” The problem is that 1 John is tests of Fellowship, not assurance. “I write these things” is written 3 times within, and is talking about the purpose of immediate preceding text. 5:13 and the immediate preceding paragraph do bit on assurance. It talks about the testimony, which is that God has given everyone who believes in the Son, eternal life. So, assurance is based on God’s word. The essence of trusting Christ is that you’re confident in him FOR salvation. Calvinism totally muddies the water on assurance. It’s so sad.
There's really no assurance in Calvinism, because Calvinism doesn't teach what the Bible teaches.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 There is assurance in Calvinism. Don't take my word for it, consider Spurgeon to the disappointing Christian: "If the professed convert distinctly and deliberately declares that he knows the Lord’s will but does not mean to attend to it, you are not to pamper his presumption, but it is your duty to ASSURE him that he is not saved"
@@williammarinelli2363 My comment was made to point out the fact that a Calvinist can never be sure they are saved, because it's not by believing that they have life, (thought that's what the bible says), no, for a calavinist, it's by being one of God's elect that they are saved. But they have no ability to even know they are elect. They can think they are, and hope they are, but there is no real assurance of salvation in Calvinism... especially when they think that we cannot understand spiritual things at all without being regenerated and prechosen.
The very mind a Calvinist would be using to evaluate their status is completely depraved, according to their doctrine, to the point where they will never do good, or believe/understand correct theology unless regenerated... but how do they know they've been regenerated? Can they trust their mind to properly evaluate things? How will they know their mind has been renewed? How do they know that their one of the few, specially chosen people to be saved, and not chosen to be damned? If the natural man cannot understand spiritual things, how do they know they're not using the same 'ol depraved mind they've always had? By looking at good works? By trying to find fruits of the Spirit? Do they see enough? Might they try and work harder, to have more assurance that they are saved, and then become confused about whether or not works are salvific?
If it's not by believing that we have life, but instead "be chosen by God so that He'll save you", then you may just be waiting around for the rest of your life for a time where you somehow feel chosen.
Oy... Calvinism is disgusting.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 We're in violent agreement. My observation was that Spurgeon could presumably look at someone else and see into his heart and assure them that they were not saved. Silly me, I thought only God can see the heart. Tongue and cheek aside - you're absolutely correct. If they can't quantify a "good enough" that constitutes a threshold of perseverance, then they cannot have assurance. Thanks.
This was a fantastic debate and an example of how Provsionist and Calvinist, as brothers in Christ should interact.
Dr. Fowers, your presentations and rebuttals were spot on, well done!
Flowers is heretical on several points. He is a self avowed pelagian when he says that people become sinners when they reach an age of accountability.
Psalm 58:3 (KJV 1900): The wicked are estranged from the womb:
They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalm 51:5 (KJV 1900): Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
And in sin did my mother conceive me.
Exodus 20:5-6 (KJV 1900): Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
@@ThomasCranmer1959 laughable. Tell me, have you even read Pelagian?
@@ThomasCranmer1959 at what point does Flowers say people become sinners at the age of accountability?
Give me a source.
@@DrVarner It's in the Q&A at the end and during the debate. He flatly said that people do not inherit a sinful nature from their parents. Even Arminians do not deny original sin. John Wesley has an entire sermon on original sin in his 52 Standard Sermons.
Furthermore, Flowers is too dense to realize that Whitefield's doctrine of effectual call is the same thing as regeneration.
As for Colossians 2:12? It equates the resurrection of Christ with God's raising of the sinner from the dead. Through faith? That is the immediate response to being raised from spiritual death:
Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV 1900): Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Ephesians 2:1-6 (KJV 1900): And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
@DrVarner I think you mean Pelagius. Yes. I read except during my seminary training at Asbury. Jerry Walls was my apologetics professor. Walls convinced me to become a Calvinist because his arguments were so bad.
The eisegesis by Calvinists of Ephesians 2:8-9 in conflating faith as the gift being referred to instead of the general thought being articulated, that is; that salvation through grace is the gift being referred to - is rampant! Listening in May of 2023!
9:12 he said that non Calvinists say that Calvinists fail to take the weight of the Gospel power, while Calvinist will say that non Calvinists lack to put enough weight on man's sinfulness?
So what the Calvinist says is that mans sin over powers the power of the Gospel, so that it is impossible for God to save them.
I'm listening to the closing remarks and when I got to about the 1:45 mark what pastor Joel is showing is what every devoted Calvinist shows: that even when shown CLEAR scriptures that faith, belief, and repentance are BEFORE being saved they blatantly reject those and then, as pastor Joel just did, say that faith first is nowhere to be found in scripture. It is a willful blind rejection of the Bible so as to maintain their doctrine of Calvinism. Secondly, you will also notice how he, as typical of Calvinists, misrepresents what those who reject Calvinism believes. He went on to say that 'there are some who think they can work up their own faith', Leighton Flowers made it absolutely plain that this is not the case. He plainly said that faith IS a gift FROM GOD similar to how our breathing is a gift from God. It's from God. The contention is whether or not God makes it available to all or only gives it to those he regenerates....after the fact. What I see from pastor Joel is typical of how Calvinism twists the minds of believers so that they end up perverting scripture when it challenges their doctrine and it causes them to slander and misrepresent those individuals who speak out and show the errors of Calvinism.
I picked that up as well in the last comments. It was upsetting because he was very careful to not make that mistake during cross-examination. Yet, he didn’t realize that his closing statement was a slap in the face to his own previous efforts to not misrepresent. The problem is that the response in faith does not neatly fit into the Calvinist’s box of accusations.
Calvinists are not Christians. They are a gnostic sect. Manichaean Gnosticism Christianized. It is sick... then they run around wanting us bible believing Christians to call them "brothers" and "sisters" as they continue to reject the Gospel and Christ and try to convert baby Christians into their gnostic cult.
1:59 Joel basically is saying that he has the right doctrine and that Leighton is not as mature as him. This is a point that causes great grief, division, and stress among friends and families. Calvinists believe they are right and more “enlightened” than all other believers. This belief causes them to spend a great amount of time in heresy hunting, trying to convert Christians to Christianity, and leaving massive division in the wake.
I think this is the most clearest verse concerning the matter in the whole of scripture.
Ephesians 1:13
New King James Version
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
We trusted(in Christ) after we heard the Word (what word?) The Gospel of Salvation then what? we believed(place faith trust).....The result sealed with the Holy Spirit (Salvation).
It's that simple to me no need for me to look for anything else.
Be blessed all! 🙏
It should be this simple for everyone
Yes
Hearing the gospel, having believed, then sealed with the Holy Spirit (regeneration).
Joel was very close to fairly representing Provisionism. Where he fell short was when he conflated Provisionism’s Responsibility with being a work, when Responsibility is simply a response in faith or not-faith to the work that God has already provided. This resolves any accusation of a works-based salvation in the system.
Only an idiot thinks that accepting help from Someone when drowning means contributing to his salvation.
I am no longer a calvinist either. God convicted me way before i seen this. It's just confirmed now.
What did he convict you of exactly?
Faith simply IS. To EVERY man has been granted a measure of faith. To us is given the choice what to do with it - for life or death, blessing or cursing, God or the devil. Everyone puts their measure of faith IN something. He who chooses to put faith IN God, as He intended, to them He through His Son has given the power to become sons of God (regeneration)
Leighton Flowers is an absolute expert in this area of theology. Well spoken thought provoking questions. Bravo.
No he isn’t. He’s an expert at muddying clear waters and twisting the word of God to fit his carnal fancy, but he’s abysmal at soteriology.
@@matthewdyer2926Take your ball and go home, you baby. If you can't understand the pure logic of his presentation then you better live with tutors.
Once save always saved? You just pointed out another inconsistency with provisionalism. @Animosity-yj7um
@Animosity-yj7um Correct. Salvation is conditioned upon you putting your Faith in Christ as your Lord and Savior. From a human perspective we can only tell if someone is saved or not by their fruit. So if someone is actively living in sin and saying that Christ is not their Lord than yes I am not going to think they are Saved even if they previously confessed to know Jesus. Calvinist would think what? Their previous Faith and "good works", even as a Calvinist lets say, was just God fooling that individual into thinking that God had chose him as one of the Elect? How do you know you are Elect my friend? God could just be fooling you. I believe based on scripture that I have assurance because scripture says that "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God," Eph 2:8. Salvation is a gift of God that anyone can accept if they put their Faith in Jesus. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.' Romans 6:23
I simply hope that everyone interested on this discussion will continue to grow in the grace and understanding of our Lord. Do not let this be just about entertainment.
If Calvinism was true people would only grow as much as God decreed for them to grow.
Under provisionism, it's very possible and hopefully likely.
Under Calvinism, the only ones who could possibly grow in faith and understanding are the ones listening who were "chosen".
The rest are out of luck.
22:43 the wording Dr. Flowers uses is very interesting to me. “And by responsibility, we mean, yes, what it connotes; the ability to respond, in faith, to the inspired truth that was sent to HELP set people free from their bondage.”
John 8:34-36 (NASB):
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
It’s THE truth, THE Son, that makes men free. The gospel is proclaimed to all men, those who have been set free by the Son will cling to the mercy and grace offered at the cross of Christ.
Yes... The Son sets free whosever confesses his bondage and places trust in Him.
Jesus was sent that believers would have everlasting life.
As a dyed in the wool Reformed Protestant for 30 years, but who is now exploring what the early church fathers believed and as a result am becoming more open minded, I found the statement “Isn’t Jesus’ marveling at their unbelief like marveling that people can’t breathe underwater?” worth the price of admission alone. Thank you for this presentation. One more thing, the Calvinist’s style of delivery feels unnatural and over-the-top. I know a few Reformed Baptists who love preaching like this, but it’s so theatrical so as to be distracting.
Your ignorance of the doctrine of the incarnation rivals that of Flowers. Jesus was a genuine human being and a man. He was also fully God. But was Jesus omniscient in his human nature? No. Try again
Theatrical. That’s it. I was looking for the right word in my mind and thought ‘dramatic’ but theatrical nails it.
The Calvinist's style not only feels that way, but also full of falsehoods about the other perspective. For example, the insistence that non-Calvinists believe that they can earn their salvation by faith. Calvinists consistently label faith as a work in this case because it holds up their strawman!
@@ThomasCranmer1959 your statement is confusing to me. Perhaps you can help me out. First off it does not seem to address anything that is being said in this thread. Besides that; has Flowers very indicated that he thinks that Jesus was omniscient on earth? Genuine question. I haven’t heard him say that.
@@mayorrodgers7446 Flowers equivocates and dodges the real issues and plays to his audience. Did Flowers say Jesus is not omniscient in His human mind and soul? Yes or no?
This made me affirm Provisionism perspectives even more. For the first time, it actually feels like a heavier logical understanding of scripture.
It certainly is.
Yikes
It denies many scriptures and takes Gods sovereignty and gives it to man’s decisions and actions and WILL (the exact thing it says it is not by). Humans want control and cannot stand the idea of not working for heaven, but if you are in the book…it wasn’t because you chose to be written in it lol
@Ben Pat Those who will hear," Depart " from the lips of our Savior, are I deed free willers. They were explaining to Jesus,that they thought was their Savior ,that they did MANY " good works" by their free will, when they didn't have to and this is also the reason that they thought they believed, that THEY ACCEPTED JESUS, WHEN THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO. This is the wickedness that Jesus was talking about. So when Jesus told them that He never knew them, He was telling them that He never loved them.
The wicked man denies that Faith is a gift from God,they want to believe that slaves to sin can conjure faith by themselves,in this God hating state,and then trade it to God so God must give them the new birth and salvation .Question:If man can believe in their spiritually dead state,why would they then need the new birth?
I was raised believing I was chosen -one of the elect. One day as a young adult, I asked myself “how do I know I was chosen?” …And that brought me into years of looking for answers. The burden of election was a huge barrier and load to carry (the big pill to swallow) As I was reading God‘s word it said “my yoke is easy and my burden is light“. There is no way I can live with a calvinistic belief that God glorifies himself in the condemnation of his creation that he gave *no chance to be saved. Knowing before they even take their first breath, that he has pleasure in sending them to hell! Even saying that, I feel like I just blasphemed His Holy Name. I am so thankful for Dr. flowers once being a Calvinist, and now a provisionist as he speaks from experience as with myself.
I would say to the Calvinists, look to the attributes of God. A loving sacrificial God, who sent his son to die for us -would never purposely send innocent people to hell from before their birth even babies if they’re not “elect”.
I am to be Christlike. As a mother and grandmother I want to be like Christ, and strive to be like my Savior. But if I was like my Savior, then am I to throw some grand children into the fire and keep some out? God for bed! You are a Holy God, you are good, you are righteous, you are faithful, you are long-suffering, you are gracious, forgiving, “Not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” Now I can say “His yoke is easy and His burden is light” in my life.
Amen and amen.
Thst was the best response i have ever heard. Well said. Jesus said the we being evil know how to give good gifts, how much more our heavenly father. So are we more compassionate than he? Unfortunately some actually believe so. Calvanists would say we dont know what is good and evil, i happened to read in Genesis that was the tree that adam n eve ate from. All of humanity knows in their spirit what is good n evil. Again, very well said. Excellent.
I would rather be a Christian and follow Christ than follow a man called Calvin who's teaching is dangerous. If God chooses people for Salvation then it would appear that Jesus the Son of the living God died and suffered in vain.
"I would say to the Calvinists, look to the attributes of God. A loving sacrificial God, who sent his son to die for us -would never purposely send innocent people to hell from before their birth even babies if they’re not “elect”. "
This is a pretty flawed argument. There is no innocent person, we are all guilty of death and eternal damnation from the the womb. As the psalms say "In sin my mother conceived me". God doesn't send innocent people to hell because they were elect. God saves the very people who murdered his own Son (Jesus) from hell out of his loving kindness towards them. And whats more, he used the fact that they murdered his son as the means of saving them. Amen that God is loving and sacrificial, but to pretend that humans are ever innocent is to deny the scripture. The God of scripture saves even the most heinous creature of his choosing, not because that person deserves it, or was owed it, or chose it, but because of his own loving kindness.
Thers nothing biblical abt anything of your statement. We can't create our own image of God the way we want to believe Him. That's idolatry. Pagan view. Thers no darkness in God He is infinitely perfect in all His attributes and His word is perfect.
15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy
(Rom:9.15-16)
13But we are boundaries to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
(2th.2:13)
9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
(2tim:2.9)
Amen 🙏
There is no such thing as "chance".
Proverbs 16:33 (KJV 1900): The lot is cast into the lap;
But the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.
Leighton Flowers, clear explanation and true exegetical interpretation of scripture is why i'm a Provisionist.
I suggest you check out some of my comments
I’m a bit skeptical about the Provisionist perspective, I think it Originated with Leighton flowers. It seems to me that it is new.
@@aleczamora6993 How much of the antinicean fathers have you read?
@@pateunuchity884
You need to read more provisionist scholars. 😂
Calvinists think God only knows because he determined it. (Which is a fallacy of infinite regression)
@@pateunuchity884 I’ve heard Calvinist explain their view against middle knowledge like that.
The simple reading of one verse (Col 2:12), destroys the entire Calvinistic idea of regeneration preceding faith.
It’s almost comical.
Can you give me an explanation of that verse? And then explain to me what calvinism is?
Jeffrey hunt, sure.
Colossians 2:12 KJV
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
I could say a lot about this verse, but I’ll just keep it short. This verse shows we are raised THROUGH faith. The idea of some monergistic (all gods doing) regeneration, being required to happen, such that we can believe (have faith), just isn’t in the Bible.
This verse shows just the opposite of that idea. We hear the gospel message, we believe, we die with Christ in baptism (water baptism), and we are raised through faith (that’s mans part) of the operation of god, who has raised Christ from dead.
Pretty straightforward IMO.
Reformed theology (also referred to as Calvinism) is the typically presented with the TULIP acronym.
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Preservation of the Saints
In a nutshell:
T - man is totally depraved and cannot respond positively to the gospel message or anything of god unless god does an unrequested work in us first to make us able to respond.
U - God elected people from before the foundation of the world, to be gods elect and be saved somehow someway, no matter what. For everyone else, well, they were born just to sin and roast in hell for all eternity.
L - Christ’s atoning work was limited to only being for the elect (mentioned above). If you weren’t elect from the foundation of the world, then Christ’s atoning work was never meant for you and you never had any real chance of coming to Christ or going to heaven. Renew me, because of total depravity, you can’t come to god because you can’t respond positively to the gospel appeal.
I - God will irresistible draw his elect, such that they will have the inclination and capability to respond to god, and those who are elect will certainly respond and be saved. This is the unrequested work I referenced in total depravity above.
P - The saved ones (elect, saints, etc), will be preserved in Christ, regardless of how much they disobey, no matter how much they sin. The amount you sin and disobey will only impact how much you suffer in this life, but it doesn’t prevent you from reaching heaven.
That’s Calvinism/reformed theology in a nutshell shell. It’s completely unbiblical.
Faith is the means, that verse doesn’t establish where that faith comes from, it isn’t attempting to state the origin of faith but the means. Faith is the gift of God.
Michael Borg , the Bible tells us where faith comes from.
Romans 10:17 KJV
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Again, Calvinism is not biblical. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of god (ie, the gospel). No mention of unrequested, forceful actions from god.
Pat Eunuchity yes, they affirm the gospel is God’s Grace to humanity, faith is mans gift to God. They do not believe in any inward working of the spirit prior to conversion (which Phillippians 1:6 contradicts). To the provisionist God ‘initiates’ Grace by the gospel itself. It is up to man to make up the rest and God is a mere beggar of a savior but not an actual savior.
Pleasure always to hear and learn from Joel. Who also has the gift of not wanting to murder his opponents. Like the self important high and might “Doctor” James White.
Which brings me Joel. A brother in Christ also gifted with a peaceful spirit. Yet still hindered in the race with faith in guy named Calvin above the immutable word of God
Edit. Pleasure to hear and learn from Leighton. Not Joel
Do you mean murder their opponent like John Calvin did?
I wrestled with my stance on this issue some time ago because I really enjoyed preachers such as MacArthur, Sproul and many others, yet in the end found Calvinism to be a pill too hard to swallow. This was after weeks and months of listening to debates, reading and praying with scripture and looking at all the verses that get thrown around. Amazingly I came to the same stance as Mr. Flowers here that the argument from the Calvinist side just appears illogical and unreasonable in light of scripture. In regard to salvation it’s like telling my friend who has no legs to walk to me then faulting him when he remains as he is.
I still admire many Calvinist teachers and watch them often but I feel as though how a person got saved often plays into their understanding of salvation. Some people don’t need as much convincing of their brokenness and need for salvation. The gospel is hitting them on one side of the head and their sin is throbbing the other and it’s all they can do to cry out to God for rescue. Others require Gods intervention in such a way that drastically interjects the course of their life so as to tear down the walls they built up around themselves to hide from God. This is why I empathize with the Calvinist stance but do not think it is accurate. If God is good and not a God of chaos, it seems good and orderly that in his sovereignty he allows the gospel to go out and allows for man’s response to it ,justifying both the responsibility of man and the goodness of God in his judgement. The Calvinist view of sovereignty seems to imply that God needs to control every aspect of man like a robot or puppet then toss him away when he is done with him all the while faulting him for his actions. I personally think God is so secure in his sovereignty that allowing man to respond isn’t a threat to his will or a theft of his glory but a justification of it. In allowing man a response he establishes the evidence of the truth of his word and leaves the rebel without an excuse against God.
I really can’t understand from the Calvinist perspective what Gods purpose in creating unbelievers would be. If the belief of the elect rests on the choosing of God, then the unbelief of the non elect would necessarily have to hinge on his not choosing. This makes it illogical that the lack of response to God would fall on men. If God is the catalyst for belief how could it not fall on God when man does not respond to him.
I accept that it is well within Gods purview to do whatever he pleases with whomever as he is God and creator but his word does not cast him in the light that I think many Calvinists views of him do. In addition if God wills that no one perish, why not call all to salvation instead of only some? I believe he does, as flowers demonstrated, through his Word and the truth of the gospel. This debate laid the issues out nicely. As I said, I still love watching my Calvinist brothers such as Mr. Webbon. I enjoy theology applied and his interaction with the guys from haunted cosmos. I just find this to be one of those issues that the church may have to agree to disagree on and continue debating until Christ comes.
The point Leighton Flowers was making giving him a t-shirt "free gift" was that Joel can WILLINGLY EXCEPT OR REJECT THE FREE GIFT.
Haha thanks for explaining that. I felt so dumb that I didn’t get it. This is all new to me.
But Jesus' point in John 6 is that if the Father gives an individual to the Son, he will be saved... There is no option to reject God's salvation for the one for whom Jesus made atonement.
@@lawrencestanley8989 "Jesus' point in John 6 is that if the Father gives an individual to the Son, he will be saved.." is it? is that what it means to be given to the Son? Because I'm pretty sure every knee will bow and there will be A LOT of knees that are going to go directly to hell after they recognize that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God The Father...(John 5:27, Luke 19:27, Rev 19:15,)
@@inTruthbyGrace
You are equating adoption as sons with the forced obeisance of a conquered enemy?
Leighton Flowers is no tulip.
the Bible clearly illustrates that FAITH must be placed into Christ prior to being BORN AGAIN
Where?
Pat Eunuchity God was the first mover.
He sent His Son.
Wake up.
João Pedro Macimiano Trabbold where???
Ummmm:
... According to Romans 10:10 you BELIEVE UNTO righteousness not the other way around.
You’re NOT made righteous first so as to believe:
ROMANS 10:9,10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED.
10 For with the heart man BELIEVETH UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS; and with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation.
***************************************
...According to Galatians 3:26 are we made children of God and then believe or do we believe first in order to become children of God?
GALATIANS 3:26
26 For ye are all the children of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus.
The order is crystal clear in this verse.
***************************************
...According to Ephesians 1:13 did you believe BEFORE or after you received the Holy Spirit?
EPHESIANS 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER THAT YE HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise,
The order is crystal clear in this passage that we are sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise AFTER we believe and NOT the other way around as you claim.
***************************************
...According to Galatians 3:14 we receive the promise of the Spirit THROUGH FAITH:
GALATIANS 3:14
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the spirit THROUGH FAITH.
The order is crystal clear in this passage that we receive the promise of the Spirit through FAITH and not the other way around as you claim.
***************************************
...According to Romans 3:22 is the righteousness of God BY faith or does faith come after the righteousness of God comes?
ROMANS 3:22
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE: for there is no difference:
The order is crystal clear in this passage the righteousness of God is unto all that BELIEVE and not the other way around as you claim.
***************************************
...According to John 20:31 do you have life first so as to then believe or do you believe so as to then have life?
JOHN 20:31
31 But these are written, THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE THROUGH HIS NAME.
*BELIEVE FIRST THEN HAVE LIFE.*
It doesn’t say you’re made alive so as to believe.
God’s word is written that you might believe!
NOT “your heart is changed that you might believe.”
***************************************
...According to Romans 4:3 was Abraham made righteous so as to believe, or did he have to believe FIRST?
ROMANS 4:3
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it was countered unto him for righteousness.
The order is crystal clear in this passage in that we’re counted righteous after we BELIEVE and not the other way around as you claim.
***************************************
...According to Romans 5:1,2 how do we access the grace of God?
Is it by faith?
Or do we access the faith by grace?
ROMANS 5:1,2
1 Therefore being justified BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also WE HAVE ACCESS BY FAITH INTO THIS GRACE wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
The order is crystal clear in this verse.
***************************************
...According to Acts 13:39 do you receive justification prior to faith in Christ?
Can you be born again before being justified???
OF COURSE NOT!
ACTS 13:39
39 And by him all that BELIEVE ARE JUSTIFIED from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
***************************************
...According to Acts 16:30,31 are you saved before believing or after believing?
Does this verse mention anything about having to be one of the chosen few and then regenerated first or is it simply BELIEVE?
ACTS 16:30,31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
***************************************
...According to John 7:38 do you have living water first before you believe or does it flow out AFTER you believe?
...According to Acts 7:39 do you receive Him by faith first and THEN God gives you the power of the Holy Spirit or is it the other way around?
JOHN 7:38
38 He that BELIEVETH on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which THEY THAT BELIEVE ON HIM SHOULD RECEIVE: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
*This scripture clearly says they that BELIEVE on Him receive the Holy Spirit.*
The Holy Spirit ISN’T given first so as to believe.
You don’t receive it UNTIL you believe.
***************************************
...According to Galatians 3:2-5 do you receive faith by the Spirit first or do you receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith?
According to Galatians 3:2 is this considered a work of the law or is Paul actually contrasting it to a work?
GALATIANS 3:2-5
2 This only would I learn of you, RECEIVED YE THE SPIRIT by the works of the law, or BY THE HEARING OF FAITH?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 HE THEREFORE THAT MINISTERETH TO YOU THE SPIRIT, and worketh miracles among you, DOETH HE IT by the works of the law, or BY THE HEARING OF FAITH?
Do you reject all these passages of scripture?
@@apilkey Nope, I don't reject them. But can you give me one, just ONE passage that talks about how your faith comes before being born again? You showed passages that show how faith precedes righteousness, or that faith precedes the seal of the Spirit.
João Pedro Macimiano Trabbold What do you think it means to be “born again”?
Being regenerated/quickened or born again is not simply a cute little heart change.
It’s a full on spiritual operation of God WITH CHRIST that involves your SPIRIT first and foremost.
...According to Romans 2:29 Regeneration/born again is the act of God which is a spiritual circumcision of the heart IN THE SPIRIT.
Therefore it’s impossible to be circumcised prior to Christ for the very act of circumcision is OF CHRIST:
ROMANS 2:29
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and CIRCUMCISION is that of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
***************************************
...According to Galatians 2:20 we’re crucified WITH Christ; therefore it’s impossible to be regenerated or quickened by the spirit beforehand.
We know this because nothing can be quickened lest it die FIRST.
And we also know we’re not quickened and then die because then we’d have to be quickened AGAIN a second time!
You die (crucified with Christ/buried in baptism) FIRST, and THEN you’re risen to new life WITH Christ by the very operation of God as a totally new creature with old things passed away.
This is 100% of God with zero human involvement.
...According to Galatians 2:20 we’re crucified WITH Christ:
GALATIANS 2:20
20 I am CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
A new heart is only a fraction of the operation.
Regeneration can only happen WITH Christ because it actually involves Him at the very centre.
You can’t remove Christ from the process as it revolves around Him.
It involves being BURIED with Him in spiritual baptism and being CRUCIFIED with Him and then RISING TO NEW LIFE having put off the man of sin and putting on the new man.
Totally new creature.
Totally new creation.
Old is passed away.
*How can you have all these things before or without Christ?*
*The process of regeneration gives you eternal life so how can you have eternal life BEFORE CHRIST?*
None of this is possible before coming to Christ and we know we come to Christ THROUGH FAITH.
We are born again when we’re raised to life with Christ and before we can be risen with Him we must die with Him.
*How can you be quickened before you die?*
If you're already regenerated then why do you need to hear the gospel you'd already be saved I don't get it
Yikes. This wasn't a debate. This was Leighton taking Calvinism behind the wood shed for an old time beating for 2 hours.
@@pateunuchity884 hahaha. James White's treatment of Leighton is what brought that on. You have only JW to thank for that
As do I. Those were some tasty hotdogs.
@@pateunuchity884 Leighton himself has reprimanded his viewers several times for their conduct towards Calvinists. That being said, we have free will, and people are inevitably going to do things you don't wish them to do. I can also say for certain that many followers of Soteriology 101 have been hurt by Calvinist theology and have an axe to grind. It's unchristlike to seek vengeance against those who wronged you theologically, but we can at least say that they act on their free will rather than being determined by either their nature or God to act that way.
@@pateunuchity884 Don't ask me, I'm not Leighton and I'm certainly not God.
@@pateunuchity884 I for one agree, that James White's books should probably be burned, not read. He has traded the truth for a lie and is teaching false doctrine, and unable to hear rebuke or correction.
@@pateunuchity884 I don't think Calvinists are heretics. I do think their position is untenable from a logical and biblical perspective. Many people on the provisionist camp do believe that they're heretics and it's something I wish people don't hold on to. Bitterness is unchristlike and does not allow for healing to happen.
Then agian, I'm a nobody; people aren't going to listen to me.
Citations work because it backs your words with the words of more esteemed people.
Is there a command to be saved? Yes, Acts 2:38 and especially Acts 17:30-31 “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world…”
One thing I notice about people who promote Calvinism is that they try to constantly redefine terms. It gets very confusing. It feels like relabeling. In this debate, he keeps saying they are “utterly depraved not totally depraved” (or vice versa? Honestly I forget now). But if I look up the definition of “utterly” in the dictionary it says “totally, completely, fully” etc. so they actually have the same meaning. But he is trying to say they are two totally different things. The Gospel is simple enough to be understood by every day people. Jesus chose fisherman to be disciples, not the scholarly teachers from the synagogues. We should not be making it confusing. It’s good news for all! Follow Jesus, seek the truth and you will find God there. If you are here from a Calvinist background and worry if you are elect…believe and you will be saved. If you believe in Jesus as your savior, you are elect. All who believe in him will be saved.
“Jesus is not particularly helpful”- I almost wrecked my car while driving when those words came out of the Calvinist’s mouth. How dare Jesus say something that does not neatly fit within a logical construct!!
What minute does he say that?
1:26:35
Romans 9: 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Though it’s stated like a hypothetical, the Potter certainly has that freedom. Which makes Paul’s point. Praise God for His mercy on the undeserving.
CONTEXT:
Roman's 9:1, 10:1, 11:1...
Paul is discussing the election of the Jews!!
Calvin's misses the context!
In the start of the cross examination I think Pastor Joel is making the Fallacy of Equivocation, probably unintentionally.
There are two different meanings of 'work' at play. One is the everyday meaning of 'any action', in that sense everything a human does is a work including the action of believing by faith.
However the Biblical meaning of 'work' in sotereological passages is always contrasted against faith. Hence, this second meaning can never be equated with the action of believing faith.
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.
As long as our "brothers" are not preaching a false gospel, another God, another Spirit and another Jesus. Let them be accursed.
You can't just both be right. There has to be a universal truth to these things. Anything else is heresy
I will go with the view that did not stem from Stoicism and Gnosticism, both which were called heresies by the apostles.
2:22:00 about means of grace: how an individual can be blamed for refusing God if he has been destined by God to refuse? How such a cheating would increase glory of God?
Calvinists lack simplicity of Christ praised in NT, and simplicity of heart so praised in OT. MY GOD IS NOT CHEATING - He will not blame me for my choice if it’s actually not my choice but His! God bless you and lead into truth! 🙏
It’s 2 months but Im writing this under the assumption that you haven’t received a satisfactory answer. St Thomas has an almost identical view of predestination as the Reformed (with some nuance) but we would agree on reprobation which is the topic of your question: how can God blame me for my choice when I was already foreordained to destruction?
In the Summa Theologiae, St Thomas tackles this question masterfully. I’ll copy and paste some of the text that is relevant to your question. If you want, you can read the whole section yourself.
Question 23: Predestination
Article 3: Wether God reprobates a man?
Objection 2 (I skipped Objection one because it’s not particularly relevant as I said before): If God reprobates any man, it would be necessary for reprobation to have the same relation to the reprobates as predestination has to the predestined. But predestination is the cause of the salvation of the predestined. Therefore reprobation will likewise be the cause of the loss of the reprobate. But this false. For it is said (Hosea 13:9): "Destruction is thy own, O Israel; Thy help is only in Me." God does not, then, reprobate any man.
Objection 3: Further, to no one ought anything be imputed which he cannot avoid. But if God reprobates anyone, that one must perish. For it is said (Ecclesiastes 7:14): "Consider the works of God, that no man can correct whom He hath despised." Therefore it could not be imputed to any man, were he to perish. But this is false. Therefore God does not reprobate anyone.
*On the Contrary* it is written (Malachi 1:2-3): "I have loved Jacob, but have hated Esau."
Reply to Objection 2. Reprobation differs in its causality from predestination. This latter is the cause both of what is expected in the future life by the predestined-namely, glory-and of what is received in this life-namely, grace. Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present-namely, sin; but it is the cause of abandonment by God. It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future-namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and deserted by grace. In this way, the word of the prophet is true-namely, "Destruction is thy own, O Israel."
Reply to Objection 3. Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said that the reprobated cannot obtain grace, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above (I:19:3), that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice. Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.
So basically what St Thomas is getting at in these replies (and you’ll see this in the Classical Reformed as well) is a distinction between reprobation and damnation. Reprobation is simply the decree to not give grace. The sinners response to this privation of grace by the contingency of their own free will is to sin. Thus on the basis of that sin is what damns the sinner. The predestination of the elect is a positive act of infusing grace into the soul, which moves the Will freely (regeneration) towards salvation. This is why Sproul, for example, is going to call double predestination asymmetrical. This is also why St Thomas says “reprobation by God differs in its causality from predestination”. One is a positive act and the other is a negative or “hands off” approach
In summary, what you are misunderstanding is secondary causality. This isn’t some Edwardian occasionalism where God works in everything immediately (which is blasphemy) but works and decrees things mediately according to the nature of the thing. So when we say that the reprobate are foreordained to destruction, this in no wise entails that there is no involvement of the will. God is not forcing this person to sin to fulfill His decree. His decree is brought to pass by the sinners own free will. This is what the Westminster confession of faith means in chapter 3: God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, *as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away,* but rather established.
Now if you are scratching your head thinking (assuming you watch Flowers often) “but I thought the Reformed don’t believe in free will?” The Reformed deny libertarian free will.
Hope this helped. God bless
The cross examination section was brutal for Joel. Calvinism teaches a distortion of God’s nature and plain Scriptural truth.
Now I know why Leighton did a review of the debate on his channel. Im confused just listening to Joel try to go around in circles without addressing actual verses... well I know that verse seems to say that, but...
I’m going to be a Provisionist until God predestines me to be a Calvinist.
He might not.
@@billyr9162 True, but that would mean I am doing His good will.
@@kdx1
Yep. If there is no liars then no one knows what the truth is.
@@billyr9162 Not sure what you mean. Do you want to explain?
@@kdx1
Good can't stand out of there is no bad.
OK so I still have a few issues with how one actually gets saved and why is it that I am a Christian and my wife isn't??...BUT...Pastor Joel completely lost me when he uttered these words: "I don't think Jesus is particularly helpful here" in the QandA when referring to Mark 6:6 at 1:26:32. Those words would be and should be enough to stop anybody embracing Calvinism full on. I mean come on...you have a serious problem if Jesus 'is not particularly helpful' to your theology 😂
02:06:00 one of the biggest downside and problems with Calvinism. You end up looking to self for confirmations of salvation. Instead of looking to the promise of God. Did God promise? Yes. Do I believe it? Yes. Than I have it. Period.
Listen I am not one of those that think Calvinist aren't Christians, I really want to have a generous orthodoxy, and allow for a big tent, but if Jesus isn't helpful 1:26:38 then I don't think we are worshipping the same God.
Leighton definitely won this debate. Did anyone else think that Joel was speaking with a somewhat funny accent or pronunciation of his words?
Some people just have a different speaking voice. He is used to preaching in a certain setting, and he went into preaching mode for his tone and style. I certainly don't think that lost him the debate. I think his arguments lost him the debate.
Troy Mulberry oh not I’m certain it didn’t. It was just slightly odd to hear is all. No knock against him at all. My apologies if you thought so.
I noticed it too and it is odd but yet and still I like it lol. It's satisfying for some reason.
Anyone else think that if someone judges a debate off of any thing other than the content (physical appearance,accent, tone,etc.) is void of any coherent thought?
@@triggerwarning2982 Agreed. However, if you are applying this passive-aggressively to OP, you would do well to know that was not the intention of the comment.
One of the best Calvinist/Traditionalist debates I've watched. Both were congenial to each other, and for the most part 'listened' to each other in an attempt to fully understand each others questions. I'm personally an ex-Calvinist turned Provisionalist, and I absolutely believe conversations like this that need to be had more often. Some topics, such as this one, are creating great divides within the body of Christ, and that needs fought against. And that's done by simply having these conversations, in this manner of respect and honor towards each other, regardless of which side you're on.
I'm glad to hear that you've been set free from calvinism as it is not from THE SPIRIT OF GOD .
May GOD bless and keep you brother oh hell no .
You have become a Pelegian if you follow Flower's flawed method.
@@ernestojlassus1354 you're so deceived. You simply don't believe a book called the Bible if you're a blasphemous calvinist . Calvinism is blasphemy as it deems CHRIST deceitful and distorted the gospel of CHRIST as it pushes limited atonement becoming an enemy of CHRIST .
@@ernestojlassus1354 you need to seriously study Pelagianism my friend, as well as Provisionalism, because neither I nor Leighton Flowers is even semi-Pelagian. No worries though, since I was obviously predestined to become an ex-Calvinist.
@@ernestojlassus1354
You must have been predetermined to leave a comment devoid of reason, logic, or persuasion. 😁
Calvinism is a crackpot theology that leads men to say, "I don't think Jesus is particularly helpful here." 1:26:30
Who was Hell created for? Is it for those who reject Jesus? If so, how can that be if they were never given the choice to accept Jesus?
Because God has exhaustive knowledge of the future, heaven was created for Satan, his demons, and all who never submit to Christ’s lordship. According to Calvinism, while they have the choice, they cannot and will not make the choice. But we should not feel sorry for man, because man willfully rejects God. There is no such thing as an innocent person (apart from Jesus).
@@Nathan-mf2yz how can one willfully reject Jesus if they were created to reject him?
@@karenroyal57 because we all have human wills. We make decisions every day. The problem is our wills are in bondage to sin. It’s not that humans are being forced to sin, but we choose it every single day in spite of God. We are free to do whatever we are most inclined to do at any particular moment, which for the one not regenerated by the Spirit is always sin (Romans 3:10-18, 8:7, Ephesians 2:1-2, etc.).
@@Nathan-mf2yz look, I know I’m saved by grace alone.. but for those who are saying or teaching the Word of God teaches only the elect are chosen to be saved, then I question why hell was created for those who were “not chosen “ to be coast into hell for not having the choice to choose
@@karenroyal57 Thanks for your reply sister. Both of us can absolutely agree salvation is by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone.
I’m a little confused what you meant when you quoted, “not chosen”. Where did you derive that quote from? I think one thing that may help explain the biblical teaching on man’s will is the London Baptist 1689 confession of faith chapter on free will:
“God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.
Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin, and by His grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he does not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.
This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only”
There are scripture verse citations explaining which passages each part of that was from if you google the 1689 confession chapter on free will
The good news of salvation through CHRIST ( the gospel )is not in the message of Calvinism .. The only news is you might be elect so give it a shot , you might get lucky..
I found this question in the live chat, "Question for Dr. Flowers.. how can God’s will be fulfilled if it is dependent on the choice of man? Does this make creation an experiment from God and he will just analyze the outcome of the randoms." My answer is simple, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance."
How can God be willing and still only elect certain ones to be saved?
Exactly. Also, if by will they are referring to God’s decrees, He doesn’t decree everything little move that occurs. There are certain things that He has certainly decreed and one way or another He will make them come about. The incarnation, the cross, His resurrection, His second coming, etc.
Many years ago James White wrote a book showing the truth about this verse. Read in context, the "not willing that any should perish" clearly refers to all the elect throughout history. Peter is writing to Christians, not nonchristians, who are eagerly awaiting Jesus' return. On the other hand, mockers and other antagonists also mentioned in the same letter are promised severe punishment. The intended audience is very clearly deliniated.
"I don't think Jesus is particularly helpful here." - Joel Webbon 1:26:29
Wow! How could Joel bring himself to say that???
There is no scenario, in theology or outside of theology, where the Incarnate Son of God is not helpful. The Lord Jesus Christ is the ultimately revelation of God. He, and He alone is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life. If the Lord Jesus said something, it's helpful.
The gymnastics this Calvinist takes when explaining Jesus' disdain for those who are without faith, disobedient, stubborn, is so lengthy. Its not complicated.
The debate was over when Joel said that Jesus is not helpful in sustaining Calvinism!! 1:26:39
Wow, the guy representing “ Calvinism” opened this debate with quoting so many great scriptures but just all out of context trying and forcing them into his systematic believing that it has legitimised his position, reminded me of talking to a Jehovah witnesses or Mormon elders.
They do the same with theonomy and election and replacement theology/fulfillment theology. It's all they do.
Dang, this guy is Webbon is really unarmed....on the other hand, Calvinism is really that an exercise in logical fallacies
Mr. Webbon said that on the non-Calvinist view, faith is tuebsinner's gift to God. What could God possibly gain from our faith? It's for our benefit that God calls us to have faith. The fact that He has given us the free will to exercise faith doesn't somehow mean that we are contributing something to God.
It can't come first because we can't be saved till we believe. Enlightenment must come first but that's different from regeneration.
1:50:00 So, God is a narcissist?
I don't read God's jealousy that way. A husband is jealous of his wife when she sleeps with another man. It isn't because he wanted the things she gave him (her body, her affection, etc.) - it's because he wanted her. But because she was giving herself to her adulterous lover through her actions, the actions are being condemned. But The husband loves his wife, not just her body.
I'd like to hear Joel define "glory" because it makes no sense to me how anyone could see God as good if his ultimate goal is to gain others' approval.
Awesome debate / discussion
I side with LF.
Flowers won this hands down coming in from a open perspective no one can deny that !! I thought flowers was far more accurate and just common sense but can’t lie soon as Joel said the LORD JESUS CHRIST didn’t help himself there 😳 wow just wow just them words absolutely kills it for him 🙈
When Jonathan Edwards said, we contribute nothing to our Salvation except our sin, didn't he know, that according to his Calvinistic belief, even sin was ordained/decreed/determined by God?
So, either he doesn't know Calvinism or he doesn't believe in Calvinism.
The cross examination of the Calvinist was eye opening! Especially the statement, “Jesus isn’t very helpful here”? WOW! The Word made flesh confuses us on what truth is? If it takes this amount of confusion to be a Calvinist why bother!
Thank you Dr. Leighton Flowers for clearly presenting the unadulterated Gospel in simplicity and Truth.
Praise Jesus Christ every day for His grace and mercy! His grace is sufficient.
Leighton Flowers wouldn't know the simple Gospel if it slapped him in the face. Wait. It has in numerous debates and he's still confused. Nevermind.
@@jamesgasaway7784 Interesting...If you're an exhaustive divine determinist of any variety, then you've just made God the Author of confusion and Scripture clearly states that He is not...maybe it is those who hold on to Calvinistic exhaustive divine determinism who are confused? Have you thought of that? Oh wait, you're not really free to think, only to think what you're determined to think. These and other incoherent or contradictory issues is what Leigton has been successfully pushing back on.
@@titosantiago3694 I'm no great fan of Leighton's opponent in this debate, but I wonder what you'd say regarding his interaction with someone like James White. I'm not sure any serious-minded person can watch their debate and still think Leighton knows what he's doing. In any case, I must challenge the foundation of your primary critique. That is, just because you're (apparently) confused, it doesn't mean God is to blame.
@@titosantiago3694 In any case, I suggest taking some time to examine your motivation in resisting the clear Scriptural definition of man as incapable of repentance. Invariably it's a question of man's pursuit of sharing God's glory. I suspect you may not be ready to admit that, but I trust that time and serious study will bring you into a right humility as a helpless sinner before a holy God.