"God is not glorified at the expense of his creation, but at the expense of Himself for the sake of His creation" Leighton Flowers.That is the most profound statement in the entire debate!Thank you Jesus!Hallelujah!
@@andrewdavidson8167 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. St. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. It is not Leighton's system it is God's system. Yeah, Thank God, man is the most important to God because He loves mankind so much that He gave his only son. You'd better believe what God says and not the faulty Calvinistic system.
Dr Brown's personal testimony is what really stood out for me.The fact that when he adopted Calvinism, it was not a position he arrived at prayerfully, but through reading theology books and erroneous intellectualizing of the word of God.I think the same is probably true about most other people who become Calvinists.Sadly.
@Elroy So what do you do about all the Calvinists who turned to Calvinism after realizing Arminianism was what you described Calvinism is? Just over intellectualism but not biblical reading?
@@andrewdavidson8167 Both Calvinism and Arminianism is erroneous and unbiblical. The traditionalist view is the one that knows closely adheres to the clear teaching of scripture. Which I don't even like to call it a view at all just read the Bible, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Once you're saved sanctification begins till you die or are raptured then glorification lasts forever. Remember that scripture where Jesus said unless you come to me as a little child you have no part of me? All these systems are from the minds of sinful men. We all need the mind of Christ not the mind of Calvin or Arminus!
@Jdude I know it’s been a couple of weeks since this reply but I read it again and I just have to laugh at it I would encourage you to watch the debate between James White and the poster boy of traditionalism, Leighton Flowers, on the passage of Romans 9, which one was more sound in his exegesis? Which one was able to start with chapter 8 and give the broader context and walk through chapter 9? Which one made it clear that their method of interpretation was the same on this issue with that passage as with other issues and other passages? Like the Trinity? Leighton said no his method was not the same from doctrine to doctrine which means there is a huge inconsistency on his part I agree with that last paragraph you wrote, but do you believe that figures in the past that are looked up to as influential figures have the mind of Christ as well? Or are you one of the guys who just says everyone in academia is wrong? If so then stop it
Excellent. This was a much-needed exposition. Absolutely brilliant. What a wonderful God we serve. He delights in giving mercy. I can't help but worship him. Blessings to you.
@ he only gives mercy to the small clump of heaven clay next to the ball of lint in his pocket. The mansion-sized block of hell clay over there? To hell with that blob that does everything I created it to do. Don’t talk to me about Calvinism. A true abomination and twisting of a merciful God.
What a team! These two men did awesome and are awesomely appreciated. I share their same view point on most points of God's word. So refreshing to hear intelligent men unravel this issue with which many are confused.
Praise the Lord you believe God punishes two people for the one persons sins? That you believe Christ’ atonement is only sufficient if the sinner makes it to be? Okay. You’re further from the truth than you imagined my friend. Repent.
Loved Leighton's teaching on hardening of heart. That was a very clear and helpful explanation, which made a lot of sense. I am a big admirer of Dr Brown, agree with him on lots of issues, but also impressed by Leighton Flowers here.
When persecution hits America, and our bubble of comfort is popped this topic won't be in front line.... Preach Christ and be wholly devoted to Him and let God be God..
Paul was greatly persecuted, He preached Christ and was wholly devoted to Him. He let God be God. And still he dealt frequently with these truths. So I suspect your wrong.
@nicholas carter You can say that about anyone. That’s why we need to put a bigger emphasis on biblical theology vs systematic theology. That by the way is why I’m a Calvinist.
I John 3:14 says, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death." This was the piece that remained so far from me when I was learning r scriptures under this Calvinist doctrine. Now that I've been released from it and understand the scriptures more clearly, the Lord is answering my years-old prayers that He give me love for brethren. I was concerned for a long while that although I was learning so much doctrine, my love for others was not increasing. But I think that goes back to the fact that I had a distorted view of God, and that view was not of a loving Father, but actually a cruel and mercurial one who did not take us into account at all. When I go back into the scriptures now, I see that yes, He is holy and He is firm in His judgment, and what He says goes, but the whole story from beginning to end shows His great love for us, and His great desire to be reconciled to each and every one of us. Each one of us is offered "a way to escape." I have had to repent of the caricature that I created and presented to the world of my God's unexplicably loving character. I pray that more people's eyes are opened to who our God really is, and how wonderful and patient and gracious He is towards each and every one of us. 🙏🏼
3:00 Like Dr. Brown says, the Bible conpare salvation is compared to a gift. No one is patted on the back for receiving a gift, but practically and legally speaking, you must accept a gift. It's a passive act but if you reject the gift, you either have a good reason or are a fool worthy of condemnation.
I like how Dr. Flowers was all apologetic when an audience member got offended, but Dr. Brown was blunt and unapologetic in his response. I liked Dr. Brown's response.
Gregory Lum prove all things. There is only one God. It’s best to keep greek philosophy out of the bible. We who say there is no trinity do not deny the Father, the son, and the holy ghost. We believe they are one and the same. The son is God in a human existence. The Holy Ghost is God in action if you will. It says in Genesis 1 “the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters”. We don’t believe in a multi person God. We believe He is only one. We believe His name is JESUS. Everything we think we know must be tested with the Holy Scriptures.
@@carlopara4982 A couple points: 1) they're not "Arminians." 2) They continually pointed to the Scriptures AND THEIR CONTEXTS to make their points in this discussion.
@@carlopara4982 Your comment is incompetent. There is only God's breathed words in the Greek New Testament mss, nothing about Calvin or Arminius. Calvinism and those following Arminius are not going to find their doctrines in God's breathed words. Calvinism, it's 9-not 5- points are easily refuted from Genesis to Revelation, beginning with their definition of Sovereign and Miticulous Determinism. Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 are God saying that the Jews did what NEVER entered His mind!
Here's James White annoyed by Leighton Flower's metaphors... ruclips.net/video/wcQHdjNvUe4/видео.html ([KSC] MHB - Captain Kirk annoyed by McCoy's metaphors!)
This subject has become a huge issue for me to get my head around. I'm grateful to both of you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom. I did a 3 part teaching on Calvinisn by Dr John MacArthur, who I have great respect for. I have a pile of info for both sides of the debate, it's tough 😊❤
Calvinism made me leave the church I was baptized in. I wrestled with my salvation for years. However, I'm back in the word. I'm trying to find a church to join.
I am a Calvinist, but I appreciate both of these brothers. I may not agree with their soteriology, but I appreciate the opportunity to hear them express their views. I believe that listening to those who disagree with you will either strengthen your understanding of your own view or change it to a more biblical perspective. I hope we all stay out of the echo chamber and listen to what others have to say.
Calvin’s god comes across to me as cruel and arbitrary. This is not merciful and kind like my Heavenly Father. My God is love and loved me even when I was His enemy. Excellent Dr. Brown. Bless your heart.
"God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so." A.W. Tozer When Dr. Brown read that quote, I was like, "Wow..." Love it!
1 Peter 3:15 (KJV) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:...and they do...God's be the Glory...These men are blessed...❤
I like the fact they address the view Calvinists have that those of us who reject Calvinism put humans on a "pedestal" regarding salvation. They talk about how in actuality, believing that we carry all the blame when we reject God puts MORE responsibility on us regarding our depravity than believing we aren't in any way capable of accepting God.
Flowers asked in 1:05:57 why Paul would try to persuade someone about Jesus if he believed some people are predestined to accept Christ and others not. Does he really think that hasn't been answered yet?
I suspect his intention is not to present and respond to the best reformed theologians have offered over the years, but to protect against the growth of reformed theology. It's why formal moderated debates are ao valuable. You have the two sides interacting, which informs the audience.
I know that before I was born of the Spirit I didn't have a desire for the things of God until I hit my 17th birthday. For almost a year I was intensely seeking for some thing. I wanted to know who the true God was. I was discouraged with my early religious upbringing in the Catholic faith so that was out. I began to study ancient Greek philosophers and other texts like the analects of Confucius and other writings. Something happened to me when I was reading through some of the works of the Stoic philosopher Markus Aurelius who was also a Roman Emperor. He made this statement, "You must at last perceive who your God is." That was the way this English translation translated it using a capital G in the word God. It was like the words popped out of the page at me. I was stunned. I thought about it a long time and realized I didn't know who God was. Was He Allah, or what Buddha taught about reality or any number of concepts dealing with ultimate reality? I didn't really know, but I wanted to know. This was back in the late 1960s when many of us were influenced by Eastern religious philosophy and thought. There was some thing called finding yourself. I thought that was what I needed. I did have that experience but was disappointed because I realized how sinful I was. I thought it would something wonderful but knew than that I wasn't. After these happenings I had a Black brother witness to me on the back of a Greyhound Bus about being born of the Spirit. I knew intuitively that what he was saying was what I needed. I already had the awareness that I was sinful and his witness of the gospel showed me that Jesus provided salvation already for me. I become a new creature in Christ. I was saved and born anew March 12, 1968 in Detroit. If it wasn't for the ministry of the Holy Spirit intervening I could have been lead astray into Eastern thought or deception. What happened to me was like what we read about in John 6: 44 that we can't even come to God unless He draws us. I was being drawn that whole year until I heard the gospel and quickly responded when I was told what to believe and receive. Thank God, though I was dead in my sins He drew me out of that horrible pit and put a new song in my heart and saved me to the uttermost.
This has actually been available for a couple months on the Condemned To Salvation Conference page. It’s just that Dr. Brown just got permission to post this on his own page.
We are totally unable and depraved but God's word, call and gospel empowers is to choose rightly. We can resist and rebel still. God wants to call all to salvation and not just a select few.
Calvinist: Arminians never engage in deep exegesis or respond to our arguments. Arminian: Writes 500 page book engaging in verse by verse exegesis and lengthy responses to Calvinistic arguments. Calvinist: You're just saying that because you want to take credit for your own salvation. Arminians never engage in deep exegesis or respond to our arguments.
Lol I think the fact that Calvinists exist, is the best evidence for Calvinism. There is no way someone could believe it unless God was forcing them too 😂
Believing is not man centered. Believing is God’s action requirement . As calvinists look out for God’s well-being, they miss the entire point of what He has done and the only thing he requires. Submission… admitting, we can do nothing. As an elect person or at least believing they may be elect, they could realistically believe they are better than they are. As non-Calvinist’s we believe true Christianity is the antithesis of man centered, we only come to God when we finally realize we can do nothing. We Believe He can save us, that’s it and that’s the only thing our sovereign God requires.
Leighton Flowers objections against reformed theology are not biblical, they are philosophical and based on his personal feelings. He argues against Calvinism using the EXACT same argument that Paul anticipated (and refuted) in Romans 9:19. He lost the debate with James White. Furthermore he uses strawman arguments in a dishonest manner to misrepresent what we believe. This behaviour is wrong. If I argue against Arminianism and I deliberately misrepresent the beliefs of my opponents, I have dishonoured God. He is not as smart as he thinks he is and he should know better than to be misrepresenting the views of other Christians. I remain a supporter of Dr Brown who I find to be much more honest and fair than Dr Flowers. You are wrong about reformed theology though.
Phil Blagden Oh the irony that you point to Romans 9 as a reason to attack Dr. Flowers, yet Dr. Brown has the same view of Romans 9 - the actual orthodox view of every other Christian in the world outside of Calvinism and the original church - that the objector in Romans 9 is a hardened and calloused Jew jealous that God is extending his mercy to the Gentiles when all the Gentiles have to do is believe and the Jews were required to follow all sorts of laws. Learn to to study the actual historical context of Romans 9 without drinking the false interpretation Kool-Aid of the Calvinists.
@@BK-yz7px There is no internal or external evidence to suggest that the objector has a specific identity. This is a red herring designed to avoid dealing with the argument. Anyone who tries to argue against predestination by claiming that if it is true then men are not responsible for their actions is the objector. This is why the objection is addressed to every reader of the passage.
@@crippledtalk The objectors are those who say that if God is sovereign in determining men's destinies then He has no right to hold us accountable for our actions. It is plain as day from the passage. It is those who want to be the masters of their own destiny. Those who refuse to accept that we are clay in the hands of the potter and that He has the right to show mercy to some and justice and wrath to others.
Well, Calvinism is a doctrine of demons, and there is a religious pride demon working in their false religion as a counterfeit holy spirit. Te false God of Calvinism is who the devil would be if he were God not who God actually is. I wonder if the demon who receives this reverence is named "Sovereign" or "Sovereignty" because this false church invokes this word in such a way--much more so than to Jesus Christ.
What good does it do to pray for someone especially their salvation if God does not control everything? Do they pray that God just tries really hard to save them but does not violate their free will?
Dr. Brown says that he disagrees with the doctrine "because constantly in the Bible we are told to choose, choose choose ,choose." I agree! Calvinist believe that man does have to choose God....but that is done after they have been given a new nature, a nature that wants to choose God and is able to do so. Not a sin nature that is a slave to sin, corrupt and spiritually dead. And so they misrepresent when they say that Calvinism teaches that man doesn't choose God.
Apologia5 Well, Calvinism starts with the fact that man has compatibilistic freedom. Man makes choices according to his nature, but that nature is decreed by God and the man cannot do otherwise. That’s no different than animal instinct. Calvinists have a habit of leaving out that important fatalistic bit that ultimate puts everything back onto God and removes man’s responsibility, no matter how the Calvinist tries to put makeup on it.
@@BK-yz7px "and removes man’s responsibility" Actually that's what Arminians misrepresent the reformed position as saying. No Calvinist ever removes man's responsibility. Because of God's Sovereignty, man's responsibility matters even more. There's no need for "make-up" cause that's just what the Bible says.
Randy Couture The you might want to take a look at the compatibilism Calvinists teach. It ultimately leads to fatalistic beliefs. There’s no way around it, no matter how Calvinists try to paint it. The moment you believe a person can actually do other than what they are doing, you believe in some level of libertarian freedom. Both compatibilism and hard determinism deny this. Calvinists love to paint this picture as though man is libertarianly making the choice to reject God, and then God has to come in and save some. But that’s not Calvinism at all. In compatibilism, man makes choices according to his nature and that nature is determined and decreed by God. And the big kicker - NO ONE can do other than what they are doing. No matter how you slice it, it leads to fatalism and is no different than animal instinct.
@@BK-yz7px " Calvinists love to paint this picture as though man is libertarianly making the choice to reject God" No no nope, this is you kicking down and burning up a strawman. Never met a calvinist who ever said humans have a libertarian free will. You don't have a free will. Your will is not free. Your will is captive to sin and the devil. That's what Jesus said and that's what the apostles wrote down. And because your will is captive to these entities, choices you make are always inclining themselves to adhere to their will and that's why everyone needs rescuing. No one rescues themselves, and in fact *no one wants* to be rescued, before anyone believes they're rolling around in the mud enjoying their filth oblivious of the ill effects around them. John 8:34....Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin 2 Timothy 2:25-26...The minds of unbelievers have been taken captive to do the devil's will Romans 7 is an entire lament by Paul about how he does things he doesn't want to do because in verse 18 he recognizes that nothing good dwells in his sinful nature. If you want to talk about foreign beliefs being imported into the Bible then you have to go no further than pelagianism and arminianism. You believe you have good that dwells in your sinful nature and that your will is totally free to choose God without Him first intervening. That's not a Biblical concept. In every single story of redemption in the Bible, every single one, God is the one who acts first. Every time. Arminians and pelagians say in the issue of salvation that man acts first and then God second. Again, that's not Biblical. God is the one who intervenes and rescues unbelievers from their filth, and He gets 100% of the Glory, not 99.9%, but 100%. The big disconnect is you want to say you contributed to your salvation.
I am so glad that Dr. Brown corrected flowers on the hardened state of humanity, that we are in fact haters of God by nature and birth. I have way more respect for Dr. brown’s theology.
It’s hard to see how someone can remain an Arminian when “Calvinist” doctrine is consistently and faithfully presented to them. There are “apparent” contradictions with Arminian theology that just isn’t consistently harmonized when someone walks through the texts honestly. Reading John 6:39, 44 & 10 with the backdrop of 1:13 will help reconcile 12:32 and Jesus high priestly prayer in 17 when Christ says He doesn’t pray on “behalf of the world” aka those who aren’t born of the spirit in contrast to flesh & man’s will (John 1:13). I was an Arminian for the majority of my walk and when I came to these apparent contradictions the Arminian view continuously jumped around and never consistently harmonized the doctrines of the NT. These are bright men but they simply don’t have a consistent interpretation that is able to harmonize the entire Bible. Specifically they have a different view on the doctrine of God’s Sovereignty that makes them view scripture through the Arminian perspective.
@@AtomicSea A wide, a very wide gulf that's keeps getting wider as the Holy Spirit leads me to increase understanding and wisdom. The wonderous miracle of having my eyes opened has exploded the Bible open like a field of beautiful flowers. Praise the Lord!!! It has revealed so much behind the words that a majority of people gloss over because they have no understanding. Along with seeing the amazing revelations comes a more disturbing view, that is seeing the many deceptions of the devil. The cleverness and elaborateness of the devil's traps it makes me shutter and hair stand on end. One of the most elaborate deceptions was via the works of Jean Cauvin in Geneva. What would drive a mere man (a humanist too) to demand he and only he was the voice of God, when he spoke it was God speaking?? Is this the mark of a godly man or a puppet of Satan?
Paul Pacheco John 3:16.. God so loved the world. 1 Timothy 2:4-6.. a ransom for all. John 12:32.. will draw all men. Romans 1:16-26.. manifested knowledge. Luke 2:9-11.. to all people. Acts 17:30-31.. all men. Romans 3:26-30.. faith is not a work. Romans 3:31.. we establish the law through faith. Romans 5:18-21.. free gift upon all men. Matthew 11:28.. come unto me, all. Acts 17:26-27.. he be not far from every one of us. Matthew 22:1-14.. the called did not listen. Matthew 14:31.. doubt is Peters fault. Matthew 15:28.. great is YOUR faith. 2 Peter 2:1.. Jesus bought the damned too. Matthew 19:24-26.. who can be saved?.. all things are possible. Matthew 23:37-39.. Jesus would have gathered Jerusalem.
Referencing Matthew 7:17-18 where Jesus says that, "a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor an a bad tree produce good fruit", the questioner asked, "doesn't this imply that a bad tree cannot make good choices/decisions?". (14:20) Dr. Brown rightly stated that the context is that of discerning false prophets, not whether someone was able to make a decision for the LORD ... but it would be helpful to just look at the other question that would arise from that type of logic: "Does this somehow imply that a good tree cannot make a bad choice/decision?" Of course, *no one* would say that, and therefore it is completely inconsistent for a Calvinist to attempt to go there with that passage.
I would modify the analogy... there is no rope that we take, there is a will that he help us and instead of throwing a rope, he reaches down and grabs men with his own hands who will respond in faith to his drawing.
Open theism is almost never understood correctly by those who reject it. I don't know a single open theist that says that God can't know something without causing it (2:39:00) . What we do say is that if everything you ever do is foreknown with absolute certainty then you are not free. Also open theists do not deny God's omniscience. God knows all that is true and real, but unmade free decisions do not exist to be known until they are made.
“Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48 NKJV This is a tough one to refute…
I don't know , it seemed like the last speaker was using John 3:16 incorrectly? Isn't it the offer of grace to everyone? The gift of salvation that needs to be answered by our faith in the Christ. He made it sound like John 3:16 and similar N.T. verses are the end instead of the beginning to ones faith journey. It made Armainianism look kinda shallow. John chapter 3 and 6 go much deeper than that. I admit Calvinism is a hard lesson to learn, and it comes with the pain realizing that people around us aren't saved but I need the truth in this sea of lies that is the natural world. The gift of the cross and hearing the word spread by believers is the bridge that Armainians are trying to cross.
If faith is not a gift from God (his power), then by necessity it is a work (Gk. "ergon"=energy/power i.e., my own mind conjuring up "faith"). Both Arminians and Calvinists affirm "faith alone," therefore Arminians contradict themselves. This is proven by the simple question: "Why does one person repent and receive Christ, while another rejects him based on the same information?" The debate ends with the 72:1 verses in favor of Calvinism in the Bible, but the "nuclear option" for the Calvinist is the following: "This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" Rom. 9:8-21
Amen. We are saved BY grace, through faith. God's grace is what effectively brings salvation. Grace is first and faith is the natural response of sinners made alive by the call of God. We could no more refuse our saviour than Lazarus could resist Jesus command to rise from the dead.
Isn't it more loving for God to guarantee the salvation of His children rather than give them an opportunity to choose to reject Him and spend an eternity in hell?
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved;) (Ephesians 2:5, KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 2:6, KJV) The scripture is about what happened when God raised Jesus from the dead. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, (Ephesians 1:20, KJV)
Matt. 7:15f. is not a text about how you can tell believers from unbelievers, at least according to Jesus. He says He's talking about "false prophets", not how to tell who is saved and who is not. Assumptions kill good Bible study.
I love how they're talking about the importance of CONTEXT in this video. A verse by itself can appear on the surface to support Calvinism, but the verses before and after show that what's being talked about does NOT support Calvinism at all.
I swear fewer people understand Arminianism than Calvinism. They aren't opposites! Arminius WAS a 4 point Calvinist! But none of the 5 points are true. And Dr. Brown isn't even an Arminian. He just more closely agrees with the Arminian position on this point of salvation than the completely nonsensical Calvinistic position. But the thing is--it doesn't really matter because it's like saying God effectually draws us to salvation in two different ways and one sees it as happening all the time--we just don't notice until we need to (Traditionalism), and the other is that God draws when He knows you are ready (Arminianism). Both say you have an obligation to respond and both believe it is God who does the saving.
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The "catch" is what does it mean to believe? Even the demons believe--and tremble. Dr. Brown doesn't believe God created the earth and everything in 6 days.. He's a fan of hugh ross.
@@duskacornwell5932 It might only look arbitrary to us, but we dont know if he chose us due to some reason or not. We will never have access to his infinite wisdom. Also, important thing to note, the other four people DID NOT WANT to get out of the pit. They loved it there.
@@maxzeblade Jesus used allegories too. And the debate is between calvinism and arminianism. We are just using words to communicate, dont think too much into it. This rule that anything ISM is of man- thats extrabiblical and of man too.
@@maxzeblade God does not draw all to himself. This was the context of John 6:44 where Jesus was trying to explain why some just wouldnt believe him. Calvinism doesnt negate human choice, it ADDS to it. It agrees that you have to choose God, but it also says God is mysteriously in control of that choice too without affecting your free will. Read philipians 2:13. Arminianism, which is the popular held Christian view of salvation, believes only in human choice. It does not take into account verses like philip 2:13, acts 13:48, acts 16:14, romans 8:29,30 etc
Neither Paul, John, Luke, or Peter were Calvinists. Calvinism is a 17th century theology born out of egregious misinterpretations of multiple passages of scripture.
You make it so difficult .....look at the theif on the cross ....you will be with me in paradise ....my son wanted to part ways bec of dumb calvinisn. I raised him in the Lord .. now he acts like he is above ...toooo awful. You need compassion ...tell others about Jesus ...quit bringing them to your religion ...bring them to JESUS ...I BRING THE GOSPEL. LETS TALK ABOUT JESUS
Neither Flowers or Brown addressed the question about Ephesians 2:2-3. Why ? Because their bias prevents it. Those who are by nature children of wrath are also children of disobedience. Hence the children of wrath will not obey the gospel and believe unless they are quickened first. The Salvation of a child of wrath is accomplished by a creative work of God which is certain to come to pass.
The Salvation of a child of wrath is accomplished by a creative work of God which is certain to come to pass. I imagine the following to be that creative work! Also in Ephesians. We couldn't see the extent of "it is finished" the earth quaked and the rock split at the foot of the Cross, Christs blood was released by the Roman soldier who pierced his side. While Six hundred years earlier The Ark of the Covenant was moved.. Solomon prepared for its hiding and Jeremiah moved it precisely under the cross yet future! GOLGOTHA. THE WITNESS OF THE BLOOD IN THE STARS.. REVELATION 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The Rabbi's keep the tablets of stone and the blood (testimony) found on the mercy seat. I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourn for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ENMITY is what exists now the solution is in the Fathers witness! 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believe on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believe not God hath made him a liar; because he believe not the record that God gave of his Son. For it is by His grace we are rescued, through faith; and this is not of yourselves, but it is the gift of Elohim. (when opened). 9. Not of works, or else anyone glory (in themselves). 10. For we are His creation who are created in Y'shua the Mashiyach for good works which Elohim has before prepared for us to walk in. 11. Wherefore be mindful that you formerly were carnal Gentiles; and you were called the uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision of which is the work of the hands in the flesh. 12. And you were, at that time, without the Mashiyach; and were aliens from the Devarim of Israel; and strangers to the covenant of the promise; and were without hope and without Elohim in the world. 13. But now, by Y'shua the Mashiyach, you who before were afar off, have been brought near by the Blood of the Mashiyach. 14. He is Himself our peace, who has made the two (become) ONE
Wait, 3 hours and 15 minutes on Calvinism, by two guys who don't agree with Calvinism...? (Nor have little to no understanding of it.) Hey, I know. How about getting a Calvinist up on stage to discuss Calvinism...
Do Reformed conferences like G3 invite non-Calvinists? Oh yeah. The answer is no. So, maybe you should look in the mirror at people in your camp first.
And Dr. Brown and Dr. White habe engaged with each other and discussed Calvinism MANY times before. To say Dr. Brown doesn’t understand Calvinism is a complete joke.
Remember the Roman's 9 debate L.F. had with James White....yikes! All and all, I love these discussions as we wrestle through the deep things of God and His Word....although I disagree with these fine gentlemen.
TheGanner Yikes was right. James White refused to deal with the points of contention and reneged on his pre-debate agreement. Flowers has shown proof of the pre-debate exchange, and White fully approved of Flowers’ approach to the text. Yet the man turns around and cries like a baby as if he had no clue Flowers was trying to specifically key in on the points of contention between the Calvinist and non-Calvinist interpretations of Romans 9 and why they differ.
TheGanner It’s easy to say that when you either are ignorant of James White’s actions or choose to ignore his tactics. The guy completely reneged in his pre-debate agreement. He’s the one who actually derailed the debate because he was NOT dealing with the points of contention. That was the whole purpose. It was never to just read Romans 9. All of the Christians before Augustine and EVERY other Christian group outside of Calvinism DO NOT interpret Romans 9 like a Calvinist. There’s a reason for that, and that needs to be shown. If James White was debating the Trinity against a Oneness or Unitarian person, imagine how James White would feel if that Oneness or Unitarian person forces White to stay on one single text without the ability to bring in other texts to explain the overall picture of God’s nature. White would be crying foul at that. Romans 9 has a context and is NOT meant to be an isolated passage.
@@BK-yz7px I understand your point regarding the use of the entirety Scripture...and I get what L.F. was trying to accomplish. I respect that. I'm not trying to throw stones at either L.F. or M.B. I appreciate them both for their zeal and knowledge of Scripture...and their Christlike character. But my opinion is clearly different than yours regarding the Romans 9 debate. L.F. was arguing against Calvinism and not so much against Rom 9.
TheGanner You also have to keep in mind that this was Dr. Flowers’ very first major public debate. In any other area of life, rookies get a little bit of grace compared to a seasoned veteran. I’m sure a seasoned debater would have seen what was going on and adjusted accordingly on the spot. But I do think all of the background evidence that I’m aware of suggests that White pulled a fast one on Dr. Flowers, taking advantage of his inexperience to paint him in a bad light to the public. But I think anyone who takes an objective step back can see what Dr. Flowers was getting at. As I mentioned earlier, non-Calvinists don’t view Romans 9 as the Calvinist does and there’s a reason and explanation for that. That’s what I keep saying. What really should have come out of the debate was the actual points of contention, but Dr. White got so caught up in formal debate rules and attacked Dr. Flowers’ hermeneutics (which actually is the majority view of Christendom in the grand scope) that he distracted from the whole point of the debate. It was a debate red herring. Dr. Flowers didn’t do anything that wasn’t agreed upon in pre-debate discussions.
God does whatever He pleases in heaven and on earth. Psa 135:6; Dan 4:34-35; Psa 33;6,9-11; since this is true, according to both speakers, it would please God to save everyone. the question is....WHY are some lost and sent to hell?
Well limited atonement is NOT Biblical.God does not pick and choose some elect before he created us. God commands ALL men everywhere to Repent.Calvanism denies this very clear Scripture in acts.And your right as no Calvanist can answer your question.,because its again just wrong!! Even the earliest Reformers rejected the L in tulip/
@@bobfree1226 you really should read this book.. "From Heaven He Came and Sought Her: Definite Atonement in Historical, Biblical, Theological, and Pastoral Perspective"
@@rbmath i have asked you one of the ultimate questions based on Scripture,and most calvanists cant answer it. God does do what He pleases and wills. But Scripture says He commands All men Everywhere to Repent,an Gods light is in all men john 1 verse 4-9.Just because man is a sinner and can not gain Salvation,does not mean he cant Repent and come to God thru Jesus and Believe.we see it over and over in the Bible.Paul underscores this when he says God even appoints mens times and places so that they might find Him. How can you not get this. it is these clear scriptures that even DR Brown and Dr Flowers agree 100% and many others.ive read all the books out there and calvanism is wrong period.again almost ALL early reformers rejected Limited Atonement.which Calvin Himself called Terrible and Dreadful. Enough said.From the beginning of the bible to the end it says Choose,Choose.stop looking thru the lens of calvanism which i did years ago an it is so clear.
@@bobfree1226 Everyone is commanded to repent. Yet we can't do so unless it is granted to us. Those who did not receive Grace will still be doomed according to the desires of their hearths. Everyone knows God to such an extent that they are unapologetous when they deny him. The lost suppress the truth, so they are guilty. Still God is under no obligation to grant faith and repentance to anyone.
1 Timothy 2:4-6.. a ransom for all. John 12:32.. will draw all men. Romans 1:16-26.. manifested knowledge. Luke 2:9-11.. to all people. Acts 17:30-31.. all men. Romans 3:26-30.. faith is not a work. Romans 3:31.. we establish the law through faith. Romans 5:18-21.. free gift upon all men. Matthew 11:28.. come unto me, all. Acts 17:26-27.. he be not far from every one of us. Matthew 22:1-14.. the called did not listen. Matthew 14:31.. doubt is Peters fault. Matthew 15:28.. great is YOUR faith. 2 Peter 2:1.. Jesus bought the damned too. Matthew 19:24-26.. who can be saved?.. all things are possible. Matthew 23:37-39.. Jesus would have gathered Jerusalem.. and the Pharisees didn’t want it. Jesus would not be seen any more until/if they called out to him.
That’s a good point. Are we born to hate God first then he changes us for his glory and ability to save us. Or can we be raised to love God since birth and continue that. But there will always be some to resent their parents. It’s been going on forever.
Idk about Dr. Flowers' views, but I know Dr. Brown is a Charismatic Christian. I don't agree with that branch of Christianity, but that doesn't mean I reject all views he has. The same goes for Calvinist pastors; I don't agree with them regarding that specific belief, but I can find sermons they give on other topics very enlightening.
Strange that they think we are immortal like God. If being dead means only separated from God, it means we are all immortal just like Him. In my readings sometimes it means separated and sometimes really dead.
You had no say in your physical birth, same goes with your spiritual birth it was supernatural as Jesus said in John 3, you must be born again or born from above. So God alone decides who will be saved, people don't like that, but yet trust in God to save sinners when apparently it's up to man to choose God for salvation. You have a huge problem when you reject God's sovereignty, man has control now, not God. And you may think what's the problem with that? It means man can thwart God's plans, which is not possible Job 42:2.
Biblical Theology saying I have no say in my spiritual birth is like saying my mom had all boys so I’ll have all boys. You can’t connect two different ideas just because they’re comparable in wording.
Rejecting Calvinism and determinism doesn’t mean you reject God’s sovereignty. God sovereignly decided to allow us to choose him and be saved, or reject him and be lost.
The issue is that Calvinism is just taking Protestantism to its logical conclusion. If credit is all due to God, then men has no responsibility in his salvation. You can’t praise or condemn someone for an action that they have no control over. The heart of the matter is irresistible grace. To make an analogy. A men is drowning. You offer to help him out of the water, but he refuses and perishes. You give him grace, but he turns it away. It would be fair to say the fault was with his bad decision. You can’t say that if he accepted the help, then all credit is due to you. You can’t have it both ways. If someone makes a bad decision, it’s their fault. If they make the good decision, you’re to take credit. People are not condemned because they are not given grace. They are condemned because they turn the grace away. What I’m saying is not Arminianism, because that would be obtaining salvation by your own effort. I know it’s a bitter pill to swallow, but Calvinism is like Islam. God could’ve saved them, but in His infinite wisdom, He just didn’t. It’s not your fault for being a reprobate. Calvinists even sadisticly delight by making the analogy to Oprah. You aren’t entitled to Oprah’s giveaway. She isn’t obliged to give you anything. Salvation is not about making the right choices, it’s about getting lucky. Remember Noah. He offered people a way out through the ark, but they turned him down. He didn’t tell them. Hey guys, a select few of you are lucky. For the rest you, tough luck.
Your drowning man analogy is faulty for the very reason that you presume that all of humanity is drowning and reaching up for God to help. This view is unbiblical first of all. And secondly, it is nonsensical, a drowning man who knows they are drowning has no reason to *not* grab onto the rope, your analogy says everyone in the world knows that they're drowning but they're refusing to grab the rope but that couldn't be further from the truth. The way salvation is presented in the Bible is that all humans have rebelled but God being rich in mercy and grace saves some *solely* based on His grace (Ephesians 2:4-5) and without compromising His justice and wrath, will exact just punishment to others. This is the Romans 9 argument. That God *does not* deal unjustly with anyone. Your misunderstanding of what grace means is the reason why this is such a stumbling block to you. As it stands, you believe Grace is owed to everyone. Grace is grace because it is unmerited and undeserved. As sinners, no one deserves Grace, if God sent everyone to hell He would be completely Just and righteous in doing so, but Grace has been extended supernaturally to multitudes upon multitudes of people who *do not deserve it* 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 make it abundantly clear that God saves people because He is merciful and not because of anything anyone does that is righteous. Someone who is guilty (which in this case is all of mankind) could either receive justice or they could receive grace. No one should want to receive justice from God, because that means all your evil deeds, thoughts, and words are laid bare before God and you are judged for every single one of them. Instead you desire for God to show you mercy, like Psalm 51 says, "Have mercy on me o Lord according to your steadfast love, according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin" David desired mercy not justice. "Calvinism is like Islam" Actually your drowning man rope analogy is more like Islam and any works-based merit dependent religion out there because you're saying the decisive factor in salvation is based on man's actions. Meaning at the end of the day, what justifies someone/gets them into heaven is the choices the make in this world and the good works they do ie the decision to grab onto the rope and climb is what's the ultimate deciding factor. "luck" There's no such thing as luck in the Bible. Look for that word in the Bible and show me where that word or concept appears. It doesn't. There's no such thing as luck in God's universe, and when you import foreign concepts like these back into the Bible that aren't there to begin with and then you caricature the position you're misrepresenting even further, you only work to do yourself a disservice.
I think Dr. Brown does a pretty poor job with his life boat illustration. The difference between monergism and synergism has to do with cooperation. The synergist believes that man must cooperate with God, in order to be saved. Grabbing hold of a life boat is cooperation. When you cooperate with someone, you are by definition contributing to something. The person who grabs hold of the lifeboat is contributing to their salvation.
So grabbing on to the life preserver when your drowning would be a work? Simply believing is now considered a work? Your doing a work to contribute to your salvation?
@Loves2HugItOut Remember you also must hold on to the life preserver all you life. Then you picked up....finally. 😅 That is not blessed assurance. That is eternal insecurity. Think about the implications of libertarian free will. Do we still keep it in Heaven?
The word of God is obviously the ultimate authority in all matters but just out of curiosity I would like to know the statistics on rejecting a rope life preservers vs accepting one while actively drowning or as it was put swimming in shark infested water??? A good analogies presuposes truth and corresponds to reality I dont see that one holding up?
Okay Carly. Consider the number of cigarette smokers who reject the information about it's affects and continue smoking. Or consider the scientific evidence that an unborn child is a unique individual and capable of feeling pain and at a very early point is capable of living independent of the womb, coupled with the evidence of long term physical and psychological affects on the mother and even on those performing an abortion, yet people continue to support it and actively participate.
Right I would agree with you I find your analogies to definitely correspond to reality and Gods word especially Romans 8 "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot." It follows that it is God who changes a sinners heart from a person who loves sin to a person who hates sin. Someone who is by nature a mind set on the flesh their minds are hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. So how then does a person who is in the flesh "choose" to set there minds on the things of the spirit when Paul lays out that they can not?
Carlo Para, According to the Bible, the war between the flesh and the Spirit is not a war between body and soul. Instead, it is a struggle within ourselves......a war between the new life granted to us by the Holy Spirit and our sin nature, which will remain until our glorification.
@@carmensiekierke3579 the matter is that the flesh cannot submit to the law of God if you are salvation depends on your responses(flesh) without the work of the Holy Ghost it means that is not work of divine work of God for salvation
I really don't understand how people go to an university and get a doctorate in theology and still don't get the 101 basics of salvation and the Gospel!. Salvation is a very easy thing to grasp and understand if you let the bible speak for itself.Here is the 101 easy understanding of redemption: 1-Sin was brought to humankind (ALL THE WORLD) by Adam and Eve through disobedience to God. 2-Through one man (Adam) all the world (all his descendants) inherited a sinful nature and therefore all are under condemnation by God. 3-If ALL are under the slavery of sin and condemnation logically ALL must be rescued from slavery and death. 4-Jesus came to undo the works of Satan and free ALL those who were under bondage and slavery by offering ALL those who believe in him eternal life. 5-If ,as Calvinist claim , God gave His only begotten Son as an atonement for sin to a selected predestined group of people only.Then that would imply that the rest of the world (the ones not elected),are created and allowed to exist for the sole purpose of making them suffer an eternal punishment in hell!. 6-If point #5 is correct, are we more merciful and loving than God?.If we imperfect and sinful creatures would not create human clones for the sole purpose of sending them to a place of torment and torture here on earth, how could we envision our creator to do such thing and still worship him.The answer is, NO WE ARE NOT MORE LOVING AND MERCIFUL THAN GOD.Therefore God mercy and love would not ever allow such thing as creating beings for the sole purpose of torment and pain without the choice of avoiding such miserable and sad ending. GRACE MOST BE OFFERED TO ALL WHO ARE SINNERS because a SINFUL nature is the only condition for which Jesus atonement could be effective and valid!.You must be a SINNER for Jesus atonement to be effective, a sinless, righteous and perfect man (Adam before the fall) does not have the need of an atonement.Only those who are under the curse of sin need to be liberated from that curse.If Calvinists are as much as sinners as the rest of humankind , why then Jesus atonement be effective and valid to Calvinists only while ineffective and invalid to the rest who meet the same SINFUL requirement (as Calvinist do) of Jesus atonement?. That is why the Bible says " God so loved the WORLD (ALL SINNERS) that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever ( ALL OF THOSE THAT ARE IN THE WORLD) believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". The whole world (ALL) have the opportunity and offer of grace/mercy but ONLY those (the sheep that hear Jesus voice and follow him) who make the decision of accepting God grace are to BE SAVED!. So you see, by one man (Adam) SIN and condemnation/death entered humanity (ALL THE WORLD) and by one man ( Jesus) righteousness and salvation/eternal life was brought as an offering to ALL those who believe in the Son of the ALL MIGHTY GOD OF ISRAEL!.If salvation and eternal life would be for only a selected group of people that would imply that the UNIVERSAL ("GOD SO LOVE THE WORLD") expression of an offering of salvation was a lie. My dear friends GOD CAN NOT LIE OR DECEIVE because God is TRUTHFUL,JUST AND HOLY. You don't need a doctorate to know God's plan of salvation, God made it very simple and easy for us to understand and follow Jesus road to heaven.Through Him, Jesus is the door and we ALL are offered (grace) the key (faith) to get into heaven!.Go and get the key to unlock the door (Jesus) that will give you eternal life and joy in our God kingdom
"God is not glorified at the expense of his creation, but at the expense of Himself for the sake of His creation" Leighton Flowers.That is the most profound statement in the entire debate!Thank you Jesus!Hallelujah!
@Which given Leightons whole theological system, means that man is the most important thing
@@andrewdavidson8167 or important enough
@@andrewdavidson8167
John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
St. John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
It is not Leighton's system it is God's system.
Yeah, Thank God, man is the most important to God because He loves mankind so much that He gave his only son.
You'd better believe what God says and not the faulty Calvinistic system.
100% agree
Thanks for commenting.
We’ll said
@@cogito_ergo_sum-y2hAMEN!
Dr Brown's personal testimony is what really stood out for me.The fact that when he adopted Calvinism, it was not a position he arrived at prayerfully, but through reading theology books and erroneous intellectualizing of the word of God.I think the same is probably true about most other people who become Calvinists.Sadly.
wish i could give you 100 thumbs up for this
Yes, bank on. Another 100 thumbs up from me.
@Elroy
So what do you do about all the Calvinists who turned to Calvinism after realizing Arminianism was what you described Calvinism is? Just over intellectualism but not biblical reading?
@@andrewdavidson8167
Both Calvinism and Arminianism is erroneous and unbiblical. The traditionalist view is the one that knows closely adheres to the clear teaching of scripture. Which I don't even like to call it a view at all just read the Bible, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Once you're saved sanctification begins till you die or are raptured then glorification lasts forever. Remember that scripture where Jesus said unless you come to me as a little child you have no part of me?
All these systems are from the minds of sinful men. We all need the mind of Christ not the mind of Calvin or Arminus!
@Jdude
I know it’s been a couple of weeks since this reply but I read it again and I just have to laugh at it
I would encourage you to watch the debate between James White and the poster boy of traditionalism, Leighton Flowers, on the passage of Romans 9, which one was more sound in his exegesis? Which one was able to start with chapter 8 and give the broader context and walk through chapter 9? Which one made it clear that their method of interpretation was the same on this issue with that passage as with other issues and other passages? Like the Trinity? Leighton said no his method was not the same from doctrine to doctrine which means there is a huge inconsistency on his part
I agree with that last paragraph you wrote, but do you believe that figures in the past that are looked up to as influential figures have the mind of Christ as well? Or are you one of the guys who just says everyone in academia is wrong? If so then stop it
Two Christian teachers who do a great job correcting the error of Calvanism. Respect and thanks to both, good to see them together.
Excellent. This was a much-needed exposition. Absolutely brilliant.
What a wonderful God we serve. He delights in giving mercy. I can't help but worship him.
Blessings to you.
Of course, God delights in showing mercy, and there is not a true Calvinist in the world who would deny that.
@ he only gives mercy to the small clump of heaven clay next to the ball of lint in his pocket. The mansion-sized block of hell clay over there? To hell with that blob that does everything I created it to do.
Don’t talk to me about Calvinism. A true abomination and twisting of a merciful God.
What a team! These two men did awesome and are awesomely appreciated. I share their same view point on most points of God's word. So refreshing to hear intelligent men unravel this issue with which many are confused.
Totally agree! Some of the most intelligent Scholars out there now in my opinion.
So much truth and light in these teachings. I have to say that it is a breath of fresh air. Thank you so much!
Very good stuff here! Former calvinist for 10 years praise the Lord but I'm not there anymore!
Praise the Lord you believe God punishes two people for the one persons sins? That you believe Christ’ atonement is only sufficient if the sinner makes it to be? Okay. You’re further from the truth than you imagined my friend. Repent.
Loved Leighton's teaching on hardening of heart. That was a very clear and helpful explanation, which made a lot of sense. I am a big admirer of Dr Brown, agree with him on lots of issues, but also impressed by Leighton Flowers here.
So very helpful for all Christian believers. We will all be judged for our actions and choices we made while in this world..
When persecution hits America, and our bubble of comfort is popped this topic won't be in front line....
Preach Christ and be wholly devoted to Him and let God be God..
Hummer that isnt happening but it matters as it changes how god is understood in terms of his character. That matters greatly
Jordan Thornburg believe the True covenant that God made with the house of israel and all people that fear the Lord. Acts 2:38
WHEN? Lets just live for Him now.. the moment we were given :)
Exactly bro, Hummer!
Paul was greatly persecuted, He preached Christ and was wholly devoted to Him. He let God be God. And still he dealt frequently with these truths. So I suspect your wrong.
Extremely informative! This is Almighty Gods’ Total Truth! ❤
Powerful message…extremely formative! ❤
I have to say that the most powerful refutations of Calvinism, was the direct reading of Scripture from the Bible.
@Elroy
That’s interesting because a good amount of their references just pass by in the night and don’t fully address all of scripture
I am sure other who holds different interpretations feel the same way.
@@andrewdavidson8167 And I can say the same about Calvinists with their proof-texts. Jehovah witnesses do the same.
@@pinknoise365 yep. My opinion is this : Maybe we’re ALL WRONG!!! Lol
@nicholas carter
You can say that about anyone. That’s why we need to put a bigger emphasis on biblical theology vs systematic theology. That by the way is why I’m a Calvinist.
I John 3:14 says, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death."
This was the piece that remained so far from me when I was learning r scriptures under this Calvinist doctrine. Now that I've been released from it and understand the scriptures more clearly, the Lord is answering my years-old prayers that He give me love for brethren. I was concerned for a long while that although I was learning so much doctrine, my love for others was not increasing.
But I think that goes back to the fact that I had a distorted view of God, and that view was not of a loving Father, but actually a cruel and mercurial one who did not take us into account at all. When I go back into the scriptures now, I see that yes, He is holy and He is firm in His judgment, and what He says goes, but the whole story from beginning to end shows His great love for us, and His great desire to be reconciled to each and every one of us. Each one of us is offered "a way to escape."
I have had to repent of the caricature that I created and presented to the world of my God's unexplicably loving character. I pray that more people's eyes are opened to who our God really is, and how wonderful and patient and gracious He is towards each and every one of us. 🙏🏼
Wow! that was helpful. Thanks to God, and thanks to the people who participated in this and making it happen.
3:00 Like Dr. Brown says, the Bible conpare salvation is compared to a gift. No one is patted on the back for receiving a gift, but practically and legally speaking, you must accept a gift. It's a passive act but if you reject the gift, you either have a good reason or are a fool worthy of condemnation.
If salvation consisted in nothing but receiving a gift, his comment might have some validity. It doesn't.
I like how Dr. Flowers was all apologetic when an audience member got offended, but Dr. Brown was blunt and unapologetic in his response. I liked Dr. Brown's response.
Brown isn’t Christian. Be consistent with scripture man. Look what he holds to and preaches elsewhere. Delusional folk follow this man.
This is wonderful! It has helped me out a lot.
Well said Dr Brown, the reformation didn't get everything right, it pointed us back to scripture.
Reformation: let the Bible speak itself.
Arminian: let your emotion speak itself.
Gregory Lum prove all things. There is only one God. It’s best to keep greek philosophy out of the bible. We who say there is no trinity do not deny the Father, the son, and the holy ghost. We believe they are one and the same. The son is God in a human existence. The Holy Ghost is God in action if you will. It says in Genesis 1 “the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters”. We don’t believe in a multi person God. We believe He is only one. We believe His name is JESUS. Everything we think we know must be tested with the Holy Scriptures.
@@michelhaineault6654
That the Trinity is false
Really ?👈🏾 👉🏾 Can you back it up with scriptures ?
@@carlopara4982 A couple points: 1) they're not "Arminians." 2) They continually pointed to the Scriptures AND THEIR CONTEXTS to make their points in this discussion.
@@carlopara4982 Your comment is incompetent. There is only God's breathed words in the Greek New Testament mss, nothing about Calvin or Arminius. Calvinism and those following Arminius are not going to find their doctrines in God's breathed words. Calvinism, it's 9-not 5- points are easily refuted from Genesis to Revelation, beginning with their definition of Sovereign and Miticulous Determinism. Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 are God saying that the Jews did what NEVER entered His mind!
Excellent Q&A answers.
Respect for both of these brothers. Good to see them working together.
Hey Jew and Greek, nice to see you comment on a video. wondering when you're going to make another video on your channel? God bless you!
@@josephzimba681 Soon, and thanks.
This is one of the few times I didn't see you defending a false prophet
I sense a Radio Free Geneva coming on...
Standing on my hands.....
The Lord Is My Shepherd yep! Dr. James White I can hear mighty fortress is our God!
Here's James White annoyed by Leighton Flower's metaphors...
ruclips.net/video/wcQHdjNvUe4/видео.html
([KSC] MHB - Captain Kirk annoyed by McCoy's metaphors!)
... or a Dividing Line. Or, both!
I can picture Dr. White hitting the pause button and starting with "In what sense..."
This subject has become a huge issue for me to get my head around. I'm grateful to both of you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.
I did a 3 part teaching on Calvinisn by Dr John MacArthur, who I have great respect for. I have a pile of info for both sides of the debate, it's tough 😊❤
Thanks for uploading. As a Lutheran inquirer of Eastern Orthodoxy, there is so much I can agree with in your statements.
Calvinism made me leave the church I was baptized in. I wrestled with my salvation for years. However, I'm back in the word. I'm trying to find a church to join.
Thank you both! This helped me a lot God bless you!
I am a Calvinist, but I appreciate both of these brothers. I may not agree with their soteriology, but I appreciate the opportunity to hear them express their views. I believe that listening to those who disagree with you will either strengthen your understanding of your own view or change it to a more biblical perspective. I hope we all stay out of the echo chamber and listen to what others have to say.
Calvin’s god comes across to me as cruel and arbitrary. This is not merciful and kind like my Heavenly Father. My God is love and loved me even when I was His enemy. Excellent Dr. Brown. Bless your heart.
"God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so." A.W. Tozer
When Dr. Brown read that quote, I was like, "Wow..." Love it!
Are you people so prodigiously ignorant that you don't understand that Calvinists don't deny that God gave people the ability to make moral choices?
1 Peter 3:15 (KJV) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:...and they do...God's be the Glory...These men are blessed...❤
I like the fact they address the view Calvinists have that those of us who reject Calvinism put humans on a "pedestal" regarding salvation. They talk about how in actuality, believing that we carry all the blame when we reject God puts MORE responsibility on us regarding our depravity than believing we aren't in any way capable of accepting God.
For some Reas I wasn't notified about this. Definitely watching.
What a great resource to better understand the other side :)
Flowers asked in 1:05:57 why Paul would try to persuade someone about Jesus if he believed some people are predestined to accept Christ and others not. Does he really think that hasn't been answered yet?
I suspect his intention is not to present and respond to the best reformed theologians have offered over the years, but to protect against the growth of reformed theology. It's why formal moderated debates are ao valuable. You have the two sides interacting, which informs the audience.
Yes because it has not been answered
Two of my favorite men.
thanks a lot!
I know that before I was born of the Spirit I didn't have a desire for the things of God until I hit my 17th birthday. For almost a year I was intensely seeking for some thing. I wanted to know who the true God was. I was discouraged with my early religious upbringing in the Catholic faith so that was out. I began to study ancient Greek philosophers and other texts like the analects of Confucius and other writings. Something happened to me when I was reading through some of the works of the Stoic philosopher Markus Aurelius who was also a Roman Emperor. He made this statement, "You must at last perceive who your God is." That was the way this English translation translated it using a capital G in the word God. It was like the words popped out of the page at me. I was stunned. I thought about it a long time and realized I didn't know who God was. Was He Allah, or what Buddha taught about reality or any number of concepts dealing with ultimate reality? I didn't really know, but I wanted to know. This was back in the late 1960s when many of us were influenced by Eastern religious philosophy and thought. There was some thing called finding yourself. I thought that was what I needed. I did have that experience but was disappointed because I realized how sinful I was. I thought it would something wonderful but knew than that I wasn't. After these happenings I had a Black brother witness to me on the back of a Greyhound Bus about being born of the Spirit. I knew intuitively that what he was saying was what I needed. I already had the awareness that I was sinful and his witness of the gospel showed me that Jesus provided salvation already for me. I become a new creature in Christ. I was saved and born anew March 12, 1968 in Detroit. If it wasn't for the ministry of the Holy Spirit intervening I could have been lead astray into Eastern thought or deception. What happened to me was like what we read about in John 6: 44 that we can't even come to God unless He draws us. I was being drawn that whole year until I heard the gospel and quickly responded when I was told what to believe and receive. Thank God, though I was dead in my sins He drew me out of that horrible pit and put a new song in my heart and saved me to the uttermost.
Comments already posted for a 3 hour 15 minute clip that has been out just over 30 minutes.
Jamie Preece cause no one can comment before watching it completely. Excellent point!
They commented before the video's end because they were foreordained to. That or they just couldn't help themselves. :^) - J @@michaelborg5798
I personally don’t comment when watching the lord of the ring extended version unless feeling led by the Holy Spirit.
This has actually been available for a couple months on the Condemned To Salvation Conference page. It’s just that Dr. Brown just got permission to post this on his own page.
B K that’s fine but not everyone, including myself, knew of the original web page.
I just read Romans 11. Yes, it for sure refutes Calvinism.
1:30:40 One of the best examples I've ever heard!
We are totally unable and depraved but God's word, call and gospel empowers is to choose rightly. We can resist and rebel still.
God wants to call all to salvation and not just a select few.
Calvinist: Arminians never engage in deep exegesis or respond to our arguments.
Arminian: Writes 500 page book engaging in verse by verse exegesis and lengthy responses to Calvinistic arguments.
Calvinist: You're just saying that because you want to take credit for your own salvation. Arminians never engage in deep exegesis or respond to our arguments.
Lol I think the fact that Calvinists exist, is the best evidence for Calvinism. There is no way someone could believe it unless God was forcing them too 😂
Seems you need to check James White debate Dr Brown
Absolutely Wonderful and brilliant
Two of my favorites
Isaiah 53:5 is one of my favorite verses. It's one of my tattoos.
Believing is not man centered.
Believing is God’s action requirement .
As calvinists look out for God’s well-being, they miss the entire point of what He has done and the only thing he requires.
Submission…
admitting, we can do nothing.
As an elect person or at least believing they may be elect, they could realistically believe they are better than they are.
As non-Calvinist’s we believe true Christianity is the antithesis of man centered, we only come to God when we finally realize we can do nothing.
We Believe He can save us,
that’s it and that’s the only thing our sovereign God requires.
Spot on
Great video!
Leighton Flowers objections against reformed theology are not biblical, they are philosophical and based on his personal feelings. He argues against Calvinism using the EXACT same argument that Paul anticipated (and refuted) in Romans 9:19. He lost the debate with James White. Furthermore he uses strawman arguments in a dishonest manner to misrepresent what we believe. This behaviour is wrong. If I argue against Arminianism and I deliberately misrepresent the beliefs of my opponents, I have dishonoured God. He is not as smart as he thinks he is and he should know better than to be misrepresenting the views of other Christians.
I remain a supporter of Dr Brown who I find to be much more honest and fair than Dr Flowers. You are wrong about reformed theology though.
Phil Blagden Oh the irony that you point to Romans 9 as a reason to attack Dr. Flowers, yet Dr. Brown has the same view of Romans 9 - the actual orthodox view of every other Christian in the world outside of Calvinism and the original church - that the objector in Romans 9 is a hardened and calloused Jew jealous that God is extending his mercy to the Gentiles when all the Gentiles have to do is believe and the Jews were required to follow all sorts of laws. Learn to to study the actual historical context of Romans 9 without drinking the false interpretation Kool-Aid of the Calvinists.
@@BK-yz7px There is no internal or external evidence to suggest that the objector has a specific identity. This is a red herring designed to avoid dealing with the argument. Anyone who tries to argue against predestination by claiming that if it is true then men are not responsible for their actions is the objector. This is why the objection is addressed to every reader of the passage.
@@philblagden the OBJECTORS ARE those who disagree with Paul, that's the point read Romans 1-3 again
@@crippledtalk The objectors are those who say that if God is sovereign in determining men's destinies then He has no right to hold us accountable for our actions. It is plain as day from the passage. It is those who want to be the masters of their own destiny. Those who refuse to accept that we are clay in the hands of the potter and that He has the right to show mercy to some and justice and wrath to others.
The theological pride Dr. Brown mentioned was very interesting.
Well, Calvinism is a doctrine of demons, and there is a religious pride demon working in their false religion as a counterfeit holy spirit. Te false God of Calvinism is who the devil would be if he were God not who God actually is. I wonder if the demon who receives this reverence is named "Sovereign" or "Sovereignty" because this false church invokes this word in such a way--much more so than to Jesus Christ.
Thank you. Sweet video Dr brown. Timestamp 30:40. How would you like your secret thoughts on the board with your name by it. 🔥 🔥 🔥
What good does it do to pray for someone especially their salvation if God does not control everything? Do they pray that God just tries really hard to save them but does not violate their free will?
I think another way to look at it is, what good does it do to pray for someone’s salvation if God has already determined it?
🎸🎵A mighty fortress is our God🎵😁
Tim Bushong is that you? ;)
Dmeist I can already hear it too
I thought I was the only one hearing it! 😂
Dr. Brown says that he disagrees with the doctrine "because constantly in the Bible we are told to choose, choose choose ,choose." I agree! Calvinist believe that man does have to choose God....but that is done after they have been given a new nature, a nature that wants to choose God and is able to do so. Not a sin nature that is a slave to sin, corrupt and spiritually dead. And so they misrepresent when they say that Calvinism teaches that man doesn't choose God.
Apologia5 Well, Calvinism starts with the fact that man has compatibilistic freedom. Man makes choices according to his nature, but that nature is decreed by God and the man cannot do otherwise. That’s no different than animal instinct. Calvinists have a habit of leaving out that important fatalistic bit that ultimate puts everything back onto God and removes man’s responsibility, no matter how the Calvinist tries to put makeup on it.
@@BK-yz7px "and removes man’s responsibility"
Actually that's what Arminians misrepresent the reformed position as saying. No Calvinist ever removes man's responsibility. Because of God's Sovereignty, man's responsibility matters even more. There's no need for "make-up" cause that's just what the Bible says.
Randy Couture The you might want to take a look at the compatibilism Calvinists teach. It ultimately leads to fatalistic beliefs. There’s no way around it, no matter how Calvinists try to paint it. The moment you believe a person can actually do other than what they are doing, you believe in some level of libertarian freedom. Both compatibilism and hard determinism deny this. Calvinists love to paint this picture as though man is libertarianly making the choice to reject God, and then God has to come in and save some. But that’s not Calvinism at all. In compatibilism, man makes choices according to his nature and that nature is determined and decreed by God. And the big kicker - NO ONE can do other than what they are doing. No matter how you slice it, it leads to fatalism and is no different than animal instinct.
@@BK-yz7px " Calvinists love to paint this picture as though man is libertarianly making the choice to reject God"
No no nope, this is you kicking down and burning up a strawman. Never met a calvinist who ever said humans have a libertarian free will. You don't have a free will. Your will is not free. Your will is captive to sin and the devil. That's what Jesus said and that's what the apostles wrote down. And because your will is captive to these entities, choices you make are always inclining themselves to adhere to their will and that's why everyone needs rescuing. No one rescues themselves, and in fact *no one wants* to be rescued, before anyone believes they're rolling around in the mud enjoying their filth oblivious of the ill effects around them.
John 8:34....Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin
2 Timothy 2:25-26...The minds of unbelievers have been taken captive to do the devil's will
Romans 7 is an entire lament by Paul about how he does things he doesn't want to do because in verse 18 he recognizes that nothing good dwells in his sinful nature.
If you want to talk about foreign beliefs being imported into the Bible then you have to go no further than pelagianism and arminianism. You believe you have good that dwells in your sinful nature and that your will is totally free to choose God without Him first intervening. That's not a Biblical concept. In every single story of redemption in the Bible, every single one, God is the one who acts first. Every time. Arminians and pelagians say in the issue of salvation that man acts first and then God second. Again, that's not Biblical.
God is the one who intervenes and rescues unbelievers from their filth, and He gets 100% of the Glory, not 99.9%, but 100%. The big disconnect is you want to say you contributed to your salvation.
@B K
Are you an incompatibilist?
"John The Immerser". Love it! Read the Greek for what it means!
A great combination.
I am so glad that Dr. Brown corrected flowers on the hardened state of humanity, that we are in fact haters of God by nature and birth. I have way more respect for Dr. brown’s theology.
It’s hard to see how someone can remain an Arminian when “Calvinist” doctrine is consistently and faithfully presented to them. There are “apparent” contradictions with Arminian theology that just isn’t consistently harmonized when someone walks through the texts honestly. Reading John 6:39, 44 & 10 with the backdrop of 1:13 will help reconcile 12:32 and Jesus high priestly prayer in 17 when Christ says He doesn’t pray on “behalf of the world” aka those who aren’t born of the spirit in contrast to flesh & man’s will (John 1:13).
I was an Arminian for the majority of my walk and when I came to these apparent contradictions the Arminian view continuously jumped around and never consistently harmonized the doctrines of the NT. These are bright men but they simply don’t have a consistent interpretation that is able to harmonize the entire Bible. Specifically they have a different view on the doctrine of God’s Sovereignty that makes them view scripture through the Arminian perspective.
>>it's hard the see how someone can remain an arminian
//Because calvinism is inconsistent, inconsistently
Also only Dr Brown's an arminian
Paul Pacheco what’s the difference between scripture and Calvinism?
Trick question, they’re the same!
@@AtomicSea A wide, a very wide gulf that's keeps getting wider as the Holy Spirit leads me to increase understanding and wisdom. The wonderous miracle of having my eyes opened has exploded the Bible open like a field of beautiful flowers. Praise the Lord!!! It has revealed so much behind the words that a majority of people gloss over because they have no understanding. Along with seeing the amazing revelations comes a more disturbing view, that is seeing the many deceptions of the devil. The cleverness and elaborateness of the devil's traps it makes me shutter and hair stand on end. One of the most elaborate deceptions was via the works of Jean Cauvin in Geneva. What would drive a mere man (a humanist too) to demand he and only he was the voice of God, when he spoke it was God speaking?? Is this the mark of a godly man or a puppet of Satan?
Paul Pacheco
John 3:16.. God so loved the world.
1 Timothy 2:4-6.. a ransom for all.
John 12:32.. will draw all men.
Romans 1:16-26.. manifested knowledge.
Luke 2:9-11.. to all people.
Acts 17:30-31.. all men.
Romans 3:26-30.. faith is not a work.
Romans 3:31.. we establish the law through faith.
Romans 5:18-21.. free gift upon all men.
Matthew 11:28.. come unto me, all.
Acts 17:26-27.. he be not far from every one of us.
Matthew 22:1-14.. the called did not listen.
Matthew 14:31.. doubt is Peters fault.
Matthew 15:28.. great is YOUR faith.
2 Peter 2:1.. Jesus bought the damned too.
Matthew 19:24-26.. who can be saved?.. all things are possible.
Matthew 23:37-39.. Jesus would have gathered Jerusalem.
@@AtomicSea No, not a trick question. Calvinism is a different gospel with a different God that is not of Scripture.
If all these bad doctrines trace back to Augustine I really don’t know why we aren’t calling him a false teacher at this point?
brother on the left has compiled great questions!
I was thinking exactly that. Those questions were spot on.
Referencing Matthew 7:17-18 where Jesus says that, "a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor an a bad tree produce good fruit", the questioner asked, "doesn't this imply that a bad tree cannot make good choices/decisions?". (14:20)
Dr. Brown rightly stated that the context is that of discerning false prophets, not whether someone was able to make a decision for the LORD ... but it would be helpful to just look at the other question that would arise from that type of logic: "Does this somehow imply that a good tree cannot make a bad choice/decision?" Of course, *no one* would say that, and therefore it is completely inconsistent for a Calvinist to attempt to go there with that passage.
If a man is starving he would gladly eat road kill!
I would modify the analogy... there is no rope that we take, there is a will that he help us and instead of throwing a rope, he reaches down and grabs men with his own hands who will respond in faith to his drawing.
Open theism is almost never understood correctly by those who reject it. I don't know a single open theist that says that God can't know something without causing it (2:39:00) . What we do say is that if everything you ever do is foreknown with absolute certainty then you are not free. Also open theists do not deny God's omniscience. God knows all that is true and real, but unmade free decisions do not exist to be known until they are made.
“Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
Acts 13:48 NKJV
This is a tough one to refute…
I don't know , it seemed like the last speaker was using John 3:16 incorrectly? Isn't it the offer of grace to everyone? The gift of salvation that needs to be answered by our faith in the Christ. He made it sound like John 3:16 and similar N.T. verses are the end instead of the beginning to ones faith journey. It made Armainianism look kinda shallow. John chapter 3 and 6 go much deeper than that. I admit Calvinism is a hard lesson to learn, and it comes with the pain realizing that people around us aren't saved but I need the truth in this sea of lies that is the natural world. The gift of the cross and hearing the word spread by believers is the bridge that Armainians are trying to cross.
Let us come reason
Amen!
If faith is not a gift from God (his power), then by necessity it is a work (Gk. "ergon"=energy/power i.e., my own mind conjuring up "faith"). Both Arminians and Calvinists affirm "faith alone," therefore Arminians contradict themselves. This is proven by the simple question: "Why does one person repent and receive Christ, while another rejects him based on the same information?" The debate ends with the 72:1 verses in favor of Calvinism in the Bible, but the "nuclear option" for the Calvinist is the following: "This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" Rom. 9:8-21
Amen. We are saved BY grace, through faith. God's grace is what effectively brings salvation. Grace is first and faith is the natural response of sinners made alive by the call of God. We could no more refuse our saviour than Lazarus could resist Jesus command to rise from the dead.
Isn't it more loving for God to guarantee the salvation of His children rather than give them an opportunity to choose to reject Him and spend an eternity in hell?
Anyone else excited for a Dr. White response??
... on the next Dividing Line (or Radio Geneva).
@@IndianaJoe0321 either one
Dr. White needs to watch how two humble men can work together and disagree at the same time.
At this point there's no need for a Dr. White response.
The same Dr. White that loves to willingly misrepresent and slander people? 🤔
*Paul Washer voice* But that's not what the verse says, is it? (Eph. 2:1)
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved;) (Ephesians 2:5, KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 2:6, KJV) The scripture is about what happened when God raised Jesus from the dead. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, (Ephesians 1:20, KJV)
Matt. 7:15f. is not a text about how you can tell believers from unbelievers, at least according to Jesus. He says He's talking about "false prophets", not how to tell who is saved and who is not.
Assumptions kill good Bible study.
I love how they're talking about the importance of CONTEXT in this video. A verse by itself can appear on the surface to support Calvinism, but the verses before and after show that what's being talked about does NOT support Calvinism at all.
Bottom line. Calvinism is a false gospel.
Would be interested to know the context of this. Is it Q and A at the end of another event? What event is going on?
Ironically Dr.Brown and Dr.Flowers also disagree with eachother
That's because Leighton is really an open theist.
@@mmttomb3 too bad thats not true.
@@mmttomb3 proof or just your opinion?
Just like Calvinists also do not agree with each other about everything...
@@mmttomb3 its because brown is a hyper charismatic and flowers is southern baptist you liar
Leighton and Michael my 2 favorite Arminians!
Leighton is a Traditionalist. Not Arminian.
@Atomic Apologetics
It’s hard to tell. He could be an open theist. His apologetic and soft theory of eternity reflect this position.
I swear fewer people understand Arminianism than Calvinism. They aren't opposites! Arminius WAS a 4 point Calvinist! But none of the 5 points are true. And Dr. Brown isn't even an Arminian. He just more closely agrees with the Arminian position on this point of salvation than the completely nonsensical Calvinistic position.
But the thing is--it doesn't really matter because it's like saying God effectually draws us to salvation in two different ways and one sees it as happening all the time--we just don't notice until we need to (Traditionalism), and the other is that God draws when He knows you are ready (Arminianism). Both say you have an obligation to respond and both believe it is God who does the saving.
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The "catch" is what does it mean to believe? Even the demons believe--and tremble. Dr. Brown doesn't believe God created the earth and everything in 6 days.. He's a fan of hugh ross.
In Calvinism, God doesnt throw you a rope, He gets into the pit grabs you and pulls you out.
But He left the four people drowning in the pit with you, and it could have been any one of you that He arbitrarily chose to rescue. Whew! Close one!
@@duskacornwell5932 It might only look arbitrary to us, but we dont know if he chose us due to some reason or not. We will never have access to his infinite wisdom. Also, important thing to note, the other four people DID NOT WANT to get out of the pit. They loved it there.
Sorry.. there is only one.. John 3 16 Rom 10- 9-10. Nothing of man is in that. its not ANY "ISM"
@@maxzeblade Jesus used allegories too. And the debate is between calvinism and arminianism. We are just using words to communicate, dont think too much into it. This rule that anything ISM is of man- thats extrabiblical and of man too.
@@maxzeblade God does not draw all to himself. This was the context of John 6:44 where Jesus was trying to explain why some just wouldnt believe him.
Calvinism doesnt negate human choice, it ADDS to it. It agrees that you have to choose God, but it also says God is mysteriously in control of that choice too without affecting your free will. Read philipians 2:13. Arminianism, which is the popular held Christian view of salvation, believes only in human choice. It does not take into account verses like philip 2:13, acts 13:48, acts 16:14, romans 8:29,30 etc
Neither Paul, John, Luke, or Peter were Calvinists. Calvinism is a 17th century theology born out of egregious misinterpretations of multiple passages of scripture.
You make it so difficult .....look at the theif on the cross ....you will be with me in paradise ....my son wanted to part ways bec of dumb calvinisn. I raised him in the Lord .. now he acts like he is above ...toooo awful. You need compassion ...tell others about Jesus ...quit bringing them to your religion ...bring them to JESUS ...I BRING THE GOSPEL. LETS TALK ABOUT JESUS
Neither Flowers or Brown addressed the question about Ephesians 2:2-3. Why ? Because their bias prevents it.
Those who are by nature children of wrath are also children of disobedience. Hence the children of wrath will not obey the gospel and believe unless they are quickened first. The Salvation of a child of wrath is accomplished by a creative work of God which is certain to come to pass.
the verses are mentioned at 34:10
Greg Lindstrom
They did not address the text.
The Salvation of a child of wrath is accomplished by a creative work of God which is certain to come to pass. I imagine the following to be that creative work! Also in Ephesians. We couldn't see the extent of "it is finished" the earth quaked and the rock split at the foot of the Cross, Christs blood was released by the Roman soldier who pierced his side. While Six hundred years earlier The Ark of the Covenant was moved.. Solomon prepared for its hiding and Jeremiah moved it precisely under the cross yet future! GOLGOTHA.
THE WITNESS OF THE BLOOD IN THE STARS.. REVELATION 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The Rabbi's keep the tablets of stone and the blood (testimony) found on the mercy seat.
I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourn for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
ENMITY is what exists now the solution is in the Fathers witness!
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believe on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believe not God hath made him a liar; because he believe not the record that God gave of his Son.
For it is by His grace we are rescued, through faith; and this is not of yourselves, but it is the gift of Elohim. (when opened). 9. Not of works, or else anyone glory (in themselves). 10. For we are His creation who are created in Y'shua the Mashiyach for good works which Elohim has before prepared for us to walk in. 11. Wherefore be mindful that you formerly were carnal Gentiles; and you were called the uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision of which is the work of the hands in the flesh. 12. And you were, at that time, without the Mashiyach; and were aliens from the Devarim of Israel; and strangers to the covenant of the promise; and were without hope and without Elohim in the world. 13. But now, by Y'shua the Mashiyach, you who before were afar off, have been brought near by the Blood of the Mashiyach. 14. He is Himself our peace, who has
made the two (become) ONE
Wait, 3 hours and 15 minutes on Calvinism, by two guys who don't agree with Calvinism...?
(Nor have little to no understanding of it.)
Hey, I know. How about getting a Calvinist up on stage to discuss Calvinism...
Calvinism is a abomination.
Do Reformed conferences like G3 invite non-Calvinists? Oh yeah. The answer is no. So, maybe you should look in the mirror at people in your camp first.
And Dr. Brown and Dr. White habe engaged with each other and discussed Calvinism MANY times before. To say Dr. Brown doesn’t understand Calvinism is a complete joke.
@@BK-yz7px Flowers was an enthusiastic Calvinist until his eyes were opened.
Actually both have a good understanding of Calvinism, both are former Calvinist, Dr. Flowers was very involve in it
Remember the Roman's 9 debate L.F. had with James White....yikes!
All and all, I love these discussions as we wrestle through the deep things of God and His Word....although I disagree with these fine gentlemen.
TheGanner Yikes was right. James White refused to deal with the points of contention and reneged on his pre-debate agreement. Flowers has shown proof of the pre-debate exchange, and White fully approved of Flowers’ approach to the text. Yet the man turns around and cries like a baby as if he had no clue Flowers was trying to specifically key in on the points of contention between the Calvinist and non-Calvinist interpretations of Romans 9 and why they differ.
@@BK-yz7px the debate speaks for itself.
TheGanner It’s easy to say that when you either are ignorant of James White’s actions or choose to ignore his tactics. The guy completely reneged in his pre-debate agreement. He’s the one who actually derailed the debate because he was NOT dealing with the points of contention. That was the whole purpose. It was never to just read Romans 9. All of the Christians before Augustine and EVERY other Christian group outside of Calvinism DO NOT interpret Romans 9 like a Calvinist. There’s a reason for that, and that needs to be shown. If James White was debating the Trinity against a Oneness or Unitarian person, imagine how James White would feel if that Oneness or Unitarian person forces White to stay on one single text without the ability to bring in other texts to explain the overall picture of God’s nature. White would be crying foul at that. Romans 9 has a context and is NOT meant to be an isolated passage.
@@BK-yz7px I understand your point regarding the use of the entirety Scripture...and I get what L.F. was trying to accomplish. I respect that. I'm not trying to throw stones at either L.F. or M.B. I appreciate them both for their zeal and knowledge of Scripture...and their Christlike character. But my opinion is clearly different than yours regarding the Romans 9 debate. L.F. was arguing against Calvinism and not so much against Rom 9.
TheGanner You also have to keep in mind that this was Dr. Flowers’ very first major public debate. In any other area of life, rookies get a little bit of grace compared to a seasoned veteran. I’m sure a seasoned debater would have seen what was going on and adjusted accordingly on the spot. But I do think all of the background evidence that I’m aware of suggests that White pulled a fast one on Dr. Flowers, taking advantage of his inexperience to paint him in a bad light to the public. But I think anyone who takes an objective step back can see what Dr. Flowers was getting at. As I mentioned earlier, non-Calvinists don’t view Romans 9 as the Calvinist does and there’s a reason and explanation for that. That’s what I keep saying. What really should have come out of the debate was the actual points of contention, but Dr. White got so caught up in formal debate rules and attacked Dr. Flowers’ hermeneutics (which actually is the majority view of Christendom in the grand scope) that he distracted from the whole point of the debate. It was a debate red herring. Dr. Flowers didn’t do anything that wasn’t agreed upon in pre-debate discussions.
Calvinism dumbs down what it means to be made in the image of God.
God does whatever He pleases in heaven and on earth.
Psa 135:6; Dan 4:34-35; Psa 33;6,9-11; since this is true, according to both speakers, it would please God to save everyone. the question is....WHY are some lost and sent to hell?
Well limited atonement is NOT Biblical.God does not pick and choose some elect before he created us. God commands ALL men everywhere to Repent.Calvanism denies this very clear Scripture in acts.And your right as no Calvanist can answer your question.,because its again just wrong!! Even the earliest Reformers rejected the L in tulip/
@@bobfree1226 you really should read this book.. "From Heaven He Came and Sought Her: Definite Atonement in Historical, Biblical, Theological, and Pastoral Perspective"
@@bobfree1226 by the way, I'm a Calvinist. my question comes from a reformed Calvinist point of view...
@@rbmath i have asked you one of the ultimate questions based on Scripture,and most calvanists cant answer it. God does do what He pleases and wills. But Scripture says He commands All men Everywhere to Repent,an Gods light is in all men john 1 verse 4-9.Just because man is a sinner and can not gain Salvation,does not mean he cant Repent and come to God thru Jesus and Believe.we see it over and over in the Bible.Paul underscores this when he says God even appoints mens times and places so that they might find Him. How can you not get this. it is these clear scriptures that even DR Brown and Dr Flowers agree 100% and many others.ive read all the books out there and calvanism is wrong period.again almost ALL early reformers rejected Limited Atonement.which Calvin Himself called Terrible and Dreadful. Enough said.From the beginning of the bible to the end it says Choose,Choose.stop looking thru the lens of calvanism which i did years ago an it is so clear.
@@bobfree1226 Everyone is commanded to repent. Yet we can't do so unless it is granted to us. Those who did not receive Grace will still be doomed according to the desires of their hearths. Everyone knows God to such an extent that they are unapologetous when they deny him. The lost suppress the truth, so they are guilty. Still God is under no obligation to grant faith and repentance to anyone.
Repent and believe the Gospel!!...why do we complicate that?
Agreed!
The same reason man simplifies the Gospel. We are rebel sinners in need of a perfect savior, Christ.
Carlos Padron we don’t complicate it. Both sides agree on that, but we disagree on the TRUE nature of Gods plan & divine will.
Did you miss all the questions?
Why, Carlos? Because Calvinism seeks to make things more difficult for people.
1 Timothy 2:4-6.. a ransom for all.
John 12:32.. will draw all men.
Romans 1:16-26.. manifested knowledge.
Luke 2:9-11.. to all people.
Acts 17:30-31.. all men.
Romans 3:26-30.. faith is not a work.
Romans 3:31.. we establish the law through faith.
Romans 5:18-21.. free gift upon all men.
Matthew 11:28.. come unto me, all.
Acts 17:26-27.. he be not far from every one of us.
Matthew 22:1-14.. the called did not listen.
Matthew 14:31.. doubt is Peters fault.
Matthew 15:28.. great is YOUR faith.
2 Peter 2:1.. Jesus bought the damned too.
Matthew 19:24-26.. who can be saved?.. all things are possible.
Matthew 23:37-39.. Jesus would have gathered Jerusalem.. and the Pharisees didn’t want it. Jesus would not be seen any more until/if they called out to him.
That’s a good point. Are we born to hate God first then he changes us for his glory and ability to save us. Or can we be raised to love God since birth and continue that. But there will always be some to resent their parents. It’s been going on forever.
Psalms 58:3 psalms 51:6 will asnswer the born part
Idk about Dr. Flowers' views, but I know Dr. Brown is a Charismatic Christian. I don't agree with that branch of Christianity, but that doesn't mean I reject all views he has. The same goes for Calvinist pastors; I don't agree with them regarding that specific belief, but I can find sermons they give on other topics very enlightening.
28:19 Great example!
Should we follow a mans doctrine or Gods?
Doctrines are inventions of men. You saying God has a doctrine? I'd say God has commands and requirements.
Strange that they think we are immortal like God. If being dead means only separated from God, it means we are all immortal just like Him. In my readings sometimes it means separated and sometimes really dead.
You had no say in your physical birth, same goes with your spiritual birth it was supernatural as Jesus said in John 3, you must be born again or born from above. So God alone decides who will be saved, people don't like that, but yet trust in God to save sinners when apparently it's up to man to choose God for salvation. You have a huge problem when you reject God's sovereignty, man has control now, not God. And you may think what's the problem with that? It means man can thwart God's plans, which is not possible Job 42:2.
Biblical Theology saying I have no say in my spiritual birth is like saying my mom had all boys so I’ll have all boys. You can’t connect two different ideas just because they’re comparable in wording.
Rejecting Calvinism and determinism doesn’t mean you reject God’s sovereignty. God sovereignly decided to allow us to choose him and be saved, or reject him and be lost.
Amen.
The issue is that Calvinism is just taking Protestantism to its logical conclusion. If credit is all due to God, then men has no responsibility in his salvation. You can’t praise or condemn someone for an action that they have no control over. The heart of the matter is irresistible grace.
To make an analogy. A men is drowning. You offer to help him out of the water, but he refuses and perishes. You give him grace, but he turns it away. It would be fair to say the fault was with his bad decision. You can’t say that if he accepted the help, then all credit is due to you. You can’t have it both ways. If someone makes a bad decision, it’s their fault. If they make the good decision, you’re to take credit.
People are not condemned because they are not given grace. They are condemned because they turn the grace away. What I’m saying is not Arminianism, because that would be obtaining salvation by your own effort.
I know it’s a bitter pill to swallow, but Calvinism is like Islam. God could’ve saved them, but in His infinite wisdom, He just didn’t. It’s not your fault for being a reprobate. Calvinists even sadisticly delight by making the analogy to Oprah. You aren’t entitled to Oprah’s giveaway. She isn’t obliged to give you anything. Salvation is not about making the right choices, it’s about getting lucky.
Remember Noah. He offered people a way out through the ark, but they turned him down. He didn’t tell them. Hey guys, a select few of you are lucky. For the rest you, tough luck.
Your drowning man analogy is faulty for the very reason that you presume that all of humanity is drowning and reaching up for God to help. This view is unbiblical first of all. And secondly, it is nonsensical, a drowning man who knows they are drowning has no reason to *not* grab onto the rope, your analogy says everyone in the world knows that they're drowning but they're refusing to grab the rope but that couldn't be further from the truth. The way salvation is presented in the Bible is that all humans have rebelled but God being rich in mercy and grace saves some *solely* based on His grace (Ephesians 2:4-5) and without compromising His justice and wrath, will exact just punishment to others. This is the Romans 9 argument. That God *does not* deal unjustly with anyone. Your misunderstanding of what grace means is the reason why this is such a stumbling block to you. As it stands, you believe Grace is owed to everyone. Grace is grace because it is unmerited and undeserved. As sinners, no one deserves Grace, if God sent everyone to hell He would be completely Just and righteous in doing so, but Grace has been extended supernaturally to multitudes upon multitudes of people who *do not deserve it* 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 make it abundantly clear that God saves people because He is merciful and not because of anything anyone does that is righteous.
Someone who is guilty (which in this case is all of mankind) could either receive justice or they could receive grace. No one should want to receive justice from God, because that means all your evil deeds, thoughts, and words are laid bare before God and you are judged for every single one of them. Instead you desire for God to show you mercy, like Psalm 51 says, "Have mercy on me o Lord according to your steadfast love, according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin" David desired mercy not justice.
"Calvinism is like Islam"
Actually your drowning man rope analogy is more like Islam and any works-based merit dependent religion out there because you're saying the decisive factor in salvation is based on man's actions. Meaning at the end of the day, what justifies someone/gets them into heaven is the choices the make in this world and the good works they do ie the decision to grab onto the rope and climb is what's the ultimate deciding factor.
"luck"
There's no such thing as luck in the Bible. Look for that word in the Bible and show me where that word or concept appears. It doesn't. There's no such thing as luck in God's universe, and when you import foreign concepts like these back into the Bible that aren't there to begin with and then you caricature the position you're misrepresenting even further, you only work to do yourself a disservice.
I think Dr. Brown does a pretty poor job with his life boat illustration. The difference between monergism and synergism has to do with cooperation. The synergist believes that man must cooperate with God, in order to be saved. Grabbing hold of a life boat is cooperation. When you cooperate with someone, you are by definition contributing to something. The person who grabs hold of the lifeboat is contributing to their salvation.
So grabbing on to the life preserver when your drowning would be a work? Simply believing is now considered a work? Your doing a work to contribute to your salvation?
@Loves2HugItOut
Remember you also must hold on to the life preserver all you life. Then you picked up....finally. 😅
That is not blessed assurance. That is eternal insecurity. Think about the implications of libertarian free will. Do we still keep it in Heaven?
The word of God is obviously the ultimate authority in all matters but just out of curiosity I would like to know the statistics on rejecting a rope life preservers vs accepting one while actively drowning or as it was put swimming in shark infested water??? A good analogies presuposes truth and corresponds to reality I dont see that one holding up?
Okay Carly. Consider the number of cigarette smokers who reject the information about it's affects and continue smoking. Or consider the scientific evidence that an unborn child is a unique individual and capable of feeling pain and at a very early point is capable of living independent of the womb, coupled with the evidence of long term physical and psychological affects on the mother and even on those performing an abortion, yet people continue to support it and actively participate.
Right I would agree with you I find your analogies to definitely correspond to reality and Gods word especially Romans 8 "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."
It follows that it is God who changes a sinners heart from a person who loves sin to a person who hates sin. Someone who is by nature a mind set on the flesh their minds are hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. So how then does a person who is in the flesh "choose" to set there minds on the things of the spirit when Paul lays out that they can not?
Can you explain Romans 8:7?
That the flesh cannot submit to the law of God.
Carlo Para, According to the Bible, the war between the flesh and the Spirit is not a war between body and soul. Instead, it is a struggle within ourselves......a war between the new life granted to us by the Holy Spirit and our sin nature, which will remain until our glorification.
@@carmensiekierke3579 the matter is that the flesh cannot submit to the law of God if you are salvation depends on your responses(flesh) without the work of the Holy Ghost it means that is not work of divine work of God for salvation
@@carlopara4982 English is your second language? Romans 8:7 is not referring to salvation.
@@carmensiekierke3579 yes. actually my third language
@@carlopara4982 Very Cool :-)
I really don't understand how people go to an university and get a doctorate in theology and still don't get the 101 basics of salvation and the Gospel!. Salvation is a very easy thing to grasp and understand if you let the bible speak for itself.Here is the 101 easy understanding of redemption:
1-Sin was brought to humankind (ALL THE WORLD) by Adam and Eve through disobedience to God.
2-Through one man (Adam) all the world (all his descendants) inherited a sinful nature and therefore all are under condemnation by God.
3-If ALL are under the slavery of sin and condemnation logically ALL must be rescued from slavery and death.
4-Jesus came to undo the works of Satan and free ALL those who were under bondage and slavery by offering ALL those who believe in him eternal life.
5-If ,as Calvinist claim , God gave His only begotten Son as an atonement for sin to a selected predestined group of people only.Then that would imply that the rest of the world (the ones not elected),are created and allowed to exist for the sole purpose of making them suffer an eternal punishment in hell!.
6-If point #5 is correct, are we more merciful and loving than God?.If we imperfect and sinful creatures would not create human clones for the sole purpose of sending them to a place of torment and torture here on earth, how could we envision our creator to do such thing and still worship him.The answer is, NO WE ARE NOT MORE LOVING AND MERCIFUL THAN GOD.Therefore God mercy and love would not ever allow such thing as creating beings for the sole purpose of torment and pain without the choice of avoiding such miserable and sad ending.
GRACE MOST BE OFFERED TO ALL WHO ARE SINNERS because a SINFUL nature is the only condition for which Jesus atonement could be effective and valid!.You must be a SINNER for Jesus atonement to be effective, a sinless, righteous and perfect man (Adam before the fall) does not have the need of an atonement.Only those who are under the curse of sin need to be liberated from that curse.If Calvinists are as much as sinners as the rest of humankind , why then Jesus atonement be effective and valid to Calvinists only while ineffective and invalid to the rest who meet the same SINFUL requirement (as Calvinist do) of Jesus atonement?. That is why the Bible says " God so loved the WORLD (ALL SINNERS) that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever ( ALL OF THOSE THAT ARE IN THE WORLD) believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". The whole world (ALL) have the opportunity and offer of grace/mercy but ONLY those (the sheep that hear Jesus voice and follow him) who make the decision of accepting God grace are to BE SAVED!.
So you see, by one man (Adam) SIN and condemnation/death entered humanity (ALL THE WORLD) and by one man ( Jesus) righteousness and salvation/eternal life was brought as an offering to ALL those who believe in the Son of the ALL MIGHTY GOD OF ISRAEL!.If salvation and eternal life would be for only a selected group of people that would imply that the UNIVERSAL ("GOD SO LOVE THE WORLD") expression of an offering of salvation was a lie. My dear friends GOD CAN NOT LIE OR DECEIVE because God is TRUTHFUL,JUST AND HOLY.
You don't need a doctorate to know God's plan of salvation, God made it very simple and easy for us to understand and follow Jesus road to heaven.Through Him, Jesus is the door and we ALL are offered (grace) the key (faith) to get into heaven!.Go and get the key to unlock the door (Jesus) that will give you eternal life and joy in our God kingdom
Love this.