At the time Shimano was developing rapid rise, snapping chains from side-loading force was common, and was therefore partly intended to reduce the lateral pressure on the chain. Back in the day, the issue I found with rapid rise was that at the time, the chains and cassettes weren't as developed as they are today, and under pedal load, the drivetrain didn't downshift as smoothly if the rider didn't reduce pressure during the moment of the shift. Because only the spring of the derailleur was pushing cage to the next cog position, it could stutter and not engage the next the gear as quickly as the 'top normal' type design, which when you pulled the cable, directly moved the rear derailleur. Experienced riders would be used to pausing pedal power briefly to allow the drivetrain to shift, whether going up or down. Upshifting to a higher gear seemed more natural to pause, but downshifting was often done too late, and in a panic for a lower gear under full force, and therefore rapid rise was a way to limit the amount of lateral force that could be applied to the chain under pedal power.
@@clarelafrance306 the chain, running on the cog, will not shift without any force applied. This force is applied by the derailleur - from the side (lateral), of course - bending the chain. In one direction, the force comes from the spring and is therefore limited. In the other direction, it is your thumb that applies the force and depending on your thumb it is limited only by the cable that has to transmit it. Personally, I think it is a very sensible idea to do the harder/trickier part - shifting to bigger cogs - "manually" with full control on the force applied, than to leave this to the limited and sometimes faulty "automatic" force of the derailleur spring - which is affected by friction, dirt, rust, ... so: sorry, no "rapid rise" for me, please :-)
Another great video. Lots of good and a little misguided info. Rapid rise was a great idea for most of what you suggest. But, it failed because under difficult shifting with any load or corrosion or crud- induced friction the down-shifting completely sucked because the spring doesn't work if it is as strong as your thumb (then you couldn't shift against it going up) and it requires less force to up-shift in the rear down-shift in the front). If everyone did a good job of maintaining their drivetrains and shifting under reduced pressure, Rapid Rise may well have succeeded. I think most of us would have appreciated the directional shifting consistency if we could have made it reliable.
Back in 1970-ish Suntour front derailleurs worked opposite. Together with their "normal" rear derailleur, that also worked both levers the same. Pull the cable for a lower gear, regardless of which one.
Rapid Rise is awesome when it's paired with the dual-control STI shifters (flat bar, not the brifters). I still have a late 90's Schwinn Homegrown that I run Rapid Rise XTR with. The brake levers pivot to shift, and the Rapid Rise dereilleur made both shifters pivot in the same direction for upshifts and downshifts. It's really intuitive when properly setup.
OMG! No other channel would show something like this! Hopefully I'm about to get a job as a bike mechanic, looking forward to the day someone brings one in.... No sure that day will ever come through... Great work Russ 😎
I’ve done a ton of touring and I always loved my rapid raise, it’s saved me once and always shifts prefect. Also great hack if you need a 11-40 rear with a double up front using a road shifter, you can rock this on a 10speed
When your 3x8 becomes a 3x3 but it's the right three( 21-24-28) you just keep rolling until you finish in oakracoke. Heck 48x21 with four bags is just fine :-)
My 2009 Deore LX long cage (SGS) Rapid Rise is rated to wrap 45 teeth worth of chain. I have it wrapping 47 and it still works. I don’t think it could handle even one tooth more than that.
I used rapid rise from its inception and love it. For me the winner is the ease of a finger tap gets you easier climbing gears especially if really pulling on the bars for a stiff mtb climb. Come on nobody ever needs a smaller cog on the back faster, ok maybe a sprinter. i hoover up all the old XTR rapid rise 9 speed mechs i see on ebay. Love it.
If I remember correctly (yes, I was around during its introduction) is that it wasn’t as quick “up-shifting” than its “normal” derivative. Competitors cited slower shifts during climbs and normal people were just reluctant to accept differences. Couple this with the demand to produce 2 exact products with differing shift characteristics, the accountants won.
That sounds correct and another aspect was in the heat of challenging terrain (and additionally competition conditions) you easily might blow the shift while seeking the lower gear. Rapid Rise solved that. I used one back in the late 90s. In order to learn you would blow shifts for a couple of weeks. After it's second nature you can ride either system with no issue.
Thanks for highlighting RapidRise (low normal) derailers. I've been curious about these after reading about the one RivBike is developing. RR seems aimed at riders who (as you mention) would prefer dropping into lower gears when doing their harder riding (the opposite of racing). I'll definitely get one from Riv.
Reminds me of how Shimano changed the shift direction on the Alfine internal hubs a couple of years ago. I have bikes with each and it always takes me a block or so to adjust to the direction.
Yeah, I immediately thought of the alfine thumb shifters reversed. Every time I got on that bike I had to remember it was opposite. Ultimately sold the bike after a few years because the gear ratios were so far apart.
Anyone else notice how wild the rear tire looks with the camera set up? Great video, I think having similar sized paddles do similar things on the bike is more intuitive too!
I've still got an old Santa Cruz Blur that has an XTR960 group with Rapid Rise AND Dual Control Levers on it. I really enjoyed racing it and as mentioned when hitting the hills it was always an advantage. The Dual Control levers (triple 9 speed) also have lots of haters but they are elegant in simplicity and I find them easier to use than thumb shifters. The group had other oddities such as the 102BCD chainring...one of a kind, but enough of them out there that you can still find after market ones. The wheels were the most outstanding part of the group. They just stayed incredibly true for zillions of miles. I rarely use the bike these days but love it so much I've had trouble parting with it.
XTR 9-speed rapid rise with cable pulley is still my favorite and the only one that I use. However, it’s getting harder and harder to have one because replacing them is nutz impossible. Still, they are far more efficient provided you can acclimate to them and have a set of rapid fire shifters. They make a buttload of different when going from lowest to highest and can put you there in just three fast depressings of your thumb. Not only does this derailleur assist in getting to easier gears, but it also does so with less strain, and thus less wear and tear as normal shifting. I could go on but I might never stop.
The current Deore LX is available in Low-Normal. I bought one simply because if was mostly silver and it could handle a 34-tooth sprocket. When I installed it is when I figured out what was going on. I love it. It makes so much sense to me. I grew up in the 80s with department store bikes and I swear they shifted the same way... I ride mostly 'country-bike' style and on bike paths and I use thumb shifters set to friction. It's bomb-proof and lets me trim to get the drivetrain running like the quiet miracle that it is. I have since bought 2 more for future builds. With a 44-32-22 up front I have nice low gears for ascending.
I am "pretty sure" that the standard derailleur was designed to have the default position be the smallest cog so that you could remove the wheel with a slack derailleur cable.
@@TrevorOleniuk lol, i'd rather be stuck in 6 than in 1 my friend. i still have a front derailleur so at least with 6 in the rear i can achieve safe road speeds. stuck in 1 in the rear = 8 kmh max speed, lol
Thank you so much for this video on rapid rise. My main concern is that it could make it easier for the derailleur to end up in the spokes if something goes wrong.
i actually had the cable come loose from my megarange speed rapid rise (my fault i didnt tighten the screw enough) and the chain did go into the spokes but once i got the chain back onto 1st gear it was fine, derailleur was fine too and i just had to ride home in 1st, it was mostly up hill home too so i was thankful to be in 1st not 7th i was going very slowly up hill when this happened tho maybe at hogh speed it would be different
In the 1970s, SunTour made some front derailleurs that shifted to the large chainring when there was no cable tension. This was radical because we believed that a spring could not be strong enough to do a good job at it. Or if it were strong enough, it would make shifting to the small chainring into an excessive effort. Well, the derailleurs worked great. I don't know why they didn't succeed. I happen to have an old one hanging around, and I think I'll try it, even with my modern indexed drivetrain.
I find the rapid rise works great with a bar end shifters so that when turning the bars the shifter doesn't hit my leg in largest rear cog. It's pointed downwards instead of upwards in the low gear
One of the most frustrating things about the bike industry is it’s ever change nature. New tech isn’t often created out cyclist’s need but the industry’s need to sell product. That said, as a bike nerd who love the noble invention that is the bicycle almost as much as riding, a bin of strange no longer in use and rare part is an awesome thing. Anything that gets you out on your own path less pedaled is a good thing. Thanks for the esoteric bike tech.
I have that exact XT derailleur and just now learned that it’s not the norm. It’s been great in the three years I’ve had it. I have it on a Trek 7700 converted to a mid-drive ebike. It’s nice when paired with the ebike because accidentally shifting to a harder gear while the motor is running is a good way to wear out all your components in a hurry. Also great job explaining everything. Your videos always go in-depth without ever getting so specific that a more general viewer couldn’t understand what’s going on.
I have this on an old 26" cannondale MTB and really like it - shifts under load really well and rapidly. Just got to remember the cable adjust in reverse to "normal" when tweaking
I've also put this on both my bikes with a 9-speed and a 10-speed rear cassette. Works like a champ! I've used both indexed on and friction on the 9-speed with no issues. I have to say that I much prefer the friction on both bikes. I have used the Dura-Ace 9-speed bar-con shifters, the Silver and Silver II shifters, as well as the Micro-Shift thumb shifters all to excellent effect. If Grant is successful in going to production with the Rivendell Silver rapid-rise, I'll certainly support the effort and buy one or two.
I've been holding on to a couple of low normal derailers for my touring bikes for many years- they're great for running front + rear bar end shifters, not only for the 'both shifters shift the same way intuitively' thing, but that the motion for bailing into a low gear is a pretty easy slap of the lever with the back of palm of your hand on either lever (as opposed to pulling up on your right lever while huffing up a hill to get that lower gear). Even if you're limited to older cassette sizes, a 32t cassette paired to something like a 40/22 double (or, of course, a triple *shudder*) gives you a good low gear and a wider range than a lot of modern 1x setups.
back in the 70s Shimano had a Springless derailleur that used 2 cables. so the lever pulled in both directions. This was pre-indexing but while heavy it shifted very well. I put one on the wife's bike.
Low Normal (aka Rapid Rise or RR) has always made more sense for everyone other than racers (I've been running RR derailleurs for decades). Unfortunately, at least here in the U.S., racing has always driven market trends and RR has pretty much disappeared. Now RR derailleurs are unavailable and the remaining new old stock is extremely overpriced (a friend just paid $260 for a NOS RR XT). Hoping Riv can eventually bring their Silver low normal to market at a reasonable price. In the meantime I'll be keeping my eye out for NOS RR derailleurs on EBay that aren't priced to gouge.
In 2001 I went from an old school friction shifter, (non indexed) to a Rapid Rise XTR. I overheard a conversation between the owner of the shop and a customer how they are not making these anymore, this one had the extra wheel, (aftermarket calls it the "roller ma jig"). This eliminates the large 180 degree loop in the cable shortening the cable and making more precise faster shifting. Since I was clueless as to what they were talking about, I asked. The RR seemed intuitive, more logical. Since it was my first time away from friction shifters, I asked if I could try a bike with the RR. I didn't have a problem with it, (I later found out I was riding a 23 pound Titus Racer X. I still have my Specialized 2001 Rock Hopper Disc with the RR and Magura hydraulic brakes, (these never failed, leaked). I love it, the RR never failed, broke or broke chains. I just bought a used Specialized Stump Jumper ($150) which the previous owner added the XTR (non RR). Kinda weird, like driving in England on the right hand and America on the left hand. Prefer the RR!
One other comment, FWIW, when trying to identify it, Rapid Rise also has the cable binding bolt attached to the outside plate of the parallelogram instead of the inside.
Rapid rise was awesome, back when I was wrenching on bikes ppl where dumping them left and right and now I have so many, all my cross bikes are now rapid rise
Great video. I still have a couple of derailleurs plus their matching mtb brakeshifters where the brake lever was also the shifter. I totally agree the shifting was more intuitive for both sides. It came too late. The matching mtb gear shifter were much easier to shift and needed much less power. I could shift gears without using the thumb. Just wrapping your fingers around the brake lever and moving your fingers up or down would change gears. A thumb paddle was included but could be removed. One major downside was you could inadvertently brake as you shifted. Correct, having bikes with regular derailleurs at the same time was confusing. I loved it. My wife loved it. They came out in the late 90's. Lasted for about 4 years. I don't think the OEM managers took to them so it was more of an aftermarket upgrade as well. Excellent content thank you.
Great video with excellent points! As a bike mechanic and shop owner I'd like to add that I prefer the rapid fall style as it's easier to work on, specifically installing the chain. The little bit of extra work adds up over many bikes. Also, our stash of new and used derailleurs would take up more space if they're rapid rise. As a rider, I prefer rapid rise as the right and left shifters make more sense as you mentioned.
Have an indexed "mega range" rapid rise. I like it a lot. With mine there is one more advantage : cable tension is adjusted at the handle bar rather than derailleur
This dysgraphic loved rapid rise! Mapping the direction of shifting was so much easier. Standard derailleurs have mirrored direction from left hand to right. Sram AXS fixes this!
Thank you so much. Now I finally know what that "weird" derailleur was that came with one of my bikes. Didn't notice a thing because until I had to replace it with another derailleur. Then I noticed that it shifted the other way 😂. But didn't pay any attention to it until now.
I have one on my bike packing rig, and use it with 10 speed bar-end shifters. I bought it because it was cheap. You are right, it is very odd at first, but it only takes a minute or two to adapt. I am happy with it...
The spring provides less force moving to larger cogs vs cables pulling on rd on demand so it may be faster to actively pull the cable if you need quick action.
Great video, Russ! I had heard of Rapid Rise, but had no idea what it was. What a great idea! Wish this was the norm with modern derailleurs now. Always learn something watching your videos.
I have Rapid Rise on my road and cross bike, one with barcons and one with Gevenalle shifters. I could never get used to the regular RD with the barcons since the shifting was opposite. Grant @ Rivendale turned me onto the Rapid Rise. I have the XT-770-SGS on both bikes. On the cross bike, I added a WolfTooth RoadLink and it easily handles a 45T large cog (rated at 34) and wraps 58, rated at 45. Never had any issues with chain drop in 10+ years of use. Only thing that trips me up is those rare times I have to re-index the shifting, you need to reverse the steps in the guides to do that. I usually do it the "normal way", can't figure out why it's not working, then remember it's opposite, dummy!
I converted my 2 main bikes to Rapid Rise a few months ago, and I definitely prefer the shifting feel. It was easy for me because they were both 9-speed and used bar-end shifters, so nothing else needed to change. But I did have to do both bikes, it would have been way too confusing to go from one bike to the other, with shifters working in opposite directions.
There were old suntour front derailleurs that were on the big ring when slack. That changed the left versus right shifter discrepancy. They also had the first ratchet friction shifters. The old way was sort of cables slack = chain slack. Maybe designed by mechanics instead of riders.
Back in the day I found Rapid Rise to be slower when shifting to larger cogs, and sometimes touchy when shifting under load. When mountain biking, quickly getting to an easier gear is the most critical shift, and rapid rise just didn't measure up. For gravel and touring, I imagine this issue is not as noticeable.
And if there was anything even slightly draggy with the cables then you couldn't shift into the larger cogs at all; gravity was not on your side. BITD we had a lot more cable-related issues with Rabid Rise RDs than normal ones. As for the supposed advantages, these are all negated by having things properly adjusted, not exactly onerous. RR existed mainly to stop impatient racers and novices destroying chains and/or RDs, easily avoided with a little technique...
Other than coming out after a standard derailleur, in racing you are more likely to need to get to harder gears as fast as possible rather than easier gears. But for non racing applications the rapid rise seems like a product that would made so much more sense.
Rode a RR derailleur for a while and it was OK, for some of the reasons you mention. I run Shimano dual-control brifters, the long lever arms makes shifting easy so no cable-pull issues either way since my thumbs stay wrapped (not constantly clicking and tiring out ... not sure why they discontinued these). Finally I swapped it out for a normal derailleur, because my I can get 3 index clicks of cable pull with a single swipe versus one step for each release. So, if you care about quick downshifts the RR is less convenient for indexed shifting.
I sort of accidentally used a RD-M580 GS when I converted a mid 80s Trek 420 to upright and Rivendell style components. I use old Rivendell bar end friction shifters. The derailleur shifted MUCH better in friction than the RD M772 9 speed Shadow top normal i installed when I put a triple in front.
As a bike mechanic myself I can see at least a couple of issues with rapid rise derailleurs: first of all this kind of derailleur will always put some tension and therefore strain over at least one of the springs operating it, being it either the derailleur's body or the pulley one, since they can never both rest together in any position; it's really important storing your bike in your smaller chainring and cog combination, or the springs will be in tension and get loose and your derailleur will be dead, seen this happen many times. Second one is a minor one, and has to do with wheel, shifter cable and chain servicing, since the derailleur never gets in a really neutral position on all these fronts at once, which is a pain in the a** to deal with from a mechanical standpoint, and this could have been accounted by shimano themselves, since they always seem to keep the mechanics' mental health in big consideration.
You're right the pulley spring has to go the way it goes to keep tension on the chain. Unless there's some other way to tension the chain, but I have no idea what that would even look like.
pull the chain off the chainring for storing and that will take the tension off both springs in the derailleur ( though that involves getting your fingers greasy..)
I’ve used both the XT derailleur aswell as the XTR version (M760 if I recall). They’re best used with gripshifters, specifically Sachs Quarz/wavey that had a internal spring. Coupled with a Sachs quarz inversed front derailleur. I’ve also used with other shifters - thumbshifter and indexed rapid style shimano shifters with no noticeable effect mis apart it is the other way round.
Loved the rapid rise! But getting used to the otherway around working was hard….. but it worked great especially when shifting under load to a bigger or easier gear!
You're right, Rapid Rise made a lot of sense, particularly for new riders. I had a bike with Rapid Rise, but I'd been riding for years and it took me many months to get used to the new setup, so I had to think a lot more on every ride (and I don't know about you, but part of the reason I ride is to 'switch off'). I had the bike for a couple of years and got used to it eventually. When I got my next bike, it had gone back to regular derailleurs and had to re-learn all over again... 😆
I have a "high-normal" Deore LX M580 and a "low-normal/rapid rise" Deore LX M581 derailleurs on two of my bikes('92 Cannondale M700 and a '94 Cannondale Delta V 600 respectively) . I have both drive-trains set up similarly. 11-34T rear and 44/32/22T up front, the same style trigger shifters(M580 and M570). I would agree that the rapid rise derailleur is more intuitive to use, especially for a rider who is inexperienced with the possible gear combinations a 3x9 setup can have. That said, I am used to the much more common high-normal style rear derailleur but I don't have any major issues in choosing the gear I want when switching between the bikes.
Completely agree with everything you said. I have not read all the hundreds of comments so someone will of picked up on this I am sure. But also if someone that did not know the purpose of B screws and went dabbling with the screwdriver there was the potential for more mechs in wheels.
Ancient bike history; if you go back to the 1950s, some of the first derailleurs by Huret and Simplex worked the same way, but without a parallelogram. The derailleur non-tension position was inwards so the lower gear, and a cable pulled it outwards against a helical spring. My dad’s 1950s “2x4” bike has such a system (with the front shifter operated by a lever and rod on the seat tube...!). So low normal / rapid rise did come first!!
I intentionally ride low normal, and find it much more intuitive. For a heavy gear, I need to use force (on the thumb). For a lighter gear, I give a light click. Also, with force for the higher gear, I can time it exactly with my pedal strokes when accelerating. If going uphill, I can shift down without cutting power. I don't look forward to the day my old LX derailleur dies..
dont know man .. i think my roadshifters do the same thing on both sides: small lever drops the chain, big one pulls the chain up. cool to know such deraileurs exist, though.
I worked in a bike shop in the late 90s when this idea came out in the UK. I recall that it was mainly seen on bikes with the Nexus/Nexave group sets and these seemed to be marketed as ‘easier’ to understand in operation at a time when the average consumer expressed some confusion at bikes with increasing numbers of gears (21 speeds was seen by some as a ludicrous amount). Your suggestion that it might be more logical for the mech to settle in a lower gear backs this up. My only experience of using something like this has been with an Alfine hub operated by a rapidfire shifter. In this case the shifting happens in the opposite direction to my conventional derailleur bike. This caused brief confusion for me when swapping between bikes with the same type of shifter but opposite shifting directions. I’ve now fitted the derailleur bike with Sunrace friction shifters and the confusion has subsided.
This is amazing. I almost had to draw a diagram to follow along. And I go back to downtube friction shifting. Crazy to think how pulling on the left or right meant opposite things but that’s just how it was.
i bought a 7 speed megarange one and its awesome with my rly cheap friction shifter theres alot of 9 speed ones on ebay which il definetly get in the future
I use one of these with grip shifters on my touring bike and it works fine. I hated it at first, but once I got used to it, I don't mind it so much. They work fine for party pace and touring bikes. Besides deviating from the norm, I think they may have failed because the bike racing culture didn't like them and we all know they drive most of the technological parts of the industry.
I had maybe that same model of rapid rise derailleur back in the early 2000s on my Trek 4900 - bought it while upgrading from 7spd to I believe 8spd (I think I also dropped from triple to double chain rings). I didn't know I was getting RR at the time or what it was, I think it was probably on sale. It was a mixed experience, but overall I grew to love it and wish it was the norm for all bikes, but it kind of needs to be all or nothing. It definitely messed with my mind for awhile, fighting years of muscle memory of which way to shift with trigger shifters, especially as a mountain biker on technical steep trails where shifts had to be perfectly timed and missing a shift means you're hiking for a bit. But with some time RR became natural and I found it to be superior in a lot of ways. Like you mentioned, aside from having to unlearn the traditional way, it was so much more sensible to have the left and right triggers work in the same way. It also was a huge improvement in downshifting performance when climbing - I didn't have to let off the power nearly as much as I did with traditional derailleurs, which definitely helped with those aforementioned steep technical Colorado climbs. Especially helpful since I didn't know what I was doing and tended to grind away on way too hard a gear, only mashing down to a lower one when I could barely turn the cranks over any more :/ It did worry me a bit that the derailleur wanted to throw itself into my spokes and destroy my wheel if given the chance, so setting that limit screw right was all the more important. I did have some issues as an amateur at home mechanic not fully understanding limit screws or having mastered derailleur setup. Thankfully I learned my lesson about limits quickly so all of the wheel and derailleur entanglements happened on the work stand and not the trail, so it survived to live a long and healthy life. Eventually tho, it wasn't the only bike I owned, and I found myself having to swap between rapid rise and high normal shifting depending on which bike I was on. When I was first making the transition to RR, I would always remind myself "it's the opposite of what you think" before shifting, and that worked to fight my old instincts. But that led to a real mess when I had RR and normal - I can remember distinct moments climbing up some horrendous chunk with my heart beating out of my chest and having an internal mental battle about which trigger to hit to shift to drop into that critical lower gear, desperate to get it right, but my oxygen deprived mind not being able to remember which bike I'm on and whether it's "opposite" or normal and which way "opposite" even is. Every single shift I had to consciously think about which bike I was on and which trigger did what, and half the time get it wrong, it was a special form of torture. That also carried over to making adjustments to the derailleurs, which I was already mediocre at, so flipping back and forth between the two made it impossible for me to remember which way to turn the barrel adjuster. It's a real shame that RR wasn't what became the standard, because from my experience it did work better overall.
Russ, was just wondering what the chain tension is like on this derailleur? In short, does it eliminate the need for a clutch? Seems like the standard is always allowing the chain to fall toward the stay. Does it need a clutch in reality? You are spot on about the counter-intuitive nature. One of the most difficult things to explain to new riders is the shifting pattern logic. I do think the upside down would be easier to coach.
I have a Deore LX RD-M580 derailleur and it hits the chainstay in rough terrain if it is in the 2 smallest cogs. So far, in the 12 years I've had it, that's the only problem I've found.
My mind is blown, love it, wish I had it. I use friction shifters and this would be great. Probably failed because I thiink it would be more difficult to remove the wheel quickly. But I think the concept is great.
If you're going to look at wacky RDs for fun, you could look for a shimano positron. It's 5 speed only (iirc, might be some examples that differ) and has no compatibility with any levers beyond those made specifically for it. The reason for that is because it uses a solid wire to push-pull instead of stranded and a spring, and the indexing is in the derailleur instead of the lever. I have a bike outfitted with it that I use for groceries. It feels "clunky" to use vs my other bikes, but in a "push button cassette player" way, not an "unbalanced lawnmower blade" way.
Suntour did that idea first. Suntour had the front and rear shifters shifting in a similar style. Those old friction shifters were on the down tube or friction shifters were on the stem. On that system, a big gear lifting spring was on the front derailleur. With both levers all the way forward is was the highest gear and both levers all the way back was low gear.
I've got 2 RR mechs one running with an adapted LH friction like yours and it's great on my commuter/winter road bike, the other is on an MTB run with a dual control lever (as Shimano originally intended) and again it works very well, smooths down shifts and because the shifter works more like my brain is wired for top normal already it is pretty familiar in terms of operation...
I like mine in conjunction with deore 6spd friction thumbies (above bar) on an albatross bar, frees up hand space when in the 'tonk it' gear...I enjoy the shifter symmetry. :)
I remember a bike in my childhood having an RD like that. Shifting to easier gears was pretty unreliable if I remember correctly, I think it was the bail out gear that gave it the most difficulty. It's been a decade or two by now though...
I’ve got a Rapid Rise Deore LX “9-speed” on my 2009 Rivendell Sam Hillbourne. Only one complaint. With the Rivendell Silver Shifters that use friction in one direction and the micro-ratchet in the other, the spring of the Rapid Rise seems to pull against the friction direction of the shifter, and that allows it to slip occasionally, no matter how hard the friction screw is tightened. If the RD were top-normal, the spring would (I think) pull against the micro ratchet direction of the shifter. That, I think, would give a bit more resistance to slipping. Otherwise, it works great. My wife’s bike has an otherwise nearly identical, top-normal Deore 9-speed with very similar cassette and Silver Shifters. It works great and does not seem to encounter the same slipping issue.
That makes sense if I'm understanding you correctly. Is the ratchet designed to resist more in one direction than the other? If the spring is pulling in the other direction I can see how that might slip.
Hey Russ i love friction shifter. Could you consider making a video from the caveof bad ideas. Make video using friction shifter with bullhorn handlebars 😊
I've had a Dahon folding bike with a derraileur that had this same "feature". Except for the inverted action on the shifter, i've never noticed any practical difference.
I think if it works for you, you should use it. I have a rapid rise Deore RD on a 2007 comfort bike. It was my first bike with mtb STI shifters and it was just so intuitive to think, “big paddle = bigger gear.” I’m bit shredding with it, just commuting and bopping around town. It works perfectly.
I’ve never heard of this but one of my biggest frustrations during winter riding is getting my derailleur frozen and only having the ability to pull the cable with the spring being unable to put tension against the slack making it impossible to shift into the harder gears. I have a few hills but most of my 13 mile ride to work is flat, it is extremely frustrating to not be able to put it into the harder gears and being forced to spin just to maintain 2/3rds the rate of speed that I normally travel at. So yeah, this would be helpful for me but for the opposite reason to yours. My current solution is to switch the bike to a single speed for the winter and back for the spring.
My 2005 Cannondale T800 touring bike has exactly the XT RR you have. At first I hated it, because it was ”wrong”, and you have to reprogram you brain every time switching between the T800 and the road bike, since they both have Ultegra integrated shifters on the drop bars. But when I put bar-end shifters on the T800 i made much more sense. I love it. And no problem when switching between bikes. Unfortunately I going to build a new touring bike now and retire the T800 after many many kilometers. And the new bike will unfortunately have to have a normal Shimano Alivio with Microshift bar-end shifters. So once again I will have to reprogram my brain.
The more options, the better! Me, I'm holding out hoping Jan Heine puts out a reproduction of the "no normal" Nivex derailleur with desmodromic cable control. We all have our dreams...
At the time Shimano was developing rapid rise, snapping chains from side-loading force was common, and was therefore partly intended to reduce the lateral pressure on the chain. Back in the day, the issue I found with rapid rise was that at the time, the chains and cassettes weren't as developed as they are today, and under pedal load, the drivetrain didn't downshift as smoothly if the rider didn't reduce pressure during the moment of the shift. Because only the spring of the derailleur was pushing cage to the next cog position, it could stutter and not engage the next the gear as quickly as the 'top normal' type design, which when you pulled the cable, directly moved the rear derailleur. Experienced riders would be used to pausing pedal power briefly to allow the drivetrain to shift, whether going up or down. Upshifting to a higher gear seemed more natural to pause, but downshifting was often done too late, and in a panic for a lower gear under full force, and therefore rapid rise was a way to limit the amount of lateral force that could be applied to the chain under pedal power.
What is side-loading force?
@@clarelafrance306 the chain, running on the cog, will not shift without any force applied. This force is applied by the derailleur - from the side (lateral), of course - bending the chain. In one direction, the force comes from the spring and is therefore limited. In the other direction, it is your thumb that applies the force and depending on your thumb it is limited only by the cable that has to transmit it. Personally, I think it is a very sensible idea to do the harder/trickier part - shifting to bigger cogs - "manually" with full control on the force applied, than to leave this to the limited and sometimes faulty "automatic" force of the derailleur spring - which is affected by friction, dirt, rust, ... so: sorry, no "rapid rise" for me, please :-)
Another great video. Lots of good and a little misguided info. Rapid rise was a great idea for most of what you suggest. But, it failed because under difficult shifting with any load or corrosion or crud- induced friction the down-shifting completely sucked because the spring doesn't work if it is as strong as your thumb (then you couldn't shift against it going up) and it requires less force to up-shift in the rear down-shift in the front). If everyone did a good job of maintaining their drivetrains and shifting under reduced pressure, Rapid Rise may well have succeeded. I think most of us would have appreciated the directional shifting consistency if we could have made it reliable.
Back in 1970-ish Suntour front derailleurs worked opposite. Together with their "normal" rear derailleur, that also worked both levers the same. Pull the cable for a lower gear, regardless of which one.
Yeah. Seeing this video made me want to go into the basement and see if my memory was correct.
Thank you I was just wondering if anyone ever tried that. How were they? Did they work ok?
Rapid Rise is awesome when it's paired with the dual-control STI shifters (flat bar, not the brifters). I still have a late 90's Schwinn Homegrown that I run Rapid Rise XTR with. The brake levers pivot to shift, and the Rapid Rise dereilleur made both shifters pivot in the same direction for upshifts and downshifts. It's really intuitive when properly setup.
I tried a set late last year, didn't take long to get used to them.
OMG! No other channel would show something like this! Hopefully I'm about to get a job as a bike mechanic, looking forward to the day someone brings one in.... No sure that day will ever come through... Great work Russ 😎
I pretty much try to imagine videos GCN won’t do and try to do them.
I’ve done a ton of touring and I always loved my rapid raise, it’s saved me once and always shifts prefect. Also great hack if you need a 11-40 rear with a double up front using a road shifter, you can rock this on a 10speed
When your 3x8 becomes a 3x3 but it's the right three( 21-24-28) you just keep rolling until you finish in oakracoke. Heck 48x21 with four bags is just fine :-)
I have an xtr that is a rapid rise one. Never had heard the term or seen a video on this one. It is a cool thing to be sure.
I have had one on my surly for years. Works especially well with friction shifters. I moved away from index shifting years ago and never looked back.
Back in the day, this was used with dual control levers. It made sense that way. But not with rapid fire shifters
My 2009 Deore LX long cage (SGS) Rapid Rise is rated to wrap 45 teeth worth of chain. I have it wrapping 47 and it still works. I don’t think it could handle even one tooth more than that.
I used rapid rise from its inception and love it. For me the winner is the ease of a finger tap gets you easier climbing gears especially if really pulling on the bars for a stiff mtb climb. Come on nobody ever needs a smaller cog on the back faster, ok maybe a sprinter.
i hoover up all the old XTR rapid rise 9 speed mechs i see on ebay. Love it.
I have the XTR rapid rise too, the idea that It didn't catch on, for me is insanity.
If I remember correctly (yes, I was around during its introduction) is that it wasn’t as quick “up-shifting” than its “normal” derivative.
Competitors cited slower shifts during climbs and normal people were just reluctant to accept differences. Couple this with the demand to produce 2 exact products with differing shift characteristics, the accountants won.
That sounds correct and another aspect was in the heat of challenging terrain (and additionally competition conditions) you easily might blow the shift while seeking the lower gear. Rapid Rise solved that. I used one back in the late 90s. In order to learn you would blow shifts for a couple of weeks. After it's second nature you can ride either system with no issue.
Thanks for highlighting RapidRise (low normal) derailers. I've been curious about these after reading about the one RivBike is developing. RR seems aimed at riders who (as you mention) would prefer dropping into lower gears when doing their harder riding (the opposite of racing). I'll definitely get one from Riv.
Reminds me of how Shimano changed the shift direction on the Alfine internal hubs a couple of years ago. I have bikes with each and it always takes me a block or so to adjust to the direction.
Yeah, I immediately thought of the alfine thumb shifters reversed. Every time I got on that bike I had to remember it was opposite. Ultimately sold the bike after a few years because the gear ratios were so far apart.
Anyone else notice how wild the rear tire looks with the camera set up? Great video, I think having similar sized paddles do similar things on the bike is more intuitive too!
I've still got an old Santa Cruz Blur that has an XTR960 group with Rapid Rise AND Dual Control Levers on it. I really enjoyed racing it and as mentioned when hitting the hills it was always an advantage. The Dual Control levers (triple 9 speed) also have lots of haters but they are elegant in simplicity and I find them easier to use than thumb shifters. The group had other oddities such as the 102BCD chainring...one of a kind, but enough of them out there that you can still find after market ones. The wheels were the most outstanding part of the group. They just stayed incredibly true for zillions of miles. I rarely use the bike these days but love it so much I've had trouble parting with it.
XTR 9-speed rapid rise with cable pulley is still my favorite and the only one that I use. However, it’s getting harder and harder to have one because replacing them is nutz impossible. Still, they are far more efficient provided you can acclimate to them and have a set of rapid fire shifters. They make a buttload of different when going from lowest to highest and can put you there in just three fast depressings of your thumb. Not only does this derailleur assist in getting to easier gears, but it also does so with less strain, and thus less wear and tear as normal shifting. I could go on but I might never stop.
The current Deore LX is available in Low-Normal. I bought one simply because if was mostly silver and it could handle a 34-tooth sprocket. When I installed it is when I figured out what was going on. I love it. It makes so much sense to me. I grew up in the 80s with department store bikes and I swear they shifted the same way... I ride mostly 'country-bike' style and on bike paths and I use thumb shifters set to friction. It's bomb-proof and lets me trim to get the drivetrain running like the quiet miracle that it is. I have since bought 2 more for future builds. With a 44-32-22 up front I have nice low gears for ascending.
I am "pretty sure" that the standard derailleur was designed to have the default position be the smallest cog so that you could remove the wheel with a slack derailleur cable.
And yet, I shift *much* more often than I remove the wheel.
@@Korina42 Speak for yourself
Indexed shifters would make this issue irrelevant?
@@TrevorOleniuk lol, i'd rather be stuck in 6 than in 1 my friend. i still have a front derailleur so at least with 6 in the rear i can achieve safe road speeds. stuck in 1 in the rear = 8 kmh max speed, lol
@@johnsmithers284 I was.
Thank you so much for this video on rapid rise. My main concern is that it could make it easier for the derailleur to end up in the spokes if something goes wrong.
True!
Not if limits are set properly.
i actually had the cable come loose from my megarange speed rapid rise (my fault i didnt tighten the screw enough) and the chain did go into the spokes but once i got the chain back onto 1st gear it was fine, derailleur was fine too and i just had to ride home in 1st, it was mostly up hill home too so i was thankful to be in 1st not 7th
i was going very slowly up hill when this happened tho maybe at hogh speed it would be different
In the 1970s, SunTour made some front derailleurs that shifted to the large chainring when there was no cable tension. This was radical because we believed that a spring could not be strong enough to do a good job at it. Or if it were strong enough, it would make shifting to the small chainring into an excessive effort. Well, the derailleurs worked great. I don't know why they didn't succeed. I happen to have an old one hanging around, and I think I'll try it, even with my modern indexed drivetrain.
I work with them all the time at my shop, actually have 4 of that same deore. they're excellent
I find the rapid rise works great with a bar end shifters so that when turning the bars the shifter doesn't hit my leg in largest rear cog. It's pointed downwards instead of upwards in the low gear
One of the most frustrating things about the bike industry is it’s ever change nature. New tech isn’t often created out cyclist’s need but the industry’s need to sell product. That said, as a bike nerd who love the noble invention that is the bicycle almost as much as riding, a bin of strange no longer in use and rare part is an awesome thing.
Anything that gets you out on your own path less pedaled is a good thing. Thanks for the esoteric bike tech.
I have that exact XT derailleur and just now learned that it’s not the norm. It’s been great in the three years I’ve had it. I have it on a Trek 7700 converted to a mid-drive ebike.
It’s nice when paired with the ebike because accidentally shifting to a harder gear while the motor is running is a good way to wear out all your components in a hurry.
Also great job explaining everything. Your videos always go in-depth without ever getting so specific that a more general viewer couldn’t understand what’s going on.
I have this on an old 26" cannondale MTB and really like it - shifts under load really well and rapidly. Just got to remember the cable adjust in reverse to "normal" when tweaking
I've also put this on both my bikes with a 9-speed and a 10-speed rear cassette. Works like a champ! I've used both indexed on and friction on the 9-speed with no issues. I have to say that I much prefer the friction on both bikes. I have used the Dura-Ace 9-speed bar-con shifters, the Silver and Silver II shifters, as well as the Micro-Shift thumb shifters all to excellent effect. If Grant is successful in going to production with the Rivendell Silver rapid-rise, I'll certainly support the effort and buy one or two.
I've been holding on to a couple of low normal derailers for my touring bikes for many years- they're great for running front + rear bar end shifters, not only for the 'both shifters shift the same way intuitively' thing, but that the motion for bailing into a low gear is a pretty easy slap of the lever with the back of palm of your hand on either lever (as opposed to pulling up on your right lever while huffing up a hill to get that lower gear). Even if you're limited to older cassette sizes, a 32t cassette paired to something like a 40/22 double (or, of course, a triple *shudder*) gives you a good low gear and a wider range than a lot of modern 1x setups.
back in the 70s Shimano had a Springless derailleur that used 2 cables. so the lever pulled in both directions. This was pre-indexing but while heavy it shifted very well. I put one on the wife's bike.
Low Normal (aka Rapid Rise or RR) has always made more sense for everyone other than racers (I've been running RR derailleurs for decades). Unfortunately, at least here in the U.S., racing has always driven market trends and RR has pretty much disappeared. Now RR derailleurs are unavailable and the remaining new old stock is extremely overpriced (a friend just paid $260 for a NOS RR XT). Hoping Riv can eventually bring their Silver low normal to market at a reasonable price. In the meantime I'll be keeping my eye out for NOS RR derailleurs on EBay that aren't priced to gouge.
i had a rapid rise on an sworks racing hardtail back in the days when i was young and serious. i absolutely loved it
Best explanation of the rapid rise design I’ve seen. Nice work Russ.
i have one of these and i love it, it's much more intuitive as far as gear ratios are concerned.
Yup, had an XTR 9 speed installed on my 2001 GF Paragon after mangling the original. Been my favorite ever since.
Got an '05 Storck hardtail with full M960 XTR with rapid rise (with the flatbar brifters!). Honestly such a nice addition to an old party pace bike :)
In 2001 I went from an old school friction shifter, (non indexed) to a Rapid Rise XTR. I overheard a conversation between the owner of the shop and a customer how they are not making these anymore, this one had the extra wheel, (aftermarket calls it the "roller ma jig"). This eliminates the large 180 degree loop in the cable shortening the cable and making more precise faster shifting. Since I was clueless as to what they were talking about, I asked. The RR seemed intuitive, more logical. Since it was my first time away from friction shifters, I asked if I could try a bike with the RR. I didn't have a problem with it, (I later found out I was riding a 23 pound Titus Racer X. I still have my Specialized 2001 Rock Hopper Disc with the RR and Magura hydraulic brakes, (these never failed, leaked). I love it, the RR never failed, broke or broke chains. I just bought a used Specialized Stump Jumper ($150) which the previous owner added the XTR (non RR). Kinda weird, like driving in England on the right hand and America on the left hand. Prefer the RR!
One other comment, FWIW, when trying to identify it, Rapid Rise also has the cable binding bolt attached to the outside plate of the parallelogram instead of the inside.
Yes, I was going to mention that.
Well I never!!! Learnt something new with this, first time I ever heard of derrailleurs going the other way tensionwise. Excellent explination
Rapid rise was awesome, back when I was wrenching on bikes ppl where dumping them left and right and now I have so many, all my cross bikes are now rapid rise
Great video. I still have a couple of derailleurs plus their matching mtb brakeshifters where the brake lever was also the shifter. I totally agree the shifting was more intuitive for both sides. It came too late.
The matching mtb gear shifter were much easier to shift and needed much less power. I could shift gears without using the thumb. Just wrapping your fingers around the brake lever and moving your fingers up or down would change gears. A thumb paddle was included but could be removed. One major downside was you could inadvertently brake as you shifted. Correct, having bikes with regular derailleurs at the same time was confusing. I loved it. My wife loved it. They came out in the late 90's. Lasted for about 4 years. I don't think the OEM managers took to them so it was more of an aftermarket upgrade as well. Excellent content thank you.
Great video with excellent points! As a bike mechanic and shop owner I'd like to add that I prefer the rapid fall style as it's easier to work on, specifically installing the chain. The little bit of extra work adds up over many bikes. Also, our stash of new and used derailleurs would take up more space if they're rapid rise. As a rider, I prefer rapid rise as the right and left shifters make more sense as you mentioned.
Have an indexed "mega range" rapid rise. I like it a lot. With mine there is one more advantage : cable tension is adjusted at the handle bar rather than derailleur
This dysgraphic loved rapid rise! Mapping the direction of shifting was so much easier. Standard derailleurs have mirrored direction from left hand to right. Sram AXS fixes this!
Thank you so much. Now I finally know what that "weird" derailleur was that came with one of my bikes. Didn't notice a thing because until I had to replace it with another derailleur. Then I noticed that it shifted the other way 😂. But didn't pay any attention to it until now.
I use these with drop bars and the early brake lever/thumb click shifters. Braking and changing down with the thumb click works really well.
I have one on my bike packing rig, and use it with 10 speed bar-end shifters. I bought it because it was cheap. You are right, it is very odd at first, but it only takes a minute or two to adapt. I am happy with it...
The spring provides less force moving to larger cogs vs cables pulling on rd on demand so it may be faster to actively pull the cable if you need quick action.
Great video, Russ! I had heard of Rapid Rise, but had no idea what it was. What a great idea! Wish this was the norm with modern derailleurs now. Always learn something watching your videos.
I have Rapid Rise on my road and cross bike, one with barcons and one with Gevenalle shifters. I could never get used to the regular RD with the barcons since the shifting was opposite. Grant @ Rivendale turned me onto the Rapid Rise. I have the XT-770-SGS on both bikes. On the cross bike, I added a WolfTooth RoadLink and it easily handles a 45T large cog (rated at 34) and wraps 58, rated at 45. Never had any issues with chain drop in 10+ years of use.
Only thing that trips me up is those rare times I have to re-index the shifting, you need to reverse the steps in the guides to do that. I usually do it the "normal way", can't figure out why it's not working, then remember it's opposite, dummy!
Thanks Russ, you answered all my rapid rise wonders
Love my rapid rise on my daily commuter, as I am often blocked off and have to change gears to start going again.
i now have a c201 and an m760 and i absolutely love them both, i use a sram twisty with the m760 and its the absolute peak of shifting performance
I converted my 2 main bikes to Rapid Rise a few months ago, and I definitely prefer the shifting feel. It was easy for me because they were both 9-speed and used bar-end shifters, so nothing else needed to change. But I did have to do both bikes, it would have been way too confusing to go from one bike to the other, with shifters working in opposite directions.
I have bikes set up both ways, and let's just say I get instant feedback when I screw up. No big deal!
One of my coworkers left a note with a job I was going to work on a bike with this setup. He was like “rapid-rise, suckers! Have fun bwaaa hahaha!”
There were old suntour front derailleurs that were on the big ring when slack. That changed the left versus right shifter discrepancy. They also had the first ratchet friction shifters. The old way was sort of cables slack = chain slack. Maybe designed by mechanics instead of riders.
I think this is the most bike geek video ever....love it. Thank you for always providing great info to all of us bike nerds.
Back in the day I found Rapid Rise to be slower when shifting to larger cogs, and sometimes touchy when shifting under load. When mountain biking, quickly getting to an easier gear is the most critical shift, and rapid rise just didn't measure up. For gravel and touring, I imagine this issue is not as noticeable.
And if there was anything even slightly draggy with the cables then you couldn't shift into the larger cogs at all; gravity was not on your side. BITD we had a lot more cable-related issues with Rabid Rise RDs than normal ones. As for the supposed advantages, these are all negated by having things properly adjusted, not exactly onerous. RR existed mainly to stop impatient racers and novices destroying chains and/or RDs, easily avoided with a little technique...
Other than coming out after a standard derailleur, in racing you are more likely to need to get to harder gears as fast as possible rather than easier gears. But for non racing applications the rapid rise seems like a product that would made so much more sense.
yeh, road racing,
maybe not climbing on mug
Rode a RR derailleur for a while and it was OK, for some of the reasons you mention. I run Shimano dual-control brifters, the long lever arms makes shifting easy so no cable-pull issues either way since my thumbs stay wrapped (not constantly clicking and tiring out ... not sure why they discontinued these). Finally I swapped it out for a normal derailleur, because my I can get 3 index clicks of cable pull with a single swipe versus one step for each release. So, if you care about quick downshifts the RR is less convenient for indexed shifting.
I sort of accidentally used a RD-M580 GS when I converted a mid 80s Trek 420 to upright and Rivendell style components. I use old Rivendell bar end friction shifters. The derailleur shifted MUCH better in friction than the RD M772 9 speed Shadow top normal i installed when I put a triple in front.
As a bike mechanic myself I can see at least a couple of issues with rapid rise derailleurs: first of all this kind of derailleur will always put some tension and therefore strain over at least one of the springs operating it, being it either the derailleur's body or the pulley one, since they can never both rest together in any position; it's really important storing your bike in your smaller chainring and cog combination, or the springs will be in tension and get loose and your derailleur will be dead, seen this happen many times.
Second one is a minor one, and has to do with wheel, shifter cable and chain servicing, since the derailleur never gets in a really neutral position on all these fronts at once, which is a pain in the a** to deal with from a mechanical standpoint, and this could have been accounted by shimano themselves, since they always seem to keep the mechanics' mental health in big consideration.
You're right the pulley spring has to go the way it goes to keep tension on the chain. Unless there's some other way to tension the chain, but I have no idea what that would even look like.
pull the chain off the chainring for storing and that will take the tension off both springs in the derailleur ( though that involves getting your fingers greasy..)
I’ve used both the XT derailleur aswell as the XTR version (M760 if I recall). They’re best used with gripshifters, specifically Sachs Quarz/wavey that had a internal spring. Coupled with a Sachs quarz inversed front derailleur. I’ve also used with other shifters - thumbshifter and indexed rapid style shimano shifters with no noticeable effect mis apart it is the other way round.
I remember having an XTR derailleur that was set up like that on a Cannondale jekyll my cousin had many years ago.
Loved the rapid rise! But getting used to the otherway around working was hard….. but it worked great especially when shifting under load to a bigger or easier gear!
You're right, Rapid Rise made a lot of sense, particularly for new riders. I had a bike with Rapid Rise, but I'd been riding for years and it took me many months to get used to the new setup, so I had to think a lot more on every ride (and I don't know about you, but part of the reason I ride is to 'switch off'). I had the bike for a couple of years and got used to it eventually. When I got my next bike, it had gone back to regular derailleurs and had to re-learn all over again... 😆
I have a "high-normal" Deore LX M580 and a "low-normal/rapid rise" Deore LX M581 derailleurs on two of my bikes('92 Cannondale M700 and a '94 Cannondale Delta V 600 respectively) . I have both drive-trains set up similarly. 11-34T rear and 44/32/22T up front, the same style trigger shifters(M580 and M570). I would agree that the rapid rise derailleur is more intuitive to use, especially for a rider who is inexperienced with the possible gear combinations a 3x9 setup can have. That said, I am used to the much more common high-normal style rear derailleur but I don't have any major issues in choosing the gear I want when switching between the bikes.
Completely agree with everything you said. I have not read all the hundreds of comments so someone will of picked up on this I am sure. But also if someone that did not know the purpose of B screws and went dabbling with the screwdriver there was the potential for more mechs in wheels.
Ancient bike history; if you go back to the 1950s, some of the first derailleurs by Huret and Simplex worked the same way, but without a parallelogram. The derailleur non-tension position was inwards so the lower gear, and a cable pulled it outwards against a helical spring. My dad’s 1950s “2x4” bike has such a system (with the front shifter operated by a lever and rod on the seat tube...!). So low normal / rapid rise did come first!!
I intentionally ride low normal, and find it much more intuitive. For a heavy gear, I need to use force (on the thumb). For a lighter gear, I give a light click. Also, with force for the higher gear, I can time it exactly with my pedal strokes when accelerating. If going uphill, I can shift down without cutting power. I don't look forward to the day my old LX derailleur dies..
dont know man .. i think my roadshifters do the same thing on both sides: small lever drops the chain, big one pulls the chain up. cool to know such deraileurs exist, though.
I worked in a bike shop in the late 90s when this idea came out in the UK.
I recall that it was mainly seen on bikes with the Nexus/Nexave group sets and these seemed to be marketed as ‘easier’ to understand in operation at a time when the average consumer expressed some confusion at bikes with increasing numbers of gears (21 speeds was seen by some as a ludicrous amount).
Your suggestion that it might be more logical for the mech to settle in a lower gear backs this up.
My only experience of using something like this has been with an Alfine hub operated by a rapidfire shifter. In this case the shifting happens in the opposite direction to my conventional derailleur bike. This caused brief confusion for me when swapping between bikes with the same type of shifter but opposite shifting directions.
I’ve now fitted the derailleur bike with Sunrace friction shifters and the confusion has subsided.
This is amazing. I almost had to draw a diagram to follow along. And I go back to downtube friction shifting. Crazy to think how pulling on the left or right meant opposite things but that’s just how it was.
i bought a 7 speed megarange one and its awesome with my rly cheap friction shifter
theres alot of 9 speed ones on ebay which il definetly get in the future
I use one of these with grip shifters on my touring bike and it works fine. I hated it at first, but once I got used to it, I don't mind it so much. They work fine for party pace and touring bikes. Besides deviating from the norm, I think they may have failed because the bike racing culture didn't like them and we all know they drive most of the technological parts of the industry.
I had maybe that same model of rapid rise derailleur back in the early 2000s on my Trek 4900 - bought it while upgrading from 7spd to I believe 8spd (I think I also dropped from triple to double chain rings). I didn't know I was getting RR at the time or what it was, I think it was probably on sale. It was a mixed experience, but overall I grew to love it and wish it was the norm for all bikes, but it kind of needs to be all or nothing.
It definitely messed with my mind for awhile, fighting years of muscle memory of which way to shift with trigger shifters, especially as a mountain biker on technical steep trails where shifts had to be perfectly timed and missing a shift means you're hiking for a bit. But with some time RR became natural and I found it to be superior in a lot of ways. Like you mentioned, aside from having to unlearn the traditional way, it was so much more sensible to have the left and right triggers work in the same way. It also was a huge improvement in downshifting performance when climbing - I didn't have to let off the power nearly as much as I did with traditional derailleurs, which definitely helped with those aforementioned steep technical Colorado climbs. Especially helpful since I didn't know what I was doing and tended to grind away on way too hard a gear, only mashing down to a lower one when I could barely turn the cranks over any more :/
It did worry me a bit that the derailleur wanted to throw itself into my spokes and destroy my wheel if given the chance, so setting that limit screw right was all the more important. I did have some issues as an amateur at home mechanic not fully understanding limit screws or having mastered derailleur setup. Thankfully I learned my lesson about limits quickly so all of the wheel and derailleur entanglements happened on the work stand and not the trail, so it survived to live a long and healthy life.
Eventually tho, it wasn't the only bike I owned, and I found myself having to swap between rapid rise and high normal shifting depending on which bike I was on. When I was first making the transition to RR, I would always remind myself "it's the opposite of what you think" before shifting, and that worked to fight my old instincts. But that led to a real mess when I had RR and normal - I can remember distinct moments climbing up some horrendous chunk with my heart beating out of my chest and having an internal mental battle about which trigger to hit to shift to drop into that critical lower gear, desperate to get it right, but my oxygen deprived mind not being able to remember which bike I'm on and whether it's "opposite" or normal and which way "opposite" even is. Every single shift I had to consciously think about which bike I was on and which trigger did what, and half the time get it wrong, it was a special form of torture. That also carried over to making adjustments to the derailleurs, which I was already mediocre at, so flipping back and forth between the two made it impossible for me to remember which way to turn the barrel adjuster.
It's a real shame that RR wasn't what became the standard, because from my experience it did work better overall.
Loved the rapid rise derailleur! Made upshifts so easy. Wish they had continued its development
looks like that rapid rise derailleur really compliments the positioning of the manual shifter. bet that makes pulling up with the thumb easier
Russ, was just wondering what the chain tension is like on this derailleur? In short, does it eliminate the need for a clutch? Seems like the standard is always allowing the chain to fall toward the stay. Does it need a clutch in reality? You are spot on about the counter-intuitive nature. One of the most difficult things to explain to new riders is the shifting pattern logic. I do think the upside down would be easier to coach.
I have a Deore LX RD-M580 derailleur and it hits the chainstay in rough terrain if it is in the 2 smallest cogs. So far, in the 12 years I've had it, that's the only problem I've found.
My mind is blown, love it, wish I had it. I use friction shifters and this would be great. Probably failed because I thiink it would be more difficult to remove the wheel quickly. But I think the concept is great.
man. that's why shimano's brifter never made sense to me. Thank you for saying this!
If you're going to look at wacky RDs for fun, you could look for a shimano positron. It's 5 speed only (iirc, might be some examples that differ) and has no compatibility with any levers beyond those made specifically for it. The reason for that is because it uses a solid wire to push-pull instead of stranded and a spring, and the indexing is in the derailleur instead of the lever.
I have a bike outfitted with it that I use for groceries. It feels "clunky" to use vs my other bikes, but in a "push button cassette player" way, not an "unbalanced lawnmower blade" way.
Suntour did that idea first. Suntour had the front and rear shifters shifting in a similar style. Those old friction shifters were on the down tube or friction shifters were on the stem. On that system, a big gear lifting spring was on the front derailleur. With both levers all the way forward is was the highest gear and both levers all the way back was low gear.
I've got 2 RR mechs one running with an adapted LH friction like yours and it's great on my commuter/winter road bike, the other is on an MTB run with a dual control lever (as Shimano originally intended) and again it works very well, smooths down shifts and because the shifter works more like my brain is wired for top normal already it is pretty familiar in terms of operation...
I like mine in conjunction with deore 6spd friction thumbies (above bar) on an albatross bar, frees up hand space when in the 'tonk it' gear...I enjoy the shifter symmetry. :)
I remember a bike in my childhood having an RD like that. Shifting to easier gears was pretty unreliable if I remember correctly, I think it was the bail out gear that gave it the most difficulty.
It's been a decade or two by now though...
could have been poorly adjusted, bail out gear is the one that's the first to show a bad adjustment
Thanks for this vid, I totally learned something new! I'll be looking out for it from Riv.
We have one on our tandem, coupled to a Sram grip shift. It's great 🙂
I’ve got a Rapid Rise Deore LX “9-speed” on my 2009 Rivendell Sam Hillbourne. Only one complaint. With the Rivendell Silver Shifters that use friction in one direction and the micro-ratchet in the other, the spring of the Rapid Rise seems to pull against the friction direction of the shifter, and that allows it to slip occasionally, no matter how hard the friction screw is tightened. If the RD were top-normal, the spring would (I think) pull against the micro ratchet direction of the shifter. That, I think, would give a bit more resistance to slipping. Otherwise, it works great. My wife’s bike has an otherwise nearly identical, top-normal Deore 9-speed with very similar cassette and Silver Shifters. It works great and does not seem to encounter the same slipping issue.
That makes sense if I'm understanding you correctly. Is the ratchet designed to resist more in one direction than the other? If the spring is pulling in the other direction I can see how that might slip.
I can’t wait to get one of Riv’s when they come out!
Hey Russ i love friction shifter. Could you consider making a video from the caveof bad ideas. Make video using friction shifter with bullhorn handlebars 😊
I've had a Dahon folding bike with a derraileur that had this same "feature". Except for the inverted action on the shifter, i've never noticed any practical difference.
I think if it works for you, you should use it.
I have a rapid rise Deore RD on a 2007 comfort bike. It was my first bike with mtb STI shifters and it was just so intuitive to think, “big paddle = bigger gear.” I’m bit shredding with it, just commuting and bopping around town. It works perfectly.
I’ve never heard of this but one of my biggest frustrations during winter riding is getting my derailleur frozen and only having the ability to pull the cable with the spring being unable to put tension against the slack making it impossible to shift into the harder gears. I have a few hills but most of my 13 mile ride to work is flat, it is extremely frustrating to not be able to put it into the harder gears and being forced to spin just to maintain 2/3rds the rate of speed that I normally travel at. So yeah, this would be helpful for me but for the opposite reason to yours. My current solution is to switch the bike to a single speed for the winter and back for the spring.
Got an XTR rapid rise mech kicking about. Worked fine, but a bit confusing when jumping from bike to bike.
Great video. Interesting info about a curious thing. Thanks, Russ!
I have a Shimano LX 9 speed paired with friction shifters, and it makes total sense.
My 2005 Cannondale T800 touring bike has exactly the XT RR you have. At first I hated it, because it was ”wrong”, and you have to reprogram you brain every time switching between the T800 and the road bike, since they both have Ultegra integrated shifters on the drop bars. But when I put bar-end shifters on the T800 i made much more sense. I love it. And no problem when switching between bikes. Unfortunately I going to build a new touring bike now and retire the T800 after many many kilometers. And the new bike will unfortunately have to have a normal Shimano Alivio with Microshift bar-end shifters. So once again I will have to reprogram my brain.
I’d enjoy learning about any oddball internal hub gears.
The shifters they were paired with new were funky, that could be the reason they didn't take off.
The more options, the better! Me, I'm holding out hoping Jan Heine puts out a reproduction of the "no normal" Nivex derailleur with desmodromic cable control. We all have our dreams...