_"Even though I have more, I don't want to lose an asset."_ THANK YOU. I get tired of seeing playthroughs where people just casually fling their assets into a meat grinder just because they can easily be replaced. It's one thing to lose units in the heat of battle; it's another to just lead them to a slaughter.
Yeah, but...and not for the first time it's fair to say...this game didn't showcase the air assets very well. The F4s should have been engaging with Sparrow earlier, and not allowing the Migs to get into knife fighting range. Advantages thrown away. I know it's harder to talk and game, but c'mon man...
@@AnthonyRichesEmpire they need to have better ai where you task your forces for a mission and they complete that mission. It’s not like someone sits like a god telling every force when to shoot irl.
It's kind of weird. Microprose as a publisher basically died after the 1990's, and here they are dropping pretty good middle segment games one after the other since roughly 2022.
They basically did die. Then a guy from Australia bought the rights and rebuilt it. Now they're growing very quickly and getting a lot of new titles added to their roster.
The compamy never went bankrupt, and did retain some of their IPs, but it went out of game publishing for a good two decades. It got resurrected recently, and the people behimd it seem to be keeping to the same ethos of complex simulators and strategy titles OG microprose was known for, and they started by sponsoring a whole bunch odlf promising indy titles in that field, and have dwlivered on quality so far. I am honestly glad Slytherin has competition, they are monehungry bastards.
I love this kind of game. That transition, at 11:55, from Phantoms cruising at 37,000ft at nearly Mach 1, to a diesel-electric sub, creeping along the sea floor at 2 knots.
One clarification: Please note that as of today proper German torpedoes models DM1, DM2 and SST-4 were added to the build. So the TP 61 family ones were removed from Bundesmarine vessels as were made for Kobbens' loadouts.
Z tego co się orientuję to jesteś jednym z deweloperów, wygląda na to że odwaliliście kawał dobrej roboty:D Już od paru śledzę development Sea Power, I 12 od razu kupuje. Pozdro!
15:14: "...F-4's going to stall out in a minute." Ye of little faith. That's a pair of engines strapped to a -brick- plane. It has no problem climbing. 21:02: The AIM-7 was designed to target strategic bombers. Its no surprise its having difficulty with a helo.
For it’s time, the AIM-7 sparrows (not counting the early missiles that could’t hit a flying barnhouse) were quite decent missiles, the issue is that by the 80’s there were better solutions. Also the germans weren’t known for great missile maintenance.
Regarding grouping subs together: its not done in the western world for a good reason. Youd have to make sure you a seperated in order not to collide. For every sound contact youd have to find out if its foe or friendly sub. And once torpedoes are in the water its impossible to keep the weapons seperated from friendly subs weapons and the other subs. Plus, if a wire breaks, your friends will quickly become a target for your rogue torpedo. So keep them at a save distance ;)
I have to say, it's pretty interesting watching the underdog navy try to undermine a larger force, especially after you got ruined by those Norwegian ships in a past scenario (to my surprise).
At that time the german navy was not so much a underdog, if you are focused on the baltic sea. There they had 18 Subs 206, 30 FAC (missile), 10 FAC (torp.), a bunch of Mine warefare boats and approx. 100 fighter jets (especially for the Navy). The other stuff they had was designated to the northern sea and north atlantic. Not very much compared with US Navy and red fleet, but espacially designed for the shallow waters of the baltic sea. Together with the danish navy they had the task to prevent the escape of russian ships out of the baltic and eliminate any landing fleet. They had a fair chance to succeed, i guess.
Thank you for your very interesting videos! 👍 I live nearby Schleswig AB and in 1991 the German Navy operated F104 Starfighter from there. They carried the ASM Kormoran (approx. 16 sm range) with exactly that task you are simulating here.
@@Stealth17Gaming As far as I know, the F-104 would be fairly safe from SAMs just because of its speed and use in the Navy. From what ive heard and read the F-104 was intended to be used as a Interceptor or Bomber. It would use its speed (Mach 2) to quickly fly to the target, attack it, and leave before it got attacked by SAMs. They were also meant to intercept soviet Bombers over the Baltic sea, however that was redudant due to the use of ICBMs.
@@Stealth17Gaming The SAMs were Seaskimmer and also the aircraft tried to fly very low. The soviet ships had to use their radar on board, because they had no AWACS (ignore helicopters, which probably had no air to air radar at that time). To locate a target at sealevel, they could only look as far as the horizon is. Adopted the radar antenna of a ship is positionend 30m above sea level, they could see targets at sea level 12sm away (calculated with formula from de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizont). Of course the jets flew not at level zero, but only some meters higher (nothing for nervous people). So they could be identified a little bit farther away than the 12sm. And what about the clutter from the waves and reaction time of the ship crew? I guess, such an attack was not an easy going, but they had a chance fo fire and escape.
Very cool Scenario, living in the city of Kiel, where the naval base of these Tiger boats and some 206 used to be in that era, so this hits very close to home and feels extra nice! The Island you mentioned to be a possible danger for the boads to beech themselves is the island of Fehmarn, around 20 km away from the place where I was born, spent my youth and went to school. Thank you very much for this personal gem! Greetings from Germany :)
One minor critique of the game (and I don't have many just from what I've seen) is that flight formations seem a *bit* too choreographed. Everyone turning/changing altitude with exactly the precision of the Blue Angels. A slight (doesn't need much) delay for each individual plane would make it a bit more believable.
Thank you. Whether you noted my earlier comment or not it's nice to see the Bundesmarine in action. Obviously no German P. Tornadoes in the encyclobedia?
Being a diesel-electric comes with a hefty those of advantages, too - such as being small enough to operate in this puddle while submerged to begin with. There are areas in this region where a nuclear sub trying to submerge would simply hit the bottom. They are also extremely quiet. As in "can sneak into a US carrier group without being noticed during exercises" quiet. A type 206 A also snuck right past a Los Angeles class submarine at relatively short distance during an exercise, too.
And so did an LA class Subs against another LA class sub and "sank" a carrier. Irregardless of the fact that all the supposed Diesel electric carrier kills are complete BS anyway.
@@gotanon9659 Yeah, yeah. Just like physics is commie propaganda, right? Come back when you don't use words like "irregardless" and understand things can actually be measured.
Nope. Swedes have done it, and the US bought a Gotland exactly because of it. USN was shitscared that it was so easy to penetrate their ASW net, they bought a suarine from fucking selweden to figure out how they did it.
What will make or break this game is the ability to mod it. If the devs keep it closed, this game will come and go, similar to others. If they want it to be a long lasting title they'd allow mods. If they want immediate results, and don't care... well we all know how that goes.
They allow mods alright. The devs showed me how to do it. I have already created a collection of scenarios, ready to download - steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3348620206
@@egoalter1276 some of the Sea Power devs were former Cold Water DotMod devs. They probably know too well how finicky it was with that game. It was already stated that asset modding is planned, but wont make it for the initial EA launch
A neutral Unit will be never classified as hostile if more details missing! We have changed them to suspect! Because hostile means: Defend or Attack them! SO if IFF is missing and no Radio response then it will be suspect and in ROE after second inspection to Hostile ;)
Das Wolfsrudel zurück auf der Jagt ^^ - German Wolfpack back on the hunt. Been in one of the 205 Series UBoats in Technikmuseum Speyer in Germany and have to say...this thing is cramped like hell. Even more so than the older VIIc subs. Can only imagine it with running diesel engines, sticky sweaty thick air and 21 souls packed in every nook and cranny. Can recommend anyone interested to check it out for themselves. Cheers for the Video!
The major advantage of a Diesel electric is that they are way way way stealthier than a nuclear sub, imagine them as the perfect sub hunter while nuclear submarines are more of an strategic long term asset in a theatre Edit: people think because the US ditched diesels its the absolute best decissiin, when in fact, they ditched them because in their massive doctrine of overseas fleets the logistics for fuel and range would be a nightmare, plenty modern DE with recirculation systems dont need to surface for days and weeks and once in theatre are WAY stealthier than any nuke sub, also they can be smaller and lighter as they do not need a shit ton of space just to add the propulsion system and proper insulstion. Smaller makes detection harder, silent makes aproach and attack easier, nuclear subs win the endurance game to be an active deterrent on enemy waters cause of their "unlimited" presence, but D/E are way better hunters and that has been proven many times in modern times, ask american carrier groups
They have advantages but AFAIK they are not a "perfect sub hunter". This is exactly why the US Navy stopped developing conventional subs soon after the first Soviet November class nuclear subs appeared. When wargaming fights between a conventional (SSK) vs a nuclear (SSN) hunter-killer sub, they found that the SSN's sheer power output negated the SSK's lower emissions. The SSN would simply use its active sonar to locate and attack the SSK, then use its superior speed to evade retaliation. Obviously SSKs have seen improvements since the 60s, but so have SSNs. I'm just an armchair admiral (if that), but as far as I understand, they are more useful against surface ships than other (nuclear) submarines.
@@eypandabear7483 you won't go active in a submarine, it's used as a last resort option. The ssk can fire a wire guided torpedo above or below the layer to the enemy to mask its launch transient and guide it from there to the ssn. The ssn would need to detect it early to leave its no escape zone
@@cideltacommand7169 “you won’t go active on a submarine ..” I wasn’t speaking in hypotheticals. I stated the results of the US Navy’s wargames pitting SSKs against USS Nautilus. These results led to the US abandoning their previous plans to use SSKs in an ASW role. You’re right that SSKs and ASW torpedoes have improved a lot since then, but so have SSNs. They are *a lot* quieter now than they used to be in the 50s and 60s. Due to the high power output of the reactor they can also support larger sensors, both active and passive. So you can’t just assume the SSK will be the first to detect the SSN.
This is really wrong. Diesel electric submarines usually have louder hulls and louder engines, have much less range, and can usually be easily detected by nuclear submarines.
Running diesels are loud but that’s why they have electric and that is near silent. Problem with SSK is the moment you are detected you are doomed as you don’t have the crazy speeds SSNs have. This era SSK are still a decent threat despite having only 8 torps. This type could also carry 24 naval mines. A very good platform for mine laying or inserting SF.
If you are able to land and rearm you could've won this scenario just with the P3s firing massed salvos of 12 harpoons per wave, very early, right after the Migs were taken down.
Btw, all NATO aircraft generally have the upper hand in BVR fights (beyond visual range) that means, in a head on you can spalsh 4 migs easily with 4 phantoms as for the moment they get in range of your FOX 1's they are still probably 2/3 of the way to be able to shot their FOX 2 missiles compared with your range, so once you are sure or want to take the risk of shooting "Blind" you should allways shoot firs with NATO aircraft as thats your bigger advantage (unless you use the F-15, in wich case is better in every range and way than any russian fighter or interceptor)
I see people have already corrected you about the placement of the Jagel/Schleswig Air Base. But by coincidence you put the airbase very close to an actual RDAF airbase, Flyvestation Vandel build by Germany in 1943 and used after the war by RDAF till 2003 when it was closed.
The 613 torpedo is a very good weapon for the time, hard to detect because of its propulsion with alcohol and hydrogen peroxyde that leaves minimal track, and a decent guiding system
Those U-Boats are responsible for making US Navy personnel break out in a sweat during naval exercises, because the German U-Boats not only managed to sink a couple of carriers during mock attacks, but also sneaked right under a submarine hunter without being detected.
Ik this is a commonly reproduced myth but that’s not rly what happened. What did happen (and frequently happens to this day) are so called sinkex trainings in which NATO submarines train on carrier task forces, tasked with „sinking“ a carrier. And yes, both nuclear and conventional submarines frequently score hits or even sink the entire task force. HOWEVER, what is often left out in these stories is that these exercises are not carried out under combat conditions. This is especially the case for conventional submarines cuz by their very nature they’re slower and feature (due to their smaller size) „weaker“ sensor suites. To even out these disadvantages (so submarine actually get proper training in all steps) the task force in question „amputated“ with an amount of rules it has to follow during the exercise. On the day that U23 „sunk“ the USS Enterprise in 2001 (during ex JTFEX 01-2) for example, the carrier task force was subject to following rules (reading directly from the action report): - the task force could not exceed a speed cap of 10 knots during cruise and 15 knots for the escorts during the action phase - the task force was only allowed to move and operate within a 12x12nm area - ship based sonar suites were limited to passive operations for hull and towed arrays - helo operations were limited to 2 helicopters per carrier 1 helicopter per missile cruiser, non per escort (1x CV, 2x CG, 1x DD, 4x FFG present, so 4x helicopters in total) - U23 was provided detailed information about the task forces consist, speed, heading and location in pre exercise briefing And the germans weren’t the only ones either. The British, French, Danish, Norwegian, Spanish, Swedish, Italian and Canadian Navies all managed to achieve this objective and not be detected. The comedic zenith of these exercises is when the Royal Australian Navy managed to sink the USS Ronald Reagan and its 4 escorts with a 1960s era Oberon Class submarine in 1992. These exercises are not meant to train for a wartime scenario. They’re meant to exercise the steps in sinking a contact under semi realistic conditions. In a wartime scenario, neither a nuclear nor a diesel electric submarine will even be able to get near a carrier task force before being intercepted by asw elements. And especially not in a diesel electric submarine. You can be all the quiet and stealthy you want, you will be detected by an asw patrol, either by passive arrays or sonar buoys. You can’t catch up from behind either cuz the cruising speed of these task forces is around 25 knots, while most conventional submarines can barrel down at 18-20kn max (and make a sh.tton of noise in the process). It simply won’t work and it doesn’t has to, cuz the majority of conventional submarines are coastal defence submarines. Simply a different kind of operation.
@@dopepopeurban6129 THIS, SO MUCH! Can't even begin to tell you how sick I am of these myths. Remember hearing about this for the first time in the early 90s (Norwegian myself), and countless, countless times since It's like how Billy Mitchell "proved" that aircraft could sink battleships, if given a shit load of time freely dropping a shit ton of ordnance on a stationary target that did not maneuver, didn't shoot back and with no damage control - nerf something enough and anything will be able to kill it
@@dopepopeurban6129 While I get that NATO naval exercises like SINKEX aren’t carried out under full combat conditions, I think it's a bit of an oversimplification to just brush off the threat of conventional submarines (especially diesel-electric ones) to carrier strike groups. There are a few reasons why these subs are still a serious challenge, even in real-world scenarios: Subs like the German Type 212A are incredibly quiet thanks to air-independent propulsion (AIP). This allows them to stay submerged for longer without surfacing, making them harder to detect by anti-submarine warfare (ASW) systems. In fact, under certain conditions, AIP subs can be even stealthier than nuclear ones, especially in noisy coastal areas. Despite all the advancements, anti-submarine forces aren't foolproof. Subs have repeatedly shown they can slip through undetected, even without exercise limitations. In real-world combat, they could exploit gaps in ASW coverage, especially in complex environments like coastal waters. Carrier groups often operate near coastlines, where diesel-electric subs are at their best. These subs thrive in shallow, noisy waters where sonar detection is less effective, so they could absolutely pose a significant threat in those situations. History has shown that even conventional submarines can be a serious danger in combat. Look at the Falklands War-Argentina’s ARA San Luis, a diesel-electric sub, operated undetected near British ships and repeatedly tried to engage them. Even though no hits were made, it shows how tough ASW can be in real conditions. The fact that carrier strike groups dedicate so many resources to ASW proves they take the threat of conventional subs seriously. Even if the subs don’t always succeed, they’re still a real danger, and a huge effort goes into defending against them. So yeah, while these exercises don’t fully mimic wartime conditions, it’s not fair to say that conventional submarines would be helpless in a real conflict. With modern tech, good tactics, and the right conditions, diesel-electric subs are a credible threat to any navy.
17:20 damn, shooting down missiles with ASW weapons is impressive as hell, and an even bigger flex. XD (yes, I know he meant to say torps, let me have my fun here)
@@Stealth17Gaming i don't quite know how to explain this without pictures but I will try, you can "cold launch" with mk 48 or set 65(in this demonstration) by select the torpedo and clicking on the map where you want the torpedo to go(dogleging) this is shown on the map by a line with a box on the end you move the torpedo by moving the box where you want it to go. Hope this helps and is not outdated information! Edit: be sure you click in front of the target on the map instead of clicking on the target.
23:30 Well, scenario-wise, the Soviet command probably assumes that their operation is known, and there is no real reason to go to EMCON. NATO already knows where they are and I wouldn't risk getting Exocet or AGM-84 into my ship because I wanted to play sneaky
Really hope someone makes a mod for the danish armed forces, would make that scenario more realistic and fun with f-35 drakens flying above and danish ships closing the straights with mines😅
Hey there, awesome scenario 😊 Any ideas if Rommel, Mölders and Lütchens (destroyers) are in the game too? My dad served on them and I’d love to take them for a drive 😅
Those were stand ins. I added proper DM1, DM2s to Bundesmarine vessels today. Streamers have access to slightly less often updated stable builds contrary to dev builds.
@@MekStark It would be cool to see at least some Norwegian assets, Especially the Oslo class. It had a nice ASW Weapon. Sadly, its sonar isn't much to talk about, but when it works with a ship with good sonar... I am not entirely sure, but the Terne 3 on Oslo class might be able to shoot incoming torpedoes in a limited fashion. I say Norway since they have/had a vital role in patrolling NATO's northern flank. They would find and hand over information to the USA and UK on Russian submarines in the Norwegian Sea and Barent Sea with high precision. And the Norwegian's was damn good at it, when they said a submarine was in that "box", it is there
@@heuhen well, Oslo, Sleipner, Hauk and Snögg are ingame already. Terne is modelled and working on Oslo and Sleipner. I would like to add Storm and Tjeld classes but those won't make it to Early Access.
Great video and great looking game. Question: Do these platforms have entry and retirement dates in the platform database? Or is it up to the player to look it up themselves in other sources to make sure they don't put in a platform that's already retired in there scenario if their trying to be historic?
@@Stealth17Gaming Thanks! I guess you can google them and find them fairly easily. I can also get them from my Command:Modern Combat game database in that game if needed. I know they have them there.
Steath, that air to air engagement was rather poor. Definitely need to spend some time in moden naval strategy top gun school scenario mission. Air threats were at beyond visual range and you had AIM-7s to thin out the numbers before it turned into a furball knife fight.
the missiles fired at that poor helo cost more than the whole helicopter.. i wonder if the military ever disciplines pilots for wasting ammo like that. easy target, unable to fight a jet, way outside of AA range, pilot should default to close range combat.
So im confused i have noticed quite a lot of subs in this game carry very few Torpedoes like only the ones in the tubes and no reloads....im probably completely wrong about this and they have more and its only telling you how many are loaded but sum subs im pretty sure carry more
Cool szenario but if you do the West germans or if its after 1989/190 the F4´s should have no sparrows, germany never used them. Only sidewinders for the f4´s in 1990´s the ICE with amrams came and f18 radar on a f4. Alos no Tornados and no marineflieger tornados (naval version) with komorans, thers is komoran 1 and 2. Can be used against ships and static land targets. But i guess there is no german assets in the game.
Fun fact about DE boats is that they're actually quieter than their nuclear counterparts when it comes to noise generation during normal operations (on average)
They use the onboard helicopters, a lot. The airbase AI is still being worked on, same for carrier AI. That's why I can't really show carrier vs carrier yet.
Maybe it is a matter of assets: you can add smaller navies with just 3 or 4 assets. If you would try the same with the UK… well, many people would also be very disappointed
I recall seeing some developer statement about not having time to do the RN justice, and not wanting to just add a couple random ships like the other minor powers. They plan to focus on them as one of their first priorities post-launch, and drop a big RN-centric update on us at some point down the line.
There was new patch to drastically decrease end turn times. As well as efforts to decrease the time AI speeds designing new blueprints. I am yet to see just how much it alters the experience.
Dude, i really would like to see the range of avalible nations on that game, i thought it was just Iran, USA and Soviet Union, but i saw more nations, Israel, Germany, Vietnam, i think there's more but i can't remember. Could you do a custom scenario in South America, the war on Falklands, i mean if it's possible, so i can see how big is the game, again if it's possible
@@Stealth17Gaming The 206 can move with 17 knots, if submerged. But only over a short distance. Surfaced it can run 10 knots. I don't think that it can exceed 10 knots while snorkeling.
Behaviour of Ka-27 seems odd in the face of F-4's i.e no chance. surely it would retreat and head to sea level? AI behaviour is critical to this game being worthwhile having. Graphics and functioning seem fantastic but if the AI is stupid it becomes a bit lamo.
@@Stealth17Gaming I see thanks. Wasn't sure if there was some reason for it. All the friendly are 1###. Thought maybe it'd be different for the type of track, 7 for air, 8 for surface, etc but it's not the case. Or at least in the dozen or so videos I've seen from you, Wolfpack, and Jingles. Shame this game is only singleplayer or I'd love to see all 3 of you playing one match.
@@ChaosphereIX one of the developers are in the comments, he has said they have already added DM1 and DM2, In fact just a few hours ago. Those that play the early access haven't got the update yet
The migs at that time do not have forward quarter air-to-air missiles how in the hell did you lose 3 F4s at a head-on shot that is total BS and something for the programmers to fix
Game about NATO and cold war Days with Russian but seem 95% of it is about US and Russian .There No UK in game no Ships/planes/or Subs that a DLC added later
_"Even though I have more, I don't want to lose an asset."_
THANK YOU. I get tired of seeing playthroughs where people just casually fling their assets into a meat grinder just because they can easily be replaced. It's one thing to lose units in the heat of battle; it's another to just lead them to a slaughter.
Agreed, Stealth always tries to make things realistic like that.
Yeah, but...and not for the first time it's fair to say...this game didn't showcase the air assets very well. The F4s should have been engaging with Sparrow earlier, and not allowing the Migs to get into knife fighting range. Advantages thrown away. I know it's harder to talk and game, but c'mon man...
Agreed. The game needs campaigns to give battle’s consequences. It’ll be fun either way, but still
@@AnthonyRichesEmpire they need to have better ai where you task your forces for a mission and they complete that mission. It’s not like someone sits like a god telling every force when to shoot irl.
It's kind of weird. Microprose as a publisher basically died after the 1990's, and here they are dropping pretty good middle segment games one after the other since roughly 2022.
They basically did die. Then a guy from Australia bought the rights and rebuilt it. Now they're growing very quickly and getting a lot of new titles added to their roster.
Rather like Atari, 'Microprose' is basically just a brand.
Master of Orion and Master of Orion 2 were a couple of the best games ever made.
Microprose are just a publisher. They have had no hand in the development of this game.
The compamy never went bankrupt, and did retain some of their IPs, but it went out of game publishing for a good two decades.
It got resurrected recently, and the people behimd it seem to be keeping to the same ethos of complex simulators and strategy titles OG microprose was known for, and they started by sponsoring a whole bunch odlf promising indy titles in that field, and have dwlivered on quality so far.
I am honestly glad Slytherin has competition, they are monehungry bastards.
I love this kind of game. That transition, at 11:55, from Phantoms cruising at 37,000ft at nearly Mach 1, to a diesel-electric sub, creeping along the sea floor at 2 knots.
One clarification: Please note that as of today proper German torpedoes models DM1, DM2 and SST-4 were added to the build. So the TP 61 family ones were removed from Bundesmarine vessels as were made for Kobbens' loadouts.
Z tego co się orientuję to jesteś jednym z deweloperów, wygląda na to że odwaliliście kawał dobrej roboty:D Już od paru śledzę development Sea Power, I 12 od razu kupuje. Pozdro!
@@jakervamduf1523 tak, jestem współzałożycielem Triassic i ogólnie pojętym "artystą od wszystkiego" . Wielkie dzięki!
I never got into German diesel subs of the cold war besides ww2 U boats any books or documentarys any of you recommend?
Hey, this mission takes place basically right next to where I live! See that island below the submarines? That's Rügen :)
15:14: "...F-4's going to stall out in a minute."
Ye of little faith. That's a pair of engines strapped to a -brick- plane. It has no problem climbing.
21:02: The AIM-7 was designed to target strategic bombers. Its no surprise its having difficulty with a helo.
The AIM-7 wasn't even a great missile at intercepting bombers let's be frank-
For it’s time, the AIM-7 sparrows (not counting the early missiles that could’t hit a flying barnhouse) were quite decent missiles, the issue is that by the 80’s there were better solutions. Also the germans weren’t known for great missile maintenance.
@@hanscooks3027 just that those were American planes, doubly so since Germany never even had AIM-7 in inventory
Regarding grouping subs together: its not done in the western world for a good reason. Youd have to make sure you a seperated in order not to collide. For every sound contact youd have to find out if its foe or friendly sub. And once torpedoes are in the water its impossible to keep the weapons seperated from friendly subs weapons and the other subs. Plus, if a wire breaks, your friends will quickly become a target for your rogue torpedo.
So keep them at a save distance ;)
"Why do the F-4s have active sonar?"
It was either that or a machine gun, and why would you ever want a machine gun on a fighter?
I have to say, it's pretty interesting watching the underdog navy try to undermine a larger force, especially after you got ruined by those Norwegian ships in a past scenario (to my surprise).
At that time the german navy was not so much a underdog, if you are focused on the baltic sea. There they had 18 Subs 206, 30 FAC (missile), 10 FAC (torp.), a bunch of Mine warefare boats and approx. 100 fighter jets (especially for the Navy). The other stuff they had was designated to the northern sea and north atlantic. Not very much compared with US Navy and red fleet, but espacially designed for the shallow waters of the baltic sea. Together with the danish navy they had the task to prevent the escape of russian ships out of the baltic and eliminate any landing fleet. They had a fair chance to succeed, i guess.
Thank you for your very interesting videos! 👍
I live nearby Schleswig AB and in 1991 the German Navy operated F104 Starfighter from there. They carried the ASM Kormoran (approx. 16 sm range) with exactly that task you are simulating here.
That sounds like quite low range. Wouldn't that put them at risk of SAMs from their targets?
I'm fairly sure the F-104's were out of service with the Marineflieger by 1991.
@@Mecha_Gear You're right. I meant 1971, when this scenario is playing. Sorry. In 1991 there was the Tornado.
@@Stealth17Gaming As far as I know, the F-104 would be fairly safe from SAMs just because of its speed and use in the Navy. From what ive heard and read the F-104 was intended to be used as a Interceptor or Bomber. It would use its speed (Mach 2) to quickly fly to the target, attack it, and leave before it got attacked by SAMs. They were also meant to intercept soviet Bombers over the Baltic sea, however that was redudant due to the use of ICBMs.
@@Stealth17Gaming The SAMs were Seaskimmer and also the aircraft tried to fly very low. The soviet ships had to use their radar on board, because they had no AWACS (ignore helicopters, which probably had no air to air radar at that time). To locate a target at sealevel, they could only look as far as the horizon is. Adopted the radar antenna of a ship is positionend 30m above sea level, they could see targets at sea level 12sm away (calculated with formula from de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizont). Of course the jets flew not at level zero, but only some meters higher (nothing for nervous people). So they could be identified a little bit farther away than the 12sm. And what about the clutter from the waves and reaction time of the ship crew? I guess, such an attack was not an easy going, but they had a chance fo fire and escape.
I'm really unsure what to think about the air to air combat, it looks really really janky. Hopefully it will get better as development continues.
It definitely seems better suited for BVR rn but the devs had said they're still working on Dogfighting so it isn't so janky.
Tbf, it is primarily a naval game, i guess they need more time on that
Yes the game is in early development so we can reasonably expect better air combat soon :)
Its better than janes fleet command so its a win for me
@@lucasart328oh my, the janes jank. 😂
Very cool Scenario, living in the city of Kiel, where the naval base of these Tiger boats and some 206 used to be in that era, so this hits very close to home and feels extra nice! The Island you mentioned to be a possible danger for the boads to beech themselves is the island of Fehmarn, around 20 km away from the place where I was born, spent my youth and went to school. Thank you very much for this personal gem! Greetings from Germany :)
One minor critique of the game (and I don't have many just from what I've seen) is that flight formations seem a *bit* too choreographed. Everyone turning/changing altitude with exactly the precision of the Blue Angels. A slight (doesn't need much) delay for each individual plane would make it a bit more believable.
Thank you. Whether you noted my earlier comment or not it's nice to see the Bundesmarine in action. Obviously no German P. Tornadoes in the encyclobedia?
No not yet I think
Being a diesel-electric comes with a hefty those of advantages, too - such as being small enough to operate in this puddle while submerged to begin with. There are areas in this region where a nuclear sub trying to submerge would simply hit the bottom.
They are also extremely quiet. As in "can sneak into a US carrier group without being noticed during exercises" quiet. A type 206 A also snuck right past a Los Angeles class submarine at relatively short distance during an exercise, too.
And so did an LA class Subs against another LA class sub and "sank" a carrier.
Irregardless of the fact that all the supposed Diesel electric carrier kills are complete BS anyway.
@@gotanon9659 Yeah, yeah. Just like physics is commie propaganda, right? Come back when you don't use words like "irregardless" and understand things can actually be measured.
Nope. Swedes have done it, and the US bought a Gotland exactly because of it. USN was shitscared that it was so easy to penetrate their ASW net, they bought a suarine from fucking selweden to figure out how they did it.
Thanks for all the Sea Power Videos, cant't wait to finally play it myself
3:06 As a person who lives in Denmark, i suppose that is one of NATO's airbases in the country (it could be a misplacement tho)
Good old times when we played HARPOON ...and good to see something similar coming back 😀😀😀
What will make or break this game is the ability to mod it. If the devs keep it closed, this game will come and go, similar to others. If they want it to be a long lasting title they'd allow mods. If they want immediate results, and don't care... well we all know how that goes.
They allow mods alright. The devs showed me how to do it. I have already created a collection of scenarios, ready to download - steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3348620206
Mods are gonna be in-game as well the ability to modify the assets.
@@subjectc7505hope asset modding is easy. Absolutely hoping to play some Strangereal battles.
Having to fucl aroumd with DLL injection in cold waters is a pain. Devs should never precompile their data archives honestly.
@@egoalter1276 some of the Sea Power devs were former Cold Water DotMod devs. They probably know too well how finicky it was with that game.
It was already stated that asset modding is planned, but wont make it for the initial EA launch
A neutral Unit will be never classified as hostile if more details missing! We have changed them to suspect! Because hostile means: Defend or Attack them! SO if IFF is missing and no Radio response then it will be suspect and in ROE after second inspection to Hostile ;)
Das Wolfsrudel zurück auf der Jagt ^^ - German Wolfpack back on the hunt.
Been in one of the 205 Series UBoats in Technikmuseum Speyer in Germany and have to say...this thing is cramped like hell. Even more so than the older VIIc subs. Can only imagine it with running diesel engines, sticky sweaty thick air and 21 souls packed in every nook and cranny.
Can recommend anyone interested to check it out for themselves.
Cheers for the Video!
Well guns on a plane are technically a type of Close In Weapon System, so they're not wrong.
If it ant broke don't fix it... - Every German Designer EVER about using the Mg34/42 (became Mg3) and late war U-Boat designs after WW2
The major advantage of a Diesel electric is that they are way way way stealthier than a nuclear sub, imagine them as the perfect sub hunter while nuclear submarines are more of an strategic long term asset in a theatre
Edit: people think because the US ditched diesels its the absolute best decissiin, when in fact, they ditched them because in their massive doctrine of overseas fleets the logistics for fuel and range would be a nightmare, plenty modern DE with recirculation systems dont need to surface for days and weeks and once in theatre are WAY stealthier than any nuke sub, also they can be smaller and lighter as they do not need a shit ton of space just to add the propulsion system and proper insulstion.
Smaller makes detection harder, silent makes aproach and attack easier, nuclear subs win the endurance game to be an active deterrent on enemy waters cause of their "unlimited" presence, but D/E are way better hunters and that has been proven many times in modern times, ask american carrier groups
They have advantages but AFAIK they are not a "perfect sub hunter". This is exactly why the US Navy stopped developing conventional subs soon after the first Soviet November class nuclear subs appeared. When wargaming fights between a conventional (SSK) vs a nuclear (SSN) hunter-killer sub, they found that the SSN's sheer power output negated the SSK's lower emissions. The SSN would simply use its active sonar to locate and attack the SSK, then use its superior speed to evade retaliation.
Obviously SSKs have seen improvements since the 60s, but so have SSNs. I'm just an armchair admiral (if that), but as far as I understand, they are more useful against surface ships than other (nuclear) submarines.
@@eypandabear7483 you won't go active in a submarine, it's used as a last resort option.
The ssk can fire a wire guided torpedo above or below the layer to the enemy to mask its launch transient and guide it from there to the ssn.
The ssn would need to detect it early to leave its no escape zone
@@cideltacommand7169 “you won’t go active on a submarine ..” I wasn’t speaking in hypotheticals. I stated the results of the US Navy’s wargames pitting SSKs against USS Nautilus. These results led to the US abandoning their previous plans to use SSKs in an ASW role.
You’re right that SSKs and ASW torpedoes have improved a lot since then, but so have SSNs. They are *a lot* quieter now than they used to be in the 50s and 60s. Due to the high power output of the reactor they can also support larger sensors, both active and passive. So you can’t just assume the SSK will be the first to detect the SSN.
This is really wrong. Diesel electric submarines usually have louder hulls and louder engines, have much less range, and can usually be easily detected by nuclear submarines.
Running diesels are loud but that’s why they have electric and that is near silent. Problem with SSK is the moment you are detected you are doomed as you don’t have the crazy speeds SSNs have.
This era SSK are still a decent threat despite having only 8 torps. This type could also carry 24 naval mines. A very good platform for mine laying or inserting SF.
If you are able to land and rearm you could've won this scenario just with the P3s firing massed salvos of 12 harpoons per wave, very early, right after the Migs were taken down.
AWESOME! Thankyou man! Waited for this!
Ooh, this is a very interesting scenario. Can't wait to see how it plays out!
Love the video featuring the little Type 206. Fantastic showcase.
Im completely addicted to these videos. Keep going
Btw, all NATO aircraft generally have the upper hand in BVR fights (beyond visual range) that means, in a head on you can spalsh 4 migs easily with 4 phantoms as for the moment they get in range of your FOX 1's they are still probably 2/3 of the way to be able to shot their FOX 2 missiles compared with your range, so once you are sure or want to take the risk of shooting "Blind" you should allways shoot firs with NATO aircraft as thats your bigger advantage (unless you use the F-15, in wich case is better in every range and way than any russian fighter or interceptor)
I see people have already corrected you about the placement of the Jagel/Schleswig Air Base. But by coincidence you put the airbase very close to an actual RDAF airbase, Flyvestation Vandel build by Germany in 1943 and used after the war by RDAF till 2003 when it was closed.
if this game by any miracle gets a multyplayer feature its going to be the best thing ever
The 613 torpedo is a very good weapon for the time, hard to detect because of its propulsion with alcohol and hydrogen peroxyde that leaves minimal track, and a decent guiding system
Those U-Boats are responsible for making US Navy personnel break out in a sweat during naval exercises, because the German U-Boats not only managed to sink a couple of carriers during mock attacks, but also sneaked right under a submarine hunter without being detected.
Ik this is a commonly reproduced myth but that’s not rly what happened. What did happen (and frequently happens to this day) are so called sinkex trainings in which NATO submarines train on carrier task forces, tasked with „sinking“ a carrier. And yes, both nuclear and conventional submarines frequently score hits or even sink the entire task force. HOWEVER, what is often left out in these stories is that these exercises are not carried out under combat conditions. This is especially the case for conventional submarines cuz by their very nature they’re slower and feature (due to their smaller size) „weaker“ sensor suites. To even out these disadvantages (so submarine actually get proper training in all steps) the task force in question „amputated“ with an amount of rules it has to follow during the exercise.
On the day that U23 „sunk“ the USS Enterprise in 2001 (during ex JTFEX 01-2) for example, the carrier task force was subject to following rules (reading directly from the action report):
- the task force could not exceed a speed cap of 10 knots during cruise and 15 knots for the escorts during the action phase
- the task force was only allowed to move and operate within a 12x12nm area
- ship based sonar suites were limited to passive operations for hull and towed arrays
- helo operations were limited to 2 helicopters per carrier 1 helicopter per missile cruiser, non per escort (1x CV, 2x CG, 1x DD, 4x FFG present, so 4x helicopters in total)
- U23 was provided detailed information about the task forces consist, speed, heading and location in pre exercise briefing
And the germans weren’t the only ones either. The British, French, Danish, Norwegian, Spanish, Swedish, Italian and Canadian Navies all managed to achieve this objective and not be detected. The comedic zenith of these exercises is when the Royal Australian Navy managed to sink the USS Ronald Reagan and its 4 escorts with a 1960s era Oberon Class submarine in 1992.
These exercises are not meant to train for a wartime scenario. They’re meant to exercise the steps in sinking a contact under semi realistic conditions. In a wartime scenario, neither a nuclear nor a diesel electric submarine will even be able to get near a carrier task force before being intercepted by asw elements. And especially not in a diesel electric submarine. You can be all the quiet and stealthy you want, you will be detected by an asw patrol, either by passive arrays or sonar buoys. You can’t catch up from behind either cuz the cruising speed of these task forces is around 25 knots, while most conventional submarines can barrel down at 18-20kn max (and make a sh.tton of noise in the process). It simply won’t work and it doesn’t has to, cuz the majority of conventional submarines are coastal defence submarines. Simply a different kind of operation.
@@dopepopeurban6129 THIS, SO MUCH! Can't even begin to tell you how sick I am of these myths. Remember hearing about this for the first time in the early 90s (Norwegian myself), and countless, countless times since
It's like how Billy Mitchell "proved" that aircraft could sink battleships, if given a shit load of time freely dropping a shit ton of ordnance on a stationary target that did not maneuver, didn't shoot back and with no damage control - nerf something enough and anything will be able to kill it
@@dopepopeurban6129
While I get that NATO naval exercises like SINKEX aren’t carried out under full combat conditions, I think it's a bit of an oversimplification to just brush off the threat of conventional submarines (especially diesel-electric ones) to carrier strike groups. There are a few reasons why these subs are still a serious challenge, even in real-world scenarios:
Subs like the German Type 212A are incredibly quiet thanks to air-independent propulsion (AIP). This allows them to stay submerged for longer without surfacing, making them harder to detect by anti-submarine warfare (ASW) systems. In fact, under certain conditions, AIP subs can be even stealthier than nuclear ones, especially in noisy coastal areas.
Despite all the advancements, anti-submarine forces aren't foolproof. Subs have repeatedly shown they can slip through undetected, even without exercise limitations. In real-world combat, they could exploit gaps in ASW coverage, especially in complex environments like coastal waters.
Carrier groups often operate near coastlines, where diesel-electric subs are at their best. These subs thrive in shallow, noisy waters where sonar detection is less effective, so they could absolutely pose a significant threat in those situations.
History has shown that even conventional submarines can be a serious danger in combat. Look at the Falklands War-Argentina’s ARA San Luis, a diesel-electric sub, operated undetected near British ships and repeatedly tried to engage them. Even though no hits were made, it shows how tough ASW can be in real conditions.
The fact that carrier strike groups dedicate so many resources to ASW proves they take the threat of conventional subs seriously. Even if the subs don’t always succeed, they’re still a real danger, and a huge effort goes into defending against them.
So yeah, while these exercises don’t fully mimic wartime conditions, it’s not fair to say that conventional submarines would be helpless in a real conflict. With modern tech, good tactics, and the right conditions, diesel-electric subs are a credible threat to any navy.
25:01 Yo, WTF is that wheelie like a biker 😆
17:20 damn, shooting down missiles with ASW weapons is impressive as hell, and an even bigger flex. XD
(yes, I know he meant to say torps, let me have my fun here)
Can you take manual control of the torpedo, because it is wire guided, and just neutralize the target by yourself?
I haven't figured out how yet. It says (some) torpedoes are wire-guided and thus can be adjusted, but I don't know how to yet.
@@Stealth17Gaming i don't quite know how to explain this without pictures but I will try, you can "cold launch" with mk 48 or set 65(in this demonstration) by select the torpedo and clicking on the map where you want the torpedo to go(dogleging) this is shown on the map by a line with a box on the end you move the torpedo by moving the box where you want it to go. Hope this helps and is not outdated information! Edit: be sure you click in front of the target on the map instead of clicking on the target.
23:30 Well, scenario-wise, the Soviet command probably assumes that their operation is known, and there is no real reason to go to EMCON. NATO already knows where they are and I wouldn't risk getting Exocet or AGM-84 into my ship because I wanted to play sneaky
I really hope this game has mod support.I already love what I am seeing but just think of the possibilities!
25:00 now wtf was that launch😂 I'm not sure P-3 Orion have STOVL variant that somehow better than catapult launch & JATO
6:49 no, they should carry a Version of the DM2 Torpedo, probably the DM2A3
i think thats ment to be skydskrup airbase here in denmark but not sure on the location
Can you do in your next videos maybe an amphibious landing operation??
Really hope someone makes a mod for the danish armed forces, would make that scenario more realistic and fun with f-35 drakens flying above and danish ships closing the straights with mines😅
you put the airbase well up into southern Jylland in Denmark.. Schleswig is about 130km further south and actually in Germany xD
Lol sorry my bad. Wish they'd populate the map with more town names
Hey there, awesome scenario 😊 Any ideas if Rommel, Mölders and Lütchens (destroyers) are in the game too? My dad served on them and I’d love to take them for a drive 😅
Lutjens got added after I made the scenario. Others I don't think are in (yet)
I notice you can snorkel diesel submarines. Is fuel usage implemented in the game?
The AIM-7s need a fixed radar lock on their targets or they go dumb. I'd assume they modeled that in this game.
Weird, the TP613 is a swedish torp, the subs should be carrying DM2A1 or A3s or so...
Those were stand ins. I added proper DM1, DM2s to Bundesmarine vessels today. Streamers have access to slightly less often updated stable builds contrary to dev builds.
@@MekStark cool, that's great to hear! Thank you!
@@MekStark It would be cool to see at least some Norwegian assets, Especially the Oslo class. It had a nice ASW Weapon. Sadly, its sonar isn't much to talk about, but when it works with a ship with good sonar...
I am not entirely sure, but the Terne 3 on Oslo class might be able to shoot incoming torpedoes in a limited fashion.
I say Norway since they have/had a vital role in patrolling NATO's northern flank. They would find and hand over information to the USA and UK on Russian submarines in the Norwegian Sea and Barent Sea with high precision. And the Norwegian's was damn good at it, when they said a submarine was in that "box", it is there
@@heuhen well, Oslo, Sleipner, Hauk and Snögg are ingame already. Terne is modelled and working on Oslo and Sleipner. I would like to add Storm and Tjeld classes but those won't make it to Early Access.
Dönitz at it again!
Great video and great looking game. Question: Do these platforms have entry and retirement dates in the platform database? Or is it up to the player to look it up themselves in other sources to make sure they don't put in a platform that's already retired in there scenario if their trying to be historic?
I don't think they do. You have to check it yourself.
@@Stealth17Gaming Thanks! I guess you can google them and find them fairly easily. I can also get them from my Command:Modern Combat game database in that game if needed. I know they have them there.
Steath, that air to air engagement was rather poor.
Definitely need to spend some time in moden naval strategy top gun school scenario mission.
Air threats were at beyond visual range and you had AIM-7s to thin out the numbers before it turned into a furball knife fight.
Yes I'm still learning that part.
The rbu has no chance of taking out a torpedo the torpedo is too fast for the rbu!!! Dang civies!!!
Not a pilot, but CIWS could mean Close-In Weapons System.. aka guns. Thanks for the video!
F4s using millions in missiles for one helo! I'm not feeling that bro!
Herr Kaleu fertig zum Tauchen 🎉
Thanks! Good video
Sitting on the edge of my seat, with baited breath and chewing finger nails. Maybe not :D
XD it would be Jagel Airbase not Schleswig.
Its like 7km south of Schleswig.
source: i live there
Yes, it is Jagel AB. I live nearby, too. But you often can here that people call it Schleswig AB.
Sorry. Wikipedia told me Schleswig so I went with that
@@Stealth17Gaming no Problem i just found it funny
the missiles fired at that poor helo cost more than the whole helicopter.. i wonder if the military ever disciplines pilots for wasting ammo like that. easy target, unable to fight a jet, way outside of AA range, pilot should default to close range combat.
Hey Stealth! why do you cut the videos into two parts?
My videos have an average view duration of 10:28 min. If I release a video of 50 minutes it's just a waste of effort.
So im confused i have noticed quite a lot of subs in this game carry very few Torpedoes like only the ones in the tubes and no reloads....im probably completely wrong about this and they have more and its only telling you how many are loaded but sum subs im pretty sure carry more
these coastal boats indeed carry no reloads.
Woah, deja vu...
Cool szenario but if you do the West germans or if its after 1989/190 the F4´s should have no sparrows, germany never used them. Only sidewinders for the f4´s in 1990´s the ICE with amrams came and f18 radar on a f4. Alos no Tornados and no marineflieger tornados (naval version) with komorans, thers is komoran 1 and 2. Can be used against ships and static land targets. But i guess there is no german assets in the game.
24:53 that Orion taking off looks awfully sus. 🤣
Fun fact about DE boats is that they're actually quieter than their nuclear counterparts when it comes to noise generation during normal operations (on average)
Cool scenario StealthBro
How independent is the AI? Do they use onboard helicopters themself or is that setup in the editor? Same with airbases?
They use the onboard helicopters, a lot. The airbase AI is still being worked on, same for carrier AI. That's why I can't really show carrier vs carrier yet.
@@Stealth17Gaming Nice to hear, thanks!
**Das Boot Theme Intensifies!**
It's cool you get the German navy, but it blows my mind they're included but the Royal Navy isn't!
Maybe it is a matter of assets: you can add smaller navies with just 3 or 4 assets. If you would try the same with the UK… well, many people would also be very disappointed
I recall seeing some developer statement about not having time to do the RN justice, and not wanting to just add a couple random ships like the other minor powers. They plan to focus on them as one of their first priorities post-launch, and drop a big RN-centric update on us at some point down the line.
@@IlyushinIL2that's correct. RN is too big topic to just skim over with bunch of ships and two subs.
U-Boats are sailing once more...
Would ask someone else, but everyone seems to have switched to this. But is there anything new or fixed in UAD?
Don't know. Haven't played it in a month. You can read their dev blog on steam if you want to get updated
There was new patch to drastically decrease end turn times. As well as efforts to decrease the time AI speeds designing new blueprints.
I am yet to see just how much it alters the experience.
Dude, i really would like to see the range of avalible nations on that game, i thought it was just Iran, USA and Soviet Union, but i saw more nations, Israel, Germany, Vietnam, i think there's more but i can't remember.
Could you do a custom scenario in South America, the war on Falklands, i mean if it's possible, so i can see how big is the game, again if it's possible
Falklands isn't feasible yet without the Royal Navy.
Modern day Wolfpack.
Soooooooooooo, considering all the fany ASW stuff the soviets have, how about an ASW mission as the soviets trying to weed out US SSN?
he has already done it with the Moskva class helicopter carrier
why would you snorkle with batteries at 95%
Because it seems you can move a bit faster
@@Stealth17Gaming The 206 can move with 17 knots, if submerged. But only over a short distance.
Surfaced it can run 10 knots. I don't think that it can exceed 10 knots while snorkeling.
would make sense to top up before combat, as battery life is critical for speed and maneuvering obviously. Low battery DE subs are sitting ducks.
Behaviour of Ka-27 seems odd in the face of F-4's i.e no chance. surely it would retreat and head to sea level? AI behaviour is critical to this game being worthwhile having. Graphics and functioning seem fantastic but if the AI is stupid it becomes a bit lamo.
November 12th is the day us great unwashed can play the game!
Is there a reason why all the tracks start with 7?
Not sure
@@Stealth17Gaming I see thanks. Wasn't sure if there was some reason for it. All the friendly are 1###.
Thought maybe it'd be different for the type of track, 7 for air, 8 for surface, etc but it's not the case.
Or at least in the dozen or so videos I've seen from you, Wolfpack, and Jingles.
Shame this game is only singleplayer or I'd love to see all 3 of you playing one match.
You keep underestimating the range of your planes. This isn't WW2, lol.
North of where you are is Sweden, which is neutral and should not be flown over
Why are diesel subs more quiet?
No coolant system for the reactor
TP613 on German type 206 subs? Now that never happened!?
placeholder for early access until they put in the DM2s
@@ChaosphereIX one of the developers are in the comments, he has said they have already added DM1 and DM2, In fact just a few hours ago. Those that play the early access haven't got the update yet
The Sparrows are pretty ass, and they're very accurate in game.
Ahh AIM-7E, nice to see its bad in this game as well
Thunder Run?
Recorded and scheduled the Thunder run video for Sunday Nov 10th.
@Stealth17Gaming nice
The migs at that time do not have forward quarter air-to-air missiles how in the hell did you lose 3 F4s at a head-on shot that is total BS and something for the programmers to fix
I hope Sea power is easy to mod. It's crazy watching Russian equipment outperform compared to reality
Ikr because reality today = reality 40 years ago.
Game about NATO and cold war Days with Russian but seem 95% of it is about US and Russian .There No UK in game no Ships/planes/or Subs that a DLC added later