Thanks so much for watching! If you want to check out my reaction to a “nuclear launch key” from Lockpicking Lawyer, please check out: ruclips.net/video/YTWEHT__G_A/видео.htmlsi=c1N7mc8ib0A0qRXe
As the person from a tech crew, who sometimes uses those things, i can find reasons for making this lock in that way. More pins means more combinations for the key - more people can have unique keys. Strange thing is putting security pins in there. This is not a security lock. This is just a warning to not to turn some machines on. So i completly get it being made from easily destructible materials just in case a person who put a lock on, cannot be contacted because their shift is finished. For me it is normal even if you use a screwdriver to "secure" a power switch. Any other tech seeing such thing knows to check the whole machine area for other techs working on such thing. This is more for dumb operators switching on things, just because they are switched off. All of the tech crew will take a stroll, shout and check if they see even a paperclip pushed through that switch hole to make an extra effort to switch on the machine. And that's all it is ment to do - extra effort for someone else to consider, there might be another person in danger if you just flip that switch.
yes in fact most security relies on peoples assumptions , for instance you would think every square inch of the pentagon is under surveillance and in fact its not but that belief alone keeps most people away , and yeah some would see a 4 lb lump of steel and think that would have to have a decent core so yeah unless you knew what you were looking at it will fool most
Thanks for explaining LOTO to people. Master Lock are really the joke locks for LPL and other locksmiths. Many of their products look intimidating, and the security claims look grand, but as you infer, it's basically good marketing. For the sake of saving a few cents in manufacture, so many of their locks are fitted with inferior cores. But as it happens, most illegal entries are not made by picking the locks. Lockpicking and lock bypassing accounts for only around 7% of all illegal entry crimes. The main ones are either destructive entry or social engineering - such things as 'borrowing' a key, tailgating someone through a doorway, or a person being lazy or forgetting to use their locks.
@@RWBHere rather like the Norden bombsight. All of the souper seekrit secrecy crap on the sight was directly from Norden, not the Department of War, which didn't even bother classifying it - but got roped into Norden's scheme by contract. As for this LOTO, had one, picked it quickly enough, the security pins slightly slowing me down, the non-spring return not really slowing me down at all. Better than most Master locks, which honestly isn't saying much other than they're not Kwikset...
Masterlock has a bit of a reputation amongst his followers. My favorite joke I've seen there is "A master key opens any lock, a Masterlock is opened by any key."
@@seanspartan2023 "non-stupid accident" would be a novel situation without warning signs. IE all procedures were followed but it still went sideways. Edit: one thing I could think of is a blown bleeder resistor in a capacitor bank. It will pass visual inspection, then you touch anywhere in the system and your heart stops or short/burn out something.
The worst part of Master's lineup is that their flagship padlock, the Magnum 930 (the last one he showed), has a massive *known* security flaw. Master decided to put a rubber weather cover on the bottom of the lock. To hold it in place, they extended the core retention nut by a quarter of an inch. If you simply rip the rubber cover off, you can grab a hold of the retention nut with a pair of channel locking pliers and pry it out. The internals of the lock will all come out, and the lock will open. That flaw has been known for at least six or seven years.
A lot of the exploits that open 98% of the locks you'll ever encounter in the US have been around for decades to centuries. It's a pretty bad industry.
@@derpderpin1568 LockPickingLawyer actually gave a presentation at SaintCon (a digital security conference) about this! It's crazy how resistant the physical security industry has been to change, especially when compared to digital security...
The 6-pin LOTO lock is purposely not made to be indestructable, exactly for the reasons you mentioned. They're used to lockout people, but has to be malleable enough to be removed in an emergency situation.
That's exactly my thoughts too. They use more pins on the lock, so there are much more key combinations (unique ones) to use those locks. But the lock itself has to be relatively easy to take off in case of a problem to contact a person who put a lock on a device, but is not possible to contact them - they finnished their shift and they switched off the work phone. A bit of twisted logic, but still, it can be solid from a certain perspective 😁
As someone who got into locksport thanks to BosnianBill and LockPickingLawyer, Master is known to be the best beginner practice lock brand. Along with all of the faults LPL noted in this video, Master allows for locks with all pins being the same cut. I acquired one of these myself. You can literally pick it with a bobby pin and nothing else. I had to toss that lock because it was so frustratingly easy to pick that it was preventing me from learning new techniques with any skill because it’d just pop open as soon as I put the pick in and touch the pins. These days I have to go out of my way to look for challenging locks. The ones found in local stores just don’t cut it anymore.
LPL later mused that it may be so that a LOTO lock is easy to break with evidence of tampering, but hard to pick leaving no evidence of tampering. The other locks are easy to pick, but hard to break as evidence of tampering is no longer.
@@emmata98I think you may have hit the nail on the head actually. Harden them against non-destructive attacks so it’s obvious to the owner when one is opened by someone who isn’t the owner. That way you don’t lose the chain of custody by re-locking the system out with the same lock and without the owners knowledge. If the lock is removed in an emergency, and the lock owner isn’t present. Then when they return, they’ll know they have to re-certify the system is in a safe state for work to continue even if no one tells them.
That was what Tyler was getting at when he was going on about cutting it off in certain situations. I think LPL's main point was that on locks that are supposed to be secure against all forms of entry, both cutting and picking they use rubbish cores whereas on locks that don't need to be so secure (in general but mainly against cutting) they use much better cores.
Sort of. The specific regulation is that whoever puts it on retains exclusive access to the key and is the only person who can remove the lock. However, regulations do allow for removal if the operator cannot be reached. All reasonable methods to reach the operator must be exhausted as the ideal is that they personally remove it. If they cannot be reached or cannot come in, they MUST be notified in person (I think phone may also be allowed I'll have to brush up on that) before the start of their next shift that the lock has been removed. That's why regulation also specifies a name be on the tag.
I operate a large double span hydraulically powered concrete swing bridge. These locks aren't used too often, mostly for locking out circuits or generators. We usually remove keys and use yellow (caution, communicate before operating) or red (do not operate, remove key and take key with you) tags to denote work is being done on certain parts. It's really interesting to see what other industrial workplaces may use for LOTO situations.
When I was in Industrial Hygiene as a team leader we used these to Lock Out the machines for my operatives for cleaning, they were a pain in my proverbial, 30+ a night signing them in and out and checking their proper use. The keys used to jam up in the majority of these damn things and caused more problems than they fixed as in my operatives would "forget" to use them, which yes, lead to accidents.
Most locks are at risk of being cut or smashed off as thieves don't care about destroying it, they just want the goods. For LOTO it might make sense that the pick resistance is what is important as it's used to monitor access and anything destructive would be obvious tampering. For theft the physical strength matters while for LOTO the ability to detect tampering matters, opposite uses so opposite investment in materials and design?
I'm going to say no to the picking idea - if someone wants to open the lock then they've made it specifically much easier to open with brute force.....a strong person might be able to snap it with their bare hands. The purpose of the lock is to stop accidental opening and the extra spool multiplies up the safety factor of the lock by it being practically impossible to be opened by any old key you jiggle in it - a worker needing access might have a huge selection of keys in their pocket and insert the wrong one - in the 80s the entire Ford range, in Europe, could be opened by six keys.....nothing particularly wrong with the keys/locks but I did end up sitting in someone elses car by complete accident......a car is just another form of dangerous heavy machinery that only specified people are allowed to operate (and a red Ford is commonplace in a big car park - good job they had furry dice and poor taste in cassettes).
I'm glad you mentioned the reason the standard LoTo lock is non hardened, they are there so someone doesn't accidently harm someone while they are working, or accidently activate a faulty system. However, if they lose a key, or there is an emergency, they need to be able to be cut open quickly. I've never had it where it was a need to open one immediately but We did lose the keys to one, then per policy of the company I was at, we had to fill out a bunch of paperwork to describe why we cut the lock. Just for record keeping that hey, we lost the key, we removed the lock. Also, yeah, most locks are there to keep honest people honest. They act as a deterrent, The reality is that if someone is going to break into something, Think about the standard toolbox latch over eye lock setup, doesn't matter if you put the best lock in the world on it, Someone that wants to get in is going to look at that and go "I can cut the latch tongue with tin snips" and that's the end of it. The lock is there to keep out people that would get in through "oh look it's not locked" or "I'm sure he won't mind if I borrow X". of course that's a typical example of where you might see a heavy duty lock body, I've seen a lot of guys in the shops put beefy looking locks on the boxes, while we all know that the design of their toolbox will stop someone that actually wants to get in for about 10 seconds, Or they'll just take the whole box.
Unless a worker forgot to take it off and you call him to make sure what ever equipment or circuit he was working on is in safe and in working order, there is not many circumstances where you should remove someone’s loto.
That's why at the paper mill I work at sometimes during shutdowns, every single confined space someone wants to use has an attendant/vessel guard (my position). You lock onto the main permit box while you're in the mill, as well as the confined space permit in front of me, your name goes down, the time in/out goes down. If you leave my line of sight, your lock goes with you (barring that one time the guy's key fell through the floor and he had to go get it - these companies really need to look into carabineers. People have lost so many keys in the confined space, falling through the floor, etc). They're also gas tested every 3-4 hours, whenever it's left unattended (even for one minute). Makes you think though - nearly every safety policy that's been put in place in general, was written in blood somewhere. Whether it happened once or more.
Imagine someone is doing maintenance on the backup cooling system of a nuclear power plant. The backup is powered down and locked out. Then the primary cooling system fails. You are minutes from a meltdown. You cannot reach the person doing maintenance on the backup cooler. Something like this is a reason you may cut the LOTO lock, turn the system back on (possibly killing the maintenance worker) to prevent a disaster that could cost many lives and severe ecological and financial damage. (I am sure this is an improbable/impossible example as many more things would need to fail, but it illustrates the point, sometimes you might have to bring a system up even when it isn't safe to do so.)
@@kg4wwn You'd hope that the nuclear industry actually has its shit together enough not to need such locks - anything so critical should be traceable down to 'Plan E', with multiple fallbacks, like going for a spacewalk where you rehearse every move for six months and how to recover from just about any setback. But there are millions of places where you don't want the power/heat/mechanical device to come back online in any workplace eg in print finishing the guillotine blade should be impossible to reach by the operator/spectator due to the safety lockouts unless the power is off - famously Tony Iommi (Black Sabbath) lost a good chunk of finger due to lack of safety cutout. Explains a lot!
@@pd4165 I am absolutely sure they have at least a 'Plan E' that doesn't involve a LOTO cutting. Turning on a system to save a meltdown at the expense of a technicians life is probably somewhere around plan U or V. But if they actually have their shit together, they have a plan that includes it, and rules for how and when to do so.
Funny thing is, you kind of giggled when he mentioned picking open locks while watching a movie, but I totally relate to that. I have issues focusing due to restless energy, and while my go-to isn't currently lockpicking (I got into trouble for that from a friend cause the clicking was distracting), I've moved to solving a very quiet rubik's cube while I movie watch with friends, to keep my mind free
I have a well lubed combination padlock for this. You can feel the wheels lining up, but not hear them. If your friend can hear the clicking I'll give you your money back. Honest.
These locks really aren't designed to be a security device. They're just a way to stop someone from walking up and energizing whatever is being worked on.
"These locks really aren't designed to be a security device. They're just a way to stop someone from walking up and energizing whatever is being worked on... So let's put there the most secure core we have" (C) someone on Master Lock Company meeting 😆
Exactly: they went with the security pins so someone couldn't pick it and say it was never on, but made it easy to break in case it needed to be removed by someone other than the person who put it on (but would be obvious that it had been removed)
what he may not realize it many times when doing a lock out tag out it can require multiple locks, where you have many departments that have to be notified and approve of placing the equipment or device back in service, these locks are also placed inside distribution panels with limited space making the small body locks more desirable. and of course they are used mostly to ensure that no one tries to operate equipment that's been taking out of service for either maintenance or repairs, not to prevent theft, your not going to rely on one of these to chain your Harley to a lamp post. I remember once while in the navy before lock out became standard practice it was just tag out, I was doing maintenance on filters for ventilation system, turned off the power and hung a tag on it, removed the filters for cleaning, when I came back someone had tossed my tag on to the floor and turned the blower back on, guess it was getting just a bit too warm for somebody. its a good thing I wasn't repairing or working on the blower motor itself.
Someone mentioned this elsewhere, but I think the reason why the core is so good is because you may have lots of very similar locks in a single place, and you have to make doubly sure that the wrong key won't open the wrong lock, and that might not be guaranteed with a low-security core due to accidental raking, "bumping" or just turning the key too hard.
I used to be a maintenance diver at a certain theme park featuring marine animals. We dove with many of the animals, but never the killer whales. The trainers would move the animals into an adjacent pool and then close a gate, which was done remotely with pneumatics.The LOTO lock had to be placed directly on the gate, by walking across a narrow catwalk spanning the top (which only the trainers were allowed on). Therefore, they would place their key in a nearby box, and the divers would lockout that box. It was an interesting solution to the problem of a worker who needs LOTO protection, but isn't allowed to physically place a lock where it's required. I wonder how common this kind of scenario is. It was all taken very seriously, which was a good thing. If a key were lost and a lock had to be cut, there was a whole procedure that involved multiple department heads being physically present and signing off, as well as incident reports and all that. There was also an incident wherein an employee mistakenly exposed a colleague to a dangerous animal, by remotely unlocking a gate (which the animal could have then pushed open-but didn't). She immediately realized and corrected the mistake, but was nonetheless let go.
In the same way that I've seen Gordon Ramsay criticize chefs in high-end restaurants-at worst for endangering people and at best for overcharging-while praising small, family-run establishments for serving hygienic, enjoyable, and reasonably priced food, I feel the LockPickingLawyer is similarly reasonable in his expectations. His issue doesn’t seem to be with the low quality of certain products per se, but rather with the outrageous pricing and misleading advertising that could cause an unsuspecting customer to trust valuable items to poorly made locks. (Often, these products have well-known vulnerabilities that could be easily and cheaply fixed.) I've seen him commend affordable locks that are of decent quality, or if they’re still subpar, at least acknowledge when the price reflects that.
I'm pretty sure the LOTO core is built to a regulatory requirement; nothing else could induce MasterLock to make a core _good._ The body is vulnerable because, as you pointed out, it has to be able to be cut off easily if need be, preferably with something that's in literally any toolbox, by someone who does _not_ make a study of destructive attacks upon padlocks. I wonder if the LOTO is vulnerable to a padlock shimming attack; I would be genuinely surprised if not.
I usually never have anything to do with stuff where LOTO locks are used, but I once visited a friend that works in a small university particle accelerator. All the entrances to the actual ring had these LOTO locks, which I expected, but what totally surprised me was that there were LOTO keys on all places where ladders were stored as the radiation zone was technically a cone. Not really related to this video or the LPLs video, but that's an interesting memory this video triggered :)
That’s really interesting. If I’m understanding you right, that’s like a “reverse LO/TO.” I’m used to putting these things on equipment to lock it into a safe state before working on it. It sounds like the ones at your facility were to deny access to the dangerous area until the equipment had been put in a safe state.
The bizarre thing for me is the spool-pins and serrated pins. For those who aren't lock-geeks, those are specifically protections against picking, but who's going to stand there and pick the lock just electrocute your electrician... and if you're angry enough at him to do it... well.. a bolt-cutter gets you there faster. Of course, it's also worth noting picking a lock to steal your stuff is really more of a movie trope. Yes, in theory one could do it, in practice if you just want to steal, destroying the lock (or even shimming it, in most cases) is faster.
Had a work incident while working in a warehouse. A crew was working on a compactor but they hadn't placed their loc . I bumped my cart push the button waited for cyclo finish and began driving back to my station. When I got about 2/3 through the section this guy runs up screaming at me about how I nearly killed someone. I'm like how? He said the machine was down for maintenance and had a lock on it. No it didn't went back showed him. No lock no tag. The guy got apologetic, I grabbed my radio to report the incident he got so mad and tried to put the tag on before the plant manager got there. I had to laugh like you know there is a camera right there, right. He got fired on the spot when manager and security showed up.
He's not so much complaining tha the LOTO locks are easily breakable, just that Master Lock, with their pompous motto and several "unpickable" and "unbreakable" locks, CAN design a pretty great lock, but only chooses to use that one in the least secure lock body while their regular use locks are made in hulk levels of protection but vulnerable to picking. And yeah, sure, a lock needs to be openable in case the key is lost or broken, but for personal use, more often than not, it should take a locksmith, someone whose job and focus is in picking locks, not a guy with a hammer or someone who watched a tutorial on picking locks. And by LPL's many showcases of Master locks, well, a whole bunch of them can be opened by just knocking them lightly with a hammer, take under 10 seconds to pick if you know what you're doing and maybe a minute if you don't, and can easily be broken with brute force.
I remember a story from a long time ago at a power plant. A worker locked out a piece of equipment. Some numbskull cut the lock off and re-energized the circuit while the worker was in contact with it. His screams echoed through the plant. As it was described "His arms turned into the wires for a Jacob's ladder." The guy who did it got his ass kicked and the police called. When the police showed up, they said "he fell down the stairs." He was prosecuted and found guilty of aggravated assault, reckless endangerment, attempted homicide, etc. He was sentenced to about 10 years in prison. As for the worker, they had to amputate both arms.
Our LOTO tags (like shown at 1:47) had our photo and our cell phone# on them, that way you knew who to contact if they forgot to remove it OR who you were potentially killing if you cut the lock off and turned the locked-out control back on... We had to cut off LOTO locks surprisingly often from certain people who seemed to always leave their locks on and then left for the day... Hated doing it, since to do it correctly, you need to actually get in contact with the previous person, and many times they didn't answer their phone after work (which is fair enough), so we would then have to verify they were not on the premises and then re-check the system for safety (if they didn't do a handoff). And many people didnt use LOTO tags, so you're just looking at some random lock attached to the control arm for a disconnect.... On the flip side (and maybe because of this), we had quite a few incidents of LOTO locks being incorrectly removed (or people not using LOTO in the first place, mainly new temp-agency-supplied operators) and people getting seriously injured or killed.
I worked on a project at a synchrotron for a few months that had numerous LOTO zones that could potentially kill you. I was VERY disappointed about not getting any superpowers. Some of the devices looked like 20 ft high microwave parts and lead walls were all over the place.
The location of such a lock would be the lock body itself **** And the lock... think of it as a tamper resistant tag of sorts. The goal is to prevent un noticed tampering. But if needed can be broken in emergency and quickly!
The sites Loto plan will define the use of colors in the program. like the lock above with 2 key that would be a shift transition lock. ALSO YOU NEVER CUT A LOCK UNLESS YOU CAN CONTACT THE PERSON THAT PUT THE KEY ON TO CONFIRM THE CONDITIONS. Additionally the loto plan spells out what needs to be done to remove a lock when the key is not present.
My dad uses these locks ona mine site when he’s working under a massive dump truck, you don’t want someone starting it up and crushing you. They also put danger tags everywhere when they’re working on those things
Thanks for answering the LPL's question- if there is a requirement to be able to cut off a lotto lock as part of normal procedure, then it makes sense not to harden it. As for the other locks, if they look intimidating, people may believe that they are more secure and less likely to try picking it... allowing Master to cheap out on the cores.
I used to drive forklifts (in Australia), and our LOTO for those was literally just cardboard tags with rubber bands - each lift truck carried a stack of blank tags in a dedicated little tray on the back. Then again, that's a case where the life you're protecting mostly belongs to the person who needs to respect the tag. Can confirm, you couldn't pay me to operate a tagged forklift.
Doesn't matter how beefy it looks. If there is MASTER written on it's an invite to be quickly picked and often not even picking is necessary as they have well known security flaws. Basically a Master Lock is like a nuclear power plant with a heavily guarded front entry but the back door is open and all the important controls are right behind this door.
Their normal locks are so bad that you can accidentally rake them open with the key to another lock. These are designed to not allow that. You need the right key to open them. Or, if that person lost the key, they're very easy to break open so the equipment can be restarted after the maintenance is done.
There is a bit of "intimidation factor" at play on the other locks. The main issue is that real thefts and destructive crimes don't involve picking locks. Partially because it's a learned skill that takes time to master, but also these crimes are usually quick and the criminal is expected to have fled the scene in less than 10 minutes. Even a good lock picker can burn 5 minutes on an unfamiliar lock, compare that to braking a window and unlocking a door through the opening, or entering through an unlocked upper window via a ladder. There's less time exposed before entry that could arouse suspicion, compared to kneeling in front of an entryway for several minutes. It's a matter of least resistance, there's often easier ways to bypass security than through the lock.
We had experimental nuclear reactors, each access gate had a unique key. If any key would was removed a “firing alarm” sounded, indicating you needed to leave the area. Only when all keys were inserted in to the “firing panel” could we do our test shot. The keys weren’t to restrict access, more to ensure personnel were clear. We had something similar in the military at ammunition facilities, you left your ID in a box prior to entry. That way they knew who was inside the facility and when it was clear (so they could release the war dogs).
The LOTO locks we used looked a lot like the middle model @7:30. They could be broken open with a hammer, in case of an emergency. That being said, lockouts are usually done with the machine at a zero energy state. Removing someone else's LOTO lock without telling the owner or going through the approved administrative procedure is a great way to get instantly fired.
I work in a frozen food factory, one of my duties is to assign a storage location to pallets of frozen food after they've passed through a machine that applies shrink wrap. I have 2 LOTO to apply when I'm operating the machine during normal use. One for the access door and one for the compressed air supply. If the machine has a major bonk... I can also lock off the main breaker switch. That needs an electrician to fix... Typically I'll remove my lock when the electrician arrives and he'll apply his own.
I once was a key holder to an LOTO lock and I'll be honest I felt more responsibility with that key than I have with anything else. Could the lock be easily cut off? Yeah. Could I live through that shame? Probably not.
I would bet it’s a economical thing. Like to add the core to civilian applications would add significant cost that the nuclear plant isn’t going to be bothered by and they just want an overly secure lock that can be broken in an emergency.
Those LOTO locks are really just to make people think before they switch an isolated system back on. I have a set for electrical isolation. I would only expect the security to extend to someone opening the panel cover and thinking “Oh, it’s not tripped, it’s been isolated”.
When you said there were yellow locks, I just imagined Uncle Andrew saying, “Not a red one. I can’t let you unlock those just yet. But I’d be happy to let you remove one of the yellow ones.”
Yeah, everywhere I've worked in the nuclear industry, and even going back to my Navy career, 'violating a red tag' was a HUGE no-no. Could get you hauled up before the Captain, and your shipmates would certainly 'calibrate' your a$$. They are a matter of life or death to your co-worker/ shipmate. It's a matter of trust, not 'security'. Oh, and some places like the control room, we didn't even use 'locks', we just used tags and that was enough.
Oh Mah Gawd! I am so thankful you did this reaction. I've never seen the lockpick lawyer before. I have heard of him but avoid lockpicking videos and training media. I prefer trial and error, since I'm just a hobbyist with no intent to pick more than the free locks I get given to me. More importantly about this reaction is that Riggin Friggin Rockin Frockin Master LOTO Lock. My wounded pride and ego has just been slightly vindicated. I had no confirmation behind my belief that something was not standard about the core. I am a self taught, sophomore/senior-ish junior lock pick hobbyist. What I mean is that the locks I'm able to pick, I can pick really fast, but my overall lock theology is neglected. Well, as this all pertains to that Master LOTO lock, that SOB lock is one that really wore me down learning it. Now I see why. I chose it believing it was going to be an elementary lock with loose tolerances and would require near to no effort to pick. I was fooled by the cheap looking housing for sure. Most locks I had experienced previous to getting the 410 took one to twenty minutes to get my first breach. The 410 stumped me for a long time of repeated visits. The only other lock to do this to me is a cheap no name lock. Cheap as in it was from the dollar store, but surprisingly not cheap at all in materials and tolerances. It took the better part of a week to figure out the dumbbell pins that messed with my head. Anyways, thanks again for the content. This might be my most favorite of your vids now. Cheers!
While the two metal red locks are LOTO locks, you generally won't see these used in a plant by plant employees where the plant has a one lock, one key, one employee policy. Sometimes the aluminum ones are used when the lock is tethered to a lockout point, but these typically aren't carried by employees. The 4-pin core steel locks are more likely to be used by systems integrators that don't follow a one lock, one key, one employee policy (SI's don't care about key differs and locking out the machine is more of a formality). I do think the 6 pin core is used in the plastic lock because in one lock, one key, one employee systems (what this lock is intended for), you want a lot of key differs because there's a lot of locks out there, and because there's a lot of locks out there (that could potentially be cut off since there's only one key), it makes sense to make them as cheaply as possible and still perform the task at hand.
The question is less about 6 pins, and more about the security pins, eccentric keyway and the serrated pin on 5 - all of which feel superfluous on a lock with a body like this. There were surely cheaper ways to get the variety, such as the 9-pin locks from Godrej - so why make the core this good for a body this fragile?
Even Master Lock’s best core is nowhere near close to the best core ever. It’s a common hobby to get challenge locks for picking that a fellow locksmith has designed to be unpickable.
Yep. I work as a confined space attendant sometimes. I've actually seen these less and less in use at our pulp/paper mill. Most of them are all just standard padlocks, and each company tends to have their own lock, or at least lock color, which is interesting. However, I haven't seen a plastic lock for people locking into confined space. Maybe it's just because it's cheaper, or there's no standard at the mill. As long as everyone inside has a lock on, they're signed in, it's good to go.
Most of the people who have access to these locks also have the tools and know-how to bust the lock open in seconds (you can do this with approval if a lock owner loses their key or goes missing). I suppose the important design requirements for LOTO locks is that there are many unique keys that won't ever work on the wrong lock (could easily cause an accidental death), and that they can't have a big chunky form factor because they need to fit into the often cramped spaces where LOTO devices are used. Sometimes you can have a bunch of them right next to each other in a tiny cabinet. If someone wants to purposefully tamper with a LOTO lock without authorisation that's an instant termination offense and the lock being weak isn't really the problem there.
I think this lock is meant as a reusable seal. If you pick a LOTO lock, you don't leave any obvious evidence so they made it as hard as possible to pick it. Destruction in any way leaves clear evidence that the device it was securing was tampered with.
The ironic part is that Masterlock's "best" lock is for something that is effectively a zip-tie. They aren't meant to be "high security" (as you point out, there are reasons to remove them.) If you're in a working environment where people willingly remove other peoples tag-outs, well, a lock isn't going to stop that. (and you should RUN as fast as possible away from that shit.) (* Masterlock doesn't have a "best lock". They are all dog shit. They _will not_ protect your stuff from anyone who means to take it.)
It might be quite secure for a master lock lock, but that means nothing. If you want to see a very secure lock I recommend his video 1398. It's a lock for which he needs a special tool for and even then it takes him far longer than for most locks.
I remember watching this LPL video and purchasing two of these locks. 30 seconds with a dremel and I could see how a padlock worked. I'm now working on picking the locks inside them. My locks even have plastic shackles.
One interesting theory I've seen in LPL's comment section that in the US where someone could easily have a gun or some really powerful cutting tool, it's a bigger risk than meeting a skilled locksmith. Like, 99% risk meeting a person carrying a gun or special tool than 1% meeting a highly skilled person who can open it without breaking it. Though it doesn't explain why some locks are so bad they could be opened with a stone or shimmed with a couple strips of plastic carved out of a PET bottle.
You got my "you need to cut them". I guess the aim is to make the non-key removal destructive, so it is obvious that you've broken the lock rather than just unlocked.
Sometimes a lock is not security but a defense against clandestine interference. You can get in (nefariously or legitimately in emergency) but you cant do it without leaving evidence or accidently
He has a video on something relatively cool imo, it's a game for kids that lets them pick locks...I'm not making this up there is a game where each person gets a lock with exchangeable 'cores' ranging from easy to hard and it's a race to 'pick' the lock first. Of course he's not exactly the guy you wanna play against lol.
I have no issue with LOTO locks as they are an amazing safety feature to have on hand. I can also agree with the lock body being easier to break than a standard lock for the emergency reason of not being able to get the key and needing to power on whatever the lock is attached to. I do however think they could use a less secure core. It's a case of the lock stopping accidental use rather than someone who is set to using said thing. Even a 4 pin core will still offer thousands of different cuts available for keying options.
I think the idea is they are easy to remove, but hard to tamper with. In an emergency they can be easily broken. But they are difficult to bypass by means that don't leave a mark.
I’m not an expert by any means so take this with a grain of salt (but I read a lot). What you talked about at the end, it has a name relating to the security industry writ large. It’s referred to as ‘security by obscurity.’ I.E. the thought that ‘if something looks big and scary, it’ll ward off most attackers, and that’s what we’re trying to do so it’s good enough.’ In my mind that’s stupid. In this example, they put all the time, money and resources into making a really nice lock against destructive attacks, but couldn’t be bothered to put a decent core in it, which would be very cheap to do, none of the components in a locks core are expensive or hard to make. And the core in that LOTO lock isn’t exactly one of the best cores ever, but it’s respectable, it’s gonna give a novice trouble, or even someone with a bit of experience, but someone who’s a gifted or experienced locksmith is gonna get into it, as where the cores in the other locks are quite trash
Locks are definitely more of a deterrent than a security solution. I mean a skilled lockpick can get through most locks as the lockpickinglawer has repeatedly done.
LOTO locks are a good indication that something is already wrong with the machine or system. At the very least someone will look around to make sure the technician isn't in the machinery. If the system is critical to the safety of the plant or the local population then there is already a huge problem. Odds are the warning signs is exactly what the tech is there to fix. Weirdest LOTO lock I've seen was on a dock door. Door would roll up but a key pin was worn out and sometimes the 400 pound door would slam down. That's when I learned that pin was considered a consumable part that would wear out over times. Some of the roll up doors at that facility were over 1000 pounds. At the very least a person would be having a bad day of the door randomly decided to not stay open and crush them.
A lot of the purpose of locks isn’t for preventing access but to deter access. If someone wants to get a lock open, and they know what they’re doing it will be opened. It’s the same for security guards their main purpose is to act as a deterrent.
I feel it has more to do with tamper evidence than whether or not you can break it off. If this lock were to be removed by someone who was not intended to use it, that could mean major injury or death. If it were easy to pick, it could be manipulated and put back into place without anyone knowing.
Yes, it seems critical that a lock not be removed and replaced without anyone knowing. That can lead to major problems. Some people do know how to do it, but solving that issue is not up to the manufacturer, it's the workplace's responsibility to foster a safety culture so this does not happen. ANY tampering of a LOTO lock is an offense you get fired for at my workplace.
think people are looking at the paradox the wrong way, the loto lock makes perfect sense for its use case, the real question is why such a core isn't used for the other premium locks where you protection from all forms of attack.
It comes down to money. You can charge huge amounts of money for the red lock for government regulated uses and all they care about is certain security aspects, while other locks are concerned for other security aspects. None of the requirements need to make logical sense.
The small plastic lock probably only has the 6th pin because it’s bought in larger bulk making it far harder to insure all keys are not duplicated simply by virtue of using every combination in a single order. The more robust locks are made in smaller quantities and bought on more individual basis than in bulk so master lock can safely cut corners where it is cost effective. It’s probably less cost effective to make every 5 pin lock different when you can duplicate most of those and need only one pin to be different to solve the issue vs paying someone to be more accurate with 5 pins.
Makes sense since theyre almost meant to be broken, the heavier locks would be more worried about someone breaking into them then someone picking them and then replacing the lock after
tbf, masterlock is a known bad lock brand/good lockpicking training brand but it works because people don't know better, and a lock just has to look tough for people to buy it.
Well the intimidation factor is quickly nullifies by them putting that big Master logo on there. Anyone who knows anything about locks then instantly know that it's a nead indestructible lock filles with creame cheese.
I wonder if the difficulty of the core is to avoid using something like a bump key or rake, something that could be fashioned out of another key, and then "used" almost normally. So if all the cores sucked one sleazy manager cutting corners could essentially have a skeleton key that unlocks them all, without anyone knowing anything was amiss. But still easily opened if need be by destructive means.
4:23... Slight correction to that statement you made. Each lock is only supposed to have one person who can unlock it BUT there can be multiple locks on the same device. I worked in a facility that processed medical waste and needles and stuff and every few weeks when we would need to clean the autoclave out (think a big pressure cooker that can hold 50,000 lbs of medical waste) where we would have one locking device that we could use to lock out the machine that could than itself be locked with up to 20 different locks where so long as even one is still on it can't be unlocked and then we would have 12 people all attach a lock and go inside the autoclave to work on cleaning it out. That way if even one single person was still in the autoclave no one could start it up because if someone was in there and it got closed to get ran no one would be able to hear you through how think the metal had to be to be able to withstand those levels of pressure needed to sterilize the medical waste to then be processed. As such it is not one single person controlling it, but each and every person who is working on it, we also had a smaller version for 4 locks because we had two maintenance people plus occasionally the manager would help with maintenance of the other devices we had to use to process the medical waste. So if three people were working a machine you would put three locks on so that Maintenance man 1 can't accidently turn it on while maintenance man 2 is still in there just because maintenance man one saw manager leave and assumed it was all clear.
At the site i work at the rule is the reds each person has a key that can be to multiple locks (all the locks are just for you but they may have multiple keys as each lock comes with a key) then there are the yellow which can have up to 5 locks to one key that are used for the machine isolation and then put in a box that is locked by a green lock that is 1-1 and then each of us lock onto that box with our red.
id imagine that plastic body is there because of product contamination. no manufacturing plant wants metals to be movable equipment. furthermore some plastics are more durable to acidic and caustic cleaners prolonging the life. also nobody in a plant is going to hit someones lock with a hammer. even if they were most of the disconnects/loto points are also plastic so if u were that determined to break it a metal body wouldn't help anyway.
Worst case for a facility: someone picks a lock for sabotage. If they destroy it, it's obvious. Worst case for a home/business: someone just strongman's the lock, not subtle, don't care if it is discovered. The facility wants to ensure that if the lock is opened, even by an expert, you know. The home/business wants to stop amateur burglars. Makes sense to me.
Why would you even need a strong core in the LOTO padlock? It's not like some employee will bring the lockpicks out because there is a padlock that protects his coworker from electrocution. Those padlocks are mostly to make sure no one is just not thinking about it and run it anyway. And if someone wants to open it so badly, in most work places the tools to destroy them are easier to get than tools to open it. And it doesn't need any skill to do it. And if you do not want anyone to know that it was opened, you probably will give it out by doing what you wanted to do.
The research says that having a lock of any kind on something prevents the overwhelming majority of potential break ins. How good the lock actually is or not doesn't gain you a whole lot of extra coverage beyond that and forcible entry is more common than a pick attack as well.
![[1591] The Replicant: Pocket Key Casting Perfected!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/L5Fus7qbRZM/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks so much for watching! If you want to check out my reaction to a “nuclear launch key” from Lockpicking Lawyer, please check out: ruclips.net/video/YTWEHT__G_A/видео.htmlsi=c1N7mc8ib0A0qRXe
You don't want to accidentally stuck your head in a partical beam...
Yep that happened.
ruclips.net/video/mD4J5VUwiAs/видео.htmlsi=9eMopFd8HLmPR9t0
As the person from a tech crew, who sometimes uses those things, i can find reasons for making this lock in that way. More pins means more combinations for the key - more people can have unique keys. Strange thing is putting security pins in there. This is not a security lock. This is just a warning to not to turn some machines on. So i completly get it being made from easily destructible materials just in case a person who put a lock on, cannot be contacted because their shift is finished. For me it is normal even if you use a screwdriver to "secure" a power switch. Any other tech seeing such thing knows to check the whole machine area for other techs working on such thing. This is more for dumb operators switching on things, just because they are switched off. All of the tech crew will take a stroll, shout and check if they see even a paperclip pushed through that switch hole to make an extra effort to switch on the machine. And that's all it is ment to do - extra effort for someone else to consider, there might be another person in danger if you just flip that switch.
yes in fact most security relies on peoples assumptions , for instance you would think every square inch of the pentagon is under surveillance and in fact its not but that belief alone keeps most people away , and yeah some would see a 4 lb lump of steel and think that would have to have a decent core so yeah unless you knew what you were looking at it will fool most
Thanks for explaining LOTO to people. Master Lock are really the joke locks for LPL and other locksmiths. Many of their products look intimidating, and the security claims look grand, but as you infer, it's basically good marketing. For the sake of saving a few cents in manufacture, so many of their locks are fitted with inferior cores.
But as it happens, most illegal entries are not made by picking the locks. Lockpicking and lock bypassing accounts for only around 7% of all illegal entry crimes. The main ones are either destructive entry or social engineering - such things as 'borrowing' a key, tailgating someone through a doorway, or a person being lazy or forgetting to use their locks.
@@RWBHere rather like the Norden bombsight. All of the souper seekrit secrecy crap on the sight was directly from Norden, not the Department of War, which didn't even bother classifying it - but got roped into Norden's scheme by contract.
As for this LOTO, had one, picked it quickly enough, the security pins slightly slowing me down, the non-spring return not really slowing me down at all. Better than most Master locks, which honestly isn't saying much other than they're not Kwikset...
Masterlock has a bit of a reputation amongst his followers. My favorite joke I've seen there is "A master key opens any lock, a Masterlock is opened by any key."
Remember you can open a masterlock with a different masterlock
@@shanewhite1977McNally moment
It's not just his followers, it's the picking community in general.... And it's a reputation well earned...
@@Freezerohmatic I honestly haven't heard it from anyone outside the lock picking niche.
I mean, I learned how to pick their combination locks in elementary school, 50 years later, I still can.
LOTO saves lives but it's only as good as the operation's safety culture and the operators tasked with using it.
LOTO only stops stupid accidents.
@@Eluderatnight As opposed to "non-stupid" accidents? 💀
Tell me about it, my operatives would "forget" to use them because they were a pain in the butt.
@@seanspartan2023 "non-stupid accident" would be a novel situation without warning signs. IE all procedures were followed but it still went sideways.
Edit: one thing I could think of is a blown bleeder resistor in a capacitor bank. It will pass visual inspection, then you touch anywhere in the system and your heart stops or short/burn out something.
if you forget to use them in my field of work you get fired, no questions asked. you're gone.@@davidkaye8712
The worst part of Master's lineup is that their flagship padlock, the Magnum 930 (the last one he showed), has a massive *known* security flaw.
Master decided to put a rubber weather cover on the bottom of the lock. To hold it in place, they extended the core retention nut by a quarter of an inch. If you simply rip the rubber cover off, you can grab a hold of the retention nut with a pair of channel locking pliers and pry it out. The internals of the lock will all come out, and the lock will open.
That flaw has been known for at least six or seven years.
A lot of the exploits that open 98% of the locks you'll ever encounter in the US have been around for decades to centuries. It's a pretty bad industry.
Definitely. I've been picking for years, and some of the stuff is inexcusable, like overlift attacks.
MasterLock Magnum 930: The strongest padlock MasterLock makes
McNally: ** P L I E R S **
Damn, and I thought it was bad that most padlocks from Master can be opened using most padlocks from Master.
@@derpderpin1568 LockPickingLawyer actually gave a presentation at SaintCon (a digital security conference) about this! It's crazy how resistant the physical security industry has been to change, especially when compared to digital security...
The 6-pin LOTO lock is purposely not made to be indestructable, exactly for the reasons you mentioned. They're used to lockout people, but has to be malleable enough to be removed in an emergency situation.
That's exactly my thoughts too. They use more pins on the lock, so there are much more key combinations (unique ones) to use those locks. But the lock itself has to be relatively easy to take off in case of a problem to contact a person who put a lock on a device, but is not possible to contact them - they finnished their shift and they switched off the work phone. A bit of twisted logic, but still, it can be solid from a certain perspective 😁
His question was, why does it have such a good quality pic resistant core
@@neilkurzman4907 This is indeed a mistery. Masterlock's strategy geniuses work in weird ways i suppose 😁
Some of their LOTO padlocks are more durable though, as shown in this video.
@@ogi22 I assume to make it harder for bored annoyed technically inclined people to remove them without breaking them? Because that would be BAD.
The red plastic body is reinforced with "lose your career" fibers that prevent almost all improper cutting attempts.
or picking attemps :) maybe someone doesn't see you, but a lot of places have their own cameras now.
"You are using a master lock model 176, you can open it using a master lock model 176"
Ahhh, is this a McNallyOfficial fan I see...?😉🔓🤘😀
There we go! I expected a McNally reference in the top few comments.
Ah yes, a fellow man of culture.
As someone who got into locksport thanks to BosnianBill and LockPickingLawyer, Master is known to be the best beginner practice lock brand. Along with all of the faults LPL noted in this video, Master allows for locks with all pins being the same cut. I acquired one of these myself. You can literally pick it with a bobby pin and nothing else. I had to toss that lock because it was so frustratingly easy to pick that it was preventing me from learning new techniques with any skill because it’d just pop open as soon as I put the pick in and touch the pins.
These days I have to go out of my way to look for challenging locks. The ones found in local stores just don’t cut it anymore.
LPL later mused that it may be so that a LOTO lock is easy to break with evidence of tampering, but hard to pick leaving no evidence of tampering. The other locks are easy to pick, but hard to break as evidence of tampering is no longer.
I do wonder if it's based on safety regulation. Make something easy to bolt cut by Admin, but difficult to bypass by rank-and-file.
yeah, bc picking is harder to detect than destroying a plastic body
Sometimes people forget to remove locks after finishing, if they go home and it's verified nobody is working on it it can be cut off.
@@emmata98I think you may have hit the nail on the head actually. Harden them against non-destructive attacks so it’s obvious to the owner when one is opened by someone who isn’t the owner. That way you don’t lose the chain of custody by re-locking the system out with the same lock and without the owners knowledge.
If the lock is removed in an emergency, and the lock owner isn’t present. Then when they return, they’ll know they have to re-certify the system is in a safe state for work to continue even if no one tells them.
That was what Tyler was getting at when he was going on about cutting it off in certain situations. I think LPL's main point was that on locks that are supposed to be secure against all forms of entry, both cutting and picking they use rubbish cores whereas on locks that don't need to be so secure (in general but mainly against cutting) they use much better cores.
Sort of. The specific regulation is that whoever puts it on retains exclusive access to the key and is the only person who can remove the lock.
However, regulations do allow for removal if the operator cannot be reached. All reasonable methods to reach the operator must be exhausted as the ideal is that they personally remove it. If they cannot be reached or cannot come in, they MUST be notified in person (I think phone may also be allowed I'll have to brush up on that) before the start of their next shift that the lock has been removed. That's why regulation also specifies a name be on the tag.
I operate a large double span hydraulically powered concrete swing bridge. These locks aren't used too often, mostly for locking out circuits or generators. We usually remove keys and use yellow (caution, communicate before operating) or red (do not operate, remove key and take key with you) tags to denote work is being done on certain parts. It's really interesting to see what other industrial workplaces may use for LOTO situations.
When I was in Industrial Hygiene as a team leader we used these to Lock Out the machines for my operatives for cleaning, they were a pain in my proverbial, 30+ a night signing them in and out and checking their proper use. The keys used to jam up in the majority of these damn things and caused more problems than they fixed as in my operatives would "forget" to use them, which yes, lead to accidents.
Most locks are at risk of being cut or smashed off as thieves don't care about destroying it, they just want the goods. For LOTO it might make sense that the pick resistance is what is important as it's used to monitor access and anything destructive would be obvious tampering. For theft the physical strength matters while for LOTO the ability to detect tampering matters, opposite uses so opposite investment in materials and design?
I'm going to say no to the picking idea - if someone wants to open the lock then they've made it specifically much easier to open with brute force.....a strong person might be able to snap it with their bare hands.
The purpose of the lock is to stop accidental opening and the extra spool multiplies up the safety factor of the lock by it being practically impossible to be opened by any old key you jiggle in it - a worker needing access might have a huge selection of keys in their pocket and insert the wrong one - in the 80s the entire Ford range, in Europe, could be opened by six keys.....nothing particularly wrong with the keys/locks but I did end up sitting in someone elses car by complete accident......a car is just another form of dangerous heavy machinery that only specified people are allowed to operate (and a red Ford is commonplace in a big car park - good job they had furry dice and poor taste in cassettes).
"These are not security locks."
Also:
"These are fairly robust!"
Gag for Brits/Irish
'These are small, but the ones out there are far away'.
I'm glad you mentioned the reason the standard LoTo lock is non hardened, they are there so someone doesn't accidently harm someone while they are working, or accidently activate a faulty system. However, if they lose a key, or there is an emergency, they need to be able to be cut open quickly. I've never had it where it was a need to open one immediately but We did lose the keys to one, then per policy of the company I was at, we had to fill out a bunch of paperwork to describe why we cut the lock. Just for record keeping that hey, we lost the key, we removed the lock.
Also, yeah, most locks are there to keep honest people honest. They act as a deterrent, The reality is that if someone is going to break into something, Think about the standard toolbox latch over eye lock setup, doesn't matter if you put the best lock in the world on it, Someone that wants to get in is going to look at that and go "I can cut the latch tongue with tin snips" and that's the end of it. The lock is there to keep out people that would get in through "oh look it's not locked" or "I'm sure he won't mind if I borrow X". of course that's a typical example of where you might see a heavy duty lock body, I've seen a lot of guys in the shops put beefy looking locks on the boxes, while we all know that the design of their toolbox will stop someone that actually wants to get in for about 10 seconds, Or they'll just take the whole box.
Unless a worker forgot to take it off and you call him to make sure what ever equipment or circuit he was working on is in safe and in working order, there is not many circumstances where you should remove someone’s loto.
That's why at the paper mill I work at sometimes during shutdowns, every single confined space someone wants to use has an attendant/vessel guard (my position). You lock onto the main permit box while you're in the mill, as well as the confined space permit in front of me, your name goes down, the time in/out goes down. If you leave my line of sight, your lock goes with you (barring that one time the guy's key fell through the floor and he had to go get it - these companies really need to look into carabineers. People have lost so many keys in the confined space, falling through the floor, etc).
They're also gas tested every 3-4 hours, whenever it's left unattended (even for one minute). Makes you think though - nearly every safety policy that's been put in place in general, was written in blood somewhere. Whether it happened once or more.
Imagine someone is doing maintenance on the backup cooling system of a nuclear power plant. The backup is powered down and locked out. Then the primary cooling system fails. You are minutes from a meltdown. You cannot reach the person doing maintenance on the backup cooler. Something like this is a reason you may cut the LOTO lock, turn the system back on (possibly killing the maintenance worker) to prevent a disaster that could cost many lives and severe ecological and financial damage. (I am sure this is an improbable/impossible example as many more things would need to fail, but it illustrates the point, sometimes you might have to bring a system up even when it isn't safe to do so.)
@@kg4wwn You'd hope that the nuclear industry actually has its shit together enough not to need such locks - anything so critical should be traceable down to 'Plan E', with multiple fallbacks, like going for a spacewalk where you rehearse every move for six months and how to recover from just about any setback.
But there are millions of places where you don't want the power/heat/mechanical device to come back online in any workplace eg in print finishing the guillotine blade should be impossible to reach by the operator/spectator due to the safety lockouts unless the power is off - famously Tony Iommi (Black Sabbath) lost a good chunk of finger due to lack of safety cutout.
Explains a lot!
@@pd4165 I am absolutely sure they have at least a 'Plan E' that doesn't involve a LOTO cutting. Turning on a system to save a meltdown at the expense of a technicians life is probably somewhere around plan U or V. But if they actually have their shit together, they have a plan that includes it, and rules for how and when to do so.
I LOVE lockpickinglawyer. He was the reason I bought my first set of Lockpicks and it's an incredibly rewarding hobby.
Funny thing is, you kind of giggled when he mentioned picking open locks while watching a movie, but I totally relate to that. I have issues focusing due to restless energy, and while my go-to isn't currently lockpicking (I got into trouble for that from a friend cause the clicking was distracting), I've moved to solving a very quiet rubik's cube while I movie watch with friends, to keep my mind free
I have a well lubed combination padlock for this.
You can feel the wheels lining up, but not hear them.
If your friend can hear the clicking I'll give you your money back.
Honest.
These locks really aren't designed to be a security device. They're just a way to stop someone from walking up and energizing whatever is being worked on.
Captain obvious strikes again
@@earth-chan9577 But if he doesn't do it, then who will?
"These locks really aren't designed to be a security device. They're just a way to stop someone from walking up and energizing whatever is being worked on... So let's put there the most secure core we have" (C) someone on Master Lock Company meeting 😆
Exactly: they went with the security pins so someone couldn't pick it and say it was never on, but made it easy to break in case it needed to be removed by someone other than the person who put it on (but would be obvious that it had been removed)
You know like a safty device would
what he may not realize it many times when doing a lock out tag out it can require multiple locks, where you have many departments that have to be notified and approve of placing the equipment or device back in service, these locks are also placed inside distribution panels with limited space making the small body locks more desirable. and of course they are used mostly to ensure that no one tries to operate equipment that's been taking out of service for either maintenance or repairs, not to prevent theft, your not going to rely on one of these to chain your Harley to a lamp post. I remember once while in the navy before lock out became standard practice it was just tag out, I was doing maintenance on filters for ventilation system, turned off the power and hung a tag on it, removed the filters for cleaning, when I came back someone had tossed my tag on to the floor and turned the blower back on, guess it was getting just a bit too warm for somebody. its a good thing I wasn't repairing or working on the blower motor itself.
Someone mentioned this elsewhere, but I think the reason why the core is so good is because you may have lots of very similar locks in a single place, and you have to make doubly sure that the wrong key won't open the wrong lock, and that might not be guaranteed with a low-security core due to accidental raking, "bumping" or just turning the key too hard.
I used to be a maintenance diver at a certain theme park featuring marine animals. We dove with many of the animals, but never the killer whales. The trainers would move the animals into an adjacent pool and then close a gate, which was done remotely with pneumatics.The LOTO lock had to be placed directly on the gate, by walking across a narrow catwalk spanning the top (which only the trainers were allowed on). Therefore, they would place their key in a nearby box, and the divers would lockout that box. It was an interesting solution to the problem of a worker who needs LOTO protection, but isn't allowed to physically place a lock where it's required. I wonder how common this kind of scenario is.
It was all taken very seriously, which was a good thing. If a key were lost and a lock had to be cut, there was a whole procedure that involved multiple department heads being physically present and signing off, as well as incident reports and all that. There was also an incident wherein an employee mistakenly exposed a colleague to a dangerous animal, by remotely unlocking a gate (which the animal could have then pushed open-but didn't). She immediately realized and corrected the mistake, but was nonetheless let go.
In the same way that I've seen Gordon Ramsay criticize chefs in high-end restaurants-at worst for endangering people and at best for overcharging-while praising small, family-run establishments for serving hygienic, enjoyable, and reasonably priced food, I feel the LockPickingLawyer is similarly reasonable in his expectations.
His issue doesn’t seem to be with the low quality of certain products per se, but rather with the outrageous pricing and misleading advertising that could cause an unsuspecting customer to trust valuable items to poorly made locks. (Often, these products have well-known vulnerabilities that could be easily and cheaply fixed.)
I've seen him commend affordable locks that are of decent quality, or if they’re still subpar, at least acknowledge when the price reflects that.
Ah master lock masters at disappointing
This comment is severely underrated
master at masterring how to master masterlocks with the criteria of mastering dissapointment
This Masterlock is the least disappointing.
It's congfusing because it's for safety not security, but it has better core than most Masterlocks.
I'm pretty sure the LOTO core is built to a regulatory requirement; nothing else could induce MasterLock to make a core _good._
The body is vulnerable because, as you pointed out, it has to be able to be cut off easily if need be, preferably with something that's in literally any toolbox, by someone who does _not_ make a study of destructive attacks upon padlocks.
I wonder if the LOTO is vulnerable to a padlock shimming attack; I would be genuinely surprised if not.
I usually never have anything to do with stuff where LOTO locks are used, but I once visited a friend that works in a small university particle accelerator. All the entrances to the actual ring had these LOTO locks, which I expected, but what totally surprised me was that there were LOTO keys on all places where ladders were stored as the radiation zone was technically a cone.
Not really related to this video or the LPLs video, but that's an interesting memory this video triggered :)
That’s really interesting. If I’m understanding you right, that’s like a “reverse LO/TO.”
I’m used to putting these things on equipment to lock it into a safe state before working on it.
It sounds like the ones at your facility were to deny access to the dangerous area until the equipment had been put in a safe state.
The bizarre thing for me is the spool-pins and serrated pins. For those who aren't lock-geeks, those are specifically protections against picking, but who's going to stand there and pick the lock just electrocute your electrician... and if you're angry enough at him to do it... well.. a bolt-cutter gets you there faster.
Of course, it's also worth noting picking a lock to steal your stuff is really more of a movie trope. Yes, in theory one could do it, in practice if you just want to steal, destroying the lock (or even shimming it, in most cases) is faster.
Had a work incident while working in a warehouse. A crew was working on a compactor but they hadn't placed their loc . I bumped my cart push the button waited for cyclo finish and began driving back to my station. When I got about 2/3 through the section this guy runs up screaming at me about how I nearly killed someone. I'm like how? He said the machine was down for maintenance and had a lock on it. No it didn't went back showed him. No lock no tag. The guy got apologetic, I grabbed my radio to report the incident he got so mad and tried to put the tag on before the plant manager got there. I had to laugh like you know there is a camera right there, right. He got fired on the spot when manager and security showed up.
He's not so much complaining tha the LOTO locks are easily breakable, just that Master Lock, with their pompous motto and several "unpickable" and "unbreakable" locks, CAN design a pretty great lock, but only chooses to use that one in the least secure lock body while their regular use locks are made in hulk levels of protection but vulnerable to picking.
And yeah, sure, a lock needs to be openable in case the key is lost or broken, but for personal use, more often than not, it should take a locksmith, someone whose job and focus is in picking locks, not a guy with a hammer or someone who watched a tutorial on picking locks. And by LPL's many showcases of Master locks, well, a whole bunch of them can be opened by just knocking them lightly with a hammer, take under 10 seconds to pick if you know what you're doing and maybe a minute if you don't, and can easily be broken with brute force.
I remember a story from a long time ago at a power plant. A worker locked out a piece of equipment. Some numbskull cut the lock off and re-energized the circuit while the worker was in contact with it. His screams echoed through the plant. As it was described "His arms turned into the wires for a Jacob's ladder." The guy who did it got his ass kicked and the police called. When the police showed up, they said "he fell down the stairs." He was prosecuted and found guilty of aggravated assault, reckless endangerment, attempted homicide, etc. He was sentenced to about 10 years in prison. As for the worker, they had to amputate both arms.
Our LOTO tags (like shown at 1:47) had our photo and our cell phone# on them, that way you knew who to contact if they forgot to remove it OR who you were potentially killing if you cut the lock off and turned the locked-out control back on... We had to cut off LOTO locks surprisingly often from certain people who seemed to always leave their locks on and then left for the day... Hated doing it, since to do it correctly, you need to actually get in contact with the previous person, and many times they didn't answer their phone after work (which is fair enough), so we would then have to verify they were not on the premises and then re-check the system for safety (if they didn't do a handoff). And many people didnt use LOTO tags, so you're just looking at some random lock attached to the control arm for a disconnect....
On the flip side (and maybe because of this), we had quite a few incidents of LOTO locks being incorrectly removed (or people not using LOTO in the first place, mainly new temp-agency-supplied operators) and people getting seriously injured or killed.
I worked on a project at a synchrotron for a few months that had numerous LOTO zones that could potentially kill you. I was VERY disappointed about not getting any superpowers. Some of the devices looked like 20 ft high microwave parts and lead walls were all over the place.
The location of such a lock would be the lock body itself ****
And the lock... think of it as a tamper resistant tag of sorts.
The goal is to prevent un noticed tampering. But if needed can be broken in emergency and quickly!
The sites Loto plan will define the use of colors in the program. like the lock above with 2 key that would be a shift transition lock. ALSO YOU NEVER CUT A LOCK UNLESS YOU CAN CONTACT THE PERSON THAT PUT THE KEY ON TO CONFIRM THE CONDITIONS. Additionally the loto plan spells out what needs to be done to remove a lock when the key is not present.
11:46 Absolutely. Bluffing is a real tool for defense and security, for example, The Ghost Army, and dummy cameras.
My dad uses these locks ona mine site when he’s working under a massive dump truck, you don’t want someone starting it up and crushing you. They also put danger tags everywhere when they’re working on those things
Thanks for answering the LPL's question- if there is a requirement to be able to cut off a lotto lock as part of normal procedure, then it makes sense not to harden it.
As for the other locks, if they look intimidating, people may believe that they are more secure and less likely to try picking it... allowing Master to cheap out on the cores.
I used to drive forklifts (in Australia), and our LOTO for those was literally just cardboard tags with rubber bands - each lift truck carried a stack of blank tags in a dedicated little tray on the back.
Then again, that's a case where the life you're protecting mostly belongs to the person who needs to respect the tag. Can confirm, you couldn't pay me to operate a tagged forklift.
Doesn't matter how beefy it looks. If there is MASTER written on it's an invite to be quickly picked and often not even picking is necessary as they have well known security flaws.
Basically a Master Lock is like a nuclear power plant with a heavily guarded front entry but the back door is open and all the important controls are right behind this door.
Their normal locks are so bad that you can accidentally rake them open with the key to another lock. These are designed to not allow that. You need the right key to open them. Or, if that person lost the key, they're very easy to break open so the equipment can be restarted after the maintenance is done.
They're secure enough to prevent an osha fine, and that's all they need to do
There is a bit of "intimidation factor" at play on the other locks. The main issue is that real thefts and destructive crimes don't involve picking locks. Partially because it's a learned skill that takes time to master, but also these crimes are usually quick and the criminal is expected to have fled the scene in less than 10 minutes. Even a good lock picker can burn 5 minutes on an unfamiliar lock, compare that to braking a window and unlocking a door through the opening, or entering through an unlocked upper window via a ladder. There's less time exposed before entry that could arouse suspicion, compared to kneeling in front of an entryway for several minutes. It's a matter of least resistance, there's often easier ways to bypass security than through the lock.
Well...that unless they have a rake. Low-skill, faster to use.
We had experimental nuclear reactors, each access gate had a unique key. If any key would was removed a “firing alarm” sounded, indicating you needed to leave the area. Only when all keys were inserted in to the “firing panel” could we do our test shot. The keys weren’t to restrict access, more to ensure personnel were clear.
We had something similar in the military at ammunition facilities, you left your ID in a box prior to entry. That way they knew who was inside the facility and when it was clear (so they could release the war dogs).
Big industrial places aren’t the only places that use these, gas stations do too
The LOTO locks we used looked a lot like the middle model @7:30. They could be broken open with a hammer, in case of an emergency. That being said, lockouts are usually done with the machine at a zero energy state. Removing someone else's LOTO lock without telling the owner or going through the approved administrative procedure is a great way to get instantly fired.
I work in a frozen food factory, one of my duties is to assign a storage location to pallets of frozen food after they've passed through a machine that applies shrink wrap.
I have 2 LOTO to apply when I'm operating the machine during normal use.
One for the access door and one for the compressed air supply.
If the machine has a major bonk... I can also lock off the main breaker switch. That needs an electrician to fix... Typically I'll remove my lock when the electrician arrives and he'll apply his own.
Typically in my workplace, if you are still on shift then your lock stays on as well as the electricians.
I once was a key holder to an LOTO lock and I'll be honest I felt more responsibility with that key than I have with anything else. Could the lock be easily cut off? Yeah. Could I live through that shame? Probably not.
I would bet it’s a economical thing. Like to add the core to civilian applications would add significant cost that the nuclear plant isn’t going to be bothered by and they just want an overly secure lock that can be broken in an emergency.
Another strange thing with these locks is they come with 2 keys, so the first thing you have to do is throw one of the keys away
Those LOTO locks are really just to make people think before they switch an isolated system back on. I have a set for electrical isolation. I would only expect the security to extend to someone opening the panel cover and thinking “Oh, it’s not tripped, it’s been isolated”.
intimidation is a good bit of it. Most people don't know. But usually people with lockpicking skills do know.
When you said there were yellow locks, I just imagined Uncle Andrew saying, “Not a red one. I can’t let you unlock those just yet. But I’d be happy to let you remove one of the yellow ones.”
Regarding the intimidation factor of the "heavy duty" locks, I'm reminded of the adage "a lock only keeps out honest thieves."
Yeah, everywhere I've worked in the nuclear industry, and even going back to my Navy career, 'violating a red tag' was a HUGE no-no. Could get you hauled up before the Captain, and your shipmates would certainly 'calibrate' your a$$. They are a matter of life or death to your co-worker/ shipmate. It's a matter of trust, not 'security'.
Oh, and some places like the control room, we didn't even use 'locks', we just used tags and that was enough.
Oh Mah Gawd! I am so thankful you did this reaction. I've never seen the lockpick lawyer before. I have heard of him but avoid lockpicking videos and training media. I prefer trial and error, since I'm just a hobbyist with no intent to pick more than the free locks I get given to me. More importantly about this reaction is that Riggin Friggin Rockin Frockin Master LOTO Lock. My wounded pride and ego has just been slightly vindicated. I had no confirmation behind my belief that something was not standard about the core. I am a self taught, sophomore/senior-ish junior lock pick hobbyist. What I mean is that the locks I'm able to pick, I can pick really fast, but my overall lock theology is neglected. Well, as this all pertains to that Master LOTO lock, that SOB lock is one that really wore me down learning it. Now I see why. I chose it believing it was going to be an elementary lock with loose tolerances and would require near to no effort to pick. I was fooled by the cheap looking housing for sure. Most locks I had experienced previous to getting the 410 took one to twenty minutes to get my first breach. The 410 stumped me for a long time of repeated visits. The only other lock to do this to me is a cheap no name lock. Cheap as in it was from the dollar store, but surprisingly not cheap at all in materials and tolerances. It took the better part of a week to figure out the dumbbell pins that messed with my head. Anyways, thanks again for the content. This might be my most favorite of your vids now. Cheers!
While the two metal red locks are LOTO locks, you generally won't see these used in a plant by plant employees where the plant has a one lock, one key, one employee policy. Sometimes the aluminum ones are used when the lock is tethered to a lockout point, but these typically aren't carried by employees. The 4-pin core steel locks are more likely to be used by systems integrators that don't follow a one lock, one key, one employee policy (SI's don't care about key differs and locking out the machine is more of a formality). I do think the 6 pin core is used in the plastic lock because in one lock, one key, one employee systems (what this lock is intended for), you want a lot of key differs because there's a lot of locks out there, and because there's a lot of locks out there (that could potentially be cut off since there's only one key), it makes sense to make them as cheaply as possible and still perform the task at hand.
The question is less about 6 pins, and more about the security pins, eccentric keyway and the serrated pin on 5 - all of which feel superfluous on a lock with a body like this. There were surely cheaper ways to get the variety, such as the 9-pin locks from Godrej - so why make the core this good for a body this fragile?
Even Master Lock’s best core is nowhere near close to the best core ever. It’s a common hobby to get challenge locks for picking that a fellow locksmith has designed to be unpickable.
Yep. I work as a confined space attendant sometimes. I've actually seen these less and less in use at our pulp/paper mill. Most of them are all just standard padlocks, and each company tends to have their own lock, or at least lock color, which is interesting. However, I haven't seen a plastic lock for people locking into confined space. Maybe it's just because it's cheaper, or there's no standard at the mill. As long as everyone inside has a lock on, they're signed in, it's good to go.
Most of the people who have access to these locks also have the tools and know-how to bust the lock open in seconds (you can do this with approval if a lock owner loses their key or goes missing). I suppose the important design requirements for LOTO locks is that there are many unique keys that won't ever work on the wrong lock (could easily cause an accidental death), and that they can't have a big chunky form factor because they need to fit into the often cramped spaces where LOTO devices are used. Sometimes you can have a bunch of them right next to each other in a tiny cabinet. If someone wants to purposefully tamper with a LOTO lock without authorisation that's an instant termination offense and the lock being weak isn't really the problem there.
I think this lock is meant as a reusable seal.
If you pick a LOTO lock, you don't leave any obvious evidence so they made it as hard as possible to pick it. Destruction in any way leaves clear evidence that the device it was securing was tampered with.
This deserved a video! you don't hear "Robust" and "Masterlock" in the same sentence everyday ;-)
The ironic part is that Masterlock's "best" lock is for something that is effectively a zip-tie. They aren't meant to be "high security" (as you point out, there are reasons to remove them.) If you're in a working environment where people willingly remove other peoples tag-outs, well, a lock isn't going to stop that. (and you should RUN as fast as possible away from that shit.)
(* Masterlock doesn't have a "best lock". They are all dog shit. They _will not_ protect your stuff from anyone who means to take it.)
It might be quite secure for a master lock lock, but that means nothing. If you want to see a very secure lock I recommend his video 1398. It's a lock for which he needs a special tool for and even then it takes him far longer than for most locks.
I'd love it if you made a video about a channel called "the proper people" specifically them exploring an abandoned nuclear power plant
I remember watching this LPL video and purchasing two of these locks. 30 seconds with a dremel and I could see how a padlock worked. I'm now working on picking the locks inside them. My locks even have plastic shackles.
One interesting theory I've seen in LPL's comment section that in the US where someone could easily have a gun or some really powerful cutting tool, it's a bigger risk than meeting a skilled locksmith. Like, 99% risk meeting a person carrying a gun or special tool than 1% meeting a highly skilled person who can open it without breaking it.
Though it doesn't explain why some locks are so bad they could be opened with a stone or shimmed with a couple strips of plastic carved out of a PET bottle.
You got my "you need to cut them". I guess the aim is to make the non-key removal destructive, so it is obvious that you've broken the lock rather than just unlocked.
Sometimes a lock is not security but a defense against clandestine interference. You can get in (nefariously or legitimately in emergency) but you cant do it without leaving evidence or accidently
He has a video on something relatively cool imo, it's a game for kids that lets them pick locks...I'm not making this up there is a game where each person gets a lock with exchangeable 'cores' ranging from easy to hard and it's a race to 'pick' the lock first. Of course he's not exactly the guy you wanna play against lol.
Yup, its called Break Free- ask me how I know....🙄🔓😂👍
I have no issue with LOTO locks as they are an amazing safety feature to have on hand.
I can also agree with the lock body being easier to break than a standard lock for the emergency reason of not being able to get the key and needing to power on whatever the lock is attached to.
I do however think they could use a less secure core.
It's a case of the lock stopping accidental use rather than someone who is set to using said thing.
Even a 4 pin core will still offer thousands of different cuts available for keying options.
I think the idea is they are easy to remove, but hard to tamper with.
In an emergency they can be easily broken. But they are difficult to bypass by means that don't leave a mark.
7:10 oh and we get to deal with those number 3s along with a number of other locks on the majority of the trailers we get from the DC
I’m not an expert by any means so take this with a grain of salt (but I read a lot). What you talked about at the end, it has a name relating to the security industry writ large. It’s referred to as ‘security by obscurity.’ I.E. the thought that ‘if something looks big and scary, it’ll ward off most attackers, and that’s what we’re trying to do so it’s good enough.’ In my mind that’s stupid. In this example, they put all the time, money and resources into making a really nice lock against destructive attacks, but couldn’t be bothered to put a decent core in it, which would be very cheap to do, none of the components in a locks core are expensive or hard to make.
And the core in that LOTO lock isn’t exactly one of the best cores ever, but it’s respectable, it’s gonna give a novice trouble, or even someone with a bit of experience, but someone who’s a gifted or experienced locksmith is gonna get into it, as where the cores in the other locks are quite trash
Locks are definitely more of a deterrent than a security solution. I mean a skilled lockpick can get through most locks as the lockpickinglawer has repeatedly done.
LOTO locks are a good indication that something is already wrong with the machine or system. At the very least someone will look around to make sure the technician isn't in the machinery. If the system is critical to the safety of the plant or the local population then there is already a huge problem. Odds are the warning signs is exactly what the tech is there to fix.
Weirdest LOTO lock I've seen was on a dock door. Door would roll up but a key pin was worn out and sometimes the 400 pound door would slam down. That's when I learned that pin was considered a consumable part that would wear out over times. Some of the roll up doors at that facility were over 1000 pounds. At the very least a person would be having a bad day of the door randomly decided to not stay open and crush them.
A lot of the purpose of locks isn’t for preventing access but to deter access. If someone wants to get a lock open, and they know what they’re doing it will be opened.
It’s the same for security guards their main purpose is to act as a deterrent.
I feel it has more to do with tamper evidence than whether or not you can break it off.
If this lock were to be removed by someone who was not intended to use it, that could mean major injury or death.
If it were easy to pick, it could be manipulated and put back into place without anyone knowing.
Yes, it seems critical that a lock not be removed and replaced without anyone knowing. That can lead to major problems. Some people do know how to do it, but solving that issue is not up to the manufacturer, it's the workplace's responsibility to foster a safety culture so this does not happen. ANY tampering of a LOTO lock is an offense you get fired for at my workplace.
think people are looking at the paradox the wrong way, the loto lock makes perfect sense for its use case, the real question is why such a core isn't used for the other premium locks where you protection from all forms of attack.
6:52 I believe we actually use 65s for our compactor
There is an intimidation factor in security but it will only deter amateurs.
It comes down to money. You can charge huge amounts of money for the red lock for government regulated uses and all they care about is certain security aspects, while other locks are concerned for other security aspects.
None of the requirements need to make logical sense.
The small plastic lock probably only has the 6th pin because it’s bought in larger bulk making it far harder to insure all keys are not duplicated simply by virtue of using every combination in a single order.
The more robust locks are made in smaller quantities and bought on more individual basis than in bulk so master lock can safely cut corners where it is cost effective.
It’s probably less cost effective to make every 5 pin lock different when you can duplicate most of those and need only one pin to be different to solve the issue vs paying someone to be more accurate with 5 pins.
Makes sense since theyre almost meant to be broken, the heavier locks would be more worried about someone breaking into them then someone picking them and then replacing the lock after
tbf, masterlock is a known bad lock brand/good lockpicking training brand
but it works because people don't know better, and a lock just has to look tough for people to buy it.
Harry Houdini would of had a field day with these the master escape artist if he were still alive
Well the intimidation factor is quickly nullifies by them putting that big Master logo on there. Anyone who knows anything about locks then instantly know that it's a nead indestructible lock filles with creame cheese.
I wonder if the difficulty of the core is to avoid using something like a bump key or rake, something that could be fashioned out of another key, and then "used" almost normally. So if all the cores sucked one sleazy manager cutting corners could essentially have a skeleton key that unlocks them all, without anyone knowing anything was amiss. But still easily opened if need be by destructive means.
4:23... Slight correction to that statement you made. Each lock is only supposed to have one person who can unlock it BUT there can be multiple locks on the same device. I worked in a facility that processed medical waste and needles and stuff and every few weeks when we would need to clean the autoclave out (think a big pressure cooker that can hold 50,000 lbs of medical waste) where we would have one locking device that we could use to lock out the machine that could than itself be locked with up to 20 different locks where so long as even one is still on it can't be unlocked and then we would have 12 people all attach a lock and go inside the autoclave to work on cleaning it out. That way if even one single person was still in the autoclave no one could start it up because if someone was in there and it got closed to get ran no one would be able to hear you through how think the metal had to be to be able to withstand those levels of pressure needed to sterilize the medical waste to then be processed.
As such it is not one single person controlling it, but each and every person who is working on it, we also had a smaller version for 4 locks because we had two maintenance people plus occasionally the manager would help with maintenance of the other devices we had to use to process the medical waste. So if three people were working a machine you would put three locks on so that Maintenance man 1 can't accidently turn it on while maintenance man 2 is still in there just because maintenance man one saw manager leave and assumed it was all clear.
At the site i work at the rule is the reds each person has a key that can be to multiple locks (all the locks are just for you but they may have multiple keys as each lock comes with a key) then there are the yellow which can have up to 5 locks to one key that are used for the machine isolation and then put in a box that is locked by a green lock that is 1-1 and then each of us lock onto that box with our red.
Energy isolation, control power does not count for LOTO. The lock tells everyone not to mess with or get terminated for cause.
id imagine that plastic body is there because of product contamination. no manufacturing plant wants metals to be movable equipment. furthermore some plastics are more durable to acidic and caustic cleaners prolonging the life. also nobody in a plant is going to hit someones lock with a hammer. even if they were most of the disconnects/loto points are also plastic so if u were that determined to break it a metal body wouldn't help anyway.
Worst case for a facility: someone picks a lock for sabotage. If they destroy it, it's obvious.
Worst case for a home/business: someone just strongman's the lock, not subtle, don't care if it is discovered.
The facility wants to ensure that if the lock is opened, even by an expert, you know.
The home/business wants to stop amateur burglars.
Makes sense to me.
Plus, as you say, the facility needs to be able to open that lock even if the key is lost, and needs it open *now*.
Why would you even need a strong core in the LOTO padlock? It's not like some employee will bring the lockpicks out because there is a padlock that protects his coworker from electrocution. Those padlocks are mostly to make sure no one is just not thinking about it and run it anyway. And if someone wants to open it so badly, in most work places the tools to destroy them are easier to get than tools to open it. And it doesn't need any skill to do it. And if you do not want anyone to know that it was opened, you probably will give it out by doing what you wanted to do.
Imagine if that locks core is a nuclear reactor
The research says that having a lock of any kind on something prevents the overwhelming majority of potential break ins. How good the lock actually is or not doesn't gain you a whole lot of extra coverage beyond that and forcible entry is more common than a pick attack as well.
You have to watch more of LPL clips with MasterLock locks. The vast majority offer extremely poor protection.
Maybe they should have a bolt cutter readily available in industrial settings to break the lock in emergency situations.
I’m thinking most locks are physically attacked maybe casually picked.
Weird how those bigger locks don’t at least match the Loto type however.
Oh yeah we have these at the tool and die plant I work at.
We never use them.
Hell, we just used lockwire and EB red tape on my ship.