How to replace an electric water heater heating element
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- Опубликовано: 11 окт 2024
- On our rheem water tank
Little information on water heaters per Wikipedia
Domestically, water is traditionally heated in vessels known as water heaters, kettles, cauldrons, pots, or coppers. These metal vessels that heat a batch of water do not produce a continual supply of heated water at a preset temperature. Rarely, hot water occurs naturally, usually from natural hot springs. The temperature varies with the consumption rate, becoming cooler as flow increases.
Appliances that provide a continual supply of hot water are called water heaters, hot water heaters, hot water tanks, boilers, heat exchangers, geysers (Southern Africa only), or calorifiers. These names depend on region, and whether they heat potable or non-potable water, are in domestic or industrial use, and their energy source. In domestic installations, potable water heated for uses other than space heating is also called domestic hot water (DHW).
Fossil fuels (natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas, oil), or solid fuels are commonly used for heating water. These may be consumed directly or may produce electricity that, in turn, heats water. Electricity to heat water may also come from any other electrical source, such as nuclear power or renewable energy. Alternative energy such as solar energy, heat pumps, hot water heat recycling, and geothermal heating can also heat water, often in combination with backup systems powered by fossil fuels or electricity.
Densely populated urban areas of some countries provide district heating of hot water. This is especially the case in Scandinavia, Finland and Poland. District heating systems supply energy for water heating and space heating from combined heat and power (CHP) plants, waste heat from industries, incinerators, geothermal heating, and central solar heating. Actual heating of tap water is performed in heat exchangers at the consumers' premises. Generally the consumer has no in-building backup system, due to the expected high availability of district heating systems.
In the United States today, domestic hot water used in homes is most commonly heated with natural gas, electric resistance, or a heat pump. Electric heat pump hot water heaters are significantly more efficient than electric resistance hot water heaters, but also more expensive to purchase. Some energy utilities offer their customers funding to help offset the higher first cost of energy efficient hot water heaters.
Good video. Best to drain the tank before changing the elements if you can. A lot less messy. Shut hydro off, turn cold water feed to tank off, open hot water tap closest to tank (to help tank drain more quickly) and then open drain valve on the hot water tank (at base). Once the water is drained, you can start removing the heater element(s). Once the element(s) replaced, open the cold water feed valve to the tank and fill it until there is water coming out of the hot water tap you opened previously. Close the hot water tap. Check for leaks at the element(S). If no leaks, connect the wires, and turn the hydro back on. Grab your favorite beverage and pat yourself on the back....all done!
I couldn’t agree with you more about the bottom drain at the base the reason I don’t do that anymore is one time that drain never stopped leaking on me on a Sunday 😂 I have the worst luck though appreciate you typing that all out it’s helpful
I learn more from you than the video…thanks
@@dlandscapingdesign1052 Glad it was helpful. I should add, that if the tank is old, there is a chance that the valve at the bottom of the tank can become clogged up with the sediment and corrosion that builds up and falls off over time, especially if you live in an area with hard water. You may have to use something to unclog it air compressor or flexible wire you can snake thru it. My old tank base valve was so clogged, I had to cut it off in order to drain the bottom of the tank. I replaced it with a new Rheem Plastic tank so shouldn't have that problem again.
Nice 👍🏼
Awesome
Hvac tech doing plumbing cross training for heating season. This was GREAT! Simple, covered the important points, didn’t over explain or overthink it..boom! Done.. 👷🏽♂️👍🏼
My man! Thank you very much 🙏 i appreciate that glad it helped!
Two years later and this is still helping people out. Thank you!
Thanks for sharing your experiences! I try to do my best to help others …
I just did my elements. No shower in 4 days. I git the STANK! NOW, we got hot water. Thanks for the help.
So glad ya ain’t stank any mo
😅@@frontwoodsfarmer2063
As a new apartment maintenance guy, this video just saved me a potential apartment flood lol thanks dude.
That’s all I’m trying to do is help people there are plenty of better ways of doing this I’m sure. This is just the way I do it and it seems to work I’ve gotten alot of negative comments however the positive out weight the negative. I hope I gained a new subscriber 🤞
3 years later and this is still the best video I could fine on her about it
You are the man thank u 🙏
Thank you for the time! Your intro was very correct on no fathers and single mothers sir. The kids were impressed and so was I have a great day thanks again heart saving money on repairs and auto repairs when can
Thank u for all the kind words ❤️
This is an excellent tutorial! I have done this a few times and it's pretty easy. Most heaters do have a universal element hook-up and it can be done in no more time than you took doing it in this video which is very informative. I always stress that you don't want to turn on the power at your breaker box until after completely filling the tank as you can very easily ruin the element by having it live without being wet
Thank you for the kind words! I should have mentioned filling the tank that is a good point i appreciate this comment!
Thank u for ur video, dad pass away, miss him a lot. On well water, learning.
You reply to everyone one you are such a kind-hearted RUclipsr you deserve more fame
I just always believe the little guy deserves so much better than he gets a reply is the least I can do for some hardworking people out there probably fixing their tanks after a long day at work. I do appreciate you saying that but I want to help that makes me even more happy. Thanks for watching 😉
I have the top element seeping water from around the gasket area . My wiring bar is held in place using a support bracket the slides onto the element housing . I think I can tighten the element enough to stop the seep of water . These elements are the 4500 watt rating . I am glad I saw this video because I am old school and remember we had only threads we had to use liquid Teflon on the threads to seal . I’m glad it’s a rubber type gasket/o-ring .
Great tip! Thanks for sharing!
Thank you - older mom and this was very helpful.
Anytime thanks for watching the channel!
Glad it was helpful!
you made it look alot easier than my first time of doing this. You actually know what you are doing here, I did not at the time lol. very good info here thanks for sharing!! Thumbs up from us
Well I appreciate the thumbs up but I’m no plumber just trying to give a few pointers for people who never done it. I don’t think u want to know about my first time 🤣🤣🤣 alot worse than this hahaha thanks for the thumbs up guys!!!
@@frontwoodsfarmer2063 well you've done a fine job and it made us click the bell for your channel, so keep up the good work!
Thank you ❤️
Thanks a ton for this. You made it super easy for me this evening
Thank you for commenting and watching! So glad I could of helped!
Well done my man👍
Ty sir!
Shut off your cold and hot water to tank
Briefly open relief valve to release pressure
Now when you pull your element it will “chug” out at first but youll easily be able to put the new element in without waiting to drain the water down.
Nice! Thanks Kellen for the advice.
Yes. If the end goal is simply to replace element, and you are keeping the unit, there is no need to drain it. Let water cool a bit, no pressure, but close valves so water comes out very slow. Unless you are flushing, cleaning, or replacing unit, waste of time and messy to drain it. Pull element out..... Rather than hold buckets, quickly put new element in. If water is cool, no pressure, and valves closed it won't leak much.
I think that’s my problem, well water ! One of my elements might not be working, takes forever for the water to get hot. And I noticed a kinda bubbling noise when the heater pops on, I bet my elements have that buildup too. Well that’s what I’m doing tomorrow, good to see the job done before doing it
Thanks👍
great veido thanks for all the details especially about checking the electrical breaker is for the water heater
Your welcome thanks for commenting
Thanks for the video, easily explained and looks simple...great job 💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
Thanks for watching and commenting 💪
I learned a lot in this video thank you I will get a professional
Thanks for sharing your experience hope all goes well
If I’m getting hot water, but not hot water like I was before, what’s your recommended diagnosis?
Could it be a thermostat? Or most likely heating elements?
There are ways to test everything with voltmeters but I’m unsure how to do this you can’t really go by what it’s doing always sometimes I’ve found on that situation it’s a gamble between the two so I replace everything.
Lol dudes says he’s making the video for single moms but then says make sure your a professional! Comedy, thanks for helping me fix my water heater
The things you have to say in these videos anymore to avoid getting sued is priceless… your welcome lol
Check out my new video I think you’ll like it lol ruclips.net/video/C6ova8lbElw/видео.html
And I had to get the one with frozen in place elements, got the cheap socket from Lowes with a 20" screwdriver PB spray and couldn't budge it. Seen where a guy used a impact gun and it worked good,so I got a 38mm (which is 1 1/2" ) 6 point impact socket from auto parts store and used my 1/4" Dewalt with a 1/4" to 1/2" in adapter and back them right out and installed new one with a little never seize for next time. Had to take the bevel off the face of socket on a grinder first to get a better bite on element.
Thanks for letting us know all the sizes
Avoid the mess man and just replace the drain valve. Or use the one you have and if it doesn't shut off 100% screw a hose bib cap on it. All that water everywhere mixed with the 240v can definitely cause an issue.
Thanks for the tips
How old is your tank? Ours is tripping the breaker and we have yet to open it to see if it’s a bad element. However with our tank being 20 years old is it worth checking or should we just replace?
I would say that all comes down to your financial situation. I personally wouldn’t be against replacing at that age just be sure to research your brands before you go with one in particular sorry about getting back to you so late. I hope this helps thanks for watching!!!
Turn off the cold water , drain your hot water heater , it takes close to 1 hour, hook up your hose on the bottom,
Then shut off your power to the hot water heater before you do any electrical work
Remove your old elements up and down and the thermostats as well
The whole kit is around 35 dollars
After you finish , turn on your water and wait about 10 minutes to turn the breaker on
Good luck
Thank u much
The ole 'back of the hand' open circuit verification method! 😄
Works wonders lol
How do you know if it's the thermostat or heating element if no hot water? Or even just reset button??
If that valve gives you trouble do not get a new water heater. Get a full port ball valve. It will make it easier to flush the tank as well. It doesn’t make sense for them not to have them from factory.
That’s a great idea thanka
I used a socket with an Impact. It works really well.
Yes it does thanks for watching
This is what we ended up having to do! Today!
You are the FRICKEN MAN!!!! 😃 THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS VIDEO BRO!!! i know you know how much money you judt saved me being a dingle mom and unemployed i have to do constant maintenance in my home to ensure the life of everything we use daily . That includes the water heater. My bittom element isnt looking good at all. AT ALL!!! also the insulation is burnt and i dont want to put tget back on there. Can i judt get another piece and put it over it or is it like i got to sruff it up and around it and then drape it and put the cover back on? Its burnt and that scares me to death....
Thanks for watching and commenting!! That helps me wayyy more than u know i appreciate it 🙏 yeah with it being burnt I’d recommend calling a professional HOWEVER if it was me because only I can be responsible for myself 😂 sometimes haha I’d leave that small piece out and check make sure the wires aren’t burnt but I’d assume it’s from that bad element causing a ground issue I’d pop in a new element if it were me and be done leave the insulation out. I think that’s so impressive what your doing ❤️
@frontwoodsfarmer2063 yeah I already ripped it off and the wires seem to be ok it's just the actual metal. I tested it and it's exactly at the correct voltage and amp so thsts a huge relief 😅 and hell yeah dude your THE MAN!!! I haven't been able to find any videos about this particular electric hot water heater. It's actually amazing it lasted this long I just moved into this house and slowly been working my way from up stairs to down stairs redoing everything. It just hit me one day.... damn I bet nobody has ever even cleaned this hit water heater off let alone serviced it 😅 I think I caught it just In time tho. 😊 your amazing thanks again. BTW thanks for replying I usually NEVER get a reply or even a like so you serious made my day 😏
@nikkilovetheyardsale-again2608 that’s so awesome your the best! Well good luck if you need anymore how to videos lmk I can throw some out
Thank you for this video. Appreciate your work
Should I fill the tank first and check for leaks before reconnecting the wires in case I need to tighten the element further ?
That’s not a terrible idea again I’m no expert so that sounds like a much better idea! Thanks for commenting and your input.
Wait, always check and make sure the power is off with the back of your hand? Did I hear that correctly?
Absolutely never check with the front thanks for watching 😊
Is that what usually goes wrong on these units?
I recently lost all hot water
Hey man, I just wish you mentioned to people that when you drained from the top element orifice, all that water soaked the insulation and most likely the terminals at the lower element. 80% of the time, it's the lower element and if you have that much build up you will just keep replacing them. Not to mention the danger of shock and mold from moisture.😂
So you dont need to burp the tank afterwards. I mean after screwing in the elements I figured there would be a larger air bubble in it. I heard air bubbles will cause you problems and prevent your tank from filling full of water?
Good question in my situation I got the laundry tub right there I leave hot water open when filling. I should of put that in the video like I said I’m not expert lol thanks for commenting hope everyone sees it I know it should be up top now 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻
To be clear, leave a faucet open on hot water when filling the water heater. When the water heater fills, water will come out of the faucet and you know that the water heater is filled up
Good advice 👍
Quick question. I have the exact tank and everything. The issue I’m having is when we use to much hot water the tank trips it’s safety switch. Not the main power breaker in the panel box. I’m saying it has a reset button I guess part of the thermostat by the top element. Would that mean I have a bad element?
I’m assuming something would be grounding out check all your wires etc before you change out the element rule out all the easy fixes
I'm having the same issue. Did you ever figure out the cause of the problem?
awsome
Thank u
Very informative & wow... So nice to watch.
Thanks for the support Steve glad I could help you!
I just made another video check it out ruclips.net/video/C6ova8lbElw/видео.html I think you’d like it it’s diy related
@@frontwoodsfarmer2063 Video was descriptive & yum yum.. So nice to watch. Pittsburgh accent. A local? Lol 😂
Thank you for watching!
Open elements will nit cause circuit breaker tripping. Just will not heat up...
Thanks great video
I tried thanks for watching
Thanks, this was helpful.
Thanks for commenting
Can you check if they are good by checking continuity?
@@TheDrblu I’m thinking so
What happens if you get your insulation really wet. Should you let it dry out?
Yes
Hi. Thanks for responding. I replaced both heating elements. It did not heat. Then I reset the red button and it immediately started working. I'm amazed that it was still working with the heating elements so caked with mineral deposits. But maybe that's why it triggered it and it stopped heating. So now I have hot water. I just need to replace the anode tube, which I'm sure will be much more difficult.
Thanks for your help
Thanks for commenting on the video I’m sure there are better ways to do this but that wasn’t my goal it was to help people the best I can!
So I was in the process of draining mine before replacing upper element. Was a dummy and didn’t wait long enough and spilled water everywhere. There’s like a whole pool inside the plastic liner of water heater. Any ideas on getting all that out lol thanks !
Oh man I want to laugh but can’t I been there I really feel for ya! Your talking about inside your tank or that catch pan underneath? I’m not quite sure 100% what u mean? Thanks!
Yeah lol inside the metal shield of the tank just below the access panel there’s like plastic wrap and now I just have a huge pool of water hanging out there lol saw how you replace yours in the video and figured maybe you had an idea. Either gonna try to get a shop vac in there or poke a hole lol I’m not sure yet
@@jaredrobinson3553 sorry I got tied up ya I don’t know I never had that happen to me yet not bad ideas you have but I can’t guide u there I never been through it
So my son in law suggested to me that my element might be the issue on my tank as i dont have enough hot water, not near as much as i used to have and its not as hot as it used to be. I cant even fill my tub with hot water right now which i use for my arthritis to relax my body when its acting out. So this video will give me the chance to see if hes right. I hope he is as this will be easier than replacing the entire tank.
Possibly your thermostat could possibly be going as well maybe try adjusting it first? Thanks for watching
@FrontWoodsFarmer hey jus an fyi when you hear that gurgling sound when first taking the element out it's like a straw sucking air if you dont dilly dally you have about 15 seconds pull it out and have the other replacement ready to go and put it in be fore the bubble releases and there you go it's in no mess no with minimal loss of water just so you know for the next time that's how plumbers do it
I appreciate that information if I go to change mine next time I’ll do that most of the time I drain it all so I can get some of that calcium out of the bottom unfortunately still got the old well water 😂
My tank wasn't draining from the drain at the bottom so i had to do this. But water got everywhere, how long do I wait to plug in the electrical parts again?
As long as it takes to dry up don’t want to risk getting electrocuted… ya them drains never work properly or never stop leaking
@@frontwoodsfarmer2063 I'll make sure to wait and watch!! Thank you!!
@@awickedprincess thank u 😊 hopefully I got a new subscriber
I have a similar issue with debris in the bottom of the heater. I plan to shut main water valve then pressurize the hot water side with air to force the water out through the cold water dip tube that goes to the bottom of the water heater. I can then open a cold water sink valve and drain the tank that way.
I never thought of that I like it
Look at the wattage rating of your hot water tank, usually written on the side of the tank, before purchasing an element because the total wattage should not exceed the manufacturer recommended load
That’s very good information to know thank you
Oh thanks 👍👍 this is excellent tutorial
Thanks for watching! Appreciate the comment
Would a bad heating element cause your circuit breaker to trip?
Yes it absolutely can
If the hose will not drain, use a siphon to drain it. Put it in through the top element. A 50 gallon tank should take under 20 min to drain.
Thanks for adding that to the comment section like I said def not an expert here always a better way to do something
@@frontwoodsfarmer2063 i also learned to ensure it goes all the way down, as... the shop vac got a heck of a work out when taking out the bottom element 🤣
@@WreckerRC yeah there was alot of cleanup showed off camera 😂 special footage haha
My water only gets Luke warm for only 5 minutes then back to cold…Would that be a element or replacement of the entire water heater🤔
If it were me I’d try the elements over a new tank because of cost but I’m not sure.
What if I'm not a pro electrician but I don't have the money to get a new water heater?
Mine started flooding out from the plate you took off and was working in would that be the same problem?
So sounds like maybe it’s the seal on your element?
RECOMENDATION,5:47 to prevent the water run around the tank,
1shut off the gate valve
2conect a garden hose to the drain valve and wait until half of tank is empty
3remove the heating element and you'll see that you don't need a bucket 👍
3
You may have missed his comment about the risk of draining the tank if your water has a lot of sediment or other particulates. There is a chance that the valve for the drain may not seat correctly when you finish changing the element(s) and you've now created another repair for yourself.
@@billconners6248 there's no risk when you let the water drain,is more risk when you let water running by the wires,it can cause a short, simple as that
Thanks for all the comments and recommendations your really helping the channel! People come to the comments to learn also thanks again
thank you for sharing
Thanks for watching!
Gas water heaters don’t have thermostats. A hybrid might but gas heats from combustion.
Thanks for sharing this is an electric water tank however that’s good information 👍
hey man thanks for doing this. is there a correct or incorrect order of attaching the wires to the element? I didnt get a pic before hand and have it working again but i have to wonder.... is one positive and the other negative? Talking about the two connections on the upper element? Im guessing either way of re attaching those two wires cant be wrong. however i do see two markings on the bottom.
PS i know that accent anywhere and you CANT be far from southwest Pennsy. bet im within 300 miles :D
Edit2: Oh snap man i think i missed it the first time. Here 6:45
Lol all good! I hope this helped u
@@frontwoodsfarmer2063 of course man thumbs up
Very nice ty ty for all the safety tips also good thinking
Thank u for commenting! I’m glad it worked out for you. Are you on a well system or city water?
@@frontwoodsfarmer2063 well water. But needed to be replaced the whole water heater was shot but I loved ur video when the heating elements need to be changed I’m gonna try it. The water heater was 11yo
Oh ok I gotcha ya things like that don’t last quite like they used to we have a refrigerator that went through two compressors since 2016 it was almost $4,000 we got it 75% off for a going out of business sale but I’m just thinking what if someone paid the full price had to go through all that what a shame. I’m happy you liked the video 😊
What would happen if I put a 5500w240v instead of the 4500?
I don’t have a clue lol
Awesome thanks
Thank u glad I could help
thanks for sharing
Anytime thanks for watching!
Take off cover just loosen lower screw then remove upper screw let cover slide down that way it’s easier to install cover
Thank u I will try that next time
What size socket?
Open elements will nit cause circuit breaker tripping. Just will not heat up...or will take a while before you get a hot shower with dual element heater. In the end, you still didn't say what caused problem. ??? Was it the element? Thermostat?
That’s strange that you say that I’m not saying your incorrect but the multiple generation plumbing store I got the information said they will cause the tripping. I changed mine and now all good no tripping problem. I hope this helps thanks for watching!
Great job thanks!!
Thanks for watching! Please subscribe 😊
I did that same thing because before I changed them my water would only be hot for like 2 minutes or so,then I bought elements and changed them now my water don't get hot at all any ideas
How much crud was in your tank? You on a well? Is there power to your elements?
Yes there is power,when I changed the elements it worked for 3 weeks but now it doesn't even get hot or anything im thinking maybe the dip tube? And there was alot of debris in my tank idk how to get it out
Yes could be it’s not easy to get out and a real pain beat way is to get a filtration system to prevent it but that can cost 💲 alot
@@WatchOut_I did u check the thermostats
If your valve dont close n has small drip, just put a copper cap on it
Good idea 👍
There’s a drain spigot on the bottom 🤦♂️. Is that a whirlpool? Lots of problems with those over the years.
Yeah it gets plugged up and stuck open 😂 so that’s why I say not the way u do it haha I have my special way of doing things around here .... it’s a rheem 10 years old but I agree the whirlpools are whirl poos 💩 thanks for watching!
@@frontwoodsfarmer2063 I had a Rheem tank that lasted 13 years nothing wrong with it and put in a Rheem tankless. I watched RUclips videos on how to do it. Now I’m interested in them. Something to occupy my time during the cold weather and pandemic.
@@Jimbobo162 curious what that ran you money wise? I wanted to look into them
@@frontwoodsfarmer2063 I bought the unit on eBay for 300 installed it myself and paid 400 for an electrician to do the electric. It will only run one shower or faucet but it’s only used for showers and dishes. You will want to get your water temperature to make sure you have the right temperature rise you need.
I used to work for a plumbing outfit and hardware store I’m familiar with the water heaters and power vents etc but the new tankless I never dealt with at all
You are a good guy.
I do my very best thank you for the kind words and subscribing it’s why I do it
1-1/2” is approximately 38mm
Thank you
No need to drain, have your new one ready to push in and screw tight.
Good point I drain mine cause of all the calcium in my water
But you never showed the second element? was it not bad?
Not as bad no
Thanks buddy
Thanks for watching Billy
Thank you
Thanks for commenting
Is the straight or bent different
Not too sure on that
Basically OK But Tank not electrically wired to code and TPRV not properly plumbed to code Both Safety issues
Thanks for the information good suggestion
Let me guess. Southwest PA?
Close
So he keeps saying how easy it is (which it is...) and then he says, "i don't recommend doing this unless you're a professional electrician". That's some major league CYA going on.
😂 very sad I gotta say that but I do haha thanks for commenting
Water tank leaking there what's could be the problem.
Hahahaha right 😂
Why not drain the water heater first?
In past experiences when I’ve done this on old tanks the drain can not fully close leaving you helpless
Back of your hand to make sure the power is off?🤔🤔🤔
Never mentioned turning the water off
Good call
Only problem I have is the FIRST thing to mention is to SHITCAN the water heater if it is old. A tank that rusts through and bursts is not worth fixing even if it will last a few more years.
my area is leaking water in it why ?
Not too sure where is it
Looks easy unless the element won't unscrew. Mine wouldn't budge, even when I used an extended breaker bar. I tried using WD40 to loosen the tight bond in the treads, but no luck.
That’s alot of force surprised it didn’t break free maybe tap the nut area easy?
WD40 isn't for that. try PB blaster or similar next time. or heat always works
@@jsngallery thanks for the tip! And for watching 👍
If it's that gunked up, generally you need a new tank. But good luck
@@danielmorse4213 Yep, I had to buy a new tank.
Put a 3/4 ball valve for a drain
Great idea thanks for commenting
Didn't explain how to know if element is bad or not. Easy test with meter set to ohms or continuity test. Otherwise, nice video.
Thanks for the input I’m no expert glad you commented that piece of advice
Those poor guns lol
Drums of dry rid 😂
A clothes hanger or solder stabbing the drain valve will help it come through with buildup but really it’s whatever’s best for your situation
Great tip to add thank you for the input I started doing that some it does work great 👍
ruclips.net/video/C6ova8lbElw/видео.html check out this new video I put up yesterday I think you’ll like it too and can probably give some advice it’s a diy also
Fill tank back up before turning tank on or u will burn elements out
Very good point
What if you can't get the top one out
I just saw this message! I wouldn’t know what you could or couldn’t do I think due to insulation of the tank I would not heat anything
buy a new water heater
Thanks for all the great input 👍 if able to buy new you can’t go wrong 😃
Are you from Pittsburgh ? Lol
Close by yes! Lol where ya from
@@frontwoodsfarmer2063 I am from Pittsburgh, and I could tell from the piitsburghese words lol
👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽💪🏽🙌🏽
Thanks Ritchie!!
Doesn't all that water damage electrical components?
That’s why I always state I’m not professional lol but in my case I do dry everywhere as good as I can when I’m done.
Harganya berapa
U don’t say?