No, most of what you said came back to your lack of knowledge of Music theory. I started DJ'ing on Vinyl in the 80's on very basic equipment. I did a Diploma of Electronic Music Production and so I approach DJ'ing from a Production basis. I am also learning Piano and I play live instruments in my set. Rekord box is buggy, and I use Traktor with a very similar Rig to DJ Rebekah and I add in an Ableton Push II. Keep learning Music theory as that is the only way forward. Ditch Rekord box and Pioneer equipment, swap to Traktor Pro 4 get a Z1 and upgrade your life.
Staying within a BPM range is another trap. I've recently been mixing (mashing up) 70BPM hiphop with 140BPM (70X2) hard groove. Also heavily speeding up 128-130BPM techno (non-vocals) to 140+ hard groove tracks which sound really good.
In a studio mix, you have the luxury of time to plan every detail, experiment, and ensure everything aligns harmonically. But live, it’s all about reading the room and capturing the moment. Sometimes, the best transitions aren’t the ones that are technically perfect but the ones that make the crowd feel you.
I started as a vinyl DJ in the late 80's, I always used my ears and acquired song knowledge to blend the right tracks together. More importantly, I fed the crowd and their reactions fed me. I like contrast in my sets and the relativity that darker makes the light in a set look brighter, lighter makes the dark in a set look darker. If you do a dark set, throw a little light in and visa-versa. Add intro dropdown's to stop the crowd, to retuning their mind, body and ears to 'really dig' the next track dropped. I like my sets to be a soundscape journey of different colours, to provoke reaction, not a soundscape of mono colour where little changes and every song sounds too much the same. In short, if people dig it, do it. Experiment, be creative, learn from mistakes and most importantly, find your own identity as a DJ with adventurous creativity, to help you stand out as a DJ. Very interesting video, key mixing is important but there are many other factors that should be considered when deciding the next tune! Thanks, you know your stuff. Respect, peace and love.
I had exactly the same thoughts when I saw the video. I also started with vinyl. For me it was important to select records in this way when I was listening to them in the record store. Nowadays it feels different. I can still tell which track goes with which when I pull a record off the shelf, but I have less of a connection to the mass digital collections that have built up over the last few years.
Best video of the inter webs. One thing I noticed is the same as the first part of the video... When I focused on key, I wound up stuck in those rabbit holes too of the same tracks. I started DJing in the late 80's. I knew nothing of key, but I knew what sounded good together, and I knew the tracks that even if the same BPM, sounded like a cat fight. There are mixes I do to this date after 30 years that sound amazing together, which according to Camelot are a no go. So I am a big believer in trust your ears. Key detection can be a tool to confirm tracks that could go well together, but don't think a mix won't work because the Camelot wheel says no, trust your ears.
As a dj who started on vinyl and still plays vinyl. Never had key detection then and it was never a problem. Like you I have this turned off. In fact never turned it on and never will.
If you use all 4 rules, it become much more easy. +/- 2 stay in same letter +7 stay in same letter -3 change letter +/- 1 both letters Up the wheel for uplifting and down for more deep dramatic feeling I always pick my song first, then put them quick together, like my ear think it will work, then go in rekordbox and rework it with camelot. Works evertime for smoothe harmonic beatmixing
That "long and winding journey" of marching through the camelot wheel can really pay off. In fact, I started out mixing that way. I found that both myself and the crowd didn't enjoy sets where I stuck to the same key for a while. One of the best times was when I had a goal song in mind and ran through a broad range of key and bpm to get to it. They really wanted me to keep playing.
Something to add here is that changing key (a.k.a. modulation) is a technique that's used by songwriters to raise the energy level, and likewise it can be an effective tool for raising the energy level of a crowd and making your next track more impactful. The most energy raising modulations are often the ones that are slightly further away from each other on the camelot wheel. Also, melodies don't typically use all of the notes of a key, sometimes only 1 or 2 different notes, which means they might fit in with many more keys than you'd expect without being dissonant. Mixing without looking at key, especially at home, leads to more discovery, and deliberately trying to change the key will raise your set to new heights.
Ive kinda updated my key mixing method. I've found that instead of just left/right and up/down, you can also jump to the other side of the circle, and it still works well usually. Maybe Im crazy, idk
I find jumping by 2s or jumping to the other side of the wheel are both great options for the same reason; when songwriters use intentional key changes, this is often where they go. Complimentary colours. Also worth noting that your intuition and knowledge of a song is always better than any automatic key detection; it won't pick up on options for wordplay, if there are unexpected chord or key changes in a track, or sometimes songs in totally different overall keys have moments where their chord choices line up really nicely then split away again.
I recently watched a video by David Bruce called “How to Write a Great Melody (Over Chords)”. One of my main takeaways from the video was the idea that “tension is just one step away from release”. Many great songs are composed with notes that aren’t strict to the key. This made me rethink my misconceptions about dissonance and the idea of tension.
Honestly the best thing you can do once you start looking into this idea is listening to some of the old jazz greats, but ESPECIALLY listening to Jacob Collier interviews. I know a lot of people don't like his style of writing music, and you'd never DJ with his stuff, but he has the deepest, sincerest, most genuine understanding of using notes out of the key to create genuine movement and creating context to turn ugly notes into beautiful ones. Learning keys is interesting, but it gets so simple and intuitive when you hear him do his thing and explain his process. Keys are NOT rules, just suggestions and blueprints for safe, reliable melodic sensibilty. There's so much space for magic and freedom and awesome sounds outside of it.
Finally.. logic prevails. I kept saying key mixing is way too overrated. Back in the days before computers djs didn't care about this. I keep seeing djs talking about mixed in key as the greatest thing and personally i was never impressed cause i did notice how keys on the same track would read differently in different programs
Pretty new to DJing, but things I listen for are: similar bassline patterns; similar melodies; acid lines - can jump between genres easily if they have acid e.g. techno, hard house, breaks; similar vocal samples - had two tracks that said "Go!". I tried a bit of key mixing and it works sometimes, but it also made some transitions quite boring and made everything sound the same, even if the tracks individually were good.
Harmonic mixing is just another tool in the belt. But absolutely the biggest pitfall is using just harmonic mixing for smooth transitions means you're getting the same vibe for half an hour. It's great when you want two songs to sound like best friends, but it gets boring and stale real quickly. DJing magic happens when you catch the crowd off guard and introduce something unexpected.
Very valid points Chris, I had a phase where O was focusing too much on key mixing and added trax to a set purely because they were in the adjacent key, instead of listening if the track fitted the overall direction of the set. Fortunately I stopped doing that. Nowadays I do pay attention to in key mixing but only on a lower priority. It is really great when the new track fits well, builds/decreases energy and is in key.
You might try fuzzy key mixing, that is key shifting your music up or down by 1-2 semitones. In VDJ the default key match display also includes fuzzy matches in a different tone, and you can customize it to a specific key distance. That way you can choose what you want to do with many more tracks. Digital DJ tips has an article on this.
All valid points & well made. I kinda like harmonics but agree that they can trap you. It's a fun exercise to hide the key column & just mix things key blind.
Great video! Thanks for the tips. "Never Trust Rekordbox" should be "Never Trust the Algorithm" whether it's Rekorbox, Serato, or VDJ. Trust the crowd and your ears. Know your music.
I've reached a level where I know which next track would go well and in the end I look at it and those tracks are in the same key. I'm Beginner DJ 1year
Good content as always m8! Great topic too, I haven't abandoned mixing in key but I'm now def more open to matching energy and vibe while using stem separation in a pinch if melodies don't get along..
its not a problem if you plan your set in advance. like that you can end up playing all of the tracks you wanted to play without never getting to the later keys you were going towards. now I know free forming a set and just playing on the fly not knowing where the mix will go is fun in its own way I agree but you can't really do that without taking a risk/drawback somewhere. and you can't really mix out of key if you're mixing with a ton of harmonically driven tunes like liquid Drum & Bass for example as those are very dependent on key so its a case by case basis. I mix in key to prevent any doubles that sound off key and just horrible. My only solution now has been to plan the set in advance and that kind of lets me be a bit more flexible with my transitions as I've tested them beforehand to make sure they work so I know it won't go wrong but you get the drawback of not being surprised or staying to a specific route the whole mix so it's a double edged sword. I haven't been DJing in a while though since my motivation to DJ has kind of dropped off as I've DJ'd pretty much everything I've wanted to live so there's not really much gratification for me nowadays unless I'm DJing for the the sole purpose of scratching that DJ itch. All in all its a hard problem to solve, to mix in key or not to mix in key. Both have their upsides and downsides. also hell yea Ed Rush & Optical - Kerbkrawler, banger Techstep track :)
I use mix in key a lot because I'm normally making recordings off tracks I've never mixed before. Yes, I listened to the tracks previously, but my recordings are first off mixes, and they go straight to publishing on mixcloud. Liquid dnb and melodic house I find key very useful. I still find tracks that go together by listening, but without mixing them, you never really know. I have been mixing since the 90's, I started on belt drives but only recently started with dvr, so it's been a big change, but I love being able to mix different tracks all the time.
Circle of fifths is helpful when creating music on your own. But for DJ mixes I feel like it was more of a marketing thing, because you're right, so many mixes start to sound samey and lose excitement. I'll never forget when Adam Freeland dropped RATM in the middle of his breaks sets, it was crazy and blew everyones mind at the time because nobody was expecting it and it sounded oh so good.
when i used vinyl i mainly mixed by bpm so my set could potentially go anywhere as i never bothered about harmonics until my dj software started showing key info.I also used to change things up by using gaps or shortening a track via mixing so it would end and i would could go somewhere else.Because i just had my vinyl and my ear i think my sets were a bit more lively and i set my crates with room for changes of style ,mood ,bpm and key..Its nice to have a whole bunch of tunes that i know i can mix but it can potentially get you into a creative rut .I used to set up my crates so i could jump to another section if i needed to.I am looking at doing that with my digital set up as well.
me and my friends started DJing since mid 80s, never had what so-called mix in keys. We just picked whatever we wanted to mix next, no bother with the keys. You are absolutely right, we used to mix outro with intro, there s no key with the beats without any instruments. Keys are only matter when you do mashup like blend in a acapella with another song with instrumental.
Funny enough, I just had a gig where I only had 15 min left and I was trying to get to one of my favorites but the key was too far off. Kinda quick jumped through some tracks in between to get there, instead of getting creative and trying to mix it in right away. Despite me being already aware fair a few tracks don't mix well irrespective of what mixed in key analyzed. Got so used to mixing in key that I limited myself. I used to actually not care that much about the displayed key and just mixed by ear. Got to reliant. Great points mate.
Good video. Coming from the days of vinyl and a strong penchant for mixing massive BPM (beat matched) changes - it was tough knowing just how each track would sound harmonically, given the degree to which the tempo was altered… Took me years to give in to the cheat element of key detection when the digital age rolled in. Stubborn I am 😊 I try mixing across the circle - direct: 3a - 9a 7b - 2b 11b - 5b and so on *Not a rule. But a good place to aim if you are looking to switch out from the traffic light steps 👍 Depending on the genre, quite often the part of the track that brings dissonance to the harmony only begins later in the song.
i went through a key mixing phase. eventually I decided to just start creating edits, as sometimes I would want to get a little too confident live mixing stuff that wasn't in key. I think polyrhythmic mixing became more of my thing, and remains to be so today. thanks for the vid. brought me back to a stretch of time in my life.
The thing with dnb (and sub heavy music in general, like dubstep/trap) is that most of it is produce in the same key, just because that's where the sub is the more effective, so even if you play without looking at the key you can end up with a mix full of 4A (with some exception of course). With key mixing, what I tend to do now, is to just use it as an information, like if a mix 2 track that aren't in key, it will not stop me from doing it if I think it's the right choice, but the key information will just tell me that I need to be carefull with that (kind of like I would put "vocal" or "bpm change" in the track info, so I know what to expect but don't use it as a "do or don't" info :)
I learnt with vinyl so key wasn't an issue, just used my ears for what tracks sound good mixed together. Also Technics 1200's don't have master tempo like cdj's so you are going to change pitch/tone when matching BPM's anyway. I have tried mixing in key but prefer not to as my mixes sound better to me without - more human. I find that the majority of the tracks I like & buy without looking at key tend to be within range of each other anyway. Knowing your tunes & use your human instincts/skill as much as possible is the best advice I can give. Dj tech has evolved massively to the point where it can track select & mix automatically but the more of these tools you use, the more your mixes will sound generic & boring.
Problem 6 : if you cut bass from a track (for example, on a track with vocal that you just want to use as an acapella) you definitely change the key of it. Nice video by the way. DJ community needed to hear this !
Even though I used Mixed In Key, I still verify all my tracks one by one by ear and a piano app. I’m usually playing a musical instrument with my sets.
I just realized this the other day. I love harmonic mixing and it's the key to mini-mashups, but i took note of my tendency to browse for numbers rather than vibe. i'm considering hiding this info for a bit. The same goes for BPMs - i am learning creative ways to make huge BPM jumps. thanks for speaking to exactly where i'm at
Hi man, I recently started performing as a dnb DJ at small parties and from the moment I bought my controller, I ignored the keys rekordbox gave me because they did not feel correct to me. Some friends told me to use keymixing but I decided to just play what sounded nice and after seeing your video, I am glad I did! Thanks for making this video, it gives me some more reasons not to start doing it too much ;)
Learning basic DJ skills have taught me (through listening to their work more closely) that most club DJ's completely ignore most of the "rules". Some of the most popular DJ's at the local clubs simply play songs that people want to hear, transitions be damned. Like half of their sets are absolute train wrecks but the reality is, especially when you get past 11:PM and the drinks are set in, no one cares. So the rare chances I get to play, I simply do the best I can with song selection and get the "vibe" right, but don't worry too much about anything else.
Your biggest problem is that you let software suggest what to play. You gotta know your tunes and play what you as a dj like, and think will go well at that moment. It's the crowd that dictates your selections. I've played every key in my collection. And I know every track in my collection, and what tracks that will mix into them. Listen to the music, feel the crowd, and NEVER play a track you don't know. I mix by ear, mostly harmonically, and I have to say MIK is the most accurate software out there. I use it to write tags to my music the way I like it tagged. Also, I would suggest looking into 'fuzzy mixing', a system where you can mix any two tracks, and never have to worry about not being able to play any track you want.
I use Traktor and its key suggestions. I too sometimes get trapped by choosing songs by key. But even if the two songs have the same key, they might not have the same energy, so sometimes I end up choosing one that has some sort of continuity in energy level, to keep things moving in a nice flow. Also, there are times when a sudden change in feel is good, it might take energy to a new level or take you out of monotony.
When I was in Brno this summer, I jammed on saxophone with a house DJ who used the Camelot key wheel. Trouble is, the system is lousy for modes other than major or Aeolian minor. A track in G Dorian, for example, might be listed as F major! This created a huge source of confusion for me, and I ended up just having to do everything by ear.
Steps for DJing in the late 80s and 90s.. 1. Buy a Vinyl 2. Buy Masking Tape 3. Stick a bar of tape at the top of the cover of the vinyl 4. Write the title on the masking tape 5. Set the pitch at 0 and count the bpm for 60 seconds 6. Redo step 5 for 30 seconds and multiply by 2 to confirm bpm 7. Redo step 5 and 6 until confirmation of the bpm 8. Write the bpm on the masking tape 9. Get all the songs with similar bpm 10. Try each of them with the new vinyl you just bought 11. Know wich one fits with it 12. Repeat step 9, 10 & 11 over and over Key wasn't a thing since the beginnings and won't ever be a burden for DJs as long as DJs are Djs. Understanding is a plus, but not a necessity!
I learnt to mix on vinyl years ago and therefore practice what goes with what rather than going by key, which was a new concept to me when I started with Rekordbox. Helpful to use it but I don't rely on it and am not bound by it.
omg - this..... I never tried to mix "in key" but my ears and classical background have always allowed me to avoid horrible clashes. That camelot wheel thing.....I did sort by key and give it a go. Hit and miss is all I can say. Seriously limiting. (imagine trying to do that with Vinyl...you'd need thousands of records to be able to stick to "in key" mixes) There's complimentary progression through tunes without trying to stick to that "rule"....and then infinite possibilities vs only a handful of orders you can play the tunes in. And I do understand....the key is waaay more important in some genres. For what I do though.....complimentary clashes are good.
Profound statement. Is the set playing you or you playing the set. I’ve been djaying for over 40 years and have found myself trapped in the Camelot circle. I listened to older mixes before Camelot and they still have the energy and vibe. So what you know, feel and hear
You really need to be using Mixed in Key (MIK). Like you said, Rekordbox sometimes gets its key analysis wrong. MIK is very fast at analyzing key and is very accurate from experience. It also had a built in virtual piano allowing you to validate the key detection. MIK adds its detected key to the metadata of the track (into the comments field) allowing you to compare between MIK and rekordbox. Where there is a mismatch I then use the virtual piano as a check and balance. I would estimate from my whole 1000 track collection rekordbox gets the key right about 80-90% of the time and MIK just a handful of times. The SW is also very quick to create playlists allowing you to easily filter you entire collection by energy, BPM, key etc. I'm definitely guilty of being guided by the Camelot system when creating playlists and use your advice to play about with some more more unconventional key shifts. Great Video as usual. Salzburg looks beautiful.
You have to challenge yourself to mix outside your comfort zone. I never stay in a key more than three to four songs, the audience can get bored of that and it starts to "all sound the same." I introduce the key, drop one or two bangers in it then transition out to the new key, it's how you keep the journey moving and the energy flowing. Sometimes, if I really want to "turn it up," I'll switch up key every track; be careful though the energy can rise quickly.......
Hey Chris, never played by Camelot, I use it for mashup, but live never as it was one of my first law, Never play more then 2 or 3 time the same mix, hard but has success (still have) and I had this suspicious, thanks for confirming
After so many tracks in a "compatible key" I deliberately pick a track in a completely different key and mix it if it works. That helps as well if you do it intentionally.
The key analyzer in rekordbox gets it right most of the time. But I felt stupid once I realised how often tracks are mislabeled. I do actually use a piano when I suspect a key is wrong. Or when away from home I will use a piano app. Maybe 5-10% of tracks are labeled wrong, but over a library that is a lot of songs. I used to rely so much on the chamelot wheel that when I wanted to play a track in 7a from 4a I would actually play 2 songs in between I did not actually plan to play just for the sake of mixing in key..
My sets I just sort by key and play thru. I usually just buy tunes and play the set 60-100 tunes for 2hr set. Dont ever practice and the sounds usually work out great, no issues.
Back in the Day a huge amount of "blends" were just a quick Bar and then in, a hell of a lot of it was a simple cut into the next track at the end of a phrase/chorus ect. Key Mixing is good sometimes sure and with Stems if your trying to layer 2 melodies together but even then if your just using the Drums/Percussion from the second track even then it matters very little. Mashups Key mixing for sure, some long drawn out Vibey Progressive House layering, sure, sounds great but more just find a way to throw the right on for now, fuck Key imho :)
For a long time, I put together my tracks the old-fashioned way, by ear. But then I got carried away with this function and only used it. I had the same experience as you. I think I will deactivate this function again.
@ReallyChrisM When I selected my tracks by ear, this naturally took longer. With the tone type recognition function, I save time, but I'm always trapped in this loop.
Key mixing is fine. There's just a whole lot more to the story. There's diatonic and non diatonic. Secondary dominants and borrowed chords which all play a key part. Never use a single musical element for anything involving music.
Most ppl that don't DJ or study music cant even tell if its mixed in key anyway,in fact most DJs probably can't tell the difference without the software themselves. 🤣
I go by the rhythms of the track each track dictate the rest of the mix if i start with afro house i will continue with that rhythm into tech house or melodic house to keep the same rhythm
@@ReallyChrisM I'd been using it for about 8 years. One day, I was just playing around and I was playing a track and I just heard another track in my head that I felt that it would go well with the song I was playing and so, since I was at home, I just played it and it sounded amazing and when I tried to figure out why, I discovered that it was all wrong as it pertains to 'rules' . I don't have perfect pitch or anything like that, but sometimes I just hear tracks in my head that I know will work and so I play them. Also, you can transpose keys in most software and even if the song doesn't work -- you can make it work. I have also learned to look at songs for their musical phrases. You can use a loop from one song, from a completely different genre, key and bpm and use it as raw material to set a groove. Also with stems and good EQ technique you can even remove the dissonant components of a track and use everything else about it to create new and exciting mixes and mashups. Harmonic Mixing is just an idea. Maybe it's an idea that should be reserved for emergencies, like when you need a track fast but with today's powerful DJ software you can bend a track into whatever you want and you should if for nothing more than to frustrate the train spotters and frustrating the copyright detection algorithms .
I marked every note of every chord, including the seventh, of a note. There are eight of twelve notes. You have two out of three chance of getting it right. Super position/harmony. I have made other djs angry, once on WLTL and once in San Tropez, for keeping the tracks in the mix more than one at a time. I thought that's why you use four decks. It was in 2002ish. Master tempo was new. Turn off mastertempo. Trap, the genre, is when hiphop and house blend.
and now you found this out? Track selection always comes first. Use your ears or take ear training if you can't hear compability. Just avoid overlapping keys that don't match
I think you are missing a big part of this… and that’s how you are travelling around the wheel… it doesn’t need to be static or linear… if you know what notes are in a chord and what chords compliment each other you can bounce around the wheel without going in a straight line. And Recordbox is trash.
I played vinyl before computers took over. If it sounds good, they should be mixed. If it doesn't sound good don't mix them. (I had piano lessons growing up).
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Have you ever felt trapped by your DJ workflow? How did you break out of it?
sounds like you have an issue with rekordboxs interface more than than basic music theory my dude.
No, most of what you said came back to your lack of knowledge of Music theory.
I started DJ'ing on Vinyl in the 80's on very basic equipment.
I did a Diploma of Electronic Music Production and so I approach DJ'ing from a Production basis.
I am also learning Piano and I play live instruments in my set.
Rekord box is buggy, and I use Traktor with a very similar Rig to DJ Rebekah and I add in an Ableton Push II.
Keep learning Music theory as that is the only way forward.
Ditch Rekord box and Pioneer equipment, swap to Traktor Pro 4 get a Z1 and upgrade your life.
sambuca
Staying within a BPM range is another trap. I've recently been mixing (mashing up) 70BPM hiphop with 140BPM (70X2) hard groove. Also heavily speeding up 128-130BPM techno (non-vocals) to 140+ hard groove tracks which sound really good.
In a studio mix, you have the luxury of time to plan every detail, experiment, and ensure everything aligns harmonically. But live, it’s all about reading the room and capturing the moment. Sometimes, the best transitions aren’t the ones that are technically perfect but the ones that make the crowd feel you.
100 % agree! When I'm live DJing, I only care about which song I should play to rock the party crowd. Who care about you mix in harmony or not
I started as a vinyl DJ in the late 80's, I always used my ears and acquired song knowledge to blend the right tracks together. More importantly, I fed the crowd and their reactions fed me. I like contrast in my sets and the relativity that darker makes the light in a set look brighter, lighter makes the dark in a set look darker. If you do a dark set, throw a little light in and visa-versa. Add intro dropdown's to stop the crowd, to retuning their mind, body and ears to 'really dig' the next track dropped. I like my sets to be a soundscape journey of different colours, to provoke reaction, not a soundscape of mono colour where little changes and every song sounds too much the same. In short, if people dig it, do it. Experiment, be creative, learn from mistakes and most importantly, find your own identity as a DJ with adventurous creativity, to help you stand out as a DJ.
Very interesting video, key mixing is important but there are many other factors that should be considered when deciding the next tune!
Thanks, you know your stuff. Respect, peace and love.
Great tips!
I had exactly the same thoughts when I saw the video. I also started with vinyl. For me it was important to select records in this way when I was listening to them in the record store. Nowadays it feels different. I can still tell which track goes with which when I pull a record off the shelf, but I have less of a connection to the mass digital collections that have built up over the last few years.
I wonder how anxious people these days would get if they were thrown in the deep end with a box of vinyl to mix.
Humans are highly adaptable 💚 look how everyone took to cdj’s , look how we went from drums in caves to full orchestra’s 😎👊
every single video is full of great information. can't explain how far ive come becuase of your channel. thank you Chris
Appreciate that! 🙏
My man going outside first time since covid 🙏
I need another 4 years inside now after that
Best video of the inter webs. One thing I noticed is the same as the first part of the video... When I focused on key, I wound up stuck in those rabbit holes too of the same tracks. I started DJing in the late 80's. I knew nothing of key, but I knew what sounded good together, and I knew the tracks that even if the same BPM, sounded like a cat fight. There are mixes I do to this date after 30 years that sound amazing together, which according to Camelot are a no go. So I am a big believer in trust your ears. Key detection can be a tool to confirm tracks that could go well together, but don't think a mix won't work because the Camelot wheel says no, trust your ears.
Thanks for sharing! Funny thing is I learnt on vinyl so always went by ear, but unfortunately unlearnt it during the digital age
That’s why I decided to use stems in my DJ-sets! With only acapella or/and drums playing I can mix tracks that don’t match in key.
vocals do have a key but drums are a bit easier .Of course you can change the key of a track in software these days.
Stems are worst ! 😂
As a dj who started on vinyl and still plays vinyl. Never had key detection then and it was never a problem. Like you I have this turned off. In fact never turned it on and never will.
If you use all 4 rules, it become much more easy.
+/- 2 stay in same letter
+7 stay in same letter
-3 change letter
+/- 1 both letters
Up the wheel for uplifting and down for more deep dramatic feeling
I always pick my song first, then put them quick together, like my ear think it will work, then go in rekordbox and rework it with camelot. Works evertime for smoothe harmonic beatmixing
You don't have to just go up or down a step in Camelot. You can also go directly across the wheel to switch up the vibe (eg. 4A to 10A).
That "long and winding journey" of marching through the camelot wheel can really pay off. In fact, I started out mixing that way. I found that both myself and the crowd didn't enjoy sets where I stuck to the same key for a while. One of the best times was when I had a goal song in mind and ran through a broad range of key and bpm to get to it. They really wanted me to keep playing.
Something to add here is that changing key (a.k.a. modulation) is a technique that's used by songwriters to raise the energy level, and likewise it can be an effective tool for raising the energy level of a crowd and making your next track more impactful. The most energy raising modulations are often the ones that are slightly further away from each other on the camelot wheel.
Also, melodies don't typically use all of the notes of a key, sometimes only 1 or 2 different notes, which means they might fit in with many more keys than you'd expect without being dissonant.
Mixing without looking at key, especially at home, leads to more discovery, and deliberately trying to change the key will raise your set to new heights.
Great point about the melody! I'm going to start thinking about isolating them more in future to try new blends
Ive kinda updated my key mixing method. I've found that instead of just left/right and up/down, you can also jump to the other side of the circle, and it still works well usually. Maybe Im crazy, idk
I find jumping by 2s or jumping to the other side of the wheel are both great options for the same reason; when songwriters use intentional key changes, this is often where they go. Complimentary colours.
Also worth noting that your intuition and knowledge of a song is always better than any automatic key detection; it won't pick up on options for wordplay, if there are unexpected chord or key changes in a track, or sometimes songs in totally different overall keys have moments where their chord choices line up really nicely then split away again.
+-2, +-5 and +-8 can work. but here i am still tied to the wheel...
I recently watched a video by David Bruce called “How to Write a Great Melody (Over Chords)”. One of my main takeaways from the video was the idea that “tension is just one step away from release”. Many great songs are composed with notes that aren’t strict to the key. This made me rethink my misconceptions about dissonance and the idea of tension.
I’ll have to check that one out!
Honestly the best thing you can do once you start looking into this idea is listening to some of the old jazz greats, but ESPECIALLY listening to Jacob Collier interviews.
I know a lot of people don't like his style of writing music, and you'd never DJ with his stuff, but he has the deepest, sincerest, most genuine understanding of using notes out of the key to create genuine movement and creating context to turn ugly notes into beautiful ones. Learning keys is interesting, but it gets so simple and intuitive when you hear him do his thing and explain his process. Keys are NOT rules, just suggestions and blueprints for safe, reliable melodic sensibilty. There's so much space for magic and freedom and awesome sounds outside of it.
Finally.. logic prevails. I kept saying key mixing is way too overrated. Back in the days before computers djs didn't care about this. I keep seeing djs talking about mixed in key as the greatest thing and personally i was never impressed cause i did notice how keys on the same track would read differently in different programs
+2 for small energy lifts, -5 for big change up but still go well by creating tension.
Wasn’t it +7? 😅
@@JahP0lice I can't tell if you're joking or not- but in a circle of 12, +7 is the same as -5.
Yeah, wanted to write that comment. It's a nice way to "move" rapidly in tonality without too much disonnance
i resonate heavy with feeling like the set is playing you sometimes
Pretty new to DJing, but things I listen for are: similar bassline patterns; similar melodies; acid lines - can jump between genres easily if they have acid e.g. techno, hard house, breaks; similar vocal samples - had two tracks that said "Go!".
I tried a bit of key mixing and it works sometimes, but it also made some transitions quite boring and made everything sound the same, even if the tracks individually were good.
Harmonic mixing is just another tool in the belt. But absolutely the biggest pitfall is using just harmonic mixing for smooth transitions means you're getting the same vibe for half an hour. It's great when you want two songs to sound like best friends, but it gets boring and stale real quickly.
DJing magic happens when you catch the crowd off guard and introduce something unexpected.
Very valid points Chris,
I had a phase where O was focusing too much on key mixing and added trax to a set purely because they were in the adjacent key, instead of listening if the track fitted the overall direction of the set.
Fortunately I stopped doing that. Nowadays I do pay attention to in key mixing but only on a lower priority.
It is really great when the new track fits well, builds/decreases energy and is in key.
Absolutely love your narration. I got ADHD and have to listen to the same sentence 5 times sometimes; it helps if the voice is easy on the ears!
You might try fuzzy key mixing, that is key shifting your music up or down by 1-2 semitones. In VDJ the default key match display also includes fuzzy matches in a different tone, and you can customize it to a specific key distance. That way you can choose what you want to do with many more tracks. Digital DJ tips has an article on this.
All valid points & well made. I kinda like harmonics but agree that they can trap you. It's a fun exercise to hide the key column & just mix things key blind.
Great video! Thanks for the tips. "Never Trust Rekordbox" should be "Never Trust the Algorithm" whether it's Rekorbox, Serato, or VDJ. Trust the crowd and your ears. Know your music.
I've reached a level where I know which next track would go well and in the end I look at it and those tracks are in the same key. I'm Beginner DJ 1year
@@ranostanje2269 Good job! keep spinnin!
Good content as always m8! Great topic too, I haven't abandoned mixing in key but I'm now def more open to matching energy and vibe while using stem separation in a pinch if melodies don't get along..
Dude, that satisfying sneeze though!
🤧💨
its not a problem if you plan your set in advance. like that you can end up playing all of the tracks you wanted to play without never getting to the later keys you were going towards.
now I know free forming a set and just playing on the fly not knowing where the mix will go is fun in its own way I agree but you can't really do that without taking a risk/drawback somewhere.
and you can't really mix out of key if you're mixing with a ton of harmonically driven tunes like liquid Drum & Bass for example as those are very dependent on key so its a case by case basis.
I mix in key to prevent any doubles that sound off key and just horrible. My only solution now has been to plan the set in advance and that kind of lets me be a bit more flexible with my transitions as I've tested them beforehand to make sure they work so I know it won't go wrong but you get the drawback of not being surprised or staying to a specific route the whole mix so it's a double edged sword. I haven't been DJing in a while though since my motivation to DJ has kind of dropped off as I've DJ'd pretty much everything I've wanted to live so there's not really much gratification for me nowadays unless I'm DJing for the the sole purpose of scratching that DJ itch.
All in all its a hard problem to solve, to mix in key or not to mix in key. Both have their upsides and downsides.
also hell yea Ed Rush & Optical - Kerbkrawler, banger Techstep track :)
Yeah I've had that one on repeat after it popped back up again on a live mix I listened to (I forget who)
I use mix in key a lot because I'm normally making recordings off tracks I've never mixed before. Yes, I listened to the tracks previously, but my recordings are first off mixes, and they go straight to publishing on mixcloud. Liquid dnb and melodic house I find key very useful. I still find tracks that go together by listening, but without mixing them, you never really know.
I have been mixing since the 90's, I started on belt drives but only recently started with dvr, so it's been a big change, but I love being able to mix different tracks all the time.
@@djdusted6485 I use my friend that has perfect pitch hearing to tell me the keys of my tracks :)
Circle of fifths is helpful when creating music on your own. But for DJ mixes I feel like it was more of a marketing thing, because you're right, so many mixes start to sound samey and lose excitement. I'll never forget when Adam Freeland dropped RATM in the middle of his breaks sets, it was crazy and blew everyones mind at the time because nobody was expecting it and it sounded oh so good.
Ive been coming to this realization, and i started to think i might be going crazy but glad to see this and im not crazy for thinking this
when i used vinyl i mainly mixed by bpm so my set could potentially go anywhere as i never bothered about harmonics until my dj software started showing key info.I also used to change things up by using gaps or shortening a track via mixing so it would end and i would could go somewhere else.Because i just had my vinyl and my ear i think my sets were a bit more lively and i set my crates with room for changes of style ,mood ,bpm and key..Its nice to have a whole bunch of tunes that i know i can mix but it can potentially get you into a creative rut .I used to set up my crates so i could jump to another section if i needed to.I am looking at doing that with my digital set up as well.
I normally mix in key and if I wanna change up, I do a hard cut to a different key, it works every time
me and my friends started DJing since mid 80s, never had what so-called mix in keys. We just picked whatever we wanted to mix next, no bother with the keys. You are absolutely right, we used to mix outro with intro, there s no key with the beats without any instruments. Keys are only matter when you do mashup like blend in a acapella with another song with instrumental.
Wow, thanks for this vid. I felt EXACTLY like this and was getting bored mainly b/c I was being lazy. Time to push harder and further. Cheers mate!
The set plays me all the time lol....just a bit of humour! On a more serious note, the value of your videos is truly unmatched.
🙏
Funny enough, I just had a gig where I only had 15 min left and I was trying to get to one of my favorites but the key was too far off. Kinda quick jumped through some tracks in between to get there, instead of getting creative and trying to mix it in right away.
Despite me being already aware fair a few tracks don't mix well irrespective of what mixed in key analyzed.
Got so used to mixing in key that I limited myself. I used to actually not care that much about the displayed key and just mixed by ear. Got to reliant. Great points mate.
Good video.
Coming from the days of vinyl and a strong penchant for mixing massive BPM (beat matched) changes - it was tough knowing just how each track would sound harmonically, given the degree to which the tempo was altered…
Took me years to give in to the cheat element of key detection when the digital age rolled in. Stubborn I am 😊
I try mixing across the circle - direct:
3a - 9a
7b - 2b
11b - 5b and so on
*Not a rule. But a good place to aim if you are looking to switch out from the traffic light steps 👍
Depending on the genre, quite often the part of the track that brings dissonance to the harmony only begins later in the song.
i went through a key mixing phase. eventually I decided to just start creating edits, as sometimes I would want to get a little too confident live mixing stuff that wasn't in key. I think polyrhythmic mixing became more of my thing, and remains to be so today. thanks for the vid. brought me back to a stretch of time in my life.
The thing with dnb (and sub heavy music in general, like dubstep/trap) is that most of it is produce in the same key, just because that's where the sub is the more effective, so even if you play without looking at the key you can end up with a mix full of 4A (with some exception of course).
With key mixing, what I tend to do now, is to just use it as an information, like if a mix 2 track that aren't in key, it will not stop me from doing it if I think it's the right choice, but the key information will just tell me that I need to be carefull with that (kind of like I would put "vocal" or "bpm change" in the track info, so I know what to expect but don't use it as a "do or don't" info :)
Bang on video. Perfect timing, I've just came to the same realization.
I learnt with vinyl so key wasn't an issue, just used my ears for what tracks sound good mixed together. Also Technics 1200's don't have master tempo like cdj's so you are going to change pitch/tone when matching BPM's anyway. I have tried mixing in key but prefer not to as my mixes sound better to me without - more human. I find that the majority of the tracks I like & buy without looking at key tend to be within range of each other anyway. Knowing your tunes & use your human instincts/skill as much as possible is the best advice I can give. Dj tech has evolved massively to the point where it can track select & mix automatically but the more of these tools you use, the more your mixes will sound generic & boring.
Your best knowing your music inside out.
Problem 6 : if you cut bass from a track (for example, on a track with vocal that you just want to use as an acapella) you definitely change the key of it. Nice video by the way. DJ community needed to hear this !
Serato has bpm and key but i think of them as a rough guide .Keep using your ears boys and girls
Even though I used Mixed In Key, I still verify all my tracks one by one by ear and a piano app. I’m usually playing a musical instrument with my sets.
I just realized this the other day. I love harmonic mixing and it's the key to mini-mashups, but i took note of my tendency to browse for numbers rather than vibe. i'm considering hiding this info for a bit. The same goes for BPMs - i am learning creative ways to make huge BPM jumps. thanks for speaking to exactly where i'm at
Hi man, I recently started performing as a dnb DJ at small parties and from the moment I bought my controller, I ignored the keys rekordbox gave me because they did not feel correct to me. Some friends told me to use keymixing but I decided to just play what sounded nice and after seeing your video, I am glad I did! Thanks for making this video, it gives me some more reasons not to start doing it too much ;)
Thanks for sharing! Carry on with what works :)
Learning basic DJ skills have taught me (through listening to their work more closely) that most club DJ's completely ignore most of the "rules". Some of the most popular DJ's at the local clubs simply play songs that people want to hear, transitions be damned. Like half of their sets are absolute train wrecks but the reality is, especially when you get past 11:PM and the drinks are set in, no one cares. So the rare chances I get to play, I simply do the best I can with song selection and get the "vibe" right, but don't worry too much about anything else.
I have dealt with the topic again and again and it has been successfully ignored every time I hang up
Your biggest problem is that you let software suggest what to play. You gotta know your tunes and play what you as a dj like, and think will go well at that moment. It's the crowd that dictates your selections. I've played every key in my collection. And I know every track in my collection, and what tracks that will mix into them. Listen to the music, feel the crowd, and NEVER play a track you don't know. I mix by ear, mostly harmonically, and I have to say MIK is the most accurate software out there. I use it to write tags to my music the way I like it tagged. Also, I would suggest looking into 'fuzzy mixing', a system where you can mix any two tracks, and never have to worry about not being able to play any track you want.
I use Traktor and its key suggestions. I too sometimes get trapped by choosing songs by key. But even if the two songs have the same key, they might not have the same energy, so sometimes I end up choosing one that has some sort of continuity in energy level, to keep things moving in a nice flow. Also, there are times when a sudden change in feel is good, it might take energy to a new level or take you out of monotony.
When I was in Brno this summer, I jammed on saxophone with a house DJ who used the Camelot key wheel. Trouble is, the system is lousy for modes other than major or Aeolian minor. A track in G Dorian, for example, might be listed as F major! This created a huge source of confusion for me, and I ended up just having to do everything by ear.
Slam em bro. Mood changes = small wins = big things
Thanks for yet another great content video Chris. Happy New Year my guy.
What country are you in by the way?
This was in Austria!
Steps for DJing in the late 80s and 90s..
1. Buy a Vinyl
2. Buy Masking Tape
3. Stick a bar of tape at the top of the cover of the vinyl
4. Write the title on the masking tape
5. Set the pitch at 0 and count the bpm for 60 seconds
6. Redo step 5 for 30 seconds and multiply by 2 to confirm bpm
7. Redo step 5 and 6 until confirmation of the bpm
8. Write the bpm on the masking tape
9. Get all the songs with similar bpm
10. Try each of them with the new vinyl you just bought
11. Know wich one fits with it
12. Repeat step 9, 10 & 11 over and over
Key wasn't a thing since the beginnings and won't ever be a burden for DJs as long as DJs are Djs. Understanding is a plus, but not a necessity!
I don't even bother with keys at all
After time you sort of know by Ear what's going to go well together..
Always mix off texture and energy✌
I learnt to mix on vinyl years ago and therefore practice what goes with what rather than going by key, which was a new concept to me when I started with Rekordbox. Helpful to use it but I don't rely on it and am not bound by it.
ROFL “…like my new vlogging cam, don’t overuse it” 😂
omg - this.....
I never tried to mix "in key" but my ears and classical background have always allowed me to avoid horrible clashes. That camelot wheel thing.....I did sort by key and give it a go. Hit and miss is all I can say. Seriously limiting. (imagine trying to do that with Vinyl...you'd need thousands of records to be able to stick to "in key" mixes)
There's complimentary progression through tunes without trying to stick to that "rule"....and then infinite possibilities vs only a handful of orders you can play the tunes in.
And I do understand....the key is waaay more important in some genres. For what I do though.....complimentary clashes are good.
Profound statement. Is the set playing you or you playing the set. I’ve been djaying for over 40 years and have found myself trapped in the Camelot circle. I listened to older mixes before Camelot and they still have the energy and vibe. So what you know, feel and hear
Very true, plays a major role in liquid/upfront dnb, but not so much the techy stuff. 4:01 can you give us an example of dissonance sometime?
You really need to be using Mixed in Key (MIK). Like you said, Rekordbox sometimes gets its key analysis wrong. MIK is very fast at analyzing key and is very accurate from experience. It also had a built in virtual piano allowing you to validate the key detection.
MIK adds its detected key to the metadata of the track (into the comments field) allowing you to compare between MIK and rekordbox. Where there is a mismatch I then use the virtual piano as a check and balance. I would estimate from my whole 1000 track collection rekordbox gets the key right about 80-90% of the time and MIK just a handful of times.
The SW is also very quick to create playlists allowing you to easily filter you entire collection by energy, BPM, key etc.
I'm definitely guilty of being guided by the Camelot system when creating playlists and use your advice to play about with some more more unconventional key shifts. Great Video as usual. Salzburg looks beautiful.
I'll have to play around with it more. I wasn't aware of the virtual piano!
You have to challenge yourself to mix outside your comfort zone. I never stay in a key more than three to four songs, the audience can get bored of that and it starts to "all sound the same." I introduce the key, drop one or two bangers in it then transition out to the new key, it's how you keep the journey moving and the energy flowing. Sometimes, if I really want to "turn it up," I'll switch up key every track; be careful though the energy can rise quickly.......
I never really understood using this for djing. We just used our ears. If keys didn’t work we found creative ways to make it work.
Hey Chris, never played by Camelot, I use it for mashup, but live never as it was one of my first law, Never play more then 2 or 3 time the same mix, hard but has success (still have) and I had this suspicious, thanks for confirming
Great video!
After so many tracks in a "compatible key" I deliberately pick a track in a completely different key and mix it if it works. That helps as well if you do it intentionally.
Great tip!
I get lazy when key mixing, and you're right, the Worship crew should be called the Fm crew 😂 I hate its my favorite key
“Manbun and Cigarettes” is Chase & Status next big hit 😂😂😂😂
Haha
The key analyzer in rekordbox gets it right most of the time. But I felt stupid once I realised how often tracks are mislabeled. I do actually use a piano when I suspect a key is wrong. Or when away from home I will use a piano app. Maybe 5-10% of tracks are labeled wrong, but over a library that is a lot of songs. I used to rely so much on the chamelot wheel that when I wanted to play a track in 7a from 4a I would actually play 2 songs in between I did not actually plan to play just for the sake of mixing in key..
My sets I just sort by key and play thru. I usually just buy tunes and play the set 60-100 tunes for 2hr set. Dont ever practice and the sounds usually work out great, no issues.
was just thinking about this recently.. mixing only with key can be very boring and closed to being creativity.. I mostly mix by BPM and genre
The.number of DJs doing mashups that sound flat/out of key makes me think that they are either tone def or don't care!
Back in the Day a huge amount of "blends" were just a quick Bar and then in, a hell of a lot of it was a simple cut into the next track at the end of a phrase/chorus ect. Key Mixing is good sometimes sure and with Stems if your trying to layer 2 melodies together but even then if your just using the Drums/Percussion from the second track even then it matters very little.
Mashups Key mixing for sure, some long drawn out Vibey Progressive House layering, sure, sounds great but more just find a way to throw the right on for now, fuck Key imho :)
What is the name of the app you're using to teach yourself how to play the piano?
Simply piano
@@ReallyChrisM Thanks man :)
For a long time, I put together my tracks the old-fashioned way, by ear. But then I got carried away with this function and only used it.
I had the same experience as you.
I think I will deactivate this function again.
Let me know how you get on - honestly I've been loving having it off
@ReallyChrisM
When I selected my tracks by ear, this naturally took longer. With the tone type recognition function, I save time, but I'm always trapped in this loop.
We don't need a video on why natural ear selection is better than using computers - also, those mixed in key programs are not 100 pct accurate.
What do you think about the program Mix In Key?
I’ve not used it extensively enough yet but some DJs swear by it
I knew this day was coming. but yeah turning of traffic lights is definitely inevitable
They might be useful training wheels but dj software tends to do too much.
Key mixing is fine.
There's just a whole lot more to the story.
There's diatonic and non diatonic.
Secondary dominants and borrowed chords which all play a key part.
Never use a single musical element for anything involving music.
Trust your ears not algorithms... Art. You decide
3:03 Congratulaions thats the most funny thing i have heard all year :D
I always find myself stuggling to get out of the 7a 8a 9a (and their respective Bs) area of the wheel.... Drives me nuts
It's super frustrating!
Most ppl that don't DJ or study music cant even tell if its mixed in key anyway,in fact most DJs probably can't tell the difference without the software themselves. 🤣
I go by the rhythms of the track each track dictate the rest of the mix if i start with afro house i will continue with that rhythm into tech house or melodic house to keep the same rhythm
Why does it matter if you don’t notice
Surely no one else has noticed that either
Yeah, I stopped using it too.
How long were you using it for?
@@ReallyChrisM I'd been using it for about 8 years. One day, I was just playing around and I was playing a track and I just heard another track in my head that I felt that it would go well with the song I was playing and so, since I was at home, I just played it and it sounded amazing and when I tried to figure out why, I discovered that it was all wrong as it pertains to 'rules' . I don't have perfect pitch or anything like that, but sometimes I just hear tracks in my head that I know will work and so I play them. Also, you can transpose keys in most software and even if the song doesn't work -- you can make it work.
I have also learned to look at songs for their musical phrases. You can use a loop from one song, from a completely different genre, key and bpm and use it as raw material to set a groove. Also with stems and good EQ technique you can even remove the dissonant components of a track and use everything else about it to create new and exciting mixes and mashups.
Harmonic Mixing is just an idea. Maybe it's an idea that should be reserved for emergencies, like when you need a track fast but with today's powerful DJ software you can bend a track into whatever you want and you should if for nothing more than to frustrate the train spotters and frustrating the copyright detection algorithms .
Awesome video! What's that tune at 5:57mins?
House Of Say - At the barbershop
@@ReallyChrisM Thanks, Chris! 🙏
3:29 sounds like this is the problem, not key mixing. 😂
I marked every note of every chord, including the seventh, of a note. There are eight of twelve notes. You have two out of three chance of getting it right. Super position/harmony.
I have made other djs angry, once on WLTL and once in San Tropez, for keeping the tracks in the mix more than one at a time. I thought that's why you use four decks. It was in 2002ish. Master tempo was new. Turn off mastertempo.
Trap, the genre, is when hiphop and house blend.
Am I the only person thinking "Business Secrets of the Pharaohs" while watching this?
Hell rekordbox can't even get my BPMs right Iol list will show it as 130bpm I load it in and it's 150 lol
Gotta work that wheel bro.
and now you found this out? Track selection always comes first. Use your ears or take ear training if you can't hear compability. Just avoid overlapping keys that don't match
Like smoking, never went in !
I understand key mixing with Pop & Bass (Sub Focus, Wilkinson etc) but its not requires for real/proper DnB 😊
I think you are missing a big part of this… and that’s how you are travelling around the wheel… it doesn’t need to be static or linear… if you know what notes are in a chord and what chords compliment each other you can bounce around the wheel without going in a straight line.
And Recordbox is trash.
Your ears🤷🏼♂️
The fucking ears🎉
I played vinyl before computers took over. If it sounds good, they should be mixed. If it doesn't sound good don't mix them. (I had piano lessons growing up).
Some formal music training is definitely a win, I wish I had it as a kid