Amen. Great job Doug and Holly. I honestly don't know how you can sit there that long listening to such vague participation from the older guy who is dominating and going round and round in circles. Just a time waster. Hopefully he'll let down his silly defenses sometime and allow God to teach him some truth.
Keep in mind… Micheal Brown also defended MIke Bickle and Robert Morris by his experiences “knowing and spending time with them”. So it’s EXTREMELY difficult to take his testimony of people as solid evidence…
@@davidwireback8621 my point is that when you compare written books, video evidence, sermons, etc…. VS “but I know him, he wouldn’t comfort that”…. It doesn’t mean much when several others that you said you “know” have been caught lying. That’s why we go off of the word of God ALONE. It’s infallible 1000% of the time. Not random “prophets” that are wrong often than their right.
Michael Brown wrongly assumed the people he knew and worked with for 30 years isn't a truthful assessment of their being wrong. In essence all he is saying is that through his filter ther are fine. He is a Charismatic bigot.
Why would I keep that in mind except for it being an example of one who bears false witness against a BIC? In each and every instance where Michael said what you quoted he ALWAYS included a "but". And that being that a FULL investigation should be conducted and if Bickle was found to be guilty he should be disciplined and NEVER allowed to head any ministry again.
People are hurt by this NAR movement. It shipwrecks many peoples faith. I was one of them. By the grace of God he showed me the truth and brought me out of the deception I was in. All glory to Him!❤
@@eugenenunn4900Miss the point? The point is that I question the sincerity of these people that are constantly attacking charismatics, not just the nuts, but broad brushing them all by pointing out all the bad, while ignoring the evil done by people whose theology they like better. Nobody made any claim that somehow that changes anything about the NAR. If you're frequenting circles where that kind of argumentation is employed, you might wanna look elsewhere.
It's very clear to me through this interaction that one person is more interested in the reputation of some leaders are being hurt and one person is more concerned that many genuine Christians have been spiritually abused.
Mr. Brown has shown a lack of concern for addressing abuse allegations. He delayed taking action on Todd Bentley's evidence until he finally hired someone to investigate. However, despite these efforts, Mr. Bentley continues to engage in fraudulent activities.
Brown won't call anyone a false teacher but Scripture says there are many among us. He washes everything. Caught him off guard when they brought up someone called him an apostle...a teachable moment? No not when you went with it! I so appreciate Holly and Doug for the work they are doing in exposing this movement of falsehood leading many astray. Glory be to God for that.
A TREMENDOUS discussion!! Well done, Holly and Doug. 1 Cor 11:19 "for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."
Dear Dr. Michael Brown, As a “boots on the ground charismatic” who calls the term “NAR” destructive, what about the countless believers who have left the charismatic movement who align our voice with Doug & Holly agreeing what they’re saying in their years of research is indeed true. I was a “boots on the ground” charismatic for 8 years, a “prophet” of our church, trained in & taught Bethel theology for 8 years, lived down the street from Bill Hamon & his school of prophets & YOU Dr. Michael Brown were a guest speaker at the “school of Revivalists” hosted by our church. The leader of that “school of Revivalists” ushered in “destructive” teachings & the churches theological foundation was in such shambles that it closed just a lil over a year later. I have LIVED the DESTRUCTION of this movement & it’s ideologies & I PRAISE GOD for brothers & sisters like Holly & Doug who persevere to protect the faith. The gospel was unrecognizable to me after 8 years in this movement. I find it interesting that you point out your concern for those being “demonized” by the term NAR, when faithful, God fearing believers are demonized constantly by this movement for not being “spiritual” enough or not coming into alignment with the authority of the apostle/prophet. For someone who thinks so highly of his scholarly achievements, it makes me wonder how you put such little thought into the boards, organizations, teachers, “prophets” & “apostles” you endorse. It seems you use the phrase “well I just don’t know” a lot when it comes to someone you might actually have to rebuke or correct. Having said all this, it’s obvious I need to pray more diligently for you. You are either very well aware there’s a problem or you’re too ignorant or blinded to see it. Either way, I’m praying for you. Your sister in Christ, Tara Beard
Must live on a different planet The reason he was speechless was because he can't believe they don't understand what he was saying You likewise I understand him and because of that I know more than I can count who do likewise
@John-Christchurch-NZ hes speechless because he's not use to having his logic fallacy disagreed upon. Brown is actually living on another planet and Doug caught on to is nonsense.
Holly & Doug… I was in this movement for 3 1/2 decades & am very thankful that I escaped a few years ago & my eyes were opened. You were SPOT ON in everything you presented. I have watched MB in several debates & other situations, his mode of operation is always manipulative. He uses the same arsenal of phrases to belittle & derail whoever he’s talking with. Zero integrity… so very sad because he should be old enough to know better by now. His air of superiority cannot hide his hubris, even his smile is disingenuous & condescending. I am shocked anyone would respect him or listen to him. How you calmly endured this for hours is amazing & speaks to your level of integrity & commitment to the Word of God.🤗 Thank you, thank you, thank you! Please keep exposing these horrific wolves in sheep‘s clothing for people such as myself, now over 70, who finally escaped their dangerous teachings that are leading people to the wide & broad path to destruction. My deep 😊appreciation to you both.💕💕 Philippians 1:3
Thank you Doug and Holly. The Lord in His goodness opened my eyes after a lifetime of NAR theology and spiritual abuse. I didn't know what it was and was so confused, but now I do. I'm still untangling from damaging beliefs. I am so grateful the Lord brought me to freedom through His Word.
My husband and I came out of a NAR church. It is absolutely real, wide spread. Michael Brown is more interested in defending his friends than seeing the facts and truth.
I think Brown wants the views of those being attacked to be accurately represented OUT OF A SENSE OF FAIR PLAY instead of it becoming like one of Martin Luther's HERESY HUNTERS.
Lol, he couldn't find any Reformed folks to go after Luther either. Luther said things so atrocious, they almost defy belief. Not just the Jew stuff either. Luther was vulgar, hateful, callous and very pro murder. So, everybody has their blindspots.
@@Michael_Chandler_Keaton what are you talking about? Luther was not pro-murder. His hope was for murderers to come to repentance and come to the knowledge of Jesus.
@@USAP1776 Stop reading the biographies your heros write. During the peasants' rebellion, Luther encouraged the princes to slaughter the peasants and even to torture them. He encouraged the murder of Jews in Christian lands who refused to convert. There is just way too much to post here, but you need to read an honest biography of Luther and not the sanitized crap. Here's a bonus, he "consumated" his marriage with other people in the room with he and his wife.
Dr. Brown is an expert at talking around and around a point, but never actually addressing the issue. He's also condescending in his argument and tone. I hope he will prayerfully look into these concerns.
As someone who has escaped this movement and was controlled and manipulated and suffered spiritual abuse by an "Apostle" who was untouchable, this is so disturbing. 😒Michael Brown is either completely clueless or he is a dangerous wolf. This interview makes me sick to my stomach. The leaders can gaslight all they want but everyone being led around by these guys know they are all affiliated with each other, they promote each other's books, they attend the same conferences, appear as guest on each other's shows and podcasts and every "Apostle and Prophet" you cannot question. Just because they changed the wording on their websites doesn't change the wording they use when they are giving you "The word of the Lord" This is most definitely a dangerous movement.
Michael Brown and others,are definitely gas lighting! Making their opponents look like fools,who have no spiritual discernment. The NAR is just your imagination, it's not real!"
Excellent work. It is truly sad that a man so educated can remain so evasive. I’ve never seen a scholar claim to know so many men’s hearts yet continually claim ignorance of their ongoing works and twisted teachings. I pray the Lord will help Dr. Brown see his culpability in perpetuating the lie that is the one and only NAR.
Brown is a false prophet, he has prophesied in the name of The Lord things that did not come to pass in the timeframe he prophesied, the scriptures say have no fear of these wolves!!
I hate phrases like that or "I don't wanna argue with you". When used by one who just finished preaching a point at their conversational partner, then closing off any direct disagreement ( in effect, the essence of free and open dialog ), it is a blatant form of control and manipulation. If meant to curb off hostility, then speak it out with a sense of generosity and mutual respect, i.e. "I wanna hear your points as well, whether we agree or disagree, and let's strive for conflict in a spirit of friendly regard for each other." And are we here to seek truth together or hear ourselves out loud for clicks?
@@Michael_Chandler_Keaton Cessationism Vs Continuationism is a word game as well as theological. The modern day "restoring" the gifts means they think they ceased. They pray declaring it is God's will. When it doesn't happen, they look for our failings bc they believe healing ís a part of the atonement, or, sometimes they do resign that maybe it was God's will, but that is generally considered downgrade Christian view They say more ppl are healed with them the Cessationists, as evidence they are right. Whereas so called Cessationists believe God heals as He wills and His gifts did not cease. They simply are to pray with hope, be obedient to pray, call the elders, anoint with oil - and they see God heal, sometimes not.
@@Michael_Chandler_Keaton I despise it, but I wouldn't quite call it "heresy." I agree with Roger Olson that it is "at least heterodox and unbiblical."
Thank you dear brother Doug and sister Holly for sticking to the term New Apostolic Reformation Movement. For not denying it, backed by rigorous research couched in brotherly truth and love. Thank you Dr Brown for your participation.
I am a South African Christian. This is a valuable conversation. NAR churches are easily identifiable once one understands the core tenets. These tenets are regularly denied if one is in discussion with people who attend such churches, because of the semantics and "clever" rhetoric demonstrated by Dr Brown. That is the danger of the destructive nature of the NAR Movement, it is plain as day to those who investigate the phenomenon and like pinning jello to the wall in a discussion with someone who denies the existance thereof.
Doug and Holly did their homework and Michael just says he knows these people personally. (Mike Bickle defense did not age well). Knowledge is not wisdom. And willful ignorance is not innocence.
Because Doug and Holly are the ones investing nearly 100% of their time into the research. They're not called to do what Dr Brown is doing, and Dr Brown is not called to do what they are doing. That should be easy to understand.
Three takeaways for me: (1). Dr Michael Brown just gave a masterclass in deflection! (2) I've only barely listened to Doug once before, but his conduct in this conversation has earned my respect. (3). What Daniel Kolenda said is about the most vile thing I've heard a Christian say about another Christian online (apart from Shamounian)
I watched this through American Gospel and was so irritated by Michael Brown. He did exactly as he did was Justin Peter’s debate. He provides cover for people who he should be critiquing and it’s wild.
Amen... If Michael Brown is actually not sure if Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland are evil false teachers, then frankly, I don't care what he says about anything.
@@e.m.8094 Cessationism is far from blasphemy. It’s evident, but misunderstood by people who are mislead. And before you go on about “cEsSaTiOnIsTs SaY gOd DoEsN’t Do MiRaClEs!!! 🫵🏾😲,” no true cessationist believes that. He absolutely does miracles and absolutely has divine providence, but NAR “prophets” and “apostles” have yet to show God’s miracles, as if they are theirs to begin with. If NAR “ministries” were doing miracles, they ought to show them so that God would receive the glory, Amen? Instead, they harvest money from their congregants who are probably actually in need of God’s goodness, but are fooled into hyper spiritualism and emotions, not understanding the scriptures. If they(the congregants) knew the scriptures, they could see through the garbage. NAR is a power scheme that puts people under the wrong subjection in the name of Yahweh. They do not keep the commandment “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.” These people abuse His name and abuse the scriptures to their benefit. #showThetoes🦶🏻
@@e.m.8094 Also, it’s not about throwing shade. People always say he/we are divisive. Wrong. The people who are abusing the scriptures and God’s power are the ones dividing themselves from the truth. They are the divisive ones, like the Judaizers who came to preach a different gospel. It’s our duty to protect the faith. It’s been under attack as early as Peter, Paul, and the other Apostles who were beginning the ministry, which is why all the books of the New Testament have teachings against false teachers and teachings except Philemon.
@@coreybassard I'm saying that's basically all his does is sit around and watch videos looking for heresy, or his idea of it anyhow. I have yet to see any video of him where he does not bring up the "error" of another believer. I mean you don't see people posting videos about him and his blasphemous error of stating that gifts of the Spirit are not for today. I don't know of any of the early apostles whose entire ministry was devoted to heresy hunting.
Michael Brown's approach is absolutely outrageous. He knows better because he talks on the phone with NAR leaders. Who really cares what he talks with them? Is it provable? No! It is provable what NAR leaders publish, preach, teach and talk publicly
@@teotripo he doesn’t want you to look there though at the facts , he wants you to get emotional and don’t worry he has the holocaust card if nothing else works that’s like kryptonite to everyone
@@matthewmoore8861 Perhaps you should read the title or listen to the video? They don't claim it to be an organization. It is a movement. You are either being dishonest/lying yourself or lost in your own rage. I was raised in the nar movement and had people refuse medication and die due to this false belief structure. Brown is wrong. First face this issue. You should think deeply about your own biases.
@@matthewmoore8861woe!!!! I didn't get the point of your 1st comment but this is pretty slanderous. Doug and Holly are speaking truth that all of us here in comments know to be true because we've all been in it and we know it. You obviously have not.
Brown gives the same argument he gave about the false teachers discussed in the cessation roundtable: "I know these people and they say they don't believe that...". The issue has never been about what these false teachers CLAIM to believe, it's about what they ACTUALLY teach. Does he ever believe that people lie? Does he believe that the teachings among these people is what divides and damages the church? According to Mr. Bown, no one can ever discern false teaching without KNOWING the teacher.
@@davidwireback8621 while there is no verse that specifically states visions and prophecies will cease, there is no verse that states they will continue. We derive theological truths expressed clearly from Scripture or by good and necessary consequence can be deduced by Scripture (like the truth of the Trinity). And two verses in Scripture (there are others but for YT sake) that imply that prophecies and revelations had a purpose that was FULLFILLED when Christ established the Church. Hebrews 1:1-2 & 2Tim. 3:16-17. Now you tell me, according to these verses WHY does the church NEED new Apostles and the prophecies, revelations, and visions they bring? Since Christ, who has spoken through his 12 disciples (all those who listen to them listen to Christ -Luke 10:16), and His disciple Paul writes in the power of the Holy Spirit that Scripture is SUFFICIENT to equip the church for every good work; WHY then, would the Holy Spirit contradict himself and send so called apostles that state we need more prophecies, revelation, and words of knowledge to equip us? Oh, and by the way, in case you didn't know, people don't need to be clarifying teaching from the teacher every time there is a falsehood. Liers lie. Deceivers DECEIVE. They "repent" of their false teaching but then continue to teach it. We didn't see Paul clarifying with Peter before calling him out on his falsehood, did we?
@@John-Christchurch-NZ if what I think they teach is what they teach, then why does it matter? If I think they teach that people need to hear from God, and they teach they need to hear from God, then I'm accurate in what they teach, right? What I think doesn't matter. What matters is - is what they teach in accord with Scripture? Do we need new (big "A") Apostles to bring in new visions, revelations, and prophecies to equip the church? (And even Michael Brown would say yes, because he has given prophecies) Not according to the Holy Spirit who says Scripture is sufficient to equip the church. The ministers of the church (little "a" apostles, evangelists, pastors, teachers, etc) are to give the full council of God found in his already written word. It THOROUGHLY equips God's people. So what about you? Do you believe Scripture is sufficient or do you deny the Holy Spirit and want more than Christ himself and what He has graciously given you in his word?
God has mightily used Dr Brown to benefit thousands of us over the decades. People need to realize that he's not called to a full-time "finger pointing" ministry like some people are. Wink, wink.
Oh my gosh HE SURE IS?!!!! I can't even listen to him for 10 min and my hearts pounding and I'm enraged. I cannot stand his ongoing blind defense of this Wolfpack. He just talks in circles.
@@StevenKozarMessedUpChurchSteve you made this comment asking if Holly quoting books is spreading gossip to davidwireback .... But that comment is gone. What did he say? GLAD you are here. Can't wait to hear your vid about this vid. I will wait for that for I simply cannot stand to listen to brown. Like I have a physical response that I cannot handle him or my pounding heart. I didn't make it past 15 min. And I took 2 breaks. I really believe we need to just consider brown as a pagan and move on. Like why is everyone trying to convince him that he's in the NAR?!!
I serve as a pastor in a Baptist church in a small town in Serbia. Relatively recently, I found out that a conference called "Fivefold Ministry" was organized in a neighboring country (Croatia). A few months ago, the same conference was organized in Serbia, also under the same name. At this conference, the speakers, who are some of the most famous pastors in this area, were from the Pentecostal and charismatic churches. All the sermons are on YT, so we could listen to them. Through these sermons, the speakers claimed that God is restoring the offices of Apostles and prophets today, and that these are the people under whose authority all local churches should submit. Some speakers do not want to admit that they are part of the NAR, but they use terminology that is typical of this movement and represents its beliefs. I heard that they are planning to organize the same conference in other Balkan countries. The NAR belief has also reached the Balkans, so we have to recognize that this is a movement that is developing and growing.
I am a charismatic who prays in tongues and believes in the moves of God. I pray in tongues hours and hours at a time. I also left the NAR and WOF churches due to the carnality and hyperfaith. I would never send a new believer to one of them. It is important to allow the Holy Ghost and His gifts, and also to test and to discern.
@@limegreen90 sometimes when I do not know what to pray, I sit silently and ask the Holy Spirit to pray for me. I know He does even though I make no sounds.
The Sadducees were like this in the time of Christ. There play terminology and not admit they were part of the Sadducee order so they could go into temples and change them from within.
I did not even know Baptist churches existed in places like Serbia! We in the US have such little visibility of Eastern Europe that I just thought most everything would be Catholic or Orthadox. Does your church have website so i could see some pictures?
I respect and admire the way Holly and Doug stand their ground . I know both parties feel deeply convicted and it can be hard to remain calm and easy to speak over others. I especially think that Brown is prone to talk over others so I like when Doug or Holly politely insist on finishing their thought/point.
THE TRUTH DOES NOT HIDE FROM THE LIGHT. Dr. Brown is the number one defender of himself.. I dont get how he knows everyone but knows nothing of what they believe... but yet puts it as one of his job descriptions.. He does not defend thee Faith, only his and his friends faith....VERY RED FLAGS.
we are meant to judge them by their fruit, not by personal friendships or how sincere they are. These false teachers and apostles are destroying whole families with their lies and confusion and they need to be marked and avoided. Birds of a feather flock together. He imparts the same spirit that they do that makes people moan, groan, shake, twitch and flap uncontrollably.
Keep searching the Truth and asking The Lord to lead you into Truth and help you! He will! I am also still being cleansed from the false NAR teachings myself and still wrestling through stuff but over the hill already and in stability and seeing The Lord lead me according to scripture.
@@davidwireback8621 hi David, for me it was being told through prophecy that my dreams would come true if I had enough faith and rested in god (rather than taking physical steps in reality to make them happen, they never even came close to happening).2nd being told to submit to a leader because she (I know now that female pastors is unscriptural) is the apostle and hears from god better than me or anyone in our church, even tho she was quite a horrible person which I could go into but won’t. 3rd is that if prayers aren’t being answered like healing, financial breakthrough etc it’s because I didn’t have enough faith or pray hard or declare hard enough…nowadays I pray very quite and ‘dry’ payers and you know what? God is answering me, I now have a business and my family pray every night for about 30 seconds and he hears those prayers that I need things to sell from my shop, god is god not because I have enough faith or pray long hypotonic prays over and over, he is right here with me and I don’t need perform for him or anyone, I could talk about this for hours lol
I am only 11 minutes in and my heart is pounding!!! I'm ALREADY SICK of BROWN and his ridiculous defense and complete ignoring of the NAR !!! Hes a blind as a bat and wouldn't know anything NAR if it bit him. Cuz he's IN IT and he can't recognize it. Let's keep BROWN out of these round tables from now on. Why are we TRYING SO HARD to convince this wolf that hes part of an abusive wolf ministry? We know he's a NAR wolf so let's move on. I personally don't want to hear one more word from him. I have grown from having no opinion to severely disliking this guy .
Agreed, and he uses huge emotional words to exaggerate what the opposition is saying. He really tries to manipulate the emotions of listeners, just like they do in the non-existent NAR.
@@Summer_Daze I’m surprised he hasn’t polled out the holocaust card like he does most of his stuff. although he may have, I just cannot listen to the whole thing because Dr. Brown will have you talking in circles
@@markscott4830 he is not rebuke plain heresy. Like the Toronto blessing whatever that was called where people were acting like animals barking like dogs, howling like wolves.. he refuses to call heresy out. And most of the time he embraces it.
The error of his ways? If you watch the whole thing, he obviously doesn't agree with certain statements and viewpoints, his whole objection is he doesn't see it as a unified movement. Or are you referring to something completely different aside from this discussion?
Charismatic here. I left the WOF/NAR movement after all the false words, hyper faith, and money grubbing. I believe in the moves of the Holy Ghost. I will never attend church again due to all I experienced that was false. My family was destroyed. If the greedy will not inherit the kingdom, and we're not supposed to even eat with those who says they are believers but who are greedy, why is ANYONE attending Benny Hinn's meetings? Mike blocked me on twitter for asking such questions, saying I was nuts.
I’m a former Pentecostal and have found a church that does expository preaching \ teaching. You can find a great church that is not WOF / NAR / hyper charismatic, that teaches verse by verse through a book of the Bible (expository preaching). I have learned so much through this kind of preaching, and no longer seek “experiences.” I feel so much closer to God through studying the Bible, and not chasing experiences. Have you read books by Costi Hinn, Benny Hinn’s nephew who has come out of the WOF?
@@valeriehancock1724 Yes, I just cannot stomach church anymore. People are just not genuine in most USA churches. Even the ones that teach the bible. This is because most churches are filled with eternal babies and pew sitters that live in carnality. They sit and listen but never grow . I have had enough of it all.
“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” Hebrews 10:24-25 ESV I’ve also been hurt by the many people in Pentecostal/charismatic churches but would encourage you to seek a good biblically sound church
@@josemolina8230 Been saved decades. I don't live in the USA anymore. If I did, I wouldn't entrust myself to any church or any person in a church. Back in Paul's day, the church was the church, not a way for ministers to get rich. USA church is a show, an agenda, a program, not a people truly following Jesus. It's all about the money.
There is Discernment, and then there is Michael Brown Discernment. True Discernment is knowing the difference between Right and Almost Right (almost doesn't cut it). Anything that deviates from the True Gospel of Christ, "Christ and Him Cruicified", anything more and added is another gospel. Inserting self into scripture and going beyond what is written in scripture is dangerous ground and it is what is described in the word as being another gospel, another Jesus, and another spirit that accompanies it. Reminds me of Bethel, Hillsong, Elevation (Steven Furtick).
At min 47 Dr. Michael Brown’s appeal to authority. Just goes to show that someone can have more degrees than a thermometer and not have an ounce of discernment.
I have over the years have lost all respect for DrMB and for him to defend these hucksters year over year....it is horrendous and he should be ashamed and he should repent
@@e.m.8094 oh, I listened closely. I also came out of the NAR movement he insists is a myth. It's not, and this sounds more like damage control on Dr. Brown's part than anything else.
@@e.m.8094 Doug remained calm and emotionless, Brown got visibly upset when Doug dismantled Brown's attempted 'I know all these people better than you' defense.
Brown keeps protecting the wolves, false apostles and false prophets of the NAR. If he quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck - clearly he is not a duck.
@@frizzyrascal1493You do realize that most of the other well-known Christian leaders are not screaming "heretic" at everyone that Doug and Holly says are NAR, right? Why aren't you slamming them? 🤔
Not listening Huh Certainly not what I hear Look at the fruit of his life and ministry I grieve when I see the fruit of Doug and Holly's ministry particularly in the false accusations against Men and Women of God whose theology and practice they don't like and the attacks that arise in the comments
There is a chronic need for Mike to confront his friends with their false teachings. If he would be valiant for the truth the Doug's and Holly's of the world would rejoice.
How did people comment before it even appeared?!!!! Thank you Brandon for all the hard work. Thank you to Holly and Doug for their tireless research and for being assertive without being jerkish. Grateful to you all for this round table.
Oh there’s people in this comment section who can’t refute any of the arguments laid out before us so they just attack Doug and Holly. It’s very telling to me tbh
The more I’ve listened to Mike I’ve noticing that he has two built in escape routes when discussing NAR and the charismatic chaos. 1. Play dumb to what you are being confronted with, and 2. Let everyone know your friends with the said person so it’s automatically fine. He’s just being intellectually dishonest. He knows.
He does indeed know. The idea (quoting Wollnau) that the 'Seven Mountains Mandate' is fictional, i.e. that it's _not_ part of NAR doctrine, isn't worthy of a moment's consideration. Johnson, Valotton, Wollnau, _and many other NAR leaders_ , all write on this, speak on this, and promote it. The thing I find truly disappointing (I am no longer shocked, as I've heard it so many times), is the refrain, "If that's _really_ what they're saying, I'd call them out on it... but they're not." It's usually accompanied by a "black-is-really-white" refutation of something plain and obvious.
Both of these roundtables… NAR, and the one with Peters/Osman have been fantastic! Brown and Storms had it handed to them and then this one was excellent as well! I didn’t think it possible to be as good as the first one, but I was wrong. I see now why Michael Brown quit on you guys, his obfuscation skills were put to the test… great work!! God bless 🙏
Mark Chironna's Endorsement of "Modern Day Apostles" by Che Ahn: “Ché Ahn is a global voice with an apostolic sphere and measure entrusted to him by the triune God. I deeply love and appreciate him for who he is and what he carries. I love his heart, his passion, and his tenacity to see the fullness of Christ made manifest in the people of God. I count him a dear, dear friend and companion in Christ. It is difficult to be around Ché and not catch the fervor of his passion and hunger for Christ and the eternal purpose of the Father. Ché is persuaded, as am I, that coming to “the measure of the stature of the fullness that belongs to Christ” in the church, the Body of Christ, cannot happen without the full functioning of apostolic and prophetic ministry. It is as Paul tells us-foundational to all that Christ has done and continues to do. Modern-Day Apostles will provide-in a practical, down-to-earth, boots-on-the-ground way (rooted in his extensive global reach and experience of many, many fruitful years of Kingdom service to and for Christ)-a potent, relevant, and detailed explanation of what apostolic ministry and function is all about. It addresses succinctly both from Scripture and church history the unfortunate misunderstandings that have lingered in the Body of Christ because of the doctrine of cessationism. The ascended Christ gave gifts, the first among which are apostles, to His people for the building up of the Body so that we can fulfill what is required to make disciples of all nations. Those who contend that apostolic ministry, function, and expression ended after the first-century church, do great harm and damage to the sacred text, as well as to the Body of Christ. Apostles are still here. You can recognize them by the way they function. Ché gives you key “markers” to recognize their presence in the Body of Christ. By the time you are finished reading this book, you will have a renewed and intensified fire in your heart by the Spirit to pursue Christ’s desire for the nations and become part of that growing army that wants to see the nations filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord. If it moves you to be more in love with Jesus and to want to get more actively involved with the men and women who are carrying the torch of the testimony as it was carried since the days of Christ’s ascension and the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, Ché’s book will be a gift that keeps on giving, even to succeeding generations. Let the church always be reforming, and let revival fires burn!” -Dr. Mark J. Chironna Church On The Living Edge Mark Chironna Ministries Excerpt From Modern-Day Apostles Ché Ahn
I believe we should have apostles today but to CORRECT FALSE TEACHING such as but not limited to NAR. And these apostle are NOT all the foundation but to simply uphold the position and correct the bad actors.
An Apostle had to walk with The Lord Christ Jesus for 3 years, used the Apostle gifts of miracles and True healings ( raising the dead, etc..), and must have seen the Risen The Lord Christ Jesus. Not one single human being meets that requirement today. You build the foundation once you don't keep building the foundation. 1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
@@destinycoach5 You can’t discuss this with reason & logic? You only attack, your side has elements of cult behavior! And you’re the “destiny coach”???
There is a "cottage industry" of those that get honorariums from NAR churches they are "in relationship" with. John Bevere, James Goll, Robert Henderson, Danny Silk, Chuck Pierce, on and on... Whether they are teaching "covering theology"or giving specific prophetic words about a local pastor's new level of authority, their teaching and/or prophecy works to shore up the supposed extraordinary "authority" of those that have invited them, paid their honorarium, hotel, etc. It's a symbiotic relationship. Christian leaders that at one time were opposed to the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church, now seem to pragmatically be willing to embrace it.
Oh boy, I can not wait until people disect this. Many, if not most, of Michael Brown's arguments did not hold water. Sort of reminds me of clouds without water.
@@davidwireback8621that's actually strawmanning Holly and Dougs work. Although they'll welcome to sit down with false teachers, Bill Johnson, Kris Vallaton and Mike Bickle etc, they don't necessarily need to. Bill Johnson, Bickel, Hammond, Peter Wagner etc have all written and filmed teachings that distort the NT teachings on apostles and prophets, and the sign gifts (healing, signs and wonders). The problem is, their doctrines has influenced unsuspecting Christians and infiltrated churches with false promises of prosperity and healing. To that extent, Holly and Doug are warning the Church of this growing movement that has destroyed lives and stunting the churches witness of the gospel to a watching a world.
@@davidwireback8621secondly, the five fold ministry is a false doctrine that came out of a exegetical interpretation of Ephesians 4:11. The first mistake is making an assumption apostle, prophet, shepherd etc is not a governing office. Paul does not say that in the text. In verse 7, he said "Christ gave.." these are Christo centric gifts that equip the church for the work of ministry so that the Christian is not toss to and throw by different doctrines. It is never about apostles and prophets governing the church..
Michael Brown is so patient and humble in the face of people who appear to be fault finding and head hunting. I'm very impressed with how he carried himself in this situation
Note: In Mark Chironna's final answer to Brown's questions, he affirms that NAR exists and that it is a movement with "massive influence." "7) Again, navigating these waters is difficult because there are many wonderful men and women in the NAR. Preserving the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace is not always easy. Moving forward, due to the massive influence of the movement, there will have to be many conversations, even difficult ones. However, in the current climate, where tensions run high, it may take another generation before it all gets sorted out and genuine repentance is present."
@@davidwireback8621wow. I only ban people from our page who lie and slander, or treat secondary issues as heresy. I also don’t misrepresent anyone in editing. People claim that all the time because they can’t defend falsehoods, or handle truth (very similar to your “keep your mouth shut” comment for merely posting what Mark wrote.
I have experienced this first hand as a worship pastor for 15 years as my pastor prophet became ordained as an apostle. The church slippery slope of false doctrine might have been more subtle, but once he took the apostle title it moved down hill quickly to false teaching openly .
Holly spoon fed direct exact examples of people in the NAR movement, and all Brown did was ignore all of it and to respond with saying he knows pastors that he won’t name that disagree, so therefore it’s not real. With Brown refusing to accept truth about false teachers and his teaching that false prophesies today are ok, he is disqualified to be in ministry and needs to repent.
NAR has been able to merge every false teaching: prosperity gospel, new age, false prophetic, false apostles, manifest sons of god false doctrine, Latter Rain false doctrine, and soon merge back with Catholicism.
I think that's part of the problem. NAR could include anything and everything...or it could be defined quite narrowly. I can't speak for everyone everywhere, but in my area it's been used as a catch-all term for any charismatic doctrine or practice that someone disagrees with. Not sure what the best solution is, but that's what's happened around here so far
@@matthewmoore8861 it’s in the name, the churches that have Apostles and Prophets leading the church. As per CP Wagner these offices have been restored. I don’t know why the name of the movement is such an issue for Dr Brown as the name was coined by those who are in it. Like the Demon Slayers call themselves Demon Slayers and don’t have a problem being called Demon Slayers. If you are referred to as an Apostle why do you care that the collective name is New Apostolic Reformation?
@@matthewmoore8861 the conspiracy theory is to not believe that there’s an NAR that exists. Everyone of their leaders out in the open accepts their apostleship or their prophetic gifting even Chris Valatine says that it’ll reshape Christianity, as if it needed that. Daniel Kalenda, who’s out front along with Brown that says that the NAR doesn’t exist they’re both in Collusion with each other.
“Knowing these people personally…” What a problematic argument!! MB may think he knows someone personally, but don’t forget how strongly Sam Storms defended Mike Buckle because he knew that man so well.
I wish Dr Brown would stop answering every question by “These people have good hearts.” This is not a biblical statement. Personally, I’m part of a NAR Recovery group on FB. So much trauma and tragedy through generations of families. Also - Why is he answering for everyone else? Are they too cowardly to ‘stand up for what they believe’? He’s become their whipping boy.
I read Doug and Holly’s book. In no way do they even indicate or suggest that all people in the NAR movement use the Passion Translation as Michael Brown says he thinks it comes across in the book. Honestly listening to Michael Brown here gives me a headache.
I’ve read 3 or 4 of the books from Bethel, visited, and then went to their “healing rooms” a friend was an intern there that we visited and student and also followed their guide books. So it’s funny to me that they deny this when it’s in all there books and teachings. God saved me out of this movement in great detail and it was His mercy and grace and love to do so. Dr. Brown is completely in denial. I’ve been in these movements as a full believer in them and he is the one that has a misunderstanding of the facts and reality.
Thankyou Doug and Holly. You were respectful and thoughtful in the way this was conducted. It’s unfortunate that MB didn’t have the same respect and care for you and others who have been hurt by this unbiblical movement.
It seems as if Micheal keeps thinking he’s the standard, He thinks that if he knows somebody personally, therefore, they can’t be a bad guy. He use that same reasoning with my Mike Bickle that line of reasoning didn’t age well.
I had a friend that attends Gateway Church in Texas. He used to boast that they were under an apostle Jack Hayford, that was called the modern day Apostle Paul. He didn't know he was in a NAR "church". It doesn't mean that he wasn't in a NAR church.
Brown really doesn't care. He is talking in circles. He is not getting what Doug is putting out there. I love Doug and Holly. So respectful and wise in how they are handle. It isn't a mischarcterization. Brown stating they are being demonized is the same as him stating that some claim that are condeming these leaders to hell. No o ne can do that.
Glad to be out of the NAR movement. Was clueless how terrible it was! I have more peace and comfort sticking with truth of God’s Word. I had to unravel unstable doctrine that goes against the truth! It was so heart breaking that I was so uninformed. Stick with what has worked for 2000 years true truth! Thank you for doing this round table. Reassurance to follow the Holy Spirits prompting! Sadly not many Bible teaching churches out there! Praying for all! Sad to see Christians following such people instead of Jesus the only one that saves! No need to chase apostles and so called prophets. They did not get COVID or anything else. Baffles my mind now how they can so easily be swayed with the wind.
Seems like NAR is following the same playbook as Word of Faith. Deny the existence of the movement and then you won't be held accountable for your false doctrine.
I would not believe the NARly folks that would say, “I am not NAR.” This is such a deceptive movement. If they speak to you directly and say, “you are misrepresenting me,” and “I believe the essential Christian truths.” Don’t believe it. Look at their sermons, writings, teachings. They never emphasize Christ and his gospel, and once out of 100 sermons you might hear it. Their focus is special revelation, dreams, visions, words of knowledge, healings, miracles, etc… but when confronted, they have two faces. “yes we are orthodox.” But in their practice and teaching this is not true. This is why the NAR is so deceptive. It’s the new Mormonism. And guilt by association is true, and not a fallacy. Check out Psalm 1.
I attended Dr. Brown's church in Concord, NC for about 6 years. He is not a deceiver but may see the best in people rather than the worst. That could be working against him, although I disagreed with things like "fire tunnels" and eventually left the church, I can say that the people there were some of the most on-fire people for Jesus I have met to this day. I learned many practical things that I still practice. Although I don't agree with all of his theology, I can say that he is honest and loves the Lord with all his heart. Under his leadership and the leadership of FIRE church I never saw even a hint of abuse. Again, I can't say that I agree with everything he believes, but I can say that his character is one of a man after God's own heart.
Please help me understand how he can be a man after God's own heart & negate what is going on in a lot of these churches & the amount of hurt it's doing?
3:11:00 Dr. Brown: "They're not calling what YOU'RE calling the New Apostolic reformation. They're calling this little thing within this larger thing the..." He was literally about to admit that people he knows are using the title NAR, yet he says its a myth. He talks out of both sides of his mouth.
Wow….anyone who has ever heard Lance Wallnau speak…for over 60 seconds…would “swear” his language supports domination in the seven areas of culture!! Having been aware of LW for several years now..and listening to many hours of his National philosophy and theology…he has been consistent in his delivery of dominion beliefs.
The fact that Brown called the Protestant reformation a restoration movement to try and support all this really says it all. Let’s not forget that Brown has a demonstrated track record of clearly lacking discernment.
Michael brown has said the same thing over and over. He’s given clear evidence of something false and just says “if it’s true how your representing it then I agree, but I just haven’t done the research myself”. You really can’t get anywhere with that..
When Michael Brown is addressing things outside of the Church, he is generally spot-on. But whenever it comes to anything remotely close to questioning charismatic/pentecostal personalities or practices, he becomes a full-blown propagandist who sees no wrong in anything. That it took a video by Mike Winger to get him to finally address Benny Hinn, when Chris Rosebrough, Justin Peters, and Steven Kozar had demonstrated the EXACT SAME problems many times before is very telling about his unquestioning allegiance to unscriptural doctrines and practices. Chris Rosebrough calls Brown the "Doctor of Obfuscation," and I'm inclined to agree with him. If Brown exercised as much discernment with regard to his own continuationist circles as he does with secular matters, cessationists might actually take his responses a bit more seriously.
Those who have been negatively impacted by NAR are acutely aware. Conversely, those who profit financially from NAR often engage in semantic manipulation.
An extremely relevant and provable question that was not asked is the following: If the association with the “NAR” is such an unfair and broad brush (and I am not a cessationist), why do all of these people promote, associate agreeably with, and otherwise employ the terminology that would lead to the conclusion that they should be included? I believe it is obvious that they want to have it both ways. They happily participate in their own association with the teachings because it connects them to the audience who are touched by or influenced by it. They want to be included and to be thought of as being part of this “next wave/movement of revival, etc. And for obvious reasons; Namely, Influence, exposure, and other benefit of those things. Charismatic preachers and teachers refuse to dare call out any name or false teaching that would injure their promotion or inclusion in the “Fresh anointing, Dominion, Next Wave, Manifest Sons, Open Heaven, Prophetic Mantle” movements. Meanwhile Dr Brown, who comes closer to “calling out false teaching” expends copious effort to defend the individuals who, in a private conversation may say they disagree. I do not envy him in his undertaking to prop up a system that God himself continues to expose to the light of day. There can be no revival as long as the Copeland/Hinn/ Johnson/Howard-Brown type leaders are playing both ends against the middle
Whatever you think of Doc Brown -- and my views are mixed -- you should give him at least *some* credit for doing the sit-down, doing it outnumbered 2-1, and for giving permission for its release after his withdrawal from the project.
I wish Sam Storms had shown up with Michael Brown to say, “I know these people to the depths of their souls, and y’all are just wrong about them.” That would be a real defense
It's a complete waste of time talking to Michael Brown about NAR. He says that he is a bridge builder, but in reality, he is a false hood denier. He just will not call out the wolves.
Having been in the charismatic movement for a short while, I can see how Michael Brown wants to give the benefit of the doubt to many of these leaders because he developed friendships with them and in many cases they are very personable, even if sometimes very wrong. The problem is Michael Brown has moved on to other movements and research endeavors while still desiring an association with these people because they remind him of his early spiritual years. The problem is he no longer has the luxury to defend these leaders being a leader himself. He needs to call a spade a spade and be bold, pointing out the error of his friends, because he has been given much, and much is expected of him.
Based on what? He remained consistent to his point which was: When you make the brush so wide, there are going to innocent people hit. The reality is that Doug and Holly didn’t cate about this point or the facts he presented because they have already decided that the people they have called out are wrong. The reality of it is that not all charismatics are NAR, but all NAR’s are charismatic (though I don’t believe it is as mainstream or popular as people make it). The problem is that, as much as Doug and Holly say they try to create nuance- they have colleagues like Justin Peters who call every believer of apostles and prophets associated with NAR and false narratives are created. Discernment is fine, but unequal weights and measures veiled in discernment is not.
@5Solas1Truth Is your reasoning for hating him that he doesn't speak bad about certain people who have some errors? Do you have anything more concrete?
@@Deagle-lj7tv Never said I “hate” him so let’s start there. The problem is he is afraid to put obvious false teachings. Scripture time and again demands us to.
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Doug, with his even tone and gentle voice, did not come to play. He came packing. God bless him ❤
Job well done! And sister Holky had facts readily on hand. We'll executed to Team Truth.
Amen. Great job Doug and Holly. I honestly don't know how you can sit there that long listening to such vague participation from the older guy who is dominating and going round and round in circles. Just a time waster. Hopefully he'll let down his silly defenses sometime and allow God to teach him some truth.
Keep in mind… Micheal Brown also defended MIke Bickle and Robert Morris by his experiences “knowing and spending time with them”. So it’s EXTREMELY difficult to take his testimony of people as solid evidence…
@@davidwireback8621that's why you can't swear for anyone. And I know Christians shouldn't be swearing BTW. But you get my point
@@davidwireback8621 my point is that when you compare written books, video evidence, sermons, etc…. VS “but I know him, he wouldn’t comfort that”…. It doesn’t mean much when several others that you said you “know” have been caught lying. That’s why we go off of the word of God ALONE. It’s infallible 1000% of the time. Not random “prophets” that are wrong often than their right.
Michael Brown wrongly assumed the people he knew and worked with for 30 years isn't a truthful assessment of their being wrong. In essence all he is saying is that through his filter ther are fine. He is a Charismatic bigot.
@@davidwireback8621if you don’t know someone intimately well, then you probably shouldn’t endorse them.
Why would I keep that in mind except for it being an example of one who bears false witness against a BIC? In each and every instance where Michael said what you quoted he ALWAYS included a "but". And that being that a FULL investigation should be conducted and if Bickle was found to be guilty he should be disciplined and NEVER allowed to head any ministry again.
People are hurt by this NAR movement. It shipwrecks many peoples faith. I was one of them. By the grace of God he showed me the truth and brought me out of the deception I was in. All glory to Him!❤
People were very hurt by MacArthur's church defending a pedophile sex offender too, but everybody is silent about that.
And by RC Sproul Jr's criminal behavior, but more silence.
@Michael_Chandler_Keaton what on earth does that have to do with NAR? All evil is wrong. What you mentioned doesn't make NAR any less evil
@@eugenenunn4900Miss the point? The point is that I question the sincerity of these people that are constantly attacking charismatics, not just the nuts, but broad brushing them all by pointing out all the bad, while ignoring the evil done by people whose theology they like better. Nobody made any claim that somehow that changes anything about the NAR. If you're frequenting circles where that kind of argumentation is employed, you might wanna look elsewhere.
Thank you for sharing!
It's very clear to me through this interaction that one person is more interested in the reputation of some leaders are being hurt and one person is more concerned that many genuine Christians have been spiritually abused.
Mr. Brown has shown a lack of concern for addressing abuse allegations. He delayed taking action on Todd Bentley's evidence until he finally hired someone to investigate. However, despite these efforts, Mr. Bentley continues to engage in fraudulent activities.
Brown won't call anyone a false teacher but Scripture says there are many among us. He washes everything. Caught him off guard when they brought up someone called him an apostle...a teachable moment? No not when you went with it! I so appreciate Holly and Doug for the work they are doing in exposing this movement of falsehood leading many astray. Glory be to God for that.
A TREMENDOUS discussion!! Well done, Holly and Doug. 1 Cor 11:19 "for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."
Dear Dr. Michael Brown,
As a “boots on the ground charismatic” who calls the term “NAR” destructive, what about the countless believers who have left the charismatic movement who align our voice with Doug & Holly agreeing what they’re saying in their years of research is indeed true. I was a “boots on the ground” charismatic for 8 years, a “prophet” of our church, trained in & taught Bethel theology for 8 years, lived down the street from Bill Hamon & his school of prophets & YOU Dr. Michael Brown were a guest speaker at the “school of Revivalists” hosted by our church. The leader of that “school of Revivalists” ushered in “destructive” teachings & the churches theological foundation was in such shambles that it closed just a lil over a year later. I have LIVED the DESTRUCTION of this movement & it’s ideologies & I PRAISE GOD for brothers & sisters like Holly & Doug who persevere to protect the faith. The gospel was unrecognizable to me after 8 years in this movement. I find it interesting that you point out your concern for those being “demonized” by the term NAR, when faithful, God fearing believers are demonized constantly by this movement for not being “spiritual” enough or not coming into alignment with the authority of the apostle/prophet. For someone who thinks so highly of his scholarly achievements, it makes me wonder how you put such little thought into the boards, organizations, teachers, “prophets” & “apostles” you endorse. It seems you use the phrase “well I just don’t know” a lot when it comes to someone you might actually have to rebuke or correct. Having said all this, it’s obvious I need to pray more diligently for you. You are either very well aware there’s a problem or you’re too ignorant or blinded to see it. Either way, I’m praying for you.
Your sister in Christ,
Tara Beard
Mic drop….thank you for sharing for all those that say this is not real
Standing ovation for Doug and Holly. I've not seen anyone stand up to Dr. Brown like that and pretty much leave him speechless. They were amazing!!!!
That's what happens when two truly educated people go up against someone who has zero evidence in defending his claims about a false movement...
Agreed. Staunch and firm yet fair.
Must live on a different planet
The reason he was speechless was because he can't believe they don't understand what he was saying
You likewise
I understand him
and because of that
I know more than I can count who do likewise
@John-Christchurch-NZ hes speechless because he's not use to having his logic fallacy disagreed upon. Brown is actually living on another planet and Doug caught on to is nonsense.
@@Reformed1-e1c
No
I disagree strongly
But it frustrates me that people cannot see whether they accept it or not understand
Holly & Doug… I was in this movement for 3 1/2 decades & am very thankful that I escaped a few years ago & my eyes were opened. You were SPOT ON in everything you presented. I have watched MB in several debates & other situations, his mode of operation is always manipulative. He uses the same arsenal of phrases to belittle & derail whoever he’s talking with. Zero integrity… so very sad because he should be old enough to know better by now. His air of superiority cannot hide his hubris, even his smile is disingenuous & condescending. I am shocked anyone would respect him or listen to him. How you calmly endured this for hours is amazing & speaks to your level of integrity & commitment to the Word of God.🤗 Thank you, thank you, thank you! Please keep exposing these horrific wolves in sheep‘s clothing for people such as myself, now over 70, who finally escaped their dangerous teachings that are leading people to the wide & broad path to destruction.
My deep 😊appreciation to you both.💕💕 Philippians 1:3
Amen, sister! ❤️
Very well said. He's coming across like an agent for the deception that is being released into this world, and we know where it comes from.
Thank you Doug and Holly. The Lord in His goodness opened my eyes after a lifetime of NAR theology and spiritual abuse. I didn't know what it was and was so confused, but now I do. I'm still untangling from damaging beliefs. I am so grateful the Lord brought me to freedom through His Word.
Doug was my apologetics prof 30 years ago. This video is a masterclass on how to conduct yourself with those you disagree with.
Thank you so much for standing for the wounded ones who have come out of this NAR movement.
Oh please....wah wah wah....get over yourself.
@@FlameKeepersPodcast-yr2yp No such organization exists
@@zanelowrey7871 Do you believe that Word-Faith exists?
@@FlameKeepersPodcast-yr2yp You can count them on one hand that has no fingers
@@Norrin777Radd Yes I do, just as much as I believe false critics and heresy hunters exist also. They do much damage with their divisive ideology.
My husband and I came out of a NAR church. It is absolutely real, wide spread.
Michael Brown is more interested in defending his friends than seeing the facts and truth.
More so he wants to be a gatekeeper and champion of all things charismatic.
@@MB-263 gatekeeper - bigger than the charismatics way bigger …..
Mike Brown dodged critique on Hinn and Copeland. He's a manipulative expert.
So you rejected the Holy Spirit for dead religion? How nice 😂
I think Brown wants the views of those being attacked to be accurately represented OUT OF A SENSE OF FAIR PLAY instead of it becoming like one of Martin Luther's HERESY HUNTERS.
Michael Brown has proven time and time again that he will NEVER call these NAR false "prophets!
Lol, he couldn't find any Reformed folks to go after Luther either. Luther said things so atrocious, they almost defy belief. Not just the Jew stuff either. Luther was vulgar, hateful, callous and very pro murder. So, everybody has their blindspots.
@@Michael_Chandler_Keaton what are you talking about? Luther was not pro-murder. His hope was for murderers to come to repentance and come to the knowledge of Jesus.
@@USAP1776 Stop reading the biographies your heros write. During the peasants' rebellion, Luther encouraged the princes to slaughter the peasants and even to torture them. He encouraged the murder of Jews in Christian lands who refused to convert.
There is just way too much to post here, but you need to read an honest biography of Luther and not the sanitized crap. Here's a bonus, he "consumated" his marriage with other people in the room with he and his wife.
@@Michael_Chandler_Keaton The peasants were violent terrorists, why are you so upset that they were ordered to be killed?
@@Michael_Chandler_KeatonStop talking about things you dont have any idea. Greetings from Germany
Dr. Brown is an expert at talking around and around a point, but never actually addressing the issue. He's also condescending in his argument and tone. I hope he will prayerfully look into these concerns.
I have watched Michael Brown for over 4 years and I see the same thing with him like you do. He beats around the bush and never answers the question.
So condescending! it’s so painful to watch him talk to them like they’re children! Infuriating actually. I commend them.
As someone who has escaped this movement and was controlled and manipulated and suffered spiritual abuse by an "Apostle" who was untouchable, this is so disturbing. 😒Michael Brown is either completely clueless or he is a dangerous wolf. This interview makes me sick to my stomach. The leaders can gaslight all they want but everyone being led around by these guys know they are all affiliated with each other, they promote each other's books, they attend the same conferences, appear as guest on each other's shows and podcasts and every "Apostle and Prophet" you cannot question. Just because they changed the wording on their websites doesn't change the wording they use when they are giving you "The word of the Lord" This is most definitely a dangerous movement.
IMO Michael Brown is most probably a satanic mole in the church giving cover to false prophets, and “apostles “.
💯💯💯
You can’t be this clueless
Look into his so called revival.
Michael Brown and others,are definitely gas lighting! Making their opponents look like fools,who have no spiritual discernment. The NAR is just your imagination, it's not real!"
Excellent work. It is truly sad that a man so educated can remain so evasive. I’ve never seen a scholar claim to know so many men’s hearts yet continually claim ignorance of their ongoing works and twisted teachings. I pray the Lord will help Dr. Brown see his culpability in perpetuating the lie that is the one and only NAR.
Brown is a false prophet, he has prophesied in the name of The Lord things that did not come to pass in the timeframe he prophesied, the scriptures say have no fear of these wolves!!
@@camlarson2813wow, you people sound like a cult!!!!
If Brown is so ignorant of the facts concerning NAR, then how can he still be in the leading position he is still claiming.
Just because Michael says "im not here to debate" doesn't mean it's true
I hate phrases like that or "I don't wanna argue with you". When used by one who just finished preaching a point at their conversational partner, then closing off any direct disagreement ( in effect, the essence of free and open dialog ), it is a blatant form of control and manipulation. If meant to curb off hostility, then speak it out with a sense of generosity and mutual respect, i.e. "I wanna hear your points as well, whether we agree or disagree, and let's strive for conflict in a spirit of friendly regard for each other." And are we here to seek truth together or hear ourselves out loud for clicks?
Spot on. Plus he is argumentative.
@@GrantStanley2003 So to avoid "arguing" Dr Brown must acquiese and surrender his point?
Awesome written! @@machtnichtsseimann
he is a bad faith actor and perpetual victim.
MB to NAR leader: "are you NAR?"
NAR leader: "No"
MB to Doug/Holly: "You see, there is no NAR!"
Yeah forget what they write and their associates or what books they present forewords for. Head in the sand mentality.
Not quite how the conversation went, but ok....
😂😂😂 💯💯💯
@@gandalf0987 Pretty much
May God keep you dear brother Doug and sister Holly. Keep on with your diligent and rigorous research.
How do you find a middle ground in heresy? Pro tip: There is NO middle ground.
thats perfect!
Cessationism IS heresy, but I still try to find middle ground with them. They do have some good teachers on other stuff.
@@Michael_Chandler_Keaton Cessationism Vs Continuationism is a word game as well as theological. The modern day "restoring" the gifts means they think they ceased.
They pray declaring it is God's will. When it doesn't happen, they look for our failings bc they believe healing ís a part of the atonement, or, sometimes they do resign that maybe it was God's will, but that is generally considered downgrade Christian view They say more ppl are healed with them the Cessationists, as evidence they are right.
Whereas so called Cessationists believe God heals as He wills and His gifts did not cease. They simply are to pray with hope, be obedient to pray, call the elders, anoint with oil - and they see God heal, sometimes not.
It doesn't matter?
ruclips.net/video/bRBAq_mjLt4/видео.html
@@Michael_Chandler_Keaton I despise it, but I wouldn't quite call it "heresy." I agree with Roger Olson that it is "at least heterodox and unbiblical."
Thank you dear brother Doug and sister Holly for sticking to the term New Apostolic Reformation Movement. For not denying it, backed by rigorous research couched in brotherly truth and love.
Thank you Dr Brown for your participation.
I am a South African Christian. This is a valuable conversation. NAR churches are easily identifiable once one understands the core tenets. These tenets are regularly denied if one is in discussion with people who attend such churches, because of the semantics and "clever" rhetoric demonstrated by Dr Brown. That is the danger of the destructive nature of the NAR Movement, it is plain as day to those who investigate the phenomenon and like pinning jello to the wall in a discussion with someone who denies the existance thereof.
Well said!
Doug and Holly did their homework and Michael just says he knows these people personally. (Mike Bickle defense did not age well). Knowledge is not wisdom. And willful ignorance is not innocence.
Because Doug and Holly are the ones investing nearly 100% of their time into the research. They're not called to do what Dr Brown is doing, and Dr Brown is not called to do what they are doing. That should be easy to understand.
@e.m.8094 Do you really think Brown is called to be an apologist for all this stuff, considering the harm it has done?
@@e.m.8094that is obfuscation
Holly is wacky conspiracy theorist
Michael Browne should’ve been a defense attorney.
Three takeaways for me: (1). Dr Michael Brown just gave a masterclass in deflection! (2) I've only barely listened to Doug once before, but his conduct in this conversation has earned my respect. (3). What Daniel Kolenda said is about the most vile thing I've heard a Christian say about another Christian online (apart from Shamounian)
I watched this through American Gospel and was so irritated by Michael Brown. He did exactly as he did was Justin Peter’s debate. He provides cover for people who he should be critiquing and it’s wild.
Amen... If Michael Brown is actually not sure if Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland are evil false teachers, then frankly, I don't care what he says about anything.
@@coreybassard But you support JP's cessationism blashpemy and his "throw shade at others only" ministry? 🤷
@@e.m.8094 Cessationism is far from blasphemy. It’s evident, but misunderstood by people who are mislead. And before you go on about “cEsSaTiOnIsTs SaY gOd DoEsN’t Do MiRaClEs!!! 🫵🏾😲,” no true cessationist believes that. He absolutely does miracles and absolutely has divine providence, but NAR “prophets” and “apostles” have yet to show God’s miracles, as if they are theirs to begin with.
If NAR “ministries” were doing miracles, they ought to show them so that God would receive the glory, Amen? Instead, they harvest money from their congregants who are probably actually in need of God’s goodness, but are fooled into hyper spiritualism and emotions, not understanding the scriptures. If they(the congregants) knew the scriptures, they could see through the garbage.
NAR is a power scheme that puts people under the wrong subjection in the name of Yahweh. They do not keep the commandment “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.” These people abuse His name and abuse the scriptures to their benefit.
#showThetoes🦶🏻
@@e.m.8094 Also, it’s not about throwing shade. People always say he/we are divisive. Wrong. The people who are abusing the scriptures and God’s power are the ones dividing themselves from the truth. They are the divisive ones, like the Judaizers who came to preach a different gospel. It’s our duty to protect the faith. It’s been under attack as early as Peter, Paul, and the other Apostles who were beginning the ministry, which is why all the books of the New Testament have teachings against false teachers and teachings except Philemon.
@@coreybassard I'm saying that's basically all his does is sit around and watch videos looking for heresy, or his idea of it anyhow. I have yet to see any video of him where he does not bring up the "error" of another believer. I mean you don't see people posting videos about him and his blasphemous error of stating that gifts of the Spirit are not for today. I don't know of any of the early apostles whose entire ministry was devoted to heresy hunting.
Michael Brown's approach is absolutely outrageous. He knows better because he talks on the phone with NAR leaders. Who really cares what he talks with them? Is it provable? No! It is provable what NAR leaders publish, preach, teach and talk publicly
@@teotripo he doesn’t want you to look there though at the facts , he wants you to get emotional and don’t worry he has the holocaust card if nothing else works that’s like kryptonite to everyone
You can not reason with people like Michael Brown, it is like talking to a brick wall.
or slippery eel
He is either dishonest/liar or he is woefully inept. Either way he needs to remove himself from the public eye. He is not fit to be in his position .
@@matthewmoore8861 Perhaps you should read the title or listen to the video? They don't claim it to be an organization. It is a movement. You are either being dishonest/lying yourself or lost in your own rage. I was raised in the nar movement and had people refuse medication and die due to this false belief structure. Brown is wrong. First face this issue. You should think deeply about your own biases.
@@matthewmoore8861woe!!!! I didn't get the point of your 1st comment but this is pretty slanderous. Doug and Holly are speaking truth that all of us here in comments know to be true because we've all been in it and we know it. You obviously have not.
So you've had a conversation with him? I'd love to hear about that!
Brown gives the same argument he gave about the false teachers discussed in the cessation roundtable: "I know these people and they say they don't believe that...".
The issue has never been about what these false teachers CLAIM to believe, it's about what they ACTUALLY teach.
Does he ever believe that people lie?
Does he believe that the teachings among these people is what divides and damages the church?
According to Mr. Bown, no one can ever discern false teaching without KNOWING the teacher.
What they actually teach or what you think they teach
@@davidwireback8621 while there is no verse that specifically states visions and prophecies will cease, there is no verse that states they will continue.
We derive theological truths expressed clearly from Scripture or by good and necessary consequence can be deduced by Scripture (like the truth of the Trinity).
And two verses in Scripture (there are others but for YT sake) that imply that prophecies and revelations had a purpose that was FULLFILLED when Christ established the Church.
Hebrews 1:1-2 & 2Tim. 3:16-17.
Now you tell me, according to these verses WHY does the church NEED new Apostles and the prophecies, revelations, and visions they bring? Since Christ, who has spoken through his 12 disciples (all those who listen to them listen to Christ -Luke 10:16), and His disciple Paul writes in the power of the Holy Spirit that Scripture is SUFFICIENT to equip the church for every good work; WHY then, would the Holy Spirit contradict himself and send so called apostles that state we need more prophecies, revelation, and words of knowledge to equip us?
Oh, and by the way, in case you didn't know, people don't need to be clarifying teaching from the teacher every time there is a falsehood. Liers lie. Deceivers DECEIVE. They "repent" of their false teaching but then continue to teach it.
We didn't see Paul clarifying with Peter before calling him out on his falsehood, did we?
@@John-Christchurch-NZ if what I think they teach is what they teach, then why does it matter?
If I think they teach that people need to hear from God, and they teach they need to hear from God, then I'm accurate in what they teach, right?
What I think doesn't matter. What matters is - is what they teach in accord with Scripture?
Do we need new (big "A") Apostles to bring in new visions, revelations, and prophecies to equip the church? (And even Michael Brown would say yes, because he has given prophecies)
Not according to the Holy Spirit who says Scripture is sufficient to equip the church. The ministers of the church (little "a" apostles, evangelists, pastors, teachers, etc) are to give the full council of God found in his already written word.
It THOROUGHLY equips God's people.
So what about you?
Do you believe Scripture is sufficient or do you deny the Holy Spirit and want more than Christ himself and what He has graciously given you in his word?
I need to lay down after watching any debate with Michael Brown. He's exhausting.
Tell me about it!
God has mightily used Dr Brown to benefit thousands of us over the decades. People need to realize that he's not called to a full-time "finger pointing" ministry like some people are. Wink, wink.
@@davidwireback8621 So when Doug and Holly quote people from their books, sermons, and videos they are actually "spreading gossip." Got it.
Oh my gosh HE SURE IS?!!!! I can't even listen to him for 10 min and my hearts pounding and I'm enraged. I cannot stand his ongoing blind defense of this Wolfpack. He just talks in circles.
@@StevenKozarMessedUpChurchSteve you made this comment asking if Holly quoting books is spreading gossip to davidwireback .... But that comment is gone.
What did he say?
GLAD you are here.
Can't wait to hear your vid about this vid. I will wait for that for I simply cannot stand to listen to brown. Like I have a physical response that I cannot handle him or my pounding heart. I didn't make it past 15 min. And I took 2 breaks.
I really believe we need to just consider brown as a pagan and move on. Like why is everyone trying to convince him that he's in the NAR?!!
I serve as a pastor in a Baptist church in a small town in Serbia. Relatively recently, I found out that a conference called "Fivefold Ministry" was organized in a neighboring country (Croatia). A few months ago, the same conference was organized in Serbia, also under the same name. At this conference, the speakers, who are some of the most famous pastors in this area, were from the Pentecostal and charismatic churches. All the sermons are on YT, so we could listen to them. Through these sermons, the speakers claimed that God is restoring the offices of Apostles and prophets today, and that these are the people under whose authority all local churches should submit. Some speakers do not want to admit that they are part of the NAR, but they use terminology that is typical of this movement and represents its beliefs. I heard that they are planning to organize the same conference in other Balkan countries. The NAR belief has also reached the Balkans, so we have to recognize that this is a movement that is developing and growing.
I am a charismatic who prays in tongues and believes in the moves of God. I pray in tongues hours and hours at a time. I also left the NAR and WOF churches due to the carnality and hyperfaith. I would never send a new believer to one of them. It is important to allow the Holy Ghost and His gifts, and also to test and to discern.
@@limegreen90me too
@@limegreen90 sometimes when I do not know what to pray, I sit silently and ask the Holy Spirit to pray for me. I know He does even though I make no sounds.
The Sadducees were like this in the time of Christ. There play terminology and not admit they were part of the Sadducee order so they could go into temples and change them from within.
I did not even know Baptist churches existed in places like Serbia! We in the US have such little visibility of Eastern Europe that I just thought most everything would be Catholic or Orthadox. Does your church have website so i could see some pictures?
I respect and admire the way Holly and Doug stand their ground . I know both parties feel deeply convicted and it can be hard to remain calm and easy to speak over others. I especially think that Brown is prone to talk over others so I like when Doug or Holly politely insist on finishing their thought/point.
THE TRUTH DOES NOT HIDE FROM THE LIGHT. Dr. Brown is the number one defender of himself.. I dont get how he knows everyone but knows nothing of what they believe... but yet puts it as one of his job descriptions.. He does not defend thee Faith, only his and his friends faith....VERY RED FLAGS.
There is so much abuse happening with this NAR movement it’s heartbreaking.
No one knows what a NAR movement is lol
@@dwaynethomas4622 exactly it’s wacky conspiracy theory!!!!
Like what?
@@PillCozbee did you listen to this podcast? Subject such as authority, alignment, coverings, and more…
Garbage. Abuse happens in all denominations.
we are meant to judge them by their fruit, not by personal friendships or how sincere they are. These false teachers and apostles are destroying whole families with their lies and confusion and they need to be marked and avoided. Birds of a feather flock together. He imparts the same spirit that they do that makes people moan, groan, shake, twitch and flap uncontrollably.
Australian here, I got out of a nar church ten years ago and am still dealing with false theology in my brain and heart
Keep searching the Truth and asking The Lord to lead you into Truth and help you! He will! I am also still being cleansed from the false NAR teachings myself and still wrestling through stuff but over the hill already and in stability and seeing The Lord lead me according to scripture.
Bring everything to prayer an scripture 🙏
@@davidwireback8621 hi David, for me it was being told through prophecy that my dreams would come true if I had enough faith and rested in god (rather than taking physical steps in reality to make them happen, they never even came close to happening).2nd being told to submit to a leader because she (I know now that female pastors is unscriptural) is the apostle and hears from god better than me or anyone in our church, even tho she was quite a horrible person which I could go into but won’t. 3rd is that if prayers aren’t being answered like healing, financial breakthrough etc it’s because I didn’t have enough faith or pray hard or declare hard enough…nowadays I pray very quite and ‘dry’ payers and you know what? God is answering me, I now have a business and my family pray every night for about 30 seconds and he hears those prayers that I need things to sell from my shop, god is god not because I have enough faith or pray long hypotonic prays over and over, he is right here with me and I don’t need perform for him or anyone, I could talk about this for hours lol
Same here…hang in there…detox in the word of God
Same here. The teachings I submitted to have impacted my prayer life, the twisting of scripture remains a battle at times
I am only 11 minutes in and my heart is pounding!!! I'm ALREADY SICK of BROWN and his ridiculous defense and complete ignoring of the NAR !!!
Hes a blind as a bat and wouldn't know anything NAR if it bit him. Cuz he's IN IT and he can't recognize it.
Let's keep BROWN out of these round tables from now on. Why are we TRYING SO HARD to convince this wolf that hes part of an abusive wolf ministry?
We know he's a NAR wolf so let's move on.
I personally don't want to hear one more word from him. I have grown from having no opinion to severely disliking this guy .
Brown has a very subtle way of self aggrandizing. Holly and Doug are genuinely humble.
Agreed, and he uses huge emotional words to exaggerate what the opposition is saying. He really tries to manipulate the emotions of listeners, just like they do in the non-existent NAR.
Charismatic here. I am overjoyed to see the Fruit of the Spirit in Holly and Doug in this video.
@@Summer_Daze I’m surprised he hasn’t polled out the holocaust card like he does most of his stuff. although he may have, I just cannot listen to the whole thing because Dr. Brown will have you talking in circles
Brown, when he says something it is gospel he doesnt like to be challenged because of his academic background.
@@markscott4830 he is not rebuke plain heresy. Like the Toronto blessing whatever that was called where people were acting like animals barking like dogs, howling like wolves.. he refuses to call heresy out. And most of the time he embraces it.
Excellent job by Doug and Holly. I pray for Michael Brown to see the error of his ways
The error of his ways? If you watch the whole thing, he obviously doesn't agree with certain statements and viewpoints, his whole objection is he doesn't see it as a unified movement. Or are you referring to something completely different aside from this discussion?
Charismatic here. I left the WOF/NAR movement after all the false words, hyper faith, and money grubbing. I believe in the moves of the Holy Ghost. I will never attend church again due to all I experienced that was false. My family was destroyed. If the greedy will not inherit the kingdom, and we're not supposed to even eat with those who says they are believers but who are greedy, why is ANYONE attending Benny Hinn's meetings? Mike blocked me on twitter for asking such questions, saying I was nuts.
That's fair
I’m a former Pentecostal and have found a church that does expository preaching \ teaching. You can find a great church that is not WOF / NAR /
hyper charismatic, that teaches verse by verse through a book of the Bible (expository preaching). I have learned
so much through this kind of preaching, and no longer seek “experiences.” I feel so much closer to God through studying the Bible, and not chasing experiences. Have you read books by Costi Hinn, Benny Hinn’s nephew who has come out of the WOF?
@@valeriehancock1724 Yes, I just cannot stomach church anymore. People are just not genuine in most USA churches. Even the ones that teach the bible. This is because most churches are filled with eternal babies and pew sitters that live in carnality. They sit and listen but never grow . I have had enough of it all.
“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.”
Hebrews 10:24-25 ESV
I’ve also been hurt by the many people in Pentecostal/charismatic churches but would encourage you to seek a good biblically sound church
@@josemolina8230 Been saved decades. I don't live in the USA anymore. If I did, I wouldn't entrust myself to any church or any person in a church. Back in Paul's day, the church was the church, not a way for ministers to get rich. USA church is a show, an agenda, a program, not a people truly following Jesus. It's all about the money.
There is Discernment, and then there is Michael Brown Discernment. True Discernment is knowing the difference between Right and Almost Right (almost doesn't cut it). Anything that deviates from the True Gospel of Christ, "Christ and Him Cruicified", anything more and added is another gospel. Inserting self into scripture and going beyond what is written in scripture is dangerous ground and it is what is described in the word as being another gospel, another Jesus, and another spirit that accompanies it. Reminds me of Bethel, Hillsong, Elevation (Steven Furtick).
Thank you Doug & Holly for standing up for Biblical truth. God bless
At min 47 Dr. Michael Brown’s appeal to authority.
Just goes to show that someone can have more degrees than a thermometer and not have an ounce of discernment.
😂 more degrees than a thermometer. I'll have to remember that one. Yeah, he lacks discernment.
Doug and Holly you guys are awesome 👌 may the good Lord continue to use you for His kingdom
I have over the years have lost all respect for DrMB and for him to defend these hucksters year over year....it is horrendous and he should be ashamed and he should repent
Really appreciate Doug's demeanor in this discussion. Excellent job.
Interestingly, as I watched, I felt like Dr Brown presented himself the most humbly and kind mannered. Listen closely to the interactions.
@@e.m.8094 oh, I listened closely. I also came out of the NAR movement he insists is a myth. It's not, and this sounds more like damage control on Dr. Brown's part than anything else.
You very clearly and strictly wrongly defend Brown
@@e.m.8094 Doug remained calm and emotionless, Brown got visibly upset when Doug dismantled Brown's attempted 'I know all these people better than you' defense.
@@de1623 Ummm..
Doug interrupts Dr. Brown.
Dr Brown: "Can I finish please?"
Doug: "NO!"
I would have walked away at that point.
Brown keeps protecting the wolves, false apostles and false prophets of the NAR. If he quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck - clearly he is not a duck.
I laughed out loud reading the last part of your sentence…Michael Brown is the Master Evader when it comes to his friends.
@@frizzyrascal1493You do realize that most of the other well-known Christian leaders are not screaming "heretic" at everyone that Doug and Holly says are NAR, right? Why aren't you slamming them? 🤔
No he doesn't. Dr Brown is the voice of reason and truth. Holly and Doug are the divisive ones with the "NAR hysteria."
Not listening Huh
Certainly not what I hear
Look at the fruit of his life and ministry
I grieve when I see the fruit of Doug and Holly's ministry
particularly in the false accusations against Men and Women of God whose theology and practice they don't like
and the attacks that arise in the comments
@@John-Christchurch-NZ Fruit of whose life and ministry. You're statement isn't clear
There is a chronic need for Mike to confront his friends with their false teachings. If he would be valiant for the truth the Doug's and Holly's of the world would rejoice.
How did people comment before it even appeared?!!!!
Thank you Brandon for all the hard work.
Thank you to Holly and Doug for their tireless research and for being assertive without being jerkish.
Grateful to you all for this round table.
There was a notification with comment section. A trailer.
Thanks. I had watched on AGTV, but I’m here for the comments section 😊
Loved the discussion - as much as we respect leaders within the body, we must equip and immerse ourselves into the word of God to better discern.
I don't know how Brown is still taken seriously by anyone.
Oh there’s people in this comment section who can’t refute any of the arguments laid out before us so they just attack Doug and Holly. It’s very telling to me tbh
Ignorance is rampant unfortunately
The more I’ve listened to Mike I’ve noticing that he has two built in escape routes when discussing NAR and the charismatic chaos. 1. Play dumb to what you are being confronted with, and 2. Let everyone know your friends with the said person so it’s automatically fine. He’s just being intellectually dishonest. He knows.
I'd agree with that summary.
He does indeed know.
The idea (quoting Wollnau) that the 'Seven Mountains Mandate' is fictional, i.e. that it's _not_ part of NAR doctrine, isn't worthy of a moment's consideration.
Johnson, Valotton, Wollnau, _and many other NAR leaders_ , all write on this, speak on this, and promote it.
The thing I find truly disappointing (I am no longer shocked, as I've heard it so many times), is the refrain, "If that's _really_ what they're saying, I'd call them out on it... but they're not."
It's usually accompanied by a "black-is-really-white" refutation of something plain and obvious.
Both of these roundtables… NAR, and the one with Peters/Osman have been fantastic! Brown and Storms had it handed to them and then this one was excellent as well! I didn’t think it possible to be as good as the first one, but I was wrong. I see now why Michael Brown quit on you guys, his obfuscation skills were put to the test… great work!! God bless 🙏
Mark Chironna's Endorsement of "Modern Day Apostles" by Che Ahn:
“Ché Ahn is a global voice with an apostolic sphere and measure entrusted to him by the triune God. I deeply love and appreciate him for who he is and what he carries. I love his heart, his passion, and his tenacity to see the fullness of Christ made manifest in the people of God. I count him a dear, dear friend and companion in Christ. It is difficult to be around Ché and not catch the fervor of his passion and hunger for Christ and the eternal purpose of the Father. Ché is persuaded, as am I, that coming to “the measure of the stature of the fullness that belongs to Christ” in the church, the Body of Christ, cannot happen without the full functioning of apostolic and prophetic ministry. It is as Paul tells us-foundational to all that Christ has done and continues to do.
Modern-Day Apostles will provide-in a practical, down-to-earth, boots-on-the-ground way (rooted in his extensive global reach and experience of many, many fruitful years of Kingdom service to and for Christ)-a potent, relevant, and detailed explanation of what apostolic ministry and function is all about. It addresses succinctly both from Scripture and church history the unfortunate misunderstandings that have lingered in the Body of Christ because of the doctrine of cessationism. The ascended Christ gave gifts, the first among which are apostles, to His people for the building up of the Body so that we can fulfill what is required to make disciples of all nations. Those who contend that apostolic ministry, function, and expression ended after the first-century church, do great harm and damage to the sacred text, as well as to the Body of Christ.
Apostles are still here. You can recognize them by the way they function. Ché gives you key “markers” to recognize their presence in the Body of Christ. By the time you are finished reading this book, you will have a renewed and intensified fire in your heart by the Spirit to pursue Christ’s desire for the nations and become part of that growing army that wants to see the nations filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord. If it moves you to be more in love with Jesus and to want to get more actively involved with the men and women who are carrying the torch of the testimony as it was carried since the days of Christ’s ascension and the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, Ché’s book will be a gift that keeps on giving, even to succeeding generations. Let the church always be reforming, and let revival fires burn!”
-Dr. Mark J. Chironna
Church On The Living Edge
Mark Chironna Ministries
Excerpt From
Modern-Day Apostles
Ché Ahn
I believe we should have apostles today but to CORRECT FALSE TEACHING such as but not limited to NAR. And these apostle are NOT all the foundation but to simply uphold the position and correct the bad actors.
An Apostle had to walk with The Lord Christ Jesus for 3 years, used the Apostle gifts of miracles and True healings ( raising the dead, etc..), and must have seen the Risen The Lord Christ Jesus. Not one single human being meets that requirement today. You build the foundation once you don't keep building the foundation.
1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
NAR is the epitome of arrogance, pride and blasphemy!
Almost as much as the Cessationism movement!!!
@@matthewmoore8861what exactly is your problem?
@@destinycoach5 You can’t discuss this with reason & logic? You only attack, your side has elements of cult behavior!
And you’re the “destiny coach”???
@@matthewmoore8861no way
@@Brianhouston-d6y100% your camp meets many of the markers of a cult!!!
Wolves tend to run in packs. Yes, the company you keep is important.
There is a "cottage industry" of those that get honorariums from NAR churches they are "in relationship" with. John Bevere, James Goll, Robert Henderson, Danny Silk, Chuck Pierce, on and on... Whether they are teaching "covering theology"or giving specific prophetic words about a local pastor's new level of authority, their teaching and/or prophecy works to shore up the supposed extraordinary "authority" of those that have invited them, paid their honorarium, hotel, etc. It's a symbiotic relationship.
Christian leaders that at one time were opposed to the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church, now seem to pragmatically be willing to embrace it.
Oh boy, I can not wait until people disect this. Many, if not most, of Michael Brown's arguments did not hold water. Sort of reminds me of clouds without water.
@@davidwireback8621that's actually strawmanning Holly and Dougs work. Although they'll welcome to sit down with false teachers, Bill Johnson, Kris Vallaton and Mike Bickle etc, they don't necessarily need to. Bill Johnson, Bickel, Hammond, Peter Wagner etc have all written and filmed teachings that distort the NT teachings on apostles and prophets, and the sign gifts (healing, signs and wonders). The problem is, their doctrines has influenced unsuspecting Christians and infiltrated churches with false promises of prosperity and healing. To that extent, Holly and Doug are warning the Church of this growing movement that has destroyed lives and stunting the churches witness of the gospel to a watching a world.
@@davidwireback8621secondly, the five fold ministry is a false doctrine that came out of a exegetical interpretation of Ephesians 4:11. The first mistake is making an assumption apostle, prophet, shepherd etc is not a governing office. Paul does not say that in the text. In verse 7, he said "Christ gave.." these are Christo centric gifts that equip the church for the work of ministry so that the Christian is not toss to and throw by different doctrines. It is never about apostles and prophets governing the church..
They ALWAYS say "the LORD is about to...." and it never comes...
Michael Brown is so patient and humble in the face of people who appear to be fault finding and head hunting.
I'm very impressed with how he carried himself in this situation
Note: In Mark Chironna's final answer to Brown's questions, he affirms that NAR exists and that it is a movement with "massive influence."
"7) Again, navigating these waters is difficult because there are many wonderful men and women in the NAR. Preserving the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace is not always easy. Moving forward, due to the massive influence of the movement, there will have to be many conversations, even difficult ones. However, in the current climate, where tensions run high, it may take another generation before it all gets sorted out and genuine repentance is present."
@@davidwireback8621wow. I only ban people from our page who lie and slander, or treat secondary issues as heresy. I also don’t misrepresent anyone in editing. People claim that all the time because they can’t defend falsehoods, or handle truth (very similar to your “keep your mouth shut” comment for merely posting what Mark wrote.
Despite the huge differences, I admire the respectful atmosphere of this dialogue.
I have experienced this first hand as a worship pastor for 15 years as my pastor prophet became ordained as an apostle. The church slippery slope of false doctrine might have been more subtle, but once he took the apostle title it moved down hill quickly to false teaching openly .
Holly spoon fed direct exact examples of people in the NAR movement, and all Brown did was ignore all of it and to respond with saying he knows pastors that he won’t name that disagree, so therefore it’s not real.
With Brown refusing to accept truth about false teachers and his teaching that false prophesies today are ok, he is disqualified to be in ministry and needs to repent.
Ten minutes into it and Michael Brown has already DARVOed and played victim. He is so good at gaslighting.
NAR has been able to merge every false teaching: prosperity gospel, new age, false prophetic, false apostles, manifest sons of god false doctrine, Latter Rain false doctrine, and soon merge back with Catholicism.
Agreed
@@Summer_DazeHolly & Doug couldn’t even define the NAR, after 3hours, it sounds like a conspiracy theory!
I think that's part of the problem. NAR could include anything and everything...or it could be defined quite narrowly. I can't speak for everyone everywhere, but in my area it's been used as a catch-all term for any charismatic doctrine or practice that someone disagrees with. Not sure what the best solution is, but that's what's happened around here so far
@@matthewmoore8861 it’s in the name, the churches that have Apostles and Prophets leading the church. As per CP Wagner these offices have been restored. I don’t know why the name of the movement is such an issue for Dr Brown as the name was coined by those who are in it. Like the Demon Slayers call themselves Demon Slayers and don’t have a problem being called Demon Slayers. If you are referred to as an Apostle why do you care that the collective name is New Apostolic Reformation?
@@matthewmoore8861 the conspiracy theory is to not believe that there’s an NAR that exists. Everyone of their leaders out in the open accepts their apostleship or their prophetic gifting even Chris Valatine says that it’ll reshape Christianity, as if it needed that. Daniel Kalenda, who’s out front along with Brown that says that the NAR doesn’t exist they’re both in Collusion with each other.
Love these guys holding his feet to the fire! 🔥
I'm so happy you pushed back whenever Brown used his typical tacticts.
Michael Brown seems to have a problem with hearing things according to the way they've been said and recorded..
Dr.Brown : Used the word "I" about one thousand time's
Doug and Holly: Used the word "I" Zero
“Knowing these people personally…”
What a problematic argument!! MB may think he knows someone personally, but don’t forget how strongly Sam Storms defended Mike Buckle because he knew that man so well.
I wish Dr Brown would stop answering every question by “These people have good hearts.” This is not a biblical statement. Personally, I’m part of a NAR Recovery group on FB. So much trauma and tragedy through generations of families.
Also - Why is he answering for everyone else? Are they too cowardly to ‘stand up for what they believe’? He’s become their whipping boy.
I read Doug and Holly’s book. In no way do they even indicate or suggest that all people in the NAR movement use the Passion Translation as Michael Brown says he thinks it comes across in the book. Honestly listening to Michael Brown here gives me a headache.
Thank you for sharing this, AGTV!!!!!!!!!!!
I’ve read 3 or 4 of the books from
Bethel, visited, and then went to their “healing rooms” a friend was an intern there that we visited and student and also followed their guide books. So it’s funny to me that they deny this when it’s in all there books and teachings.
God saved me out of this movement in great detail and it was His mercy and grace and love to do so.
Dr. Brown is completely in denial. I’ve been in these movements as a full believer in them and he is the one that has a misunderstanding of the facts and reality.
Thankyou Doug and Holly. You were respectful and thoughtful in the way this was conducted. It’s unfortunate that MB didn’t have the same respect and care for you and others who have been hurt by this unbiblical movement.
It seems as if Micheal keeps thinking he’s the standard, He thinks that if he knows somebody personally, therefore, they can’t be a bad guy. He use that same reasoning with my Mike Bickle that line of reasoning didn’t age well.
I had a friend that attends Gateway Church in Texas. He used to boast that they were under an apostle Jack Hayford, that was called the modern day Apostle Paul. He didn't know he was in a NAR "church". It doesn't mean that he wasn't in a NAR church.
Gateway is a hot mess!
Brown really doesn't care. He is talking in circles. He is not getting what Doug is putting out there. I love Doug and Holly. So respectful and wise in how they are handle. It isn't a mischarcterization. Brown stating they are being demonized is the same as him stating that some claim that are condeming these leaders to hell. No o ne can do that.
Glad to be out of the NAR movement. Was clueless how terrible it was! I have more peace and comfort sticking with truth of God’s Word. I had to unravel unstable doctrine that goes against the truth! It was so heart breaking that I was so uninformed. Stick with what has worked for 2000 years true truth! Thank you for doing this round table. Reassurance to follow the Holy Spirits prompting! Sadly not many Bible teaching churches out there! Praying for all! Sad to see Christians following such people instead of Jesus the only one that saves! No need to chase apostles and so called prophets. They did not get COVID or anything else. Baffles my mind now how they can so easily be swayed with the wind.
Seems like NAR is following the same playbook as Word of Faith. Deny the existence of the movement and then you won't be held accountable for your false doctrine.
I would not believe the NARly folks that would say, “I am not NAR.” This is such a deceptive movement. If they speak to you directly and say, “you are misrepresenting me,” and “I believe the essential Christian truths.” Don’t believe it. Look at their sermons, writings, teachings. They never emphasize Christ and his gospel, and once out of 100 sermons you might hear it. Their focus is special revelation, dreams, visions, words of knowledge, healings, miracles, etc… but when confronted, they have two faces. “yes we are orthodox.” But in their practice and teaching this is not true. This is why the NAR is so deceptive. It’s the new Mormonism. And guilt by association is true, and not a fallacy. Check out Psalm 1.
I attended Dr. Brown's church in Concord, NC for about 6 years. He is not a deceiver but may see the best in people rather than the worst. That could be working against him, although I disagreed with things like "fire tunnels" and eventually left the church, I can say that the people there were some of the most on-fire people for Jesus I have met to this day. I learned many practical things that I still practice. Although I don't agree with all of his theology, I can say that he is honest and loves the Lord with all his heart. Under his leadership and the leadership of FIRE church I never saw even a hint of abuse. Again, I can't say that I agree with everything he believes, but I can say that his character is one of a man after God's own heart.
Please help me understand how he can be a man after God's own heart & negate what is going on in a lot of these churches & the amount of hurt it's doing?
3:11:00
Dr. Brown: "They're not calling what YOU'RE calling the New Apostolic reformation. They're calling this little thing within this larger thing the..."
He was literally about to admit that people he knows are using the title NAR, yet he says its a myth. He talks out of both sides of his mouth.
Wow….anyone who has ever heard Lance Wallnau speak…for over 60 seconds…would “swear” his language supports domination in the seven areas of culture!! Having been aware of LW for several years now..and listening to many hours of his National philosophy and theology…he has been consistent in his delivery of dominion beliefs.
I follow Lance on Facebook because he posts great memes and some good news items. I never listen to his preaching.
"The NAR is not a movement!"
"That's not the case, #1, most of these people are very much absorbed in their world and their movement..."
I caught that too! And he kept calling his friends "father's of movements." So...like the NAR movement?
Yea I caught that too
The fact that Brown called the Protestant reformation a restoration movement to try and support all this really says it all.
Let’s not forget that Brown has a demonstrated track record of clearly lacking discernment.
Michael Brown’s game plan: Dodge dodge dodge dodge
Yeah the evidence was overwhelming against his position and they called him out on that.
Some in this comment section just don’t like it
Doug was great around 50:00 mark. Did not let Brown play the 'I know these people better than you' card.
Michael brown has said the same thing over and over. He’s given clear evidence of something false and just says “if it’s true how your representing it then I agree, but I just haven’t done the research myself”. You really can’t get anywhere with that..
When Michael Brown is addressing things outside of the Church, he is generally spot-on. But whenever it comes to anything remotely close to questioning charismatic/pentecostal personalities or practices, he becomes a full-blown propagandist who sees no wrong in anything.
That it took a video by Mike Winger to get him to finally address Benny Hinn, when Chris Rosebrough, Justin Peters, and Steven Kozar had demonstrated the EXACT SAME problems many times before is very telling about his unquestioning allegiance to unscriptural doctrines and practices. Chris Rosebrough calls Brown the "Doctor of Obfuscation," and I'm inclined to agree with him.
If Brown exercised as much discernment with regard to his own continuationist circles as he does with secular matters, cessationists might actually take his responses a bit more seriously.
Chris Rosebrough is a name caller, just look at his absurd thumbnails, Mike Winger is in a different league.
Seeing as how I have seen nearly every video Chris has put out, your accusation of him being a name caller is slanderous and a lie, sir.
Absolutely 💯
Those who have been negatively impacted by NAR are acutely aware. Conversely, those who profit financially from NAR often engage in semantic manipulation.
An extremely relevant and provable question that was not asked is the following:
If the association with the “NAR” is such an unfair and broad brush (and I am not a cessationist), why do all of these people promote, associate agreeably with, and otherwise employ the terminology that would lead to the conclusion that they should be included? I believe it is obvious that they want to have it both ways.
They happily participate in their own association with the teachings because it connects them to the audience who are touched by or influenced by it. They want to be included and to be thought of as being part of this “next wave/movement of revival, etc. And for obvious reasons; Namely, Influence, exposure, and other benefit
of those things. Charismatic preachers and teachers refuse to dare call out any name or false teaching that would injure their promotion or inclusion in the “Fresh anointing, Dominion, Next Wave, Manifest Sons, Open Heaven, Prophetic Mantle” movements.
Meanwhile Dr Brown, who comes closer to “calling out false teaching” expends copious effort to defend the individuals who, in a private conversation may say they disagree. I do not envy him in his undertaking to prop up a system that God himself continues to expose to the light of day.
There can be no revival as long as the Copeland/Hinn/ Johnson/Howard-Brown type leaders are playing both ends against the middle
It's because of the power & greed. The absolute abuse & misuse of the 501c3.
Whatever you think of Doc Brown -- and my views are mixed -- you should give him at least *some* credit for doing the sit-down, doing it outnumbered 2-1, and for giving permission for its release after his withdrawal from the project.
Overseeing 7,000 churches?!?! Definitely a red flag 🚩
BITE- behavioral control, information control, theocratic control, emotional control: ways to identify a cult.
I wish Sam Storms had shown up with Michael Brown to say, “I know these people to the depths of their souls, and y’all are just wrong about them.” That would be a real defense
It's a complete waste of time talking to Michael Brown about NAR. He says that he is a bridge builder, but in reality, he is a false hood denier. He just will not call out the wolves.
Having been in the charismatic movement for a short while, I can see how Michael Brown wants to give the benefit of the doubt to many of these leaders because he developed friendships with them and in many cases they are very personable, even if sometimes very wrong. The problem is Michael Brown has moved on to other movements and research endeavors while still desiring an association with these people because they remind him of his early spiritual years. The problem is he no longer has the luxury to defend these leaders being a leader himself. He needs to call a spade a spade and be bold, pointing out the error of his friends, because he has been given much, and much is expected of him.
I am now to the point where I would very much caution people to listen to anything Dr. Brown says.
Based on what? He remained consistent to his point which was: When you make the brush so wide, there are going to innocent people hit.
The reality is that Doug and Holly didn’t cate about this point or the facts he presented because they have already decided that the people they have called out are wrong.
The reality of it is that not all charismatics are NAR, but all NAR’s are charismatic (though I don’t believe it is as mainstream or popular as people make it). The problem is that, as much as Doug and Holly say they try to create nuance- they have colleagues like Justin Peters who call every believer of apostles and prophets associated with NAR and false narratives are created.
Discernment is fine, but unequal weights and measures veiled in discernment is not.
@@zachmando013
He defends Sod Roth? Massive heresy.
He has some massive discernment problems
@5Solas1Truth Is your reasoning for hating him that he doesn't speak bad about certain people who have some errors? Do you have anything more concrete?
@@Deagle-lj7tv
Never said I “hate” him so let’s start there.
The problem is he is afraid to put obvious false teachings. Scripture time and again demands us to.
@5Solas1Truth That's not true, he doesn't want to risk bareing false witness thats why.