he probably lives in Australia.. we don't have much choice.. In Perth the casino offer 10% at $15 cap.. but if you play at the pubs its 25 cap or even 50 cap in some places. The problem is that in Perth there is only one casino so there is no competition.. having said that though at the pubs sometime there really are alot of drunk idiot out there who are basically throwning money at you
Siim: We can add it to the list, sure. Just remember, 1/2 live is the smallest game in most rooms, just like 1c/2c is the smallest game in many online rooms. The smaller the game, the higher the WR potential since that game is usually going to have the largest recreational density compared to higher games. Also, SplitSuit discusses variance in the Bankroll Management video and there is an excellent article about variance on our site: www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/other/variance/
Some of these recreational player make some crazy plays though.. I won a big pot ( about $300 dollar which is fairly big for 1/2) with Q J on a A K 10 J 2 rainbow board.. simply by betting every street hard.. and I get called all the way to the river by K 7 off suit. Some of these recreational players literally throw money at you with some of the most absurd plays.
My guess is that the $25 rake game was from a home game of a state where there are no casinos. I've seen games where they rake $50 max in Houston. It's crazy how the players don't have a problem with it.
They have a problem with it.. they just have no choice.. but some of these games really had a lot of drunk idiots that are literally throwing away money. and of course even with a max $50 rake..in some of these games the pot never really gets bigger than say $200 dollars..
I think the person that asked you this question left out the fact that he was playing in an underground game. Undergrounds are a totally different animal, yes the house is making a killing on the rake but there's a reason for this and these games can still be very profitable. A good underground game generally revolves around 1 or 2 whales that the person running the game has somehow got to attend their game (could be discount on buy in, letting a whale play on credit, a ride to and from the game is a given, they get whatever they want because the success of the game depends on them). In these games you just have to look at the big picture, house rakes 5K/night, whales lose on average 10K, 5K divided up between 7 other players, about $714 each. Another thing to remember here is that some of the money you win off the whales will actually come out of the rake in the form of giving the whales a couple buy ins on "sheet", they know they might never collect but it keeps the game going so don't hate on the guys running the game, it's not easy to keep a good game going.
Good points. Playing with a 10% rake wouldn't be too awful, but when half the players buy in for only 40 big blinds I know the hourly rate is very small.
In columbus ohio we have 1 casino, the rake is 10% capped at $6. $1 for the bad beat jackpot, and $1 for a tip if you win the pot. this is for $1/$2 stakes. Is this good? Also, if there is no flop, there is no rake. At 2:09 James says capped at $4 or $5 is he still talking about the $2/$5 game?! Thanks.
+Justin Giglio the capped at $4 or $5 is typical at both 1/2 and 2/5. Your game could be beatable if the field is soft enough...though the structure is VERY close to being a turnoff.
I have a question about the rake. At my local casino, it's capped at $15 for 1/2 and $20 for 2/4. I thought this was normal but reading these comments, it seems way too much. $5 seemed really low, however could this be because you are expected to tip in America, and your dealers get paid poorly? In Australia the dealers are paid decently and tipping is non existent. For casinos with $5 rake, how much do you tip the dealer? And are there any other costs? Eg do you have to pay for a seat or anything. I'll add that $15 Australian is $10 American and $20 Australian is about $13 American
$15 and $20 rake are unbeatable. Of course we need dealers to be compensated fairly - but that can be done in a way that doesn't make the game impossible to profit in. Typically you'll see $1-$5 tips for pots won. You typically don't pay for a seat or anything like that and there are no other house costs (unless things like BBJ are being taken)
Ok. Thanks for you help. I'll have a chat to some people and see what I can do to get the rake down. I'll add that the game isn't unbeatable though. The players I'm against (on the 1/2 tables) are not very good, and it's very easy to profit. And on the 2/4 tables, the players are tougher, but after 10pm everyone is deep and the average pot size is $500. So a $20 rake isn't an issue. But at the start of the night it clearly is. Thanks again for your help and all your videos are really great :)
I would say 6-7$ a hand in California at 1-3 or 2-3 stakes is usually normal. That 6 or 7 comes in only when you make it to the flop. There are no percentages from my understanding.
What's worse, the 10% rake capped at $25 or the 4% rake uncapped I hear about in Europe? I guess with cap at $25 you want to play high stakes, and with the uncapped 4% you want to play the smallest game in the house.
Hello James!! I also need to know if my local rake is too high. 10% with a $15 cap on 1/3 (buy in $100 - $300). I'm wondering just how bad that is? ...and does a good game justify a bad rake? Usually at least a few deep stacks ($700 - $1200) consistently soft tables, and ALWAYS at least a few fish who just won't stop rebuying for 40BBs... opinions appreciated, peace
hey splitsuit! As I made my research on online poker, I found that pretty much any positive bb/100 (hand) is considered good. People who play online poker for living have said that they estimate their true winrate to be 4-6 bb/100 (sample size is over 100,000s of hands) Ok one can beat 2NL and 5NL something like ~10+ bb/100, but as soon as you climb up, the regs just take their cut as well. I haven't played live cash, but playing live ~40 hands per hour, winning 8 bb ... that makes .... 20 bb/100!? - insane!? Can you make in depth video about winrate and variance? I just can't get my head around it.
40 hands per hour in a live NL game with six or more players is a stone cold impossibility. Even 30h/hr is damned near impossible. If you see an average of 25, consider yourself blessed. 20 is probably on the high side (though not by much). If you don't believe me, watch a nine or ten handed .25/.50 or .50/1 ONLINE game. Depending on how many players are multi-tabling you'll see anywhere from 45-60 hands per hour - this in a game with no shuffling, no fills, no summoning of the floor to settle a dispute, and no two minute (or longer) trips to the tank when a nit is holding the second nuts and looking at a huge bet. FYI: If you ever find a 1/2, 1/3, or 2/5 game that's producing anywhere near 30 hands per hour, my suggestion would be that you GTFO - and quickly. Though there's no quantifiable relationship between game speed and player competency, players that are alert enough to keep a game moving at this speed are extremely likely to be at least modestly skilled. * Disclaimer: The preceding applies to all games up to an including 2/5, and all but the rarest of 5/10 games. Having never played bigger than this I can't say how quickly the games move, though I'd be surprised if they moved that much faster, if for no other reason than at thesxe stakes its wholly reasonable to take a little extra time even on a preflop call.
You can absolutely make that much because players are quite bad. Having said that though, not many people have even played 10 - 20k hands live so sample sizes aren't the best - but if you're tracking it and you're doing well consistently, 7-10bb/hour is very possible.
It really means capped at $25 dollar a hand. The problem is that in Australia there is only one casino so there is no choice... Although at crown ( the only casino) is 10% capped at $15 per hand. He is probably playing at the pubs where the rake is capped at $25 per hand.. or if he plays at the APL its capped at $50 a hand.. although it kind of irrelevant since the games that the pubs very rarely have pots that go over $200 dollars. The upside to playing at pubs is there really are alot of drunks out there espically at pubs with a TAB (horse betting) since those people tend to gamble alot more
10% with $25 CAP rake is just absolutely insane. Let's be honest, if only 5-10% of players are winners in the long run with a normal rake of $4-5, with a rake of $25, I would be shocked if more than 2% of the players are long term winners and they certainly aren't winning much.
' *People who play online poker for living have said that they estimate their true winrate to be 4-6 bb/100 (sample size is over 100,000s of hands)* ' You cant compare online with live poker.. since you can multi table on online .. playing 4 tables at 4 bb/100 is the same as playing one table live at 20bb/100
Just went with minimum buy in 1/2 no limit last night with 60$ and cashed out with 380$ within 4 hours. I’ve also taken 60$ to 600$ within 2 hours at same casino before. I’d say top of range 1/2 hourly no limit is closer to 80$ per Hour. Stacking one person per hour could be greater than 100$ per hour at a 1/2 no limit table where people call you with Ace Shit off suit
Just wondering dose that include tipping.. I am from Australia were we the dealers are not allow to accept tips.. what is the recommended tip in the US. I agree though the rake is absurd in Australia
badpanda84 My coach says tip 3 max to avoid being a degen, but I break that quite a bit. Sometimes I tip 0 as well for smaller pots or splits, it depends. But usually I tip 2-3 dollars a hand.
25 CAP??? You kidding me, my local casino was 5 cap on the 2/5 game.
he probably lives in Australia.. we don't have much choice.. In Perth the casino offer 10% at $15 cap.. but if you play at the pubs its 25 cap or even 50 cap in some places.
The problem is that in Perth there is only one casino so there is no competition.. having said that though at the pubs sometime there really are alot of drunk idiot out there who are basically throwning money at you
If the rake is too high, it's actually better.
Siim: We can add it to the list, sure. Just remember, 1/2 live is the smallest game in most rooms, just like 1c/2c is the smallest game in many online rooms. The smaller the game, the higher the WR potential since that game is usually going to have the largest recreational density compared to higher games.
Also, SplitSuit discusses variance in the Bankroll Management video and there is an excellent article about variance on our site: www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/other/variance/
Some of these recreational player make some crazy plays though.. I won a big pot ( about $300 dollar which is fairly big for 1/2) with Q J on a A K 10 J 2 rainbow board.. simply by betting every street hard.. and I get called all the way to the river by K 7 off suit. Some of these recreational players literally throw money at you with some of the most absurd plays.
My guess is that the $25 rake game was from a home game of a state where there are no casinos. I've seen games where they rake $50 max in Houston. It's crazy how the players don't have a problem with it.
They have a problem with it.. they just have no choice.. but some of these games really had a lot of drunk idiots that are literally throwing away money. and of course even with a max $50 rake..in some of these games the pot never really gets bigger than say $200 dollars..
I think the person that asked you this question left out the fact that he was playing in an underground game. Undergrounds are a totally different animal, yes the house is making a killing on the rake but there's a reason for this and these games can still be very profitable. A good underground game generally revolves around 1 or 2 whales that the person running the game has somehow got to attend their game (could be discount on buy in, letting a whale play on credit, a ride to and from the game is a given, they get whatever they want because the success of the game depends on them). In these games you just have to look at the big picture, house rakes 5K/night, whales lose on average 10K, 5K divided up between 7 other players, about $714 each. Another thing to remember here is that some of the money you win off the whales will actually come out of the rake in the form of giving the whales a couple buy ins on "sheet", they know they might never collect but it keeps the game going so don't hate on the guys running the game, it's not easy to keep a good game going.
Good points. Playing with a 10% rake wouldn't be too awful, but when half the players buy in for only 40 big blinds I know the hourly rate is very small.
In Europe (Germany) rake is 2.5% capped at 20 in a 2/2 game. Current hourly rate on big sample is 20.24 euros.
rake low but cap quite high. Guess it evens out.
Considering you are playing online at the micros, can that increase your win rate giving the fact that the edge might be bigger?
It's increadible how James can do the exact same intro in every single video.
Consistency is a skill, and James is very skillful in that regard :)
In columbus ohio we have 1 casino, the rake is 10% capped at $6. $1 for the bad beat jackpot, and $1 for a tip if you win the pot. this is for $1/$2 stakes. Is this good? Also, if there is no flop, there is no rake. At 2:09 James says capped at $4 or $5 is he still talking about the $2/$5 game?! Thanks.
+Justin Giglio the capped at $4 or $5 is typical at both 1/2 and 2/5. Your game could be beatable if the field is soft enough...though the structure is VERY close to being a turnoff.
I have a question about the rake. At my local casino, it's capped at $15 for 1/2 and $20 for 2/4. I thought this was normal but reading these comments, it seems way too much. $5 seemed really low, however could this be because you are expected to tip in America, and your dealers get paid poorly? In Australia the dealers are paid decently and tipping is non existent. For casinos with $5 rake, how much do you tip the dealer? And are there any other costs? Eg do you have to pay for a seat or anything. I'll add that $15 Australian is $10 American and $20 Australian is about $13 American
$15 and $20 rake are unbeatable. Of course we need dealers to be compensated fairly - but that can be done in a way that doesn't make the game impossible to profit in.
Typically you'll see $1-$5 tips for pots won. You typically don't pay for a seat or anything like that and there are no other house costs (unless things like BBJ are being taken)
Ok. Thanks for you help. I'll have a chat to some people and see what I can do to get the rake down. I'll add that the game isn't unbeatable though. The players I'm against (on the 1/2 tables) are not very good, and it's very easy to profit. And on the 2/4 tables, the players are tougher, but after 10pm everyone is deep and the average pot size is $500. So a $20 rake isn't an issue. But at the start of the night it clearly is. Thanks again for your help and all your videos are really great :)
I would say 6-7$ a hand in California at 1-3 or 2-3 stakes is usually normal. That 6 or 7 comes in only when you make it to the flop. There are no percentages from my understanding.
What's worse, the 10% rake capped at $25 or the 4% rake uncapped I hear about in Europe? I guess with cap at $25 you want to play high stakes, and with the uncapped 4% you want to play the smallest game in the house.
Hello James!! I also need to know if my local rake is too high. 10% with a $15 cap on 1/3 (buy in $100 - $300). I'm wondering just how bad that is? ...and does a good game justify a bad rake? Usually at least a few deep stacks ($700 - $1200) consistently soft tables, and ALWAYS at least a few fish who just won't stop rebuying for 40BBs... opinions appreciated, peace
A game's softness can offset bad rake, yes. but $15 @10% is far too high and almost certainly unbeatable imo.
He probably plays on the cruise line ships...))))
I used to deal there. The rake was a killer 10% max 25$
hey splitsuit!
As I made my research on online poker, I found that pretty much any positive bb/100 (hand) is considered good. People who play online poker for living have said that they estimate their true winrate to be 4-6 bb/100 (sample size is over 100,000s of hands)
Ok one can beat 2NL and 5NL something like ~10+ bb/100, but as soon as you climb up, the regs just take their cut as well.
I haven't played live cash, but playing live ~40 hands per hour, winning 8 bb ... that makes .... 20 bb/100!? - insane!?
Can you make in depth video about winrate and variance? I just can't get my head around it.
40 hands per hour in a live NL game with six or more players is a stone cold impossibility. Even 30h/hr is damned near impossible.
If you see an average of 25, consider yourself blessed.
20 is probably on the high side (though not by much).
If you don't believe me, watch a nine or ten handed .25/.50 or .50/1 ONLINE game. Depending on how many players are multi-tabling you'll see anywhere from 45-60 hands per hour - this in a game with no shuffling, no fills, no summoning of the floor to settle a dispute, and no two minute (or longer) trips to the tank when a nit is holding the second nuts and looking at a huge bet.
FYI: If you ever find a 1/2, 1/3, or 2/5 game that's producing anywhere near 30 hands per hour, my suggestion would be that you GTFO - and quickly. Though there's no quantifiable relationship between game speed and player competency, players that are alert enough to keep a game moving at this speed are extremely likely to be at least modestly skilled.
*
Disclaimer:
The preceding applies to all games up to an including 2/5, and all but the rarest of 5/10 games. Having never played bigger than this I can't say how quickly the games move, though I'd be surprised if they moved that much faster, if for no other reason than at thesxe stakes its wholly reasonable to take a little extra time even on a preflop call.
You can absolutely make that much because players are quite bad.
Having said that though, not many people have even played 10 - 20k hands live so sample sizes aren't the best - but if you're tracking it and you're doing well consistently, 7-10bb/hour is very possible.
The only game I ever played with a 25 dollar cap was on a cruise ship. Does this guy live on a cruise ship?
Never Ender fair question :)
I'm guessing he meant it's a 10% rake on all pots with a max of $2.50....i.e. rake is capped at any pots $25+ which would basically be every hand.
Silly rake, such as capped at $25/hand, is quite common in underground games where there are no other options available
It really means capped at $25 dollar a hand. The problem is that in Australia there is only one casino so there is no choice... Although at crown ( the only casino) is 10% capped at $15 per hand. He is probably playing at the pubs where the rake is capped at $25 per hand.. or if he plays at the APL its capped at $50 a hand.. although it kind of irrelevant since the games that the pubs very rarely have pots that go over $200 dollars.
The upside to playing at pubs is there really are alot of drunks out there espically at pubs with a TAB (horse betting) since those people tend to gamble alot more
badpanda84 I heard the games are unbeatable, so there are no good players playing, which makes the game beatable.
10% with $25 CAP rake is just absolutely insane. Let's be honest, if only 5-10% of players are winners in the long run with a normal rake of $4-5, with a rake of $25, I would be shocked if more than 2% of the players are long term winners and they certainly aren't winning much.
This video seems conservative. There are definitely a good number of 2/5 games out there where the top top guys make 15bb/hr.
' *People who play online poker for living have said that they estimate their true winrate to be 4-6 bb/100 (sample size is over 100,000s of hands)* '
You cant compare online with live poker.. since you can multi table on online .. playing 4 tables at 4 bb/100 is the same as playing one table live at 20bb/100
Also it just plays faster
$20 an hr for 1/2 seems pretty high nowadays. But I see this vid was made 2014. I would say $15 an hr is top side now.
@@detroitpoker7894 Even more on 1/3 in Rozvadov where pots are big. Where did you play?
@@detroitpoker7894 aa ok i thought you are from EU
Just went with minimum buy in 1/2 no limit last night with 60$ and cashed out with 380$ within 4 hours. I’ve also taken 60$ to 600$ within 2 hours at same casino before. I’d say top of range 1/2 hourly no limit is closer to 80$ per
Hour. Stacking one person per hour could be greater than 100$ per hour at a 1/2 no limit table where people call you with Ace Shit off suit
I thought $5 Drop, $5 cap was absurd, crazy, and bad. Oh wait. It is. I'm 5x even more sorry for you.
Just wondering dose that include tipping.. I am from Australia were we the dealers are not allow to accept tips.. what is the recommended tip in the US.
I agree though the rake is absurd in Australia
badpanda84 tipping amounts in the US are heavily debated. $1-$5/pot that you win seem to be the common tip amounts...
badpanda84 My coach says tip 3 max to avoid being a degen, but I break that quite a bit. Sometimes I tip 0 as well for smaller pots or splits, it depends. But usually I tip 2-3 dollars a hand.