A Friend of mine watched B5 for the first time with her bf (he knew it already) and I was very excited, so we agreed on sending messages back and forth with commentaries while they watched. At the end of 2x20, when Delenn introduces Sheridan to the Rangers and gives his speech "a line has been drawn against the darkness" we prepared her for "comes the inquisitor" with the commentaries: "well, Seems like Sheriden and Delenn might have a little messiah complex going on" - "yeah! maybe someone should tell them about that..." So no, I don't think this could have easily been shown at a different timeslot, I think this is a direct continuation of 2x20s last scene...
This is true. I think part of the reason for the whole episode was to let them (Sheridan and Delenn) add some greater perspective to their vision of themselves and their roles in what is to come.
Vorlons, like wizards, are never late, nor are they early. They send their inquisitors precisely when they mean to. Obviously there were some big changes to the galaxy last episode. We need to know, *right now*, if our heroes are up for the challenges that come next. We didn't need to know a month ago, or at the beginning of the season. Whatever plans the Shadows had with helping the Centauri defeat the Narn, that could only be phase one, a phase which has now completed. What's phase two? Apparently something the Vorlons think Delenn and Sheridan need to be ready for.
Delenn is a priestess from a culture where priests and warriors are separated by a caste system, and where they have deeply held beliefs about not harming other members of their own species. It would be pretty unlikely for "Inquisitor" to mean the same thing to her as it would to us.
Also a very good point - I don’t think she expected the kind of interrogation she got, nothing in her background as a member of the Minbari religious caste would have prepared her for that.
I'm a little bit concerned for Jeff as a "leadership guru", insomuch as he does not question the propriety of the Vorlons sending a literal serial killer to torture someone, apparently at their whim. I'm glad Brent brought this up, so at least they got there eventually.
Also, considering how Sebastian reacts to Delenn saying that he's lashing out at anyone who thinks they're special because he failed to change the world...is he lashing out at her to regain control over the situation, was it an unacceptable answer, or did she strike a nerve? The last option is a distinct possibility, because she's completely right. The Vorlons did choose him for this task because he was a deluded would-be visionary whose holy quest only succeeded in inflicting pain and misery on people. He's here because the Vorlons thought he was a perfect bad example of someone with a messiah complex.
Exactly. And Delenn overcame her own messiah complex in the process. And part of this overcoming was understanding and expressing just how meaningless Sebastian's own previous messiah complex had been. (He gave her cues, though. If you read all his 'so you think you're special? a Chosen One?' bullying as directed not really at her but at himself... you can see he was giving her the right answer right there, if she could be courageous enough to take it and run with it.)
And don't forget that this was Sebastian's penance. Every time in the last 400 years he's seen somebody fail the test, he's seen himself reflected back.
Pay close attention to the expression on Sebastian's face when Delenn admits that she has doubted her destiny, that was not the answer he was expecting, it totally took him off-guard. The break he gave her after that was not for her, it was for him, because he needed to get himself back together after that.
Why Jack the Ripper? I believe it was an inspiration from Ellison, but it also, I think is meant to make us question the Vorlons. Seriously, if they can allow someone like him to be their servant, and allow him to continue to be sadistic, what does that tell us about them? Who are the Vorlons?
Who better to look for a "chosen" one than somebody who believed themselves to be chosen and was taught by the Vorlons in great detail just how wrong they were? I think that's right on the money: We learn a whole lot about the Vorlons by their choice here.
And their having chosen Jack shows, by the way, that they had been looking for someone. It's this whole "we had a plan going on long before this whole thing started" that first becomes visible here...
@@Asehpe True. It's significant that we learn the Inquisitor failed before. The Vorlons are powerful, sure, and they've been around Earth for a long time. But clearly, their resources are limited, and they cant learn or know everything with ease.
JMS comments on the Lurkers Guide about this episode are very much in line with this. This adds a bit of moral ambiguity to the Vorlons. Using Jack was not a whim but a very thought out act.
By this time you should be very concerned about the Vorlons. They use Jack the Ripper to test people to find the right one(s) to fight a war against a powerful, ruthless enemy. They step in to prevent a “lesser race” from discovering immortality, which they probably already posses themselves. They put a unassuming telepath through mental torture seemingly for unknown reasons and are cryptic as to why when confronted. They agree to send an ambassador to a place dedicated to developing mutual understanding between different peoples, yet rarely participate in doing anything of the kind, only beginning to take an interest as two of the other races go down a path that leads to war between them. They refuse to offer any assistance to the people hurt by that war: They are a dying people. Let them pass. About the only positive thing they have done is hide Dr. Jacobs and not choose sides in “Believers”. And yet again that was more because they couldn’t be bothered with the trivial affairs of lesser beings. To quote a viewer from another B5 podcast, these guys are shady.
G'Kar is in a very dark place and needs support from those around him and we see that obviously with Sheridan using the Rangers to help him. What's interesting to think about with the Vir scene is that G'Kar does not need words but action which is what he gets from Garibaldi in the episode. It's one thing to be sorry and offer your sympathies but it's another to actually provide aid which is what Garibaldi does.
A lot of that is positional, though. Garibaldi, in his position, can provide action. Anything Vir can do will be, at best, invisible to G'Kar and will likely have little impact. It's a very "human" thing to want to, at a minimum, express that we care, even if are unable to affect change ourselves. (For the record, I (Jeff) and am positive Vir is doing what he is able to, but, face-to-face with G'Kar he felt compelled to say something)
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime Understandable, but let's not forget that Vir isn't just some guy! He is Londo's right hand and the man who fetched Mr. Morden knowing that a war will happen by doing so. Don't get me wrong, I love Vir and think he is being honest here but also there's a guilt within him and the sorry is a way of unloading his burden but that's not G'Kar's responsibility, he's not here to pat Vir on the shoulder and tell him he's a good dude.
People love this series because what happens is earned. It's not a one-episode story arc where G'Kar instantly forgives Vir, Delenn and Sheridan instantly just are the Chosen One, or whatever else you think will happen (not saying any of those things will). Just like real life, things take time, and often things don't turn out how you hope. Some people realize things too late to make any difference. Some people go down dark paths and don't become better for it. Some really surprise you at how quickly they can change. G'Kar once said said not everyone on B5 is exactly what they seem. Don't be so sure you can predict where things will go, and don't be in so much of a rush to get there. The pay-off is worth it, moreso because everything that happens happens exactly when it means to. This episode is probably well-loved in the fandom. I don't really know to be honest. I like it, and I know how significant it is thematically. There are things JMS wants to say, things that Gene Roddenberry didn't want to, or didn't have inside him. That's sometimes why we get cranky when you talk about "Star Trek messages". This is a series with B5 messages.
I know y’all have long since moved past this episode, but I wanted to throw a bit of trivia at you: Wayne Alexander (who plays Sebastian) is not in the least bit British; he was born and raised in California. And yet, his accent is so good, most Brits can’t tell he’s not native to their shores.
I really enjoyed this episode on first watch. The scene near the end where Delenn talks about how if she falls then another will take her place gives me chills.
And the nuance of Wayne Alexander... The bit where she gets quiet and admits she's considered the notion that she's not up to the task... Sebastian is truly shaken by her answer- that one of the Army of Light's leaders would admit that is not at all what he expected, certainly not the answer he wanted- and his expression says so much in just a few seconds before he speaks again.
It’s interesting when Brent talked about not needing a redemption story for Jack the Ripper, I immediately thought about how after the testing, Jack said maybe now the Vorlons will let him die. He’s in his own hell
Yeah, it doesn't sound much like redemption. More like "You made a grave mistake, but it makes you a useful tool for us, so off you go". It's not like the Inquisitor stands to gain any kind of relief other than death.
Maybe not a hell, but he is tired. I kind of pity him. In order to make him the Inquisitor they needed, the Vorlons confronted him with the fact that his previous beliefs -- that he was the Chosen One, the one who would right wrongs and set the world in balance -- were all bullshit... I can imagine the deadening sense of emptiness that results from that.
@@Asehpe This comes back to something I feel Brent really missed with "And Now For A Word". There are times when an episode is really giving you a perspective from someone else. That episode subtly keyed you in to how things on Earth were going, it was so much more than a recap. Here we are given some really creepy details about the Vorlons, their sheer brutality. The obvious one is Delenn, the less obvious one is Jack who is being tortured in a very different way and has been for centuries.
While I can understand questions of the placement of this story, I think in universe it fits -- Kosh waited until now because he had been watching Delenn, but now he senses things might become much more intense and he needs to make sure she -- and Sheridan -- were truly the right people. Remember what he said he was going to do for Sheridan? Make sure he got to know himself. It's about him as much as Delenn.
I think Kosh counted on Sheridan trying to save Delenn, but I don't see this being a test of John. Note that he is never asked "Who are you?". As a matter of fact Sebastian calls John a soldier. So he knows who he is.
@@moreeyecandy remember, Kosh said from the beginning Sheridan is going to be trained to learn who he is and it would be necessary to know himself before he fought legends. He already has been given the question. He doesn't need it again for him to continue on with the education. And Sebastian made it clear, imo, when Sheridan showed, that the final player was there, so that Sheridan was always a part of the whole, which is why his speech at the end is for both of them. Sheridan, of course, in the end, does what Kosh said he is being trained to do -- he fights a legend, Jack the Ripper. And he takes Jack down after Jack has no power over him.
@@hornorsilk2901 Again, John was never asked by Sebastian "Who are you". Instead Sebastian tells John who he (meaning Sheridan) is. He does ask him "What is SHE to you?". He asks tons of other questions but John doesn't even TRY to answer any of them. As a matter of fact it is Delenn who ends the inquisition by reminding Sebastian it is her he is suppose to be focusing on. And she finally answers him in the way that releases both her and John. This is not because she is more important than John, simply that it is her Kosh has significant doubt about. And she was being tested because she was doubting herself. John wasn't doubting himself but then he didn't have all the information at this point in time.
@@moreeyecandy Sebastian’s reaction when Sheridan arrived tells us that he expected him and that he was a part of the process - it was a test and/or lesson for both.
I love how the general appreciation for this episode increased as you discussed it :) And you're right, it IS generally a fan favourite, and you WILL likely come to appreciate it more in the overall context of the show. Lots of other great comments here too, about its placement in the season - I can't find it now, but there was a good take below on how it perfectly follows up "TLTS". Thoughts on "The Chosen One" as used here vs. a standard SciFi/fantasy trope: I saw Sebatian's use of it as very sarcastic. It's possible Delenn wouldn't even full understand it as it's something more common to human storytelling, and she does have the damndest gaps in her vocabulary. Also, Zathras referring to "the One" can be attributed in part to his broken English. Yes, there is a meaning to it (no spoilers, not saying if Zathras returns or not, but more might just be revealed eventually) but it's not some mystical "will bring balance to the force/light to Mordor/blah blah blah" cliche. JMS may tweak with such cliches now and then, but he's never one to rely on them. And finally, as far as "why does Kosh need to be sure about Delenn NOW?" keep in mind that there are a lot more Vorlons besides Kosh, who have not be directly observing Delenn. So maybe it's not just him who is unsure (despite Lennier's phrasing).
Every TV producer everywhere: "You can't just put two characters in a room and have them do nothing but talk to each other for the bulk of the episode. It's just not compelling entertainment." JMS: "Hold my beer."
I think the sarcasm at the name of the Narn homeworld isn't really necessary. People who live on glass planets should not be the first to throw stones. Look at us. Earth. Named for dirt. And what did we decide to call the one moon that orbits our world? The moon.
There are also jokes about how many deserts are just local word for desert. Sahara, Gobi and maybe one or two others! just found an article "11 totally redundant place names" which includes Lake Tahoe and the Mississippi River
"Delenn should have acted differently -- she just kept saying Sebastian was mean, when she knew she was being tested..." I think of this episode as being JMS' way to introduce two things: first, the question "Who are you?", attributed implicitly to the Vorlons, in opposition to the question the Shadows kept asking, "What do you want?". And second, the idea that there was a Vorlon Plan: they knew things would start at some point, so they had been preparing. These preparations involved people like Delenn, but also even 19th-century Earthligns like Sebastian. JMS apparently struggled with the old debate in history about whether "big" historical change is the result of the action of special individuals, or of historical forces. Sebastian clearly thinks that "big individuals" don't really exist: he keeps saying "so, Delenn, do you think you're special? That you have a destiny? A purpose? The prophecy was about you! You're Delenn, the Chosen One!" -- and he gave up, and considered her worthy, when she finally offered to die for Sheridan's life, saying "if I die, someone else will take my place!" This suggests support for the "historical forces, not individuals, determine 'big' historical changes." Delenn is basically saying: "no, it doesn't have to be me. If I die, someone else will take my place -- because the time is ripe, there are others who can do what I can do, I simply happen to be the one who was here and who jumped into action, but others could do it and will do it if I die!" And yet, Sebastian concludes his Inquisition with the words, "so you are the right people, at the right place, at the right time"-- thus suggesting that there is something special about Delenn (and Sheridan!), something that others could not provide. What is it then? Is the Great People theory of history supported by Sebastian's final verdict? Or is the "invisible hand", "historical forces" theory supported by the fact he conceded Delenn had what it takes to fulfil her role when she said she wasn't special, when she said saving life, even sacrificing one's own for it, was all -- when she said others would take her place if need be?... As the problem of the soul in Soul Hunter (who was right -- the Soul Hunters who wanted to save souls from dissolving into nothingness after death, or the Minbari who wanted to set them free so they could reincarnate?), I don't think JMS gives an answer. He both says that Delenn (and Sheridan!) are the right people -- "Great People" theory -- and that others would take their place -- "historical forces." Make of that what you will.
I think is is also saying it takes both. That a big person can't do anything without historical momentum supporting them but also that historical momentum also can't di it without a focal point or points to condense around. That a big person (it doesn't needed to be a specific individual and can even be more then one person. As a group or individually and can even be more then one person sequentially) is needed to take advantage of or start the historical momentum but that historical momentum is needed for the big person to have a chance to succeed.
I think the thing about Delenn pushing back and Lenier interfering is that this isn’t just a drill Sargent, this is someone who will actually kill her. He isn’t just being hard on her. That’s how I read it when I watch it anyway p. This has always been one of my fav B5 episodes. I think because the line of questioning around “who are you?” really resonated with me when I watched it for the first time as a teenager haha. Always enjoy your reactions btw! Can’t wait for next week’s!
love your guys reaction as always. One great thing your guys reaction brings as and old time fan of Babylon 5 is bringing new insight myself into old episodes what they did and where they were placed in the series and why. Your doing a great job would say some more about your reaction but I think their would be to many spoilers that you try to avoid. The one thing I will say you did a great job breaking down the episode though I think you can look back at this episode again even after the season finally and see possibly why this was the episode right before it. I will leave it at that keep up the great job guys.
Speaking of Vir changing... Yes, Vir has gone through some things, hasn't he? When you compare the funny, awkward guy who didn't know how to be an attaché to the Centauri Ambassador from Season 1 with this Season 2 Vir, we see a change, don't we? And I don't think it's a spoiler to say that everybody everywhere in this show is also changing as we watch them. G'Kar famously said to Catherine Sakai that 'nobody here (on B5) is exactly as he appears to be'. I would also add: nobody here will also end exactly as he (or she) was at the beginning. That's one consequence of events, especially big historical events as we're witnessing: when they touch you, they change you, and you cannot just remain the same. You make your choices under stressful conditions while extremely important things are happening all around you; and these decisions will put you in paths that will end with you no longer being who you used to be. We're always the result of all our choices (+ the unavoidable outside events and influences), and never is that so clear as in moments of great historical change, such as B5 is portraying. Vir is not the same, but neither is Londo, nor is G'Kar... nor is anyone else, though it may take a little longer for us to see that. Life is like that. It changes you. 🙂
Brent, thank you for sharing your experience of being a stay at home dad. I had the same conversation with my wife at the time and left my job of 10 years to be a stay at home dad. It did not go as well and my struggles in that role may have been one of the contributing factors in that marriage’s failure. But in knowing myself now and my limits allows me to support and care for my elderly mother while working full time. Being a stay at home dad is a hard job. You have my respect for stepping up to the joys and challenges.
I didn't like this episode at first, because I didn't get it and I did think of Jacks reveal as being corny as well. But the more I watch this episode, the more I like it. Now I think someone like Jack is the perfect candidate for this position. He saw a darkness and he felt he had to draw a line, because he saw no one else doing it. So he stepped up and took it upon himself to fight the darkness. But he did it for the wrong reason and with the wrong methods and goal. He saw himself as a holy Warrior, but he was a dark one. So he would know what to look for and what to tease out of someone who is mentally in a similar situation to get to the core of their motivation and be sure that they don't get off the right path...
Here's also something else..... G'Kar was also being tested in this one -- and he too had to come to know himself and trust in who he was becoming. So the two plot connect.
Look, we had the conclusion of the Narn Centauri war last week. That’s probably kind of the unofficial season finale. I expect next week will just be some rounding up and tidying things up.
@@cb361 But was it the conclusion ? Last episode, The Centaury bombed the Narn Homeworld from orbit. Is that the conclusion ? Narns getting pummeled in to submission is an end to the war ?
I liked the Jack the Ripper reveal. To me, the reason why the Vorlons choose Jack was because he was so sure he was the chosen one. He was absolutely certain that what he was doing was right! The Vorlons wanted someone who had that view that they were chosen and then the Vorlons could show them that they are wrong. But. That tenacity, possibly that quality (?), of believing that one is right could then be harnessed to categorically confirm to the Vorlons that they have found the right person. I remember hearing from my friend that one of his friends wanted to start a franchise company. He wanted to hire someone with experience. He didn't hire someone who had succeeded, but hired someone who had failed 5 times. Because this person absolutely, after failing 5 times, knew why he failed and how to help others to not make the same mistakes. Someone who succeeds on the first time isn't normally aware of all the reason why they succeeded. Just my thoughts. CLUB 65!
You don’t always get closure at the end of an episode with B5. Sometimes, it can even take seasons, like if you look at Vir’s apology. You have to look back to what happened the last time a Centauri tried to apologize to G’Kar to understand his reaction. As for Delenn not understanding, the Membari do not harm other Membari, so she probably would not expect an ally like the Vorlons would send someone who seems like he works for the Shadows to challenge her. Them using Jack also causes the viewer to start to question the Vorlons.
Delenn roars. The power of her as a person is laid bare. On this podcast it has been discussed how Delenn began very still, and is now more expressive, and demonstrative. The onion peal that you have had so far tells you that she has the force of personality, and utter belief in prophecy, that she puts it upon herself to set that prophecy in motion. But for the Vorlons, the power of the personality is not enough. The person must also have the ability to let go of ego. Yes, JMS having his "million years in either direction" understanding of the story is why the question is posed to begin with. But that's the only way to write an episode on how the Vorlons perceive the people who are going to be fighting in this war. Why Jack the Ripper? And why reveal that at all? Second question first: the question asked throughout this part of the story is "Who are you?", so, of course, at least some of the audience would want to know that of the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor had to be an important enough figure to be the title character for the episode, someone that could easily be considered to have had a messiah complex without a lot of explanation to meet the needs of the story, and for all the importance of the character, the audience would need to want him to go way and never come back. A lot of bad people throughout history would work character-wise, but at that time there were a number of shows on trying to figure out who Jack the Ripper was. Who better to grip the audience with, while at the same time reversing the pop culture asking of "who was he?" "Who are you?" Also, it further impresses the idea first properly expressed in Deathwalker, that the Vorlons are quite morally grey. ("You are not ready for immortality." being Kosh's logic there.) G'Kar and Vir: three words, long form storytelling. These guys are in the middle of their stories. Any more answers are spoilers.
The "Jack" reveal never felt off to me, possibly because I called it in my first time viewing on TV from his opening conversation with Sheridan. - Man from late 1800s London. - Focus on the immorality of humanity (one thing to note next time you watch this is where his eyes go as the camera shows his point of view). - Intense creepy aura. - Mysteriously vanished one day from his old life in London.
I've always liked it because it feels actually relevant to the plot. So often, historical references in SciFi are made just for the sake of it, but in this case, the Inquisitor's identity as a serial killer and all the different interpretations trying to put some kind of higher meaning on the "Jack the Ripper" case really add to the whole interrogation. It tells you so much about how the Vorlons approach this situation, what they deem worthy in the people they choose, and how they treat their allies/servants.
Is it a favorite of OG fans? I'd say overall, yes. There are lots of detractors, certainly, but it seems most of us have grown to appreciate it far more over time. It took me a few viewings to really get it and appreciate the story being told. Yes, it gives us more insight into the **REDACTED** but it also tells its own complete story about Sebastian; and it does that without actually being "about" Sebastian. It's very well constructed to work on several levels, Wayne Alexander is spectacular, and it moves the overall story forward in a subtle and unexpected way.
It does stand out to me, but not as better than average; just as weirder than average. I can't call it bad either, but it's just so strange and out-of-left-field that I can't put it anywhere in the context of the rest of the show.
I have never believed in the idea that breaking someone down makes them stronger. "He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom." -JRR Tolkien.
I never interpreted Sabastian's use of the term "chosen one" as literally endorsing that Delenn was that, but simply that important people with delusions of grandeur often believe they are "the chosen one" or "favored of God". And once they come to believe that their purpose and task no matter how noble has become corrupted. So the inquisitor was trying to weed out anyone who believed they were uniquely special.
Vir and G'Kar... I liked Jeff's approach to it: G'Kar was saying, how can the dead forgive you if they're dead, and there are so many of them? Who are you apologizing to? The dead can't hear you!... But I'd add to it: Vir is in the position of all those who felt the burden of "collective guilt". Whether it be European slavers when confronted with descendants of former slavers, or today's Russians when confronted with the Ukrainians whose existence they deny to the extent of committing atrocities against them -- is there a place for a feeling of guilt even if you are not directly responsible for anything at all? Can anyone wash their hands of the crimes of their people and say, "I had nothing to do with it -- I have nothing to apologize for?" So I complement Jeff's perspective with this view: Why does Vir feel the need to apologize? Is it right that he feels the need to apologize? Also, should G'Kar accept his apologies? If not now -- "too soon" -- then later at some point? Leaving aside the obvious modern parallels of the Russo-Ukrainian war, consider Jews and the Holocaust: Germans have apologized for it, already during the Nazi regime, and certainly after it. And there were Germans, many Germans, who were not directly responsible for anything. Their 'crime' was to do nothing, to keep their eyes and ears shut, to do the possible to 'not know' that there was something going on... if later on they apologize, is their apology acceptable? Or do you have to be an anti-Nazi partisan or guerilla fighter, à la Sophie Scholl, to earn your forgiveness first? The Germans have a large literature of thoughts, books, articles on this exact topic -- what is the responsibility of "ordinary Germans", what is their moral status, when the greatest moral crime in history was committed right next to them, by people who claimed to be speaking on their behalf, to be perpetrating said crime on their behalf? Whatever Vir feels, it is a complicated thing. I respect that, and I recognize the difficulty in analyzing and deciding it. I hope his moral compass will take him in the right direction.
There was a line that Sebastian had that I thought was interesting. He said something like "The Vorlons showed me a world of majesty and terror i could never dream of". This goes with what Jeff was saying about the Vorlons bieng morally grey.
I agree with Brent here - this wasn't for Kosh's benefit. Consider: Delenn entered the Chrysalis thinking she was fulfilling prophecy, and bridging humans and Minbari. But since then, she's been rejected by humans (GROPOS, And Now For A Word), she's been rejected by Minbari (A Distant Star, All Alone in the Night, There All The Honour Lies), even her own body is a mystery to her(Soul Mates). She's gone from being the confident Satai that can face down Neroon to ... what, exactly? The Inquisitor, in part, was to reignite her self confidence, to help her discover Who Are You? again. Plus there's the flipside of it also being Sebastian's punishment. If she fails, he sees another reflection of himself, if she passes he recognises his own failings. Something that dud occur to me; the Ripper didn't sem to have tortured anyone. His victims were largely.killed quickly, and any mutilation was post-mortem (and also no signs of sexual assault). A psychopath undoubtedly,but not a sadist. Possibly he even thought he was "saving" his victims from a life where pretty much any other man that they encountered *would* have treated them as objects more than people. Maybe I've just read "From Hell" too many times....
I do think some people assume there is also a connection between JMS and his relationship with his father being played out with Sebastian. This can explain in part Delenn's pointing out Sebastian's faults, perhaps having her question things herself, and maybe that is also a part of the journey. You can't really know who you are if you are unwilling to question what others are saying and doing, even if they say they are doing it for your own good. To truly be true to herself, she will have to question Sebastian, for he doesn't seem to be on the side of life.
You are beginning to see more of the depth of this show your discussion shows that. I kept thinking I was back in my college freshman English literature class when we discussed the meanings of a rose in a vase on a mantle, except I really enjoy your discussion. You both would be far better literature teachers than I ever had.
A friend pointed me to this channel on Saturday, and I totally enjoyed dipping into your analyses of far too many episodes in the limited time. A bunch of us gathered for each episode on their first screenings in the UK and whilst I agree with many of your points, the question I feel you missed - it's also really subtly hidden - is why would the Vorlons use Jack as an inquisitor. Why would a brutal serial killer be acceptable. The fact he, JMS, drives that point home at the very end of the episode had us talking. Anyway, I'm hooked. You guys are great!
Sebastian would never let her get the right answer until Sheridan was there. Sheridan was also being challenged. Until he was there, all Sebastian would do is torture Delenn.
I disagree. He would have to eventually introduce Sheridan, true, but I don't think he was just torturing Delenn. He was, I think quite rightfully, showing the problems implicit with a messianic vision of oneself -- I"m the Chosen One, I am the only one who can do these things, I have a mission!
I like to think that ANYONE coming into the room would have been captured and questioned by Jack. And Delenn would have given the same sacrifice answer for ANYONE. It just happened to be Sheridan
This was never my favorite episode, but it is a very interesting episode. It forces you to ask some questions you might not have previously asked. To be clear, this is very much a "journey matters more than the destination" episode. It was never going to be revelatory that Delenn and Sheridan were the right people in the right place at the right time. The audience already knows that particular answer the moment the question is brought up. If they weren't the chosen ones, we wouldn't be following them so closely. So, why have the storyline at all? Because the process has value. The process is what raises the questions. Here is why I think Jeff is wrong about the Jack reveal. Yes, it's supposed to be a somewhat shocking twist, but it's more than that. It is a succinct declaration about the true nature of the inquisitor that pretty much everyone will immediately understand. Is he just some true believer doing something distasteful to serve a greater purpose? No. He's a psychopath who got off on butchering women that he felt were "dirty" or impure. From what we see on his walk with Sheridan, he still holds the same views he did back in Victorian England. So, the facts that we are left with is that the Vorlons kidnapped a serial killer, broke him to their will (given the delivery, the Vorlons teaching Sebastian the error of his ways probably didn't involve extensive therapy), and then used him to "test" God only knows how any potential champions. You also have to wonder how many people Sebastian tortured in the service of the Vorlons, and how many of those people did he end up killing? Sebastian had been working for the Vorlons for over 400 years. You have to figure some of those people were true believers. They wouldn't have given up any more than Delenn did. They would have believed until the very end that there was a way to successfully complete the challenge, and that they would find it. Furthermore, it's not like this would have been a surprise to the Vorlons. I mean, the Vorlons knew what his methods were, and they knew the results. The fact that they kept using him meant they were ok with both. Hell, the way Sebastian delivers the line, clearly it was the Vorlons who said that Sebastian was perfectly suited to the task. What does it say about the Vorlons, that they would do such a thing? Are they not what they seem, or is what needs to be done just that vital that they can't afford to take ANY chances? Those were the questions the episode made me ask, at least. So, while not my favorite episode, an interesting one at the very least. '
Jeff’s anecdote about the leader ship training thing does not fly for me. Yes there may have been tough questions asked, there may have been someone driving for what someone is really there for, but I highly doubt there was electric torture involved. The situations are not comparable.
Are you saying managers/people running training seminars may not be sociopaths? Let alone psychopaths who actually killed people? I'm shocked I tell you... ;-)
I would definitely compare this episode more to Waltz than Duet, this is a good episode and it's major objectives are the show you the Vorlon question as well as to hint just how much they have dicked around with the past of the "younger" races. Other than that, it sets up the next phase of Gkar's story. But I don't know many who hold this episode in high regard. It sets up the future of the story, but does little else.
Honestly.. the message I took from this was, while all the points thar they did bring up matter was, "IWe are the people hear, in the position to do something, not special, not chosen, but just the people in the best position to do what is needed. If we fall, someone else will rise to replace us." The point being, they are the right people because they don't think they are "chosen".
I generally agree with the trap of seeing Delenn as human with human points of view, when she is, in her head anyway much more Minbari. Also, one of the core considerations of any true Minbari is more about their motivation, their purity of purpose and not the resulting action(s). She had to reach the point that she, the Chosen One would not only be willing to lead and die for the cause...she must be willing to lay down her life for someone, even if nobody ever knew about her act or why she, the Chosen One died or dissapeared. I confess that I too didn't enjoy this episode the first time or maybe even the second. It now means a lot more seeing Delenn sheading her Mimbari mental armor and training and stripped down to just one being caring for and even sacrificing for another...be it minbari, human, a billion or just one single solitary life.
About your criticism on Delenn: She isn't used to that. It is a completely new situation. She was a Satai, a member of the Grey Council. And now somebody comes along and treats her like that? But the main lesson about this that Delenn and Sheridan can't stand the upcoming events alone, only together. This is what this was all about. They have to trust each other and fight the thing together to succeed. That was also Sebastian's final verdict when he said that THEY passed.
I am not condoning or possibly suggesting that Babylon 5 could be remade in a satisfactory manner to my liking.... but if it were to come to fruition I need the background music for Sebastian in this episode to be by Atrium Carceri: Ruins of Desolation. If the Perfection of this statement cannot be realeyesed, then you are the one missing out....
I feel like Jeff's comments regarding JMS telling us a story in a vacuum with this episode is, if not entirely on point, very similar to how I felt about it on the first viewing. Starting from the third viewing or so, this actually became one of my favorites. I will say that Jack the Ripper wasn't entirely necessary as a reveal, but someone LIKE him was, and he is a particularly famous example.
Definitely One of My all time favorite episodes of B5. And that reveal at the end... Epic. The episode believers could be deleted and the show as a whole would be better off... Where as this episode stands as a testament of the layered and nuanced story telling that B5 is known for. It is a shining example of the Best of B5. "We have sent for an inquisitor"... Not "I have sent for an inquisitor" This is an important distinction that you both seem to have missed. Jeff was closer in his prediction because he identified Sheridan as the one the inquisitor was coming for... it just so happens that the inquisitor started with Delenn. And yeah it's really the both of them together... that's important. Sure it's a "cheap" episode that didn't require as much post processing... but the character development and insights into the perspective of the Vorlans and the depths to which they can go... Truely an episode to come back to again and again.
I think the point if using Jack the ripper was largely as a cautionary tale, one about how a person can do great harm thinking themselves "Chosen" while Delenn says during the episode. "If I die, another will take my place" It tears apart the chosen one trope and points in some ways to it's not that someone was a chosen one, but that they were the right person in the right place at the right time and are remembered by history instead of forgotten as a failure. Sebastian's lines at the end as he's leaving. About how wrong he was and how everything he tried to do failed and was forgotten. The actor really nailed the facial expressions as he was giving those lines, his face warring with with he wanted to achieve and the pain of failing because he was so wrong.
@@MrDdaland I'm gonna have to find time to look for the Lurker's guide at some point. Been a fan of the show since it aired but never interacted with the community or knew about the Lurker's guide till recently.
Jeff, if you find yourself complaining about what a victim says to their torturer, you might want to pause and reflect. A part of this episode was definitely trying to teach something, but who was doing the teaching and did anybody learn anything?
@Jeff I suppose you could make the argument that the show can just tell us who 'the one' is. I think that can vary from story to story. People just being "the chosen" or whatever, can sometimes come off as lazy if there's no reasons given besides, they just randomly are. In a movie, you can sometimes get away with it, but in a TV show with a huge amount of time, why would you just toss such a great opportunity for character building? They will be called to run a war against an ancient race. Something that neither of them has ever done. Can they even do it? I think it's fair to apply some pressure and see if the structures of power can hold up, because if they can't here and and now, then we have a big problem. This is one of my favorites just because of its simplicity, great acting, and depth of message that you guys sorta uncovered more and more as you spoke about it. I think as the show continues you will find this episode is....the right episode, in the right place, at the right time.
I just love these guys! We lost internet power last Friday, so we are watching what we call the Babylon 5 after show. tonight ans everybody cant wait to see it. We watch each episode on the Roku Channel, and turned in to Your RUclips podcast. We enjoy it so much! you guys are thought provoking, and entertaining. I actually not into podcast but you two guys are a hoot! After my Friday night Babylon 5 viewing group finishes the series Jeff gave me a recommendation to tune in to a podcast for Battlestar Galactica I wish you guys would do it. Maybe in the future??
My first class as a seminary student, we watched this episode; it was the first episode of B5 I saw. Don't remember what he wanted us to get out of it. We also watched "Darmok" in that class, and talked about how English has been shaped by the Bible and other narratives.
Jack the Ripper was the perfect person to become Inquisitor because he came to understand his own hubris and evilness of his acts. Also he did not change all that much, given how he looked at B5 public corridors. So given Vorlons think using someone like him is fine, what does that say about them? And I really enjoyed the performance. I am not saying you are right or wrong about Centauri expanding further, but that guy had a good point when he was arguing with G´Kar. Narns provoked and attacked and SNEAK ATTACKED civilian populations. Remember how Sinclair accused G´Kar being too cowardly for a straight up fight? They knew Centauri would steamroll them and still did it. G´Kar has a lot of good qualities but just as many bad ones and has a lot of growing up to do. If you are no longer considering Londo to be a good guy I would argue by same values neither is G´Kar. Edit: JMS does in fact have THE alien of the show. And it is not Delenn actually. Nor G´Kar. The storyteller and main character, if you want to use that term in ensemble cast show is someone else. I think it will become clear as you continue watching who it is.
Regarding the "chosen one might not be chosen"-problem being only in JMS's head: Within the confines of this show, you are absolutely right. But I do believe it's worth acknowledging that virtually any audience will be familiar with the chosen-one trope and will have likely come to question it at some point. From that angle, I believe JMS is addressing an absolutely universal problem in storytelling here.
Jeff: "Vir is *the man* !" Are you aware that the Latin word "vir" means "man"? Yes, I agree, Vir has grown tremendously over the two seasons. About your predictions, I can only say - wait and see ... Yes, Jeff. The Niemueller quote is quite appropriate here. Oh, yes ... the Shadow question and the Vorlon question. Two very important questions. The Inquisitor (played by Wayne Alexander) and Delenn/Sheridan. is an excellent piece of theatre. The Vir G'Kar elevator scene starts off uncomfortable and a little comical, then grows to a dramatic high. Others may have told, Stephen Furst has said at conventions that the acting of Andreas was so powerful that he was brought into that state. I love the scene between G'Kar and Garibaldi. Yes, this is one of my favourites in season 2, and the opinions of it are divided. About the comment about Sebastian being Jack, what does that say about the Vorlons? Predictions. Right or wrong? cannot say, or there be spoilers. Be seeing you!
Yes, and I don't get why. I think it is a great episode on personhood, individuality, and the role of leaders ('important people'). I never understood the disdain some seem to have for it.
First off, with regards to this episode; the idea of testing (or vetting) your leadership (and if you ask me, your civil servants as well), to make sure that you have the right people, in the right place, at the right time, does really appeal to me (and trust me, this idea will come up later in the show as well), especially if we look at the whole of human history. Personally, i think humanity would benefit greatly, if we implemented something akin to this, as a way to weed out the wheat from the chaff, as it were. As with Brent's story, about him having doubts early on dealing with the fact that he decided to become a stay-at-home dad, is totally understandable (from a certain point of view) but if you ask me, i cannot think of a greater responsibility, than raising children, or a family. The fact that he eventually understood that, makes him an awesome person, and in my book, a great parent.
Remember this is not star trek things are not just warped up at the end of an episode sometimes it takes seasons to get and end/answer to something even sometimes small things. It also likes to show that history is not just about the big moments that the small ones can be just as or more important then the big ones. And it also shows that even when big historical things are happening everyday life still happens. Some of these low point episodes that you feel don't fit are just JMSreminding everyone that everyday real life is still happening even as big historical things take most people's attention.
I do love this episode. I would watch it 10 times before watching Soul Hunter once. The thing I think you guys will eventually appreciate is the world building and character development that goes into episodes like this. The episode adds a little more to the B5 universe even though it doesn’t do much to push the shadow story forward. One of the great things about the series is that JMS took the time to build the B5 universe and provide moments like G’Kar and Vir in the elevator and learning that the Vorlons have been to Earth.
This episode also gives another very important piece of information that lot of people seem to miss. It gives a glimpse to how the Vorlons might not be quite so altruistic and purely good guys as they have been portrated as so far.
I am with Jeff on the re-watchability of this episode. I love the concept, I love what it brings to the universe, but yeah it doesn't need to be re-watched.
I love that Brent framed these two questions as coming from the Shadows ("What do you want?") and from the Vorlons ("Who are you?"). As I was rewatching the show along with the two of you, I noticed that, way back when Mr. Morden was walking around asking all the ambassadors what they wanted, Kosh too asked... I think it was Sheridan?... a question of his own. Kosh's question was in fact, "Who are you?"
Excellent episode and excellent discussion. Got into some deep stuff, which I think this episode deserves to evoke. Cards on the table, I like this episode. I also like the cheese around who Sebastian really is. The take that the Vorlon's can find a means to redeem Jack the Ripper was not my take on first watching it. In the earlier podcast on All Alone in the Night, I had said that Jeff's review had shocked me. I didn't give a reason at the time. This episode is the reason I was shocked, as that sum up of AAITN could easily be used in this episode with a few name changes. I will say that discussion prompted me to re-evaluate that episode, raising it in my estimation, as the thematic links between the two are now more apparent once pointed out. The interesting thing is Jeff rated AAITN far above this episode, seeing things in it I never connected the dots before. Whereas I rated this episode way above that one. It shows its all horses for courses on what people get out of the various episodes, but that the programme did a stellar job of getting across the Who are You message and both Delenn and Sheridan learning/discovering who they are. I am wanting to get into the whole who are you/what do you want thing but I am going to hold off for now as, to channel Kosh, it's not yet time
I hate to disagree on where this episode could have happened, but it was only last episode that Sheridan was given a role in the fight against the Shadows. Up until now he was being taught by Kosh but there was no in-continuity expectation that he would be leading this. We as the audience who recognise that he's the main character understand this is going to end up on him but as far as everyone else is concerned in-universe this is all on Delenn and Sinclair. Sheridan has been fighting his own secret conflict against the Clark administration but only gained a position as leader in the larger fight last episode. So, no, this had to come here and now because only after last episode did the Vorlons have all their pieces in place ready to move.
I won't say much on the A plot of this episode because of spoilers, but when watching the next episode just keep this A plot in mind. Don't expect any stunning revelations, but if you're paying attention next episode with this in mind then something should start to germinate in your subconscious that next season will gradually nurture.
You hope that G'Kar will forgive at least Vir? G'Kar doesn't know that Londo is the guy who is behind the alliance of the Centauri and the Shadow. For G'Kar, Londo is just a buffoon, but not a top level Centauri politician. What do you think, G'Kar would do with Londo if he knew that he is responsible for the current situation? I guess, something like sucking the marrow out of the bones and grinding the skull to powder would be a very appropriate description. And he would assure that the body would remain recognizable, so that everybody knew who that was.
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime Oh no doubt, but even if you still like Long Twilight Struggle better, which is possible, you’ll see why the next one is the Season ended.
This episode while not being the action packed ramp up that you guys thought it should have been given that its the lead up to the season ender, is pregnant with depth tgat really does a lot of heavy lifting, but like a good leader, goes unnoticed and not truly appreciated for what it really did in its time
On the note of the season 3 intro, I would highly recommend watching it at lest once, though a first/last episode view would be even better. I know Brett skips them, but I would suggest viewing. There are images for the future, yes, but they are more teasery than spoilery.
If it was Star Trek, it would have been an excuse for the cast to all dress up in period costumes, meet Charles Dickens, attend a performance of the Mikado and show off their English accents.
I think Jeff is overanalysing a bit - I rather wonder whether he would be as composed under torture like Delenn was. And as became clear through the ordeal, the answer he was looking for wasn’t any of the things Jeff mentioned (even sacrificing everything to go through the transformation in Crysalis). Brett’s point about the latter, that it may have been to teach Delenn and Sheridan about themselves is part of it. But I think there was a test for Delenn and Sheridan in it too - they wanted to know that it wasn’t vanity driving them in a quest for glory or recognition, but that they would be willing to do everything they could even if it meant ending up dying forgotten and anonymous. That, like Delenn said, if she dies someone else will take her place. Also, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the fact that the Vorlon’s had chosen Jack the Ripper to conduct the inquisition. What does it say about them? G’Kar’s story arc from pantomime villain to leader of Narns in exile has been amazing. Andreas Katsulas’ ability to convey emotion though tons of prosthetics is truly amazing. Edit: also, I disagree with the idea that you could put this episode much earlier on the season if you exclude the G’kar story line. It could not come before the last episode, with Sheridan being introduced to the Rangers and making his almost messianic speech about “the line must be drawn here”. From the Vorlon perspective, this is the point where Sheridan and Delenn needed this lesson/test.
It's overanalyzing on one hand, and sort of "under-analyzing" on the other. He mentions he's disappointed in Delenn's behaviour during the interrogation. That's completely valid. But instead of going deeper into her character and trying to figure out why she might be behaving this way, Jeff veers into an excursion about his own experience. There's nothing wrong with bringing your own experience into the discussion, but you first have to question how applicable it is. As many others have pointed out: The fact that Delenn is a completely different person with a different cultural background, isn't really acknowledged in this perspective. Nor is the fact that an interrogation and leadership exercise are vastly different circumstances.
@@MrMartechi True, though Delenn is also a leader of the Minbari religious caste, where there is a hierarchy that determines what you’re told and what you expect of others. Who you are is defined by your position in the hierarchy, so her reaction to the interrogation makes sense from that perspective. I don’t think anything in her education and upbringing would have prepared her for the type of interrogation she was subjected to.
@@kardy12 Add to that the relationship she has with the Vorlons. Jeff brings up her decision to enter the Chrysalis as one of the things she could have brought up to show her strength. But crucially, she only underwent the crysalis after consulting Kosh, after getting his blessing, so-to-say. When making this powerful decision, she relied on the Vorlon's backing. Which is one more reason why she probably isn't prepared for this interrogation, where a Vorlon representative turns on her and forces her to face that adversity on her own. That is something she's never had to do before.
@@MrMartechiAlso Delenn has spent pretty much the entire season getting knocked by humans and Minbari for a decision that has wrought some massive and irrevocable changes to herself. She needed to be reminded of who she is at core.
@@simongiles9749 From that angle, the Inquisitor is oddly encouraging. He's pretty much the first one all season who pushes her to define her own identity, rather than putting labels like "freak" on her.
I'm shocked at the ratings! But I can't disagree with the discussion. I love psychological bottle episodes, so I love this one, but that's obviously a personal preference.
I've been growing my starter for six months, and made my first loaf and two baguettes yesterday and this morning. It tastes great. To me, the episode is pretty good because it serves as the calm before the storm, but it also shows an escalation because the shadows are now starting to move openly, so the stakes are upped. It also says something about Delenn's past decisions. Everybody told her that she was filled with hubris in trying to fulfill the prophecy. I think this episode shows that she's a true believer, and willing to sacrifice for her beliefs. I think that it's also something of an extension with her mess up during the news interview. As a member of the Gray Council, she wasn't used to be questioned. Now that she's not, she's getting a whole bunch of crap all at once. I'm sure it gets better on a re-watch in context. Just my thoughts. As always, interesting to hear your perspectives.
Production necessities required that there be episodes like this, with next to no CGI (so the toasters could focus on others) and a small budget to enable the big episodes like the last one. Gotta realize B5 was working with a budget roughly half of what STTNG/DS9 cost. I personally think this is a fine episode, worth pulling out for standalone rewatch but not nearly as often as many others. Some are exceptionally high on it for the deep psychological drilling and superb performances, I appreciate those things but don’t feel a need to revisit it too frequently.
Jeff, The problem being solved is not your (our?) problem?? Perhaps it’s because the story you’re telling yourself is not the story! I really don’t get it when people get themselves wound up over mere conjecture or leaping to unwarranted conclusions. That said, keep up the good work! If I care enough to leave a comment, it’s just out of love 😂
Love all the comments! At this point, though, knowing what we know, this is where I landed. I did everything I could to come at this one with some positivity. That also shows the power of conversation.
@@Nikioko Correct but G'Kar was already angry with Londo well before this because while G'Kar reached out a hand of friend ship Londo's forces struck the Narn starting the war and right then he accused Londo of knowing that was going to happen. And you can not tell me that over the course of the war Londo's name did not come up as one of the architects of the war's start.
@@violencesolveseverything2444 Londo always got assurance from Morden that the Shadow attacks cannot be tracked back to him. So yes, Londo as a Centauri nationalist may be identified as one of the supporters (but not tha driving force) of the war, but there is no obvious evidence that he is behind the pact with the Shadows. In fact, so far the Shadows operated secretly. People might have wondered why the Centauri got the upper hand so easily, but there was no hint that they got help from some friends, as there was no surviving witness who could report.
I don't think the two of you need hindsight to see this episode correctly. I think you got it just right - triangulating somewhere among both of your disparate opinions. I don't love the episode but appreciate aspects of it on rewatches. G'Kar's elevator scene is a great moment. I like that the episode provides that complementary world view to the Shadows. There is a reason for having this episode preceding the season 2 finale - at one point of the finale it is good to know that a character has greater importance because he/she is the right person in the right place at the right time. I know Brent has watched the finale and can guess what this references. I suspect Jeff has watched as well as my understanding is that you are both two episodes ahead of the RUclips releases.
This video is a turning point for Brent and Jeff's view of season 2 as the agglomeration of good episodes has led to a review without a mention that season 2 sucks and underperforms season 1.
I love how Jeff refers to a 200-300 year old recipe as ancient. These New Worlders are so sweet, in the same way a child thinks that waiting a month is a lifetime. 😉
It isn't the recipe that he says is old, it is the sourdough starter. Someone has kept that fermented culture alive for centuries, which is the impressive part. Sure, it is likely that there are older cultures around but this shows a level of effort and dedication from a line of bakers.
It's not the recipe that's ancient. People have been making bread for thousands of years. It's the fact that the particular line of yeast has been kept going for longer than several bakers' lifetimes.
This episode was also the end of a redemption arc. Not Londo's, but Sebastian's. And it told us a lot about the Vorlons without having a Vorlon in it, but one of their agents. But, important question: Who are you?
Is it Sebastian's redemption, though? Or just punishment? For redemption, I'd expect Sebastian would have had to work to realize his mistakes and somehow make up for them in a symbolic way. But the way he describes it, the Vorlons "made him understand the gravity of his mistake" right upfront, when they picked him up. And the work he did afterward was hardly making up for serial murder. If anything, Sebastian killed more people as the inquisitor than he did ever as Jack the Ripper - innocent people at that, whose only mistake was to believe they were chosen.
@@MrMartechi it's never stated implicitly that he killed anyone during his inquisition, only that death was a possibility; and the subject could remove the manacles at any time, but doing so would be admitting to failure. Him stating that Delenn and Sheridan were the first ones to pass doesn't mean the rest were killed, only that the others weren't up to the challenge...
@@lordpuki1375 That's a valid read, but I'd question the likelihood. Sebastian has been at this for 400 years (granted, with some gaps). But if he's interrogating people who believe themselves to be chosen, I would expect in all this time, a fair number did push themselves to death rather than walking away. Assuming that all those who falsely believed themselves to be "the chosen one" to sober up and walk away seems like more of a stretch to me.
@@MrMartechi Definitely a valid point, but the issue is: was it really Sebastián who killed them, or their own hubris? And unlike his previous victims whose only crime was what he deemed to be immorality; any/all victims as inquisitor were tasked to him by the Vorlons and as such would hardly qualify as innocent in the strictest sense... As stated, they could just walk away at any time, but if they were so convinced that they were in the right that their Grand Destiny would not allow them to die until that Purpose had been fulfilled; then does that really count as murder or just negligent homicide?
B5 is just as much politics and philosophy as it is action. If you don't appreciate those aspects then you may not really enjoy the rest of the series tbh. This episode is 5/5. The placement is kinda perfect.
I love this show, but if anything their analysis shows me that this show would probably be a bigger hit with fans of politics than sci-fi. This episode is basically one of the climaxes of Delenn's character growth, and it's crazy important and beloved to fans of the series.
So many of the issues are addressed in later episodes and seasons, this is an episode massively increased in importance on re-watch. I wish I could explain "that is why it happened this way" but it would be massive spoilers... I suggest at the end of Season 5, you re-watch a few key episodes, this being one and see it in the greater context of JMS vision and you can discuss it fully without worrying about spoilers In my opinion this is one of the most important episodes of the entire series and an episode I absolutely love, on a par for me with "Pale Moonlight"
Jeff, are you wrong or right about your predictions/theories? Yes. Which theories? Yes. -- This comment was approved by Kosh, and is all I will say for now.
I really like Jeff's comparisons of the two models (be, do, have vs have, do, be). I think that on some level, you need both. Having the tools WILL help you expedite completion of tasks, HOWEVER, without the knowledge, practice, or skill, it's basically worthless. The flip side is if you have the knowledge, practice and skill, but not the means to effect results; that too is worthless. Henceforth, a mix is required. How much of each is the real question.
the problem is Jeff thinks that Sebastian is here to "do a job", and it ends with making a choice...but that choice is death. There is no "Oh shucks, you failed" if she doesn't take the bracelets off. He kills her if she doesn't answer the questions correctly. There is never any point where she can start listing all the things she's done correctly, as he said, without Sebastian shutting her down because the answers don't fit. He's not going to go "Well I'm impressed, ya got me!" Instead, he shouts "Wrong!" He complains about Linner going to Sheridan and saying that Sebastian is killing her...well, yeah! He was! So that Sheridan would go to the Grey and become a target for Sebastian. Then his work could truly be over.
I don't get that Duet would need multiple views. There isn't really anything complicated in that. Not to say that it isn't good or rewatchable (I've never ranked DS9 episodes but would be surprised if it didn't make a Top 10), just that the idea of a survivors guilt works in stand-alone. It's never referenced again, which is a frustration I have with DS9 on rewatches - so many things that could be made in to small ongoing threads, but none of the later sympathetic Cardassians make even a vague mention of it. As for this episode, I'm kind of middling with it. I love the idea of it, I love what it re-establishes (it's really not answering a question), but I don't know if I ever felt that Delenn was really at risk of dying (although I feel you are meant to), and that spoils the tension for me. I also am not sure if the Vorlons are testing Delenn because of how much her own confidence has been shaken this season by her transformation (and put her through an ordeal to help her), or if they are doubting her with how weak she has become (and were willing to let her die so the right person could come forward). It's more interesting than good to me. The choice of Jack The Ripper though makes sense because it says something frankly terrifying about the Vorlon mindset. It goes straight back to Deathwalker, they don't do half measures, they tend towards extreme brutality when solving things. This episode reminds me of that. Even their treatment of Sebastian is vicious. He is trapped and made to continue being the monster he now knows he was mistaken in being. It's not redemption, it's his own torture. You don't say inquisitor and expect a misogynistic psychopath who will literally be torturing you from an ally. He IS trying to kill her because that is why he was chosen. Was it Jeffrey Dahmer running Jeff's course? I'm guessing not, which is why it's a false equivalency. I'm also surprised that Jeff and Brent have missed just how low Delenn has been brought by her treatment by both Minbari and Humans this season. She has not been in a good place. It's where I wish the show had maybe done a little bit about how that factored in to the Vorlon choice to brutalise her. I don't buy that it was a 'teaching', because they used someone who could and would kill her if she didn't meet the standard. There are other things that feed in to the question of the The One/the chosen one, but those are small details I'll leave for you to find on the rewatch. I think B5 may have been one of the first shows to realise that you can get good cheap actors from a theatrical background from the UK, even before The Wire found Idris Elba. Wayne Alexander however was from California which is impressive because I can often catch questionable British accents, and his is very, very good. I loved how sinister his performance was with how minimally he did things, and I saw someone do a Jack the Ripper cosplay that was heavily inspired by this. As for Buffy, if Jeff fancies rewatching it I would advise doing so on a small screen - I'm watching it again at the moment and if I took a drink every time I spotted Buffy's stunt double, there are episodes that could kill me. It was maybe always there, but it is far, far worse on a big screen. Spike and Drusilla's accents are very rough to listen to, at least until later series where James Marsters apparently got to spend more time with Anthony Head his season 6 accent is much better than season 2. The Vorlon's feel more quasi-Buddhist to me. There might be a Be-Do, but I don't feel like they have a Have. I don't think the analysis of the Vorlons by that lens works as well as the inverse does for the Shadows. Not that I think it was bad analysis, quite the opposite, but I feel like other lenses may work better.
IIRC all those biblical references are there because one of the most plausible theory about the person behind Jack the Ripper was a reverend. I really find interesting the use of the character of Jack the Ripper in order to present Sebastian's own penitence: being an anonymous person would require of more background exposition on the late reveal in order to explain who Sebastian is and why the Vorlons chose him. By presenting a known despicable character all that background is already in the viewers knowledge so there's less to expose. For me this is a great episothe. The more you talk about it the greater it becomes.
A Friend of mine watched B5 for the first time with her bf (he knew it already) and I was very excited, so we agreed on sending messages back and forth with commentaries while they watched. At the end of 2x20, when Delenn introduces Sheridan to the Rangers and gives his speech "a line has been drawn against the darkness" we prepared her for "comes the inquisitor" with the commentaries: "well, Seems like Sheriden and Delenn might have a little messiah complex going on" - "yeah! maybe someone should tell them about that..."
So no, I don't think this could have easily been shown at a different timeslot, I think this is a direct continuation of 2x20s last scene...
This is true. I think part of the reason for the whole episode was to let them (Sheridan and Delenn) add some greater perspective to their vision of themselves and their roles in what is to come.
Yep also their relationship needs to be at a certain stage for this episode to work and to further advance that relationship.
Vorlons, like wizards, are never late, nor are they early. They send their inquisitors precisely when they mean to.
Obviously there were some big changes to the galaxy last episode. We need to know, *right now*, if our heroes are up for the challenges that come next. We didn't need to know a month ago, or at the beginning of the season. Whatever plans the Shadows had with helping the Centauri defeat the Narn, that could only be phase one, a phase which has now completed. What's phase two? Apparently something the Vorlons think Delenn and Sheridan need to be ready for.
Delenn is a priestess from a culture where priests and warriors are separated by a caste system, and where they have deeply held beliefs about not harming other members of their own species. It would be pretty unlikely for "Inquisitor" to mean the same thing to her as it would to us.
Also a very good point - I don’t think she expected the kind of interrogation she got, nothing in her background as a member of the Minbari religious caste would have prepared her for that.
I'm a little bit concerned for Jeff as a "leadership guru", insomuch as he does not question the propriety of the Vorlons sending a literal serial killer to torture someone, apparently at their whim. I'm glad Brent brought this up, so at least they got there eventually.
I'll try and do better, bringing up every single aspect of every single thing in the future...
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime I didn't mean the comment to sound accusatory or judgemental, sorry if it did.
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime We'll hold you to that, lol. Hope you have more fun in the next episode!
Also, considering how Sebastian reacts to Delenn saying that he's lashing out at anyone who thinks they're special because he failed to change the world...is he lashing out at her to regain control over the situation, was it an unacceptable answer, or did she strike a nerve? The last option is a distinct possibility, because she's completely right. The Vorlons did choose him for this task because he was a deluded would-be visionary whose holy quest only succeeded in inflicting pain and misery on people. He's here because the Vorlons thought he was a perfect bad example of someone with a messiah complex.
Exactly. And Delenn overcame her own messiah complex in the process. And part of this overcoming was understanding and expressing just how meaningless Sebastian's own previous messiah complex had been. (He gave her cues, though. If you read all his 'so you think you're special? a Chosen One?' bullying as directed not really at her but at himself... you can see he was giving her the right answer right there, if she could be courageous enough to take it and run with it.)
And don't forget that this was Sebastian's penance. Every time in the last 400 years he's seen somebody fail the test, he's seen himself reflected back.
Yes he's the antigen-test. Lest you have what he has cause that would be bad.
Pay close attention to the expression on Sebastian's face when Delenn admits that she has doubted her destiny, that was not the answer he was expecting, it totally took him off-guard. The break he gave her after that was not for her, it was for him, because he needed to get himself back together after that.
Why Jack the Ripper? I believe it was an inspiration from Ellison, but it also, I think is meant to make us question the Vorlons. Seriously, if they can allow someone like him to be their servant, and allow him to continue to be sadistic, what does that tell us about them? Who are the Vorlons?
Who better to look for a "chosen" one than somebody who believed themselves to be chosen and was taught by the Vorlons in great detail just how wrong they were? I think that's right on the money: We learn a whole lot about the Vorlons by their choice here.
And their having chosen Jack shows, by the way, that they had been looking for someone. It's this whole "we had a plan going on long before this whole thing started" that first becomes visible here...
@@Asehpe True. It's significant that we learn the Inquisitor failed before. The Vorlons are powerful, sure, and they've been around Earth for a long time. But clearly, their resources are limited, and they cant learn or know everything with ease.
JMS comments on the Lurkers Guide about this episode are very much in line with this. This adds a bit of moral ambiguity to the Vorlons. Using Jack was not a whim but a very thought out act.
By this time you should be very concerned about the Vorlons. They use Jack the Ripper to test people to find the right one(s) to fight a war against a powerful, ruthless enemy. They step in to prevent a “lesser race” from discovering immortality, which they probably already posses themselves. They put a unassuming telepath through mental torture seemingly for unknown reasons and are cryptic as to why when confronted. They agree to send an ambassador to a place dedicated to developing mutual understanding between different peoples, yet rarely participate in doing anything of the kind, only beginning to take an interest as two of the other races go down a path that leads to war between them. They refuse to offer any assistance to the people hurt by that war: They are a dying people. Let them pass. About the only positive thing they have done is hide Dr. Jacobs and not choose sides in “Believers”. And yet again that was more because they couldn’t be bothered with the trivial affairs of lesser beings. To quote a viewer from another B5 podcast, these guys are shady.
G'Kar is in a very dark place and needs support from those around him and we see that obviously with Sheridan using the Rangers to help him. What's interesting to think about with the Vir scene is that G'Kar does not need words but action which is what he gets from Garibaldi in the episode. It's one thing to be sorry and offer your sympathies but it's another to actually provide aid which is what Garibaldi does.
I'll message you on Twitter on a couple of things you may not have noticed
I forgot about that scene! The Garibaldi's smuggling scene makes a great interaction.
A lot of that is positional, though. Garibaldi, in his position, can provide action. Anything Vir can do will be, at best, invisible to G'Kar and will likely have little impact. It's a very "human" thing to want to, at a minimum, express that we care, even if are unable to affect change ourselves. (For the record, I (Jeff) and am positive Vir is doing what he is able to, but, face-to-face with G'Kar he felt compelled to say something)
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime Understandable, but let's not forget that Vir isn't just some guy! He is Londo's right hand and the man who fetched Mr. Morden knowing that a war will happen by doing so. Don't get me wrong, I love Vir and think he is being honest here but also there's a guilt within him and the sorry is a way of unloading his burden but that's not G'Kar's responsibility, he's not here to pat Vir on the shoulder and tell him he's a good dude.
People love this series because what happens is earned. It's not a one-episode story arc where G'Kar instantly forgives Vir, Delenn and Sheridan instantly just are the Chosen One, or whatever else you think will happen (not saying any of those things will). Just like real life, things take time, and often things don't turn out how you hope. Some people realize things too late to make any difference. Some people go down dark paths and don't become better for it. Some really surprise you at how quickly they can change. G'Kar once said said not everyone on B5 is exactly what they seem. Don't be so sure you can predict where things will go, and don't be in so much of a rush to get there. The pay-off is worth it, moreso because everything that happens happens exactly when it means to.
This episode is probably well-loved in the fandom. I don't really know to be honest. I like it, and I know how significant it is thematically. There are things JMS wants to say, things that Gene Roddenberry didn't want to, or didn't have inside him. That's sometimes why we get cranky when you talk about "Star Trek messages". This is a series with B5 messages.
I know y’all have long since moved past this episode, but I wanted to throw a bit of trivia at you: Wayne Alexander (who plays Sebastian) is not in the least bit British; he was born and raised in California. And yet, his accent is so good, most Brits can’t tell he’s not native to their shores.
that's fun
I really enjoyed this episode on first watch. The scene near the end where Delenn talks about how if she falls then another will take her place gives me chills.
Me too. It is the emotional center of this episode.
And the nuance of Wayne Alexander...
The bit where she gets quiet and admits she's considered the notion that she's not up to the task...
Sebastian is truly shaken by her answer- that one of the Army of Light's leaders would admit that is not at all what he expected, certainly not the answer he wanted- and his expression says so much in just a few seconds before he speaks again.
It’s interesting when Brent talked about not needing a redemption story for Jack the Ripper, I immediately thought about how after the testing, Jack said maybe now the Vorlons will let him die. He’s in his own hell
Yeah, it doesn't sound much like redemption. More like "You made a grave mistake, but it makes you a useful tool for us, so off you go". It's not like the Inquisitor stands to gain any kind of relief other than death.
Maybe not a hell, but he is tired. I kind of pity him. In order to make him the Inquisitor they needed, the Vorlons confronted him with the fact that his previous beliefs -- that he was the Chosen One, the one who would right wrongs and set the world in balance -- were all bullshit... I can imagine the deadening sense of emptiness that results from that.
@@Asehpe This comes back to something I feel Brent really missed with "And Now For A Word". There are times when an episode is really giving you a perspective from someone else. That episode subtly keyed you in to how things on Earth were going, it was so much more than a recap. Here we are given some really creepy details about the Vorlons, their sheer brutality. The obvious one is Delenn, the less obvious one is Jack who is being tortured in a very different way and has been for centuries.
This episode had to be right where it is. Delenn gave John equal authority over the rangers in the last episode
While I can understand questions of the placement of this story, I think in universe it fits -- Kosh waited until now because he had been watching Delenn, but now he senses things might become much more intense and he needs to make sure she -- and Sheridan -- were truly the right people. Remember what he said he was going to do for Sheridan? Make sure he got to know himself. It's about him as much as Delenn.
I think Kosh counted on Sheridan trying to save Delenn, but I don't see this being a test of John. Note that he is never asked "Who are you?". As a matter of fact Sebastian calls John a soldier. So he knows who he is.
@@moreeyecandy remember, Kosh said from the beginning Sheridan is going to be trained to learn who he is and it would be necessary to know himself before he fought legends. He already has been given the question. He doesn't need it again for him to continue on with the education. And Sebastian made it clear, imo, when Sheridan showed, that the final player was there, so that Sheridan was always a part of the whole, which is why his speech at the end is for both of them. Sheridan, of course, in the end, does what Kosh said he is being trained to do -- he fights a legend, Jack the Ripper. And he takes Jack down after Jack has no power over him.
@@hornorsilk2901 Again, John was never asked by Sebastian "Who are you". Instead Sebastian tells John who he (meaning Sheridan) is. He does ask him "What is SHE to you?". He asks tons of other questions but John doesn't even TRY to answer any of them. As a matter of fact it is Delenn who ends the inquisition by reminding Sebastian it is her he is suppose to be focusing on. And she finally answers him in the way that releases both her and John.
This is not because she is more important than John, simply that it is her Kosh has significant doubt about. And she was being tested because she was doubting herself. John wasn't doubting himself but then he didn't have all the information at this point in time.
@@moreeyecandy He doesn't have to ask John that because John is continuing the training which involves that training.
@@moreeyecandy
Sebastian’s reaction when Sheridan arrived tells us that he expected him and that he was a part of the process - it was a test and/or lesson for both.
I think Kosh is at the stage where he is like "Eh, kids! Get off my lawn and stop making a ruckus!"
I love how the general appreciation for this episode increased as you discussed it :) And you're right, it IS generally a fan favourite, and you WILL likely come to appreciate it more in the overall context of the show.
Lots of other great comments here too, about its placement in the season - I can't find it now, but there was a good take below on how it perfectly follows up "TLTS".
Thoughts on "The Chosen One" as used here vs. a standard SciFi/fantasy trope: I saw Sebatian's use of it as very sarcastic. It's possible Delenn wouldn't even full understand it as it's something more common to human storytelling, and she does have the damndest gaps in her vocabulary. Also, Zathras referring to "the One" can be attributed in part to his broken English. Yes, there is a meaning to it (no spoilers, not saying if Zathras returns or not, but more might just be revealed eventually) but it's not some mystical "will bring balance to the force/light to Mordor/blah blah blah" cliche. JMS may tweak with such cliches now and then, but he's never one to rely on them.
And finally, as far as "why does Kosh need to be sure about Delenn NOW?" keep in mind that there are a lot more Vorlons besides Kosh, who have not be directly observing Delenn. So maybe it's not just him who is unsure (despite Lennier's phrasing).
Every TV producer everywhere: "You can't just put two characters in a room and have them do nothing but talk to each other for the bulk of the episode. It's just not compelling entertainment."
JMS: "Hold my beer."
I think the sarcasm at the name of the Narn homeworld isn't really necessary. People who live on glass planets should not be the first to throw stones. Look at us. Earth. Named for dirt. And what did we decide to call the one moon that orbits our world? The moon.
There are also jokes about how many deserts are just local word for desert. Sahara, Gobi and maybe one or two others! just found an article "11 totally redundant place names" which includes Lake Tahoe and the Mississippi River
@@neilbiggs1353River Avon.
@@simongiles9749 Yep. It happens a lot!
"Delenn should have acted differently -- she just kept saying Sebastian was mean, when she knew she was being tested..."
I think of this episode as being JMS' way to introduce two things: first, the question "Who are you?", attributed implicitly to the Vorlons, in opposition to the question the Shadows kept asking, "What do you want?". And second, the idea that there was a Vorlon Plan: they knew things would start at some point, so they had been preparing. These preparations involved people like Delenn, but also even 19th-century Earthligns like Sebastian.
JMS apparently struggled with the old debate in history about whether "big" historical change is the result of the action of special individuals, or of historical forces. Sebastian clearly thinks that "big individuals" don't really exist: he keeps saying "so, Delenn, do you think you're special? That you have a destiny? A purpose? The prophecy was about you! You're Delenn, the Chosen One!" -- and he gave up, and considered her worthy, when she finally offered to die for Sheridan's life, saying "if I die, someone else will take my place!"
This suggests support for the "historical forces, not individuals, determine 'big' historical changes." Delenn is basically saying: "no, it doesn't have to be me. If I die, someone else will take my place -- because the time is ripe, there are others who can do what I can do, I simply happen to be the one who was here and who jumped into action, but others could do it and will do it if I die!"
And yet, Sebastian concludes his Inquisition with the words, "so you are the right people, at the right place, at the right time"-- thus suggesting that there is something special about Delenn (and Sheridan!), something that others could not provide. What is it then? Is the Great People theory of history supported by Sebastian's final verdict? Or is the "invisible hand", "historical forces" theory supported by the fact he conceded Delenn had what it takes to fulfil her role when she said she wasn't special, when she said saving life, even sacrificing one's own for it, was all -- when she said others would take her place if need be?...
As the problem of the soul in Soul Hunter (who was right -- the Soul Hunters who wanted to save souls from dissolving into nothingness after death, or the Minbari who wanted to set them free so they could reincarnate?), I don't think JMS gives an answer. He both says that Delenn (and Sheridan!) are the right people -- "Great People" theory -- and that others would take their place -- "historical forces." Make of that what you will.
I think is is also saying it takes both. That a big person can't do anything without historical momentum supporting them but also that historical momentum also can't di it without a focal point or points to condense around. That a big person (it doesn't needed to be a specific individual and can even be more then one person. As a group or individually and can even be more then one person sequentially) is needed to take advantage of or start the historical momentum but that historical momentum is needed for the big person to have a chance to succeed.
I think the thing about Delenn pushing back and Lenier interfering is that this isn’t just a drill Sargent, this is someone who will actually kill her. He isn’t just being hard on her. That’s how I read it when I watch it anyway p.
This has always been one of my fav B5 episodes. I think because the line of questioning around “who are you?” really resonated with me when I watched it for the first time as a teenager haha.
Always enjoy your reactions btw! Can’t wait for next week’s!
Next week!! Whoo!!
love your guys reaction as always. One great thing your guys reaction brings as and old time fan of Babylon 5 is bringing new insight myself into old episodes what they did and where they were placed in the series and why. Your doing a great job would say some more about your reaction but I think their would be to many spoilers that you try to avoid. The one thing I will say you did a great job breaking down the episode though I think you can look back at this episode again even after the season finally and see possibly why this was the episode right before it. I will leave it at that keep up the great job guys.
Speaking of Vir changing... Yes, Vir has gone through some things, hasn't he? When you compare the funny, awkward guy who didn't know how to be an attaché to the Centauri Ambassador from Season 1 with this Season 2 Vir, we see a change, don't we? And I don't think it's a spoiler to say that everybody everywhere in this show is also changing as we watch them.
G'Kar famously said to Catherine Sakai that 'nobody here (on B5) is exactly as he appears to be'. I would also add: nobody here will also end exactly as he (or she) was at the beginning. That's one consequence of events, especially big historical events as we're witnessing: when they touch you, they change you, and you cannot just remain the same. You make your choices under stressful conditions while extremely important things are happening all around you; and these decisions will put you in paths that will end with you no longer being who you used to be. We're always the result of all our choices (+ the unavoidable outside events and influences), and never is that so clear as in moments of great historical change, such as B5 is portraying. Vir is not the same, but neither is Londo, nor is G'Kar... nor is anyone else, though it may take a little longer for us to see that.
Life is like that. It changes you. 🙂
Brent, thank you for sharing your experience of being a stay at home dad.
I had the same conversation with my wife at the time and left my job of 10 years to be a stay at home dad. It did not go as well and my struggles in that role may have been one of the contributing factors in that marriage’s failure.
But in knowing myself now and my limits allows me to support and care for my elderly mother while working full time.
Being a stay at home dad is a hard job. You have my respect for stepping up to the joys and challenges.
I didn't like this episode at first, because I didn't get it and I did think of Jacks reveal as being corny as well. But the more I watch this episode, the more I like it. Now I think someone like Jack is the perfect candidate for this position. He saw a darkness and he felt he had to draw a line, because he saw no one else doing it. So he stepped up and took it upon himself to fight the darkness. But he did it for the wrong reason and with the wrong methods and goal. He saw himself as a holy Warrior, but he was a dark one. So he would know what to look for and what to tease out of someone who is mentally in a similar situation to get to the core of their motivation and be sure that they don't get off the right path...
Here's also something else..... G'Kar was also being tested in this one -- and he too had to come to know himself and trust in who he was becoming. So the two plot connect.
Thank you guys, the be, do, have part was very much needed for me as i have been aligned with the shadows for a very long time.
its a 50/50 episode. Some love it, some hate it. But NEXT WEEK, NEXT WEEK, SEASON FINALE. Next week is what I am waiting for.
Look, we had the conclusion of the Narn Centauri war last week. That’s probably kind of the unofficial season finale. I expect next week will just be some rounding up and tidying things up.
@@cb361 But was it the conclusion ? Last episode, The Centaury bombed the Narn Homeworld from orbit. Is that the conclusion ? Narns getting pummeled in to submission is an end to the war ?
We are REALLY excited for the finale. The Long Twilight Struggle set the bar high and we're excited to see this one pop right over it!
I liked the Jack the Ripper reveal.
To me, the reason why the Vorlons choose Jack was because he was so sure he was the chosen one. He was absolutely certain that what he was doing was right!
The Vorlons wanted someone who had that view that they were chosen and then the Vorlons could show them that they are wrong. But. That tenacity, possibly that quality (?), of believing that one is right could then be harnessed to categorically confirm to the Vorlons that they have found the right person.
I remember hearing from my friend that one of his friends wanted to start a franchise company. He wanted to hire someone with experience. He didn't hire someone who had succeeded, but hired someone who had failed 5 times. Because this person absolutely, after failing 5 times, knew why he failed and how to help others to not make the same mistakes. Someone who succeeds on the first time isn't normally aware of all the reason why they succeeded.
Just my thoughts.
CLUB 65!
I refer to this episode as "Jack the Ripper's lecture on virtue ethics".
I like that Jeff said he would bet "credits" 👍
You don’t always get closure at the end of an episode with B5. Sometimes, it can even take seasons, like if you look at Vir’s apology. You have to look back to what happened the last time a Centauri tried to apologize to G’Kar to understand his reaction.
As for Delenn not understanding, the Membari do not harm other Membari, so she probably would not expect an ally like the Vorlons would send someone who seems like he works for the Shadows to challenge her. Them using Jack also causes the viewer to start to question the Vorlons.
Delenn roars. The power of her as a person is laid bare. On this podcast it has been discussed how Delenn began very still, and is now more expressive, and demonstrative. The onion peal that you have had so far tells you that she has the force of personality, and utter belief in prophecy, that she puts it upon herself to set that prophecy in motion. But for the Vorlons, the power of the personality is not enough. The person must also have the ability to let go of ego.
Yes, JMS having his "million years in either direction" understanding of the story is why the question is posed to begin with. But that's the only way to write an episode on how the Vorlons perceive the people who are going to be fighting in this war.
Why Jack the Ripper? And why reveal that at all?
Second question first: the question asked throughout this part of the story is "Who are you?", so, of course, at least some of the audience would want to know that of the Inquisitor.
The Inquisitor had to be an important enough figure to be the title character for the episode, someone that could easily be considered to have had a messiah complex without a lot of explanation to meet the needs of the story, and for all the importance of the character, the audience would need to want him to go way and never come back. A lot of bad people throughout history would work character-wise, but at that time there were a number of shows on trying to figure out who Jack the Ripper was. Who better to grip the audience with, while at the same time reversing the pop culture asking of "who was he?" "Who are you?" Also, it further impresses the idea first properly expressed in Deathwalker, that the Vorlons are quite morally grey. ("You are not ready for immortality." being Kosh's logic there.)
G'Kar and Vir: three words, long form storytelling. These guys are in the middle of their stories. Any more answers are spoilers.
if the Vorlon wanted to bring Sheridan and Delenn closer then he succeeded.
He was making them "the one"
The "Jack" reveal never felt off to me, possibly because I called it in my first time viewing on TV from his opening conversation with Sheridan.
- Man from late 1800s London.
- Focus on the immorality of humanity (one thing to note next time you watch this is where his eyes go as the camera shows his point of view).
- Intense creepy aura.
- Mysteriously vanished one day from his old life in London.
I've always liked it because it feels actually relevant to the plot. So often, historical references in SciFi are made just for the sake of it, but in this case, the Inquisitor's identity as a serial killer and all the different interpretations trying to put some kind of higher meaning on the "Jack the Ripper" case really add to the whole interrogation. It tells you so much about how the Vorlons approach this situation, what they deem worthy in the people they choose, and how they treat their allies/servants.
Jeff: "Just tell us she's the one, why drag it out?"
Fandom: "Hey Jeff, remember when you complained about exposition dumps? Show, don't tell."
Is it a favorite of OG fans? I'd say overall, yes. There are lots of detractors, certainly, but it seems most of us have grown to appreciate it far more over time. It took me a few viewings to really get it and appreciate the story being told. Yes, it gives us more insight into the **REDACTED** but it also tells its own complete story about Sebastian; and it does that without actually being "about" Sebastian. It's very well constructed to work on several levels, Wayne Alexander is spectacular, and it moves the overall story forward in a subtle and unexpected way.
It does stand out to me, but not as better than average; just as weirder than average. I can't call it bad either, but it's just so strange and out-of-left-field that I can't put it anywhere in the context of the rest of the show.
I like that - completely agree that it was well constructed. It's also probably a lot different on rewatches.
I have never believed in the idea that breaking someone down makes them stronger. "He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom." -JRR Tolkien.
Never served in the Armed forces, obviously
@@MrDdaland Nope! Absolute respect and honour to anyone who has, but I personally am glad to not be eligible.
@@MrDdaland Making somebody better at following orders and killing/dying isn't the same thing as strength.
@@fakecubedPerhaps you should ask Hitler, or Napoleon about that? Or if you like, I suppose I can quote Orwell or maybe even some Kipling at you
Breaking people doesn't make them stronger. It just makes then lose their self-confidence, thus making them weaker.
Vir is only the second Centari to apologize for atrocities committed against the Narn.
Unfortunately, this time around, G'Kar was not in the right frame of mind to listen...
@@lordpuki1375 Even if he was, the last time a Centauri apologized, they were at war very shortly thereafter.
I never interpreted Sabastian's use of the term "chosen one" as literally endorsing that Delenn was that, but simply that important people with delusions of grandeur often believe they are "the chosen one" or "favored of God". And once they come to believe that their purpose and task no matter how noble has become corrupted.
So the inquisitor was trying to weed out anyone who believed they were uniquely special.
Vir and G'Kar... I liked Jeff's approach to it: G'Kar was saying, how can the dead forgive you if they're dead, and there are so many of them? Who are you apologizing to? The dead can't hear you!... But I'd add to it: Vir is in the position of all those who felt the burden of "collective guilt". Whether it be European slavers when confronted with descendants of former slavers, or today's Russians when confronted with the Ukrainians whose existence they deny to the extent of committing atrocities against them -- is there a place for a feeling of guilt even if you are not directly responsible for anything at all?
Can anyone wash their hands of the crimes of their people and say, "I had nothing to do with it -- I have nothing to apologize for?"
So I complement Jeff's perspective with this view: Why does Vir feel the need to apologize? Is it right that he feels the need to apologize? Also, should G'Kar accept his apologies? If not now -- "too soon" -- then later at some point? Leaving aside the obvious modern parallels of the Russo-Ukrainian war, consider Jews and the Holocaust: Germans have apologized for it, already during the Nazi regime, and certainly after it. And there were Germans, many Germans, who were not directly responsible for anything. Their 'crime' was to do nothing, to keep their eyes and ears shut, to do the possible to 'not know' that there was something going on... if later on they apologize, is their apology acceptable? Or do you have to be an anti-Nazi partisan or guerilla fighter, à la Sophie Scholl, to earn your forgiveness first?
The Germans have a large literature of thoughts, books, articles on this exact topic -- what is the responsibility of "ordinary Germans", what is their moral status, when the greatest moral crime in history was committed right next to them, by people who claimed to be speaking on their behalf, to be perpetrating said crime on their behalf?
Whatever Vir feels, it is a complicated thing. I respect that, and I recognize the difficulty in analyzing and deciding it. I hope his moral compass will take him in the right direction.
There was a line that Sebastian had that I thought was interesting. He said something like "The Vorlons showed me a world of majesty and terror i could never dream of". This goes with what Jeff was saying about the Vorlons bieng morally grey.
I agree with Brent here - this wasn't for Kosh's benefit.
Consider: Delenn entered the Chrysalis thinking she was fulfilling prophecy, and bridging humans and Minbari. But since then, she's been rejected by humans (GROPOS, And Now For A Word), she's been rejected by Minbari (A Distant Star, All Alone in the Night, There All The Honour Lies), even her own body is a mystery to her(Soul Mates).
She's gone from being the confident Satai that can face down Neroon to ... what, exactly?
The Inquisitor, in part, was to reignite her self confidence, to help her discover Who Are You? again.
Plus there's the flipside of it also being Sebastian's punishment. If she fails, he sees another reflection of himself, if she passes he recognises his own failings.
Something that dud occur to me; the Ripper didn't sem to have tortured anyone. His victims were largely.killed quickly, and any mutilation was post-mortem (and also no signs of sexual assault). A psychopath undoubtedly,but not a sadist. Possibly he even thought he was "saving" his victims from a life where pretty much any other man that they encountered *would* have treated them as objects more than people. Maybe I've just read "From Hell" too many times....
I do think some people assume there is also a connection between JMS and his relationship with his father being played out with Sebastian. This can explain in part Delenn's pointing out Sebastian's faults, perhaps having her question things herself, and maybe that is also a part of the journey. You can't really know who you are if you are unwilling to question what others are saying and doing, even if they say they are doing it for your own good. To truly be true to herself, she will have to question Sebastian, for he doesn't seem to be on the side of life.
You are beginning to see more of the depth of this show your discussion shows that. I kept thinking I was back in my college freshman English literature class when we discussed the meanings of a rose in a vase on a mantle, except I really enjoy your discussion. You both would be far better literature teachers than I ever had.
A friend pointed me to this channel on Saturday, and I totally enjoyed dipping into your analyses of far too many episodes in the limited time.
A bunch of us gathered for each episode on their first screenings in the UK and whilst I agree with many of your points, the question I feel you missed - it's also really subtly hidden - is why would the Vorlons use Jack as an inquisitor. Why would a brutal serial killer be acceptable.
The fact he, JMS, drives that point home at the very end of the episode had us talking.
Anyway, I'm hooked. You guys are great!
Sebastian would never let her get the right answer until Sheridan was there. Sheridan was also being challenged. Until he was there, all Sebastian would do is torture Delenn.
I disagree. He would have to eventually introduce Sheridan, true, but I don't think he was just torturing Delenn. He was, I think quite rightfully, showing the problems implicit with a messianic vision of oneself -- I"m the Chosen One, I am the only one who can do these things, I have a mission!
I like to think that ANYONE coming into the room would have been captured and questioned by Jack.
And Delenn would have given the same sacrifice answer for ANYONE. It just happened to be Sheridan
This was never my favorite episode, but it is a very interesting episode. It forces you to ask some questions you might not have previously asked. To be clear, this is very much a "journey matters more than the destination" episode. It was never going to be revelatory that Delenn and Sheridan were the right people in the right place at the right time. The audience already knows that particular answer the moment the question is brought up. If they weren't the chosen ones, we wouldn't be following them so closely.
So, why have the storyline at all? Because the process has value. The process is what raises the questions. Here is why I think Jeff is wrong about the Jack reveal. Yes, it's supposed to be a somewhat shocking twist, but it's more than that. It is a succinct declaration about the true nature of the inquisitor that pretty much everyone will immediately understand. Is he just some true believer doing something distasteful to serve a greater purpose? No. He's a psychopath who got off on butchering women that he felt were "dirty" or impure. From what we see on his walk with Sheridan, he still holds the same views he did back in Victorian England. So, the facts that we are left with is that the Vorlons kidnapped a serial killer, broke him to their will (given the delivery, the Vorlons teaching Sebastian the error of his ways probably didn't involve extensive therapy), and then used him to "test" God only knows how any potential champions. You also have to wonder how many people Sebastian tortured in the service of the Vorlons, and how many of those people did he end up killing? Sebastian had been working for the Vorlons for over 400 years. You have to figure some of those people were true believers. They wouldn't have given up any more than Delenn did. They would have believed until the very end that there was a way to successfully complete the challenge, and that they would find it. Furthermore, it's not like this would have been a surprise to the Vorlons. I mean, the Vorlons knew what his methods were, and they knew the results. The fact that they kept using him meant they were ok with both. Hell, the way Sebastian delivers the line, clearly it was the Vorlons who said that Sebastian was perfectly suited to the task. What does it say about the Vorlons, that they would do such a thing? Are they not what they seem, or is what needs to be done just that vital that they can't afford to take ANY chances? Those were the questions the episode made me ask, at least. So, while not my favorite episode, an interesting one at the very least.
'
Jeff’s anecdote about the leader ship training thing does not fly for me. Yes there may have been tough questions asked, there may have been someone driving for what someone is really there for, but I highly doubt there was electric torture involved. The situations are not comparable.
Are you saying managers/people running training seminars may not be sociopaths? Let alone psychopaths who actually killed people? I'm shocked I tell you... ;-)
I would definitely compare this episode more to Waltz than Duet, this is a good episode and it's major objectives are the show you the Vorlon question as well as to hint just how much they have dicked around with the past of the "younger" races. Other than that, it sets up the next phase of Gkar's story. But I don't know many who hold this episode in high regard. It sets up the future of the story, but does little else.
I can say a lot. But I will say this. Without this episode, the next episode would not happen.
Honestly.. the message I took from this was, while all the points thar they did bring up matter was, "IWe are the people hear, in the position to do something, not special, not chosen, but just the people in the best position to do what is needed. If we fall, someone else will rise to replace us."
The point being, they are the right people because they don't think they are "chosen".
I generally agree with the trap of seeing Delenn as human with human points of view, when she is, in her head anyway much more Minbari. Also, one of the core considerations of any true Minbari is more about their motivation, their purity of purpose and not the resulting action(s).
She had to reach the point that she, the Chosen One would not only be willing to lead and die for the cause...she must be willing to lay down her life for someone, even if nobody ever knew about her act or why she, the Chosen One died or dissapeared.
I confess that I too didn't enjoy this episode the first time or maybe even the second. It now means a lot more seeing Delenn sheading her Mimbari mental armor and training and stripped down to just one being caring for and even sacrificing for another...be it minbari, human, a billion or just one single solitary life.
About your criticism on Delenn: She isn't used to that. It is a completely new situation. She was a Satai, a member of the Grey Council. And now somebody comes along and treats her like that? But the main lesson about this that Delenn and Sheridan can't stand the upcoming events alone, only together. This is what this was all about. They have to trust each other and fight the thing together to succeed. That was also Sebastian's final verdict when he said that THEY passed.
I am not condoning or possibly suggesting that Babylon 5 could be remade in a satisfactory manner to my liking.... but if it were to come to fruition I need the background music for Sebastian in this episode to be by Atrium Carceri: Ruins of Desolation. If the Perfection of this statement cannot be realeyesed, then you are the one missing out....
I feel like Jeff's comments regarding JMS telling us a story in a vacuum with this episode is, if not entirely on point, very similar to how I felt about it on the first viewing. Starting from the third viewing or so, this actually became one of my favorites. I will say that Jack the Ripper wasn't entirely necessary as a reveal, but someone LIKE him was, and he is a particularly famous example.
Definitely One of My all time favorite episodes of B5. And that reveal at the end... Epic.
The episode believers could be deleted and the show as a whole would be better off... Where as this episode stands as a testament of the layered and nuanced story telling that B5 is known for. It is a shining example of the Best of B5.
"We have sent for an inquisitor"... Not "I have sent for an inquisitor" This is an important distinction that you both seem to have missed.
Jeff was closer in his prediction because he identified Sheridan as the one the inquisitor was coming for... it just so happens that the inquisitor started with Delenn. And yeah it's really the both of them together... that's important.
Sure it's a "cheap" episode that didn't require as much post processing... but the character development and insights into the perspective of the Vorlans and the depths to which they can go... Truely an episode to come back to again and again.
I think the point if using Jack the ripper was largely as a cautionary tale, one about how a person can do great harm thinking themselves "Chosen" while Delenn says during the episode. "If I die, another will take my place"
It tears apart the chosen one trope and points in some ways to it's not that someone was a chosen one, but that they were the right person in the right place at the right time and are remembered by history instead of forgotten as a failure.
Sebastian's lines at the end as he's leaving. About how wrong he was and how everything he tried to do failed and was forgotten.
The actor really nailed the facial expressions as he was giving those lines, his face warring with with he wanted to achieve and the pain of failing because he was so wrong.
JMS had very practical reasons for using Jack, he goes into it at length in the Lurkers guide
@@MrDdaland I'm gonna have to find time to look for the Lurker's guide at some point. Been a fan of the show since it aired but never interacted with the community or knew about the Lurker's guide till recently.
Jeff, if you find yourself complaining about what a victim says to their torturer, you might want to pause and reflect. A part of this episode was definitely trying to teach something, but who was doing the teaching and did anybody learn anything?
That's such a good way of putting it.
@Jeff I suppose you could make the argument that the show can just tell us who 'the one' is. I think that can vary from story to story. People just being "the chosen" or whatever, can sometimes come off as lazy if there's no reasons given besides, they just randomly are. In a movie, you can sometimes get away with it, but in a TV show with a huge amount of time, why would you just toss such a great opportunity for character building? They will be called to run a war against an ancient race. Something that neither of them has ever done. Can they even do it? I think it's fair to apply some pressure and see if the structures of power can hold up, because if they can't here and and now, then we have a big problem. This is one of my favorites just because of its simplicity, great acting, and depth of message that you guys sorta uncovered more and more as you spoke about it. I think as the show continues you will find this episode is....the right episode, in the right place, at the right time.
I just love these guys! We lost internet power last Friday, so we are watching what we call the Babylon 5 after show. tonight ans everybody cant wait to see it. We watch each episode on the Roku Channel, and turned in to Your RUclips podcast. We enjoy it so much! you guys are thought provoking, and entertaining. I actually not into podcast but you two guys are a hoot! After my Friday night Babylon 5 viewing group finishes the series Jeff gave me a recommendation to tune in to a podcast for Battlestar Galactica I wish you guys would do it. Maybe in the future??
My first class as a seminary student, we watched this episode; it was the first episode of B5 I saw. Don't remember what he wanted us to get out of it. We also watched "Darmok" in that class, and talked about how English has been shaped by the Bible and other narratives.
Jack the Ripper was the perfect person to become Inquisitor because he came to understand his own hubris and evilness of his acts. Also he did not change all that much, given how he looked at B5 public corridors. So given Vorlons think using someone like him is fine, what does that say about them? And I really enjoyed the performance.
I am not saying you are right or wrong about Centauri expanding further, but that guy had a good point when he was arguing with G´Kar. Narns provoked and attacked and SNEAK ATTACKED civilian populations. Remember how Sinclair accused G´Kar being too cowardly for a straight up fight? They knew Centauri would steamroll them and still did it. G´Kar has a lot of good qualities but just as many bad ones and has a lot of growing up to do. If you are no longer considering Londo to be a good guy I would argue by same values neither is G´Kar.
Edit: JMS does in fact have THE alien of the show. And it is not Delenn actually. Nor G´Kar. The storyteller and main character, if you want to use that term in ensemble cast show is someone else. I think it will become clear as you continue watching who it is.
Regarding the "chosen one might not be chosen"-problem being only in JMS's head: Within the confines of this show, you are absolutely right. But I do believe it's worth acknowledging that virtually any audience will be familiar with the chosen-one trope and will have likely come to question it at some point. From that angle, I believe JMS is addressing an absolutely universal problem in storytelling here.
Yeah, the terms "protagonist syndrome" and "Messiah complex" exist for a reason.
@@Talisguy Also "plot armor," a common feature of messianic people.
Jeff: "Vir is *the man* !" Are you aware that the Latin word "vir" means "man"? Yes, I agree, Vir has grown tremendously over the two seasons. About your predictions, I can only say - wait and see ...
Yes, Jeff. The Niemueller quote is quite appropriate here.
Oh, yes ... the Shadow question and the Vorlon question. Two very important questions.
The Inquisitor (played by Wayne Alexander) and Delenn/Sheridan. is an excellent piece of theatre.
The Vir G'Kar elevator scene starts off uncomfortable and a little comical, then grows to a dramatic high.
Others may have told, Stephen Furst has said at conventions that the acting of Andreas was so powerful that he was brought into that state.
I love the scene between G'Kar and Garibaldi.
Yes, this is one of my favourites in season 2, and the opinions of it are divided.
About the comment about Sebastian being Jack, what does that say about the Vorlons?
Predictions. Right or wrong? cannot say, or there be spoilers.
Be seeing you!
This is an episode which some love, and others hate. It is one of the most divisive episodes, I think.
Yes, and I don't get why. I think it is a great episode on personhood, individuality, and the role of leaders ('important people'). I never understood the disdain some seem to have for it.
@@Asehpe agree-great character driven SF. Perhaps the identity of inquisitor bothers some (I thought it was great).
First off, with regards to this episode; the idea of testing (or vetting) your leadership (and if you ask me, your civil servants as well), to make sure that you have the right people, in the right place, at the right time, does really appeal to me (and trust me, this idea will come up later in the show as well), especially if we look at the whole of human history. Personally, i think humanity would benefit greatly, if we implemented something akin to this, as a way to weed out the wheat from the chaff, as it were. As with Brent's story, about him having doubts early on dealing with the fact that he decided to become a stay-at-home dad, is totally understandable (from a certain point of view) but if you ask me, i cannot think of a greater responsibility, than raising children, or a family. The fact that he eventually understood that, makes him an awesome person, and in my book, a great parent.
Thank you, Brent and Jeff
Remember this is not star trek things are not just warped up at the end of an episode sometimes it takes seasons to get and end/answer to something even sometimes small things. It also likes to show that history is not just about the big moments that the small ones can be just as or more important then the big ones. And it also shows that even when big historical things are happening everyday life still happens. Some of these low point episodes that you feel don't fit are just JMSreminding everyone that everyday real life is still happening even as big historical things take most people's attention.
...and Jeff *almost* takes it full circle with the "have, do, be" comment.
Because the unemployed cousin mentioned earlier has doobie.
Everyone has that “cousin.” There are two in my family, actually. -Brent
I do love this episode. I would watch it 10 times before watching Soul Hunter once. The thing I think you guys will eventually appreciate is the world building and character development that goes into episodes like this. The episode adds a little more to the B5 universe even though it doesn’t do much to push the shadow story forward. One of the great things about the series is that JMS took the time to build the B5 universe and provide moments like G’Kar and Vir in the elevator and learning that the Vorlons have been to Earth.
This episode also gives another very important piece of information that lot of people seem to miss. It gives a glimpse to how the Vorlons might not be quite so altruistic and purely good guys as they have been portrated as so far.
I am with Jeff on the re-watchability of this episode. I love the concept, I love what it brings to the universe, but yeah it doesn't need to be re-watched.
I love that Brent framed these two questions as coming from the Shadows ("What do you want?") and from the Vorlons ("Who are you?"). As I was rewatching the show along with the two of you, I noticed that, way back when Mr. Morden was walking around asking all the ambassadors what they wanted, Kosh too asked... I think it was Sheridan?... a question of his own. Kosh's question was in fact, "Who are you?"
Excellent episode and excellent discussion. Got into some deep stuff, which I think this episode deserves to evoke.
Cards on the table, I like this episode. I also like the cheese around who Sebastian really is. The take that the Vorlon's can find a means to redeem Jack the Ripper was not my take on first watching it.
In the earlier podcast on All Alone in the Night, I had said that Jeff's review had shocked me. I didn't give a reason at the time. This episode is the reason I was shocked, as that sum up of AAITN could easily be used in this episode with a few name changes.
I will say that discussion prompted me to re-evaluate that episode, raising it in my estimation, as the thematic links between the two are now more apparent once pointed out.
The interesting thing is Jeff rated AAITN far above this episode, seeing things in it I never connected the dots before. Whereas I rated this episode way above that one.
It shows its all horses for courses on what people get out of the various episodes, but that the programme did a stellar job of getting across the Who are You message and both Delenn and Sheridan learning/discovering who they are.
I am wanting to get into the whole who are you/what do you want thing but I am going to hold off for now as, to channel Kosh, it's not yet time
Loved this episode since day 1. Great job, Brent.
I originally thought it would be an interesting moment if G'Kar had gone to Vir to get the messages from the Narn families.
I hate to disagree on where this episode could have happened, but it was only last episode that Sheridan was given a role in the fight against the Shadows.
Up until now he was being taught by Kosh but there was no in-continuity expectation that he would be leading this. We as the audience who recognise that he's the main character understand this is going to end up on him but as far as everyone else is concerned in-universe this is all on Delenn and Sinclair. Sheridan has been fighting his own secret conflict against the Clark administration but only gained a position as leader in the larger fight last episode.
So, no, this had to come here and now because only after last episode did the Vorlons have all their pieces in place ready to move.
I won't say much on the A plot of this episode because of spoilers, but when watching the next episode just keep this A plot in mind. Don't expect any stunning revelations, but if you're paying attention next episode with this in mind then something should start to germinate in your subconscious that next season will gradually nurture.
You hope that G'Kar will forgive at least Vir? G'Kar doesn't know that Londo is the guy who is behind the alliance of the Centauri and the Shadow. For G'Kar, Londo is just a buffoon, but not a top level Centauri politician. What do you think, G'Kar would do with Londo if he knew that he is responsible for the current situation? I guess, something like sucking the marrow out of the bones and grinding the skull to powder would be a very appropriate description. And he would assure that the body would remain recognizable, so that everybody knew who that was.
The next episode, you will see why it’s the Season Finale, instead of the Long Twilight Struggle.
That's a lot of buildup!! Long Twilight Struggle set the bar VERY high!
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime Oh no doubt, but even if you still like Long Twilight Struggle better, which is possible, you’ll see why the next one is the Season ended.
This episode while not being the action packed ramp up that you guys thought it should have been given that its the lead up to the season ender, is pregnant with depth tgat really does a lot of heavy lifting, but like a good leader, goes unnoticed and not truly appreciated for what it really did in its time
On the note of the season 3 intro, I would highly recommend watching it at lest once, though a first/last episode view would be even better. I know Brett skips them, but I would suggest viewing. There are images for the future, yes, but they are more teasery than spoilery.
Brett has been skipping them? So he's never listened to S1 and S2 intro music?
The Jack the Ripper thing was SOOO Star Trek. I mean TOS Star Trek where they meet a historical person like Lincoln.
Or TOS where they meet Jack the Ripper
@@ianstopher9111 Did that happen? I forgot.
@@algi1 A Wolf in the Fold TOS episode w/Jack
If it was Star Trek, it would have been an excuse for the cast to all dress up in period costumes, meet Charles Dickens, attend a performance of the Mikado and show off their English accents.
@@cb361 "Remarkable, this planet looks exactly like a period film backlot." Spock puts on a top hat that hides his ears.
It's funny listening to your why JMS did this speech and thinking how wrong the take is. I'm patient. You'll find out eventually.
I think Jeff is overanalysing a bit - I rather wonder whether he would be as composed under torture like Delenn was. And as became clear through the ordeal, the answer he was looking for wasn’t any of the things Jeff mentioned (even sacrificing everything to go through the transformation in Crysalis). Brett’s point about the latter, that it may have been to teach Delenn and Sheridan about themselves is part of it. But I think there was a test for Delenn and Sheridan in it too - they wanted to know that it wasn’t vanity driving them in a quest for glory or recognition, but that they would be willing to do everything they could even if it meant ending up dying forgotten and anonymous. That, like Delenn said, if she dies someone else will take her place.
Also, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the fact that the Vorlon’s had chosen Jack the Ripper to conduct the inquisition. What does it say about them?
G’Kar’s story arc from pantomime villain to leader of Narns in exile has been amazing. Andreas Katsulas’ ability to convey emotion though tons of prosthetics is truly amazing.
Edit: also, I disagree with the idea that you could put this episode much earlier on the season if you exclude the G’kar story line. It could not come before the last episode, with Sheridan being introduced to the Rangers and making his almost messianic speech about “the line must be drawn here”. From the Vorlon perspective, this is the point where Sheridan and Delenn needed this lesson/test.
It's overanalyzing on one hand, and sort of "under-analyzing" on the other. He mentions he's disappointed in Delenn's behaviour during the interrogation. That's completely valid. But instead of going deeper into her character and trying to figure out why she might be behaving this way, Jeff veers into an excursion about his own experience. There's nothing wrong with bringing your own experience into the discussion, but you first have to question how applicable it is.
As many others have pointed out: The fact that Delenn is a completely different person with a different cultural background, isn't really acknowledged in this perspective. Nor is the fact that an interrogation and leadership exercise are vastly different circumstances.
@@MrMartechi
True, though Delenn is also a leader of the Minbari religious caste, where there is a hierarchy that determines what you’re told and what you expect of others. Who you are is defined by your position in the hierarchy, so her reaction to the interrogation makes sense from that perspective. I don’t think anything in her education and upbringing would have prepared her for the type of interrogation she was subjected to.
@@kardy12 Add to that the relationship she has with the Vorlons. Jeff brings up her decision to enter the Chrysalis as one of the things she could have brought up to show her strength.
But crucially, she only underwent the crysalis after consulting Kosh, after getting his blessing, so-to-say.
When making this powerful decision, she relied on the Vorlon's backing. Which is one more reason why she probably isn't prepared for this interrogation, where a Vorlon representative turns on her and forces her to face that adversity on her own. That is something she's never had to do before.
@@MrMartechiAlso Delenn has spent pretty much the entire season getting knocked by humans and Minbari for a decision that has wrought some massive and irrevocable changes to herself. She needed to be reminded of who she is at core.
@@simongiles9749 From that angle, the Inquisitor is oddly encouraging. He's pretty much the first one all season who pushes her to define her own identity, rather than putting labels like "freak" on her.
I'm shocked at the ratings! But I can't disagree with the discussion. I love psychological bottle episodes, so I love this one, but that's obviously a personal preference.
I've been growing my starter for six months, and made my first loaf and two baguettes yesterday and this morning. It tastes great.
To me, the episode is pretty good because it serves as the calm before the storm, but it also shows an escalation because the shadows are now starting to move openly, so the stakes are upped. It also says something about Delenn's past decisions. Everybody told her that she was filled with hubris in trying to fulfill the prophecy. I think this episode shows that she's a true believer, and willing to sacrifice for her beliefs. I think that it's also something of an extension with her mess up during the news interview. As a member of the Gray Council, she wasn't used to be questioned. Now that she's not, she's getting a whole bunch of crap all at once. I'm sure it gets better on a re-watch in context. Just my thoughts.
As always, interesting to hear your perspectives.
Production necessities required that there be episodes like this, with next to no CGI (so the toasters could focus on others) and a small budget to enable the big episodes like the last one. Gotta realize B5 was working with a budget roughly half of what STTNG/DS9 cost. I personally think this is a fine episode, worth pulling out for standalone rewatch but not nearly as often as many others. Some are exceptionally high on it for the deep psychological drilling and superb performances, I appreciate those things but don’t feel a need to revisit it too frequently.
When Sebastian said that he was from 1888, it should have clicked for everyone who knows that year...
Yes, Charles Turner became the first bowler to take 250 wickets in an English season. This is someone even a baseball fall like Sheridan would know.
Once again, Jeff asks much profound question: "Which One is The One?" Not The One. No. No. Not The One.
Not the One what?
Not The One! Won't talk. Can't talk. Not The One!
@@KevynJacobs Zathras promised. Zathras won't let down the One. Zathras will keep Zathras' word. The One can trust Zathras.
Jeff, The problem being solved is not your (our?) problem?? Perhaps it’s because the story you’re telling yourself is not the story! I really don’t get it when people get themselves wound up over mere conjecture or leaping to unwarranted conclusions.
That said, keep up the good work! If I care enough to leave a comment, it’s just out of love 😂
Love all the comments!
At this point, though, knowing what we know, this is where I landed. I did everything I could to come at this one with some positivity. That also shows the power of conversation.
Don't forget Vir works for not just the very Government of the Empire that just slaughtered his people but he also works Directly for Londo.
And Vir knows that Londo is the one who made the infernal alliance with the Shadows. G'Kar doesn't.
@@Nikioko Correct but G'Kar was already angry with Londo well before this because while G'Kar reached out a hand of friend ship Londo's forces struck the Narn starting the war and right then he accused Londo of knowing that was going to happen. And you can not tell me that over the course of the war Londo's name did not come up as one of the architects of the war's start.
@@violencesolveseverything2444 Londo always got assurance from Morden that the Shadow attacks cannot be tracked back to him. So yes, Londo as a Centauri nationalist may be identified as one of the supporters (but not tha driving force) of the war, but there is no obvious evidence that he is behind the pact with the Shadows. In fact, so far the Shadows operated secretly. People might have wondered why the Centauri got the upper hand so easily, but there was no hint that they got help from some friends, as there was no surviving witness who could report.
I don't think the two of you need hindsight to see this episode correctly. I think you got it just right - triangulating somewhere among both of your disparate opinions. I don't love the episode but appreciate aspects of it on rewatches. G'Kar's elevator scene is a great moment. I like that the episode provides that complementary world view to the Shadows. There is a reason for having this episode preceding the season 2 finale - at one point of the finale it is good to know that a character has greater importance because he/she is the right person in the right place at the right time. I know Brent has watched the finale and can guess what this references. I suspect Jeff has watched as well as my understanding is that you are both two episodes ahead of the RUclips releases.
This video is a turning point for Brent and Jeff's view of season 2 as the agglomeration of good episodes has led to a review without a mention that season 2 sucks and underperforms season 1.
I love how Jeff refers to a 200-300 year old recipe as ancient. These New Worlders are so sweet, in the same way a child thinks that waiting a month is a lifetime. 😉
Yes, I'm currently re-reading some HP Lovecraft, and always chuckle how he describes a building from the 17th century as "unspeakably ancient".
There is a reason for the saying "Americans think 200years is a long time, and Europeans think 200 miles is a long distance".
It isn't the recipe that he says is old, it is the sourdough starter. Someone has kept that fermented culture alive for centuries, which is the impressive part.
Sure, it is likely that there are older cultures around but this shows a level of effort and dedication from a line of bakers.
It's not the recipe that's ancient. People have been making bread for thousands of years. It's the fact that the particular line of yeast has been kept going for longer than several bakers' lifetimes.
Finally they get to my favorite episode of season 2.
This episode was also the end of a redemption arc. Not Londo's, but Sebastian's. And it told us a lot about the Vorlons without having a Vorlon in it, but one of their agents. But, important question: Who are you?
@@TheDanEdwards Yes, I meant the interrogation. Kosh just told Delenn that the inquisitor was coming to test her.
Is it Sebastian's redemption, though? Or just punishment?
For redemption, I'd expect Sebastian would have had to work to realize his mistakes and somehow make up for them in a symbolic way. But the way he describes it, the Vorlons "made him understand the gravity of his mistake" right upfront, when they picked him up. And the work he did afterward was hardly making up for serial murder. If anything, Sebastian killed more people as the inquisitor than he did ever as Jack the Ripper - innocent people at that, whose only mistake was to believe they were chosen.
@@MrMartechi it's never stated implicitly that he killed anyone during his inquisition, only that death was a possibility; and the subject could remove the manacles at any time, but doing so would be admitting to failure. Him stating that Delenn and Sheridan were the first ones to pass doesn't mean the rest were killed, only that the others weren't up to the challenge...
@@lordpuki1375 That's a valid read, but I'd question the likelihood. Sebastian has been at this for 400 years (granted, with some gaps). But if he's interrogating people who believe themselves to be chosen, I would expect in all this time, a fair number did push themselves to death rather than walking away. Assuming that all those who falsely believed themselves to be "the chosen one" to sober up and walk away seems like more of a stretch to me.
@@MrMartechi Definitely a valid point, but the issue is: was it really Sebastián who killed them, or their own hubris? And unlike his previous victims whose only crime was what he deemed to be immorality; any/all victims as inquisitor were tasked to him by the Vorlons and as such would hardly qualify as innocent in the strictest sense...
As stated, they could just walk away at any time, but if they were so convinced that they were in the right that their Grand Destiny would not allow them to die until that Purpose had been fulfilled; then does that really count as murder or just negligent homicide?
B5 is just as much politics and philosophy as it is action. If you don't appreciate those aspects then you may not really enjoy the rest of the series tbh. This episode is 5/5. The placement is kinda perfect.
I love this show, but if anything their analysis shows me that this show would probably be a bigger hit with fans of politics than sci-fi. This episode is basically one of the climaxes of Delenn's character growth, and it's crazy important and beloved to fans of the series.
@@AuspexAO Agreed.
So many of the issues are addressed in later episodes and seasons, this is an episode massively increased in importance on re-watch.
I wish I could explain "that is why it happened this way" but it would be massive spoilers...
I suggest at the end of Season 5, you re-watch a few key episodes, this being one and see it in the greater context of JMS vision and you can discuss it fully without worrying about spoilers
In my opinion this is one of the most important episodes of the entire series and an episode I absolutely love, on a par for me with "Pale Moonlight"
Jeff, are you wrong or right about your predictions/theories? Yes. Which theories? Yes. -- This comment was approved by Kosh, and is all I will say for now.
And so it begins...
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the podcasters to vote.
It's interesting that one of the guys predicted the plot for *this* episode as the plot for The Long Twilight Struggle.
I really like Jeff's comparisons of the two models (be, do, have vs have, do, be). I think that on some level, you need both. Having the tools WILL help you expedite completion of tasks, HOWEVER, without the knowledge, practice, or skill, it's basically worthless. The flip side is if you have the knowledge, practice and skill, but not the means to effect results; that too is worthless. Henceforth, a mix is required. How much of each is the real question.
the problem is Jeff thinks that Sebastian is here to "do a job", and it ends with making a choice...but that choice is death. There is no "Oh shucks, you failed" if she doesn't take the bracelets off. He kills her if she doesn't answer the questions correctly. There is never any point where she can start listing all the things she's done correctly, as he said, without Sebastian shutting her down because the answers don't fit. He's not going to go "Well I'm impressed, ya got me!" Instead, he shouts "Wrong!" He complains about Linner going to Sheridan and saying that Sebastian is killing her...well, yeah! He was! So that Sheridan would go to the Grey and become a target for Sebastian. Then his work could truly be over.
I don't get that Duet would need multiple views. There isn't really anything complicated in that. Not to say that it isn't good or rewatchable (I've never ranked DS9 episodes but would be surprised if it didn't make a Top 10), just that the idea of a survivors guilt works in stand-alone. It's never referenced again, which is a frustration I have with DS9 on rewatches - so many things that could be made in to small ongoing threads, but none of the later sympathetic Cardassians make even a vague mention of it.
As for this episode, I'm kind of middling with it. I love the idea of it, I love what it re-establishes (it's really not answering a question), but I don't know if I ever felt that Delenn was really at risk of dying (although I feel you are meant to), and that spoils the tension for me. I also am not sure if the Vorlons are testing Delenn because of how much her own confidence has been shaken this season by her transformation (and put her through an ordeal to help her), or if they are doubting her with how weak she has become (and were willing to let her die so the right person could come forward). It's more interesting than good to me. The choice of Jack The Ripper though makes sense because it says something frankly terrifying about the Vorlon mindset. It goes straight back to Deathwalker, they don't do half measures, they tend towards extreme brutality when solving things. This episode reminds me of that. Even their treatment of Sebastian is vicious. He is trapped and made to continue being the monster he now knows he was mistaken in being. It's not redemption, it's his own torture.
You don't say inquisitor and expect a misogynistic psychopath who will literally be torturing you from an ally. He IS trying to kill her because that is why he was chosen. Was it Jeffrey Dahmer running Jeff's course? I'm guessing not, which is why it's a false equivalency. I'm also surprised that Jeff and Brent have missed just how low Delenn has been brought by her treatment by both Minbari and Humans this season. She has not been in a good place. It's where I wish the show had maybe done a little bit about how that factored in to the Vorlon choice to brutalise her. I don't buy that it was a 'teaching', because they used someone who could and would kill her if she didn't meet the standard.
There are other things that feed in to the question of the The One/the chosen one, but those are small details I'll leave for you to find on the rewatch.
I think B5 may have been one of the first shows to realise that you can get good cheap actors from a theatrical background from the UK, even before The Wire found Idris Elba. Wayne Alexander however was from California which is impressive because I can often catch questionable British accents, and his is very, very good. I loved how sinister his performance was with how minimally he did things, and I saw someone do a Jack the Ripper cosplay that was heavily inspired by this. As for Buffy, if Jeff fancies rewatching it I would advise doing so on a small screen - I'm watching it again at the moment and if I took a drink every time I spotted Buffy's stunt double, there are episodes that could kill me. It was maybe always there, but it is far, far worse on a big screen. Spike and Drusilla's accents are very rough to listen to, at least until later series where James Marsters apparently got to spend more time with Anthony Head his season 6 accent is much better than season 2.
The Vorlon's feel more quasi-Buddhist to me. There might be a Be-Do, but I don't feel like they have a Have. I don't think the analysis of the Vorlons by that lens works as well as the inverse does for the Shadows. Not that I think it was bad analysis, quite the opposite, but I feel like other lenses may work better.
Preparing for the inquisitor is difficult, beacuse all he is there for is to strip all that away.
IIRC all those biblical references are there because one of the most plausible theory about the person behind Jack the Ripper was a reverend. I really find interesting the use of the character of Jack the Ripper in order to present Sebastian's own penitence: being an anonymous person would require of more background exposition on the late reveal in order to explain who Sebastian is and why the Vorlons chose him. By presenting a known despicable character all that background is already in the viewers knowledge so there's less to expose. For me this is a great episothe. The more you talk about it the greater it becomes.
Yes, that's JMS'S theory about the ID- no way of knowing now (unless Scotland Yard unseals the interviews they had with that gentleman)