Knee Extension & Saddle Height | Rules, Nuances, and the Ankle's Role
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- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2024
- Bike Fit Measurement Web App: www.obstri.com...
Comments and Questions: I love constructive, thought-provoking comments and questions. Anyone with helpful information is welcome to share it. But I want to make clear a few things - the discourse here should be civil. Anyone name-calling, denigrating, trolling or picking fights will be summarily banned. Don’t like it? Tough.
Second, just like any good scientist I try to present ideas in as open a context as possible - I try to avoid using the words always or never since as we know in clinical work and research, they rarely apply. Scientific and clinical practice teaches us that there are gray areas, and so everyone should feel comfortable expressing their opinion.
However, anyone expressing more than just their opinion/experience OR giving advice as an expert should be prepared to share their full name and credentials. Yes, we'd like to know who you are and what training/education you have to back up these strong beliefs. If you have a Master's Degree or PhD in kinesiology, physiology, physical therapy, or whatever may be applicable to the argument at hand. We'd like to know that. If you're just some guy who once read a couple research articles but you trade commodities as a profession, then we'd like to know that too. As I'm able, I will step in and ask for name and credentials in these situations....
The long and short of it? I'd like to keep things more civil and I'd like people to have a better idea of who is giving out information. Thanks everyone!
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Neat graphic tool. Yes, the ankle is important and is often forgotten.
For what it's worth, I have found that as one raises the seat, a rider (like myself) will often unconsciously raise one's heel height. And conversely as one lowers the seat, a rider seems to automatically lower the heel to be almost be parallel to the ground.
As I approach 66 years old, I find that if my seat is too high, my lower back will bother me during the ride or later in the evening. And also recently, the back of my knee may bark at me. If my seat is too low, my back may be fine, but the front of my knees may bother me when I get off the bike, particularly when going up or down stairs.
Sometimes I often quick check my seat height my sitting on the saddle and putting my heels on the pedals and spin backwards to see if my pelvis is rocking from side to side. If it is, I need to lower the seat if I want to avoid back pain.
I also have to adjust my seat by a few millimeters up or down according to the season and how much clothes I may be wearing. For example, two or three pairs of tights versus only a single pair of riding shorts with a thin chamois. I will also mark the differing seasonal seat heights with a marker if the post is silver, or I may even use a hack saw if the post is black, just enough to break through the black coating so that I can see a seat height mark.
The one thing that is tougher is if I buy a seat that is softer than my last one. Accounting for how much I might sink into the seat while riding is a bit tougher to estimate and its influence on the correct height.----My back will complain with only being off by a few millimeters too high. So I find I am using that as a sign that my seat needs to go down, if I set it too high in an effort to accommodate a softer seat.
And then one has the fore and aft position and the seat tilt. --- Don't get me started.
I sometimes wish there was a computerized seat post with a computerized seat bolting system that would automatically put you into the right position and right height after riding only just a few miles.---Getting the right seat height and position for me is the number one thing that discourages me from buying a new bike. Just the thought of trying to figure all this out again leaves me exhausted before I even look at a new bike. On my old bikes...I have it pretty much all figured out.....I think....until I get even older I guess.
Keep going as far as you possibly can! At 66 it sounds like you're doing well, avan if you seem to spend quite a bit of time having to calculate.
Happy wheeling.
Greetings from France.
This is a really great video brother I just went through a $300 fit and I'm struggling with the fitter to justify my desire to be close to a 150 degree angle. I'm at a 146 now. The fitters deal with the general public so their tendency is to recreationally fit and weekend warrior people but as a rider it's important to stay inline with what I'm doing. They're not terribly invested beyond the money for the fit and this is a great reminder.
They ARE terribly INVESTED in your money! For sure !
I'm 49 and I've always had my saddle quite high and after getting back into cycling I did a 60 mile sportive the other day and had pain in back of knee and calfs, I lowered my saddle by 5mm and also brought it forward 5mm, felt ok but then I found this app and it told me to bring my saddle down a further 24mm, so I did and also moved it back 5mm again, Feels alot more natural now. Just need to go for a decent ride to try it. Started off with a 150 degree knee angle and 35 degree ankle at bottom of stroke, now its 143 degree knee and 23 degree ankle. Alot more comfortable.
Which app? The link doesn't work anymore.
Watched all your videos. Injured an ankle several years ago. Very experienced rider 60y/o. Inspired by your videos I chipped away mm by mm on fit. Different bike, 40 years later copied old fit. Not good. Summary as lifelong heel driver raised saddle from baseline, moved saddle back with setback post. Obsessed over tilt and bar position. Lucked out with saddle found as a pig on a poke! Results! Pain free. Riding fixed track bike on road faster than geared 10 years ago. No pain! Who would have expected this!
You're something of a miracle my friend!
@@musamor75 Good training for geared bike. It feels like cheating!
The ankle angle will change with pedaling load, and fatigue. At the end of a long ride could be completely different than what is measured on a trainer after a few minutes warm up, especially if it's a lot of toe-down.
Yes, obviously. Riding is not a static activity. I've heard that it's advised to rotate your angle, to keep it supple, distribute force, and avoid stiffness.
Just for what it's worth.
Verrrrry informative video. Plenty of food for thought. You've made a really great job of this. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. There are so many videos out there, but I honestly think I've landed on the right spot. I'm 64, and I've already learned a lot.
Greetings from France. (I've already commented another one of your videos. Great work and research).
Your insight about knee and ankle interplay was amazing. Thank you for this.
Thank you so much for the great contents that you share here on RUclips :) It helps us cyclists and bikers to understand what’s happening with the body relative to the fitment of the bike.
This is such a great chanel, very very interesting and well put together. Definitely give the software a try. Thank you very much for your time and effort on these videos. Cheers Mike.
Dialing in seat height and fore-aft position for that Goldilocks spot is like trying to solve a Rubiks cube. After months of adjustments and testing I finally got my saddle right on my XC Mtn bike. The bike shop setup a "loose" ballpark fit which was fine for shorter rides, but for long climbs and longer distances, this was not good enough. I used to multiple methods to get there.. the 109% to get in the ballpark on height and then moving the saddle forward to get the knee closer to the end of the of the crank arm. And then there is saddle tilt which is different for every make. starting at 0 degrees and micro adjusting, for me the nose down. Having an expert getting there would have been much easier and even ensure cleats and shoes are properly setup. having found success with the Mtn bike, I thought these methods would work also for the road bike. I can't say that the fit crosses over all that well, as the saddle seems a bit low, especially noticeable on climbing. My point being that knee angle seems especially important for road fits and every bike has its own fit. But I have also learned that the saddle shape is important with relation to where saddle height and bar height fall. This channel has really helped me learn more about bike fits. Thanks for all the tips and great content here!
Nice job. A complex topic made more understandable.
Where can I give a double thumbs up? Brilliant
In short, this video shows that when you support your foot on the pedal and raise you ankle they knee bends. When you lower your ankle (or heel) your Knee is more straighten. Magic, magic.
Obs fit should be a fcpx plug-in or other (nle) video software plug in. it would require a lot of different knee and shoe wraps that look like those markers on crash test dummy’s. Then you could run a program to spit out angles with no manual inputs by having a marker placed. Get a cgi guy and a coder in a room and it would probably happen quick. You could then increase your sample rate and record riders going through different modes of riding and get a real amazing amount of data without having a pro level budget. The Everyman could buy the spandex markers for $30 and then do it at home. If software was under 150 for the setup I bet the kind of guys who have trainers in the house would buy it.
You could also make it a portal for bike fitters to work to help more riders remotely on video calls. Just throwing a thought out there. If you: Automate it and build a community, you change cycling.
As much sense as you make and how logical it sounds all your data can be completely skewed by misplaced lines that you snap from joint to joint (which you did with x-ray vision I guess? because I didn't see you palpate to find the actual joint?) Not saying that they are, I would have no way to know by looking at a video though it's not hard to conceive that a 5 degree error compounded by 3 could easily be made without accurate reference points.
Very interesting nonetheless and will make me reconsider my own set-up! Thanks
11:20 I find the opposite, for aging knees more extension (less angle) helps as the up stroke doesn't put as much pressure on the knees , ie more optimal leverage. With higher seat post then it puts more body lean, so bars have to come up too.
I've noticed how new pair of bib shorts change the knee angle, fresh new padding is thicker then old used one and sometimes it demands millimeters adjustment to the saddle height
One great enhancement to the tool would be an undo/redo feature. It's a fabulous tool
Great video absent of superfluous information.
small feet vs large feet has a huge effect on knee flexion as well
The question remains what angles of knee & ankle would you consider optimized for let’s say race and touring positions.
Jan Willem Kuilenburg working on a full answer, but it's a little more involved so it's taking me a bit (in between trying to do my regular work ;-))
Jan Willem Kuilenburg Here you go: bikefitadviser.com/knee-extension-and-saddle-height/ (scroll down)
I decided to put it in the article because it was pretty lengthy and I thought it might be easier for people to find answers to the all the most common questions. Might try this out for the bigger topics...
Bike Fit Adviser Thanks a lot!
👍
I would think that my ankle wouldn't bare the flex when on the maximum of the power I could ad to the pedal.
Therefore my question would be that would the measurement be more accurate or more useful when it's been taken during the FTP measurement, so that the flex of my ankle and my knee would be comfortable during close to high stress situations.
These forces would probably change the angles on both the knee and the ankle, maybe it's even more useful to check the angles during full power sprints.
Great video, thank you so much for sharing that link. It's great
great video. much apreciation for bike fit app developer also
A+ on your logo. Brilliant.
Hello there! You're channel is incredibly insightful and I use it pretty much as my guide book whenever I have an issue. I'm currently cycling from China back to the UK and recently changed my saddle fore/aft by about 5mm. Moving the saddle forward. This has given me alot more comfort in both shoulders and saddle comfort however it seems to have caused some heel drop that has caused discomfort. Is there anyway I can do the non static bike check video without using a trainer? I'm currently on the road and dont have access to a trainer. I'm assuming doing the video with the chain off would have a different affect on pedal style? Any help would be greatly appreciated, keep doing what you doing and I dream of coming to you one day with all of your tech and you showing me just how far from perfect my cycling position is! hahaha
Just stumbled across this channel and really enjoying it. I thought it was really interesting how much the tensioner was moving in the opening bike shot. Indicates variable pedal power or inconsistent movement?
I own multiple bikes. My problem is the transition between the two. One bike causes less pain than the other. I made the mistake of removing old cleats without marking them. Now I just can't seem to find a happy medium between the two. I had considered getting a separate pair of shoes just for my B bike. I tried setting up both bikes the same. But unfortunately for my knees, they just don't like my B bike position. I've tried different adjustments one at a time to try and find a sweet spot to no avail. I am a bike mechanic. But setting up my own bike is one of the hardest jobs I've encountered. I almost positive my issues are from the cleat position. But I'm still at a loss to find a position that works for both bikes.
John, if my bike causes no pain anywhere even on quite long rides, and I can sustain a reasonable power output, and seem to be improving (even though I'm well into middle age), is it safe to assume the fit is good? When I see my own shadow it looks reasonable enough. But I watch a lot of your videos and they are having the odd effect of making me paranoid. What if my fit is wrong? Easy solution is to go get a bike fit. But then if nothing SEEMS to be problematic, why? Duo you have any thoughts on this?
If you are only improving and experience no pain whatsoever, do not change it. However, if you ride a lot and for many years, it may be good to have the fit checked as you age. The body starts to compensate more as you age.
@@ShadowzKiller In the end I went to get a bike fit not too long after i wrote that. It turned out I could accommodate a more aggressive position without a problem.
@@stuartdryer1352 That's great to hear. I had a bike fit, but it wasn't good and so I am still soul searching for my own fit.
Great! Finally a good free software! For those who dont have a trainer, does it work to pedal backwards?
no, your pedalling movement will be completely different.
Edmo das Virgens As already noted, your mechanics will be very different when you pedal backwards
Bike Fit Adviser Or can we possibly remove the chain for that purpose to pedal forwards? Do we need the counter-force of the rear wheel to pedal correctly?
It's a long time since you've uploaded any videos😢. They helped and still help me a lot in adjusting the fit of my bikes and understanding the logic behind a bike fit.
Mind blown! I love your content. I wish you were in L.A! Do you recommend any fitters in Los Angeles?
I'm to receive a new saddle today, it will be cool to try this software when sitting it up.
Hello, I had a knee replacement surgery and I cannot bend one knee enough to put the from part of the foot on the pedal, I have to use the heel. I thought getting a tall bike and lifting the seat will help but I still cannot. Now I'm thinking on moving the seat as far back as possible the height of the bike might not matter as much as that. What would you recommend?
Great great video...brilliant gonna check my set up...love the free software..
Comes across as an excellent tool, thanks for sharing! What method are you using to get the bike in the video properly set up, without perspective/parallax?
I would like to ask if for the Two Examples on the video were to adjust the fore & aft of the saddle and tilting the handlebar as the saddle moves, would these also help with the Ankle and Leg Extension?
Curious but I know a small increment will reflect on possibly the bike’s handling or the comfort, angle of the foot relative to the ankle, leg extensions etc.
Very informative!!
Excellent video.
What about the top of stroke angle? Do you have a suggested range? Also, if one drops the ankle and just maintains knee extension angle at bottom stroke by lifting the seat, that will open up the top of stroke angle, correct? Some commentary on top of stroke would be greatly appreciated.
great job mate!!
great content, will try it out soon.
That OBS tool looks cool. But there should be some kind of calibration object of known length and angles afixable in plane to the frame to deal with any off-square camera angle as well as auto adjust numerical measurements taken.
You can use the 10th icon on top the show the reference length. You can then double click on it to set your scale. You also have the ability on the bottom left to adjust the image/video by adjusting its position, scale & rotation. Hope it helps.
Ok. Cool. But, I think I am confused. Where is the "reference" length object in the actual camera view? I think in order for this all to work, there needs to be an object of known shape in the scenes being filmed that can then be used to back-out the true/actual scale of the pixels. I mean, I guess you could tell the software what the length of the top-tube is, or seat stays or something and then draw a reference line over them (like I kinda sorta discuss here, markscycleosophy.blogspot.com/2014/06/measuring-bike-fit-using-digital-camera.html).
Usually I take the distance between the 2 wheel centers as you can easily find that information from the bike manufacturer (assuming you know the size of the bike). For instance I know it's 101cm for my bike, so I click on the reference tool, move one end to the center of the rear wheel, move the other end to center of the front wheel, double click on it and enter 101. After any line will show its real world distance compared to the reference length. It looks like this: ibb.co/hKpn9H
And what is the optimal angle range for the foot?
Good video as always, keep it up!.
that rear derailleur wiggle is funny
Best video so far, keep it up
Thanks awesome tool!
I love this video and I took a photo of myself. Made the calculation using the app and I found these as the result : my knee angle from full extension is 31.2 degrees. My foot angle from horizontal is 35.1 degrees. Is that good?
COOL IDEA!
The link doesn't work (anymore).
Thanks for the tool. amazing
Thanks for sharing this, can't wait to try it out.
I dont get it. What's the point and importance of knee flexion angle? And what is the ideal range?
you need a higher shutter speed on your cam ;)
Could a higher patella in one of the knees be affecting extension, when everything else on the bike is balanced?
But why does knee bend angle matter? Is there some advantage to minimizing it?
Fantastic tool. Love from Bangladesh.
Can't a standing hip hinge movement with forward reaching arms determine the angles naturally?
That's a good thought -- it might help you learn a bit more about torso angle, handlebar reach and height etc, but it probably won't help you learn much about your ankle angle and effective knee extension etc. Only assessing it dynamically will help you find the right balance with the ankle and the knee since static views and measures don't paint the full picture. Thanks for watching!
is this tool still available? I can't seem to find it
Thanks!, good vid.
What are you thoughts around a quite extreme heal up / toe down style throughout the whole pedal stroke (assuming a comfortable knee flexion angle)? Would you try to correct it or be satisfied it is part of their natural style?
rikkiola great question, this is something that really gets to some of the more challenging aspects of a bike fit -- namely are there times when you should actively AVOID correcting something?
It would depend on a few things...I'd first change any other aspects of the bike fit that might be problematic and see if the ankle position alters any.
It can be counter-productive, and occasionally dangerous to cue someone to modify their ankle posture so, although I know a few bike fitters may try to alter the rider's mechanics this way I wouldn't recommend it -- I think either the rider's bike fit should "coax" them into the preferred ankle position or off the bike exercises should be implemented to help the rider attain their most stable ankle position.
That last sentence was very purposefully written -- individuals might still be most efficient with more extreme postures of the ankle, and whenever reasonable, we should account for this. Often there's no black and white answers since we need to just look at the big picture of the rider and consider these smaller details
That's awesome, thanks for the detailed reply. This is pretty much as I guessed, I did get her to change to a more conventional foot/ankle position and videod it on the trainer, it does look much 'better' and I have been encouraging her to focus on this. However, at the back of my mind I've been wondering if it's better to leave her be (assuming all other aspects of the fit are ok). I think your answer suggests that maybe I leave her be (although she did start generating more watts when she allowed her ankle to drop from the 12 to 3 o'clock position). Thanks again
Just to add, one thing I did notice using the tool here and doing a side to side comparison of her natural style vs trying to relax the foot/ankle in to a more conventional position, is that her knee and upper leg actually come up a lot higher in her natural position, therefore reducing the hip flexion angle and increasing the extension of the glutes as she comes up over the top with each leg. I wondered if this alone may be a reason to try to get her to change a little.
Has this website gone offline?
I notice I toe down on my left but my right foot is level. I can only assume my left side/leg is not as loose as my right. No limp in my walk. I am just gonna go with it and enjoy the ride....
could also be a chance that your left leg is shorter than the right. I have a short left femur from growth plate injury and do the exact same thing as you're mentioning. I just need to set the saddle so my left foot pedals level. My calve was constantly getting strained from toeing down so thats why I did it. If you're comfortable while riding id probably just leave it where you have it.
Good vid, going to have to video myself on the turbo and have a play with this software. Do you have any videos on toe in/toe out? I seem to be most comfortable with my toes out to the limit of adjustment on my spd-sl pedals (I'm very close to rubbing my ankles on the cranks). Is this just an individual thing or a sign that I might need to change something about my setup?
Alex Dean **Boilerplate disclaimer: Can't know for sure without seeing you....** but often this IS the result of individual differences in foot and ankle mechanics, but can sometimes be a sign that q-factor (stance width of the bike) needs to change (often, but not always, wider) or perhaps more support is needed in the insole at the primary longitudinal arch and metatarsal arch. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the response. I have thought previously that my shoes don't have the best support, may look into getting some insoles like I have in my ski boots.
I love this but is it not the case that at the bottom of the stroke our ankles can make up for what we want to do with our knee angles. However at the top of the stroke (where we can hurt our hips and knees) there is little to nothing we can do to make up for a saddle that is too low... I have to have a saddle height that it far too high to enjoy riding on the flat (but great when climbing), just so that my legs arent coming up too high at the top, as that gives me terrible back pain after 2 hours
Maybe your cranks are too long?
so what do you do if you raise someones seat and they just go more toe down instead of extending the knee? I have about a 136 on a road bike under load. I have to raise my saddle from about 31 inches to 32.5 and a half before the knee starts increasing angle, i just end up more toe down (I have a size 15 shoe which allows this long range). I'm 6 feet tall and by doing the level in the crotch test my inseam is ~34.5 inches. moving the cleat doesn't seem to change this in any meaningful way. I do notice that my heel comes up under heavy loads, decreasing my knee angle
With a size 15 shoe you should first buy a seat with a larger cutout ,otherwise your seat height will vary depending on which part of the anatomy is Destin on the seat.
Resting
I have a quick question as far my seat I think I pretty much mastered it my hight is 5 9" tall 32 length.Now relax position and agressive position is fine.when I'm at really low aggressive positions that's when I get neck pain I do have Degenerative neck issues I'm really flexibility guy my legs because I do martial arts . I had to take the spacers out spacers out because relax position bothered my neck.it was tilted to much upright. Even though I have neck issues is there ways I can get comfortable in aero position with out bothering my neck .my stem legnth is 110.
Awesome tool, just had a play with video of other half, trying to get her set, she pedals with heel up/toe down a bit. What's an excessive (or normal) range for ankle flexion?
rikkiola it changes quite a bit through the pedal stroke, but three important points are top of the stroke (ankle ~20°-40°), 3 O'CLOCK (5°-15°), and bottom of the stroke (10°-25°) -- Keep in mind, these are rough averages for a road bike position and are likely to change at very heavy efforts and on different types of bikes -- tri/TT and mtn
That's awesome thanks, I actually used the tool to do a side to side comparison of these exact positions and angles funnily enough. That's really useful, thanks
website doesn't work anymore
can you leave the link again, previous for the app, does not work
Moral of the story: do soft tissue work, and strength training, and sleep well, and eat well, and drink lots of water, and go to the chiropractor and..., etc., etc., etc.
Good God!, DONT go a chiroQUACKTOR.
Chiropractic "medicine" is pure bullshit.
Google: Vertebral artery dissection after a chiropractor neck manipulation
Allen Haha,snake oil remedy,chiroquactor
Thx
Interesting 🙂👍🏻
Does anyone have something new to say about this theme?
I guess that site no longer exists?
Hi there, App doesn't seem to work with my laptop?
is there a way to download this software sir? ☺
How about spinning pedals in reverse? I mean, in order to transfer power? There was one such a device on the market (can be simply integrated instead of standard BB)... I think it's worth to consider, since very different grups of muscles are working - perhaps more efficient?
Hi, tried following the link, and looking for the app in Google's app store, but wound up with dead ends, the web page loaded for me, bt only appears as a static picture...any advice? Maybe it's me?
It's a website not an app. Click on the first icon (top left) to open a video or an image.
Link not available
1:47 I don't know why every bike fit video I've seen does this: it shows angles > 90° (both of 'em!) and yet claims those angles are 25 - 35°. The latter range is obtained by the projection of the vertical line and taking the angle between that and the other line. Check out 2:47; it is 152.1°! At least this is correct.
Oval Chainring?
NONE of this meauring makes any difference UNLESS the rider is measured on watts/kilo output.
One can see a wide range of variance amoungst pro riders. They have had extensive evaluation of how many watts/kilo they put out over a pre-detemined distance.
It's ALL about V02max and Watts/Kilo.
Look at the "bizzare" saddle height Chris Froome maintains. That has been evaluated so many times by his team with regards to watts/kilo. And many riders, ride with toe down or flat or?.
All this measuring is just that.
For the average person, comfort and perceived output is the best indicator of EXACT proper position-for THAT RIDER.
All this stuff is silly.
Check out Adam Hansen's foot angle at 17:32 of the video. Quite a large angle at the 6 o'clock position of his right foot.
ruclips.net/video/zuR1XPA6pw0/видео.html
Yeah i can't really take this video seriously when you can look at pros and see way lower angles than recommended here.
This is all impractical nonsense for people who wish to use a bicycle not for climbing mountains, not for racing, not for sport but for transportation in a city or town. In most American cities or towns, the automobile is king and on a bicycle one assumes great risk competing with drivers. If such risk is acceptable to you, then you would want a bicycle that is comfortable and as safe as possible. I would choose the sort of bike ridden in Amsterdam, Holland, where it is the common choice for city dwellers. It gives the rider an upright posture, rather than the unendurable forward lean with upper body weight on one's handlebars. Bicycles are no longer made in the USA, and they are ridiculously expensive. They are sold in boutiques, not in bicycle stores or online, where they cannot be examined before purchase. In a bicycle boutique, be prepared for prices above $450 with few accessories. A helmet in such a fancy store is $100., for a plastic and foam chapeau. The USA is now a crazy place to live!
Theoretical bs. Just rely on what you feel!