Did you find this video helpful? What other examples can you think of where diminishing returns would have a significant effect? EDIT: Haven is getting nerfed in the Absolution Update, to max out at 16.5% damage reduction. Despite this, haven is still the better purchase on Yagorath. Haven will give her roughly 10,860 EHP, while Veteran still only gives her 10,338 EHP. Join my Discord server: discord.gg/fnjV3nV Follow me on Twitch: www.twitch.tv/andrewchicken
YES!!! Extremely helpfull bro!! Thanks so much for this! Some topics are impossible to find in youtube, and u just brought this to us! I always wanted to know about DR and never founded! THX!
I did but it hurts my head trying to visualize everything, lots of percentages and numbers flying at you quickly. Ive had a bit much to drink however lol. if you could maybe make some videos highlighting some key match ups or golden area between card level and item level. I wanted to thank you for all your hard work btw :) you've make getting into this game a much less intimidating process. it can be alot to grasp all at once
I saw it when i wanted to play talus 105% livesteal (25% Primeval might + 50% perseverance + 30% life rip), But it was like 66%. Btw. Thx for video and explanation it!
I knew about diminishing returns and the calculator but I didn't know that it applied to things besides life rip, healing reduction and damage reduction. Thanks Andrew
9:05 in addition to haven giving you more effective HP, supports can more effectively heal you when you have lower actual HP. If you’re at half health, it’ll take longer to heal you to full with more HP while taking more damage
This is kinda irrelevant but u can reload cancel with koga by dashing or wallclimbing or switcing to dragon stance about half way through the reload animation :)
Holy shit. Here I am like an idiot with full 20% DR on sixth sense and persistence and still buying haven. Bro thank god you're alive and playing paladins.
That's different, actually! Pip can also get 80% life steal against enemies hit with his slow. It's the way the card is worded, and the fact that it's given based on an ability, not directly as a card (such as Ash)
So Buck's lifesteal card "Bully" is a bit broken. For some reason, it doesn't apply diminishing returns with the life rip item, meaning you can get 90% lifesteal against an enemy affected by net shot. Chris brings up a good point that maybe this lack of diminishing returns is because it's based off a single ability which applies a debuff to an enemy (slow). This 90% seemingly becomes 99% because of the Rapid Sustain card, which gives you extra healing when you're at low hp. However, the 9% extra isn't actually lifesteal. It's simply 10% extra healing from the card. 10% of 90% is 9%, and that 9% gets added on after. So it's not actually breaking the lifesteal cap, it's just granting bonus healing on a massive lifesteal value that's close to the lifesteal cap!
@@AndrewChicken I just want you to know, since we're right here in the same thread, you're my favorite eSports RUclipsr and literally the only reason I keep coming back to Paladins! I enjoy your commentary and your continuous humor, I think you could absolutely step into the world of other games or general game reviews. I say this because Paladins has a time limit, but you're a great entertainer and you'll definitely be able to branch out without issue. Not necessarily to other hero shooters, but even indie games of any genre or coop games, ect
There needs to be a different term, or at least an explicit distinction in explanation between the in-game mechanic that reduces effectiveness (as part of the game coding that doesn't make values stack additively) and the mathematical phenomenon of getting reduced effectiveness purely from additively stacking numbers, because it is actually the latter that is referred to with the term "diminishing returns". To elaborate diminishing returns: I deal 100 damage base and i receive an item that gives me a 50% damage bonus, which brings me to 150 damage. This is a 50% increase to total damage (50/100). I receive another item that gives me a 50% damage bonus (now 100% total), which brings me to 200 damage. This second item is a 33.33% bonus to total damage (50/150). I receive yet another item that gives me a 50% damage bonus (now 150% total), which brings me to 250 damage. This third item is a 25% bonus to total damage (50/200). Another 50% damage bonus (now 200% total) will bring me to 300 damage, which is a 20% bonus to total damage (50/250). In this case, diminishing returns means that any additive damage bonus beyond the first one impacts my total damage less than it's face value. However, the reverse is actually true for damage reduction if it was coded to stack additively: I take 100 damage at 0% DR. I get an item that gives me 10% DR, which prevents 10 damage. I take 90 damage, which equates to 10% damage reduction (10/100) I get another item that gives me 10% DR (now 20% total) which brings me up to 20 damage prevented. I am now taking 80 damage, and this second item is now actually an 11.11% damage reduction (10/90) If i get a third item that gives me 10% DR (now 30% total) which brings me up to 30 damage prevented, I now take 70 damage, and this third item is now a 12.5% damage reduction. In an extreme example where i have nine 10% DR items, the tenth item will have given me 100% damage reduction since i'm going from 10 damage taken to 0 damage taken. This is why damage resistance/armor/mitigation mechanics in games are never additive nor linearly scaling, and it is an intentional coding (developer-determined formula) that determines the final damage reduction, and this is separate from what we know as "diminishing returns".
Another important thing is that Rejuvenate doesn't counter Cauterize because Rej effect applies after Caut. Example: You get healed by 1000 HP, you have Rej 3 (+18%) and you're under Caut 3 (-80%) so you get only 236 HP instead of 620 HP.
It used to be like that. Now you get 380. 180 from Rejuvenate and 200 from base. It was changed in a patch back in 2018. The same should apply to speed buff and slows but it is harder to test.
Veteran and Haven play off each other. People say not to take both unless absolutely necessary, but like they work in tandem without diminishing returns
so its either stick to one full % card (except movement bc they stack bettter) and the item or two medium- small % cards (im using the terminus damage reduction so i gues buying heaven is almost useless unless i tweak my deck but i dont think i will)
I feel like veteran would be better buy than haven for inara if youre running DR while feild is up bc youll almost always have DR activated (feild amd guard) so haven wouldnt be as effective. Right ?
There's one character, as far as I know, who doesn't suffer from diminishing returns, which you could actually make into a video, Pip. As far as I know, stacking Acumen at level 5 and adding Life Rip 3 does not trigger diminishing returns, you still get the full 80% lifesteal. Not sure exactly why but it's very good getting like 400 somethin heals per shot
I have a question. I have the reload speed card with raum in a build. Also buying the reload speed item. At what level should i have the reload speed card? Closest to 20% like the video says? Or at 5 and just buy the reload item to a certain point? Like one or two
There are two ways to go about it. 1: set the card to level 3 (21%) and then buy deft hands 2 for getting as close to 60% as quickly as possible. 2: set the card to max level (35%) and then buy deft hands 1 for 5% under maximum reload speed for a more credit-effective build. However, when it comes to Raum, I just wouldn't run the reload speed card at all. Raum gets far more value from dr, sustain, health, and juggernaut cd reset in most cases.
@@AndrewChicken thank you so much andrew man. I love you, keep it up with the great content. Btw, when are we getting a new raum video? 😈😈😈 just kidding. Just thank you for the help and for taking the time to answer a comment from an old video. Forgive my english also, is not my first language 🙌🙌🙌
idk how it works with morale boost, i go with raums 60% ult charge lvl 3 morale boost and have an octavia in my team with commanders ultimate, i doubt now ill get the full effect but it still charges hecking fast
Wait.... so does DR apply with mal'damba and ash?? Like what is ash life steal is max and mal uses that one card that goes 40% LS if you stand in his gourd??
Not necessarily. The big brain move for mega survivability is to buy BOTH veteran and haven ;) But if you have to choose 'twixt the two, haven is always the best option. Veteran should also be weaker anyways, because it's cheaper. If you're short on credits, then veteran will still give you survivability without hurting your wallet as much.
I'm assuming this would function like the bonus damage to you vs opponents take more damage interaction, like a furia ult combined with a hunter's mark. Since you buff yourself and debuff your opponents they're two different effects and so would be unaffected by diminishing returns
Does this diminishing returns rule apply to cripples/stuns/slows too? I notice when i try to stun someone who's already stunned with a furia beam it feels shorter (like someone in a Genos grab). If it's the case how would this interact with Inara's treacherous ground talent for example?
If the stuns/cripples are applied at the same time (meaning the second stun comes at any point while the first stun is active), I believe the duration of each subsequent stun/cripple is diminished. However, it doesn't say anything about this on the wiki, and would require extensive testing that I haven't done. This is simply what my hypothesis is based off ingame experience and rumors which I've heard, and you should take this with a grain of salt. I may try and test this at some point, and there might already be videos or posts about that elsewhere that I am unaware of. For slows, yes, diminishing returns absolutely applies to the strength of the slow, not the duration. So, with Inara's warder's field, any slows on top of that will incur diminishing returns, unless that slow is a larger slow than her warder's field, in which case the slow from the warder's field will be diminished instead. Slows are effectively the inverse of a movement speed increase, and so they would be calculated with the movement speed equation and not the regular effect equation. The cripple on T. Ground is applied continuously. I am not sure how this affects cripples which are applied on top of it. For example, if Grover were to use crippling throw on someone who is in warder's field and then they step out of warder's field, I don't know if that cripple will have a diminished duration.
Do u think the game would be better if it's just straight-forward honest, like without Diminishing Returns? Like with 50% card and LifeRip 30% = 80% so everyone can see that number?
I'm still having trouble calculating Yaggo's DR while Hardening is active with End Of An Era card at 5 points. I don't fully understand the wording of the card. Is it Yaggo's base 35% DR doubled to 70% total?
Deft Hands 3 Already gives you the ideal dmg combo of shoot-reload-shoot-reload. More reload speed wouldn't help because you still have to shoot to be able to reload again. So going above that wouldn't matter.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Honestly just glad someone finally explained this, it seems like every Paladins RUclipsr is aware of what it is but never tell you about it.
theres alot of depth in paladins gameplay, very good that gives a gap between players who know them
I have 1000 hours on paladins and i didn't know such thing existed, thanks alot for explaining andrew :D
Did you find this video helpful? What other examples can you think of where diminishing returns would have a significant effect?
EDIT: Haven is getting nerfed in the Absolution Update, to max out at 16.5% damage reduction. Despite this, haven is still the better purchase on Yagorath. Haven will give her roughly 10,860 EHP, while Veteran still only gives her 10,338 EHP.
Join my Discord server: discord.gg/fnjV3nV
Follow me on Twitch: www.twitch.tv/andrewchicken
The sha lin in the inara example is a pro gamer
What about yags extra Dr card in harden would that not get any extra Dr with haven
YES!!! Extremely helpfull bro!! Thanks so much for this!
Some topics are impossible to find in youtube, and u just brought this to us! I always wanted to know about DR and never founded! THX!
but haven is 1800 total credit compare to 1200 total credit for veteran, so veteran definitely will be better on yag in next patch
I did but it hurts my head trying to visualize everything, lots of percentages and numbers flying at you quickly. Ive had a bit much to drink however lol. if you could maybe make some videos highlighting some key match ups or golden area between card level and item level. I wanted to thank you for all your hard work btw :) you've make getting into this game a much less intimidating process. it can be alot to grasp all at once
I saw it when i wanted to play talus 105% livesteal (25% Primeval might + 50% perseverance + 30% life rip), But it was like 66%.
Btw. Thx for video and explanation it!
bro i wish it could be real. That's would be hilarious 😂😂
@@taniamachin766 same ;)
I knew about diminishing returns and the calculator but I didn't know that it applied to things besides life rip, healing reduction and damage reduction. Thanks Andrew
9:05 in addition to haven giving you more effective HP, supports can more effectively heal you when you have lower actual HP. If you’re at half health, it’ll take longer to heal you to full with more HP while taking more damage
This is kinda irrelevant but u can reload cancel with koga by dashing or wallclimbing or switcing to dragon stance about half way through the reload animation :)
Also with Kinessa mines
Nope
@@T.K.F. eh ? Wdym nope ?
well basically some of champion has "animation reload cancel" which can be triggered by using ability after reload circle reach certain percentage
also with Zhin
Andrew: *explaining diminishing returns*
Me: *enjoying the gameplay*
I was lost when he started with the numbers, sorry :c
I didn't learn about a mechanic this important until a YEAR after I started playing. Seriously, there needs to be a DR calculator in game!
So basically buy veteran and haven with yag to live longer lol
Like raum 10k build
Bet Andrew went to The Official Paladins College of Deminishing Returns
im so glad i discovered this video. ive literally been playing for 4 yrs and never heard about diminishing returns.
you forgot to explain the diminishing returns on increased healing buffs from rejuvenate. but still, Gr8 video bro!
nvm, im dumb
I played 4 years.. 4! And never knew it, thank you youtube guy! I hupe this well crafted vedio will get recommended to more people!
I was waiting for a guide like this. I subscribed
Holy shit. Here I am like an idiot with full 20% DR on sixth sense and persistence and still buying haven. Bro thank god you're alive and playing paladins.
Also Yag's 25% resilience card does not stack with resilience3 to give 100% resilience (immune)
Andrew: If somehow you get more than 95% lifesteal it will be capped at 95%
Also Andrew:99% lifesteal on buck
That's different, actually!
Pip can also get 80% life steal against enemies hit with his slow. It's the way the card is worded, and the fact that it's given based on an ability, not directly as a card (such as Ash)
So Buck's lifesteal card "Bully" is a bit broken. For some reason, it doesn't apply diminishing returns with the life rip item, meaning you can get 90% lifesteal against an enemy affected by net shot. Chris brings up a good point that maybe this lack of diminishing returns is because it's based off a single ability which applies a debuff to an enemy (slow). This 90% seemingly becomes 99% because of the Rapid Sustain card, which gives you extra healing when you're at low hp. However, the 9% extra isn't actually lifesteal. It's simply 10% extra healing from the card. 10% of 90% is 9%, and that 9% gets added on after. So it's not actually breaking the lifesteal cap, it's just granting bonus healing on a massive lifesteal value that's close to the lifesteal cap!
@@AndrewChicken I just want you to know, since we're right here in the same thread, you're my favorite eSports RUclipsr and literally the only reason I keep coming back to Paladins!
I enjoy your commentary and your continuous humor, I think you could absolutely step into the world of other games or general game reviews. I say this because Paladins has a time limit, but you're a great entertainer and you'll definitely be able to branch out without issue.
Not necessarily to other hero shooters, but even indie games of any genre or coop games, ect
0:34 Zhin is blasting off again
Wow.... This is some Dukesloth level Smite mathematics going on here. Thanks for the lesson Andrew 😊
been playing 3 years and never understood this till now, thanks. paladins needs to teach this to their players somehow
There needs to be a different term, or at least an explicit distinction in explanation between the in-game mechanic that reduces effectiveness (as part of the game coding that doesn't make values stack additively) and the mathematical phenomenon of getting reduced effectiveness purely from additively stacking numbers, because it is actually the latter that is referred to with the term "diminishing returns".
To elaborate diminishing returns:
I deal 100 damage base and i receive an item that gives me a 50% damage bonus, which brings me to 150 damage. This is a 50% increase to total damage (50/100).
I receive another item that gives me a 50% damage bonus (now 100% total), which brings me to 200 damage. This second item is a 33.33% bonus to total damage (50/150).
I receive yet another item that gives me a 50% damage bonus (now 150% total), which brings me to 250 damage. This third item is a 25% bonus to total damage (50/200).
Another 50% damage bonus (now 200% total) will bring me to 300 damage, which is a 20% bonus to total damage (50/250).
In this case, diminishing returns means that any additive damage bonus beyond the first one impacts my total damage less than it's face value.
However, the reverse is actually true for damage reduction if it was coded to stack additively:
I take 100 damage at 0% DR.
I get an item that gives me 10% DR, which prevents 10 damage. I take 90 damage, which equates to 10% damage reduction (10/100)
I get another item that gives me 10% DR (now 20% total) which brings me up to 20 damage prevented. I am now taking 80 damage, and this second item is now actually an 11.11% damage reduction (10/90)
If i get a third item that gives me 10% DR (now 30% total) which brings me up to 30 damage prevented, I now take 70 damage, and this third item is now a 12.5% damage reduction.
In an extreme example where i have nine 10% DR items, the tenth item will have given me 100% damage reduction since i'm going from 10 damage taken to 0 damage taken.
This is why damage resistance/armor/mitigation mechanics in games are never additive nor linearly scaling, and it is an intentional coding (developer-determined formula) that determines the final damage reduction, and this is separate from what we know as "diminishing returns".
So we not gonna talk about that beautiful Koga ult at 1:50 😂
That's why I run Haven 3 and Vet 3. I put it on Buck with the Bulk Up Talent.
Another important thing is that Rejuvenate doesn't counter Cauterize because Rej effect applies after Caut. Example: You get healed by 1000 HP, you have Rej 3 (+18%) and you're under Caut 3 (-80%) so you get only 236 HP instead of 620 HP.
It used to be like that. Now you get 380. 180 from Rejuvenate and 200 from base. It was changed in a patch back in 2018. The same should apply to speed buff and slows but it is harder to test.
Veteran and Haven play off each other. People say not to take both unless absolutely necessary, but like they work in tandem without diminishing returns
so its either stick to one full % card (except movement bc they stack bettter) and the item or two medium- small % cards (im using the terminus damage reduction so i gues buying heaven is almost useless unless i tweak my deck but i dont think i will)
I feel like veteran would be better buy than haven for inara if youre running DR while feild is up bc youll almost always have DR activated (feild amd guard) so haven wouldnt be as effective. Right ?
There's one character, as far as I know, who doesn't suffer from diminishing returns, which you could actually make into a video, Pip. As far as I know, stacking Acumen at level 5 and adding Life Rip 3 does not trigger diminishing returns, you still get the full 80% lifesteal. Not sure exactly why but it's very good getting like 400 somethin heals per shot
Problem is by the time you get to life rip 3, at least one or two enemies will have caut 3 to diminish the effects of life steal 🤔
I have a question.
I have the reload speed card with raum in a build. Also buying the reload speed item. At what level should i have the reload speed card? Closest to 20% like the video says? Or at 5 and just buy the reload item to a certain point? Like one or two
There are two ways to go about it. 1: set the card to level 3 (21%) and then buy deft hands 2 for getting as close to 60% as quickly as possible. 2: set the card to max level (35%) and then buy deft hands 1 for 5% under maximum reload speed for a more credit-effective build. However, when it comes to Raum, I just wouldn't run the reload speed card at all. Raum gets far more value from dr, sustain, health, and juggernaut cd reset in most cases.
@@AndrewChicken thank you so much andrew man. I love you, keep it up with the great content. Btw, when are we getting a new raum video? 😈😈😈 just kidding. Just thank you for the help and for taking the time to answer a comment from an old video. Forgive my english also, is not my first language 🙌🙌🙌
what about cd reduction like evies impact 5 and killing frost 2?
I'm the Kengineer. Let's solve a practical problem.
Raum- that’s my vetrin
So, Veteran and Haven on Yago is a good choice ?
idk how it works with morale boost, i go with raums 60% ult charge lvl 3 morale boost and have an octavia in my team with commanders ultimate, i doubt now ill get the full effect but it still charges hecking fast
Wait.... so does DR apply with mal'damba and ash?? Like what is ash life steal is max and mal uses that one card that goes 40% LS if you stand in his gourd??
A big takeaway from this video, I think, is that Veteran needs a massive buff
Not necessarily. The big brain move for mega survivability is to buy BOTH veteran and haven ;)
But if you have to choose 'twixt the two, haven is always the best option. Veteran should also be weaker anyways, because it's cheaper. If you're short on credits, then veteran will still give you survivability without hurting your wallet as much.
@@AndrewChicken not cheaper after next patch
Does it apply to cool down reductions?
Is rei’s midnight stroll card stacked with DR since they are two different things as one is less damage done by enemy and the other is DR for yourself
I'm assuming this would function like the bonus damage to you vs opponents take more damage interaction, like a furia ult combined with a hunter's mark. Since you buff yourself and debuff your opponents they're two different effects and so would be unaffected by diminishing returns
all we need is an explanation on the modern cauterize because I still do not understand it.
Does DR apply to cooldowns??
What about jenos lifesteal?
Thank you for this video
Can someone list some important stuff in a document?
Does this diminishing returns rule apply to cripples/stuns/slows too? I notice when i try to stun someone who's already stunned with a furia beam it feels shorter (like someone in a Genos grab). If it's the case how would this interact with Inara's treacherous ground talent for example?
If the stuns/cripples are applied at the same time (meaning the second stun comes at any point while the first stun is active), I believe the duration of each subsequent stun/cripple is diminished. However, it doesn't say anything about this on the wiki, and would require extensive testing that I haven't done. This is simply what my hypothesis is based off ingame experience and rumors which I've heard, and you should take this with a grain of salt. I may try and test this at some point, and there might already be videos or posts about that elsewhere that I am unaware of.
For slows, yes, diminishing returns absolutely applies to the strength of the slow, not the duration. So, with Inara's warder's field, any slows on top of that will incur diminishing returns, unless that slow is a larger slow than her warder's field, in which case the slow from the warder's field will be diminished instead. Slows are effectively the inverse of a movement speed increase, and so they would be calculated with the movement speed equation and not the regular effect equation.
The cripple on T. Ground is applied continuously. I am not sure how this affects cripples which are applied on top of it. For example, if Grover were to use crippling throw on someone who is in warder's field and then they step out of warder's field, I don't know if that cripple will have a diminished duration.
40+21% ms isnt 61%? :D nice vid btw
How come you don't mention cooldown reduction whatsoever?
Do u think the game would be better if it's just straight-forward honest, like without Diminishing Returns? Like with 50% card and LifeRip 30% = 80% so everyone can see that number?
I'm still having trouble calculating Yaggo's DR while Hardening is active with End Of An Era card at 5 points. I don't fully understand the wording of the card. Is it Yaggo's base 35% DR doubled to 70% total?
Same lol
But veteran is cheaper than haven though?
Does this apply on octavias cooldown passive?
the way cooldown reduction works is quite a bit different, you might be able to find a reddit thread somewhere explaining it.
How do I know which bonus comes first or second when using the calculator?
It doesn't matter the order in which you input them. The biggest value will always be "m" in the equation, no matter which slot you put it in.
@@AndrewChicken thanks Andrew!
What happens with Seris Healing talent? The calculator doesn't take 300%.
Nice editing Andrew315Idea
Andrew315Kool_TK
Andrew420Ass
You never said anything about ult charge
0:34 lmao zin
Is this why damba can’t have super high reload because it caps.
So Rie, Corvus and octave road boost won’t help when you have full deft hands on damba
Deft Hands 3 Already gives you the ideal dmg combo of shoot-reload-shoot-reload. More reload speed wouldn't help because you still have to shoot to be able to reload again. So going above that wouldn't matter.
I'll need to watch this 3 more times to understand it 😅😂😂
So does that mean I'm wasting credits playing Terminus with his UNDYING Talent + Strength of Stone at Level 5 + Haven???
Someone show this to current day Andrew cause now he thinks rejuvenate doesn't get diminishing returns.
Yeah, I forgor 💀
I was corrected on this by some comments a few weeks ago, and haven't made this mistake since.
I summon nerds from r/Paladinsacademy here.
me a yagorath main realizing she mode useless than i thought guess you can just buy haven and veteran 3 ez
I dunno bro,,all the explanations are screwing in my head..yeah get a bit of it inside butta",,,its gonna be like a month or 2 to put it to work.
:')
This video shows why even if paladins is a janky, it's still a good game. So much work has been put into the game
5th