Why Didn't Leto Destroy The Ixian Technocracy?
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- In the Dune Universe, the 9th planet in the Alkalurops, star systems was known as IX. The Ixians not only lived on the edge of the human empire, they operated in ways which pushed the limits of the universal ban on thinking machine intelligence. After the Machine Crusade, the Butlerian Jihad which violently expunged all computing technology, it was agreed during the Great Convention that the violation of the ban on thinking machines would result in execution. Still, the Ixians were not subjugated in the empire, Ixian technology was widely acknowledged to be the best so they were allowed to exist and a blind eye was turned as long as they did not go too far. According to the appendix of Dune, Ix along with the planet Richese had escaped the more severe effect of the Buterlian Jihad and remained strongholds of machine technology. Machine culture permeated Ixian society and this only seemed to increase during the time of the god emperor and after it. The God Emperor, Leto II acknowledged the dangers of Ixians invention; he tolerated them for reasons which they themselves struggled to understand.
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I think that Herbert's interpretation of the dangers of AI technology are much more on point than most others. The danger was never that the AI will rise up and enslave us but rather that people who control the AI would use it for that purpose. To dominate and dehumanize vast numbers of other people.
Daddy Bezos and Uncle Elon say high.
Another good opinion has been voiced by Randal Monroe of XKCD fame. "I don't worry about when AI becomes smart enough to rule us. I worry about the time between now and then where "AI is smart enough to allow a handful of wealthy people to control a massive army of drone kill bots".
He pictured what AI would do under capitalism. But it is better to see it as "Automation", it has been happening. The better the technology the less labour power averaged people had and the more easily rich people would make profit and exploit people.
@@theelectricprince8231 I'd be careful about making such precise statements. Herbert's politics were broadly small-c conservative and he was a critic of socialism as well.
I'd say Herbert was more generally skeptical/fearful of any societal lever that allowed a small group so much control with so little consent. Just as he was skeptical/fearful of charismatic leaders.
@@Bustermachine I don't think he critised socialism but I feel like he was an Anarchist.
@@theelectricprince8231 He was a critic of the Soviet Union (which yes, I know wasn't socialist) but I think he was generally skeptical of any type of mass movement or consolidation of power. Even distributed power.
Anarchist might be the correct description but I've heard of his politics being described as conservative as well and I think a lot of his beliefs don't really line up with modern western anarchist thought (such as it is).
I suppose it would depend on examining him in a historical context. Easy to forget, but Herbert was born literally a hundred years ago and even Dune itself is now over fifty years old. So there's certainly much that is dated despite rather timeless qualities.
Edit : For instance, there's another hoopla right now over people discussing if Dune is a 'White Savior' narrative. I'd urge people not to get angry at this and big brain how the media just doesn't understand dune.
Dune is a warning against Messiah but that doesn't mean it isn't stepped in orientalism. It was a product of its time and herbert would have been immersed in those ideas all of his formative years.
Ixians: "Video games, Lord?"
Leto II: "Granted."
Ixians: "...Social Media?"
Leto II: "We've been over this before, many times as I recall over the centuries...denied."
Ixians: "Understandable have a nice day, Lord."
Well, isnt the Diktatel Letos private Blog?
As you leave a comment on social media.
Social media is barely any technological innovation
Private blog??? You mean a journal? 😂
@@grahamstephens1117A private blog can basically be used as a journal…I’ve used one that way before.
Leto moved Ix from the potential creators of destruction into creators of preservation. Null entropy, no rooms and no ships. All key to humanities survival.
@TryllaTröllMaistre Fictitious Fables of Europa which planets language is that?
@TryllaTröllMaistre Fictitious Fables of Europa You most be the fabled Unamusing Troll,
Yes, exactly, you beat me to it by 5 months.
All Leto really needed from them was the no-ship technology. That plus the prophecy-blocking Siona genotype was all that was needed to make the Scattering possible.
@@hoi-polloi1863 True, but I think there is also the idea that he was culturally instilling certain concepts and ideas that led to the Scattering. He saw that a people that could be ruled by one institution, could be destroyed at once by an enemy. That people drifted into a false since of security, only to have their descendants succumb to invasions and disaster. In the Golden Path, he rejects the primal inclination for a tribal society with set roles and a guaranteed existence, and sees a humanity that is cautious toward its own nature.
A giant desert slug scoffing cyborg people of not being human enough. GG Leto
Leto was the most human of all.
@@dorbie Indeed. Leto would probably view the Ixian disposition towards cybernetics as incidental to their 'machine mindset' and it is not the US of the machines itself that is a danger but only introduces the possibility of danger.
Fuck that big bug
Who remembered thousands of lifetimes living as human. Serious sacrifice giving that up.
Mitwit take, but kinda funny.
Also: the Scattering (and thus the Golden Path) required Ixian navigation devices, bypassing Guild and its Navigators.
This can't be overlooked. The scarcity of spice wasn't only a means of control. It was a method of making humanity chafe in their confinement. It had to be as absolute as possible. He knew given the chance the Guild would fashion an illicit revenue stream in contravention of Leto's travel restrictions. So he ensured a bottleneck of the number of Navigators they could create and maintain.
So both the Ixians and Bene Tleilax found their own unique methods around it. Thus creating a situation where spice, and by extension the Guild, could never again be a limiting factor in human movement.
The golden path was always about evolving humans socially to a point where they could never choose to be tempted into stagnation. It was always stagnation that caused machines to be a threat to humanity, as stagnation was the one thing that would ensure humanity's destruction. Once the the path was complete, which we are told would happen once Leto II dies, Humanity could once again choose its own path. By then, even the temptation of stagnation through an AI controlled Utopia would no longer be enough to break the need for humans to always think for themselves. Leto II did not need to kill the Ixians, because he was not a murderer by nature. Spice was also denied to most of humanity, because humanity needed to break all addictions. The Guild was a slave to it, and the Sisterhood sacrificed everything to keep it. It is this lack of ability to overcome the Butlerian Jihad after more than 10,000 years that the Golden Path was also addressing. In the end, before Leto II dies, all of the groups overcome their own dogma, and this was the stage where machines were nothing more than tools instead of sentient competitors.
And the same goes with any dependency whether it'll be automation, AI, or even bio-engineered tools (i.e. Clones, Gholas).
Undoing the dependence on engineered humans (Guild Navigators, Mentats) was a side effect of the Golden Path as stated with "breaking humanity of all addictions". The No-ships were probably one of the technologies he pushed for to prevent Atreides descendants or other prescient beings from seeing a great many humans by the time of the Scattering. Those ships could space-fold using "mathematical compiler" computing systems, but did such systems represented progress away from the proscriptions of the Butlerian Jihad?
Well said.
Sadly, it is not within human nature for people to think for themselves, thus Leto's Golden Path was always doomed from the start.
It would have been better had he harnessed the power of his empire to plan and guide humanity himself. If someone is in charge, it might as well have been him, who was able to see down into the future, was immortal, and had the moral fortitude to not be corrupted, even after thousands of years of rule. Instead, he had some stupid pipe dream where people would all become ubermensch, if only they just realized their own potential, and didn't let tyrants arise.
@@taliesin7913 i dont think you really understood the books. Scattering caused by Leto II meant that humanity expanded so far and wide that no one could find and rule all of it. Humanity was bound to develop into manny different species. Trough this Leto made sure no power could either exterminate or subdue humanity. Some parts perhaps but never all of humanity.
In short; technology is too useful, and not a threat in itself, but how it is used.
Ix is a separate political entity that is both controllable and sacrificeable. Like a faraway island of scientists: if something goes wrong, you know where it goes wrong and you have the ways of destroying it without letting anything escape. And if you end up nuking the island, nobody needs to know about it until you allow it in your terms.
Its a delicate balance, but both necessary and worth the risk.
@Isolated Pixels it's true
This is why I don’t support firing/cancellation of researchers for ideological or unproven accusation reasons. Let the criminal justice system handle actual crimes, but otherwise let them keep up their societally beneficial work - modify their staffing rules if needed at most.
Obligatory "when is the ultimate guide to Dune: Chapterhouse Dune video coming out" comment.... Love your videos Quinn!
I hope that it comes soon
Came here to say the same thing
As long as it is "eventually." I am happy to wait years
I figure he is editing this video to perfection for us fans. I will be worth the wait. He has the best dune videos hands down
Ditto 😎
"What do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking.
Things we do without thinking. There's the real danger."
What a profound statement.
I wonder what Herbert would have to say about social media.
*no doubt his view of social media as it has become would be seen as a self inflicted cancer a sweet poison that many chose not to live without*
I don't know if I necessarily agree if 'thinking' machines are what lead to the numbing of thought. In my experience, 'dumb' machines (such as on a production line) or even unmechanised menial tasks, contribute just as much to the need to 'tune out' so as to not go mad. It's just not the same as handcrafting something, which is a meditive, healing process.
I suppose you could respond 'well he means that if we don't need to do mental work to perform the basic administrative tasks of life then we'll lose touch with the world and our place in it' or something, but that's also not really true. In a sanely run economy, automation would be a fantastic boon for everyone, as scientists thought it would be in the 1950s. They argued that by eliminating even many of the more complex tasks of general life, production, and maintenance, we'd all have more time to learn instruments, languages, sports, to raise children, to grow gardens, to meditate, to pray, to sleep. Now, of course, that didn't come true, because our economic system demands that those who work less should have less, incentivising everyone to work, thus producing an awful number of jobs that ultimately contribute nothing (and thereby ensuring that, since 1971, productivity has continued to rise every year, but wages have stayed the same). The only two ways of solving this contradiction, in my view, are to renounce all machines and return to some 'natural state' in which we will perhaps find a mystical/spiritual fulfilment that we once had (probably the more likely scenario if current trends continue, although I doubt that natural state will prove utopian), or to restructure the way we distribute the products of our labour so that either wages rise back up to meet productivity levels or we find we have no more need for the wage system. This is the less likely scenario currently, and with each passing minute our chances of achieving it drop a little further.
@@scottmantooth8785 TBF he'd hardly be alone in that opinion. I say as I agree while addressing a stranger in a comment thread in a video served up to me by the all mighty algorithm . . .
Something something, one cannot participate in society without being complicity in it, something something.
Anyways. One must imagine Herbert's views evolved with the progression of technology as well. Much as Asimov failed to glean just what computers would actually be capable of, Herbert didn't really understand the shape of the emerging technology either, although I think he did understand its sociological danger.
I think Herbert for instance, would have heartily approved of many of the ways we use computers for scientific and engineering endeavors. Just like he would probably approve of SOME of the ways we CAN use computers to communicate.
That's because these uses complement human agency and perform tasks for us that never really involved 'thought' in the first place.
Adding two plus two to get four, for instance, is not thought. Understanding why two plus two equals four and the underlying principals of mathematics, is thought.
A mathematician, or someone in a more tangible field such as climatology, must understand mathematics in order to construct their models. But the raw number crunching itself is a needless burden to task them with, even for the sake of error checking which adequate knowledge to create a model will readily reveal in aberrant behavior of that model under computational simulation.
what about the media in general? people would not be convinced of many things if the media did not fabricate lies and drill them into the minds of the masses
@@smallhatshatethetruth7933 This has the taste of bait to it, but sure I'll bite.
I want to make clear. None of this absolved individual morale failings. At the same time, there are media sources that have operated with integrity, but almost none of them have acted with integrity every time because, as it turns out, humans are rarely their best selves every time they are called on to be so.
First, is it useful to say 'the media in general' when the media is a nebulous body with no gate keeping functionality over itself?
I think this is personally silly and makes the question a moving target.
Everything from the Enquirer to the Watergate Expose could be counted as 'the media'.
Second, is the media solely an inviolate body pumping information into society fomr outtside, or is it responding to the punishments and rewards inflicted on it by the society it exists in?
I think the truth is both at once. Some media is incentivized to report favorably on one position above all others. This isn't necessarily horrible, advocacy is not bad so long as the bias is honestly presented. Some media is outright propaganda that does seek to manipulate with straight up falsehoods. And some is greatly beholden to market force and what their viewers wish to hear.
What I'm trying to say is that you're not wrong, but just blaiming 'the media' offers no solution.
Don't let Bezos see those robots loading boxes on that conveyor line. 😎
lol. Seeing that my first thought was "Amazon warehouse."
I disagree. Wouldn’t you rather have robots rather than humans in the high stress environment of a Amazon warehouse
@@PulsefiredGaming If it wasn't for the millions who need jobs and could stand the horrible working conditions, I agree. ✌️
Bezos will learn to fear the Jihad
Too late, already have robots helping with distribution in an Amazon wharehouse. Also delivering packages in the UK (could be other places too).
As Leto said, “We go forward; we go back.” In The Dune universe the future and the past are more linked than we can understand. Man builds the machine to free himself but at the same time he enslaves him to the machine.
Dune is not just sci-fi; it's also a great self-help philosophy!
@@mbaxter22 I, too, strive to turn myself into a worm to solve my problems and fix the world. 🥰
@@General12th There's close on 8 billion humans, 99.999% (at least) of whom are fucked up. Mending one is a trial and a triumph. 8 billion ? I shudder to think.
There's technological slavery. There's socio-political slavery. There's ideological slavery. There's economic slavery. And of course there's physical slavery. However, the most dangerous, most pernicious form of slavery is self-imposed ego-slavery. The bible calls it satan. The Buddha said the greatest warrior is the one that can conquer one's passions.
If we can see from whence our motivations truly spring and hold dominion over them only then are we free. Free to to do nothing other than follow the moral imperatives of wisdom and compassion. So we are either slaves to the winds of chaos or slaves to avoiding all harm. To harm others is to harm ourselves since wisdom brings empathy.
Thus it is that freedom is at best illusory and at worse an illusion.
Time and time again, I think that Frank Herbert would have written the Butlerian Jihad much differently based on how Leto II talks about it.
Honestly, I'd say we're living in the prologue of how Herbert would have written in it.
As opposed to the Penny Dreadful Terminator Rip off his son and KJA gave us.
The intense fetishization of technology, technological power, and automation. In particular the way that corporate consumerism has urged us to reorder our societies to make the adoption of automation easier.
A dirty little secret of computer science. None of these 'Deep Learning' or 'Big Data' algorithms are cutting edge. Their principles were worked out immediately following WW2. They were simple immensely computationally inefficient and there was no way to funnel them enough data.
Well, the internet and the smart phone solve those problems allowing massive amounts of data aggregation to take place. This produces only the illusion of intelligence, but it's good enough and can be implemented in such immense fashion while being controlled by only a very few.
Obviously. Fanfiction that missed the point.
@@Fridaey13txhOktober his son is nowhere near as worldly or knowldgable as Frank Herbert was
Now I have to admit I don't remember what version was written by. But the machines aborting babies to control the population sounds a lot like planned parenthood
@@Bustermachine We could look at it from the other side. It's possible that all "real" intelligence actually _is_ just an illusion of intelligence. Our brains are just the most sophisticated users of "deep learning" and "big data" around. The difference between us and our computers is one of scale, but not really one of kind. Maybe.
Last time someone was this early to something, Jessica disobeyed orders and had Paul ahead of schedule.
….LAST time? (laughs in sci fi future fashioned after feudal past, laughs in confusion)
I was always under the impression that Leto also fostered defiance. The Tleilaxu, the BG and the Ixians defied his rule and even cospired to attack him. But he was very lenient to them. Those who followed his rule where mostly save, but Moneo was only briefly accepted as kind of an equal when he questioned Leto in the end.
The same reason Gandalf didn't slay Gollum, they still had a part to play...
Leto is the Gandalf of Dune now
@@Akoom he is the White Wizard and the Balrog all wrapped in one.
Plans within plans...
Nice
*Bilbo; but it is Gandalf who says the line though.
leto knew that technology has it's place. he allowed them to exist and build their tech as long as they didn't threaten the golden path.
Since he commissioned the first no-ship, we can assume he intended them to play a significant role in the golden path.
Indeed that technology was crucial both to engineering his final downfall to start the Scattering and to ensure the role of prescience could be reduced to protect humans from his Great Enemy.
I assumed it had to do with the events in Heretics and Chapterhouse around no-ships and Siona's bloodline. Leto II appears to be setting up an arms race of divergent prescient abilities that perhaps is intended to set humans on his real golden path. (I am not convinced we ever really see Letos golden path illustrated fully in Franks books).
Never i would say
My interpretation when I first read the series was that it was leading to a survival of the fittest between the next stage of humans. Telax genetic engineering, ix cyber punk, humans 2.0 the sisters. However the face dancers, the American gothic couple, were basically an aberration to the timeline and shouldn’t have been created. That’s why they were basically hidden and stopped the path from progressing. I read the series way back in HS and realize later books basically rewrote the couple, but there were a few good years before the Brian Herbert books came out and the internet was young enough you could join a niche online group and throw out ideas.
@@alexalexander1772 Yeah, I completely agree with you. The Golden Path was about to be completed, but stopped at the last moment by the advanced face dancers who had a prescience beyond prescience that could see no-ships and the prescience of people with prescience. So while at the end of Chapterhouse humanity is still kind of fine, it all gets ensnared in the net making the golden path useless. However, Duncan and his crew do escape. I believe the golden path was intended to save at least a few billion, but it failed due to Advanced face dancers who just caught them all in a net. But, at least one crew did survive which is more than 0.
The Scattering could not happen unless the Ixians developed navigation machines and no-ships. The choke point on human expansion after the Butlerian Jihad was the Guild, which in turn was dependent on the Spice. It was to the Guild's advantage to limit human expansion beyond the Known Universe, because a single Imperium was easier to control than a diaspora of humanity into distant colonies. Leto's Golden Path required new technology, regardless of how he felt about it.
Get yourself a speaking (or acting hell why not!) role in something. Read something for $ man. We will listen
I like to think Frank was going to bring the Ixians back and tie alot of the characters together...he left breadcrumbs throughout heretics and chapterhouse. I keep trying to listen to Hunters of Dune, I just find it frustrating...I can't take the whole mother commander nonsense.
I wonder, how much "essential selfdom" was preserved under the tyrannical rule of the Atreides. Way too often, humans tend to become what they loathe the most.
That's what we are meant to understand when reading about how people felt about the god-emperor. He even talks about it himself!
I thought it was part of the golden path since their anti prescience technology is crucial to obtain a power balance in the universe.
Quinn thank you for your relentless pursuit of the Lore. I'm introducing my daughters to the world of Dune. And I have your insights to guide them. Well done sir.
"Many machines on Ix... New machines."
YES! YES!
Better than those on Richess.
God Emperor of Dune is my favorite in the series. It's the most profound.
I've come around to this view after 15 years. Messiah has remained my least favorite.
@@duncanidaho6600 I don't think there's a weak book in the Saga, in my opinion. However, I would have to agree that Messiah is probably going to rank the lowest for me too.
It took me a 2nd read through of God Emperor to really appreciate it and love it even more. First time for me was a lot to take in, like for instance Leto’s observations on civilisations, rebellions, governments etc. Then I found it a lot more easier to absorb when you realise that this is a human (kinda lol) who has available to him all the experiences/knowledge of humankind’s relative past through his inner lives and so his wisdom is genuine.
Totally agree. The first Dune and God-Emperor are the only ones I've re-read more than once. Masterpieces.
Funny how I think Messiah to be outstanding. I admit, after the grand adventure of Dune it almost seems depressing...but Dune: Messiah perfectly shows the downfall of the "Hero" in ways that really got to me. The betrayal, the morals of Idaho fighting the Tleilaxu tempering, the forces slowly plotting against Paul...the older I get the more I love Dune: Messiah...
Of course God Emperor of Dune is the real masterpiece because it dwells in philosophy, politics, religion, moral values and has with Leto II maybe the most alien but also human character in scifi history...and Duncan Idaho is the perfect sceptic mixed with a distrust all of us would share of being cloned into a world beyond his understanding.
I probably read Dune about 200 times...but god Emperor I didn't just read over and over...it changed my outlook on a couple of things...a book that changes you is " more worth than a ten legions of the emperor's sardaukar terrortroops"😆
"Many machines on Ix." -Guild Navigator
The problem was never Machines themselves, but Mankind's over-reliance on them to do everything for them, including thought. So long as Mankind never became dependent upon them as they did during the decadence before the Jihad, a high level of technological advancement was safe.
On Ix, maybe. Many machines on Ix.
@@dorseyblack9833 New machines... better than those on Richese.
But no, the problem with the Ixians wasn't that they created tech that came about as close to violating the strictures of the Butlerian Jihad, it was the mentality that made them only care about the letter of the law, not the spirit of it.
it's knowledge without wisdom. The Great Enemy that the Golden Path predicted, and which Leto II's efforts were meant to thwart were those within the Imperium that had that mentality, no matter which sector they came from. In truth, despite the fact that the Ixians were seen as the ones most likely to give birth to such an enemy given their research and technological progress, which Herbert's son seemed to favor with how he interpreted who the two mysterious figures were; the truth is that the Tleilaxu were just as likely to spawn such an enemy, with their over-reliance on organic based technology; creating such things as Futars and Super-Face Dancers.
the whole video is a reminder of the uncomfortable fact that leto, love him or hate him, was right most of the time
Leto's machinations manipulated the plans of other factions for his benefits, it's why they hated him so much.
"Lessons from over machined societies: The devices themselves condition the users to employ each other the way they employ machines." God Emperor of Dune ch. 21
I love your videos man! I've read Dune once a year for the past 11 years because of the complex and incredibly relevant themes, philosophical thinking points and how engaging they are. Your thoughts are always insightful and incredibly well articulated. I wish your channel enormous success!
I've always been amused that IX is roman numerals for 9 ,. And they are on 9 the planet
almost like it's on purpose...
It's said in the books that it's name is actually a number from a dead language
And that the people of Ix long ago forgot that fact.
As well as the rest of humanity having long ago forgotten their home planet..
leto never had the makings of a varsity worm god emperor
I DID 20 YEARS ON SALUSA SECUNDUS
Leto II liked to hedge all his bets by keeping everything available to him. He kept the old Fremen ways alive even though he knew the people following them truly weren’t Fremen anymore. He knew humanity would still need the old ways for their survival just as they would need the Ixians to supply them with the machines of their survival.
I think it was less about his prescience and more about him making sure humanity could go out into the galaxy and thrive when he was done pruning what wasn’t needed. He smothered humanity for thousands of years so they would flee and spread when he finally died.
When Odrade declares, "Cyborg him" toward the end of the Chapterhouse, I feel we reach a pivotal movement. Not just the decision, but the callous detachment, on one hand she loved him, and the decision came from human weakness even selfishness, on the other, the advent of the verb "to cyborg" reflects a full understanding that the "person" coming out on the other side is no longer the same.
because Hwi Noree's blaq kitty was too sweet and juicy. it made homeboy wanna be human again! ixian engineering
Just so....
Wow, I did not expect someone to actually refer to the Technocracy Movement of the early 20th century. Not even people who have studied Political Science know of it widely. You are truly a learned gentleman Mr. Quinn and your analysis of the Dune meta-messaging is amazing as always. I'd love to be in a philosophical discussion about it with you, because I do not agree with all of your conclusions ;)
For real. As a history buff I knew of the movement but not that it had a magazine. Gotta look for some volumes. Also what remains of that movement isn’t much, best I know of is the Venus Project and resource based economy movement from Jacque Fresco.
Technocracy members were the Greyshirts
Check out a channel called transhumania, he talks about that and a bunch of others
Singapore. Technocracy + Capitalism.
It's definitely relevant considering Frank Herbert basically grew up in the context of that word used within that time period. Is understanding of technocracy would have to be derived from that
It's crazy how we focus on just the first book, when Herbert completely deconstructs that through the rest of the books. Paul was not the savior. I love the elder Herbert's stories.
I think he kept them because they had the capacity to surprise him. Nothing delighted Leto as much as something he hadn't already forseen
Got into these videos 2 years ago when I had to read Dune for university. Had no interest in it, but found Quinn's channel. I'm currently reading God-Emperor of Dune. Thanks Quinn!
Leto was smart. He knew that Ixian technology had a part to play in the big picture.
I clicked so fast there's no views lol
Quinn, what's your opinion on this: why didn't other groups in Dune push technology in the same way once people saw Ixians successfully advancing while toeing the thinking machine line? Wouldn't say Sardaukar want to be at the forefront of technology? Seeing a blind eye turned towards technology would encourage other groups to develop too
HA, you have 40k stuff on your recommended XD. (For the record i am a huge 40k fan)
You should check out Grimdark Narrator.
@@sid2112 I have, I am personally a huge fan of Baldermort, and Majorkill though. for my lore anyway.
@@panzerspahwagen527 I haven't seen them, but I'll check them out. Got any good Battle Tech lore links by chance? I love me some Clanner action!
@@sid2112 i do not i am sorry.
@@panzerspahwagen527 it's all good, never hurts to ask!
Another example of technocrats is found in Larry Niven's Known Space series, and specifically in the book Protector.
I'd love to see Quinn dive into known space, there's so much to talk about!
Also the separatist in the Star Wars..
why are u ignoring Miles Teg? he is a crucial character, a step forward in human evolution...he begin seing the no-globs and no-ships, a new level of prescience
Have you considered talking about Ringworld or any of the other Known Space novels?
That would be great
Prescience is a wonderful thing.
Great video. The bit about the etymology of technocracy reminded me of a conversation I recently had about the Arabic derivations of many terms in Dune. That might be a good topic for a future video.
I really would like to know: your own thoughts and theories on FH's Dune's open end... what do you think where he wanted to go?
Hmmm, we are fast approaching our own "Technocracy" ourselves with our social media quickly deciding for itself who gets to speak more importantly, who doesn't.
Wow you used the word Jihad ...and yet you have no problem new Dune film says Crusade hahaha 🤪
The analysis is good; the acting voice reading “monstrous” voices like the God Emporer Leto II is cringey.
I'm not giving you a like for the algorithm. I'm giving you a like because your channel is badass!!!
Ix: is underground
Ix video: blue sky
Just trolling. Amazing work!
Ix is underground because the machines couldn't reach them there
in the past great war against the thinking machines
Can't wait for your Chapterhouse video to blow up the youtube alghorithm, bud
Too excited to be an early comment to think of anything clever to say.
I think your name works just fine. Which one are you?
@@sid2112 from the quality of my wit earlier, probably an expanded universe Duncan.
I Hayt myself for that last post.
@@duncanidaho6600 holy crap that was awesome! Hahahahahahaha! You Hayt, OMG, classic! Expanded universe duncan wrecked me! You deserve a million likes!
Nice video, is the Chapterhouse: Dune book review coming this year?
The thing that bugged me about the Ixians were their genetically altered slave class.
Do you mean the Tleilaxu and their Face Dancers? The Tleilaxu were the genetecists and bio hackers, Ixians were the technologists.
Sometimes I think the AdMech or Ixian Technocracy would be nice places to live for me. I dream of technologies that don't exist so often, but I'm limited by both my education and the technology of this time.
The Butlerian Crusade was not against machines in general but against independently intelligent(AI) machines.
See, when you do the history stuff, that's awesome. This is the kind of stuff I want out of Lore videos: actual info that informs the context of the lore. Keep it up!
Could it be possible that the Ixians were going to create something similar to the Faro Swarm from Horizon Zero Dawn that would destroy all life?
I think Arafel might be a a version of that.
@@drkFenix9
Interesting.
Can someone tell me what music plays at the begining?
Been searching for a while...
EDIT: i beg you
I kind of found your channel by accident when I was trying to learn more about Dune stuff after the modern remake came out. Your videos are so incredible. It's weird I could listen to you speak all day. You are so well spoken and articulate. No random utterances: 'umm', 'yeah', 'like' and so on. I just put your videos on in the background while I'm programming and it's awesome!
plus he knew that the no-ship was going to be the last step in the golden path to ensure humanity's survival
Arafel means holy judgement and refers to the Fremen end-of-the-world myth. It only indirectly references Leto's vision of the Ixian lack of true creativeness leading to a technological disaster.
the god-emperor wanted those automaton maids.
Seriously though, great channel. I introduced my wife to Dune through your summaries of the books and she is going through the series.
Technocracy？ you mean china? Predominantly most chinese leaders are engineers and/or men of science.
As Leto II points out, (paraphrase) you need a predator to drive you forward.
Technology is an interesting predator, it’s a tool of our own creation to make things both easier and doable (a screwdriver),
it’s evolution is literal intelligent design to make it better for us to accomplish greater things (Electric screwdriver).
Buuttt... then we use the electric screwdriver to build a nuclear tipped ICBM, them other men use their electric screwdrivers to build better nuclear tipped ICBM’s. Then we use our electric screwdrivers, nuclear abilities and ICBM’s to build predator drones capable of launching multiple nuclear tipped missiles below enemy radar....
Afterwords we split into two subs pieces, those who live underground in darkness and those above in radioactive light and take on HG Wells like characteristics..
Or, a tyranny comes along.
Quinn,
By exploring the early 20th century technocracy movement you have revealed the potential for even greater depth in your videos. I hope you continue down this more documentary-style format as I think the greater and more granule incorporation of history and other knowledge will make your philosophical arguments and explanations even more thought-provoking and substantive. You're laying a foundation for more interesting tangential projects (relating your favourite sci-fi properties to current events, for example).
Arafel self replicating robots? Gray goo hypothesis?
Or
Some kind of Dune Ceylon😀
The evolution of machines was way faster than that of humanity, if unchecked it would destroy humanity. The Butlerian Jihad and then Leto II slowed down machine evolution and speeded up human evolution, until one could not consume the other.
Gotta wonder how far can machines evolve themselves without human evolution. Can machines only evolve so far as their human/organic creators have. Obviously AI is capable of greater intelligence than human capacity, but it is human knowledge that created them. Can they evolve on their own, or would they always need the evolution of humanity that they may also evolve.
@@blackflagsnroses6013 That's not true. Once an AI gains self awareness they evolve exponentially.
@@bibblethealien1018 what does self awareness even mean for a machine? Human biology is adaptive by nature. That's why we can learn, but why would an AI behave the same way. And humans are evolved to ignore the incredible uncertainty of live and purpose via stop measures in our brain. Would an AI without our biological safety measures even want to be?
Sooo, this video made my brain connect the greater DUNE Saga story with the implied cyclical nature of time and the rise and fall of the Cylons in the BSG-verse. Perhaps, in context with this correlation, the introduction of melange helped to break that cycle.
The idea of technocracy sounds great on paper, but in practice the technocrats steadily gaining political power in our world today don't seem to have the common man's interest at heart, nor care a lick for what the public thinks. It's all about pushing social policies that almost no one is in favor of in practical or moral terms, but is supposedly for "the greater good" --- as always, Quinn, a great and fascinating video! Love that you include the history lesson for context :) Cheers!
No, a technocratic leadership would be too focused on their work to be really troublesome.
The negative evolution of "democratic" western society is not a random one but directed by decision and agenda that doesn't come from "communists", "technocrats" or "capitalists" but "independent" central banking cartels & sociopaths.
Technocracy is not good on paper either. Like, you can very clearly see that an ideology hell bent on inequality would not produce an ethical society
Globalist = Technocracy = NWO
Lol if you think the people in power are technocrats you are giving them way more credit than they deserve, almost everyone in a position of power in the world today got their through social and business connections, not any technical proficiency or expertise
@@unicornosaurus514 Technically a technocrat doesn't need to be technically proficient. Technocracy is a mode of social and economic systems, not a requirement of leadership. There are technocrats in positions of power and influence, see the WEF and Klaus Schwab, or Bill Gates and his incredibly influential foundations, as examples.
Your passion for dune is unmatched. Thank you good sir
I am so happy these videos are just you and your voice, minus "extra" characters
You are one of my all-time favorite creators on this site. Finally, someone who obsesses over Dune as much as I do!
Love the insights offered. I am embarrassed how much I forgot about the sorry of Dune. I experience it again in these videos.
Hey! Just found your channel recently because of you know why lol. I have been a huge dune fan for about 15 years and I absolutely love your videos!
I have watched old and new videos of yours multiple times a day for the past week and I have to commend you on your high quality and knowledge. You are amazing at what you do. I'm so happy to find a person doing videos like yours about scifi. Thank you so much!
1:22 I didn't know Gripen could fly in space
Leto does not want to save the universe from its own destruction, Leto wants to save humankind from the Ixian machines. If humankind is ruled by one person the machines will easily take him down and conquer the rest very fast but if they are scattered all over the universe and free - then it will be almost impossible to conquer each human planet. While the book talks only about the humankind but does not tell us much about the Ixian (how they grow and evolve) does not mean that Ixians are passively sitting, no, they wait to get rid of Leto and his control so they can take down humankind. There is a deeper mystery about Ixion's and there is a second perspective from their point of life that can be another separate book.
Bro thanks for keeping it up, Im really glad you ditched game of thrones. I watch most of your content during the GOT series and was just as dissapointed. Dune/Hyperion were all great keep it up man
I agree with previous comment "Dude where is Chapterhouse?"
The Ixian were part of the Golden Path
He knew that in order for his golden path to work he needed Ix and it's tech. He knew in the future what Duncan had to do.
Please cover the dune inspired episode of Billy and mandy, would really like to hear your thoughts on it, please consider thanks!!!
So a bit like the relationship of the Empire and the adeptus mechanicus in warhammer 40k
The “golden” is more the path of hell. I am not sure if the ends Justify the means. Humanity had to suffer for 4 thousand years, in order to go into travel into space.
I bet a lot of people who don’t really know dune still clicked on this video just because the title is so intriguing. This channel is so great
One of the things I love most in your videos, is how you explain your views and quote the books. Love your work !
What I still don't get is the lack off aliens I know it's supposed to be about humans but aliens should be able to do so much more or just have a brain more powerfull than humans
And a GREAT voice.... you could do Voice o ears and Voice books
I believe Leto simply craved surprises & the Ixians were superior as a source of most things surprising-
Pretty Good, Quinn. Keep them coming.
Have you ever read "The Omniverse: The Aeons War" Parts I - V, by Steve Karmazenuk?
If you don't mind some feedback: Keep an eye out for if you repeat anything you've already said (even if using different words) and cut back on those instances rigorously. If what remains in not enough for a video of good length, it's often preferable to pair the subject up with another subject to create a longer video that way rather than to drag things out if you don't have much new material to add to what you've already covered in the same video.
Or... just replace it with a few lines about Chapterhouse.
Good video, though I'd argue intellect, science, art, and philosophy are often intertwined. As they should be, a technocracy based on a more evolved enlightenment ideals would likely work well. As long as science acts with honor questioning. The history of scientist away from business and politicians is full of noble people. Though that's because politics and business draw the worst, no good person wants power over others.
Can you do an indepth look into the Missionaria Protectiva? Would be interesting how they sow the seeds of superstition.
When will we see a video for "Chapterhouse Dune"?
extended universe lies.
you probably think the fishspeaker-ix alliance was impotent.
Leto knew how important they would be when humans would encounter the machine empire again.
What you are describing are the themes that lead up to Kralizec, which happens in Sandworms of Dune, the sequel created by Herbert's son.