Rappelling with a Guide ATC and VT Prusik Backup
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2017
- Dakota, of Live Rogue, walks you through one way to rappel with a personal backup. There are many ways to do this, but this one we have found is redundant and makes our team happy and confident. With that said...
WARNING: Getting off the couch is inherently dangerous! You must assume all the risk prior to embarking on an adventure. Any person using skill/equipment is personally responsible for learning the proper techniques involved, assumes all risks, and accepts full responsibility for all damages or injury, to include but not limited to death. Test and practice with your equipment in a safe manner to determine compatibility and performance characteristics before deploying during an adventure. If you cannot master a system/process/skill/equipment that we have used, or question any part of this video, consider this video for entertainment purposes only!
Used to make this video...
VT Prusik amzn.to/45bErBs
ATC-GUIDE BELAY/RAPPEL DEVICE amzn.to/45ccgCn
Grivel Lambda HMS Twin Gate Carabiner amzn.to/44PDcrQ
Sony a6300 amzn.to/3Kn2GVj
Music from Jukedeck - create your own at jukedeck.com
Title graphics from iNSCAPE Digital www.inscapedigital.com/presets/ 
Хобби
Finally someone shows a very simple way to rappel with a short amount of devices. Thanks a bunch.
Use aluminum figure 8 for more old school
@@darkmatter5262 yess bro I use it often and even to train newbies.. but in tactical rescue situations I prefer petzl grigri and ascender combo
By far the clearest and most concise rappel with backup explanation I've ever seen. Makes the system feel so much more intuitive. Thank you!
This was actually super helpful...I just learned something that could ACTUALLY save my life
The great thing about the vt is that if you are using it to ascend it will loosen up as puessure is applied to the opposite end when used in conjunction with a small pully. I was an arborist before I started climbing rocks and this was the preferred way to climb up if you are using a doubled rope system, before all the fancy single rope techniques came about.
I like your clear speaking explanation of things. You inspire confidence, my man !
It's very clear to me...... I got the answer to my question from your video...... thanks a lot........👍
Great idea! The VT Prussik that is! I will try this next time.
Subscribed: I learn well from this guy; right pace for brain.
Absolutely Perfect Eplanation
Great video!
Thank you very much for that simple tutorial. I'm a beginner so I'm doing my research. I like the idea of the back up with the Prussik along with the ATC Black Diamond Reverso. I'm just thinking of basic rapelling. Nothing big.
Excellent!
AweSOME VIDEO.
Awesome thanks man!
Nice, thanks man.
i think that the blocking knot must be under the belay device, on the active rope. If you don't do that your knot could block so high that you can't free it. That will leave you hanging on the rope, and you will only have the option of climb up the rope to release the tension.
En mi opinion el nudo de bloqueo siempre debe hacerse por debajo del dispositivo descensor, sobre la cuerda activa. En caso de no hacerlo el nudo puede bloquearse en la parte superior, de tal manera que sea imposible liberarlo. Esto te dejaría colgando de la cuerda con la única opción de ascender por la misma para liberar la tensión del nudo.
This is true when using a prusik, but, if the VT is correctly setup you will not have the issue. We shared your concerns years ago before we got the VT. Thank you for your comment we hope you give the VT a try... it's really interesting and well worth a few minutes to experiment in a safe environment.
it can, so it's something you need to be aware of and don't make the extension too long. In the same way if you put abseil device high and your prussic loop is too long it will hit the abseil deivce and not lock, you need to understand your kit and set up. This way is at least very easy to ascend the rope
Very helpful! I've been learning more rock climbing and rappelling info for emergencies (I live in the mountains, kind of essential) and this is by far the best set up I've seen for rappelling. Clear and easy to understand in your video, thanks for posting!
You should read or get Andy Kirkpatricks book "Down" which is very comprehensive.
Thank you so much
Thanks sir!
If the prussik is above the belay device, then the prussik has to hold your whole weight in a fall. If it's below the device, then it only has to act as a brake hand, and as we all know, that requires significantly less force.
and??? We all know it is faster abseiling with a prusik above than below too. Are you worried it will break? There is also the advantage in that if you did fail to tie back up knots and the rope slipped through your plate you at least have a chance of it grabbing before you disappear.
No, this is the BlueWater VT tied in a VT. It's widely used in the arborst community as a single ascending send system. Remember this is just a backup., your hand is the most powerful backup
That’s irrelevant given the purpose of this application. The Prussik can hold 10X my weight for all I care.
Thank you!!!
thank you dakota...
Thanks for watching
Good one ☝️
cool knot!
I’ve been reading about this device/technique. Seems like it uses a lot of rope above the climber and at some anchors it might be hard to fit it all in and still test the rappel while still tethered.
you can also do this kind of prussik wrap with a looped cordellette. I use this all the time in the alpine, as a jammed prussik is pain to unjam.
Is it more recommended to hook the prusik to another carabiner like you did or on the same carabiner as the ATC? Thanks
I have tried this setup, using an arborist eye to eye. michoacan friction hitch and my belay device under the hitch. Worked alright.
UNTIL I came to abrupt stop. A situation I would find myself in regularly, cleaning a route or arriving at anchors, The friction hitch completely locked up on my rope. 100% could not continue lowering on it. Maybe my rope was too squishy. Or it was that I tested this with a climbing single rope, but I DO NOT recommend; hitch above rap device. Took my ascender and a bunch of hassle to get out of the situation
That's why specifically you use the VT hitch.. it releases better than most hitches.. and prusik descenders are not made for high speed descent. Rope prusiks are made for slow controlled work. Not recreational play. And VT is not a particular rope, but just a hitch. Tachyon is probably the rope..
clip a foot loop into the top prussic, stand up, take in slack through the belay device to unweight the prussic. now sort it out
Dakota, a few questions:
1. Is it possible to simply clip the VT sewn eyes through the ATC Guide mode aperture? To me, that would simplify the setup and remove the awkward runner. Rich Carlson appears to do something similar with the Totem.
2. Would this VT hitch work as well with double strand rappel?
3. Is there a convenient way to attenuate the VT prusik cord for (say) female climbers with shorter reach?
A1: In theory it seems like like a workable option. The ATC Guide mode aperture is clearly rated for the forces that would be applied in the rappelling scenario. My only potential concern would be the added friction to the belay device caused by the leveraging motion which would occur with the VT attached in that fashion. My gut tells me the leveraging effect would not be significant enough to hinder the natural motion or movement of line through the rappel device. We will test the idea and show our results in future videos and/or you could experiment with it in a controlled environment…. Let us know what you learn. As Rich Carlson discusses in his video you should place your VT lanyard if you plan to pass a knot. ruclips.net/video/Z-xjqI1WOY8/видео.html
A2. Yes, the VT Prussia works well with a double strand rappel.
A3. The easiest ways I can think to attenuate the VT prusik for those with a shorter reach is to use an attachment point closer to the climber - even use the harness belay loop as an attachment point if necessary.
After some research it is a very dangerous set-up. If the VT is loaded it's only connection to you is the ATC cable which is not rated nor designed for any load. Loading the ATC in this manner could be deadly.
Live Rogue That was a ‘eureka’ moment for me! My initial thoughts were, sure, that’d be a nice clean setup... but alas, of course its then only through the cable since we assume you’ve lost control of the rope. Seems so obvious now :)
@@LiveRogue I know this is like 5 years old, but I think you can still go back and edit your original comment. Perhaps it would be wise to edit that original answer comment to clarify that it's NOT a workable option, just in case someone doesn't read past it that comment. Thanks for the video!
Since the advantage is that it is releaseable then you might as well use a french prusik there.
For use on a double strand rappel, would you tie it around one or both of the strands?
Great question, I would tie it around both. Be sure to practice in a safe environment before you do this in the vertical world
@@LiveRogue Thanks! yes of course haha.
What type of knot is this called?
Sorry I'm so new to all this, so when I've tried this on horizontal practices it stops me when I don't wish to stop.
Do I need to keep pulling the knot down as I descend?
I have lessons soon but I wanna get ahead a little on the basics
Yes, you will to pull on the knot to allow it to let you down. This is the same as any other backup setup. The idea is if things get too wild and crazy and you completely let go of the rope you will not fall to your....
We are happy that you are taking a lesson and getting into rope access sports.
Thank you for that quick reply, i understand it alot better now.
Lots of little bits of info like that, all makes the difference 🙂 great video btw
@@LiveRogue Hello, I would like to ask you something please!! Usually we are holding the knot with our ' strong' hand? I mean If you are right-handed with the right? Thanks in advance!
Hi, could you help me with the reason why ATC is used? From my amateur research, it seems like the VT can be used for rappelling by itself without any other devices
An ATC (or other belay/rappel device) handles the heat from the friction of sliding down a rope. When rappelling use a backup; a VT works well for this.
👍👍
Ideally you should probably have the back up under the rappel device to hold the rope in brake position if you go hands free for any reason. The VT prussik is neat, but it isn’t a true prussik-it’s a different friction hitch entirely, and it seems sketchier as it doesn’t hold the rope in brake position...
Thank you for the comment. We thought the same at first but found that the BlueWater YT provides plenty of security for backing up a rappel. In the end it's all up to personal preference.
Austin Gillem , o rpp
rpp
Recently I notice a lot of climbers like to tie the prussic below the device (attached to their leg loop) to grab the brake end of the rope, (it's not an ideal method, it's just another method) I learned both methods back in 2001 and I've always tied my prussic above the device, because of this I revisited the idea of tying the prussic on the "brake" end of the device (just today actually) and I was reminded of the clear advantages of tying it above the device and it reminded me why I do it that way... try it out ;)
you can also extend the belay device (sling, etc) and clip the prusik in your normal belay loop. Much safer position than leg loop. Although the leg loop is possible but not recommended as the prusik can jam the device if you lift your leg too high.
I've seen the "prusik above device" only twice, one time in this video and couldn't imagine opening a normal prusik knot under tension. This way it makes much more sense. Still would prefer the brake hand option :)
So the ATC is on your PAS, is the VT prusik also attached to that same PAS? Or somethin separate? Couldn’t see In the vid. Thanks
Yes, attached to the same PAS.
@@LiveRogue that was going to be my comment. I think it would be very helpful to show harness and tie-ins in your video frame. Otherwise, I really like this setup and will be testing it out.
Hey Dakota is that a 30 or 45” eye to eye VT?
33" 8mm BlueWater VT is the one we use.... BlueWater Ropes 8mm VT Prusik g.co/kgs/Wppouh
Can this exact same process be used with two sides of the rope going through the ATC (both ends on the ground) rather than just one as shown in the video?
Yes, two ropes through the VT works. However, there is no reason to extend the system as shown.
Why extend the ATC? Keep the ATC and VT lower to avoid the VT locking out of reach.
It’s not locked out of reach though?
There is no reason to extend the system with a VT, that is one of the good points of the device. By extending, you increase the chance of getting hair stuck in the system and not being able to reach the VT. Extending the system was only needed for when there wasn't a rappel safety that could work above the rappel device and be releaseable.
Thought the prussik should be a smaller diamater rope. But I'm not a climber so idk
Generally that's correct, but the VT Prusik by Blue Water is designed so that it flattens out when under tension which provides a better grip. Thanks for being a part of the Live Rogue community.
Live Rogue ah i see. Thanks for the response. Always good when i learn something new
As an arborist, I use a 11.5mm tachyon climbing line, and for the valdotain tress prusik, I use a 9mm epicord prusik knot. 30" eye to eye prusik cord. Your prusik cord should indeed be at best 80%the diameter of your climb line. Knots that use same size line are the Blake's hitch or the tautline hitch. Word of caution, we call the tautline hitch the "sui-slide". I don't recommend that knot.
@@zacharyclark6956 yeah I was trying out taut line as a climbing knot and found it to be pretty awful. The lines were also the same diameter.
@@DavidLDFL Check out the climbing arborist RUclips page or educated climber. Very good pages to learn some things about rope work or climbing in general. I can translate most things from tree climbing to rock, but there some things from rock climbing that can't transfer back to arboriculture
I'm sure u have a significant amount of experience but, gate away when you clipped belay device appears to be a beginner mistake. Can you tell my why you chose to clip away from yourself and not towards?
Thank you for your comment. The ATC was clipped into a tether on a BD Alpine harness that does not have a belay loop which orients the carabine left to right. Since the set-up is near eye level and is connected with a locking carabine I feel very comfortable that the gates can be monitored and will not impact the strength or function of the rappelling system.
really cool thanx
How do you hook the vt to your harness?
100% yes
There are some other friction hitch options, arborists use them, which keep closer to the climber. That VT looks like kindof a chore to reach for
I used to be an arborist and this was the preferred prusik knot for a doubled rope system used in conjunction with a small pully. Works great trusted my life to it hundreds of times.
Now i need a vt prussic...😂
How long is this VT
31 inches
I wish people would quit calling a hitch a "knot", it is not a knot, it IS a hitch. The VT is a hitch of the asymmetrical prussic family. a loop of cord can be utilized many ways , one of them is you can create a hitch, otherwise a cord loop is not a "prussic" loop. language is important.
It’s a bad idea to put your Prussic above your repel device as it takes 100 percent of the weight. Therefore releasing it is tough if it’s placed on the brake end of the rope it’s just as safe and releasing it is far far eaiser
Our apologies that the video was not more clear. A VT prusik does not work like the commonly known prusik. We've received the same comment numerous times. It sounds like we need to make a new video and explain the nuances. Thanks for watching.
Live Rogue oh I would like to see that sorry for the confusion
unless you're using very thin boot lace, sinply ascending slightly to unweight the prussic means you can easily work it loose
that knot is not the prusik, it knot is the Valdostano or penberthy
Ese nudo no es el prusik, es el nudo Valdostano o penberthy
Great to know, thanks. BlueWater Ropes calls it a VT Prusik.
Prusik
www.netknots.com/application/files/3014/5838/3289/prussik-knot.jpg
Valdostano
www.eldiario.es/campobase/reportajes/tecnica/TecnicaNudos-seguridad_EDIIMA20160331_0284_18.jpg
By the way I like that double trigger carabiner grivel
;-)
It's easy to get into the weeds with knot/rope terminology - careful, it's not as clear-cut as you may think.
Rope manufacturers often use the term "prusik" in a generic sense to refer to a friction hitch or "rope grab" cord/rope products. They don't care if you use their Prusik cord to tie a Prusik, or a VT, or a Schwabisch, or a Distel, or whatever. Dakota was primarily referring to a VT Prusik cordage product and did refer to the VT knot separately. Bluewater has a specialty eye-to-eye Prusik cord product for use with VTs - it's designed to flatten a little bit under tension, but not too much, which can cause a VT to jam in some cases. The VT is still very popular in the arborist community, and the Valdôtain Tresse (VT) and the Machard Tresse (MT), and others, are often referred to as members of the French Prusiks family. I believe the frequently used Autoblock is also sometimes called as a French Prusik by rock climbers.
BTW, that was the first time I saw the Grivel double gate biner, too. Makes a lot of sense for sandy environments.
That knot is known as a valdotain tresse or VT in North America. A prussik can technically be any knot or hitch that grabs a rope.
@@LiveRogue look IT up in the books! That's not the way we learned in the course....austrian alp club...œav... I started climbing in 1983...
Small tip wear gloves rope burn can happen anytime and it sucks
Yep. Truth.
He did so well until his voice cracked on the last word
Thank you for the feedback.
this is bull…, prussik must be always under belay device 🤦♂️
That is not a prusik backup! Wrong knot!
It is a type of prusik / friction hitch. There are many different “prusik” knots my friend.
It could have been good if the annoying music over the voice presentation wasn't included. Be more professional with the presentations.