This has to be the best swing description in the world. Thank God, that Tom Sheely took the time to explain how a golf club SHOULD be swung. Thank you Sir, as a beginner I will watch this video again and again and again. I will practice this swing from now on"lucky for me I've only been playing 5 weeks so I have no bad habits yet" . I'm no expert on golf, I do know Rory Macilroy and he's dad Gerry, we grew up in the same little town, but from now on THIS VIDEO is my golf swing blue print.
Tom, as a beginner at golf I have decided to try to copy, Grants swing. I now carry a little book around with me which is titled "Grant Waite- Golf Swing" in this book I have wrote down your professional narrative. I thought if I start with position 2 and swung the club to position 9, it would allow me the time to concentrate on Feet- Wieght-Distrubution-Head and Passenger Arms. I have already been trying this for 2 weeks and it's feels great. Thanks again Tom, I'll get back to you. Mike!
Tom Sheely, what a fantastic video analysis and lesson! I mean, you have managed to put together in under 20 minutes what other coaches probably do in hours, days and weeks, and for a boatload of money! Thank you for a detailed yet very easy to understand lesson on the golf swing. [hat tip]
Thanks so much for posting this. Applying the principles from this analysis has improved my golf swing tremendously. I notice that i am now able to consistently hit the ball both straighter and farther by using proper body mechanics as opposed to physical strength. Much appreciated
Tom, this is a fantastic analysis of Grant's swing and the true fundamentals of golf. This is the first video I've seen that begins at the impact position, well done...you've explained this perfectly. For the folks making an argument against SnT, I went from shooting in the 110-120 range, to the 80's in a year...just from applying the lessons that you've explained so well. A friend of mine has been amazed at the improvement, I sent him the link to this video. Great job!
Part 5. SnT, Mac O'Grady, Sean Foley, Grant Waite, and Joe Mayo were all coming on to the public scene at the same time. They all promoted a "Stable Axis" golf swing, which was a "science-based" understanding of what is really going on during a fundamentally sound golf swing. The "old-guard" teaching establishment, who still thought swing path determined starting direction, dug their heels in and used their media power to attack the concept of a stable axis golf swing. Part 6 next
What a fantastic swing and explanation. I missed the stack boat a few years ago as I had a shoulder injury and was unable to play. While I'm no expert, I've tried to emulate some of the concepts shown and discussed here with some encouraging results. Very solid contact and a higher ball flight than I would have expected. I feel a bit like man alone, though, as I don't think any teachers in my area would teach this left-loaded swing. I played to a 8-12 hc most of my adult golfing life and I don't completely believe that this would lower it, but it would certainly make it more fun with these penetrating iron shots!
Reasonable question. I have been teaching for over 20 years and never heard of Grant Waite until a few years ago. I have always had an open mind about the fundamentals of the golf swing and never rejected a new idea or only followed the consensus crowd. I have known for years that the PGA promoted the wrong ball flight laws, so never blindly accepted what a PGA instructor might say was the right way to swing the club. I wanted to study and reflect and come to my own conclusions.
Great video! I think for most amateur golfers it's about getting over the idea that they don't have to hit up on the ball to make it go up. It's counter intuitive to hit down on the ball but absolutely necessary. The golfing machine, Stack and Tilt, MORAD, Sean Foley, Grant Waite, Robert Rock, Charlie Wi, are great keywords to punch into youtube and google to learn some solid information on how to improve your game. Thanks for sharing Tom, solid info...
Thanks James, many things in golf seem backwards - hit down to have it go up, swing left to have it curve right, etc. It was great to see Grant earn his card on his first attempt by coming in 2nd in the Champions Tour Q school.
Really great video! I am a beginner of golf and this clip really shows me where I should be aiming to be at when I eventually start hitting full tilt thanks
Grant is demonstrating a stable axis golf swing where the golf circle doesn't move which creates greater consistency in matching optimal geometry with optimal low point on arc. This is why Grant was always one of the leaders in ball striking statistics. Moving to the right to get behind the ball moves the low point behind the ball. Now you have added complexity to the swing because you have to not only move around the circle correctly, but move the circle back up to its optimal point.
Tom, thankyou so very much for your replies. I truly appreciate the tone, the content and the discussion. It is, quite frankly, very impressive and, I must say, so different from those which I have received from some S&T teachers. I agree with (almost) everything you said, particularly with the need for an upward attack angle (although I believe S&T makes that more difficult/late in the swing etc.) but I am a little at odds with the reference to "no value moving to the right"...surely (contd)
Wow, Michael, thanks so much for your comments. I have a few hundred videos on my channel and this is one by far is the most watched. It is 2 years old and I have plans to update it.
part 7. Now that I have learned more about a stable axis golf swing, I now have more tools in my bag of tricks to help students achieve lower scores by increasing consistency. If I have a student with a conventional swing and consistently hitting optimal shots, I am not going to change their swing. If they are not consistent, and I test an incorporation of a S&T fundamental and they improve their results, then I have helped them. That is my job. That is OUR job....
P2.When SnT hit the scene, I studied what they were saying about the fundamentals. I attended SnT schools and talked with Andy and Mike. Joe Mayo was a close friend of mine and we became involved in establishing Radar Golf in Las Vegas, which was the only indoor studio with a TrackMan. Joe was part owner and worked with TrackMan every day. He became, in my view, the leading expert in the world on the ball flight laws and the swing components associated with the swing geometry. Part 3 next
Part 9. Grant & Joe Mayo are good friends of mine. I recommend if you ever get a chance to go to one of their clinics you do so. The correct driver swing they teach is different from the correct iron swing they teach. I like to think of the single axis swing as not being different from the conventional swing but a better conventional swing. You make a good point in that not enough information is out there about how a single axis driver swing is different from the iron swing.
It has been on my to do list for awhile. It seems as soon as it gets close to the top, something else more urgent jumps in front of it. I even want to re-do the Face on view. I promise to try to get this done soon. Thanks for your nice comments and encouragement.
to be able to catch up with Grant or Joe but I will follow your material going forward. Points on which we would agree, I think, are that in traditional swing teaching a) any weight transfer must stay inside the right foot and b) it must move forward/rotate "left" away on the downswing...to their shame some S&T proponents misrepresent these
Mac O'Grady, who Grant studied with, was known as one of the best ball strikers as well. Sean Foley studied for several years the advantages of the stable axis golf swing. Justin Rose, Sean O'hair, Hunter Mahan, and Tiger Woods all have swings that are trying to minimize the move to the right. Charlie Wi is another example. The most important fundamental is repeatability. If there are two ways to accomplish the same thing, the one that is the most repeatable is the most fundamentally sound.
Mike, I like the 2-9 drill. Then expand to the 3-9. This is the core of the swing and once it is right, the rest will fall into place. Please give me updates from time to time.
Just about every player who went to S & T gained distance. Brian Gay who recently won, gave credit to Grant Waite & Joe Mayo for adding 15 to 20 yards to his drive to help him get in the scoring zone more often. They are S&T instructors. Tiger is driving the ball better than at any time in his career and Sean Foley teaches single-axis golf swing around the left side. Start left, stay left, go left. Not right at anytime.
A single-left-axis golf swing doesn't need to shift to the right in order to push off the right. A sprinter with their feet in the blocks doesn't rock back before they push off. They just push off. Even if one could show how shifting to the right could create speed, that lateral movement subtracts speed from the circular speed that is created from not moving your golf circle. The lost speed is greater than any possible gained speed.
In golf there are fundamental rules and there are exceptions to rules. I define a rule as what most do who are successful and an exception as something a few do who were also successful. Im always open to the idea of someone trying the exception, but only after the rule has failed them. Since only a few move off the ball almost a foot, that is an exception. And since we can't replay time, we will never know if Curtis might have won even more had he developed a swing that was more stable.
Thanks I don't have a specific review of all the fundamentals from the "down the line" perspective, but here is one I am working on that is not totally complete, but have uploaded it for you to view. It is about the hip turn in the back swing. If you go to my uploads, I think it will be at the top of the list if you have sorted them by date.
We worked with Grant at CompuSport back in the 90s. Great guy and always had a good swing. I think in this particular swing he is a little too far forward with his torso. Maybe he was trying to hit a specific type of shot though.
Part 5. I can produce an optimal ball flight with the conventional swing that has a small shift to the right to rotate around the inside of the right leg and then a shift back to the left on the downswing and arrive at the perfect location it needs to be at impact. I can also produce an optimal ball flight with a swing that rotates around a stable axis and doesn't rock to the right. The one you choose to do or teach is based on which one is easiest to repeat for you or your student....
And last, my personal experience, which is the only thing that matters to me, is teaching everyday golfers, the golfers trying to break 90 for the first time or shoot consistently in the 70's all have improved when they added just a few of the fundamentals of a stable axis golf swing.
You are right of course. John Daly, Jim Furyk, Bruce Litzke, Arnold Palmer, and we could list other funky swings that have made more money. It really makes it difficult to decide who to put my students side-by-side with when I compare their swing to a pro in order to identify a missing fundamental. To be honest Brad, I'm a little scared to teach my student to swing like Jim Furyk and not sure how to do that. I have found my students lower their scores quicker with Grant as the model.
Oh, and the most consistent ball striker of all time, who has an absolute stable axis golf swing with no movement to the right is the "Iron Byron" golf machine. Think of how many more parts and motors you would have to add to change that machine so it had a move to right and then back to the left while the club was swinging. You would also have to write a software program to control the timing of the right left move to the swing's circle. Much more complicated for machine and human.
The ball only responds to one thing and that is the laws of physics and motion during the impact interval which is 4 micro seconds (1000 times faster than you can blink you eye). When you say keeping the head stationary during impact causes many flaws, can you site what they are in relationship to path, face, attack angle, speed, etc.? Are you saying Grant's swing is sub-optimal (in the 90's, he lead the tour in ball striking)
Ken, you are right; though the driver and iron swing share most of swing fundamentals, there are a few that MUST be different. Those swing differences are born out of differences in the geometry that must exist at impact. First lets agree that the ball doesn't respond to the location of the swing axis or whether the axis is stable or slightly moving to the right in the backswing. The ball only responds to the laws of physics and motion during the fraction of time during impact. continue....
P3. Grant came to Vegas to conduct a SnT school and heard about Joe. He wanted to use TrackMan at the school. Joe and Grant hit it off and knew they were a perfect match to help all golfers. A short time after that they formed their partnership and slowly began building a great teaching program and several pros came to them. During this same time, Tiger Woods connected with Sean Foley, who was a strong advocate of SnT principles. Part 4 next
part 4. In Hogan's 5 Lessons, he writes, "We are all searching to master the movements that will result in a repeating swing... it is utterly impossible for any golfer to play good golf without a swing that will repeat." It is clear to me that Hogan believed the most important fundamental in golf is "repeatability". If there are 2 ways to achieve the same result (optimal geometry at impact) the one that is the easiest to repeat is the most fundamentally sound.
Trackman and other radar-based launch monitors can't see the golf ball/club impact, so it can't give you that information. In fact, it gathers no data during the impact interval because there is too much signal noise. I've looked at a couple hundred impact videos at 24,000fps and the impact interval is always around 11 frames, so 0.45 milliseconds seems about right.
Part 4. Another person who has influenced this transformation in the teaching industry is Mac O'Grady. Mac has almost a cult following among many golfers. Mac was known for his ball striking and considered having the best swing in golf. Grant was a pupil of Mac for more than 2 years. Tiger is a good friend of Grant and was once quoted as saying Grant had the best swing in golf. Part 5 next
continued... part 3. If we were building a swing machine to produce a high draw that carried 290, we would set the machine to swing the club at a certain speed, with an upward attack angle of 1 or 2 degrees, face angle slightly open 2 or 3 degrees to the target line, and a path that is moving 2 or 3 degrees to the right of the face angle. With a machine, we can build it to repeat that every time, with a human we cannot. How we build a "human" swing machine, must focus on consistency.....
The purpose of everything you do prior to impact is to arrive at perfect impact position with geometry of face path & attack angle optimal. At setup, you set up size & position of golf circle preparing to swing around the arc of the circle. The golf circle has an optimal low point you want impact to occur. It doesn't make any difference how good the swing is around the circle if the circle itself moves to a position where the optimal geometry doesn't match the optimal point on the circle.
Mr. Sheely, I wanted to know what you think of the idea that you have to transfer your weight to the right side in order to create power? That is the only reason that many instructors do not like a slide & rotate golf swing!!!!!
consistent with it staying inside the right foot, braced as Hogan and Snead did, there must be a little weight transfer as the hips rotate ?. Anyway, the other issue I have with S&T is that it appears to allow/recommend a straightening of the trailing leg, ...inducing a more complete shoulder turn yes but not generating torgue against a braced right hip. A comment on this would be appreciated. As I live in the Blue Mountains west of Sydney Australia, I am unlikely
Hello Mr. Sheely, like the video. At the risk of being calles a hair splitter. I´m pretty sure the ball leaves the clubface in under a half a millisecond (400 microseconds) and not after 4 milliseconds. I guess it´s not that important but I´m allways gratefull when somebody points out a mistake to me. Greetings from Germany (that´s where I learned to split hairs. Brian Gray PGA of Germany
the idea of shifting weight to the right to create power was considered a key fundamental of the golf swing years ago. Probably the majority of instructors still believe that today. Just like the majority of instructors today still believe the starting direction of ball flight is determined by the path of the club when we have known for decades that it is the face angle. Science-based instructors require a science-based explanation as to how this shifting to the right creates club head speed
At impact (:36) his left arm is pretty much in line with the club shaft. Yes Ben Doyle and Lynn Blake, who often use Waite as an example of their method, are always showing the position at impact with the hands well ahead of the club head, and an angle between the left arm and the club shaft, increasing the lag. So this video seems to contradict what they teach as the proper position at impact.
Tom- Good breakdown! Can you do the same from DTL?? I don't see an Analysis from there from you. Many points from that view which would be great for all of us to know!
When I get too 9 position my elbows want to fold .Actually right after impact..is there a swing thought or drill I can use to stop this and get to the more extended look and feel …thanks
Thanks Robert, I did make an error and will be redoing the video soon. what I have found so far is - total contact time is approximately just under 400 Microseconds measured with a camera that had 50,000 frames per second. i haven't yet found Trackman's data, Can you post where i can find trackman's data. Trackman would be the best source for most club and ball data, but do wonder if for measuring the time of impact interval the high speed camera might be better - I don't know.
Remember Curtis Strange? He changed his swing to move off the ball by almost a foot (working with Jimmy Ballard), then won back-to-back US Opens. I think the SnT guys are over-selling the desirability of staying left. But, what else is new in golf instruction???
continued... part 2. There is not a single type of optimal ball flight. A power fade or high draw both win championships. What we do know from research is that for any given club speed for the driver, maximum distance is achieve when your attack angle is up and not down. As the pros learned about that research, we have seen the average attack angle on Tour going from being slightly negative to slightly positive. to be continued...part 3.
part 6. I am not a "cool-aid" drinking, one size fits all instructor. Just like getting your clubs customed fit, you have to get your fundamentals customed fit. I am a ball flight fixer, not a swing fixer. S&T got a bad rap when Andy and Mike first came out. Too many establishment teachers didn't take the time to understand it and only responded to the superficial first impressions of what it was trying to communicate. All great players of the past have components of S&T....
I'm just a hobbyist, but would compare that impact position more towards top tennis players than golfers. Makes me wonder, what Mr Hogan would have said of the position @11:06. If one hits really hard with such legwork it'll result left knee injury and excessive strain on the angle joint.
From research we know that the average pro has 85 to 90% of their weight on their left side at impact. That can only be done if the left hip is beyond the left foot. If the knee wasn't flexed there would be issues. What you are seeing at 11:06 is a flexed knee while it is in the process of extending and losing its flexsion. The next frame shows more extension.
i see alot of videos, but i never hear anyone talking about what there left and and righ should do, like i heard only one person tell me that i need to pull with my left arm and not push with your right...thats part of the jkey of swinging but i dont hear any one of teachers explain that???? why is that?
goldenglove25 Many ways to skin a cat in golf. You can push the club or pull it. The Golfing Machine (TGM) calls it "hitting" vs "swinging". Pulling the club with only your left side is a great way to maintain lag assuming you never stop pulling prior to impact. The problem with pulling only with the left side is loss of power. To obtain max power you need to pull with both sides. via your core body rotation. That is why you see Grant's arms and shoulder maintaining that triangle shape and the upper arms pinched against the chest for the most part of swing. It's called "staying connected" , which is the way most pros "pull" the shaft. "Hitters" on the other hand push the club with the right side. This method is a better choice for strong players and players who don't have the flexibility required to be a swinger. A hitter does not need a huge shoulder turn. Tommy Armour III comes to mind as a hitter . Notice his lack of a big shoulder turn and his club comes no where near parallel on the backswing.
bicklesby1 You are so right. A 3 putt is the same as hitting your drive in the lake. To chip up outside of 8 feet and miss the putt cost you the same as hitting your approach fat.
Tom, surely a "stable axis" swing, can still be achieved, indeed always has bee wit great players, from the waist line UP, whilst, at the same, allowing the bottom half to at least pivot to the inside of the right foot and generate some leverage from resistance in the hips.....Also, every great player through time had the "impact" position you outline,(Golf My Way, 1974, page 17) but they did it with top and bottom halves working....not like this short-iron only swing"
Part 6. If Tiger comes in 8th place instead of win a tournament, Chamblee tells the audience that Tiger should go back to Butch, but has no comment when Phil hits it all over the map. Maybe Phil should go to Sean (or Grant and Joe). SnT used Grant in a lot of their training videos and I still haven't found a better swing to present the fundamentals of a stable axis golf swing. It is clear that more and Tour Players will also begin stablizing their swing as well. and Final conclusion...
Part 8. I was a tennis pro for 10 years before becoming a golf pro in 1991. Hitting off the back foot is the optimal way to hit a forehand. it is not for golf. The term, reverse weight shift has been around as long as the term conventional swing and long before we heard of S&T. It seems recreational golfers trying to learn the conventional swing, reverse-weight shifted a lot. A single axis is all about starting left, staying left and moving left. There is NO value in moving to the right.
Head center moving in front of the ball like he does on the way down would spook me. Waite does a lot very well, but straightening the right leg, then having to re-flex it seems like an awful lot of unnecessary movement to have to time. What are his distances with say an 8 iron?.
Pure and Simple Golf Swing i can just look at his swing and seeing how balanced, athletic and fluid it is, i'm sure he's carrying his 8 iron at least 150 yds. the pga average is 160.
+Pure and Simple Golf Swing Old Comment (1yr.) straightening right leg on backswing. If you've tried it I'm sure you found it's easy. All the best. Ira.
Your point about the player's weight shift - slightly more weight being reserved on the leadfoot, eludes me? I thought weight shift from backfoot, to frontfoot, actually increases power? Surely it would lead to more powerful strikes and longer distance if the player actually shifted weight from backfoot, to frontfoot, at impact position? The only way to gain the most powerful strike at the golf ball, is to achieve the greatest possible acceleration, at impact position? This is according to laws of physics as you mentioned yourself. If you accelerate your entire body mass (the weight shifting motion) you will gain more powerful strike at the golf ball?
If you and I were to build a driving machine to create maximum club head speed, we might build in the movement of a weight shift and because it is a machine, we would achieve power, accuracy and consistency. BUT humans are not machines and they would not be able to repeat the same movement consistently. Now if the weight shift added 20 yards, we might decide it was worth the "inconsistency risk", but if the added shift only added 5 yards, but fairways missed went up 10%, we might not. I have not seen any actual test results that have proven or quantified the amount of added club head speed from having a slight weight shift towards the target. In a long drive contest, you only have to hit 1 out of 6 in the grid to win. In golf you have to play every shot.
There is no question that the majority of tour players shift a little to the right. There is no question that many of these players are big hitters. To the UN-scientific mind, they assume that one caused the other. Big hitters do a lot of things that create club head speed. Even when that player also does some things (like shift to the right) that either has not impact or even negative impact on speed, the net result is still a lot of speed.
I wonder one thing. Why is, with his statistics and results over the years, Grant Wait all of a sudden the rule model for the golf swing? No offence to anyone, just wondering;)
feffes- That flat stick and that gray matter between the ears has ruined many a great swingers careers. That doesn't mean they can't have a great swing that is worth emulating.
Thanks, Steven You are right. The surgeon's patient doesn't need to know all the technical stuff, but they certainly want their surgeon to know it. Have a great 2013. I will be launching my new website soon - check it out ontarget golf association (no spaces)
Puggy, you are correct the left shoulder joint is the center of the circle formed by the left arm radius. Before talking about the head being the center of the circle, I should have explained that the golf swing has multiple circles in play. The big circle with the arm and club as the radius has the shoulder as the center. And the smaller circle formed by the swinging of the spine has the head as the circle. Also there is the circle rotating around the right elbow. And the circle of the club rotating around the wrist. But back to your point, the low point of the big circle is the key and the shoulder is the center of that circle. Good point and observation. Thanks
If your intentions are correct, your body will perform as it should without manipulation. There should be no conscious effort to swing with the larger muscles, your body is merely reacting to your intention to swing the club with your hands and arms. I don't need to tell my body how to swish a stick fast and make it whip. It's only when I try to tell it what to do, it will not react as it should.
you are correct of course, but having someone read this correct statement for some reason doesn't produce the desired effect for most golfers. It's not enough to tell someone about a fundamental, we have to help them experience the fundamental.
Mox_au I disagree!...when learning to swing a golf club, it is not instinct for most people! it HAS to be learned...some lucky people are taught at a young age and it becomes hardwired into their mind and muscles...but, to learn golf at a later age, one MUST learn the fundamentals...they must learn to feel the swing...must learn and think about what they are doing..then, practice, practice practice! I began golfing at 55. I am now 57..I went from 120 to 85..with only two lessons..but, MUCH paying attention to you tube...I hope to be breaking 80 regularly within another year...but, I have put in the hours, the studying, the practice, the drills, etc...
saying that "...traditional teaching puts the weight outside the right foot.". Anyone thank you again and, no disrespect to you, I look forward to a REAL video of a driver swing in S&T, traditional...or combinations thereof. Sincere best wishes
Sorry Tom but once again we see another S&T-promoting video where a short iron is used. Try this with a Driver ?. Nooooo! Angle of attack too steep and a golfer would need to lift his left side/head just before impact...This "weight forward/no hip resistance/close to Reverse pivot" swing does not work with longer clubs. Try telling a pitcher, tennis player etc. to stay on/keep weight over the leading foot all the time...still function but not wel.compared to "right side loading/hip resistance".
I think you've got it all wrong. You are talking about driving and hitting down on the ball etc, etc.... The reason he hits the ball so well and that he does appear to come through the ball is one, because he does point the left foot out allowing his hip to rotate more freely and two, that he is properly rotating through the moment of impact. All that other stuff is actually a byproduct of the proper rotation of the legs on the downswing. The left foot does nothing. You shouldn't be pushing off. It's along for the ride through impact. You also talk about weight percentages etc, etc. You can't hit the ball well focusing on "pushin" or driving. I tried for years. This only creates other issues mainly the impossiblibilty of consistency. The bottom line is if your hips are rotated through, a flat "drag" of the club through the ball, not "down," results on a proper moment of impact and a divot after the ball. You won't be able to "scoop" or lift the ball past the moment of impact which so many amateurs do. I think you are leading people down a path of frustration and not the proper way to hit a ball. Just one "student of the game"'s opinion. But I know it has changed my swing more dramatically than this explanation.
This has to be the best swing description in the world. Thank God, that Tom Sheely took the time to explain how a golf club SHOULD be swung.
Thank you Sir, as a beginner I will watch this video again and again and again. I will practice this swing from now on"lucky for me I've only been playing 5 weeks so I have no bad habits yet" . I'm no expert on golf, I do know Rory Macilroy and he's dad Gerry, we grew up in the same little town, but from now on THIS VIDEO is my golf swing blue print.
Great break down of the swing. When I start to stray away from what I am learning I come back and watch this video. Thanks for posting!
„The engine of the golf swing is the body, the arms are just the passangers.“ Most important takeaway of this lesson👍
Wish I'd discovered Stack and tilt 20 years ago!
This has answered 25 years of questions and frustration THANKYOU X25.....WOW IS THIS EXCELLENT
Tom, as a beginner at golf I have decided to try to copy, Grants swing. I now carry a little book around with me which is titled "Grant Waite- Golf Swing" in this book I have wrote down your professional narrative.
I thought if I start with position 2 and swung the club to position 9, it would allow me the time to concentrate on Feet- Wieght-Distrubution-Head and Passenger Arms. I have already been trying this for 2 weeks and it's feels great. Thanks again Tom, I'll get back to you. Mike!
Tom Sheely, what a fantastic video analysis and lesson! I mean, you have managed to put together in under 20 minutes what other coaches probably do in hours, days and weeks, and for a boatload of money!
Thank you for a detailed yet very easy to understand lesson on the golf swing. [hat tip]
Amazing video Mr. Sheely. I wish every instructor could see this video, it would change the GAME!!!!
Thanks so much for posting this. Applying the principles from this analysis has improved my golf swing tremendously. I notice that i am now able to consistently hit the ball both straighter and farther by using proper body mechanics as opposed to physical strength. Much appreciated
Tom, this is a fantastic analysis of Grant's swing and the true fundamentals of golf. This is the first video I've seen that begins at the impact position, well done...you've explained this perfectly. For the folks making an argument against SnT, I went from shooting in the 110-120 range, to the 80's in a year...just from applying the lessons that you've explained so well. A friend of mine has been amazed at the improvement, I sent him the link to this video. Great job!
Part 5. SnT, Mac O'Grady, Sean Foley, Grant Waite, and Joe Mayo were all coming on to the public scene at the same time. They all promoted a "Stable Axis" golf swing, which was a "science-based" understanding of what is really going on during a fundamentally sound golf swing. The "old-guard" teaching establishment, who still thought swing path determined starting direction, dug their heels in and used their media power to attack the concept of a stable axis golf swing. Part 6 next
What a fantastic swing and explanation. I missed the stack boat a few years ago as I had a shoulder injury and was unable to play. While I'm no expert, I've tried to emulate some of the concepts shown and discussed here with some encouraging results. Very solid contact and a higher ball flight than I would have expected. I feel a bit like man alone, though, as I don't think any teachers in my area would teach this left-loaded swing. I played to a 8-12 hc most of my adult golfing life and I don't completely believe that this would lower it, but it would certainly make it more fun with these penetrating iron shots!
Thanks Jenton
+Jenton Mastema Feel your pain, felt the same. Then I bought the Stack and Tilt book on Amazon.com. LOL>
Stack and tilt!!! Awesome
Reasonable question. I have been teaching for over 20 years and never heard of Grant Waite until a few years ago. I have always had an open mind about the fundamentals of the golf swing and never rejected a new idea or only followed the consensus crowd. I have known for years that the PGA promoted the wrong ball flight laws, so never blindly accepted what a PGA instructor might say was the right way to swing the club. I wanted to study and reflect and come to my own conclusions.
Great video!
I think for most amateur golfers it's about getting over the idea that they don't have to hit up on the ball to make it go up. It's counter intuitive to hit down on the ball but absolutely necessary.
The golfing machine, Stack and Tilt, MORAD, Sean Foley, Grant Waite, Robert Rock, Charlie Wi, are great keywords to punch into youtube and google to learn some solid information on how to improve your game.
Thanks for sharing Tom, solid info...
Thanks James, many things in golf seem backwards - hit down to have it go up, swing left to have it curve right, etc. It was great to see Grant earn his card on his first attempt by coming in 2nd in the Champions Tour Q school.
James - I have to keep reminding myself that this goofy game is a game of opposites, just as Tom describes.
Sure Bob. Tom nailed Grant's analysis. This is great info.. And he's a great model. I use his swing in a lot of my coaching..
Really great video! I am a beginner of golf and this clip really shows me where I should be aiming to be at when I eventually start hitting full tilt thanks
Grant is demonstrating a stable axis golf swing where the golf circle doesn't move which creates greater consistency in matching optimal geometry with optimal low point on arc. This is why Grant was always one of the leaders in ball striking statistics. Moving to the right to get behind the ball moves the low point behind the ball. Now you have added complexity to the swing because you have to not only move around the circle correctly, but move the circle back up to its optimal point.
Tom, thankyou so very much for your replies. I truly appreciate the tone, the content and the discussion. It is, quite frankly, very impressive and, I must say, so different from those which I have received from some S&T teachers. I agree with (almost) everything you said, particularly with the need for an upward attack angle (although I believe S&T makes that more difficult/late in the swing etc.) but I am a little at odds with the reference to "no value moving to the right"...surely (contd)
Wow, Michael, thanks so much for your comments. I have a few hundred videos on my channel and this is one by far is the most watched. It is 2 years old and I have plans to update it.
Good swing, good information! Well spoken! Thanks!
part 7. Now that I have learned more about a stable axis golf swing, I now have more tools in my bag of tricks to help students achieve lower scores by increasing consistency. If I have a student with a conventional swing and consistently hitting optimal shots, I am not going to change their swing. If they are not consistent, and I test an incorporation of a S&T fundamental and they improve their results, then I have helped them. That is my job. That is OUR job....
P2.When SnT hit the scene, I studied what they were saying about the fundamentals. I attended SnT schools and talked with Andy and Mike. Joe Mayo was a close friend of mine and we became involved in establishing Radar Golf in Las Vegas, which was the only indoor studio with a TrackMan. Joe was part owner and worked with TrackMan every day. He became, in my view, the leading expert in the world on the ball flight laws and the swing components associated with the swing geometry. Part 3 next
OK, trip to the range, a bucket of balls...and the job's done! I wish I could copy that swing physically.
Part 9. Grant & Joe Mayo are good friends of mine. I recommend if you ever get a chance to go to one of their clinics you do so. The correct driver swing they teach is different from the correct iron swing they teach. I like to think of the single axis swing as not being different from the conventional swing but a better conventional swing. You make a good point in that not enough information is out there about how a single axis driver swing is different from the iron swing.
It has been on my to do list for awhile. It seems as soon as it gets close to the top, something else more urgent jumps in front of it. I even want to re-do the Face on view. I promise to try to get this done soon. Thanks for your nice comments and encouragement.
Thanks Joal. Fox Hills looks like a golfer's paradise.
to be able to catch up with Grant or Joe but I will follow your material going forward. Points on which we would agree, I think, are that in traditional swing teaching a) any weight transfer must stay inside the right foot and b) it must move forward/rotate "left" away on the downswing...to their shame some S&T proponents misrepresent these
thanks so much for your comments. Good luck with your game.
part 10. We are all students of this great and difficult game while on this journey we all share. Best of luck on your journey.
Mac O'Grady, who Grant studied with, was known as one of the best ball strikers as well. Sean Foley studied for several years the advantages of the stable axis golf swing. Justin Rose, Sean O'hair, Hunter Mahan, and Tiger Woods all have swings that are trying to minimize the move to the right. Charlie Wi is another example. The most important fundamental is repeatability. If there are two ways to accomplish the same thing, the one that is the most repeatable is the most fundamentally sound.
What a great project. After I clear the decks a little with some of my other projects and will put that in the mix. Thanks for the idea.
So very well stated Tom! Thank you!
Mike, I like the 2-9 drill. Then expand to the 3-9. This is the core of the swing and once it is right, the rest will fall into place. Please give me updates from time to time.
Just about every player who went to S & T gained distance. Brian Gay who recently won, gave credit to Grant Waite & Joe Mayo for adding 15 to 20 yards to his drive to help him get in the scoring zone more often. They are S&T instructors. Tiger is driving the ball better than at any time in his career and Sean Foley teaches single-axis golf swing around the left side. Start left, stay left, go left. Not right at anytime.
A single-left-axis golf swing doesn't need to shift to the right in order to push off the right. A sprinter with their feet in the blocks doesn't rock back before they push off. They just push off. Even if one could show how shifting to the right could create speed, that lateral movement subtracts speed from the circular speed that is created from not moving your golf circle. The lost speed is greater than any possible gained speed.
In golf there are fundamental rules and there are exceptions to rules. I define a rule as what most do who are successful and an exception as something a few do who were also successful. Im always open to the idea of someone trying the exception, but only after the rule has failed them. Since only a few move off the ball almost a foot, that is an exception. And since we can't replay time, we will never know if Curtis might have won even more had he developed a swing that was more stable.
Thanks
I don't have a specific review of all the fundamentals from the "down the line" perspective, but here is one I am working on that is not totally complete, but have uploaded it for you to view. It is about the hip turn in the back swing.
If you go to my uploads, I think it will be at the top of the list if you have sorted them by date.
We worked with Grant at CompuSport back in the 90s. Great guy and always had a good swing. I think in this particular swing he is a little too far forward with his torso. Maybe he was trying to hit a specific type of shot though.
Part 5. I can produce an optimal ball flight with the conventional swing that has a small shift to the right to rotate around the inside of the right leg and then a shift back to the left on the downswing and arrive at the perfect location it needs to be at impact. I can also produce an optimal ball flight with a swing that rotates around a stable axis and doesn't rock to the right. The one you choose to do or teach is based on which one is easiest to repeat for you or your student....
And last, my personal experience, which is the only thing that matters to me, is teaching everyday golfers, the golfers trying to break 90 for the first time or shoot consistently in the 70's all have improved when they added just a few of the fundamentals of a stable axis golf swing.
You are right of course. John Daly, Jim Furyk, Bruce Litzke, Arnold Palmer, and we could list other funky swings that have made more money. It really makes it difficult to decide who to put my students side-by-side with when I compare their swing to a pro in order to identify a missing fundamental. To be honest Brad, I'm a little scared to teach my student to swing like Jim Furyk and not sure how to do that. I have found my students lower their scores quicker with Grant as the model.
Oh, and the most consistent ball striker of all time, who has an absolute stable axis golf swing with no movement to the right is the "Iron Byron" golf machine. Think of how many more parts and motors you would have to add to change that machine so it had a move to right and then back to the left while the club was swinging. You would also have to write a software program to control the timing of the right left move to the swing's circle. Much more complicated for machine and human.
The ball only responds to one thing and that is the laws of physics and motion during the impact interval which is 4 micro seconds (1000 times faster than you can blink you eye). When you say keeping the head stationary during impact causes many flaws, can you site what they are in relationship to path, face, attack angle, speed, etc.? Are you saying Grant's swing is sub-optimal (in the 90's, he lead the tour in ball striking)
Ken, you are right; though the driver and iron swing share most of swing fundamentals, there are a few that MUST be different. Those swing differences are born out of differences in the geometry that must exist at impact. First lets agree that the ball doesn't respond to the location of the swing axis or whether the axis is stable or slightly moving to the right in the backswing. The ball only responds to the laws of physics and motion during the fraction of time during impact. continue....
P3. Grant came to Vegas to conduct a SnT school and heard about Joe. He wanted to use TrackMan at the school. Joe and Grant hit it off and knew they were a perfect match to help all golfers. A short time after that they formed their partnership and slowly began building a great teaching program and several pros came to them. During this same time, Tiger Woods connected with Sean Foley, who was a strong advocate of SnT principles. Part 4 next
great swing! great video!
part 4. In Hogan's 5 Lessons, he writes, "We are all searching to master the movements that will result in a repeating swing... it is utterly impossible for any golfer to play good golf without a swing that will repeat." It is clear to me that Hogan believed the most important fundamental in golf is "repeatability". If there are 2 ways to achieve the same result (optimal geometry at impact) the one that is the easiest to repeat is the most fundamentally sound.
Trackman and other radar-based launch monitors can't see the golf ball/club impact, so it can't give you that information. In fact, it gathers no data during the impact interval because there is too much signal noise. I've looked at a couple hundred impact videos at 24,000fps and the impact interval is always around 11 frames, so 0.45 milliseconds seems about right.
Part 4. Another person who has influenced this transformation in the teaching industry is Mac O'Grady. Mac has almost a cult following among many golfers. Mac was known for his ball striking and considered having the best swing in golf. Grant was a pupil of Mac for more than 2 years. Tiger is a good friend of Grant and was once quoted as saying Grant had the best swing in golf. Part 5 next
continued... part 3. If we were building a swing machine to produce a high draw that carried 290, we would set the machine to swing the club at a certain speed, with an upward attack angle of 1 or 2 degrees, face angle slightly open 2 or 3 degrees to the target line, and a path that is moving 2 or 3 degrees to the right of the face angle. With a machine, we can build it to repeat that every time, with a human we cannot. How we build a "human" swing machine, must focus on consistency.....
The purpose of everything you do prior to impact is to arrive at perfect impact position with geometry of face path & attack angle optimal. At setup, you set up size & position of golf circle preparing to swing around the arc of the circle. The golf circle has an optimal low point you want impact to occur. It doesn't make any difference how good the swing is around the circle if the circle itself moves to a position where the optimal geometry doesn't match the optimal point on the circle.
Mr. Sheely,
I wanted to know what you think of the idea that you have to transfer your weight to the right side in order to create power? That is the only reason that many instructors do not like a slide & rotate golf swing!!!!!
consistent with it staying inside the right foot, braced as Hogan and Snead did, there must be a little weight transfer as the hips rotate ?. Anyway, the other issue I have with S&T is that it appears to allow/recommend a straightening of the trailing leg, ...inducing a more complete shoulder turn yes but not generating torgue against a braced right hip. A comment on this would be appreciated. As I live in the Blue Mountains west of Sydney Australia, I am unlikely
Hello Mr. Sheely, like the video. At the risk of being calles a hair splitter. I´m pretty sure the ball leaves the clubface in under a half a millisecond (400 microseconds) and not after 4 milliseconds. I guess it´s not that important but I´m allways gratefull when somebody points out a mistake to me. Greetings from Germany (that´s where I learned to split hairs.
Brian Gray
PGA of Germany
the idea of shifting weight to the right to create power was considered a key fundamental of the golf swing years ago. Probably the majority of instructors still believe that today. Just like the majority of instructors today still believe the starting direction of ball flight is determined by the path of the club when we have known for decades that it is the face angle. Science-based instructors require a science-based explanation as to how this shifting to the right creates club head speed
At impact (:36) his left arm is pretty much in line with the club shaft. Yes Ben Doyle and Lynn Blake, who often use Waite as an example of their method, are always showing the position at impact with the hands well ahead of the club head, and an angle between the left arm and the club shaft, increasing the lag. So this video seems to contradict what they teach as the proper position at impact.
Tom- Good breakdown! Can you do the same from DTL?? I don't see an Analysis from there from you. Many points from that view which would be great for all of us to know!
When I get too 9 position my elbows want to fold .Actually right after impact..is there a swing thought or drill I can use to stop this and get to the more extended look and feel …thanks
Brilliant analysis! Love it! At the end it was mentioned about the target line veiw. Is there a video for that?
Thanks Robert, I did make an error and will be redoing the video soon. what I have found so far is - total contact time is approximately just under 400 Microseconds measured with a camera that had 50,000 frames per second. i haven't yet found Trackman's data, Can you post where i can find trackman's data. Trackman would be the best source for most club and ball data, but do wonder if for measuring the time of impact interval the high speed camera might be better - I don't know.
Remember Curtis Strange? He changed his swing to move off the ball by almost a foot (working with Jimmy Ballard), then won back-to-back US Opens. I think the SnT guys are over-selling the desirability of staying left. But, what else is new in golf instruction???
continued... part 2. There is not a single type of optimal ball flight. A power fade or high draw both win championships. What we do know from research is that for any given club speed for the driver, maximum distance is achieve when your attack angle is up and not down. As the pros learned about that research, we have seen the average attack angle on Tour going from being slightly negative to slightly positive. to be continued...part 3.
part 6. I am not a "cool-aid" drinking, one size fits all instructor. Just like getting your clubs customed fit, you have to get your fundamentals customed fit. I am a ball flight fixer, not a swing fixer. S&T got a bad rap when Andy and Mike first came out. Too many establishment teachers didn't take the time to understand it and only responded to the superficial first impressions of what it was trying to communicate. All great players of the past have components of S&T....
Tom, great video. Can you do a similar swing analysis on Mac O'Grady's swing and compare it to Grant's?
I note macs was a shoulder release move from the top in one of his videos but Greg appears to be driving his hips to start transition any thoughts.
I'm just a hobbyist, but would compare that impact position more towards top tennis players than golfers. Makes me wonder, what Mr Hogan would have said of the position @11:06.
If one hits really hard with such legwork it'll result left knee injury and excessive strain on the angle joint.
From research we know that the average pro has 85 to 90% of their weight on their left side at impact. That can only be done if the left hip is beyond the left foot. If the knee wasn't flexed there would be issues. What you are seeing at 11:06 is a flexed knee while it is in the process of extending and losing its flexsion. The next frame shows more extension.
How does Grant get his hips open at impact?
i see alot of videos, but i never hear anyone talking about what there left and and righ should do, like i heard only one person tell me that i need to pull with my left arm and not push with your right...thats part of the jkey of swinging but i dont hear any one of teachers explain that???? why is that?
goldenglove25
Many ways to skin a cat in golf. You can push the club or pull it. The Golfing Machine (TGM) calls it "hitting" vs "swinging". Pulling the club with only your left side is a great way to maintain lag assuming you never stop pulling prior to impact. The problem with pulling only with the left side is loss of power. To obtain max power you need to pull with both sides. via your core body rotation. That is why you see Grant's arms and shoulder maintaining that triangle shape and the upper arms pinched against the chest for the most part of swing.
It's called "staying connected" , which is the way most pros "pull" the shaft.
"Hitters" on the other hand push the club with the right side. This method is a better choice for strong players and players who don't have the flexibility required to be a swinger. A hitter does not need a huge shoulder turn. Tommy Armour III comes to mind as a hitter . Notice his lack of a big shoulder turn and his club comes no where near parallel on the backswing.
Great illustration Tom. Is there a target line version of this?
I watched Boby Jones swing his left leg moves a lot
i just watched the bobby jones swings and despite his body coiling he stays very centered over the ball.
for such a sweet swing he's only won once in his career, back in 1993.
sweet swings dont necessarily win tournys , still gotta chip and putt and have things go your way .
bicklesby1 You are so right. A 3 putt is the same as hitting your drive in the lake. To chip up outside of 8 feet and miss the putt cost you the same as hitting your approach fat.
Thanks Jeff
are his shoulders square at impact.. if not how does he clear the hips with out getting over the top ? thanks
great way to hit short irons! nice presentation! driver is a different swing!!
why driver is different? up to now i ve used only the 7 and 8 irons
@@roadman1823 same swing different setup
Start right go right stay right according to ron del barrio.
Tom, surely a "stable axis" swing, can still be achieved, indeed always has bee wit great players, from the waist line UP, whilst, at the same, allowing the bottom half to at least pivot to the inside of the right foot and generate some leverage from resistance in the hips.....Also, every great player through time had the "impact" position you outline,(Golf My Way, 1974, page 17) but they did it with top and bottom halves working....not like this short-iron only swing"
Part 2 coming
Part 6. If Tiger comes in 8th place instead of win a tournament, Chamblee tells the audience that Tiger should go back to Butch, but has no comment when Phil hits it all over the map. Maybe Phil should go to Sean (or Grant and Joe). SnT used Grant in a lot of their training videos and I still haven't found a better swing to present the fundamentals of a stable axis golf swing. It is clear that more and Tour Players will also begin stablizing their swing as well. and Final conclusion...
Part 8. I was a tennis pro for 10 years before becoming a golf pro in 1991. Hitting off the back foot is the optimal way to hit a forehand. it is not for golf. The term, reverse weight shift has been around as long as the term conventional swing and long before we heard of S&T. It seems recreational golfers trying to learn the conventional swing, reverse-weight shifted a lot. A single axis is all about starting left, staying left and moving left. There is NO value in moving to the right.
Rory brought me here
Head center moving in front of the ball like he does on the way down would spook me. Waite does a lot very well, but straightening the right leg, then having to re-flex it seems like an awful lot of unnecessary movement to have to time. What are his distances with say an 8 iron?.
Pure and Simple Golf Swing i can just look at his swing and seeing how balanced, athletic and fluid it is, i'm sure he's carrying his 8 iron at least 150 yds. the pga average is 160.
+Pure and Simple Golf Swing Old Comment (1yr.) straightening right leg on backswing. If you've tried it I'm sure you found it's easy. All the best. Ira.
May be allowing the right leg to straighten is a better way of saying the same thing
Your point about the player's weight shift - slightly more weight being reserved on the leadfoot, eludes me?
I thought weight shift from backfoot, to frontfoot, actually increases power?
Surely it would lead to more powerful strikes and longer distance if the player actually shifted weight from backfoot, to frontfoot, at impact position?
The only way to gain the most powerful strike at the golf ball, is to achieve the greatest possible acceleration, at impact position? This is according to laws of physics as you mentioned yourself.
If you accelerate your entire body mass (the weight shifting motion) you will gain more powerful strike at the golf ball?
If you and I were to build a driving machine to create maximum club head speed, we might build in the movement of a weight shift and because it is a machine, we would achieve power, accuracy and consistency. BUT humans are not machines and they would not be able to repeat the same movement consistently. Now if the weight shift added 20 yards, we might decide it was worth the "inconsistency risk", but if the added shift only added 5 yards, but fairways missed went up 10%, we might not. I have not seen any actual test results that have proven or quantified the amount of added club head speed from having a slight weight shift towards the target. In a long drive contest, you only have to hit 1 out of 6 in the grid to win. In golf you have to play every shot.
+steelpanther88 I've found the spine tilt to the rear adds power.
There is no question that the majority of tour players shift a little to the right. There is no question that many of these players are big hitters. To the UN-scientific mind, they assume that one caused the other. Big hitters do a lot of things that create club head speed. Even when that player also does some things (like shift to the right) that either has not impact or even negative impact on speed, the net result is still a lot of speed.
I wonder one thing. Why is, with his statistics and results over the years, Grant Wait all of a sudden the rule model for the golf swing? No offence to anyone, just wondering;)
feffes- That flat stick and that gray matter between the ears has ruined many a great swingers careers. That doesn't mean they can't have a great swing that is worth emulating.
Thanks, Steven
You are right. The surgeon's patient doesn't need to know all the technical stuff, but they certainly want their surgeon to know it.
Have a great 2013.
I will be launching my new website soon - check it out
ontarget golf association (no spaces)
When left arm and shaft get in straight line relationship (radius of circle), wouldn't center of circle be left shoulder joint rather than head?
Puggy, you are correct the left shoulder joint is the center of the circle formed by the left arm radius. Before talking about the head being the center of the circle, I should have explained that the golf swing has multiple circles in play. The big circle with the arm and club as the radius has the shoulder as the center. And the smaller circle formed by the swinging of the spine has the head as the circle. Also there is the circle rotating around the right elbow. And the circle of the club rotating around the wrist. But back to your point, the low point of the big circle is the key and the shoulder is the center of that circle. Good point and observation. Thanks
And yet max Homs can win with a swing that is shoulder led from transition just like Mac and elk and Faldo all said in there books .
If your intentions are correct, your body will perform as it should without manipulation. There should be no conscious effort to swing with the larger muscles, your body is merely reacting to your intention to swing the club with your hands and arms.
I don't need to tell my body how to swish a stick fast and make it whip. It's only when I try to tell it what to do, it will not react as it should.
you are correct of course, but having someone read this correct statement for some reason doesn't produce the desired effect for most golfers. It's not enough to tell someone about a fundamental, we have to help them experience the fundamental.
Mox_au I disagree!...when learning to swing a golf club, it is not instinct for most people! it HAS to be learned...some lucky people are taught at a young age and it becomes hardwired into their mind and muscles...but, to learn golf at a later age, one MUST learn the fundamentals...they must learn to feel the swing...must learn and think about what they are doing..then, practice, practice practice! I began golfing at 55. I am now 57..I went from 120 to 85..with only two lessons..but, MUCH paying attention to you tube...I hope to be breaking 80 regularly within another year...but, I have put in the hours, the studying, the practice, the drills, etc...
Love the swing, but ... 19 minutes? Really?
Hint: Ben Hogan's legendary Ed Sullivan lesson is ONE minute
Sorry max homa
saying that "...traditional teaching puts the weight outside the right foot.". Anyone thank you again and, no disrespect to you, I look forward to a REAL video of a driver swing in S&T, traditional...or combinations thereof. Sincere best wishes
Sorry Tom but once again we see another S&T-promoting video where a short iron is used. Try this with a Driver ?. Nooooo! Angle of attack too steep and a golfer would need to lift his left side/head just before impact...This "weight forward/no hip resistance/close to Reverse pivot" swing does not work with longer clubs. Try telling a pitcher, tennis player etc. to stay on/keep weight over the leading foot all the time...still function but not wel.compared to "right side loading/hip resistance".
I think you've got it all wrong. You are talking about driving and hitting down on the ball etc, etc....
The reason he hits the ball so well and that he does appear to come through the ball is one, because he does point the left foot out allowing his hip to rotate more freely and two, that he is properly rotating through the moment of impact. All that other stuff is actually a byproduct of the proper rotation of the legs on the downswing. The left foot does nothing. You shouldn't be pushing off. It's along for the ride through impact. You also talk about weight percentages etc, etc. You can't hit the ball well focusing on "pushin" or driving. I tried for years. This only creates other issues mainly the impossiblibilty of consistency.
The bottom line is if your hips are rotated through, a flat "drag" of the club through the ball, not "down," results on a proper moment of impact and a divot after the ball. You won't be able to "scoop" or lift the ball past the moment of impact which so many amateurs do.
I think you are leading people down a path of frustration and not the proper way to hit a ball. Just one "student of the game"'s opinion. But I know it has changed my swing more dramatically than this explanation.