Is "Tragic Man" Guilty?
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- Опубликовано: 26 мар 2021
- The fallacy of deficit model thinking is that it ignores the fact that trauma generates rage that is turned against the self. The role of the sadistic superego in narcissistic disorders has been widely overlooked.
Dr Carveth, I’m currently training to get my doctorate in clinical psychology and your videos have contributed to my passion for psychoanalytic theory and clinical practice. They have been immeasurably useful for me, and it would have been a privilege to have been in one of your courses, although in some sense, it feels as if I have, given all the content you’ve released. Thank you for doing what you do. Your talks about Klein, Freud, and implications of the superego vs conscience have helped me greatly, especially in my practicum work right now doing psychotherapy with psychotic patients. I am feeling somewhat like a lone figure, given others in my program seem to disregard psychoanalytic practice in favor of the now-vogue cognitive therapies (many of which use concepts that bear striking similarity to psychoanalytic ideas!). I just thought I’d let you know the impact you’ve had on me, as well as my wife.
Thank you very much and best of luck in your training.
Hi, Hashim where are you doing a PhD with psychoanalysis?
Always a pleasure to see a new upload from you!
Guilty man. Guilt depression. Conflicts. Guilt. Tragic man. Emptiness depression. Blurry self.
The determinist. The existentialist. Nature. Nurture. Trauma. Rage turns on itself. Which on the outside looks like emptiness. The attacking superego. Some rule for all.
Provision. Vs. Self directed Aggression. Hostile Superego. The Attacking Superego. Self defenses against the attacking superego that manifest as Narcissism.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for the video. Great to hear this sort of wisdom.
Thank you.
Always a great pleasure to hear each of video lecture! Thank you Dr. Carveth for sharing this and for giving me an opportunity to listen and consider each of words. Best regards from Wroclaw (Poland)!.
You are most welcome
I am going back 0over your videos from the very beginning and the way you discuss Freud and his developmental approach to psychoanalysis is truly incredible , for those of us who still aspire to start or complete some form of psychoanalytic - pyschodynamic training or simply try to appreciate our own predicament as adults they are a great resource as well as being quite entertaining .
Thank you, Richard
I am not a psychotherapist; but, I think what you say in this video is 100% correct. I would only add that just as we can make tragic man into guilty man, because of the relationship between narcissism and the super ego, we can also change guilty man into tragic man. Instead of the guilt that guilty man feels, as he embodies the Imposter in an Imposter Syndrome, maybe guilty man can be made to feel the emptiness underneath being an imposter and regain some of his executive functioning; and thus allowing him to inhabit a fuller self...
Well I agree the guilty man is also tragic man.
@@doncarveth Furthermore, I suppose that a narcissistic injury, a damage to the narcissist’s image, could result in her becoming extremely critical. Extremely critical, say, without bounds. And this would ultimately result in a profound emptiness. Likewise, the guilty man, if sufficiently provided for, could rise up and assume authority over his own ego...
@@JoshBarzell Yes to the first part, but the second part is unclear
@@doncarveth OK, maybe it’s unclear because of splitting. I suspect that the recovery of the lost ego in guilty man’s life has to cross the splitting bridge, so to speak: He has to confront the fact that his ego has also split. And the recovery of the split ego, could then begin a discussion on his super ego. I think this is the way that Freud approached it. The super ego is drenched in the past, while the ego enjoys the present. Once she is sufficiently in the present can she be sure that she has found her healthy ego.
Thank you.
Superb lecture, Don! Wow.
Thank you, Racquel
Thank you
Can you do an analysis on David Goggins. He has become a symbol of someone who has embraced suffering. His book 'cant hurt me" is a best seller and appeals to a lot of young men. But I think you'd see something worth analysing in his psyche particularly the superego.
Thanks so much. The sadistic superego you described is consistent with what I see in depressed patients with suicidality. In terms of intervention, I try to help them understand that their rage turned against self is linked to their suicidality. Some express pure hate and rage towards their primary object but others seem unaware of their ambivalence or unwilling to go there. How important is it to explore their ambivalence towards their object?
Yes. It is important to help them become conscious of their ambivalence toward the object. But one must carefully assess their capacity to do this. Some patients cannot bear the guilt they feel for any hostility toward primary objects. The pressure to do so coming from the therapist cannot times drive them from the therapy. Timing and tact or essential here.
Very helpful. Thanks again! I could feel the resistance when talking around it. Important to give time and space and trust the process.
Thank you. Very interesting view and creates coherence to your previous videos regarding the role of conscience. So, basically, a Narcissist generating a Grandiose self, as a defence against aggression turned to himself,is something like a form of reaction formation?
But not all narcissists are inflated, some are deflated.
Yes, two kinds of depression. The first concerned with guilt and the second with shame. Shame depletes the self. In shame, all the good ánd bad is dispelled, leaving nothing behind. I would posit that guilt-depression has more to do with a modification of hate (turning against the self), while shame-depression more with the evasion of guilt over greed and lust. A denial, if you will. Guilt-depression would thus be more of a depressive position depression, while shame-depression more of a paranoid-schizoid depression. I see more patients of the latter kind. So, the superego in shame-depression punishes by depleting the self of both good and bad, hiding the id (greed and hate) from others so as to not having to feel guilty.
Not sure if all of this is correct, but this is how for I have gotten so far in practice...
No, anger, things don’t lineup that way. Shame is just a form of self persecution occurring in PS, not that different from persecutory guilt which also occurs in TS.
@@doncarveth Ah yes, I forgot about that! Thank you!
I've done this consciously. Around pandemic time where everything came to a halt. It seems to be a common response with many-sided embracing Munchausen response after some unnecessary isolation which was driven in the case of US by politicians who failed to disclose the origin of the virus because they had stake in the laboratory. I know these lectures are more intended for some who have a solid foundation in psychoanalytic theory but I'm genuinely curious what your recommendations are for someone that can barely breathe because all of the rage that has been turned inward.
Find a good, caring, psychoanalyst, or psychotherapist.
Great talk! Thank you for sharing that!
I have just one question: if it is the superego that is at the center of depression and if the attack from the outside is what makes the self-attack possible, how come that depression is not a relational condition?
In a very broad sense it is a relational condition, yes, but most people who call themselves relational psychoanalysts lose sight of the important rule of the super ego, the aggression that follows from trauma.
Thank you, Great lecture, I really appreciate your clear words explaining the different approaches in the field and focus on the function of the superego. I still have many questions about how to support Patients on their way to be less persecuted by the superego. How would you describe the basic procedere for it in the treatment? Do you mean the Kleinian approach moving from paranoid-schizoid Position to depressiv position? Thanks.
Innocence, yes. Drawing the patient’s attention to the difference between the PS superego and the D conscience, the former persecutory, the latter a moral compass. Supporting the patient in disempowering the super ego, modifying it to bring it into synch with conscience.
Thanks a lot!
Dr. Carveth, I request that you analyze this story; Nasty anecdote for Dostoevsky. Guilt and superego..!
What you said about the impact of parenting that is less than what we thought, really surprised me!!
So how could it be possible to define and emphasize on the role of the parents?
Especially for the patients!
Should we,as the Therapists, forget about the role of mothers as what Winnicott has presented in his theory?Or in the other point of view in Clein theory?
Thank for your attention..
My point is not that mothering and fathering don’t matter, but only that many other factors matter as well. Good parents sometimes have bad children and bad parents sometimes have good ones.
What do you think about Andre Greens negative, dead mother identifications? Doesn't this imply that there never was anything to begin with. That its the absence that defines the person. How would this like up with the super ego self persecution as the reason for the void?
I think greens work on “the dead mother” is valuable, but needs to be supplemented by the recognition that the maternal absence is tormenting and would generate rage which would then be turned on the self in the form of a hostile super ego.
@@doncarveth Yes, it hough that would be about where you stand. I like the simplicity of this model; frustration = anger. A child is egocentric, so the mothers absence is the child's fault. The absence is experienced as a deliberate punishment as the mother has all that the child needs, and denies it. The absent mother turns into a persecutory superego. Reunification with the mother becomes impossible because of paranoia. Child turns inwards.
I think the negative, the void.. is simply the lack of any real connection. There can not be any real meaningful connection to other people. That meaning can be only experienced by relating to other people. Gabor Mate used this metaphor of a tuning fork, that a mother and an infant should share this type of connection. That the lack of meaning is simply the lack of connection. That the superego does not necessarily even have to create the void, it simply has to make all meaningful relationships impossible. By constantly attacking the subject and the object. Much like borderlines do.
That you end up in this bubble, nothing comes out and nothing gets in. There can not be I if there is no you. No meaning no connection , no beginning no end, no separation of I and you.
What do you think of Ian Craib’s
work on the importance of disappointance? He was a sociologist and psychoanalyst. The Importance of Disappointment explores the nature of identity in late modern society. Ian Craib, a sociologist and a psychoanalytic psychotherapist, brings together the insights of both disciplines. He argues that "late modern" society seems to present new possibilities of living that are in fact illusions. We come to believe that we can create ourselves; that we have "rights" to aspects of life such as happiness, a "fulfilling relationship", parents who love us unconditionally; we come to believe that we can find a "real self" or alternately we believe that we can be anything that we want to be as the occasion arises. Psychoanalysis also gets caught up in these illusions: it offers ideals which are unrealisable, attempts to mould the personality in such a way that it fits late modern society. Paradoxically this reinforces the conditions which lead people to seek help in the first place. Against this, Craib points to the "negative" strands of psychoanalysis: Freud's insistence on "normal human misery", Klein's insistence on envy and the death instinct; Lacan's insistence on the fragmented nature of the self and the emphasis in British psychoanalysis on helplessness, dependence and paradox. His book draws on ideas that psychoanalytic therapy can become more than an ideology, offering genuine help to its patients and providing a real source of radical social criticism.
There is a great deal of truth in this.
Deeper into the dillema ...
I am struggling at the moment trying to understand the Quantum shift in psychoanalysis from Freudian models to the more inter subjective Pre- Oedipal work of Klein and Bion, it seems like a whole new world and they have touched on something much closer to the real epi-centre of the problem .
It also seems to hinge upon a deepening understanding of malignant or prolonged Protective Identification or the increasing power of the projection when the baby starts to get dramatically mis-atuned , out of synchrony with the Mother or there are periods of sensed abandonment hyper arousal and in sufficiently strong pyschic structures for self regulation ie eventual shutting down of the hypothalmic regulation .
It seems then as adults we have this tendency to transform and repress some of this early trauma by annihilating or fragmenting the images directly related to the memories but we maintain the affect which then gets transferred onto "objects" people we later sense are good fits for the original dynamic , as if as adults we saying subconsciously we desperately want to be whole again but are afraid to allow the repressed aspects , I am going to turn you into this "bad breast / Mother" because ewe need to see what is or rather was happening like warp in time , we no longer see eveen a person but a mnodified object in line with the negative affect .
We must then enage again in this form of more power full projection we must project them out into the object therapist ( negative countertransference) , patterns of doing this are built up over time in layers of increasing si sophistication and her e we have the dillema of blocked insight .
The theories and case studies of early Kleineans are so unwieldy and so tortuous as to make them allmost counterproductive , there must be a modifiable way of doing this , a more direct path , the early analysts of this persuasion seem to inundate the patients with too much information all most playing into the complex itself ,like an evasion of the direct effects of the PrId but a deeper appreciation of this theory of Projective Identification seems key .
Please read my comments : on Rune Fardal's concise explanation of Pr Id>>
ruclips.net/video/Nloftn8XJH0/видео.html
I am also intrigued by this man's work from the same institute :
ruclips.net/video/lY7XOu0yi-E/видео.html
The problem with this form of psychoanalysis :
It appears to me that if we are to spend a life time going around the houses , of complex interpretations being given to the patient that direct insight into the core or epic centre of his or her problem is missed , a lot of time is wasted and classically this would result in patients spending years in therapy , there must be adaptions to this methodology which would help catalyze a more efficient way enabling and promoting negative affect surfacing and generate clearer windows for insight into what for me is actually at the hidden core of the neurotic depressive position ( guilty man ?) .
That of huge fault lines corresponding to the infants first terrible appreciation that something was going desperately wrong , how to allow patients to touch on this and stay with this process without years and years of tortuous "intellectual" interchange developing more efficient , effective approaches which are less cognitively convoluted .
Thoughts please
Helpful links, thanks
So fascinating whilst I rather rudely went off to look at other stuff, dopamine addict ? Your podcast video IS so compelling i kewpt picking up little bits , really pulling your finger out Don lovely yes finally I couldn't agree more think you are really onto something trauma and rage remember with great fondness Annette ( metanoia trained ) and Robert co facilitator pulling us through work camps where the highlight was rage and anger , we didn';t just do the baseball bat thumping we all sat with our backs to the participant and big Robert urged us to loose it ,screaming shouting thumping I f..hate more power kill it , do it go on , some cried some screamed , a few reticent wobbled , what a time what an event and then to de brief and try to work it through , she said poignantly you'll never be the same it'll never fester again and it seldom ever does but I digress , YES rage is neurotically repressed by most people because as little children they couldn't get mad with ogre dad or in my case big ( critical and rather silently imposing ) Mum , since then I have occasionally let rip , logs and and at other events but that was truly groundbreaking , rage rage what does the poet say on into that dark night !
23:00 on...> I really now understand the progression narcissusm isn't prima face a real self , it is a compensation , a kind of adlerian twist to feeling utterly inferior , envious or jealous of others and thus boosting by self love one's own image as in the original Greek myth Echo his cohort hid in the wooodsw and could only repeat , that is it of course heor she l;ives in a self constructed paradise until of course life or others threaten it , also ther is them some distinction between the agressive rackety anger berne described and the more spontaneous "real" upsurge from a deepr space as if somethign had been thrreatened and we are back to primary traumas again .
Unfortunately the crater the bomb or the repeated insults caused was exacerbated by the introjected element i suppose cleaved off from the original carer , or other now internalized and somehow entangled with other self attacking elements becomes the vicious superego , I am again not sure of the distinction between superego and conscience as the Jews use utilized this form of internalized bullying to subjugate the masses , the wrath full god will destroy you , you have sinned and therefore will be punished expect it and so on , sounds to me like the root of the conscience too .
24:54 > spot on i think , often such types badly damaged have it turn belittled , bullied and agressed others most of their lives ,strangley the comedic defense is a classic one in narcissists as if they can on some level sense this absurdity but can't go there , they are often nihilists , the depression or dark night would utterly overwhelm them so they fear it , like they fear anyone or anything which reminds them of what they done to others for most of their f..lives , yes sadly i have to say American culture is full of them .
But we all have this small self I me , my small world , my views my opinions to some degree ,when feeling threatened or stressed we tend to cling to it but the true narcissist cannot hear or doesn't want to listen to anything that might unsettle it , worst of all that they cannot or don't really appreciate love or understand it ie that we must let go of this small self and allow space internally and others too impinge on us , for a relationship to develop , it hurts at times but if their is deeper sense of the other love will win through anyway .
Yes yes thank you so much the narcissism is about this superego , yes it has been lost site of because the current ego centrist culture we live in post modern era where self indulgent luxurious , independent self isolating style of life is seen as somehow normal , we are being pulled back by patronizing governments , draconian rules and the morphing of democrcay into toalitariansism , like us spoilt children .
Annette used the term in one group towards the end of the retreat , like omnipotent babies they all rounded on her because she made a really important point that unnerved the group sense , this regression back to narcissistic superficial behavior is something we all must watch , but classic narcissists are sad people , ever trying at best to be demigods , actors .
Its getting late need to work on my sleep , God Bless Don lets go deeper into the crater that dark foreboding place shall we ?
At 22:47 in this video you say: "We need a superego. We need to know the rules."
Is this a change in your thinking? I ask because, in your earlier video, titled "Demolition of the superego?", at 17:55 you say: "We don't need a superego to know the rules. The ego is perfectly capable of knowing them."
I agree with the latter. And I would add that it seems to me that we should produce and interpret the rules by the conscience, and not by the superego (which produces rigid, harsh and destructive rules, and interprets the good rules in a destructive way).
Yes, it is a change. Call leagues have helped me see that complete demolition or illumination of the super ego is unrealistic. There will always be some aggression turned back against the self and some internalization of cultural rules. Yes the eagle can know the rules but the rules will still be internalized into a super ego. So the goal now becomes the relative disempowerment of the super ego in favour of the conscience. The super ego needs to be subordinated to the conscience.
So we don't need a superego to know the rules (ego can know them), but it is inevitable that some rules are internalized into the superego? Sure, that makes sense. It would be ideal if we were all perfectly conscientious people, so that all the rules were internalized into the conscience, in which case some (rigid and immoral) rules would not be internalized, because conscience would not find them moral (but then again, if we were all perfectly conscientious, nobody would create those rigid and immoral rules in the first place!) But the fact is that all of us have at least some superego, all of our lives. So we naturally internalize some rigid and immoral rules into it. And the conflict between the superego and the conscience is a never-ending story. I think that, deep inside, we all know that conscience is right, and that the superego is just a pseudo-morallity. Still, we so often follow the latter, because it seems like the "easier way". But in reality, it is not. That's how I see it at this point. Sorry for the length of this post.
Loss of identity ！
Emptiness of self ！
I found a study from 1971. by the title "Conscience and superego: a key distinction."
The author is a catholic theologian, John W. Glaser.
I thought that you were the first to make the distinction between conscience and superego, so this came as a surprise. Are you familliar with that study?
I am by no means the first to make this distinction. Among others, Neville Simington discusses this. The distinction is implicit in the New Testament, especially in Saint Paul.
That's really interesting. Maybe you could make a video about this, explaining what influenced you to make that distinction and talking about these other people that had made that distinction before you? Because, some people might think that this is just your invention. I am really curious to hear more about the apostle Paul, because many people say that he was governed by his conscience while persecuting the early Christians. How did Paul explain the distinction in his writings? As a theologian, I am very much interested in this.
@@dejanpil4847 it is all laid out in my book “the still small voice“
So,
Superego = defence against conscience
Narcissism = defence against superego
Right?
Also, it seems to me that narcissism is more cowardly (and blameworthy) than superego, because it is a result of a more conscious effort. Superego is mostly unconscious and automatic, right?
I am afraid things are rather more complicated. You need to do some reading.
Sure. But superego is often a defence against conscience, and narcissism is very often a defence against superego, right?
@@dejanpil4847 true
Is the fact of experiencing trauma the problem or the fact of having turned the rage against the self ? Is there an alternative to doing what the narcissist did?
You seem to agree with the narcissist that we are bad.
Everyone is traumatized to some degree, and this generates anger and gets turned on the self, except for more psycho pathic people who turn it on others. Everyone is bad to some degree. Some people are very bad.
@@doncarveth Thank you but you are not answering my question. The way you handle narcissism is extremely violent. I am directly concerned. I struggle with feeling of being 'evil' for having turned my rage against myself from babyhood on and punishing myself while not understanding a damn thing. Now, you give no kind of explanation that would humanize such choices.
Primary psychopaths are hardly traumatizable. Those who fail to gain a moral compass become con-men. White collar crimhnals are very unlikely to be narcissists but rather grandiose ASPDs.
Narcissists are too dependent on how others see them.
Not that I want to throw them under the bus.
Now if your view on narcissism is a moral one as it seems to be, since you mention good parents having 'bad' children, you need to expand on such a view. It is a serious issue.
You should outrule other possibilities.
You are disqualifying
There is not one once of empathy in your tone and content. I would not buy anything that would be self-comlacent.
If anything, I am more genuine than a lot of people.
So my question was. What other option did I have than turning my rage against myself?
I watched some other videos in which you talk about narcissism. It always resonates as some form of deviance, such asbeing too proud to let go of the omnipotent self.
I hope I won't be ghosted and will provide a straightforward reply.
@@ThreetwoOne-wu7ye I hear you. Your points or were thinking about.
@@doncarveth are you dyslexic?
Legally blind, and using voice to text