The segment of him speaking about the ache of just wanting to hold someone’s hand and how he knows he’d be an amazing partner - pissed me off - I hurt for him, because I know that same ache. I respect his conviction and decision to live in a way that resonates with him - but the rhetoric of the heteronormative standard of partnership, especially in a church context, that only straight people can have someone to love and a hand to hold, is bullshit. My deepest hope is that he can one day feel the peace in himself to deem himself worthy of romantic love, and to have someone gaze into his soul, hold him with loving arms and call him beautiful…on this side of Heaven. Another great episode guys - So grateful for this podcast and the diverse stories of so many people you all are highlighting. Truly a gift. 💝
Seriously. It took me being in a loving relationship with another man to realise - this is pure. It's not perveted or disgusting - it's the same love a man and women can have together and everyone should be entitled to that, because it's a wonderful experience to have in life, and is woven in our biology to need that kind of connection.
❤ I always wonder,If God created me as a Gay man, why would He make me reject my being complete as a human? Friendships can provide only a partial fulfillment in relating to another. There is much greater aspects of having unity with one person, physically/sexually is/will become a quite minor part of any committed relationship. I wonder how many celibate Gays are only giving in as pressured responses to be accepted by the Church/Straight groups. Many people state, It’s okay to be Gay as long as one does not act upon it. The Bible teaches that it is better to marry than to commit sexual lust and imagination in one’s heart. Celibacy is for some a calling, just as it is for straight people. But that is not the majority of people. I feel condemned when many, if not most, people are promoting celibacy for Gays to be acceptable.
@@denniso.shepherd6699the point is that he is not choosing to be celibate because others are pressuring him into it, but because of his own personal spiritual convictions and readings of the bible. Why shouldn't his choice be respected? There is no reason not to.
@@absolutelypitiful3837 I am not saying his choice is incorrect for him. I am stating the fact that it seems most people are accepting only of those who choose to be celibate. I've been told I can be part of a church, but because I am Gay, I cannot even participate in the Worship Team, let alone, a more major aspect of ministering through the church. However, many who are in committed relationships cannot be leaders. That forces celibacy on those who desire companionship in order to be a leader.
@@absolutelypitiful3837 There is beauty in his conviction but you HAVE to acknowledge that this celibacy is not the norm for people who have desire in such a manner. If he can configure his existence in a celibate manner, more power to him. But just like many Christians believe we are simpyl.giving into carnal desires to be openly homosexual, we gays can acknowledge that denial of one's true, pure desires is a very fraught task.
This episode broke my heart. Conor said he struggles every single day to make the choice to be celibate. He's 29 years old, he may well live another 60 years. I cannot imagine the pain of commiting to perhaps that number of years of celibacy at such a young age (I am younger than Conor myself). To know you have to live your entire life without ever once having someone special, not even hold someone's hand, even with all the potential and desire that Conor specifically has, is an idea that just saddens me beyond belief. Conor said being single means he has the time to give more to his friends and his church, that that is the gift of celibacy. But are either his friends or his church able to love him (not just in a vague sense) in a whole sort of way? Would they give him the same amount of time he gives them? Would they sacrifice the amount he would? His friends who have partners will prioritise their partner over him, the church is a type of organisation so to speak, and organisations cannot love an individual on an individual basis. And what even is love? At the end of the day, when the Church bars its doors and the pastors and friends go home for the night, they have someone to go home to, and Conor goes to an empty home. Sure, he may be invited here and there. But without that, his home is a place where he is alone. It sounds to me as though there is a dynamic of pity between Conor and his social group and Church. They pity him and they have these conversations about his sexuality with him as a pitiful gesture of goodwill. But they will never change. It seems so unfair that everyone in Conor's life is able to enjoy every type and shade of love that exists, but Conor is denying himself those beautiful array of shades. For how many years will he be able to conjure deep and meaningful happiness for other people's happiness and other people's relationships, at the very denial of his own? The bottom line is, you can be happy and loving of other people's marriages and relationships, but it isn't your marriage or your relationship. It's like when you watch a movie or a show. When you switch the TV off, those characters and their relationships sieze to exist, and your emotions for them eventually fade until you switch the TV back on. When you're with someone you love, the TV is always on. Conor said he wants to live this life, that he has chosen it. But he also said he does NOT want it (not explicitly, but it can be inferred). He said it hurts so much. He said the pain has led him down to a path of pornography addictions and other things in the past. Maybe we are seeing Conor now in a very good time of his life, where he is able to bear the pain and function well. But what if something were to happen - a terrible life event or something - and the pain of his life in general were to break him and he'd have nobody to lean on in that ultimate intimate sense? I don't doubt he'd have Jesus to lean on, but his concept of Jesus exists only in his mind. Jesus cannot give him practical help. Jesus can't cook him a meal and leave it on the doorstep, he can't work through a problem together in the kitchen. What if he were to suffer a traumatic brain injury or something and his mind was no longer able to conceive ideas or concepts or think or pray to Jesus? What would be left? Sure, a Church group may be able to offer help, but ANY social group, religious or not, will be able to offer help. And an alternative social group wouldn't encourage (whether outwardly or implicitly) Conor to deny himself a relationship. At the end of the day, Conor said this choice has come from an introspective process into his own heart, but his heart will be full of the beliefs that were shaped in a certain way because of his background, environment, upbringing etc. So in essence, I feel like I've just watched a self fulfilling prophecy play itself out. Even if Conor can't think of any particular person or Church that has forced him into making this choice, that does not mean there are not deeply unconscious fears and worries he is surpressing, that may have been internalised many years ago when his mind was busy making interpretations of his environment. You do not always need an explicit statement (i.e. a pastor reading out in Church 'gays will go to hell') in order to behave as if one has been made. And then your mind will do the rest in creating a narrative and justification that allows you to hide the suppressed emotion (i.e. 'Oh I'm doing good as I am not commiting sin' or 'I must humble myself unto the Lord because I am a sinner and He is perfect, who am I to know what I really want?'). Humans read between lines and pick up on cues. We gather information from social cues all throughout our lives, and we develop beliefs from them that we adhere to because they keep us safe in the environments in which we exist. I truly believe that if Conor had been born in a different place, he would instead be a gay man pursuing a relationship, because the cues in his environment would have been totally different and shaped a different outlook. Religious beliefs are circumstantial (e.g. had he been born in an Amazonian Tribe, he'd believe something else). Sexuality isn't. It breaks my heart. I really hope Conor may gradually see things differently. There is a beautiful and loving man out there for Conor, who is never going to be with him, because of this whole situation. There could have been a different destiny that will never play out. And he even said himself he knows he would be a good partner and has a lot of love to give. At the end of the podcast you asked Conor what advice he would give to others, and though I haven't been asked, I want to give some advice to Conor - give it Conor. Give your love. Please, give it. And I don't mean to your friends or your Church. You already do this. Give your love in that way you really wish you could. You could make a man the happiest man in the world.
This comment has touched my Soul.. 🌹 You have so eloquently described your thoughts and feelings, it has been absolutely beautiful to read. Words don’t do justice. Even though you have written it as a response to this video, your words reach far beyond that. Thank you for sharing, it has touched me deeply ❤️
@@SoNiels I didn't expect anyone to reply to my comment, let alone with such beautiful and praiseful words. Thank you so much for reaching out to me just to say that. It made me feel very happy. Best of luck SoNiels!
@@bookers2583 You’re more than welcome. You are definitely gifted in writing from your heart, and have an advanced, perceptive mental and analytical capacity. Wishing you the best as well 🌹
Hopefully, he'll meet someone who is enough to break through the idea that he has to be alone. It makes me crazy that someone would think they have to be celibate on purpose.
I respect Conor's perspective. I, too, knew I was different at age 5 or 6, although I never knew what gay was at the time. I struggled with my faith and being gay in my late teens and early 20s. I, too, tried to unalive myself, and eventually, I went to counselling, where I first admitted to another person that I was gay. After that, we diverged on the path. I decided to leave the Catholic Church. I eventually reconciled my faith with being gay, but I dated and eventually married my partner. Unfortunately, he passed away from cancer, so I have been alone since then.
I'm a 67 yr old gay man who grew up in a faith base home who knew I was different then my brother. The first encounter with a gay person was at age 20 and was interduce to the LGB Community I never align with them so I stepped away. I focused on myself, education, saving, investing but did meet my first we were together 20yrs he also came from a faith base home. Unfortunately we grew apart and a yr later my present walked into my life who also was from a faith based home. We now have been together 23 yrs but being gay is only a small part of who we are and the least interesting thing about us. Our Values, Conduct, Achievements are who we are and more interesting thing to talk about. Our friends are just a handful that is not needy or toxic for we both feel the gay community doesn't share the same values. And having a faith based raising contribute to that and is a blessing thankful for, we recognize and share with others to this day.
I know Conor and he’s as loving, humble and genuine as he came across in this conversation. Fair play to you guys for having him on. Also, please don’t send Joel Osteen to Northern Ireland lol, we have our own problems
I am glad to see affirming folk including the voice of celibate gays but it makes my heart hurt there are so many young people going hat way who are gay. And as a person of faith who always felt confident that God welcomed gay love and that that was a church problem not a God problem,
I am NOT GLAD to see these podcasters share this perspective without condemning its origins and its harmful nature. It is hurtful and not okay, and I do not support encouraging celibacy for people who are gay simply because they are gay. Yes, these people’s voices matter, but their stories need to be shared in a context where their beliefs are not condoned and where the manipulation and abusive teachings of the church are highlighted.
@@lyssasletters3232that is… not it, sis. That is such a malicious and oppressive angle to take on the issue. I trust that was not your intention, but that’s why I wanted to say something. I think the beauty of this video is that it offers another point of view without forcing either side as being the correct one. I assume you watched the video, and look at that, you still believe what you believed and I still believe what I believe. To put a clear negative spin on someone’s story and life choice is to in a way silence them and to minimize the strength it took not only to make the choice, but to share their story. You can have your gripes with the church and whatnot. But please do not undermine the choice that I have made for myself, and the choice that other brave men and women have made.
@ I want to start off by saying that you are right that we should not silence the voices of those who are oppressed. Although you and I seem to disagree about the source of malice and oppression in this case (which I believe to be the church’s stance on homosexuality), I think we can both agree that it is harmful to invalidate a human being’s physical and emotional desires and sensations. Experiences of sexual attraction or not feeling sexual attraction are not within our conscious control, so I am in favor of validating those experiences. On the other hand, no human that experiences sexual attraction is born with an innate desire for celibacy (with the exception of those on the asexual spectrum and those with little to no libido). I am not interested in invalidating anyone’s emotional or physical experience but rather want to challenge belief structures that I see to be harmful. Sounds like you value hearing people’s stories about sexuality and faith, as do I. Have you watched any of this man’s content or any videos from the Mormon Stories podcast about LGBTQ experiences within their church? ruclips.net/video/jSq3S51fboM/видео.htmlsi=1PsfekhmMElGztuE My wish for you and for everyone in the church who identifies as LGBTQ+ is safety, first and foremost. I also wish for you to feel supported and valued, and I can see that my comment caused you discomfort by highlighting the ways the church does not support or value it’s LGBTQ+ members unless those members choose not to act on their natural desires. That is a form of coercive control. If someone were to tell you, “you can only get xyz (security, love, belonging) if you do abc (not have sex with the people to whom you feel attraction),” that choice is based in coercion. I believe that when we share the voices of oppressed people, we have a responsibility to also share the context in which their beliefs developed and how systems of oppression are responsible for perpetuating suffering. If there is a kinder, gentler way that I can phrase these criticisms of the church so that my comments do not cause LGBTQ+ church members shame or hurt, please let me know.
@@lyssasletters3232 Hey! Thank you for your thoughtful and considerate response. I think it is admirable to question things that do not seem right. I’ve been on that journey myself! By now, you probably see how long this response is. I apologize. I tried to break this into “sections” to help make it less overwhelming. II I will definitely check out the man’s content-or at least the video you linked. I’m not super knowledgeable on Mormonism, but I do know that I do not agree with a LOT of stuff they believe. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. III You seem very passionate, and I don’t want to dampen that passion by telling you how to word your arguments. Instead, I want to offer a perspective. And I welcome you to engage with it, but only if you want to. This way, your words are still your own, but they also take into account experiences like mine. I want to try summarizing my own journey for you, and I’ll try to keep it brief, but I also want to try to be thorough. If you have any questions or thoughts, I would love to know! And regardless of how you respond, if you respond, I hope it at least explains why I originally responded the way I did. IV Evaluating every side of the argument on homosexuality is actually how I ended up making my decision to be celibate. It was a decision I made for myself. However, I think it’s also fair to point out that not everyone makes the decision for themselves. I think the distinguishing factor here is the motivation behind choosing singleness. Some people, as you might say, probably do it because that’s what they’ve been told to do. And while they set their mind to it, their heart may not be so inclined, and this is because the choice was ultimately not theirs. It was forced on them. And in any case, when your heart isn’t all in, ANYTHING can become unbearable. I think this is why celibacy sometimes falls through, and why it’s so easy to resent religion for it - but that is just speculation, and I want to be careful and sensitive about that. V I tried to be in a relationship once. And when I was too young to care about traditional values, I gave in to the curiosity to have my first physical experience with another guy. I didn’t feel too bad about it in the moment. I felt mostly excited, like I had finally lived, but I also felt like I had gone against my own personal beliefs-and not the church’s beliefs, because at that point I had given up on the church. My personal conviction was that a relationship was perfectly fine, but I didn’t want to be physically intimate. I was always weird about that, even after I walked away from the church, when I was just trying to be my own person. But I did it as a way to prove I was not bound by what I was raised to believe. And although it was thrilling, I started to see my partner differently and not in a good way. If I had made the truly liberating decision, both my head and heart had a cruel and haunting way of indicating it. VI Long story short, I studied different perspectives, and when I leaned in one direction, I thought deeply about it. I wasn’t even really in the church when I made the decision to be celibate. I was just starting to reconstruct my faith, and oddly, my decision is actually what led me to the traditional denomination of Catholicism - not the other way around. VII I had heard many unkind words when I was younger, when I was nondenominational - but the words were not directly aimed at me. I managed to hide it back then. All this to say, I really appreciate your concern for the safety of people who have struggled with the church. It’s good that you are concerned. I think you have a very compassionate heart, and I admire that! VIII While I was an undergrad - at a Christian school - I experienced mostly support from others. I met people who may not relate entirely to my experience, but who understand that everyone struggles with something in their lives, and that the purpose of fellowship, and community at large, is to support one another no matter their struggle. I never felt invalidated or anything like that. No one ever gave me a reason to feel that way. In fact, it’s likely because people understood that my feelings and desires were valid that they wanted to support me in the first place. I even had some of the sweetest professors, traditional ones at that, who promised to voice their support if anyone ever gave me a hard time about my orientation, and this truly touched me. I have recently been given the privilege of being an honorary “uncle” to the baby of my Catholic best friend, and I have never felt so loved by someone who wasn’t my immediate family-and she was the first college peer I officially came out to. IX I could go on forever, and try to explain my position more, but I feel like this response is already WAY TOO LONG. And I’d like to give you a chance to move the conversation along if you want to. Again, I thank you for your response, and for your willingness to actually discuss this a little. My goal is not to change your mind about anything, but rather to help you see where I am coming from, and why I don’t believe every case like mine is a result of oppressive religion. I don’t deny that there are cases like this, but I promise that mine wasn’t, and I’m sure there are many other cases like mine. I was moved by the compassion of the church, and I followed my faith, which just happened to align with the Church’s beliefs.
I keep coming back to this video. Having been in ministry myself -- what is wrong with the minister of this man's church. This young man is believing in the scripture in a way few if any of his other congregants do and I suspect the minister does not himself. When in college I wrote about how the church makes liers of gay people and that makes it easier to get us to hate ourselves, but it is not that they want us to fail but they need us so we can be their priestly class the one group of people in their congregations that are following the scripture when it comes to sex -- even if we would fall we at least would be so mortified. This video makes my soul ache and grown to God.
Really helpful to hear Conor's story even if i stand in a little bit of different place. I used to be in his position and have changed somewhat over the years but I am so in support of people being free to live according to their own convictions when it comes to this topic. Hope he can find relationship and flourishing whatever life brings him.
He believes that being gay is not a sin, but acting on those desires and inclinations is. As a result, he has chosen to embrace suffering in order to preserve and honor his relationship with God. In his acceptance of singleness, he has found that God has blessed him with close friends and family, providing him with life-giving relationships. His functional theology works for him at present, but only time will tell if it remains effective in the future, especially if he meets someone who fits his type and that person shows interest in him.
What I ask myself is not how you can be gay and Christian, but how can be gay and Christian and human. I was gay and Christian for years. What was missing was the genuine humanness, until, after many years, I found a partner (also a Christian), with whom I shared a truly loving relationship. That is what finally made me, in addition to being gay and Christian, also a genuine human being. I don't know whether you can understand this, but it is so. Maybe not everybody needs an intimate, loving human relationship to make them fully human, but I did.
Can't say hats off enough to you guys.💜you're all such beautiful people. Thank you for having this conversation where the 'two' sides are rarely allowed to come together without it being horrible.💜 This was awesome.💜 An amazing example of humans.💜 Thank you so much.✨💜💜💜.✨💞
I’m so glad that there is another man who is speaking about this. This is something I feel strongly about. I see a lot of comments who don’t want to accept this choice. It was a painful realization for me too. I’ve been a hopeless romantic all my life, and when I made this decision, I was crushed. But at that time, I was also starting to take my faith seriously. One thing had to give, and I refused to choose myself over my Creator. But I didn’t choose to be celibate because other people told me to. In fact, I thought about it before I knew it was even an answer to my orientation-same way I realized I was gay before knowing what it was. I made the choice on my own, based on what I learned about marriage and what I learned about my orientation. It hurts ALL the time. I relate SO much to this man’s struggle. But for me, it is a cross to bear-everyone has one, and this just happened to be mine. It will probably continue to be a struggle for a while, but somehow this decision also brought me so much peace. It’s hard to explain. I appreciate the intentions behind the sympathetic comments, but they do hurt a bit. This decision often cannot be reduced to “personal conviction” or what resonates with me as an individual. If it were truly up to that, I would 100% get married to a man who could grow old with me. I love point this man makes on how singleness is often preached, and who preaches it. This is why I love that this man is speaking on it, he knows the struggle, but his theology seems quite sound. I’m on my journey to Catholicism, so I know there may be some differences in the details of our decision, but the principle is the same. The woman hits it on the head when she mentions the great things that can be done by single people. Having single men and women-priests and religious people-be my spiritual leaders definitely helps me. I also feel like there are some professions that are not as compatible with marriage and family as others. She also makes a great point about the LACK of celebration of celibacy. Marriage is so often imposed on people from a young age. Culture almost treats celibacy as a sign that someone has failed somewhere in life. It’s just unfair. I wish this man the best! And I appreciate this channel for letting him share his story.
‘I refused to choose myself over my Creator’ This is incredibly powerful Dani. Thank you for sharing a bit of your story. I’ll be praying for you as you continue to navigate your journey, and that you’ll experience some joy along the way, amidst the inevitable pain & challenge
I am sorry if such statements hurt but they are expressions of Faithfull christian belief just as the guests own honest statement that he feels it is a sin to have two men marry and how he hopes to offer a winsome example to gay folks he interacts with that they also might some day commit in a manaer like he has done. I believe that God made people to be in community and I believe that modern society has few modes that offer the kind of lifetime intimacy and deep care and support of one another that we need to survive and thrive and for getter or w3orse one of the few remaining social bonds that has a chance of lasting and operating in a deep way is the marriage relationship and so for someone who does not want or feel gifted with singleness to pursue it in this world is to frestrate your life beyond what scripture and hesus mandate and counceled us to do. Also I challenge that there is a certain arrogance in holding to such an unrealistic personal sexual standard not simply because it pushes past what Jesus demands as far as chastity - he and Paul both counsel those who desire tio have a sexual union to do so rather than burn and atempt to live in a way that is not what they where specially called and equiped to endure. The bible even provides models of male intimate love and while marriage is not the only social configuration that could have developed to allow thopsee so inclined to turn to to express their llove and sexual nature while also modeling christian faithfuillness but however we today decide to institutionalize such unions of same sex persons to forbid them based on the hard hartedness or limited imagination or awareness of those livingh in the fiurst century would be a failure to interpret and appluy scripture in a way that was credibl;e and certaiinly not in a way that was consistant. So as he wishes for married gays a deeper understanding I pray for him less shame over the grace of the gospel and greater ownership of the priviledge but the duty to exercise the churches gidt of binding and looseing in relation to the moral imparative that has tested the church in our generation.
@@ryr1974 Hey there. I want to begin by thanking you for your response. You raise some interesting points, though admittedly, some were hard to follow. One thing I agree with is that community is super important. That’s undeniable. We were designed for community. But I disagree with the idea that marriage is the only way to experience a lasting and deep relationship. It’s a special kind of relationship for sure. But I don’t think it’s good to reduce marriage to its benefits. Marriage is a vocation, and not one to take lightly. I want to take the time to address the other points you made. In order to do that. I will need to respond a few more times, because it will take a lot of space. In fact I have already written a response-not just to your points, but to the perspective you hold. I want to do this because I understand where you come from because I used to hold the same position on this issue. I am very familiar with some of the points you made in your response. But I am also familiar with some counter arguments, ones I found much more convincing and consistent with the Christian standards of goodness and truth. So, below this comment, there will be a series of reflective responses. Anyone is free to read them. I am doing this because I have faith in people. Especially people who even care to question what is right. I also want to take a page from Socrates’ book and be a gadfly, because I like to hold onto my hope that people are still willing to put the work into being the best version of themselves, regardless of how they believe they can accomplish that. I don’t expect many to read what I have to say. I honestly don’t expect anyone to. But I would rather say something and risk not being heard than keep my thoughts to myself when someone may genuinely be interested in them. With that, I end this comment, and begin this reflective “essay” I have written for anyone who cares to regard it. :)
---- Intro ---- I read books and watched films from people who turned to the revisionist perspective because of the hurt they experienced, and after recognizing they had the freedom to do what they felt was right. I read their arguments, their theories, and their exegeses, and I leaned into it for a while. But it just wasn’t convincing enough to be the end of my search for truth. I still feel for everyone who holds the revisionist position, because I once wanted to hold the position myself. But I felt disappointed by it. It felt too easy, if not a bit dishonest compared to other perspectives. I do not mean to be antagonistic by saying this either. It is just an honest observation. My arrogance on the matter died when I decided to stop believing that the fallible opinions of men, including mine, could ever be treated as a substitute for what God’s word says. To say that it is arrogant to lower my position of authority on the matter is a bit contradictory. I want to challenge anyone who reads this to consider a few really important questions before they proceed. First, what is truth? Second, what does it mean to be a Christian? Third, why should a Christian care if another Christian believes differently about a given subject? Although the pressing matter here is sexuality, these general questions apply to matters beyond it-arguably, every matter there is. The answers to these questions are far more intimately connected to our discussion on sexuality than one may think at first, and they also connect to each other quite well. -------- On Truth: What is truth? -------- If we want to take God the Father and Christ the Son seriously, we must readily accept that there is only ONE truth. God’s truth. This means that only one of our perspectives inspired by God’s word can be true, and the other one would HAVE to be false. It is undeniably fallacious to conclude that the two perspectives on homosexuality can be accepted as truth, because the two perspectives themselves offer different and even contrasting truth claims. ----------- To be a Christian: What does it mean? ----------- To put it simply, to be a Christian is to follow Christ’s example as closely as possible, and to live according to his teachings as well as we can. This encompasses EVERY moral issue we may face in life-the popular Christian phrase, “What would Jesus do?” captures this idea, but it also cheapens it in my opinion. Furthermore, and to keep it simple, this is also what holiness is. This word, holiness, often causes discomfort. Some automatically assume that holiness makes someone better than others, but this couldn’t be further from the truth. Holiness is a lifelong process for everyone until eternal life begins, and it is arguably an equalizer of all people. ------------ Culminating Argument ------------ Now, I have built up to one of my main points. If holiness is following Christ’s example and teachings-and if this is a defining characteristic of Christian life-then we must know with certainty what Christ exemplified and what he taught. There should be no ambiguity, otherwise we are not actually certain. And there should be no irreconcilable contradictions among us, otherwise one side unknowingly admits that God’s truth is not the Truth, and that His truth merely serves as a basis for Truth. For the faithful Christian, the Truth is what Christ lived and preached, and what God said through his followers-including Old Testament writers-that is the Truth with a capital T. ------- Conclusion 1 ------- Therefore, and I say this with utmost respect for those who do not share my perspective: One cannot aim to alter the message or meaning of God’s word or Christ’s teachings and still claim to be a faithful Christian. And my criticism on reinterpreting God’s word goes both ways-so this also applies to the radical traditional congregants who still believe that my orientation is a choice, or that I need to be converted sexually-because neither the Bible nor empirical evidence suggests that this is true. Christ himself said: “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass until the law is accomplished. Therefore whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:18-19). This is after Christ lists the beatitudes, but ALSO after he clarifies that he came to fulfil the law (of the Old Testament) and not to abolish it. And this is before he revisits the moral law of the Old Testament. I mention the Old Testament because it is an important consideration for our discussion here. We’ll come back to it soon!
That’s totally ok! We’re having occasional conversations with different perspectives but we absolutely know that could be triggering for a lot of people, and if you need to skip it that’s ok. I hope that you’re feeling alright, I know there’s a lot going on right now! Take care of yourself ❤
Hmm I wonder if queer platonic relationships are something that might be an option for religious people considering celibacy. I mean not getting too much in the weeds here, but I am aromantic myself (asexual is someone who has little to no sexual attraction; aromantic is someone who has little to no romantic attraction). There are many people who are aromantic or asexual (or both) who choose not to have a partner at all. Then there are others who still want to have a relationship, but still being true to themselves as aromantic or asexual people. We use the term queer platonic relationship (QPR). The basic idea is just that it's a relationship where the people in the relationship can set the fundamental rules of the relationship. Like for example two asexual people enter into a relationship and acknowledge that they want to be partners and life and maybe have children and go to each other's work events together, but choose not to have sex and maybe choose not to live in the same space. Again, this is just an example but you can kind of mix and match the fundamentals of the relationship with your partner. I feel like I kind of got in the weeds there, but the conversation just made me think about queer platonic relationships a bit.
The beauty of coming to the table (or in this case the comment section) as a learner and not a teacher. Thanks for sharing this - I’m definitely going to explore more around this
I think this is something that Bridget Eileen Rivera has modelled for queer people - she is on the celibacy side of things but had a platonic partner I believe and has written an amazing book about harm of queer people in the church
Thanks so much for having me on guys - it was a real blessing My hope & prayer is that it challenges others, maybe starts a conversation & ultimately helps those who may grapple with the same hurts & pains that I have For those who are grappling in the same ways - we are all in the trenches together! It’s tough, but let’s never stop giving it all over to God, each and everyday, asking for more of His strength & His guidance as we navigate this tension
You can also get support from "people" who love you and support you the way you are. As a gay man, you need to be honest with yourself. You should live the life you want and do not let others tell you who to love amd how to live your life. Life is short and celibacy is not a good idea. Humans need intimacy with other humans and trying to be celibate is not the way to go.
@ I’m glad you’ve had the chance to engage with what Nate & Susie are doing - it’s a great podcast! Let me respectfully challenge you on one thing you say. This is the life I want to live. I haven’t been forced to live this way, and these choices I am making are from within my own heart. I experience great joy in this journey alongside the harder days All the best brother. We’re all navigating something tricky; let’s pray for one another as we cast our minds Heavenward and ask God for His Spirit to help us along the way!
Hi Conor. I really appreciate you speaking about this. I’m from East Belfast so it was nice to hear a familiar accent. I’m 24 and have struggled with this for many years. I resonated with a lot of what you said. You’ve given me a lot of hope, especially knowing we’re from a similar background (Presbyterian upbringing too). Would there be a way I could reach out to you? Thanks, Alex.
Lol I am also an identical twin. We both turned out gay 😂. A miss matched set is funny. I wish he was in the States. He would be great to have in the msu twin study.
Also Susie I’m sure you hear this all the time, and I am EXTREMELY married and monogamous so no funny business intended, but you are so strikingly beautiful! Your dance card would be full in the lesbian/bi dating world if you decided to do that.
At the beginning of this podcast the male host says a term that sounds like 'psy-b' or 'sci-b'. I am not familiar with that term. Can you clarify what you're saying there?
Being celibate (single) in your 20s and 30s is one thing. Being celibate (single) in your 40s and 50s and 60s is a whole different ball-game. Whatever the advantages of celibacy under 40 may be, they are gone after 40, and it becomes many, many times more difficult. The Irish gentleman, if he remains celibate, has a very unpleasant shock and a very cruel struggle in store.
Hey, it’s the ‘Irish gentleman’ here! I guess the outlook for the next 20-30 years are looking pretty bleak anyways, what, with all the war, global warming & political unrest. What a joy to know God’s still going to be on the throne in 2054 and beyond! Seriously though… I don’t doubt that the journey ahead won’t be super tough. But what I also don’t doubt is that God will continue to bless me, encourage me and give me daily the confidence & strength to say no to sin & yes to Him God bless brother!
@@conorpatt0n1 Thank you for responding. I am sixty eight years old so I know what I am talking about. My advice is, if you are gay, establish a meaningful, long-term relationship with another gay man who is a Christian. The relationship does not have to be sexual if that is not what you want, or if you believe that God forbids it. But have the relationship and stick together. Being gay, single and alone past the age of 40 or 50 is not what you want. Please believe me. God bless you.
Just throwing this out there. This lecture from a German theologian and former dean of an evangelical bible college called "The Gay Question" really helped me. He argues strongly that it's okay to be gay and addresses each scripture passage that seems to condemn homosexuality. This is a version with English subtitles. ruclips.net/video/az8h8bgEku8/видео.html
I thought this was good. It's interesting to hear another perspective. I'm side A but I am always open to listening to other opinions and beliefs. I liked the convo. It's different to challenge ideas and beliefs. Personally I do feel if he finds the one it could change all that. It's how it worked for me. But I thought what he had a good interview.
I think the beauty of this ‘interview’ is that it wasn’t an interview at all! Just 3 people who are doing life from slightly different angles, coming together to think that out with one another. Being open to listening other opinions & beliefs is so so vital - thank you!
Im gay and celibate and part of it is due to my faith. I am not a persons biggest fantasy anyway so ill be single lol. I think alot of people need to be single
45:33 A wedding is to celebrate a couple that loves eachother. It's okay to _not_ tell them *before or after* that they are wrong in wanting to commit to being a married couple.
Question… in the first clip.. were you in Sacramento by any chance…? Love your humble humility… In fact, Nate.. the first time I encountered you was around Oct 7th of last year when I was confronted with the hypocrisy of the church and the inconsistency of the church’s ideals and I saw one tik tok of yours and I deep dived in after that one video… the humility, the openness and lack of defensiveness SCREAMED Jesus… just thought I’d convey that.. blessings to you both.
It almost makes me think the church coiled help someone like him, by rejecting him all together so he doesn't spend his life commuting to a call that is denying him whit he dearly wants and as he said would be good at. God
It's fine. It's not like he's in for an unfulfilling life being single. I'm just 99.99% sure if there is a loving God he doesn't care about the sex of who you sleep with.
It’s my honour to have met Conor a number of times but it would be just as an acquaintance to nod at in passing and I can honestly say I have gained such insight and such a deeper respect for him. I am inspired to do better and try harder. God bless you Conor and your witness
Jesus warns about being lukewarm in the book of revelations and he abhors it. This man has one foot in the church and one foot outside. Lukewarm. If you "choose" to be a christian its a commitment and work you must do each day. Its not an easy walk that why jesus stated to "count the cost" because many would not complete that lifestyle.
Respectfully disagree. To my mind he has chosen a path that requires more than a little faith and reliance on God. Anyone who has studied the word alongside him could never describe him as lukewarm. He describes wrestling with temptation which is a struggle every Christian goes through. He has been open about his struggle, which is brave and faithful. Being tempted isn’t a sin
Same. I could only get to 43:25 before I had to stop watching. Makes me very sad, frustrated and angry. Especially when I’ve done so much to heal, be accepting, grow my relationship with God, know for sure that He’s affirming, and that God wants gay men to be with other men of God, equally yoked and in covenant. I do believe just like a straight couple within the covenant of marriage sex is great and should be celebrated
I’m so sorry that your experience listening brought up some negative feelings. It wasn’t my intention at all to peddle any negativity towards affirming Christians. This is just my experience & my story. Be blessed brother
I am in the same boat as you it seems. I know I am Loved beyond measure by my creator, through Jesus my savior and friend. I go to a supportive church that has allowed me to walk with them on this journey without judgement, as I figure out what it is that Papa has called me to do. Being gay is not a sin. I'm not sure acting on your gay feelings in a loving committed relationship is a sin when right from the beginning God said "it is not good for man to be alone". As a bilingual person knowing how difficult it is to translate intention and feeling along with meaning, I'm not sure that the true meaning of the translations we've gotten from all the different bibles are true to Gods word and intention on the matter. The simple fact that we have so many denominations and translations tell me that it is very probable that no one has it completely correct. I'm no theologian. So I keep coming back to the same thing, Jesus died for my sins and I am made whole only through his sacrifice. No one begged him to be free of being Gay more than I. Even threatening Him with my own life BUT through His love and mercy and kindness, I saw His Love for me in a new light. That no matter what, I have always been HIs and His sacrifice is enough. You just have to believe that. I had a concerned Christian concerned friend once told me, but faith with out works is dead. My answer to that is, every step I take, every breath I breath is an act of faith! I do not know if I'm called to be celibate. It is potentially more possible now as I am 47 than it was when I was 23 but even now I have a high sex drive and cannot tell anyone else that being celibate is the only way to be gay and Christian, however, I have made a promise to Papa that has freed me a bit. I will not get involved with anyone that doesn't already know HIM and LOVE HIM at least as much as I do. So for now that's where I stand. Till I find that one rare flower in the desert, I will walk alone in this world with HIM at my side. Let me add, In my small group at church we have many young and older women that are single due to divorce, and or life choices, and I found that promise is how most of them walk in life. I will walk this life alone till God provides someone who Loves Him to come into their lives. So that calling works for gay straight or questioning and is supported by the bible. Do not yolk yourself to someone that doesn't believe. And the belief I want my partner to have is the most basic and important of beliefs. That we are Loved beyond measure, bought by heavy price, paid for by precious blood, and made whole by Jesus our savior. Everything else, all other details, are not what you need to get back into Papas arms when you die. They guide your life, they help you live well, they should bring people closer to HIM because they see his light in your eyes, But they are not your ticket back to the father. NOTHING else is other than the blood of Jesus. Period. end of statement. Anything else said to sow doubt of your salvation through Jesus is not of the Father. Even when the devil might use and twist scripture, IF it sows doubt of your salvation be careful. That is not to say that you will not be internally convicted of things where the Holy Spirit may want to change your mind about something, But that is where many Christians falter. When its hard to tell the difference between the enemies voice, our own, and the holy spirit. This is my litmus test, if a thought starts to pull you away from the Father, whether its shame, conviction, or feeling of unworthiness, I run back and give it to Him. I am dust and do not understand, all I can do it trust you have me in your hands, and that the Blood of Jesus is ENOUGH.
end of point, keep your eyes on the cross, keep your eyes on Jesus, you are not responsible for anyone else walk and no one can save you so they are not responsible for yours. its your walk, its your journey, its your walk with HIM.
I do apologize for asking a stupid question, but has Conor explored the idea of having an asexual relationship? Surely he can have a non-sexual relationship without committing sin?
No questions are stupid! It’s definitely something I’ve thought on before. However, I know I’m not asexual & the markers/attributes of asexuality are not something I experience
Do you think one can find a lifelong companion that provides all the love and support like in a traditional relationship without the sex? That’s the dilemma I’m having and asking for God’s guidance
The gift of singleness. Have you guys explored the aromatic asexual community and queer platonic relationships? Have you studied the eunuchs in the Bible? As someone on the Ace spectrum, I don't experience any of his struggles with celibacy and relationships. As a Christian, exploring these communities has reshaped my understanding of the Bible.
Glad you have found a community that resonates with you. However, just because your sexual orientation is on the ace spectrum doesn’t mean that this gay man shares your experience. The church encouraging this man to be celibate because of his attraction to his own gender is damaging.
@@lyssasletters3232 I am affirming in my beliefs. I went from tolerating to accepting to affirming. It happened over time with God's help. My heart breaks for this young man. I am 60+ years old. I didn't even know that I was queer until about 4 years ago. So it's all a journey. We are all just trying to figure life out one day at a time. Blessings
I’m bummed about the direction this podcast has gone. It’s not my podcast, so it’s all your choice. I’m not hating on you. You can make whatever podcast you want. But I really need to hear nice things about gay people today, not that gay relationships are evil. This perspective makes me so sad.
It’s a challenging topic, and definitely wasn’t meant for today, it was just already queued up at this pointed. We did want to give this side some time, but I totally feel where you’re coming from, it’s not a great day for it. We’re going to be discussing more about what to do in the aftermath next week, and we are planning on having a lot more affirming conversations as time goes on. Especially seeing where everything is at right now. But yeah, feel free to skip this one. I fully understand.
You handle feedback really gracefully by the way. If some stranger on the internet were criticizing my podcast I’d be like, “well then don’t listen, bitch!” :)
I can see you're sincere, but you're sincerely misguided. Christianity is theological propaganda, running completely counter to the teachings of Jesus. I am homosexual, and I left religion in 1980, at 20. Jesus taught two fundamental aspects of the spiritual path: to look within yourself honestly and sincerely, and to love the world. There is absolutely no moral reason for your abstinence. Paul said, "To the pure, all things are pure." He also said, "All things are lawful for me, but I will not be a slave to anything." The Buddha called this :attachments." All is good, as long as you don't become enslaved by it. That's the first part of Jesus' teaching, to reflect in general, which includes your relationship to your objects of desire. I would discourage anyone from involving themselves with religion. It's poison to the mind.
I love your podcasts. The timing of this episode the day after the election, with all the extreme hatred toward gay people. The conversation of celibacy can be valid but is timed poorly by the craziness of so many “Christians” in love with Trump is in poor taste. I don’t even want to listen to this. You are not struggling with being gay. It’s what god has given you. You are being authentic and not robotic. Sorry for my opinion. I have loved your podcasts. But the timing of this just pounds in the pain from the hatred of so many misled Christians. 😢😢😢there is nowhere in scripture that being gay is a salvation issue.
@@massagewerks1734 yeah it’s not ideal timing. But we also didn’t want to not put anything out. Feel free to sidebar this one for later and we’ll have a discussion on the election next week ready to go!
@ thank you. He said he believes being gay is a salvation issue. I have to challenge that. I think one of the biggest issues is the “inerrancy” of scripture that as become the standard for the evangelical movement. And is not the universal or common historical way of looking at scripture. I was an evangelical for many years and my faith has brought out of that mindset.
@@ITriedToBeStraight let’s stop raising up the voices of people with harmful beliefs and instead focus on sharing voices of people whose beliefs can inspire others to live authentically (like having romance and sex with people if we have a desire to do so). Let’s be responsible during these uncertain times. You have a platform. Choose to use your platform to spread an identity-affirming message, or you’re choosing to be complicit with systemic homophobia.
I love your podcasts. The timing of this episode the day after the election, with all the extreme hatred toward gay people. The conversation of celibacy can be valid but is timed poorly by the craziness of so many “Christians” in love with Trump is in poor taste. I don’t even want to listen to this. You are not struggling with being gay. It’s what god has given you. You are being authentic and not robotic. Sorry for my opinion. I have loved your podcasts. But the timing of this just pounds in the pain from the hatred of so many misled Christians. 😢😢😢
Love the channel. Watched about every episode but really hoping you guys dont get into politics. Getting really tired of being told/assumed that i should be feeling scared and devastated because of the election results. Trust me when i say this that there are tons of LGBT people very much happy right now. Im a gay man and i feel fine. I already figured you guys leaned more to the left by your over use of the word 'queer' instead of gay/lesbian. Which is fine i kept watching dont care where you stand until you get preachy. If next episode is all about how i should be scared, gonna have to check out. But will still wish the best for you both and the channel!
The segment of him speaking about the ache of just wanting to hold someone’s hand and how he knows he’d be an amazing partner - pissed me off - I hurt for him, because I know that same ache. I respect his conviction and decision to live in a way that resonates with him - but the rhetoric of the heteronormative standard of partnership, especially in a church context, that only straight people can have someone to love and a hand to hold, is bullshit.
My deepest hope is that he can one day feel the peace in himself to deem himself worthy of romantic love, and to have someone gaze into his soul, hold him with loving arms and call him beautiful…on this side of Heaven.
Another great episode guys - So grateful for this podcast and the diverse stories of so many people you all are highlighting.
Truly a gift. 💝
Seriously. It took me being in a loving relationship with another man to realise - this is pure. It's not perveted or disgusting - it's the same love a man and women can have together and everyone should be entitled to that, because it's a wonderful experience to have in life, and is woven in our biology to need that kind of connection.
❤ I always wonder,If God created me as a Gay man, why would He make me reject my being complete as a human? Friendships can provide only a partial fulfillment in relating to another.
There is much greater aspects of having unity with one person, physically/sexually is/will become a quite minor part of any committed relationship.
I wonder how many celibate Gays are only giving in as pressured responses to be accepted by the Church/Straight groups. Many people state, It’s okay to be Gay as long as one does not act upon it.
The Bible teaches that it is better to marry than to commit sexual lust and imagination in one’s heart. Celibacy is for some a calling, just as it is for straight people. But that is not the majority of people.
I feel condemned when many, if not most, people are promoting celibacy for Gays to be acceptable.
@@denniso.shepherd6699the point is that he is not choosing to be celibate because others are pressuring him into it, but because of his own personal spiritual convictions and readings of the bible. Why shouldn't his choice be respected? There is no reason not to.
@@absolutelypitiful3837 I am not saying his choice is incorrect for him. I am stating the fact that it seems most people are accepting only of those who choose to be celibate. I've been told I can be part of a church, but because I am Gay, I cannot even participate in the Worship Team, let alone, a more major aspect of ministering through the church. However, many who are in committed relationships cannot be leaders. That forces celibacy on those who desire companionship in order to be a leader.
@@absolutelypitiful3837 There is beauty in his conviction but you HAVE to acknowledge that this celibacy is not the norm for people who have desire in such a manner. If he can configure his existence in a celibate manner, more power to him. But just like many Christians believe we are simpyl.giving into carnal desires to be openly homosexual, we gays can acknowledge that denial of one's true, pure desires is a very fraught task.
This episode broke my heart. Conor said he struggles every single day to make the choice to be celibate. He's 29 years old, he may well live another 60 years. I cannot imagine the pain of commiting to perhaps that number of years of celibacy at such a young age (I am younger than Conor myself). To know you have to live your entire life without ever once having someone special, not even hold someone's hand, even with all the potential and desire that Conor specifically has, is an idea that just saddens me beyond belief.
Conor said being single means he has the time to give more to his friends and his church, that that is the gift of celibacy. But are either his friends or his church able to love him (not just in a vague sense) in a whole sort of way? Would they give him the same amount of time he gives them? Would they sacrifice the amount he would? His friends who have partners will prioritise their partner over him, the church is a type of organisation so to speak, and organisations cannot love an individual on an individual basis. And what even is love? At the end of the day, when the Church bars its doors and the pastors and friends go home for the night, they have someone to go home to, and Conor goes to an empty home. Sure, he may be invited here and there. But without that, his home is a place where he is alone. It sounds to me as though there is a dynamic of pity between Conor and his social group and Church. They pity him and they have these conversations about his sexuality with him as a pitiful gesture of goodwill. But they will never change. It seems so unfair that everyone in Conor's life is able to enjoy every type and shade of love that exists, but Conor is denying himself those beautiful array of shades. For how many years will he be able to conjure deep and meaningful happiness for other people's happiness and other people's relationships, at the very denial of his own? The bottom line is, you can be happy and loving of other people's marriages and relationships, but it isn't your marriage or your relationship. It's like when you watch a movie or a show. When you switch the TV off, those characters and their relationships sieze to exist, and your emotions for them eventually fade until you switch the TV back on. When you're with someone you love, the TV is always on.
Conor said he wants to live this life, that he has chosen it. But he also said he does NOT want it (not explicitly, but it can be inferred). He said it hurts so much. He said the pain has led him down to a path of pornography addictions and other things in the past. Maybe we are seeing Conor now in a very good time of his life, where he is able to bear the pain and function well. But what if something were to happen - a terrible life event or something - and the pain of his life in general were to break him and he'd have nobody to lean on in that ultimate intimate sense? I don't doubt he'd have Jesus to lean on, but his concept of Jesus exists only in his mind. Jesus cannot give him practical help. Jesus can't cook him a meal and leave it on the doorstep, he can't work through a problem together in the kitchen. What if he were to suffer a traumatic brain injury or something and his mind was no longer able to conceive ideas or concepts or think or pray to Jesus? What would be left? Sure, a Church group may be able to offer help, but ANY social group, religious or not, will be able to offer help. And an alternative social group wouldn't encourage (whether outwardly or implicitly) Conor to deny himself a relationship.
At the end of the day, Conor said this choice has come from an introspective process into his own heart, but his heart will be full of the beliefs that were shaped in a certain way because of his background, environment, upbringing etc. So in essence, I feel like I've just watched a self fulfilling prophecy play itself out. Even if Conor can't think of any particular person or Church that has forced him into making this choice, that does not mean there are not deeply unconscious fears and worries he is surpressing, that may have been internalised many years ago when his mind was busy making interpretations of his environment. You do not always need an explicit statement (i.e. a pastor reading out in Church 'gays will go to hell') in order to behave as if one has been made. And then your mind will do the rest in creating a narrative and justification that allows you to hide the suppressed emotion (i.e. 'Oh I'm doing good as I am not commiting sin' or 'I must humble myself unto the Lord because I am a sinner and He is perfect, who am I to know what I really want?'). Humans read between lines and pick up on cues. We gather information from social cues all throughout our lives, and we develop beliefs from them that we adhere to because they keep us safe in the environments in which we exist. I truly believe that if Conor had been born in a different place, he would instead be a gay man pursuing a relationship, because the cues in his environment would have been totally different and shaped a different outlook. Religious beliefs are circumstantial (e.g. had he been born in an Amazonian Tribe, he'd believe something else). Sexuality isn't. It breaks my heart.
I really hope Conor may gradually see things differently. There is a beautiful and loving man out there for Conor, who is never going to be with him, because of this whole situation. There could have been a different destiny that will never play out. And he even said himself he knows he would be a good partner and has a lot of love to give. At the end of the podcast you asked Conor what advice he would give to others, and though I haven't been asked, I want to give some advice to Conor - give it Conor. Give your love. Please, give it. And I don't mean to your friends or your Church. You already do this. Give your love in that way you really wish you could. You could make a man the happiest man in the world.
This comment has touched my Soul.. 🌹 You have so eloquently described your thoughts and feelings, it has been absolutely beautiful to read. Words don’t do justice. Even though you have written it as a response to this video, your words reach far beyond that. Thank you for sharing, it has touched me deeply ❤️
@@SoNiels I didn't expect anyone to reply to my comment, let alone with such beautiful and praiseful words. Thank you so much for reaching out to me just to say that. It made me feel very happy. Best of luck SoNiels!
@@bookers2583 You’re more than welcome. You are definitely gifted in writing from your heart, and have an advanced, perceptive mental and analytical capacity. Wishing you the best as well 🌹
Hopefully, he'll meet someone who is enough to break through the idea that he has to be alone. It makes me crazy that someone would think they have to be celibate on purpose.
Hey, just wondering did you listen to the whole episode? He kind of addresses this from about 52:48 onwards
The were some beautiful bits and some heart breaking bits in this one. Not holding hands and cooking for one 😭.
I respect Conor's perspective. I, too, knew I was different at age 5 or 6, although I never knew what gay was at the time. I struggled with my faith and being gay in my late teens and early 20s. I, too, tried to unalive myself, and eventually, I went to counselling, where I first admitted to another person that I was gay.
After that, we diverged on the path. I decided to leave the Catholic Church.
I eventually reconciled my faith with being gay, but I dated and eventually married my partner. Unfortunately, he passed away from cancer, so I have been alone since then.
I'm a 67 yr old gay man who grew up in a faith base home who knew I was different then my brother. The first encounter with a gay person was at age 20 and was interduce to the LGB
Community I never align with them so I stepped away. I focused on myself, education, saving, investing but did meet my first we were together 20yrs he also came from a faith base home.
Unfortunately we grew apart and a yr later my present walked into my life who also was from a faith based home. We now have been together 23 yrs but being gay is only a small part of
who we are and the least interesting thing about us. Our Values, Conduct, Achievements are who we are and more interesting thing to talk about. Our friends are just a handful that is not needy or toxic for we both feel the gay community doesn't share the same values. And having a faith based raising contribute to that and is a blessing thankful for, we recognize and share with others
to this day.
Thank you for adding that bit in the beginning
I know Conor and he’s as loving, humble and genuine as he came across in this conversation. Fair play to you guys for having him on.
Also, please don’t send Joel Osteen to Northern Ireland lol, we have our own problems
thankful for you Andrew ❤
Handsome guy. Don't necessarily agree with this perspective but it was interesting to hear him out.
I am glad to see affirming folk including the voice of celibate gays but it makes my heart hurt there are so many young people going hat way who are gay. And as a person of faith who always felt confident that God welcomed gay love and that that was a church problem not a God problem,
I am NOT GLAD to see these podcasters share this perspective without condemning its origins and its harmful nature. It is hurtful and not okay, and I do not support encouraging celibacy for people who are gay simply because they are gay. Yes, these people’s voices matter, but their stories need to be shared in a context where their beliefs are not condoned and where the manipulation and abusive teachings of the church are highlighted.
@@lyssasletters3232that is… not it, sis. That is such a malicious and oppressive angle to take on the issue. I trust that was not your intention, but that’s why I wanted to say something.
I think the beauty of this video is that it offers another point of view without forcing either side as being the correct one. I assume you watched the video, and look at that, you still believe what you believed and I still believe what I believe. To put a clear negative spin on someone’s story and life choice is to in a way silence them and to minimize the strength it took not only to make the choice, but to share their story.
You can have your gripes with the church and whatnot. But please do not undermine the choice that I have made for myself, and the choice that other brave men and women have made.
@ I want to start off by saying that you are right that we should not silence the voices of those who are oppressed.
Although you and I seem to disagree about the source of malice and oppression in this case (which I believe to be the church’s stance on homosexuality), I think we can both agree that it is harmful to invalidate a human being’s physical and emotional desires and sensations. Experiences of sexual attraction or not feeling sexual attraction are not within our conscious control, so I am in favor of validating those experiences. On the other hand, no human that experiences sexual attraction is born with an innate desire for celibacy (with the exception of those on the asexual spectrum and those with little to no libido). I am not interested in invalidating anyone’s emotional or physical experience but rather want to challenge belief structures that I see to be harmful.
Sounds like you value hearing people’s stories about sexuality and faith, as do I. Have you watched any of this man’s content or any videos from the Mormon Stories podcast about LGBTQ experiences within their church? ruclips.net/video/jSq3S51fboM/видео.htmlsi=1PsfekhmMElGztuE
My wish for you and for everyone in the church who identifies as LGBTQ+ is safety, first and foremost. I also wish for you to feel supported and valued, and I can see that my comment caused you discomfort by highlighting the ways the church does not support or value it’s LGBTQ+ members unless those members choose not to act on their natural desires. That is a form of coercive control. If someone were to tell you, “you can only get xyz (security, love, belonging) if you do abc (not have sex with the people to whom you feel attraction),” that choice is based in coercion.
I believe that when we share the voices of oppressed people, we have a responsibility to also share the context in which their beliefs developed and how systems of oppression are responsible for perpetuating suffering.
If there is a kinder, gentler way that I can phrase these criticisms of the church so that my comments do not cause LGBTQ+ church members shame or hurt, please let me know.
@@lyssasletters3232 Hey! Thank you for your thoughtful and considerate response. I think it is admirable to question things that do not seem right. I’ve been on that journey myself!
By now, you probably see how long this response is. I apologize. I tried to break this into “sections” to help make it less overwhelming.
II
I will definitely check out the man’s content-or at least the video you linked. I’m not super knowledgeable on Mormonism, but I do know that I do not agree with a LOT of stuff they believe. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
III
You seem very passionate, and I don’t want to dampen that passion by telling you how to word your arguments. Instead, I want to offer a perspective. And I welcome you to engage with it, but only if you want to. This way, your words are still your own, but they also take into account experiences like mine.
I want to try summarizing my own journey for you, and I’ll try to keep it brief, but I also want to try to be thorough. If you have any questions or thoughts, I would love to know! And regardless of how you respond, if you respond, I hope it at least explains why I originally responded the way I did.
IV
Evaluating every side of the argument on homosexuality is actually how I ended up making my decision to be celibate. It was a decision I made for myself. However, I think it’s also fair to point out that not everyone makes the decision for themselves.
I think the distinguishing factor here is the motivation behind choosing singleness. Some people, as you might say, probably do it because that’s what they’ve been told to do. And while they set their mind to it, their heart may not be so inclined, and this is because the choice was ultimately not theirs. It was forced on them. And in any case, when your heart isn’t all in, ANYTHING can become unbearable. I think this is why celibacy sometimes falls through, and why it’s so easy to resent religion for it - but that is just speculation, and I want to be careful and sensitive about that.
V
I tried to be in a relationship once. And when I was too young to care about traditional values, I gave in to the curiosity to have my first physical experience with another guy. I didn’t feel too bad about it in the moment. I felt mostly excited, like I had finally lived, but I also felt like I had gone against my own personal beliefs-and not the church’s beliefs, because at that point I had given up on the church.
My personal conviction was that a relationship was perfectly fine, but I didn’t want to be physically intimate. I was always weird about that, even after I walked away from the church, when I was just trying to be my own person. But I did it as a way to prove I was not bound by what I was raised to believe. And although it was thrilling, I started to see my partner differently and not in a good way. If I had made the truly liberating decision, both my head and heart had a cruel and haunting way of indicating it.
VI
Long story short, I studied different perspectives, and when I leaned in one direction, I thought deeply about it. I wasn’t even really in the church when I made the decision to be celibate. I was just starting to reconstruct my faith, and oddly, my decision is actually what led me to the traditional denomination of Catholicism - not the other way around.
VII
I had heard many unkind words when I was younger, when I was nondenominational - but the words were not directly aimed at me. I managed to hide it back then.
All this to say, I really appreciate your concern for the safety of people who have struggled with the church. It’s good that you are concerned. I think you have a very compassionate heart, and I admire that!
VIII
While I was an undergrad - at a Christian school - I experienced mostly support from others. I met people who may not relate entirely to my experience, but who understand that everyone struggles with something in their lives, and that the purpose of fellowship, and community at large, is to support one another no matter their struggle.
I never felt invalidated or anything like that. No one ever gave me a reason to feel that way. In fact, it’s likely because people understood that my feelings and desires were valid that they wanted to support me in the first place.
I even had some of the sweetest professors, traditional ones at that, who promised to voice their support if anyone ever gave me a hard time about my orientation, and this truly touched me.
I have recently been given the privilege of being an honorary “uncle” to the baby of my Catholic best friend, and I have never felt so loved by someone who wasn’t my immediate family-and she was the first college peer I officially came out to.
IX
I could go on forever, and try to explain my position more, but I feel like this response is already WAY TOO LONG. And I’d like to give you a chance to move the conversation along if you want to.
Again, I thank you for your response, and for your willingness to actually discuss this a little. My goal is not to change your mind about anything, but rather to help you see where I am coming from, and why I don’t believe every case like mine is a result of oppressive religion. I don’t deny that there are cases like this, but I promise that mine wasn’t, and I’m sure there are many other cases like mine. I was moved by the compassion of the church, and I followed my faith, which just happened to align with the Church’s beliefs.
I keep coming back to this video. Having been in ministry myself -- what is wrong with the minister of this man's church. This young man is believing in the scripture in a way few if any of his other congregants do and I suspect the minister does not himself. When in college I wrote about how the church makes liers of gay people and that makes it easier to get us to hate ourselves, but it is not that they want us to fail but they need us so we can be their priestly class the one group of people in their congregations that are following the scripture when it comes to sex -- even if we would fall we at least would be so mortified. This video makes my soul ache and grown to God.
My first time seeing this channel 😊 This is a fantastic conversation! Learned so much!
Really helpful to hear Conor's story even if i stand in a little bit of different place. I used to be in his position and have changed somewhat over the years but I am so in support of people being free to live according to their own convictions when it comes to this topic. Hope he can find relationship and flourishing whatever life brings him.
He believes that being gay is not a sin, but acting on those desires and inclinations is. As a result, he has chosen to embrace suffering in order to preserve and honor his relationship with God. In his acceptance of singleness, he has found that God has blessed him with close friends and family, providing him with life-giving relationships.
His functional theology works for him at present, but only time will tell if it remains effective in the future, especially if he meets someone who fits his type and that person shows interest in him.
‘embracing suffering’ is the call for all Christian’s, but also embracing the promise that one day our suffering will all be over!
What I ask myself is not how you can be gay and Christian, but how can be gay and Christian and human. I was gay and Christian for years. What was missing was the genuine humanness, until, after many years, I found a partner (also a Christian), with whom I shared a truly loving relationship. That is what finally made me, in addition to being gay and Christian, also a genuine human being. I don't know whether you can understand this, but it is so. Maybe not everybody needs an intimate, loving human relationship to make them fully human, but I did.
Can't say hats off enough to you guys.💜you're all such beautiful people. Thank you for having this conversation where the 'two' sides are rarely allowed to come together without it being horrible.💜 This was awesome.💜 An amazing example of humans.💜 Thank you so much.✨💜💜💜.✨💞
I’m so glad that there is another man who is speaking about this. This is something I feel strongly about.
I see a lot of comments who don’t want to accept this choice. It was a painful realization for me too. I’ve been a hopeless romantic all my life, and when I made this decision, I was crushed. But at that time, I was also starting to take my faith seriously. One thing had to give, and I refused to choose myself over my Creator.
But I didn’t choose to be celibate because other people told me to. In fact, I thought about it before I knew it was even an answer to my orientation-same way I realized I was gay before knowing what it was. I made the choice on my own, based on what I learned about marriage and what I learned about my orientation. It hurts ALL the time. I relate SO much to this man’s struggle. But for me, it is a cross to bear-everyone has one, and this just happened to be mine. It will probably continue to be a struggle for a while, but somehow this decision also brought me so much peace. It’s hard to explain.
I appreciate the intentions behind the sympathetic comments, but they do hurt a bit. This decision often cannot be reduced to “personal conviction” or what resonates with me as an individual. If it were truly up to that, I would 100% get married to a man who could grow old with me.
I love point this man makes on how singleness is often preached, and who preaches it. This is why I love that this man is speaking on it, he knows the struggle, but his theology seems quite sound. I’m on my journey to Catholicism, so I know there may be some differences in the details of our decision, but the principle is the same.
The woman hits it on the head when she mentions the great things that can be done by single people. Having single men and women-priests and religious people-be my spiritual leaders definitely helps me. I also feel like there are some professions that are not as compatible with marriage and family as others.
She also makes a great point about the LACK of celebration of celibacy. Marriage is so often imposed on people from a young age. Culture almost treats celibacy as a sign that someone has failed somewhere in life. It’s just unfair.
I wish this man the best! And I appreciate this channel for letting him share his story.
‘I refused to choose myself over my Creator’
This is incredibly powerful Dani. Thank you for sharing a bit of your story. I’ll be praying for you as you continue to navigate your journey, and that you’ll experience some joy along the way, amidst the inevitable pain & challenge
oh wow! Thank you so much sir! I will be praying for you as well! I admire your strength, and I thank you for being so honest about your experiences.
I am sorry if such statements hurt but they are expressions of Faithfull christian belief just as the guests own honest statement that he feels it is a sin to have two men marry and how he hopes to offer a winsome example to gay folks he interacts with that they also might some day commit in a manaer like he has done. I believe that God made people to be in community and I believe that modern society has few modes that offer the kind of lifetime intimacy and deep care and support of one another that we need to survive and thrive and for getter or w3orse one of the few remaining social bonds that has a chance of lasting and operating in a deep way is the marriage relationship and so for someone who does not want or feel gifted with singleness to pursue it in this world is to frestrate your life beyond what scripture and hesus mandate and counceled us to do. Also I challenge that there is a certain arrogance in holding to such an unrealistic personal sexual standard not simply because it pushes past what Jesus demands as far as chastity - he and Paul both counsel those who desire tio have a sexual union to do so rather than burn and atempt to live in a way that is not what they where specially called and equiped to endure. The bible even provides models of male intimate love and while marriage is not the only social configuration that could have developed to allow thopsee so inclined to turn to to express their llove and sexual nature while also modeling christian faithfuillness but however we today decide to institutionalize such unions of same sex persons to forbid them based on the hard hartedness or limited imagination or awareness of those livingh in the fiurst century would be a failure to interpret and appluy scripture in a way that was credibl;e and certaiinly not in a way that was consistant. So as he wishes for married gays a deeper understanding I pray for him less shame over the grace of the gospel and greater ownership of the priviledge but the duty to exercise the churches gidt of binding and looseing in relation to the moral imparative that has tested the church in our generation.
@@ryr1974 Hey there. I want to begin by thanking you for your response. You raise some interesting points, though admittedly, some were hard to follow.
One thing I agree with is that community is super important. That’s undeniable. We were designed for community. But I disagree with the idea that marriage is the only way to experience a lasting and deep relationship. It’s a special kind of relationship for sure. But I don’t think it’s good to reduce marriage to its benefits. Marriage is a vocation, and not one to take lightly.
I want to take the time to address the other points you made. In order to do that. I will need to respond a few more times, because it will take a lot of space.
In fact I have already written a response-not just to your points, but to the perspective you hold. I want to do this because I understand where you come from because I used to hold the same position on this issue. I am very familiar with some of the points you made in your response. But I am also familiar with some counter arguments, ones I found much more convincing and consistent with the Christian standards of goodness and truth.
So, below this comment, there will be a series of reflective responses. Anyone is free to read them.
I am doing this because I have faith in people. Especially people who even care to question what is right.
I also want to take a page from Socrates’ book and be a gadfly, because I like to hold onto my hope that people are still willing to put the work into being the best version of themselves, regardless of how they believe they can accomplish that.
I don’t expect many to read what I have to say. I honestly don’t expect anyone to. But I would rather say something and risk not being heard than keep my thoughts to myself when someone may genuinely be interested in them.
With that, I end this comment, and begin this reflective “essay” I have written for anyone who cares to regard it. :)
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Intro
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I read books and watched films from people who turned to the revisionist perspective because of the hurt they experienced, and after recognizing they had the freedom to do what they felt was right. I read their arguments, their theories, and their exegeses, and I leaned into it for a while.
But it just wasn’t convincing enough to be the end of my search for truth. I still feel for everyone who holds the revisionist position, because I once wanted to hold the position myself. But I felt disappointed by it. It felt too easy, if not a bit dishonest compared to other perspectives. I do not mean to be antagonistic by saying this either. It is just an honest observation.
My arrogance on the matter died when I decided to stop believing that the fallible opinions of men, including mine, could ever be treated as a substitute for what God’s word says. To say that it is arrogant to lower my position of authority on the matter is a bit contradictory.
I want to challenge anyone who reads this to consider a few really important questions before they proceed. First, what is truth? Second, what does it mean to be a Christian? Third, why should a Christian care if another Christian believes differently about a given subject?
Although the pressing matter here is sexuality, these general questions apply to matters beyond it-arguably, every matter there is. The answers to these questions are far more intimately connected to our discussion on sexuality than one may think at first, and they also connect to each other quite well.
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On Truth:
What is truth?
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If we want to take God the Father and Christ the Son seriously, we must readily accept that there is only ONE truth. God’s truth. This means that only one of our perspectives inspired by God’s word can be true, and the other one would HAVE to be false.
It is undeniably fallacious to conclude that the two perspectives on homosexuality can be accepted as truth, because the two perspectives themselves offer different and even contrasting truth claims.
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To be a Christian:
What does it mean?
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To put it simply, to be a Christian is to follow Christ’s example as closely as possible, and to live according to his teachings as well as we can. This encompasses EVERY moral issue we may face in life-the popular Christian phrase, “What would Jesus do?” captures this idea, but it also cheapens it in my opinion.
Furthermore, and to keep it simple, this is also what holiness is. This word, holiness, often causes discomfort. Some automatically assume that holiness makes someone better than others, but this couldn’t be further from the truth. Holiness is a lifelong process for everyone until eternal life begins, and it is arguably an equalizer of all people.
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Culminating Argument
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Now, I have built up to one of my main points. If holiness is following Christ’s example and teachings-and if this is a defining characteristic of Christian life-then we must know with certainty what Christ exemplified and what he taught.
There should be no ambiguity, otherwise we are not actually certain. And there should be no irreconcilable contradictions among us, otherwise one side unknowingly admits that God’s truth is not the Truth, and that His truth merely serves as a basis for Truth.
For the faithful Christian, the Truth is what Christ lived and preached, and what God said through his followers-including Old Testament writers-that is the Truth with a capital T.
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Conclusion 1
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Therefore, and I say this with utmost respect for those who do not share my perspective: One cannot aim to alter the message or meaning of God’s word or Christ’s teachings and still claim to be a faithful Christian. And my criticism on reinterpreting God’s word goes both ways-so this also applies to the radical traditional congregants who still believe that my orientation is a choice, or that I need to be converted sexually-because neither the Bible nor empirical evidence suggests that this is true.
Christ himself said: “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass until the law is accomplished. Therefore whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:18-19).
This is after Christ lists the beatitudes, but ALSO after he clarifies that he came to fulfil the law (of the Old Testament) and not to abolish it. And this is before he revisits the moral law of the Old Testament. I mention the Old Testament because it is an important consideration for our discussion here. We’ll come back to it soon!
Sorry, I couldn't keep watching after he admitted to thinking gay sex is a sin.
That’s totally ok! We’re having occasional conversations with different perspectives but we absolutely know that could be triggering for a lot of people, and if you need to skip it that’s ok. I hope that you’re feeling alright, I know there’s a lot going on right now! Take care of yourself ❤
@@ITriedToBeStraight Thank you!
What the hell is gay sex????
@@darrylsanders6056 If you have to ask, you might be on the wrong channel.
@@jwb52z9 Do your learn biology and reproductive systems? Sex can be only between woman and man .
Hmm I wonder if queer platonic relationships are something that might be an option for religious people considering celibacy. I mean not getting too much in the weeds here, but I am aromantic myself (asexual is someone who has little to no sexual attraction; aromantic is someone who has little to no romantic attraction). There are many people who are aromantic or asexual (or both) who choose not to have a partner at all. Then there are others who still want to have a relationship, but still being true to themselves as aromantic or asexual people. We use the term queer platonic relationship (QPR). The basic idea is just that it's a relationship where the people in the relationship can set the fundamental rules of the relationship. Like for example two asexual people enter into a relationship and acknowledge that they want to be partners and life and maybe have children and go to each other's work events together, but choose not to have sex and maybe choose not to live in the same space. Again, this is just an example but you can kind of mix and match the fundamentals of the relationship with your partner. I feel like I kind of got in the weeds there, but the conversation just made me think about queer platonic relationships a bit.
The beauty of coming to the table (or in this case the comment section) as a learner and not a teacher. Thanks for sharing this - I’m definitely going to explore more around this
I think this is something that Bridget Eileen Rivera has modelled for queer people - she is on the celibacy side of things but had a platonic partner I believe and has written an amazing book about harm of queer people in the church
Love you guys ❤ All Is Going to be OK 💗
This dude makes me sad because he is very aware this doesn’t serve him but states god is making it okay…
Thanks so much for having me on guys - it was a real blessing
My hope & prayer is that it challenges others, maybe starts a conversation & ultimately helps those who may grapple with the same hurts & pains that I have
For those who are grappling in the same ways - we are all in the trenches together! It’s tough, but let’s never stop giving it all over to God, each and everyday, asking for more of
His strength & His guidance as we navigate this tension
You can also get support from "people" who love you and support you the way you are. As a gay man, you need to be honest with yourself. You should live the life you want and do not let others tell you who to love amd how to live your life. Life is short and celibacy is not a good idea. Humans need intimacy with other humans and trying to be celibate is not the way to go.
@ I’m glad you’ve had the chance to engage with what Nate & Susie are doing - it’s a great podcast! Let me respectfully challenge you on one thing you say. This is the life I want to live. I haven’t been forced to live this way, and these choices I am making are from within my own heart. I experience great joy in this journey alongside the harder days
All the best brother. We’re all navigating something tricky; let’s pray for one another as we cast our minds Heavenward and ask God for His Spirit to help us along the way!
Hi Conor. I really appreciate you speaking about this. I’m from East Belfast so it was nice to hear a familiar accent.
I’m 24 and have struggled with this for many years. I resonated with a lot of what you said. You’ve given me a lot of hope, especially knowing we’re from a similar background (Presbyterian upbringing too).
Would there be a way I could reach out to you? Thanks, Alex.
Lol I am also an identical twin. We both turned out gay 😂. A miss matched set is funny. I wish he was in the States. He would be great to have in the msu twin study.
there’s a twin study… sign us up! 😂
Also Susie I’m sure you hear this all the time, and I am EXTREMELY married and monogamous so no funny business intended, but you are so strikingly beautiful! Your dance card would be full in the lesbian/bi dating world if you decided to do that.
At the beginning of this podcast the male host says a term that sounds like 'psy-b' or 'sci-b'. I am not familiar with that term. Can you clarify what you're saying there?
@@connortoth4362 hey! male host here. Side A is the affirming argument, and Side B is the argument for celibacy.
@@ITriedToBeStraight Thanks for the prompt and clarifying response! I really appreciate y'all's show
Being celibate (single) in your 20s and 30s is one thing. Being celibate (single) in your 40s and 50s and 60s is a whole different ball-game. Whatever the advantages of celibacy under 40 may be, they are gone after 40, and it becomes many, many times more difficult. The Irish gentleman, if he remains celibate, has a very unpleasant shock and a very cruel struggle in store.
Hey, it’s the ‘Irish gentleman’ here! I guess the outlook for the next 20-30 years are looking pretty bleak anyways, what, with all the war, global warming & political unrest. What a joy to know God’s still going to be on the throne in 2054 and beyond!
Seriously though… I don’t doubt that the journey ahead won’t be super tough. But what I also don’t doubt is that God will continue to bless me, encourage me and give me daily the confidence & strength to say no to sin & yes to Him
God bless brother!
@@conorpatt0n1 Thank you for responding. I am sixty eight years old so I know what I am talking about. My advice is, if you are gay, establish a meaningful, long-term relationship with another gay man who is a Christian. The relationship does not have to be sexual if that is not what you want, or if you believe that God forbids it. But have the relationship and stick together. Being gay, single and alone past the age of 40 or 50 is not what you want. Please believe me. God bless you.
Just throwing this out there. This lecture from a German theologian and former dean of an evangelical bible college called "The Gay Question" really helped me. He argues strongly that it's okay to be gay and addresses each scripture passage that seems to condemn homosexuality. This is a version with English subtitles. ruclips.net/video/az8h8bgEku8/видео.html
I thought this was good. It's interesting to hear another perspective. I'm side A but I am always open to listening to other opinions and beliefs. I liked the convo. It's different to challenge ideas and beliefs. Personally I do feel if he finds the one it could change all that. It's how it worked for me. But I thought what he had a good interview.
I think the beauty of this ‘interview’ is that it wasn’t an interview at all! Just 3 people who are doing life from slightly different angles, coming together to think that out with one another. Being open to listening other opinions & beliefs is so so vital - thank you!
Im gay and celibate and part of it is due to my faith. I am not a persons biggest fantasy anyway so ill be single lol. I think alot of people need to be single
45:33 A wedding is to celebrate a couple that loves eachother. It's okay to _not_ tell them *before or after* that they are wrong in wanting to commit to being a married couple.
Another FANTASTIC episode!! LOVE you guys!! 😀
Question… in the first clip.. were you in Sacramento by any chance…? Love your humble humility…
In fact, Nate.. the first time I encountered you was around Oct 7th of last year when I was confronted with the hypocrisy of the church and the inconsistency of the church’s ideals and I saw one tik tok of yours and I deep dived in after that one video… the humility, the openness and lack of defensiveness SCREAMED Jesus… just thought I’d convey that.. blessings to you both.
It almost makes me think the church coiled help someone like him, by rejecting him all together so he doesn't spend his life commuting to a call that is denying him whit he dearly wants and as he said would be good at. God
Nate, does your beard go all the way up to your eyes?
Haha no just a couple stray hairs
Kind of sad that he's not going to pursue a relationship because of some religious ideas. But to each his own.
That's how i was.... but I couldn't deal with it anymore... ironically it was priests who helped me get out of the catholic church...
It's fine. It's not like he's in for an unfulfilling life being single. I'm just 99.99% sure if there is a loving God he doesn't care about the sex of who you sleep with.
Why does it have to be sad?
i love you guys...
It’s my honour to have met Conor a number of times but it would be just as an acquaintance to nod at in passing and I can honestly say I have gained such insight and such a deeper respect for him. I am inspired to do better and try harder. God bless you Conor and your witness
Jesus warns about being lukewarm in the book of revelations and he abhors it. This man has one foot in the church and one foot outside. Lukewarm. If you "choose" to be a christian its a commitment and work you must do each day. Its not an easy walk that why jesus stated to "count the cost" because many would not complete that lifestyle.
Respectfully disagree. To my mind he has chosen a path that requires more than a little faith and reliance on God. Anyone who has studied the word alongside him could never describe him as lukewarm. He describes wrestling with temptation which is a struggle every Christian goes through. He has been open about his struggle, which is brave and faithful. Being tempted isn’t a sin
This makes me so Sad and Angry. 😢😮
Same. I could only get to 43:25 before I had to stop watching. Makes me very sad, frustrated and angry. Especially when I’ve done so much to heal, be accepting, grow my relationship with God, know for sure that He’s affirming, and that God wants gay men to be with other men of God, equally yoked and in covenant. I do believe just like a straight couple within the covenant of marriage sex is great and should be celebrated
I’m so sorry that your experience listening brought up some negative feelings. It wasn’t my intention at all to peddle any negativity towards affirming Christians. This is just my experience & my story. Be blessed brother
His accent and speed of talk is like what the hell
Apologies for that! The Northern Ireland accent can definitely throw people off!
I am in the same boat as you it seems. I know I am Loved beyond measure by my creator, through Jesus my savior and friend. I go to a supportive church that has allowed me to walk with them on this journey without judgement, as I figure out what it is that Papa has called me to do. Being gay is not a sin. I'm not sure acting on your gay feelings in a loving committed relationship is a sin when right from the beginning God said "it is not good for man to be alone". As a bilingual person knowing how difficult it is to translate intention and feeling along with meaning, I'm not sure that the true meaning of the translations we've gotten from all the different bibles are true to Gods word and intention on the matter. The simple fact that we have so many denominations and translations tell me that it is very probable that no one has it completely correct. I'm no theologian. So I keep coming back to the same thing, Jesus died for my sins and I am made whole only through his sacrifice. No one begged him to be free of being Gay more than I. Even threatening Him with my own life BUT through His love and mercy and kindness, I saw His Love for me in a new light. That no matter what, I have always been HIs and His sacrifice is enough. You just have to believe that. I had a concerned Christian concerned friend once told me, but faith with out works is dead. My answer to that is, every step I take, every breath I breath is an act of faith! I do not know if I'm called to be celibate. It is potentially more possible now as I am 47 than it was when I was 23 but even now I have a high sex drive and cannot tell anyone else that being celibate is the only way to be gay and Christian, however, I have made a promise to Papa that has freed me a bit. I will not get involved with anyone that doesn't already know HIM and LOVE HIM at least as much as I do. So for now that's where I stand. Till I find that one rare flower in the desert, I will walk alone in this world with HIM at my side.
Let me add, In my small group at church we have many young and older women that are single due to divorce, and or life choices, and I found that promise is how most of them walk in life. I will walk this life alone till God provides someone who Loves Him to come into their lives. So that calling works for gay straight or questioning and is supported by the bible. Do not yolk yourself to someone that doesn't believe. And the belief I want my partner to have is the most basic and important of beliefs. That we are Loved beyond measure, bought by heavy price, paid for by precious blood, and made whole by Jesus our savior. Everything else, all other details, are not what you need to get back into Papas arms when you die. They guide your life, they help you live well, they should bring people closer to HIM because they see his light in your eyes, But they are not your ticket back to the father. NOTHING else is other than the blood of Jesus. Period. end of statement. Anything else said to sow doubt of your salvation through Jesus is not of the Father. Even when the devil might use and twist scripture, IF it sows doubt of your salvation be careful. That is not to say that you will not be internally convicted of things where the Holy Spirit may want to change your mind about something, But that is where many Christians falter. When its hard to tell the difference between the enemies voice, our own, and the holy spirit. This is my litmus test, if a thought starts to pull you away from the Father, whether its shame, conviction, or feeling of unworthiness, I run back and give it to Him. I am dust and do not understand, all I can do it trust you have me in your hands, and that the Blood of Jesus is ENOUGH.
end of point, keep your eyes on the cross, keep your eyes on Jesus, you are not responsible for anyone else walk and no one can save you so they are not responsible for yours. its your walk, its your journey, its your walk with HIM.
This is really powerful - thank you for sharing
I do apologize for asking a stupid question, but has Conor explored the idea of having an asexual relationship? Surely he can have a non-sexual relationship without committing sin?
No questions are stupid! It’s definitely something I’ve thought on before. However, I know I’m not asexual & the markers/attributes of asexuality are not something I experience
Good on you for speaking to someone who has different opinions than you.
Do you think one can find a lifelong companion that provides all the love and support like in a traditional relationship without the sex? That’s the dilemma I’m having and asking for God’s guidance
The gift of singleness. Have you guys explored the aromatic asexual community and queer platonic relationships? Have you studied the eunuchs in the Bible? As someone on the Ace spectrum, I don't experience any of his struggles with celibacy and relationships. As a Christian, exploring these communities has reshaped my understanding of the Bible.
Glad you have found a community that resonates with you. However, just because your sexual orientation is on the ace spectrum doesn’t mean that this gay man shares your experience. The church encouraging this man to be celibate because of his attraction to his own gender is damaging.
@@lyssasletters3232 I am affirming in my beliefs. I went from tolerating to accepting to affirming. It happened over time with God's help. My heart breaks for this young man. I am 60+ years old. I didn't even know that I was queer until about 4 years ago. So it's all a journey. We are all just trying to figure life out one day at a time.
Blessings
I’m bummed about the direction this podcast has gone. It’s not my podcast, so it’s all your choice. I’m not hating on you. You can make whatever podcast you want.
But I really need to hear nice things about gay people today, not that gay relationships are evil. This perspective makes me so sad.
It’s a challenging topic, and definitely wasn’t meant for today, it was just already queued up at this pointed. We did want to give this side some time, but I totally feel where you’re coming from, it’s not a great day for it. We’re going to be discussing more about what to do in the aftermath next week, and we are planning on having a lot more affirming conversations as time goes on. Especially seeing where everything is at right now. But yeah, feel free to skip this one. I fully understand.
I think we’re probably good with the celibacy conversation for a little while now so you can rest assured!
You guys are such good people, not trying to beat you up. Just speaking from the heart.
@@amypooley1799 haha it’s fine. Trust me I get it.
You handle feedback really gracefully by the way. If some stranger on the internet were criticizing my podcast I’d be like, “well then don’t listen, bitch!” :)
Either go in all the way or don’t… this going back and forth with this guys views was annoying. Can’t fully admit himself … waste of time like that.
I can see you're sincere, but you're sincerely misguided.
Christianity is theological propaganda, running completely counter to the teachings of Jesus.
I am homosexual, and I left religion in 1980, at 20.
Jesus taught two fundamental aspects of the spiritual path: to look within yourself honestly and sincerely, and to love the world.
There is absolutely no moral reason for your abstinence. Paul said, "To the pure, all things are pure." He also said, "All things are lawful for me, but I will not be a slave to anything." The Buddha called this :attachments."
All is good, as long as you don't become enslaved by it. That's the first part of Jesus' teaching, to reflect in general, which includes your relationship to your objects of desire.
I would discourage anyone from involving themselves with religion. It's poison to the mind.
Hopefully he can find a gay friendly church and stop torturing himself. Sad
I love your podcasts. The timing of this episode the day after the election, with all the extreme hatred toward gay people. The conversation of celibacy can be valid but is timed poorly by the craziness of so many “Christians” in love with Trump is in poor taste. I don’t even want to listen to this. You are not struggling with being gay. It’s what god has given you. You are being authentic and not robotic.
Sorry for my opinion. I have loved your podcasts. But the timing of this just pounds in the pain from the hatred of so many misled Christians. 😢😢😢there is nowhere in scripture that being gay is a salvation issue.
@@massagewerks1734 yeah it’s not ideal timing. But we also didn’t want to not put anything out. Feel free to sidebar this one for later and we’ll have a discussion on the election next week ready to go!
@ thank you. He said he believes being gay is a salvation issue. I have to challenge that.
I think one of the biggest issues is the “inerrancy” of scripture that as become the standard for the evangelical movement. And is not the universal or common historical way of looking at scripture. I was an evangelical for many years and my faith has brought out of that mindset.
@@massagewerks1734I’m with you! We don’t think it is either, or that it’s wrong at all honestly. Just wanted to hear the other perspective.
@@ITriedToBeStraight let’s stop raising up the voices of people with harmful beliefs and instead focus on sharing voices of people whose beliefs can inspire others to live authentically (like having romance and sex with people if we have a desire to do so). Let’s be responsible during these uncertain times. You have a platform. Choose to use your platform to spread an identity-affirming message, or you’re choosing to be complicit with systemic homophobia.
I love your podcasts. The timing of this episode the day after the election, with all the extreme hatred toward gay people. The conversation of celibacy can be valid but is timed poorly by the craziness of so many “Christians” in love with Trump is in poor taste. I don’t even want to listen to this. You are not struggling with being gay. It’s what god has given you. You are being authentic and not robotic.
Sorry for my opinion. I have loved your podcasts. But the timing of this just pounds in the pain from the hatred of so many misled Christians. 😢😢😢
Love the channel. Watched about every episode but really hoping you guys dont get into politics. Getting really tired of being told/assumed that i should be feeling scared and devastated because of the election results. Trust me when i say this that there are tons of LGBT people very much happy right now. Im a gay man and i feel fine. I already figured you guys leaned more to the left by your over use of the word 'queer' instead of gay/lesbian. Which is fine i kept watching dont care where you stand until you get preachy. If next episode is all about how i should be scared, gonna have to check out. But will still wish the best for you both and the channel!
It’s not though it’s a great time… I don’t know what he’s talking about