Bare Shaft Tuning or Spine Indexing Arrows?
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- Опубликовано: 2 апр 2023
- Is spine indexing with a ram tester better than bare shaft tuning? Click Play.
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Hi Troy, to answer your question about the correlation between pulling down with a weight from the middle of the arrow and pushing from the back of the arrow, in archery what we call the "spine" in Physics we would call the "spring constant" is indeed a constant parameter in both static and dynamic bending. This parameter governs how fast the force from the string propagates from the nock to the center of mass of the arrow (stiffer spine yields faster propagation).
In carbon arrows in particular (as opposed to aluminum arrows) the stiffness will not be the same strength in all directions, giving the arrow a preferred direction to bend. The contact force between the arrow and the arrow rest in combination with the force of gravity gives the bow a preferred direction to bend the arrow. That preferred direction is independent of the draw weight, draw length, and point weight. For consistent arrow flight, you need the arrow to bend the same speed and the same direction every time. If the preferred direction of the arrow is not aligned with the preferred direction of the bow, this can introduce a source of instability in the arrow flight. So you can get better arrow flight by finding the preferred direction of the arrow and aligning that up with the arrow rest. This should make the rest of the tuning process much more precise and lead to more stable arrow flight.
Now I know!! I've seen it, I've nock tuned it out of my arrow set (so they all bend the same) but I couldn't explain it. You made me smarter. That's hard to do!
Spine indexing is simply a starting point. I do this but I still bare shaft tune every single arrow at 3ft and 21 ft. I will not settle for anything less than perfect arrow flight bare shaft. Then final test is a 40yd shot bare shaft then I examine the impact points to my launch point. Those that do not hit straight and points to the launch point don't make the quiver. I've never experienced any planing with any broadband I've used. Thanks for the education you provide.
Went through the test kit and got multiple different setups. Really happy with being able to adjust the arrow for different game animals. Thanks for being you and the work you do
Very common results. Super nice to have multiple options.
Took your advice 2 years ago and got my bow "straight". Bare shafted a bunch of different arrow setups. Found at least SIX different setups that shoot ridiculously straight. Using Sirius Archery Apollo's with 300 spine and 200 grain single bevel broad heads to hunt whitetails. It's a fantastic setup! Matthews VXR 31.5 @ 29 inches and 60 lbs. Can't thank you enough for the information you supply
Glad it was successful!!
Spine indexing is great to do exactly that. To start the process it will not skip steps. In fact that step can be skipped because as you bare shaft the ones that are not match grade can still be made to fly lol. Great video.
Brother thank you for your honesty 💪
I agree 100% regarding spine indexing. I learned to do it in the mid-90s with a couple of ball bearings glued into a short length of pipe clamped into a bench vise. A third ball bearing goes around the arrow shaft fitting loosely. The arrow shaft would go into the bearings in the pipe just far enough to engage both bearings, and the 3rd bearing would be placed just over the other end of the shaft. Holding the 3rd bearing I would then flex the arrow shaft by lifting on the 3rd bearing. The flex would occur along the weakest axis of the shaft and the shaft being tested would rotate till the weakest axis was "on top". I'd mark it with a metallic ink pen. Works well only with carbon and ACC shafts. Not aluminum. It is a better starting point for bare shaft nock tuning, and even fletched paper tuning. That set of shafts end up sharing some common dynamic characteristics that improves grouping.
IMO, it was worth doing.
I didn’t know what spine indexing was so good to know that. What I do know is that there is almost no process/tool better for improving arrow flight/accuracy than bare shaft tuning imo. You introduced me to it and I can’t tell you how many shots I’ve taking tinkering with different arrow combos and frankly diagnosing flaws in my grip of the bow etc. Sometimes it’s the arrow and sometimes it’s me and sometimes it’s the bow but after a while the paper tells the story. The only way is through! About 500 shots this weekend and I finally got bullet holes. Thanks again RF for your help.
don't regret the results from the work you didn't do!
By this time over the last 5 years I had a new set of arrows all ready to go that I started making in January. This year I did something different. I returned to my roots of yesteryears with a recurve bow that I put together. A bow that u can tune & switch limbs out on very easily. When my muscle memory was good & my tiller & nock point along with my brace height were all set right I started bare shaft tuning. B4 that I practiced with a run of the mill 400 spine arrow. The 1st few new hunting shafts I built were flying alright. But the bare shaft was tail right. When RF refers to consistent that is what it was. Everyone w/o a 4" feather fletch flew the same. U get to the point where u just r a little underwhelmed & strive for more. With a compound u can possibly crank down the bolts but mine were bottomed out & I couldn't add tip weight. I have match grained weight up front with my points that match my heads. The solution was to go carbon limbs & the results were immediate. The new limbs r faster ➕️ I went up about 6 pounds in draw weight. I now have another training set of limbs which r the same except they have 4 lbs less poundage & carbon % in them. The efficiency I was getting with the original wood limbs was poor even though my tip was hitting the mark @ 15 yards. W/o getting the exact spine I needed I was just asking for glancing blows & no passthroughs. It's all worth the effort. Just have to come up with great solutions to fix the equation. I can't think of anything that's more Adult than fixing your own setbacks in life.😅
I have been bowhunting for over 30 years and am getting the best arrow flight I have ever gotten after doing bare shaft tuning
that's fantastic
Thanks for the new info
Hey thanks this is one question I had thanks for the video
I cant say i agree with bare shaft tuning more. Last year i used a ram tester and marked the stiff spine of all my arrows. Than i went on to bare shaft tuning and found only 2 out of 12 arrows shot a perfect bullet hole. So after that its a bare shaft/nock tuning from here on out. No more ram testing. Awesome videos, appreciate all the info you have to offer.
A lot of folks don’t get good results from a Spine tester because they don’t know how to use it properly and what to look for. But I still bareshaft tune, and nock tune each arrow, but when I use a Ram tester, and check spine, mark each arrow, and then install nicks and points and check straightness with Ram, bareshaft tuning is then cut to 15 minutes if it were to usually be an hour. I can shoot bareshafts as far as I want to shoot them
What you are talking about is static spine vs dynamic spine. You are correct in your thinking about weight in the middle vs force applied to the end of the shaft. Some gurus even think spine alignment is a fallacy when talking about carbon shafts considering how they are made. I believe its a hold over from the old aluminum or wooden arrows where spine was paramount for paradox off the shelf to work. We dont have that worry with modern equipment.
Aluminum doesn’t have a stiff side it’s extruded
Aluminum doesn’t have a stiff side it’s extruded
Troy big fan of your work, in this case I think most people are not measuring the current spine of the arrow they are running, I would guess that they are primarily using the RAM tool to spine align each arrow to potentially take out some of the guesswork that comes along with bare shaft tuning. As you say you will have a consistent set of arrows which may allow you to shoot one and have a platform from which you adjust all the others. Assuming they have started with the correct spine on the arrows in the beginning.
I spine index a dozen shafts, then paper tune the first shaft, nock tune so it’s flying as perfect as I can get it. Then do the rest of the set. It just gives me an easier starting point for the next 11 shafts. I still have to tune those shafts. But I’m not necessarily having to start from scratch each arrow.
Still loving the vids and excellent information! Finally had a chance at a deer with the new set up and crushed her. Keep it coming! Maybe one day we can get together and do some tuning.
It is my understanding that you spine index the arrow to get the spine top dead center and then mark the arrow spine at top dead center. Then rotate your knock to Align with the spine so that when you shoot your arrows the spine of the arrow is in line with your bow string, with the spine on top. I can see how this helps and might cut back on the number of shots it takes to bareshaft tune but one would still need to baresahft shoot the different weight field point/broadheads to see what works best for their setup.
Yes. The reult is less bare shaft nock tuning.
Not one arrow company will detail their guidelines for so called spine testing or spine alignment. There is no Standard in the industry. This way they each can say about anything they want in the marketing BS. How much effort is put into spine aligning 10 million shafts? How truly accurate is the spine determination tools for consistency in a million shafts? Plus, how important is it in hunting arrows? How many real world class archers do spine and spine alignment testing? Very very few I’m betting. Nock tuning is probably about all. But, this video is really great because it’s this type information so many have no concept. There are literally thousands of shooters that have little to ZERO knowledge of the importance of getting the best arrow flight possible. I’ve actually seen guys that are so ignorant of the technical side of archery equipment they believe they are 100% ready to hunt if they can get a broadhead to hit a paper dinner plate at 20 yards. I wish every newbie “ bow hunter” would watch videos of your arrow information. It would save the a lot of grief on trying to kill a deer.
My thoughts too - 1st paragragh, but.......to add.......what is the marking? Is it a stiff side or the weak side?
Is it marked as one or the other?
Home testing lets you know which is the weak side so it is common sense to support this on the arraw rest & work from there.
Mick.
I started with the test kit a month ago again but last year I had the arrows spine aligned from sirius but its just a good starting point for your nock. I think every one of the arrows I built last year nock tuned to a different position than where the spine alignment mark was and no 2 were the same.
I index mine on a Coops bowsmith spine tester, then use it to spin the inserts with broadheads and make them true. Then I bareshaft tune through paper at different distances. I see it as being just another tool in the bag, like using a smaller bit to drill a pilot hole as a starting point for drilling a bigger hole. Spine testing should be seen as a compliment to the process not a replacement
Troy, I think you made a great argument and agree that spine indexing is a wonderful additive start point to the “process”. With this in mind, I think it would great if you took a set or two of bare shaft tuned arrows to someone with a RAM tool, so everyone can see where the spine alignment ends up relative to the final cock vane position. I believe there would be a lot of value in that.
PS: better get a shout out if you make that video 😂
It is on the scroll of "to do" . However, I did have a company send spine aligned arrows and 5 of 12 were nails on the spine alignment. The other 7 (all bare shaft) had a minor amount of nock tune to be done. I believe this shows the variability in ME.
Great video! Very similar to a concentricity gauge for reloading. You know the bullet is straight but you haven't done anything with powder amount or seating depth. No guarantee it shoots just because it's consistent.
GrizzlyStik offers two arrow test packs in different spines for their tapered high FOC Momentum carbon arrows. Going to try the RF test kit field points with them and see what happens. I shoot the Sirius Apollos now and have bare shaft and nock tuned them following your YT video instructions. Not sure if spine indexing would have saved me any time.
When you realize the paradoxical laughter and debate are with the voices in his head 🤯
Ok question from the back of the class. To start I'm a trad wood arrow guy so perhaps I'm just out of touch with the carbon thing. I thought you spine index after the bare shaft tuning ? Like your other vid where you adjusted that fly away arrow by turning the nock?
The flight of the arrow also depends on the shooting technique and bow settings.The best shooters can shoot an arrow without feathers at 50-60m and the arrow flies smoothly, provided of course that everything is OK with the arrow.The bow is adjusted to the shooting technique, namely, twisting the handle of the bow.
Troy, the point of spine aligning the arrow shaft is to find the overlap of the carbon wrap of the arrow. It is believed by many in the archery community that the only real important factor to arrow flight from the bow in regards to the flexing of the arrow is the stiff Vs weak points on the shaft. They don’t care if it flex’s from a weight in the center or the stress from a rear push.
The people I’ve spoken to who like to use spine alignment instead of nock tuning or bareshaft tuning say they don’t believe people can shoot well enough to see a significant difference between spine aligned and bareshaft tuned arrows.
I am in the bareshaft camp myself. I don’t use spine alignment. The most I would use it for if I purchased a set of arrows already spine aligned is a reference or starting point for bareshafting.
This. I agree that most humans can't shoot well enough to tell the difference. There's too much error, especially when you know what arrow you are shooting. You'd need a buddy to hand you an arrow and not tell you where the nock is in relation to the stuff side of the spine. You'd need your buddy to do a lot of things, actually, but it's ridiculous.
@@YoureSoVane
Good is the enemy of great
If it works - go for it
Spine indexers use a 2lbs weight suspended in the middle of the arrow at 28".
I run GrizzlyStik 170’s 30” 750TAW and if you look close you can see where the seam/overlap of the carbon fiber is. This is typically the thickest part of the shaft = stiffest. I always run that seam up and all my arrows are consistent through multiple different “dozen sets”. Now for the spine indexing theory, I think the what it will do is have that initial flex go in a consistent direction. Now just for simplicity, we’ll use X and Y axis. If your stiffest point is on the X axis, I’m thinking your arrow will flex more on the Y axis and vise-versa. I still always bare shaft tune and incorporate 1 bare shaft arrow in rotation when I practice. Side note, I think Grizzly stiks are the original suppliers of test kits.
Here’s the basic concept of shaft dynamics and spine indexing that I was taught.
An arrow has two planes within the shaft and are perpendicular to each other; a stiff plane and a neutral plane.
The stiff plane has the following characteristics:
-the stiff plane runs 180dg through the shaft, i.e., from 12 o’clock to 6 o’clock positions
-dynamic flexing does not occur in the stiff plane
-the stiffest point of a shaft is always in the stiff plane
-the measured spine at the stiffest point is not relevant, but only that the stiffest point is found and used to index the fletching.
The neutral plane has the following characteristics:
-the neutral plane is where the dynamic flexing occurs
-the neutral plane runs perpendicular to the stiff plane, i.e., from 3 o’clock to 9 o’clock positions
-the neutral plane is where the spine is measured for spine-matching a set of arrows.
To spine-index a set of arrows, use a spine tester to identify the stiffest point of a shaft. Then use this location as an index mark to locate and apply your fletching for all of your arrows within a set. Typically for a set of arrows, the stiffest point is placed(indexed) either inline with the cock vane, or placed(indexed) between the hen vanes. Whichever index position is used, do the same for all of the arrows of that set.
To spine-match a set of arrows, you measure the spine 90dg from the stiffest point, on both sides, and use the weakest number of the two as the matching spine number.
WHY do people seem to fight SO hard against simple logic and SHOWN evidence... everyone's bow/grip/arrow setup is different... but PLEASE think through, and accept the honest advice... the process is honest and true...
They're not indexing the spine to the same measurement of deflexion arrow to arrow. They're finding the weakest direction of deflexion for each arrow individually. It's working on the assumption that when your bow's power stroke is perfectly down the arrow, the shaft will always bend in its weakest direction. If you make the weakest direction of each arrow in the same direction, when you go to nock tune you'll be close.
Dan has indoctrinated you and nope.
I advocate for using the exact launcher (your bow) under exact conditions - you Shooting it. AND THEN let the combination of arrow and bow and you shooting it - show you what it wants to eat.
Like handloading anmo.
@@RanchFairy spine indexing and precision hand loading have a ton in common. Consistency is everything and a dial indicator showing where the weak side of the arrow is can’t hurt. Just like a gunsmith using a dial to spin up a barrel or an F class shooter using a dial to check the concentricity of their hand loads.
I’m not saying there isn’t merit to nock tuning, I still do it, but starting with my nocks all in the same orientation in relation to the strong and weak side of the arrow makes nock tuning much faster.
@@RanchFairy dude I don't disagree with you, and idk who dan is. Elk Shape? I didnt watch that spine indexing video that intently so idek what he did. And i think the way he called you out for having never killed an elk and acted like it derailed the physics and data you showed that group was douchey af. And how has elk shape convinced me of a damn thing if i shoot a 555gr 22% foc with a cuttthroat on the front of it. That was YOUR doing lol. And I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I'm simply saying that spine indexing should be done so that each arrow's weak direction goes the same way if that's what you're going to do. Like Victory arrows spine indexing. I took what you said to mean something totally different. What Victory does with their arrows has gotten me 90% of the way to nock tuning every arrow. My cuttthroats hit the bullseye at 30 yds, right where my bareshafts and field points go. I think we might be saying the same thing and misunderstanding one another.
@@dominicdevito exactly, there's other variables that make victory's system imperfect and it calls for nock tuning. But.... I'm happy to share my 60 yd groups, they're 3/4 in a 3-4" bullseye and I'll have one miss. And my arrows are numbered it's not the same arrow. I've yet to miss that same bullseye with a fixed blade (from 30 yds, I haven't shot my BHs past 30) if I do my job.
@@joegarrigues3697 here’s my thinking. If nock tuning works because there is a stiff and weak side of the arrow, then if I spine index a dozen, nock all arrows with the stiffest side being top dead center, and then nock tune ONE arrow. Let’s say that arrow nock tunes at 4 o’clock in reference to my original index mark. I bet you the rest of the 11 arrows will be right on or damn near 4 o’clock too. I don’t think people are using indexing as a final step… but it has sped up the process of Nick tuning for me by hours. Oh and if one of the arrows isn’t flying well at 4 o’clock position, then likely that arrow won’t fly well in any other position either and it gets culled out. Just my experience. Oh and you don’t need a dial indicator, just throw your arrows in the bathtub, they will index themselves.😂 I never thought this could be so controversial. It’s nothing more than a way to make nock tuning faster.
I read a comment today that was interesting. How do you feel about this method:
Put a field point in each end of the arrow shaft, put the arrow in between your bow press arms, and press the arrow until it flexes. The arrow will flex toward the weakest part in the shaft. After it flexes in that direction, align it vertically so that the arrow flex is like a rainbow, and mark the top of the arrow.
Why not launch it under the exact conditions with your bow?
When I see a new RF video I do the ruck flair woooooo
I think you're kind of out there in never-never land. Simply, if you have the same weight arrow and the same weight point and identically spined arrow (which is close to impossible of course) with yield identical POIs (which is not as impossible as you might think it is), and shoot them out of a bow that is a well made with precisely made parts theoretically your POI will be same hole consistently for as far as your bow can shoot. And I've done that out to 100 yards with 2 400fps bows. And if you have more than one bow of the same poundage and precision, your POI's will vary so little as to be insignificant. Assuming you can shoot the bows equally well. The only other variable you should have to worry about is wind direction and velocity, humidity (thickness of the air), temperature, and any other environmental factor you can think of. If you want to introduce another factor, like point weight, you're simply negating all the positive things you've been careful about, like spine and precision made equipment. That doesn't make much sense unless you goal is simply to fiddle around.
Good stuff as always, have U had a chance to play with the gimini arrows, I no the Apollo's r tough..
I have - they are great - just a price point issue
I’m thinking this would be a good starting point for bare shaft tuning. This would help reduce the variability when changing out point weights… maybe…🤷🏼♂️
Ok, yes I see you did grasp the concept now after reading that 11 month old exchange.
Those guys got the same impression from the vid as myself, that it was a little misunderstood at the time of publishing or maybe not conveyed in that manner.
I do agree, every bow is unique, but it doesnt hurt to start out with a little science to help things along prior to bare shaft. Its a consistant starting point.
Mick.
My preference is to buy spine matched arrows. And then shoot them to determine the points of impact. And then I select those with the most similar points of impact and they become the arrows that I ultimately do a final sight in with. I recently bought six .001 Raven arrows (not spine matched apparently and not custom arrows). I'm not done testing yet but it appears that three of those have POI's similar enough for me to confidently group within a couple of inches out to 80 yards (at this point).
Something else to think about. You ram test at the middle of your bare shaft. After you add point, insert, vanes, nock. The balance point of the shaft has changed negating all the ram testing.
You would almost have to re test the complete arrow at its new balance point for a more accurate result
When they test shafts, they test at the center point. After adding all the components, the balance point might be only a couple of inches behind the broadhead and the arrow would flex very little at that measurement point. I don't bare tune or spine test but it seems like a smart practice if you want great flight and want to do it yourself.
My bow is set at 63 pounds, 28 inch draw. I bare shafted last year, I shot a 250 & 300 spine from 200 to 300 grain points.
Not 1 250 flew straight all flew side ways, when I got to the 300 spine I got 2 that flew straight. 200 grains up front & 300 grains, flew like darts.
So in conclusion for my bow & set up, im running a 28 1/4 inch 300 spine arrow, 100 grain ethics insert & 3 different 200 grain broadheads all shoot dead money. With a total arrow weight of 584 grains.
200 grain 3 blade, 200 grain vpa with a 35 degree bevel & 200 grain Tuffhead evo 2.0. Last season I killed a nice 10 point buck at 22 yds facing me, I shot him just above the brisket. Went in cut 2 of the major vessel's coming off the heart, cut down both sides of the lungs, through his liver into his stomach, exited his stomach through his belly, went into back leg & the only thing left hanging in him when I found was the nock dangling out of his back leg, he only went 60 yds & died in about 15 seconds. Cleaned the arrow up, popped a new nock in, re stropped my broadhead & its ready to go again. I have pictures of everything minus the guts, but both entrances & both exits.
I know this is a long winded comment, but the results were so awesome I had to share with you. Love & appreciate what you're doing Mr.Troy, I can't begin to thank you enough for how much you've helped me with all this stuff & the results speak for themselves. I really appreciate everything & God Bless you Brother!
HECK YA!!!!!
Ŕealy would like you to talk about the çross bow and those arrows
Use a cabinet clamp to compress and arrow. This is the same as the compression between the head inertia and string kinetics. The clamp will bend the arrow in the same way the bow does and show the DIRECTION of the spine.
You can spine index by shooting all your arrows bare shaft. Turn the nock 90 degrees and find the best tear for each arrow. This will require a lot of shooting, and require you to weed thru the bad releases as those will give you a bad tear (bad data).
My process...
1. "Theory Craft" my arrow on Archers Advantage Online. It's cheap, saves me a ton of time, and I've been using it for years now. Every arrow build has worked (eventually) if the calculator says it will in my experience. You can load almost and bow in there, and select from every brand arrow shaft I can think of.
2. Build arrows without fletching them yet. I use "cold melt" glue if I'm not sure I want to stick with my components yet.
3. Spine Index arrows (I've gotten a little lazy with this as it's very tedious, not sure how much difference it makes. I've been told my brand of arrow is indexed along the fine print on the label)
3. Fletch a few arrows, make sure you're orienting the fletching with the indexing marks the same way on each arrow, and loading them on the bow all the same way.
4. Shoot at 20 yards. Bare shaft first, followed by a fletched.
5. Tune bow until they are hitting within 1/2'' of each other. You have to weed thru the bad shots while doing this. If I think I've got it, I verify a few times to make sure.
5a. I've had to move my cams a lot to get this right, especially if it's a new bow, or a significantly different arrow setup than the last one.
5b. I try to leave my rest as centered (13/16'' off riser) as much as I can. If small movements aren't making a difference, you probably need to move the cams.
6. Repeat step 4 & 5 at longer distances (40 yards is plenty)
7. Now test your broadheads. If you're broadheads and field points aren't hitting together at this point, you might need to try different fletching. This happened to me recently when I went to a heavy 3 blade setup. My typical "Max Stealth 3 fletch" was the weak link. Changed to a "Max Hunter 4 fletch" setup and it fixed the problem. Broadheads and field points are hitting together out to 60+ yards
do you find you need to shaft tune for broadheads once you get them tuned to feild points ive nock tuned my arrows and then with a broad head their off a bit same weight as feild points maybe myt nock tuning is of fjust something i wondered or do you nock tune a set of broadhead arrows and a set of feild point arrows
Are the broadheads just low or inconsistent?
If the latter, I would see my 4 fletch tuning video, in the ordering and arrow tuning playlist.
If 3 fletch - same process but use a broadhead.
Are the broadheads wide? If over 1.25".....I can't help you. Wides are finicky,
I get this is for content. So here is my take on this, as I've done it now! The spine index gets you close. Not every arrow is the same. Yes they are all pretty straight. Yet you can find the weak side and the arrow not be perfect. So it may come off the bow. I've had to learn to spine index by hand before I got the machine. It was feeling where the arrow humped back up. And no it's not perfect but it gave me a starting point. I mark the arrow. What we are all trying to do is get the arrow to come off the bow straight. And fly true , and as consistent as possible. The next test is shooting bare shaft and nock tuning. By spine indexing your getting the arrow to come off the bow in a certain spot , so I mark it. I do it the same way for each arrow. Once you have done this enough you will understand what works. I like my weak side pointing into the bow. Once I start nock tuning it's to find where that arrow comes off the bow consistent bare shaft. Once I'm confident it's shooting right I mark my high side of the arrow so I know where I want to fletch.
Now all this Dan says and mjff says and Snyder says can go out the window! You have to do this for yourself. Stop listening to everything everyone else says and go do it. The ranch fairy isn't perfect either , for the love of all things holy he's insane , but he is pointing you in the direction of testing your gear! Some days the internet is just so dumb!
Does temperature affect the arrows and bow Like reload ammunition ? I don’t get the bending arrow stuff . I know ppl check the thickness of their brass when reloading.
No idea
Paid extra for spine indexed shafts, but bare shaft nock tuning did not relate spine test marks consistently.
Dammit man. Don’t tell
Anyone that crap. You actually tested it?
😂 😆 😹
One of my main considerations. Why not double check it ? I found the same thing with spine aligned arrow. 5 of 7 were great - 7 needed a small nock tune and BOOM. Perfect
Good thing there wasn't someone walking by when ole' boy sent an arrow through his wall.
What if u could pull an arrow from the front
Makes sense
I bought spine aligned arrows and still had to turn the nock on a few. Now I just nock tune.
All you said makes sense to me. I'm thinking that spine indexing might help would help Darrel create a formula in predicting the 'Dynamic Center of Pressure'? Since there is a ' δ' involved. Oh, hey, thanks! You saved me $24.00!
The problem here is you are not seeing the physics behind indexing
The stiff side is not where the arrow bends. It bends 90 degrees from the stiff side. This is the dynamic weak side
So I am still pondering this.
If someone runs 65# at 28"
then someone else runs 60# at 28"
and then someone else runs 55# at 28"
Is the bending rate for all three platforms exactly the same?
doesn't one of those push harder than the others?
So then could the index be different?
Because of the point wait on the front of the Arrow when you drive it from the rear the first thing that happens is the arrow bends in the middle before the front can move that's why it's exactly the same
So if it's a light point - What happens?
Please someone tell me if I am way off, but isn't RF talking about 2 different things?
1) spine indexing - where is the spine along the circumference of the arrow (what a RAM will tell you), and
2) finding the correct spine arrow for your conditions and arrow set-up?
The spine indexing is only useful if you have a known correct spine, the other is what I would call arrow tuning.
Holy CRAP someone listened!!!
This is exactly what I said
@@RanchFairy 1st of all, I'm a huge fan, and you've helped me a ton with your videos and emails getting my stuff set up over the last couple of years so thanks. With that being said, your video does come off a little confusing, but sounds like Andrew McGaha hit the nail on the head and you confirmed it with your comment to him. Your video makes it sound like you're thinking people are using a ram tester in lieu of running their hand load, (trying different spines/point weights/draw weight's/etc). If people are using a ram tester in lieu of that process, then they obviously have no idea what they are doing! However, if people have already gone through the hand loading process and are choosing to use a ram tester for spine alignment in lieu of nock tuning, I suppose they could be on to something. I personally wouldn't do it that way, because there's no possible better substitute for nock tuning each individual arrow as you've stated. But perhaps if one were to spine align each arrow on a ram tester, (after they've got their hand load figured out), it could speed up the nock tuning process? I guess I'll never find out, because I won't be wasting money on a ram tester, nock tuning is all part of the fun imo!
@@mattsherrets6084
Correct. The main point I should have said clearly. The ultimate launch test for your arrows is your launcher.
The Bow in your hand, is the ultimate result. It gives the exact results, under the exact conditions you will be shooting every day.
There are arrow manufacturers who do this for you?
So are all the nock tuners making sure the nock end of their arrows are squared? That any bushings are inserted squarely and not damaged? Likewise with the nock itself? Because those are all things that nock tuning can fix (or hide depending on your point of view) I would go as far as to say nock component squareness and condition are far more important factors than spine index. I think that we are really correcting nock flaws rather than arrow flaws when we nock tune. Seriously, next time you think you need to nock tune, square off the end of the arrow and install a brand new nock. Voila, it's magic.
My take on this is to go the other direction.
That is, bare shaft first, find the right arrows/setup and then use this rig to "diagnose" what you've done and, possibly, to be able to easily recreate the setup.
At least you're reasonable!!!
I think most of those guys tune their bow to the arrow. Because that’s what I used to do but 1-2 out of a dozen would be a flier so I went back to bare shaft to get all to flying right. Plus you have to work on being consistent
Okay this post is gonna be good 👍! 🏹🦌🏹🦌🏹🦌🧚♂️
My opinion is that you should test different spined arrows; and bare-shaft and knock tune to find the preferred arrow shaft. Measuring and marking the spine of each shaft would then make knock tuning much faster; because inevitably the stiffest part of the arrow will rest at either 12:00 o’clock or 6:00 o’clock for the entire set of arrows.
But alas. Is 12 or 6 always the case for perfect?
I’ve not found that to be the case
@@RanchFairy Well; that’s why I said it makes the process faster. Nock tuning shouldn’t be omitted; but after building the arrows the nock tuning takes very little tweaking with my arrow builds. I’m sure results will vary; and everyone should start with a timed bow that is properly set up. I think you have a video on a trip to the bow mechanic. Your process works. Single bevel broadheads on heavy arrows zip through deer. Finding the proper arrow spine and tip weight for proper flight with bare shaft tuning works. Once I’m nock tuning all of my arrows, I like easy.
I agree 100 percent. I made a spine indexer at my house for about 10 bucks if anyone is interested I can explain how. But I did so just to see if I could bare shaft 1 arrow and then match the spine Index to the 1 arrow I bare shafted. SHORT ANSWER IS NO. Every spine Index was in a different orientation after bear shaft tuning them all. The spine Index did not matter at all. My guess is that the spine Index is not consistent from the front to back of the arrow. so your right if you push it from the back the arrow bending in the middle is arbitrary. My bet is the apex of the bend is probably at the Center of gravity maybe. And if thats the case then maybe you could spine Index at the center of gravity, but you will still have to bare shaft
More coming on this. But the launcher (the bow) pushes from the back
You're holding it and maybe a little torque
So I cannot see how they correlate.
Other than spine indexing makes them consistent, but I don't know if consistent means anything.
You did a session with a rocket scientist guy sometimes back and perhaps you can present him with this hypothetical. I am thinking that when the string is released there is an instance where the force is transferred through the shaft when it reaches the nock, the shaft straightens for a micro-second before it begins its final bend. I think his name is Mike.
So in all the folks I've talked to. The nock starts moving (logically this is the point of contact with the string) and the point is much heavier, sitting still. Shaft BENDS, then arrow launches.
Bare shaft and ram testing definitely isn’t an “or” scenario. Dan over at elkshape just went through a great video of the worlds most expensive arrow. He used his ram tester to find the “weakest” point in his set of arrows. Because they are Easton’s, and they are extruded, there isn’t a “spine alignment” option listed on the arrow from the factory. Ram testing all of them allowed him to find the weak spot and then he went to bare shafting them. From one bare shaft test subject he was able to index all the others, because he marked the weak spot and matched it to the rest of his batch. Dorge Huang of firenock has taken testing arrows to a new level and is able to pinpoint multiple spots of different weaknesses on his arrow shafts. He uses this information to find the best way to make an arrow recover faster in flight, which translates to more energy down range, along with launching off the bow the same every time. Both ram testing and bare shaft tuning are important, just to different aspects of how your arrow interacts with your bow.
Good old Dan. He finds ways to make things super difficult with equipment most people don’t have
To find a shortcut that may or may not work.
I like how you constantly explained how you don't know what you're doing, because then when you get it completely wrong you still tell the truth 😂😂😂
It's about nock tuning. When you rotate the arrow you can find the side that bends the most and bends the least. Then you simply align all of your nocks to that point as the baseline. That way you have a starting point in case only one is wonky. As for weak side being up or down, that depends on your form. See what works for yourself.
It's not replacing spine matching your arrows. The spine tester is only for the stiffness of the arrow, not it's weight. The weight of the shaft plays a small but not insignificant role in the dynamic spine of the arrow. Two arrows of the same spine and front weight but different GPI will spine out differently. The same bow, same KE, but the arrow with a heavier shaft will spine out weaker than the lighter shaft of the same point weight. That's because every inch of the shaft has to accelerate as well. The inch in front of the nock has to resist the remaining 29" or so plus the additional 150 grains (or whatever weight you like) up front.
A bare shaft that stabilizes quickly is good. That can be achieved by reaching a harmonic node, absorbing more vibration, or reducing the magnitude of initial oscillation. You can mask tuning errors by doing the first two, but ultimately tuning is just removing or reducing the unwanted vectors.
You went in about 3 directions.
So, I will address some of the comments in future videos.
"As for weak side being up or down, that depends on your form. See what works for yourself."
So, shoot the bare shafts and see what works? You mean nock tune? Got it!
@@luck35ksu I mean sure, you have to do it at least once. When you figure it out for a given arrow, you can buy more of that model and just measure them, instead of numbering and shooting each one. It'll help remove the human error of checking each shaft.
It's like assembling a jigsaw puzzle. Sure, you can just grab any two pieces randomly and see if they fit together, and then grab another piece and repeat. Eventually, you'll assemble the puzzle, but you'll make more mistakes and it'll take forever. Instead you can check the picture on the box and start at the edges, knowing already what the finished product is supposed to look like.
If the end result of nock tuning is the natural spine being aligned on the top or the bottom of the arrow, why start with 360 possible solutions? Figure out which plane it's in, and just solve it for two possibilities instead.
@@luck35ksu UH...yeah...that's exactly what I mean. Nock tune with YOUR launcher!!
You pay attention
Your mistaken on some of your information presented
Valkyrie has and has had test kits.
If spine aligning is so useless, why does Sirius provide it for a fee?
Because AS I SAID - they will be consistent
Also, many people (customers) want it done. It is popular in many circles.
Raw doggin is the best choice.
I bareshaft nock tune every brand of carbon arrows besides victory. Victory I go by their spine alignment mark.
I always bare shaft test to confirm but I have yet to have an arrow not shoot a bullet hole after spine indexing them.
Never is 100%. That’s pretty solid
I've only done about 3doz arrows this way so far but it works for me. I shoot with the stiff side up.
@@joshbriele325
Just need to clarify.
Fletched or Bare Shaft?
I did say spine indexing will make them consistent. So we have that in common
Bare shaft. First time I tried this I found the stiff side and marked it. Then slid insert w field tip in and put on an arrow spinner. I rotate the insert until I find a spot where there is zero wobble and then mark the insert and arrow aligning with the stuff side mark. Then paper tuned bare shaft and first shot was bullet hole with stiff side up..Next arrow same thing. I have since done 3 dozen arrows this way 2 different brands and have gotten bullet holes bare shaft on the first shot every time so far.
So essentially static vs dynamic spine.
The RAM tool is invaluable for other reasons to an arrow builder besides spine indexing. It also allows me to determine which end I should be cutting off to get the straightest final shaft possible. It also allows me to determine which end should get the nock if both ends are not equal straightness after cutting. It’s the straighter end btw. I do index the spine with it as well and load arrows with stiffest side up. This doesn’t mean I skip bare shafting and I think that would be a mistake. What it does do however is allow me to grab any random one, fire it through the paper, then tune my bow to make it shoot a bullet hole. After that in my experience they all will shoot a bullet hole and I don’t turn a single nock. This is not 100% and sometimes I still have one that won’t cooperate but that is usually due to inconsistencies in manufacturing because I always get .001 arrows and even cutting them to 29 I still get one occasionally that has a .002 or more wobble on one end so don’t believe any manufacturer guaranteeing anything. I do not adjust my entire setup for this one arrow it just becomes a practice arrow. Only arrows that make the .001 on BOTH ends make my hunting quiver. I understand the value of the arrow tuning kit but it seems that is for people with older bows or who don’t have the tools to tune their bow. I say that because when you find the one that your bow likes it might not meet one of your other parameters for your intended use. For example if you want a TAC arrow as opposed to your hunting arrow because most people don’t use a 650 grain arrow at long distance events, ones with divisions that don’t allow range finders or even western hunters shooting longer distances. Like we did back in the day when bows weren’t very tunable and you just tried different aluminum shafts til you found one that worked. Today it’s the other way around and you have the option of shooting any arrow you want and adjusting your bow to shoot it perfectly (within reason assuming you aren’t ridiculously under or over spined).
To the guy who shot through the wall, at least you got a bullet hole on that wall there 😝 ...🤣
Bear shaft nock tuning before fletching.
Obviously Ranch, you win the case in my opinion, it's called common sense 👍
🏹🎯
Grizzly Stiks offers test kits.
how do you use them?
do they tell ya what to do with them?
No, that’s why I watch your videos.
I'll allow it
My arrows come spine indexed. I still bare shaft nock tune them. My son shoots the exact same arrow our arrows are indexed about 15* different. They both fly perfectly and all of our arrows tune out that the index marks are lined up on each bow. Perfect flight and foc have been the best thing for penetration that I have found. 450-550 grains with 20% foc fixed 3-4 blade broadheads blow through everything here in North East Texas. We have settled at 505 grains and probably won’t change in the near future. Most of our shots are less than 25 yards.
It just makes sense……..
I think you have missed the point on spine indexing, it is to get the weak side of the spines all indexed to the same point on each arrow (down works for me) which has the same effect as nock tuning.
Dynamic spine testing is still best done as bareshaft testing, especially if finger shooting.
Gotcha.
FOR YOU, maybe down works best which is great. Here's the rub......there are millions of bowhunters.
Many different draw lengths.
Draw weights
Arrow spines.....different point mass which impacts bending rates.
So if it works for, you, 1 person. Does that make it the end all? The answer is no.
The best way to for people to become consistent is to use their launcher, pushing their arrow, bare shaft, under their launch conditions.
spine indexing does create a consistent set of arrows at launch. But is that the optimal launch condition? I promise you. It is not correlated.
The weight is 2lbs RF. You have become alot more knowledgeable over the years. Ram tester would be nice to have but not necessarily as excellent results can still be had. However most that use a ram still bareshaft tune so it's just extra device that can speed up the process.
Little nock right through the building. No pun intended.
I think we can all agree that if you have the money to spend on a ram tester,that it would be a great tool to have, but you should Also bear shaft
I made one for less than 20$. Check for DIY spine tester, you’ll find some options.
Common sense aint so common and too many smart ppl don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground. RF is grounded in common sense!
2 on Earth!!!
Day six offers kits
Well, first you do bare shaft tuning and then add spine indexing to get a perfect set of arrows. :-)
bare shaft is spine indexing. With your spine indexer - the bow.
All I know is my arrows come spine aligned and fly like crap until I bare shaft them. After I bare shaft, the spine aligned marks are at 12 o’clock 6 o’clock 1 o’clock and about 3:47am…and they are lasers…
SHHH don't tell anyone to actually check this stuff instead of relying on short cuts. It's offensive
case in point... got a dozen arrows, from sirius, spine indexed. Not a single one bare shafted at the same mark from the manufacturer. Some were pretty close. Granted I got 300 gr up front. none the less... nuf said. Bring on the hate
Spine tester was only meant to test the spine of the arrow when building wood arrow. ,end of conversation, I shoot bare shafts to tune for my wood bows,I build my arrows from shutes I cut from actual trees. So I have to spine my arrow ,the spine tester was meant for traditional wood arrows thats it, making something out of nothing
Well Troy, I'm probably going to get blasted for this like you do some of the time, but I have thought about this and in my opinion, this is a useless step. Bare shaft nock tuning is the way to go for me. I don't care what a shaft does while hanging from some machine. I care what it does when I SHOOT IT! Just my opinion for what it's worth, and that ain't much.
This is what I have found. I bought spine aligned arrows and they were 5 perfect and 7 needed one small nock turn.
I don’t know why people don’t want to put in the work?
from memory its 880grams thats the industry standard to test arrow shaft deflection from memory
It's amazing that people for 1000's of years ever hit anything with an arrow and stickbow 😆
I do it the cheap way, floating my bare shafts in the bathtub. The thickest part of the shaft were the carbon fiber overlays will face the bottom of the tub after spinning it on the water. I mark the top of the arrow with a grey sharpie and that’s the part of the arrows that will always face up. Works perfect.
And that makes them consistent (a great start) and I said that. But is it the perfect bending rate for your bow? Is the spine right ?
Launch them bare shaft - and if it is. Great
You are conflating spine indexing and bareshaft tuning, they are not for the same thing. A more direct comparison would be nock tuning and spine indexing. Bareshaft tuning is a more in-depth version of paper tuning and is designed to make the whole system perform the best together. If you want to do it all in sequence, spine indexing arrows, build them without vanes, nock tune your arrows, then bareshaft tune the system, and then group tune.
Yes, you are correct. What people want is no work, no effort and a magic solution.
Your strategy, which is mine, Is maximum effort and tune every single Arrow bare shaft.
Then fletch. So you and I understand this.
BUT ALAS, the rest of the world thinks "spine indexing" is a cheat code. It does create a consistent bending RATE (they bend the same)
So for those who want the cheat code!
Here's the question? Is that bending rate
the correct bending rate
for your bow / DL / DW? Most likely it is not.
Could just go w a set of victory arrows that are already spine aligned and be done w it... $$$ it's only money right 😅
Try it and let me know the results. BECAUSE......(well, I've tried it and it didn't work).
But facts are hard to swallow sometimes.
a 60# bow at 28"
a 65# bow at 28"
and a 70# bow at 28" ARE NOT pushing the same amount.
Slower single cam at 70# is NOT AN aggressive high velocity dual cam speed bow at 70#. I mean, the speed data is published at IBO for every bow on earth....
so is the alignment the same for every bow but every bow pushes differently?????
good luck with that!!!
Seen a guy “squeeze” the arrow from both ends which seem closer to shooting it? Yea? No?
Is he squeezing it at the same rate the bow pushes it forward? Is the squeezer "in tune".
Is the end of an arrow when launched pushed on a flat surface or pushing against the atmosphere while the nock end is on a string?
Hmmmm.
I don't understand, so you determine where the spine is! Now what? You can't change it. When you start knock tuning doesn't the spine index go out the window because now your arrows, not all of them will be shot with the spine up or down.
That's the point. People spine index and assume all is resolve in the glaxy. What has happened.
the set of arrow is consistent. BUT are they at the optimal position for your launch conditions?
Maybe.. 360 degrees of testing around the arrow!!
@@RanchFairy thanks Troy, respect from central west texas
The issue is this: the industry wants MONEY. Same in the car world is to create a solution for a “problem”. Issue is that the “problem” isn’t really a problem. Either get people scared of a “problem” or convince them them of a “upgrade” and people will spend money for the “solution”. As soon as you call BS or say it’s not necessary you become the village idiot. If archers are worried about saving time shooting… what’s the damn point? Part of shooting a bow is well having fun shooting the bow. No one ever said shooting too much was detrimental.
Ive always wondered why the standard line is to practice and shoot a lot. Why not spend the time bare shaft tuning as part of the regiment?
@@RanchFairy because that don’t make the big brands money lol. I’ll stick to the goofy RF method since apparently I know nothing either haha. Crazy that all of my hunting arrows go straight hmmmm even without thousands of dollars worth of stuff I have no clue how to use lol. Thanks for sticking to your guns and putting out good info troy!
I swear to you I have always said this to myself but I have never said it out loud.
It’s better if you don’t - people think you’re crazy 😜
@@RanchFairy Ahhh It all makes sense now. 🤣