I love how in the Lord of the Rings books, JRR Tolkien absolutely knew his stuff because he always mentions Legolas “stringing his bow” before combat, which is just a lovely detail that I appreciated very much
I quite liked Jim Butcher's Codex Alera for a similar reason. The main people that use archery have wouldcrafting abilities that allow them to flex massive warbows easier than a regular human.
Another thing in this video Tolkien specifically gets right: at one point in the Battle of Helm's Deep Legolas mentions that he has to switch to "knife-work" when the orcs start swarming over the wall he's shooting from (and he runs out of arrows). Legolas carries a melee weapon!
@@desmondk-o7148 it was reflected in the LOTR movie with Legolas carrying two short swords on his back which was a gift from the Dunedain Rangers. In the Hobbit movie, he uses a pair of Elven Knives to kill Orcs
While watching the part about keeping your bow unstrung I was like “oh yeah, just like a violin bow!” and then I was like… wait… because they’re also BOWS! 😭 they work the same way of course… I never realized that
@@Aethuviel I agree with the comment from @antinn7448 but the exception would be if it was a homemade bow or if it was 'repaired' along the way by someone not trained in how to correctly do it, or perhaps if it's a not Western style of violin bow. I can't imagine a non-Western style of violin bow functions much differently though. They still need to have tension and wood under tension for long periods without being loosened will warp.
I didn't even know those kinds of bows could/should be unstrung. I don't have any intention of learning such an instrument, but still good to know in case I ever end up writing about one.
My biggest pet peeve when it comes to depictions of archery is the "infinite strength draw" where the character fully draws their bow, aims, and then just holds it fully drawn like that as if doing so wasn't as strenuous as trying to hold a teenager aloft with one arm.
Yeah, I'm surprised it didn't make the list. I'd probably put it on #1. I struggle to hold a 70lbs bow steady, while a skinny a$$ teenage girl smaller than my dog can draw a massive 150lb war bow and hold a casual 10 minute conversation. I tried 150. I failed. Miserably...
@@ryanager8029 No, the problem I'm talking about isn't in the design of the character and the character's strength. It's that holding a bow fully drawn like that is very strenuous for anyone regardless of strength, so you 1. wouldn't be able to hold it for long and 2. it's just not how anyone would use a bow as your aim would get more and more shaky by the second as your arms gets tired, thus making your aim bad for no reason.
i can't remember what game it was, but there's a game where the longer you hold a drawn bow your aim gets shaky and eventually you release the arrow unintentionally
In defense of the Robin Hood TV show and the fact he was using a recurve bow in medieval England: they did explicitly say that he got his bow while overseas in the crusades. There are definitely many problems with that show but I always found that to be a particularly nice touch.
Doing acrobatics while talking - seemingly no script - didn't edit out the flubs - yet still be one of the most information dense videos I've ever seen. Fantastic stuff - genuinely super useful.
This man has big AuDHD energy, and if it's not a special interest delivered with full ND passion then goddamn I cannot even fathom the dedication it requires for him to know so much and be able to multitask about it so perfectly.
It was so well done, I started to think it was dubbed over until some later shots. Enough content creators struggle to get their audio clear when standing perfectly still that this level of movement with a mic is astounding.
Hey ! I'm an animator and want to thank you a lot for this! Everyone in the film/game/animation industry should watch this video once. Short and to the point. Thanks also for for showing all the different poses and everything. Good reference. Most of the time we have to research this in our free time or just make stuff up fast according to the storyboard and look up like 1 or 2 videos if even that. So having videos like yours is a valuable resource :)
It's a bit silly really that you aren't given the references of the things they want to create from the people hiring you. Or at least a period of time added where you can research it. I wouldn't have gone to the store I worked at and set up promotional displays so they were ready for when I actually did paid work because setting up the displays is part of the work. Researching for animations seems exactly the same to me.
@@GeekGamer666 Well, everything is standardised and corporate now, video game studios and Hollywood don't care about getting the finer details right in their games/movies, they just want to mass produce for maximum profit which is why writers and animators often have very tight timelines to deliver.
7:30 In Skyrim's defense, that extra momentum is actually a quirk in the physics engine that also affects spells and even melee weapons. In Skyrim, if an attack would deal more damage than a target has health, the excess damage is converted into momentum. This is why you often send targets flying with sneak attacks, you're simply dealing so much more than they can take. This is also the cause of what is colloquially known as the Skyrim Space Program, when a giant smacks you into the ground with enough force to launch you into the upper atmosphere.
Similar behavior occurs in Team Fortress 2 as well, and is especially noticeable with Spy's backstabs and the Huntsman, which often send even the Heavy absolutely flying.
number 9 is a reason i love the Ranger's Apprentice book series so much. There IS training, and they go through it with you, the reader. Archery, throwing knives, stealth, etc, all training given to the MC.
John Flanagan did a superb job of introducing archery to new readers. Telling Will to imagine he's try to get his shoulder blades to touch is a great way to focus on the correct muscles.🥰
They constantly mention having to string their bows, they never EVER stop practicing (at one point Will is named by two senior archers as the best shot in the land and yet he keeps practicing because he wants to be better), carry backup weapons, acknowledge the fact that shooting requires a fair bit of muscle, and when Will couldn't shoot for about a year(?) he had to relearn the muscle memory almost from scratch. Ranger's Apprentice really just is one of the best depictions of archers I've ever seen.
They constantly mention having to string their bows, they never EVER stop practicing (at one point Will is named by two senior archers as the best shot in the land and yet he keeps practicing because he wants to be better), carry backup weapons, acknowledge the fact that shooting requires a fair bit of muscle, and when Will couldn't shoot for about a year(?) he had to relearn the muscle memory almost from scratch. Ranger's Apprentice really just is one of the best depictions of archers I've ever seen.
I just learned about another incorrect trope: how arrows in flight are often shown straight and static when actually the arrow shafts are wriggling with kinetic energy.
In movies, comics, etc, absolutely. I love seeing arrows spiral & warp mid-flight. In games, it's _really_ not worth the effort, even for slow-mo shots (like the ones you see in Skyrim).
I play an Archer in a MMORPG and I ended up being not only pleased but satisfied that the devs took the time to perfectly animate the bows bend when drawing the string back in using the class's skills. And they take the time to perfectly program the cosmetics for the bow itself to bend to match the bows style in the attack skill. Out of all the cosmetics I have, one of the bows styles behaves like a compound bow during draw back and makes it feel like a heavy attack. Looks can be deceiving but these devs poured their hearts and finger tips into making sure that the bows draw mechanics matched real life as possible!
I would like to give more context to this story. Now I agree this is probably the origin of the trope cause the Odyssey has influenced a great deal of our modern storytelling. However It is not a user of this trope, but rather misunderstandings created it. First off Ulysses is the later Romanized version of the story. It’s a translation adapted from its original greek compilation by Homer. The Odyssey follows Odysseus (His og greek name) and most importantly to know he is a favorite of the Goddess Athena. Also the bow he fires was a gift which he had practiced with. He was also a hunter who commonly used bows quite a little. So he had the training, and experience. However the famous impossible shot does still take place after 20 years were we have very limited idea of the weapons he used and at least hasn’t used a bow in 10 years. However when he makes this shot its heavily implied it is made with the influence of Athena and her powers. So it’s explained how he can not have to shake off any rust as he’s magically enhanced. Even after he fires the bow some translations note a sigil of Athena appearing above the doorway Odysseus stands in as he kills the suitors. A representation that she is watching over him and helping him. This is just one of many times Athena helps Odysseus get advantages or helps him in his goals, or even outright saving his life during the Trojan war. Full disclosure I am not a historian or a specialist in Greek history, or the Epics im just someone who hyper fixated on them learned a bunch of history and has read multiple translations of them. So I could most definitely have some information wrong.
@@Goober440 i have to disagree : when you read the story, there is a lot of fights against indigenous people along the trip. Like... a lot. Odysseus is quite "barbaric", kills a lot of tribes just to gather food, etc... at least, till he eat all of his crew due to Circea, knowing theses porks are his crew... Plus, it"s not a good test for archery skill : it's not about accuracy, nor speed, just strengh. Only Odysseus could handle this tension, only him could draw the bow, and shoot an arrow with enough power to... shoot an arrow in a straight line trough 12 miserable meters, if the axes are separated one meter from another one. This is important : this legendary bow is absolutely crap. Mine is 41 lb strong, and i can shoot hundred meters. This one is supposedly so strong only a god-descendant can draw it, and... people can't shoot more than dozen meters with it ? Considering that odysseus is an excellent woodworker, this is NOT a bow. It's the most rough piece of junk you ever could have imagined.
@@flamandbenoit7247 ...What are you disagreeing with mob about? What does the fighting with indigenous people have to do with what they said? You didn't connect those. The point of shooting through the axe heads isn't the distance. It's entirely accuracy. With an incredibly heavy draw weight bow, if you're struggling to pull it back, you'll be wavering. Because it's easier to describe, imagine dart boards instead of holes in axe heads. If your arrow would go into the bottom of the 20 point sliver (close to the bullseve but outside it) that slight upward angle means you'll get through say 3 of the axes, but will hit the rim on the 4th or 5th. You need to be hitting a bullseye to make it all the way through. Again, doing that with a bow supposedly only Odie was strong enough to pull. Such a challenge prevents someone from winning if they draw the bow with terrible form to just send the arrow flying.
@@isaac_marcus we don't have he story of theses fights, but considering odysseus type of strategy , i can't imagine no bows implied. So, 20 years without shooting any arrow, it's a no. But yes, it was nitpicking. ---- And we said the same thing about the straight line of the test. But you're focusing on the wrong part : Any bow can do this. This is my point, not accuracy : You have a 160 lb warbow in your hands, but you can't pull it completely... the bow will still shoot. You can just lift 18kg, 41 lb, you will still draw the bow with 41 lb of force. even if it's a 160lb bow. Therefore, if nobody can draw the bow AT ALL, with ANY kind of force... it's not a bow. It's a raw, unbendable, piece of wood with an *untensionend* string attached to.. i mean... we saw the same video, a man can shoot with a ukulele ;) and a ukulele neck is not particulary bendy. Far less than a bow ! and since you can shoot an arrow with a berimbau (metal string, unshaped stick)...
@@Goober440 preemptive "edit" short version since my wording is anything but concise: in the version I read the point was that someone needed to pass a superhuman strength check in order to _attempt_ the skill check, not that the skill check required divine intervention to pass...this means a hell of a lot less than it sounds like though since "translations" tend to take extreme liberties even before you're talking about a story from an oral tradition that probably had thousands of versions before it was ever put to paper. -back to the original yammering comment: it isn't even so much a blessing of the gods thing either, at least not directly: the basic accuracy required for the shot is by no means considered impossible or even particularly difficult for a decent archer in the story instead the reason nobody can make the shot is because the required _path_ for the arrow to travel has almost zero drop: the bow in question is some "exotic" thing (from a writing-tropes standard it is a Magic Item but it's not supposed to be supernatural in-setting rather it is supposed to be something unique made with advanced techniques and materials) that was made specifically for him in an unspecified adventure-abroad prior to the story start. the bow has an *absurd* draw weight to the point where very few people can even _string_ it let alone draw it or use it effectively, the only way to make the shot in question was to actually use the bow to it's inhuman potential to get a sufficiently stiff (and thus heavy) arrow (to limit wobble I think? arrows flex a LOT in flight but I don't know if stiffness would actually reduce that since it's based on harmonic points, honestly a lot of the stuff in this section of the book read like it was poorly translated and possibly nonsense to begin with. I think the main point was that you needed to use a war arrow not a hunting arrow since both greek and roman cultures made a clear distinction between military and hunting archery) flying fast enough to have a low enough falloff to have the possibility to make the shot.
I LOVE THIS BOOK!!!! Halt does say to Will that "an unstrung bow is a stick" which probably means that Will should keep his bow strung and ready when a foe may be in the area.
@Kitten_abyss Glad you enjoyed it. I also recommend the Royal ranger series( A continuation of the story after book 12) and the brother band chronicles (same world as Ranger apprentice, but is about the viking sailors)
I really appreciate the attitude of "I'm not angry, just a bit disappointed" that you take to this list. Cause you're obviously skilled and trained so seeing stuff done wrong is going to get on your nerves, and rightly so, but at the same time you're not really ranting about it. But it has given me a bit to think about if I ever draw a character with a bow.
His attitude with archery in movies is much like mine in so much SF, when spaceships are flying like planes as if they are in atmosphere. Few shows/movies get it right. _The Expanse_ was a rare one that did.
@@NemoConsequentaeAnd not showing maneuvering thrusters even if they're mentioned - Star Trek is really guilty of that. "Thrusters only in Spacedock" but then we never see the plumes of the RCS firing or even see where they are on the spaceframe. You'd need multiple thrusters the size of a Rocketdyne F-1 engine to manage a ship the size of the original NCC-1701 and yet there's no ports visible anywhere.
Would not help. I know Asiatic archery consultants on movies that spent weeks working the cast only to have the director toss it all out becuase he did not like how it read.
It sucks because directors assume we value the action over the details but a LOT of people would actually love to be able to learn from movies. I don't learn anything from watching a fantasy archer in a movie but if I saw them carry their bow in a case I'd learn how bows worked in real life AND I'd feel way more immersed because it makes more sense when you think about it for a second.
9:27 - Coupled with when they show that character prior to using the bow really struggling to lift a 3-5 lb sword. But sure, the war bow, no problem. lol
I'd love to see a video expanding on #3, like, a video briefly discussing different and distinct archery techniques from different cultures and places.
Agreed. I'll enjoy immensely a video, regardless of length, or even a series of videos that digs into the topic. Especially when each style is compared to each other to see their strengths and weaknesses. Useful stuff, this video as it is in terms of writing reference. More so if there's a guideline of sorts for archery styles and cultures research topics.
That was really interesting! It gave me a bit more perspective on the Ranger's Apprentice series, and it turns out that for the most part it's hasn't done so badly on these points. Two things I'm not sure about - shooting flaming arrows and knocking aside other people's flying arrow's with one's bow - but it did seem to comply to these points, which was nice.
What about the 'unlimited quiver of arrows' trope? "That's not a flaw, that's the dream." Edit: This is a joke. Most of the games with archers I'm familiar with have unlimited quivers of arrows, which is why I called it a trope. Was joking that this is also inaccurate, but in a way most real-life archers would probably find enjoyable, so it gets a pass instead of being called out as a flaw.
That’s just movie makers not wanting to show people finding or retrieving new arrows. Though showing this limitation can/should make for more interesting fights
@@TheEquestrianGallade BG3 uses alot of things from 5e so arrows wouldnt be that expensive, but they seem to run on a very popular house rule of only tracking special ammo. iirc 20 arrows only cost 1gp, so it would be tedius but very very doable.
@@KikinCh1kin just buy 1000 of them at the start of the game and dont worry about it, not like you have limited bag space, it not being an actual problem to overcome is probably why they didnt include that
Talking about this "need for training after a time without shooting" remembered me the book series "Rangers". I found it pretty realistic on that matter.. it's an amazing series, of you haven't read it, I definitely recommend!!
Do you mean John Flanagan’s Rangers Apprentice series because if so, I agree. I spent the entire of the video going “Ranger Apprentice doesn’t do this, go John”, and was hoping someone else knew the series. It is such a good series.
in Princess Mononoke you can see Ashitaka stringing and unstringing his D-bow and also the torsion of the samurai bow because their archers shoot traditional war yumi kyudo style, and I love every second of it
I think another piece of media that has been fairly good is the Ranger's Apprentice series. While the rate of fire may or may not be improbable at times (it's a book, you can't tell how fast they shoot all the time), you can go through all these tropes and find them holding up (character trains to re-gain skill, unstringing a bow, even a justification as to using a recurved bow rather than a longbow).
RANGERS APPRENTICE!! It’s literally my favorite fantasy series ever. I took up archery and knife throwing because of it! I have a cloak! What’s your favorite book?
Number 9 and 4 can be particularly tricky in writing because the entire point of a crossbow is to bypass the skill and physique requirements of a bow, so if you make archery effortless in your world, and then later you wanna add in crossbows, you're kinda stuck on how to make it different.
For those that haven't shot before, most of the (olympic) draw is done with your back, not your biceps like a normal gym lift. You can see it in the video when he has his shirt off how his back contracts a lot. Most people won't weight train that muscle group so doing something like archery takes an adjustment while you get good form. You're also "lifting" the weight of the bow with one arm, so a war bow is a lot of weight if you're not used to it.
@Krigalishnikov exactly, people in Gyms don't train their backs/sholders to do a strong pulling motion sideways. It's like pressing your two shoulder blades together behind you. Best equivalent would be to rip something apart right in front of your chest but without emphasis on your arm muscles. I'm shooting a 40lbs hunting bow and I'm not big at all. It mostly takes good technique and a bit of underarm strength for holding the bow and string and not letting go. In my archery club most have reverted to lower draw weights already because there's hardly any benefit from going from around 35lbs to around 50lbs. The motion just gets harder and you won't be as concentrated after half an hour or so, meaning you won't hit anything anymore.
Fun fact about backup weapon with bows. I had to look up medieval weapons that are often used in fantasy settings, and do some research in all of them. (I was creating my own ruleset for my own TTRPG campaign, and I wanted to give each and every weapon it's own niche and identity.) Turns out warhammer was actually originating from archers using longbows. It was a small headed hammer they carried around to create their own defenses (like spikewalls) against enemy charges. If any foe managed to get close enough, the hammer came handy, especially against plate armor. When people realized this, they gave longer shafts and a spike to the hammer - and that's how one type of an actual warhammer was born.
@bodyno3158 yeah, even though their muscles aren't built for swinging stuff so much as drawing the bow (making them likely more clumsy in close combat and comparatively weaker to their feats with a bow over a swing) I still wouldn't want some guy who is basically tossing around 100+ pounds of force daily to hit me with a hammer. Especially if you are in plated armor... it's likely gonna cave in and you are gonna hate your life lol
Regarding weak archers… visited the maritime museum in Portsmouth and the Mary Rose exhibit where they had recovered longbows from a shipwreck. Over 150lb draw weight and the archer skeletons deformed from years of archery practice. Went to see a shipwreck and discovered some fascinating archery history.
No, no, don't you see?! It's point number 2, the instrument doesn't flex, so all the tension comes from the string! That means you need to make it a ukulele CROSSbow! 😄
Just to point a little fact, crossbows don't use elastic strings, they are "mounted bows". The ukelele bow can be turned into an ukelele over casing crossbow but it's still fantasy archery... which by the way, make it perfect for d&d... I would use a guitar though, more kick... 😂
He didn't invent that idea, it is a trope in a lot of books where a musician has to fight; he just showed that attempting to launch an arrow with a stringed instrument doesn't work because the instrument does not have flexible ends holding the string like a bow does.
I loved this video. I shoot olympic style compound, and it hurts to see these things sometimes. the funniest part to me is that for modern characters like hawkeye, it would probably make more sense for him to have a compound, especially for the longer holds because that's literally what makes compounds and recurves different, you can hold a compound in full draw forever if you need to.
I have two defenses for the Monster Hunter bow's Mega Arrow 9000: the standard arrows are huge, yes, but so are the bows and the Hunters wielding them are absurdly superhuman, they're basically siege weapons. Second: the "Dragon Piercer" special shot *does* have a lot of guff strapped to the arrowhead... but that stuff is _rocket boosters_ that carry their own weight and then some. [EDIT]: 9:25 And thank you for _that_ fanservice.
I was actually just about to come down here to defend it too lmao. The Hunters from Monster Hunter are superhumanly strong, not just capable of casually wielding a ballista as a regular bow, but also jumping off cliffs (that would leave regular people a fine red paste on the ground below) and walking away completely unharmed. Not only that, but the MH Bows are collapsible and some of their arrows (Dragon Piercer) have the ability to shoot through steel-plated behemoths, head to tail, without any loss in momentum, assisted, of course, by some ignited fuel source. They clearly have their own universal "rules". Physics works differently in their universe. That being said, the MH Bow is also relatively short range. It loses most of it's power if you step in or out of specific range. So there is, at least, *SOME* "realism" there.
I was gonna say, MH makes attempts to justify the absurdity of its weapons. The justification that goes the furthest is obviously how the Hunters are beyond peak human performance. An old fan theory even speculated they might be the remnants of a super soldier program from the setting's previous civilization since they got up to some...weird shit.
@@Evnyofdeath As further example of their absurdity (and further example of their superhuman-ness): they can eat an entire 5 course meal, including a whole roast, in one sitting, as the 'buffs' system in MH:W. It's anime logic x100, and I love it.
The hunters can also weild the great sword which I doubt is very usable in real life and like fly using the insect glaive. The game uses anime logic. It has the long sword and dual blades.
One series I know that gets all of this right is Ranger’s Apprentice. It’s a great book series, and I definitely would recommend it to anyone who enjoys medieval fiction.
A book I read once described someone as looking "like a leather bag full of steel cables". That seems ideal for an archer character, including this guy.
really love how you actually show the quick reaction hunting like shooting unlike what the archery club was telling me to do (put quiver in .. aim .. straighten bow arm with a slight bent .. pul string back to your earlobe .. release. You put quiver in.. aim .. pull back string to your jaw and release
Related: I'm surprised that you don't see Compound Bows depicted more often in modern settings to account for some of those things - especially because of how much easier it is to hold it at full draw for a longer period of time due to how it changes the type of muscular effort you expend and when while shooting with them. Those distinctions makes it better for different types of characters in ways that could be super interesting, especially when you have more than one character using a bow. As someone who's much thinner and also has some hypermobility, compound bows were FAR easier for me to use compared to composite or recurve back when I did archery when I was younger. As you pointed out using recurve & compound bows makes a huge difference in the level of musculature you expect from a character to be able to be effective with them, but especially when they're more deadly and that muscle power translates into how deadly the shot is. The added complexity in a compound bow's design also means that they tend to be carried more purposefully, and aren't as likely to be looped over the chest or assumed that they can be used like a bludgeoning instrument, which hopefully means that the other archer won't be doing that either and they both have backup options for close range. Especially when you have movies like *_John Wick_* where they have a plethora of different firearms, it'd be nice to get even a basic representation of the different types of bows and what sorts of shots or situations they compliment. (Thanks for all the excellent videos on the subject!)
@@DK_HAXX Well, your _MONUMENTAL BIAS_ got directly in the way of the fact that this was about using Compound Bows for specific character archetypes as a way to help diversify the types of archers being portrayed in media in modern settings. Compound Bows benefit the types of characters _explicitly _*_NOT_*_ specializing in the quick & agile techniques that better suit Recurve & Composite Bows, who also have a means to use their stronger musculature to their advantage, and thus should be portrayed to emphasize that like the video stated._ The video ALSO mentioned that Olympic style *_has its purpose_* and that is explicitly NOT in allowing for agility or multiple rapid and consecutive shots, but RATHER being able to take your time to hit a precise target as accurately as possible - _something Compound Bows directly benefit by allowing the full draw to be held for longer._ Your Rogue archetype is MEANT to be remaining TOTALLY hidden from the enemy at a distance because they're more stealthy than strong, and have to be better at landing hits on specific vitals whilst keeping undetected, which is… _everything Compound Bows excel at enabling a character to do._ That type of sniping means often being forced to remain still VERY suddenly until you can choose to release your shot, and if you're at full draw - _that's easier done with a Compound Bow, _*_ESPECIALLY for the physicality of the aforementioned character archetype._* You're obsessed with sighting and releases as a weakness, but don't stop to recognize that the diversity of the Compound Bow from Recurve & Composite Bows are its strengths _because they are DIFFERENT._ This means if you have a less physically strong character, you can STILL have them specializing in archery so that they fight at range & are more removed from direct threats of melee combat, and check that box. However, them not having dexterous agility & significant upper body strength are less important than stealth & careful accuracy for them and - _that's all exactly why you _*_SHOULD_*_ have THOSE characters using a Compound Bow instead, because it accentuates the differences the weapon itself reinforces, while also allowing OTHER types of characters to use a Recurve or Composite Bow for the dodging & rapid firing archery for quick, lithe, & agile characters who EVADE enemy fire rather than AVOID enemy detection outright._ Additionally, since Compound Bows hold at a very _specific_ draw weight that isn't continually escalating the farther back you pull like Recurve or Composite, this ALSO means that you could have that character train with non-standard arrows BECAUSE Compound Bows can dial the distance for how they fire and site precision _in a completely different way, because of how you can place sights and learn distances._ Exploding arrows that weigh more as ranged ordinance make _FAR_ more sense being fired from a Compound Bow than having someone with a Recurve or Composite Bow using them, _specifically because of the mechanical ways in which they translate the transfer of energy are more beneficial for that._ This means it makes more sense to use a grenade-like explosive arrow vs. throwing it because you have the benefit of accuracy _just like soldiers who can hit the same spot with a mortar round 5 times in a row._ It's a totally different skill set for their weapon's specialization that both makes them interesting AND recognizably different to an audience because of a Compound Bow having a markedly different appearance. You made it abundantly clear you have an exceedingly narrow and _painfully elitist_ view of Recurve & Composite archery …but that's ALL focused around your niche scenarios in apocalyptic "looting, patrolling, & raiding" which is, once again, *EXACTLY why it's important to represent different types of Bows & Archery just as much as different types of firearms & combat specialists using them.* _Those types of bows benefit totally different types of characters and make stories more interesting with a greater diversity of how to portray that, rather than oversimplifying it all into this single bloated & inaccurate archetype _*_that you're just reinforcing with all your rambling._* A sniper in a ghillie suit won't be great at looting, patrolling, & raiding in an apocalypse the way someone with a semi-automatic weapon would be. They are far better suited to defend a static "fort" position or strike before anyone knows they're there and reposition before anyone can find where they were. Compound Bows have a similar benefit at a far closer range, but comparatively without any sound at that closer distance compared to using a rifle even if it's heavily suppressed. Like the video emphasized, there are COUNTLESS ways to make more interesting characters who still specialize in archery when you make use of the variety of _what actually exists_ rather than try to obsessively compare them against uneven criteria and force them into a single mold.
@@DK_HAXXyou do realize it is prefectly doable to shoot a coumpound with your fingers? And that a lever bow is a sub catagory of compound bows? And finally the lever bow in the comics is relatively recent change from his long time use of a recurve and occasional wheelbow? It was I believe done to match the use of the bow in TV series, but have not checked the dates.
The issue with compound bows is that because of how recent the design it (1966), you run into the problem that even a modern pistol would outperform it in any practical sense. So it'd be a pretty niche weapon, requiring far too much practise, only to be outperformed by an AK in almost all categories.
From what I've heard, another unrealistic thing that's kind of necessary for cinematic/gaming archery is the creak of the bow as it's pulled and then released. Apparently that only happens in real life if the bow is severely damaged, and a properly maintained one would be almost silent on the draw. But because media has conditioned us to expect audible feedback on almost every physical action, NOT having the bow make noise as it's fired 'feels' wrong to the viewer. Much how car doors are specifically designed to slam loudly, because the psychological feedback makes people mistrust it if it doesn't.
One trope I missed was, "Draw, aim, hold, hold, hold some more, hold a conversation about the ethics of hiring economically disadvantaged people at low wages, remember you're holding a bow, maybe shoot sometimes in a few minutes." It's a great way to reduce how many arrows you have the strength to shoot, and a lot of the time not actually doable with heavier end bows.
This is how firearms replaced bows. Can you reload a crossbow faster than you can reload a matchlock after your arms are worn out from shooting a hundred times?
@@Shade01982Neither term is applicable if you're talking about historical archers. Every army had a code word or motion to direct archers to shoot. Historical armies have never said fire or loosely. The fact most archers didn't speak English probably also being a big reason.
@@MenacingWithVideosBoth crossbows and matchlocks are slow to reload so I doubt either one would fire more than once in a close melee fight. In a long range battle the crossbow would be better simply cause it's more accurate over longer distances. Guns like muskets were incredibly inaccurate at range which is why armies lined up close to fire.
@@MenacingWithVideos Firearms replaced bows due to ease of use. Bows take years to learn, firearms take days or weeks. For modern firearms after just few hours of training you can shoot a target 150 meters away.
One thing I always appreciate about your videos is that you take the time to explain *why* movies and video games make the changes they make, even when you think they're ridiculous.
I would like to point out that in the book series The Wheel of Time the author Robert Jordan got a few of these things right in his story. Bows were said to be un-strung in places. Care was taken to keep strings dry (or have spare strings in a watertight pouch). And there were a few styles of archery and/or bows mentioned. I think I remember hearing that Jordan was an archery enthusiast so it makes sense that they showed up in his epic.
That's cool! Jordan was really really good at adding details 😂 (for other context, his books kept getting more verbose/filled with lot of details. I reread the first few books a lot [as one of my fav books during HS], but never got past Winter's heart, where the level of etail just got too much for me and some other readers ).
You even get interesting interactions like one culture that primarily uses shorter bows on horseback thinks the enormous Two Rivers bows (used for hunting) are ridiculous simply because they can't be used on horseback and how impractical they are unless you've been using them for years.
try listening to his books while doing something productive but repetitive with your hands. I knit but many hobbies & some jobs allow for this mental freedom. Makes the detail of his book interesting or at least easier to get through
Can I suggest an honourable mention of keeping a bow drawn for ages as if 'ready to shoot', when holding a drawn bow is REALLY hard and it's better to draw when you're ready to shoot!
Movies basically treat bows like guns. Anyone can use them, they require no strength and little training, and you can just hold them to someone as a threat forever.
depends on the bow, compound is pretty easy to hold like that . . . used to have to do drills just holding a drawn bow for like 10 minutes straight for our school team lmao
Actually, 'letting down' is what is needed. You can be ready to shoot, then something goes off (wind kicks up, shadow falls, your minds wanders for a tick) - you let down, regroup mentally and then re-draw.
True. I used to do this with my first bow to build up strength and endurance, it's brutal, can be severely damaging to the bow depending on the material and overused in media.
I really appreciate all the small imperfections kept in the video, like at 9:56. I don't really know why, but I guess it sorta makes the flow nice and feel more genuine, and weirdly enough it made my day, thank you! Loved how the sponsor was approached too, actually made me want to watch it ^^ Great video! Arf arff!
I think the point about injury or breaks is really cool. We often have this image of skills as this magical property inside of us as 'I am this good at this' (like a level in a video game) but really skills are a bit more like lining lots of individual processes up and then keeping at it so much they automate. If you stop doing it your body will lose things like muscles etc and if you change anything suddenly all those skills you've automated won't quite line up. I really like the idea of treating this a bit more seriously with skill based heroes, especially in trying to approach media from a bit more of a disability focused angle. Honestly, a really excellent point on its own
to put in perspective ..i'm a cook .. I have cheffy knife skills .. unless I've had a week off .. then no .. I use a knife like everyone else and at that speed.. will prob take me a week to get all that muscle memory back. And that's easy! I used to do archery .. its much more of a skill than chopping some carrot fast lol
Yup. I had basic sword skills (HEMA), but I haven't used my sword for ten years. Now I can hardly flail it about, no way I'd be able to use it safely / accurately until I regain both strength and muscle memory
In the original Robin Hood story, he has a bow made to fit his strength (as you would) and almost no one else can pull it. When he finally dies from bloodletting he becomes really weak and he is given his bow and shoots an arrow out the window to indicate where he wants to be buried, and naturally he can barely pull back the bow. So yeah, strength 🙂
The one the drives me crazy is illustrated in one of the art pieces that you used: The absurdly shaped bow. I get that fantasy games what to show how one bow is more "magically-jacked" than a regular bow, but they end up giving it a construction that would actively work against the operation of the bow; make it more difficult, awkward or bulky for the user; or less effective than simply using a normal bow.
That's a problem in real historical weapons. The most effective objectively are simple and adornment free most of the time. Complex geometries usually don't add much. It was especially so in early cinema when video was poor quality. Keeping track of the characters is easier with extreme outfits and weapons- this also was the case for model making, 'hero scale' would scale up certain features and make items/weapons more iconic to give visual clarity to the miniature scale. Feeding off one another and the fact that before the internet the earlier representations informed the later.
As a writer, I love videos like this. Even the littlest things that add a slight touch of extra realism can really draw people in. For example, when I wrote my fantasy novel, I knew to not have archers sit at full draw for long periods of time, portrayed them as not aiming precisely when shooting at an army formation, and had the officers say 'loose' instead of fire. Keep up the good work! Some of us out here are listening!
After this I really want a video on the different types of bows and how hard they are to draw, how far they shoot, why to use this bow vs that bow, etc.
Aye that would be an interesting one as Im curious about other types of bow too, I know my hungarian composite horse bow is far easier to draw than my Welsh longbow, despite both being the same poundage.
@@Reignlief The Welsh or English longbow, although historically important is actually a very primitive bow. When drawn the load /draw length graph is very curved - starts off quite easy then you have to do most of the workin the last few inches before reaching your anchor point. It just feels much harder then drawing up a bow with a similar final draw weight but a flatter load curve, such as you might hope for in a flat bow or a composite horn and sinew recurve. Which is "better"? That depends! In the cooler damper climate of England and Wales most common folk would have found it very difficult to keep a composite bow dry enough so as not to disintegrate. There need be no glue in a longbow, so it's a better design for this part of the world. HTH!
@@titheproven954Compound Bows are a modernization of recurve bows to improve accuracy and ease of use. Compound bows will nock through the center of the bow and also mount optical sights. They use a specific quick release to minimize adverse twisting or jerking on the string when shooting. All of these improve accuracy. The wheels are pullies and cams. These allow for high draw strengths and draw lengths in a more compact size and allow for the shooter to hold less of the draw weight at full draw. An 80 pound compound bow will only burden the shooter with 20 or so pounds of the draw strength at full draw. This is to decrease the effort and exhaustion while aiming, allowing for longer aiming times are overall ease of use.
It would be really interesting to see where the crossover point between throwing and shooting falls with heavier and heavier objects ...both with and particularly without the mechanical advantage of the whirling wind up.
I love how you didn't take the trouble to cut the scenes where you're hesitating and stammering, but yet edited for the effect of "passing through the bow"! Keep it up, always great analysis and enjoyable scenes.
When writers say the archer is "notching" an arrow instead of nocking. It's a nock, not a notch. Also, characters drawing a heavy war bow and just casually holding it and having an interminable conversation as if they're not holding a hundred pounds or more under tension.
The notching vs nocking might (at least partially) be blamed on editors/spellcheckers combined with authors who aren’t super familiar w archery - when I write, google docs ALWAYS tries to change nock to notch and I have to go back and correct it. An author with less confidence in their archery knowledge might say “oh, I guess it’s notching then?”
Would be interesting to have a character hold a war bow at full draw for a long period, specifically to establish how absurdly strong they are. If you wanted to highlight it, you could have other characters marvel at what the archer character is doing, or be shocked at how casually the archer character can resist that much tension without any visible strain.
@@tbotalpha8133 I imagine that'd be impressive but only to those familiar with archery. To the average joe whose only familiarity with archery is through film and video games, they'd probably not be too impressed since they've already been conditioned with the assumption that drawing bows are as easy as stretching out a rubber band.
I just came across this and must say, I find it one of the most delightful, refreshing things I‘ve seen in quite a while. Thanks a lot! ❤ (PS: and impressed with both your archery and story telling skills)
I liked in the Robin hood bookes that the bandits were practicing archery everytime they were not robbing anyone. Often as archery competitions .... + when Robin dies he shot one last arrow out of his window to mark the spot of his burialsite and he needed help drawing the bow because he was so weak.
Ranger's Apprentice is one of my favorite series, extremely low fantasy and well grounded (Not perfectly grounded but 95%), the author wrote in almost EVERY instance of the un-stringing and re-stringing of the bow. Check it out if you haven't.
I'm not an archer. I don't play dnd type games. I don't write at all. I have no reason to be watching this, it has no relevance in my life, yet I am glued to this video. Blum is magic that he can make all this stuff so interesting and entertaining. P.S - PLEASE DO FLAMING ARROWS. 🔥🔥🔥
@@blumineckyeah, back garden with trees and neighbors on presumably all sides seem a somewhat ill-advised place to demonstrate that! 😂 When you _do_ figure out a setting though, I absolutely second the request!
Thank you for pointing out the rubber string thing movies and games does, I am not an archer myself but I have researched it enough for art references for it to really bother me when that happens
this is so useful, i was making a new archer characters and now i have a lot to think about again, and even new ideas for stories with them! thank you so much
When you said "gone to great lengths to feature a specific Native American Culture and Language" I cannot stress enough how that made me not only smile- but fervently not in agreement with the point you're making!! I did what research I could manage (the information is sparse sadly) on the way my Tribe traditionally used a bow for a D&D character of mine, and it really opened my eyes to how much impact the slightest variation can have on somethin like archery. It was amazing, and yet, I cant unknow it and having people try to correct me on archery form at the D&D table was an experience. >×
@@MenacingWithVideos My tribe is Alaskan and with over 600 different distinct Native American cultures in the USA I doubt that the techniques apply to groups outside my own, maybe our closest cultural neighbors. Not to mention, I'm not a perfect scholar/expert so don't take this as gospel. But the stance and way they threaded the arrow into the bow is loose and almost casual. The bow was a low poundage one made of birch wood which was treated and wrapped. Multiple fingers were used to sort of, gently grip the end of the arrow and let the string like, slip from the fingers on release, often with a slight tilt to the bow- not a perfectly straight 45 degree angle sort of thing. The quiver was on a long strap and hung at the side/front of the hunter- it was also often decorated with beads and painted patterns. My tribe mostly used a bow for hunting, so I didn't find anything specifically for warfare. When Alaska was colonized even though my ancestors disliked it, what I've read so far is that the resistance was fairly "peaceful". They kinda were like "Nah, you can live here but you don't govern me." Which.. had its pros and cons. Anyhow, when you're hunting out in the woods with your dogs and a family member or two, their methods were more than enough. As far as actors in "Prey" I've never seen that before so genuinely I couldn't tell yah.
@@Sellesion I like your response. Its good that you are keeping your traditions alive. Do some of the traditional techniques from Alaska take into account that you will definitely be wearing gloves if you are hunting in the winter? Do you place all your fingers under the arrow when you draw back?
@@MenacingWithVideos thanks! But I should clarify I don't personally hunt with a bow or anything. I just wanted to learn about my tribal history- their stories should be known. As for technique, the arrow shaft before the point rests on the middle finger actually! The thumb cups the bow and the fingers are extended, which I founs surprising. I only found one source for that though, so it makes me curious how much evidence for that there is. About gloves, I didn't find any mention of gloves getting in the way. So it probably was no issue. My tribe is on the southern coast so the weather is fairly mild for a lot of the year and I bet they didn't/don't have to worry to much about having to wear gloves 100% of the time. Especially since they view January as the "time where we sing and dance". It's a time of leisure, to keep moral up during the terrible weather, and works because all the work to prepare and store food was done in prior months when food was more accessible. In modern times my Aunts and Uncles still practice this a lot- they do a lot of smoking and canning during the summer. 😋
The archery crowd were dogmatic and loud and you still get echos that archery had to be a certain way. Thankfully they got debunked and thus there's a lot less now. Only a few styles of archery deal with warbows which these olympic style archers definitely do not. In the early days they would genuinely say 100lbs is impossible- even after the mary rose finds they said the calculation of 200lbs was wrong. Then a guy trained and shoots 200lbs regularly and reliably with the old techniques depicted that the olympic style archers said was bad artwork. Hunting is again very different to target archery- depending on large or small game, requires you to track, shoot from hidden, shoot while moving, and shoot with a clear view if preferred. The 'decoration' may be more than that- tying soft things to the string to prevent reverberation is important in hunting archery, to make it quieter and not scare the prey, or if you miss at least scare it towards you instead. Colours are also useful to make your bow more visible if you put it down or so you do not get shot by your friends. Also large headresses and scary paint of dead animal hats allows you to scare off predators as well. Most things have quite reasonable explanations and the decorative part is often within the allowance of pragmatism and varies on preference. Both camouflage and high visibility are useful when hunting depending on context. I expect there are more to the traditions than you might think, perhaps rather than a clean release for example it was allowed to slip through the fingers perhaps that is quieter etc, or perhaps it is easier to keep stable when moving the bow. Experimentation to find the advantage or disadvantage is helpful.
One thing that doesn't come up often in story or art, but is important to remember: keeping your bow dry. A wet bow won't bend well, nor will a wet bowstring pull well, and the net result is a bow that won't shoot. More than once, forgetting this has killed whole armies of archers in history.
I've been seeing a few of your shorts and now watching this, and I want to say thanks for making these informative videos! I want to make an MMO that features archery and ranged weapons, and include realistic animations, physics, and mechanics, so this was helpful to say the least.
Yooo, I just wanted to say that you’re providing a lot of help in the stories I’m developing. You’re giving me ideas of what sort of “gained over time” powers the archers in my fantasy world could get to strengthen them, and to make up for some real world problems that I don’t want to be a problem for powerful adventures.
For example, instead of firing more arrows or larger arrows, they could over time be able to use a form of magic to recreate this effect with a single arrow. For example: an archer readies a shot. They hold it for a few seconds while whispering something, and their bowstring and arrowhead begin to glow with a faint light. They release the arrow, and in midair, four ghostly copies split from the original arrow, causing 5 targets to be hit in the crowd of enemies they were aiming at.
Heh, number 9 reminds me of a trope I see a lot in RPGs outside of archery. An enemy's HP has no effect on their ability to strike with deadly force. If you have a group of foes whose skill levels and training are all on par with one another, but one guy has 500 HP while the guy next to him has 3 HP, the wounds for the guy with 3 HP has absolutely no bearing on how hard or accurately he can swing a sword. This is why in an RPG, the you focus your efforts one one guy at a time and don't stop until they are dead because the guy kneeling at death's door somehow still strikes with the same deadly accuracy as the guy with full life standing next to him, even though he's bleeding out because both of his arms are cut off. This has no bearing on how well he wields a sword.
Yeah it's like you can store up the force your arm muscles make and focus on one tiny point releasing all at once. I keep trying to think of a way to describe an arm becoming a gun but then I just start describing a bow again
BTW it is not entirely true, as demonstrated by a distant relative of archery, muscle powered (break barrel or pump) pellet guns. An arrow can definitely at least in theory pack more energy than a punch primarily because more time is used to build up the bow tension, and compound bows or, of course, crossbows (which are not really REAL bows in the sense of an archery purist) allow building up this energy even more effectively. OTOH energy is transferred to a bow in a pull motion, which limits the force to what the arms can provide - one cannot do the typical martial arts thing of putting your entire body weight into the punch. So, YMMV I guess. Based on this, I wonder if one could build a device that transfers energy and momentum from a punch or kick to an arrow or pellet, and that way exceed what bows or air rifles can do. Obviously any such device would be way less mobile. But think about it - a soccer ball, kicked, contains more energy and momentum than a bullet from an average pistol...
@@divVerent I think the problem you're going to run into there is the efficiency (or lack thereof) of the transfer method. Kicking or punching something loses energy in the moment of impact (sound and heat usually). If what you're kicking or punching is itself a transfer mechanism, then you either lose energy twice, once in hitting the mechanism, once in it hitting the projectile, or you're actually just using the impact to trigger the release of energy already stored in that mechanism (like punching a button to release a spring under pressure). There's also the question of accuracy as the thing you're kicking/punching gets smaller.
@@divVerent Leverage is the device needed to transfer the energy but becomes impractical quickly. That's why break action pellet guns are so powerful with one pump because they use the length of the barrel for leverage. Compound bows also use cams to increase leverage on the bow and crossbows are using a gear reduction drive to wind back the string for more power.
Awesome video, this really helps with some ideas I’ve been having about something I may work on in the future. Love the longer video. Great work David!
I really appreciate that you balance between pointing out where the flaws are in common archery tropes and having perspective on whether those tropes are important to correct. Instead of feeling nitpicky, it's just learning cool new things, alongside opportunities to improve writing - and saving the real criticism for something that has more important implications, like the diversity of archery styles
I will fully admit that i did not expect the sudden shirtless look and go "oh my!" THAT aside? Very good video Very informative Particularly on the effect of the arrow when it comes to pushing someone
Fantastic video (no pun intended!) and kudos for being calm and reasonable about things that can be really quite annoying to archery fans. Also, great point about the Olympic style archery, it is far more common than other forms but, speaking as a 10+ year field archer whose seen a fair selection of bows and archery styles, it really doesn't work as a template for most movie/game archery.
I found the information about bow tension to be really interesting as I also work with bows. Violin bows. Obviously, very different tools for very different purposes, but with a little bit of overlap. There's a screw on the end of a violin bow you turn to loosen and tighten the hair and if you don't loosen it after playing, not only will it stretch out the hair and ruin it, but if you made a mistake and forget your bow is already tightened and keep tightening it, you will snap your bow. The hair can be replaced. If the stick snaps, you have to purchase a new bow to replace it. Idk if you found this interesting, but I thought it'd be fun to share. I always had an interest in archery and just recently found your channel, so I'll definitely be checking it out. Thanks for the fun video!
I took a few years break from archery. When I went back a lot of that muscle memory just kicked in again, no issue with hitting the same distance I'd shot before etc.
This is very true. If you developed the muscle memory properly over years of training even decades can go by and you’d still retain that skill. My wife is a perfect example of that. The rode horses and developed muscle memory that after roughly 20 years of not riding came back almost immediately. Practice how you compete and it will stay with you.
You always make sure to talk constructively about media instead of just complaining about it-it feels so much more comfortable and educational than just getting talked down to by an expert! If you're looking for more longer-form stuff to do, I'd love to see you talk about different regional/historical styles like you mentioned here, I feel like you'd bring a fun spin to it.
Great info! This was a big problem with guns in video games and other media as well. Quality education like this is what changed it. Even if you don't like guns, even having a little bit of knowledge in how they worked would ruin the experience of it being portrayed incorrectly on TV or the movies. Also, If you need a video editor, lmk!
:) Well done. Well explained and visually fun. I've been an Archer (multiple forms) for over 40 years. Your video hit the spot and pointed at common bloopers in Archery portrayal. One trope I really don't like, is seeing a mass of Longbow Archers being told to draw and hold at full draw before being told to FIRE !
Fun fact about arrow/bullet drop: Arrows and bullets fall at the same speed regardless of how fast they travel, so if you fire a bullet or arrow perfectly straight ahead and drop one of the same bullet/arrow at the same time, they will hit the ground at the same time… the only difference is that the fired ones will have gone much further. It doesn’t seem like it’s true, but it is. Think about it… even though that arrow is moving really fast, gravity is still pulling it downward so it’s still falling as it flies. It’s just moving forward many times faster than it’s falling.
"It doesn’t seem like it’s true" Because it actually isn't. Arrows in flight as well as bullets often create a bit of lift. Its not that a lot, so the result won't be much off from what you described. I'm just nitpicking.
@@_aullik Bullets don’t generate any lift, it’s basically impossible because they can’t generate a pressure differential strong enough to affect their flight and the slight pressure changes around a bullet are completely negated by the rifling. That’s the whole point of rifling, to make the bullet fly as straight as possible unaffected by slight changes in aero effects and potential Bernoulli effects. As for arrows, there are rare types of arrows designed to create lift and fly further but they’ve never been used because they sacrifice accuracy and power. Flying further doesn’t help at all if you can’t hit your target and have already lost all of your kinetic energy to air friction. That said, arrows do technically create “lift” but it’s not what you think. Fletching generates dynamic lift for stability as the arrow spins. It essentially creates “lift” and drag in all directions to keep the arrow more level and straight as it flies but these forces are not nearly strong enough to effect the actual weight of the arrow and extend flight at all. This means that there is a net zero lift on the arrow and it falls at the same speed as it normally would. In practice and reality a fired bullet/arrow will hit the ground at the same time as a dropped one, but understanding why/how is important too. Fighting gravity is hard.. it’s rarely done on accident and requires maximum effort or hardcore engineering to accomplish it. Because gravity is one tough bitch.
Exactly, and the acceleration is independent of weight. He says the affect will be more pronounced with heavier arrows, but it's just more "pronounced" (in terms of distance, not time) for slower arrows, and for the same archer, a heavier arrow should be slower.
I will agree with wording it as "Arrows and bullets under similar conditions are subject to the same gravitational force", but I can't agree with being so general as to say they fall at the same "speed" as though no other external forces, such as aerodynamics, are at play in the universe. One could say that it's negligible, but in a big enough system, it can make enough difference that i can't afford to be so ignorant. Since you specifically said "fire" a bullet in the original post, it's worth noting that a fired bullet spins in order to help maintain its trajectory against drag, and trajectory is measured in all 3 dimensions, including up and down. Gravity will certainly supersede in the acting forces on the bullet, but it's safe to say that a dropped bullet with no spin is not doing anything to maintain its trajectory vertically so much as the fired bullet is.
At least with rifles bullet trajectory actually starts by climbing, rather than being fired straight ahead. So with real life rifles it's almost there. For example one I used the sight was accurate at 50m and 150m, meaning bullet was at same height at 50m and 150m distances. It was still climbing higher at 50m but is falling at 150m. It takes very little time to travel that distance so pretty much same still as firing straight ahead.
I watch the video from this channel for the first time (shorts are out of count) and the ad hit straight to my needs. Once even YT algorithm can do it's work lol. P.S. Thanks for the video.
I love that you already have so many of the props for showing why these are bad ideas. 😸 They have all been entertaining to watch, and this video is no exception. ETA: Love that you're giving a shoutout to artists who _could_ do better if they had the time and money to do so. ❤
Thank you! I’m glad I can continue to entertain you 😄 Of course! I know everything is a trade off, and it’s often not the artists who choose to cut corners!
I remember reading an issue from a fairly new release of the Thunderbolts where we see Hawkeye just standing and training his shots with his bow. Just so good to see a hero training with his weapon.
Love this. Every single one is a problem. Honestly, I'd move bow abuse up to the top, if for no other reason than the example it sets for how to treat the equipment that's liable to hurt them if damaged. That said, please please PLEASE use a bowstringer on camera! I know the through-the-leg method is more historically accurate, but I can't tell you how many kids I have come in with the modern bow they've been using with their uncle that's all warped because they never strung it properly. Thanks! You're such a great voice for the archery community, keep this stuff coming!
Hm... Your best and most concise rundown so far(that still includes most everything relevant). I tend to be highly critical of the small things, because I wish to see things improve. But I can't remember anything that stood out to me here, good job! ^^
Linguistic pet peeve: people in pre-gunpowder warfare talking about 'firing' arrows rather than 'loose' or 'shoot' or whatever. In The Lord of the Rings, it seems that the verb in the prologue battle was a Sindarin construct meaning 'release' (or 'loose!'), but the subtitles nevertheless said 'fire arrows!'. It seems so natural, but it's pretty much always wrong. Interestingly, I think that most people would find it odd to hear someone speak of 'firing' slings or spears.
I don't usually comment but this was extremely entertaining. Really love your videos and so glad I found your channel on this platform. Keep the content coming please!
The scenario where someone uses an arrow to shoot a rope across a chasm or raging river and then use the rope to cross with, is pretty unbelievable; even LOTR did this, though it was a lightfooted elf that ran across the small rope held into a tree only by an embedded arrow, and the elf then was able to tie the rope to the tree better and to use it to pull across 3 more heavy-duty ropes to create a rope bridge (one to walk on, two to use as handrails above and slightly to the sides of the first rope.
my number one trope is the lengthy conversation at full draw. If drawing back the bow is the equivalent of lifting a small teenager, just imagine having a casual conversation while holding said teenager up. I know it is not impossible but it should be seen as very special.
my pet peeve is when they lie the bow horizontal but the bow style wouldnt support that nor are they puling it properly. im always like "youd whack yourself in the face so fast"
In my teenage arrogance and desire to be cool when I was first learning archery....I did this exact thing! It... did not end well at all. Try explaining the really weird yet massive bruise covering half your face the next day to the school administration.
13:00 made me think of that scene in GOT where the Archer from brotherhood without banners is mentoring Arya and she says that she hit the target right where she meant to and he counters that she took her sweet time doing it
I've been shooting olympic recurve for over 30 years now and am still fascinated how wildly varied styles of archery are. What this guy is doing is so much unlike olympic archery that to me it feels like an entirely different thing. It's great to see people having fun with archery in so many ways.
I think he's using at least three (and the lawn) though - definitely the black (shed?) thing at the end of the garden, the smaller target on the lawn, I *think* the tree, and then a bunch of wild shots that just went into the grass. I'd love to know what his neighbours think LOL
One of the most offensive bow uses I’ve scene in movies, is when they took a script for a gunfight, and asked ‘but what if they had bows instead?’ Crossbows are not one-handed twenty-shot repeaters that require zero effort or time to rearm after each shot. Longbows are not hip-fire weapons you can spam several arrows with during a single acrobatic leap-to-cover.
I love how in the Lord of the Rings books, JRR Tolkien absolutely knew his stuff because he always mentions Legolas “stringing his bow” before combat, which is just a lovely detail that I appreciated very much
Tolkien was many things but a skimper on the details he was not
I quite liked Jim Butcher's Codex Alera for a similar reason. The main people that use archery have wouldcrafting abilities that allow them to flex massive warbows easier than a regular human.
Another thing in this video Tolkien specifically gets right: at one point in the Battle of Helm's Deep Legolas mentions that he has to switch to "knife-work" when the orcs start swarming over the wall he's shooting from (and he runs out of arrows). Legolas carries a melee weapon!
@@desmondk-o7148 it was reflected in the LOTR movie with Legolas carrying two short swords on his back which was a gift from the Dunedain Rangers. In the Hobbit movie, he uses a pair of Elven Knives to kill Orcs
Legolas is also mentioned retrieving arrows after skirmishes, which is a nice touch!
While watching the part about keeping your bow unstrung I was like “oh yeah, just like a violin bow!” and then I was like… wait… because they’re also BOWS! 😭 they work the same way of course… I never realized that
You can unstring a violin bow? 😶
I have a 100 year old one and the horse hair on it is just glued there.
@@Aethuviel I agree with the comment from @antinn7448 but the exception would be if it was a homemade bow or if it was 'repaired' along the way by someone not trained in how to correctly do it, or perhaps if it's a not Western style of violin bow. I can't imagine a non-Western style of violin bow functions much differently though. They still need to have tension and wood under tension for long periods without being loosened will warp.
You could even use a shooting bow on a violin, it wouldn't sound good but it'd probably produce a sound
I didn't even know those kinds of bows could/should be unstrung. I don't have any intention of learning such an instrument, but still good to know in case I ever end up writing about one.
@@Aethuvieljust loosen. You twist the screw thing on the back to tighten/loosen it
My biggest pet peeve when it comes to depictions of archery is the "infinite strength draw" where the character fully draws their bow, aims, and then just holds it fully drawn like that as if doing so wasn't as strenuous as trying to hold a teenager aloft with one arm.
Yeah, I'm surprised it didn't make the list. I'd probably put it on #1. I struggle to hold a 70lbs bow steady, while a skinny a$$ teenage girl smaller than my dog can draw a massive 150lb war bow and hold a casual 10 minute conversation. I tried 150. I failed. Miserably...
it’s literally #4 in the video
Yeah, they do that a lot, especially when it's groups of archers. Like in Braveheart.
@@ryanager8029 No, the problem I'm talking about isn't in the design of the character and the character's strength. It's that holding a bow fully drawn like that is very strenuous for anyone regardless of strength, so you 1. wouldn't be able to hold it for long and 2. it's just not how anyone would use a bow as your aim would get more and more shaky by the second as your arms gets tired, thus making your aim bad for no reason.
i can't remember what game it was, but there's a game where the longer you hold a drawn bow your aim gets shaky and eventually you release the arrow unintentionally
In defense of the Robin Hood TV show and the fact he was using a recurve bow in medieval England: they did explicitly say that he got his bow while overseas in the crusades. There are definitely many problems with that show but I always found that to be a particularly nice touch.
Doing acrobatics while talking - seemingly no script - didn't edit out the flubs - yet still be one of the most information dense videos I've ever seen. Fantastic stuff - genuinely super useful.
Glad it was helpful! 😁
@@blumineck A compliment you totally deserve.
This man has big AuDHD energy, and if it's not a special interest delivered with full ND passion then goddamn I cannot even fathom the dedication it requires for him to know so much and be able to multitask about it so perfectly.
As as fellow AuDHD, I was thinking this exact thing. @@Jane-oz7pp
It was so well done, I started to think it was dubbed over until some later shots. Enough content creators struggle to get their audio clear when standing perfectly still that this level of movement with a mic is astounding.
Hey ! I'm an animator and want to thank you a lot for this! Everyone in the film/game/animation industry should watch this video once. Short and to the point. Thanks also for for showing all the different poses and everything. Good reference.
Most of the time we have to research this in our free time or just make stuff up fast according to the storyboard and look up like 1 or 2 videos if even that. So having videos like yours is a valuable resource :)
It's a bit silly really that you aren't given the references of the things they want to create from the people hiring you. Or at least a period of time added where you can research it. I wouldn't have gone to the store I worked at and set up promotional displays so they were ready for when I actually did paid work because setting up the displays is part of the work. Researching for animations seems exactly the same to me.
@@GeekGamer666 Well, everything is standardised and corporate now, video game studios and Hollywood don't care about getting the finer details right in their games/movies, they just want to mass produce for maximum profit which is why writers and animators often have very tight timelines to deliver.
7:30 In Skyrim's defense, that extra momentum is actually a quirk in the physics engine that also affects spells and even melee weapons. In Skyrim, if an attack would deal more damage than a target has health, the excess damage is converted into momentum. This is why you often send targets flying with sneak attacks, you're simply dealing so much more than they can take. This is also the cause of what is colloquially known as the Skyrim Space Program, when a giant smacks you into the ground with enough force to launch you into the upper atmosphere.
"Errrr, Whiterun, we have a problem!"
They did the same thing in Star Wars Bounty Hunter, with even sillier results. I recall the poison dart gun launching enemies straight out of the map.
just to be clear i loved each and every glitch this has caused in my various playthroughs
Similar behavior occurs in Team Fortress 2 as well, and is especially noticeable with Spy's backstabs and the Huntsman, which often send even the Heavy absolutely flying.
That's not a defence, that's just an explanation for why it happens. ...and I love that it does.
number 9 is a reason i love the Ranger's Apprentice book series so much. There IS training, and they go through it with you, the reader. Archery, throwing knives, stealth, etc, all training given to the MC.
John Flanagan did a superb job of introducing archery to new readers. Telling Will to imagine he's try to get his shoulder blades to touch is a great way to focus on the correct muscles.🥰
They constantly mention having to string their bows, they never EVER stop practicing (at one point Will is named by two senior archers as the best shot in the land and yet he keeps practicing because he wants to be better), carry backup weapons, acknowledge the fact that shooting requires a fair bit of muscle, and when Will couldn't shoot for about a year(?) he had to relearn the muscle memory almost from scratch. Ranger's Apprentice really just is one of the best depictions of archers I've ever seen.
They constantly mention having to string their bows, they never EVER stop practicing (at one point Will is named by two senior archers as the best shot in the land and yet he keeps practicing because he wants to be better), carry backup weapons, acknowledge the fact that shooting requires a fair bit of muscle, and when Will couldn't shoot for about a year(?) he had to relearn the muscle memory almost from scratch. Ranger's Apprentice really just is one of the best depictions of archers I've ever seen.
@@DParkerNunya "An ordinary archer practices until he gets it right. A ranger practices until he never gets it wrong."
Yeah the books are for the most part good I simply don´t realy like the book Arzan wolves.
I just learned about another incorrect trope: how arrows in flight are often shown straight and static when actually the arrow shafts are wriggling with kinetic energy.
Yeah, the depiction of that in Brave was phenomenal.
I loved that slow mo so much!
Also arrows spiral
In movies, comics, etc, absolutely. I love seeing arrows spiral & warp mid-flight. In games, it's _really_ not worth the effort, even for slow-mo shots (like the ones you see in Skyrim).
That's the equivalent of a throwing axe or throwing knife sailing through the air with zero spin, it just cracks me up at this point
I play an Archer in a MMORPG and I ended up being not only pleased but satisfied that the devs took the time to perfectly animate the bows bend when drawing the string back in using the class's skills. And they take the time to perfectly program the cosmetics for the bow itself to bend to match the bows style in the attack skill. Out of all the cosmetics I have, one of the bows styles behaves like a compound bow during draw back and makes it feel like a heavy attack. Looks can be deceiving but these devs poured their hearts and finger tips into making sure that the bows draw mechanics matched real life as possible!
The "perfect shot after ages" trope may go back as far as Homer, with Ulysses stringing his heavy bow and making a single impossible shot with it.
I would like to give more context to this story. Now I agree this is probably the origin of the trope cause the Odyssey has influenced a great deal of our modern storytelling. However It is not a user of this trope, but rather misunderstandings created it. First off Ulysses is the later Romanized version of the story. It’s a translation adapted from its original greek compilation by Homer. The Odyssey follows Odysseus (His og greek name) and most importantly to know he is a favorite of the Goddess Athena. Also the bow he fires was a gift which he had practiced with. He was also a hunter who commonly used bows quite a little. So he had the training, and experience. However the famous impossible shot does still take place after 20 years were we have very limited idea of the weapons he used and at least hasn’t used a bow in 10 years. However when he makes this shot its heavily implied it is made with the influence of Athena and her powers. So it’s explained how he can not have to shake off any rust as he’s magically enhanced. Even after he fires the bow some translations note a sigil of Athena appearing above the doorway Odysseus stands in as he kills the suitors. A representation that she is watching over him and helping him. This is just one of many times Athena helps Odysseus get advantages or helps him in his goals, or even outright saving his life during the Trojan war.
Full disclosure I am not a historian or a specialist in Greek history, or the Epics im just someone who hyper fixated on them learned a bunch of history and has read multiple translations of them. So I could most definitely have some information wrong.
@@Goober440 i have to disagree : when you read the story, there is a lot of fights against indigenous people along the trip.
Like... a lot. Odysseus is quite "barbaric", kills a lot of tribes just to gather food, etc...
at least, till he eat all of his crew due to Circea, knowing theses porks are his crew...
Plus, it"s not a good test for archery skill : it's not about accuracy, nor speed, just strengh.
Only Odysseus could handle this tension, only him could draw the bow, and shoot an arrow with enough power to... shoot an arrow in a straight line trough 12 miserable meters, if the axes are separated one meter from another one.
This is important : this legendary bow is absolutely crap. Mine is 41 lb strong, and i can shoot hundred meters.
This one is supposedly so strong only a god-descendant can draw it, and... people can't shoot more than dozen meters with it ?
Considering that odysseus is an excellent woodworker, this is NOT a bow. It's the most rough piece of junk you ever could have imagined.
@@flamandbenoit7247 ...What are you disagreeing with mob about? What does the fighting with indigenous people have to do with what they said? You didn't connect those.
The point of shooting through the axe heads isn't the distance. It's entirely accuracy. With an incredibly heavy draw weight bow, if you're struggling to pull it back, you'll be wavering. Because it's easier to describe, imagine dart boards instead of holes in axe heads. If your arrow would go into the bottom of the 20 point sliver (close to the bullseve but outside it) that slight upward angle means you'll get through say 3 of the axes, but will hit the rim on the 4th or 5th. You need to be hitting a bullseye to make it all the way through.
Again, doing that with a bow supposedly only Odie was strong enough to pull. Such a challenge prevents someone from winning if they draw the bow with terrible form to just send the arrow flying.
@@isaac_marcus we don't have he story of theses fights, but considering odysseus type of strategy , i can't imagine no bows implied.
So, 20 years without shooting any arrow, it's a no. But yes, it was nitpicking.
----
And we said the same thing about the straight line of the test. But you're focusing on the wrong part :
Any bow can do this.
This is my point, not accuracy :
You have a 160 lb warbow in your hands, but you can't pull it completely... the bow will still shoot.
You can just lift 18kg, 41 lb, you will still draw the bow with 41 lb of force. even if it's a 160lb bow.
Therefore, if nobody can draw the bow AT ALL, with ANY kind of force... it's not a bow. It's a raw, unbendable, piece of wood with an *untensionend* string attached to..
i mean... we saw the same video, a man can shoot with a ukulele ;) and a ukulele neck is not particulary bendy. Far less than a bow !
and since you can shoot an arrow with a berimbau (metal string, unshaped stick)...
@@Goober440 preemptive "edit" short version since my wording is anything but concise: in the version I read the point was that someone needed to pass a superhuman strength check in order to _attempt_ the skill check, not that the skill check required divine intervention to pass...this means a hell of a lot less than it sounds like though since "translations" tend to take extreme liberties even before you're talking about a story from an oral tradition that probably had thousands of versions before it was ever put to paper.
-back to the original yammering comment:
it isn't even so much a blessing of the gods thing either, at least not directly: the basic accuracy required for the shot is by no means considered impossible or even particularly difficult for a decent archer in the story instead the reason nobody can make the shot is because the required _path_ for the arrow to travel has almost zero drop: the bow in question is some "exotic" thing (from a writing-tropes standard it is a Magic Item but it's not supposed to be supernatural in-setting rather it is supposed to be something unique made with advanced techniques and materials) that was made specifically for him in an unspecified adventure-abroad prior to the story start. the bow has an *absurd* draw weight to the point where very few people can even _string_ it let alone draw it or use it effectively, the only way to make the shot in question was to actually use the bow to it's inhuman potential to get a sufficiently stiff (and thus heavy) arrow (to limit wobble I think? arrows flex a LOT in flight but I don't know if stiffness would actually reduce that since it's based on harmonic points, honestly a lot of the stuff in this section of the book read like it was poorly translated and possibly nonsense to begin with. I think the main point was that you needed to use a war arrow not a hunting arrow since both greek and roman cultures made a clear distinction between military and hunting archery) flying fast enough to have a low enough falloff to have the possibility to make the shot.
I loved how in the Ranger Apprentice books, John Flannogan mentioned that they "strung their bow" and the Halt and Will were "Muscular".
Or to be more accurate, small but muscular. Still fits into the archetype, but with extra accuracy
Yeah, their muscles are described as basically being steel cords.
I LOVE THIS BOOK!!!! Halt does say to Will that "an unstrung bow is a stick" which probably means that Will should keep his bow strung and ready when a foe may be in the area.
Thank you for mentioning this, I took it as a book recommendation and thoroughly enjoyed the first book!
@Kitten_abyss Glad you enjoyed it. I also recommend the Royal ranger series( A continuation of the story after book 12) and the brother band chronicles (same world as Ranger apprentice, but is about the viking sailors)
I really appreciate the attitude of "I'm not angry, just a bit disappointed" that you take to this list. Cause you're obviously skilled and trained so seeing stuff done wrong is going to get on your nerves, and rightly so, but at the same time you're not really ranting about it. But it has given me a bit to think about if I ever draw a character with a bow.
His attitude with archery in movies is much like mine in so much SF, when spaceships are flying like planes as if they are in atmosphere. Few shows/movies get it right. _The Expanse_ was a rare one that did.
Being experienced does not necessarily mean he's skilled. Important distinction.
@@NemoConsequentaeAnd not showing maneuvering thrusters even if they're mentioned - Star Trek is really guilty of that. "Thrusters only in Spacedock" but then we never see the plumes of the RCS firing or even see where they are on the spaceframe. You'd need multiple thrusters the size of a Rocketdyne F-1 engine to manage a ship the size of the original NCC-1701 and yet there's no ports visible anywhere.
The fact that you sacrificed an arrow to make a point about shooting at concrete earns my respect.
and a minor shudder
I died a little inside.
Dear Hollywood, please hire this elf for all of your archery scenes (or at least as a consultant). Sincerely, the audience.
Would not help. I know Asiatic archery consultants on movies that spent weeks working the cast only to have the director toss it all out becuase he did not like how it read.
Ouch!@@ehisey
It sucks because directors assume we value the action over the details but a LOT of people would actually love to be able to learn from movies. I don't learn anything from watching a fantasy archer in a movie but if I saw them carry their bow in a case I'd learn how bows worked in real life AND I'd feel way more immersed because it makes more sense when you think about it for a second.
Thats just film making in general. It's honestly absurd. @@ehisey
😊😊rzsrre@@ehisey
9:27 - Coupled with when they show that character prior to using the bow really struggling to lift a 3-5 lb sword. But sure, the war bow, no problem. lol
I'd love to see a video expanding on #3, like, a video briefly discussing different and distinct archery techniques from different cultures and places.
Me too! I think that would be super interesting, especially learning why the differences occur.
Agreed. I'll enjoy immensely a video, regardless of length, or even a series of videos that digs into the topic. Especially when each style is compared to each other to see their strengths and weaknesses. Useful stuff, this video as it is in terms of writing reference. More so if there's a guideline of sorts for archery styles and cultures research topics.
Agreed!
Briefly? Make it long!
+1 to this suggestion
I'm imagining your neighbours bringing their children and pets indoors.
"Uh oh, that lad's got his bow out again."
"Let's make archery a bit more interesting again" says a man hanging upside down on a dance pole by his knees.
I’m sorry, was that not interesting enough for you?
I’m hopeful OP means that, indeed, you are increasing the interest regarding archery by astronomical levels, David.
@blumineck I can totally respect anybody who can pull that off...
Oh, and you are crazy. Loved that video.
@@blumineck"ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED??" lmao
I'm 100% certain the OP was being sarky :) @@blumineck
That was really interesting! It gave me a bit more perspective on the Ranger's Apprentice series, and it turns out that for the most part it's hasn't done so badly on these points. Two things I'm not sure about - shooting flaming arrows and knocking aside other people's flying arrow's with one's bow - but it did seem to comply to these points, which was nice.
What about the 'unlimited quiver of arrows' trope?
"That's not a flaw, that's the dream."
Edit: This is a joke. Most of the games with archers I'm familiar with have unlimited quivers of arrows, which is why I called it a trope. Was joking that this is also inaccurate, but in a way most real-life archers would probably find enjoyable, so it gets a pass instead of being called out as a flaw.
Or magic
That’s just movie makers not wanting to show people finding or retrieving new arrows. Though showing this limitation can/should make for more interesting fights
If my Ranger in BG3 needed to restock basic arrows just to use her main weapon, I’d probably lose my shit.
@@TheEquestrianGallade BG3 uses alot of things from 5e so arrows wouldnt be that expensive, but they seem to run on a very popular house rule of only tracking special ammo. iirc 20 arrows only cost 1gp, so it would be tedius but very very doable.
@@KikinCh1kin just buy 1000 of them at the start of the game and dont worry about it, not like you have limited bag space, it not being an actual problem to overcome is probably why they didnt include that
Talking about this "need for training after a time without shooting" remembered me the book series "Rangers". I found it pretty realistic on that matter.. it's an amazing series, of you haven't read it, I definitely recommend!!
Do you mean John Flanagan’s Rangers Apprentice series because if so, I agree. I spent the entire of the video going “Ranger Apprentice doesn’t do this, go John”, and was hoping someone else knew the series. It is such a good series.
@@janusnightshade9848 same. the books make a point to NOT do most of these!
@@z.j.karasik9601 Exactly! John did he's research and you feel it whenever you read a passage about/involving weapons or battle.
in Princess Mononoke you can see Ashitaka stringing and unstringing his D-bow and also the torsion of the samurai bow because their archers shoot traditional war yumi kyudo style, and I love every second of it
I think another piece of media that has been fairly good is the Ranger's Apprentice series. While the rate of fire may or may not be improbable at times (it's a book, you can't tell how fast they shoot all the time), you can go through all these tropes and find them holding up (character trains to re-gain skill, unstringing a bow, even a justification as to using a recurved bow rather than a longbow).
And the power behind the arrow is explained too while the archer is totally flabbergasted with it happening in the first place... 😁
RANGERS APPRENTICE!! It’s literally my favorite fantasy series ever. I took up archery and knife throwing because of it! I have a cloak! What’s your favorite book?
Kyudo bow eh
@@claran3616 The Siege of Macindaw is my favorite in the series.
Number 9 and 4 can be particularly tricky in writing because the entire point of a crossbow is to bypass the skill and physique requirements of a bow, so if you make archery effortless in your world, and then later you wanna add in crossbows, you're kinda stuck on how to make it different.
Last year I tried archery at a medieval fair. It was a hunting bow, I am fairly muscular... And I actually felt how much strenght it takes.
For those that haven't shot before, most of the (olympic) draw is done with your back, not your biceps like a normal gym lift. You can see it in the video when he has his shirt off how his back contracts a lot. Most people won't weight train that muscle group so doing something like archery takes an adjustment while you get good form. You're also "lifting" the weight of the bow with one arm, so a war bow is a lot of weight if you're not used to it.
@@LastElf42most people don't train back? What? You high mate?
@@Krigalishnikov At least not in the way required.
@@Krigalishnikov i assume he means most people don't train *those* movements with their back. But idk anyway bc i don't lift
@Krigalishnikov exactly, people in Gyms don't train their backs/sholders to do a strong pulling motion sideways. It's like pressing your two shoulder blades together behind you. Best equivalent would be to rip something apart right in front of your chest but without emphasis on your arm muscles.
I'm shooting a 40lbs hunting bow and I'm not big at all. It mostly takes good technique and a bit of underarm strength for holding the bow and string and not letting go.
In my archery club most have reverted to lower draw weights already because there's hardly any benefit from going from around 35lbs to around 50lbs. The motion just gets harder and you won't be as concentrated after half an hour or so, meaning you won't hit anything anymore.
**respectfully**
Damn your back looks good
Disrespectfully agreed.
Fun fact about backup weapon with bows. I had to look up medieval weapons that are often used in fantasy settings, and do some research in all of them. (I was creating my own ruleset for my own TTRPG campaign, and I wanted to give each and every weapon it's own niche and identity.) Turns out warhammer was actually originating from archers using longbows. It was a small headed hammer they carried around to create their own defenses (like spikewalls) against enemy charges. If any foe managed to get close enough, the hammer came handy, especially against plate armor. When people realized this, they gave longer shafts and a spike to the hammer - and that's how one type of an actual warhammer was born.
So it is like modern soldiers using their shovel when in melee.
@@schwarzerritter5724 absolutely.
Well, I suppose the maul is one theory on how the common war hammer came to be.
Also people forgot actual archers are BUILT, that makes their hammers a bit more scary.
@bodyno3158 yeah, even though their muscles aren't built for swinging stuff so much as drawing the bow (making them likely more clumsy in close combat and comparatively weaker to their feats with a bow over a swing) I still wouldn't want some guy who is basically tossing around 100+ pounds of force daily to hit me with a hammer.
Especially if you are in plated armor... it's likely gonna cave in and you are gonna hate your life lol
Regarding weak archers… visited the maritime museum in Portsmouth and the Mary Rose exhibit where they had recovered longbows from a shipwreck. Over 150lb draw weight and the archer skeletons deformed from years of archery practice. Went to see a shipwreck and discovered some fascinating archery history.
Deformed or enhanced?
He just used a ukulele as a bow and arrow!
WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT THIS!
Sir, poll dancing Elf man, you are inspiring my next d&d campaign.
No, no, don't you see?! It's point number 2, the instrument doesn't flex, so all the tension comes from the string!
That means you need to make it a ukulele CROSSbow! 😄
Just to point a little fact, crossbows don't use elastic strings, they are "mounted bows". The ukelele bow can be turned into an ukelele over casing crossbow but it's still fantasy archery... which by the way, make it perfect for d&d... I would use a guitar though, more kick... 😂
@@spiker.ortmann And then add an axe blade for good measure. If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing!
I once had a D&D bard character who used a tuba as a melee weapon. The uke bow would have been an excellent ranged weapon for this character. 😀🎸
He didn't invent that idea, it is a trope in a lot of books where a musician has to fight; he just showed that attempting to launch an arrow with a stringed instrument doesn't work because the instrument does not have flexible ends holding the string like a bow does.
I loved this video. I shoot olympic style compound, and it hurts to see these things sometimes. the funniest part to me is that for modern characters like hawkeye, it would probably make more sense for him to have a compound, especially for the longer holds because that's literally what makes compounds and recurves different, you can hold a compound in full draw forever if you need to.
I have two defenses for the Monster Hunter bow's Mega Arrow 9000: the standard arrows are huge, yes, but so are the bows and the Hunters wielding them are absurdly superhuman, they're basically siege weapons. Second: the "Dragon Piercer" special shot *does* have a lot of guff strapped to the arrowhead... but that stuff is _rocket boosters_ that carry their own weight and then some.
[EDIT]: 9:25 And thank you for _that_ fanservice.
I was actually just about to come down here to defend it too lmao. The Hunters from Monster Hunter are superhumanly strong, not just capable of casually wielding a ballista as a regular bow, but also jumping off cliffs (that would leave regular people a fine red paste on the ground below) and walking away completely unharmed. Not only that, but the MH Bows are collapsible and some of their arrows (Dragon Piercer) have the ability to shoot through steel-plated behemoths, head to tail, without any loss in momentum, assisted, of course, by some ignited fuel source. They clearly have their own universal "rules". Physics works differently in their universe. That being said, the MH Bow is also relatively short range. It loses most of it's power if you step in or out of specific range. So there is, at least, *SOME* "realism" there.
Also its made of absurd materials and the people are sttronger than our humans.
I was gonna say, MH makes attempts to justify the absurdity of its weapons. The justification that goes the furthest is obviously how the Hunters are beyond peak human performance. An old fan theory even speculated they might be the remnants of a super soldier program from the setting's previous civilization since they got up to some...weird shit.
@@Evnyofdeath As further example of their absurdity (and further example of their superhuman-ness): they can eat an entire 5 course meal, including a whole roast, in one sitting, as the 'buffs' system in MH:W.
It's anime logic x100, and I love it.
The hunters can also weild the great sword which I doubt is very usable in real life and like fly using the insect glaive.
The game uses anime logic. It has the long sword and dual blades.
One series I know that gets all of this right is Ranger’s Apprentice. It’s a great book series, and I definitely would recommend it to anyone who enjoys medieval fiction.
A book I read once described someone as looking "like a leather bag full of steel cables". That seems ideal for an archer character, including this guy.
putting a reply so I can find this description because I love it
Cohen the Barbarian from Terry Pratchett's 'The Color of Magic'?
I think your right tho the wording wasnt quite that ....
really love how you actually show the quick reaction hunting like shooting unlike what the archery club was telling me to do (put quiver in .. aim .. straighten bow arm with a slight bent .. pul string back to your earlobe .. release.
You put quiver in.. aim .. pull back string to your jaw and release
Related: I'm surprised that you don't see Compound Bows depicted more often in modern settings to account for some of those things - especially because of how much easier it is to hold it at full draw for a longer period of time due to how it changes the type of muscular effort you expend and when while shooting with them. Those distinctions makes it better for different types of characters in ways that could be super interesting, especially when you have more than one character using a bow.
As someone who's much thinner and also has some hypermobility, compound bows were FAR easier for me to use compared to composite or recurve back when I did archery when I was younger. As you pointed out using recurve & compound bows makes a huge difference in the level of musculature you expect from a character to be able to be effective with them, but especially when they're more deadly and that muscle power translates into how deadly the shot is.
The added complexity in a compound bow's design also means that they tend to be carried more purposefully, and aren't as likely to be looped over the chest or assumed that they can be used like a bludgeoning instrument, which hopefully means that the other archer won't be doing that either and they both have backup options for close range.
Especially when you have movies like *_John Wick_* where they have a plethora of different firearms, it'd be nice to get even a basic representation of the different types of bows and what sorts of shots or situations they compliment.
(Thanks for all the excellent videos on the subject!)
@@DK_HAXX Well, your _MONUMENTAL BIAS_ got directly in the way of the fact that this was about using Compound Bows for specific character archetypes as a way to help diversify the types of archers being portrayed in media in modern settings. Compound Bows benefit the types of characters _explicitly _*_NOT_*_ specializing in the quick & agile techniques that better suit Recurve & Composite Bows, who also have a means to use their stronger musculature to their advantage, and thus should be portrayed to emphasize that like the video stated._
The video ALSO mentioned that Olympic style *_has its purpose_* and that is explicitly NOT in allowing for agility or multiple rapid and consecutive shots, but RATHER being able to take your time to hit a precise target as accurately as possible - _something Compound Bows directly benefit by allowing the full draw to be held for longer._ Your Rogue archetype is MEANT to be remaining TOTALLY hidden from the enemy at a distance because they're more stealthy than strong, and have to be better at landing hits on specific vitals whilst keeping undetected, which is… _everything Compound Bows excel at enabling a character to do._
That type of sniping means often being forced to remain still VERY suddenly until you can choose to release your shot, and if you're at full draw - _that's easier done with a Compound Bow, _*_ESPECIALLY for the physicality of the aforementioned character archetype._* You're obsessed with sighting and releases as a weakness, but don't stop to recognize that the diversity of the Compound Bow from Recurve & Composite Bows are its strengths _because they are DIFFERENT._
This means if you have a less physically strong character, you can STILL have them specializing in archery so that they fight at range & are more removed from direct threats of melee combat, and check that box. However, them not having dexterous agility & significant upper body strength are less important than stealth & careful accuracy for them and - _that's all exactly why you _*_SHOULD_*_ have THOSE characters using a Compound Bow instead, because it accentuates the differences the weapon itself reinforces, while also allowing OTHER types of characters to use a Recurve or Composite Bow for the dodging & rapid firing archery for quick, lithe, & agile characters who EVADE enemy fire rather than AVOID enemy detection outright._
Additionally, since Compound Bows hold at a very _specific_ draw weight that isn't continually escalating the farther back you pull like Recurve or Composite, this ALSO means that you could have that character train with non-standard arrows BECAUSE Compound Bows can dial the distance for how they fire and site precision _in a completely different way, because of how you can place sights and learn distances._ Exploding arrows that weigh more as ranged ordinance make _FAR_ more sense being fired from a Compound Bow than having someone with a Recurve or Composite Bow using them, _specifically because of the mechanical ways in which they translate the transfer of energy are more beneficial for that._
This means it makes more sense to use a grenade-like explosive arrow vs. throwing it because you have the benefit of accuracy _just like soldiers who can hit the same spot with a mortar round 5 times in a row._ It's a totally different skill set for their weapon's specialization that both makes them interesting AND recognizably different to an audience because of a Compound Bow having a markedly different appearance.
You made it abundantly clear you have an exceedingly narrow and _painfully elitist_ view of Recurve & Composite archery …but that's ALL focused around your niche scenarios in apocalyptic "looting, patrolling, & raiding" which is, once again, *EXACTLY why it's important to represent different types of Bows & Archery just as much as different types of firearms & combat specialists using them.* _Those types of bows benefit totally different types of characters and make stories more interesting with a greater diversity of how to portray that, rather than oversimplifying it all into this single bloated & inaccurate archetype _*_that you're just reinforcing with all your rambling._*
A sniper in a ghillie suit won't be great at looting, patrolling, & raiding in an apocalypse the way someone with a semi-automatic weapon would be. They are far better suited to defend a static "fort" position or strike before anyone knows they're there and reposition before anyone can find where they were. Compound Bows have a similar benefit at a far closer range, but comparatively without any sound at that closer distance compared to using a rifle even if it's heavily suppressed.
Like the video emphasized, there are COUNTLESS ways to make more interesting characters who still specialize in archery when you make use of the variety of _what actually exists_ rather than try to obsessively compare them against uneven criteria and force them into a single mold.
Green arrow sometimes uses a compound bow in his comics, i think he has a myriad of bows that do different things just like he does arrows.
@@DK_HAXXyou do realize it is prefectly doable to shoot a coumpound with your fingers? And that a lever bow is a sub catagory of compound bows? And finally the lever bow in the comics is relatively recent change from his long time use of a recurve and occasional wheelbow? It was I believe done to match the use of the bow in TV series, but have not checked the dates.
Compound bows are easier to draw to shoot, but a beeyuch to draw on paper. I imagine they would be a challenge to animate too.
The issue with compound bows is that because of how recent the design it (1966), you run into the problem that even a modern pistol would outperform it in any practical sense. So it'd be a pretty niche weapon, requiring far too much practise, only to be outperformed by an AK in almost all categories.
From what I've heard, another unrealistic thing that's kind of necessary for cinematic/gaming archery is the creak of the bow as it's pulled and then released. Apparently that only happens in real life if the bow is severely damaged, and a properly maintained one would be almost silent on the draw. But because media has conditioned us to expect audible feedback on almost every physical action, NOT having the bow make noise as it's fired 'feels' wrong to the viewer.
Much how car doors are specifically designed to slam loudly, because the psychological feedback makes people mistrust it if it doesn't.
Yeah, it’s a concession to the language of the medium, like threatening blades making the sound of sharpening when drawn
One trope I missed was, "Draw, aim, hold, hold, hold some more, hold a conversation about the ethics of hiring economically disadvantaged people at low wages, remember you're holding a bow, maybe shoot sometimes in a few minutes." It's a great way to reduce how many arrows you have the strength to shoot, and a lot of the time not actually doable with heavier end bows.
You forgot the worst part there. When they finally shoot and the guy says "fire" instead of "loose"...
This is how firearms replaced bows. Can you reload a crossbow faster than you can reload a matchlock after your arms are worn out from shooting a hundred times?
@@Shade01982Neither term is applicable if you're talking about historical archers. Every army had a code word or motion to direct archers to shoot. Historical armies have never said fire or loosely.
The fact most archers didn't speak English probably also being a big reason.
@@MenacingWithVideosBoth crossbows and matchlocks are slow to reload so I doubt either one would fire more than once in a close melee fight. In a long range battle the crossbow would be better simply cause it's more accurate over longer distances. Guns like muskets were incredibly inaccurate at range which is why armies lined up close to fire.
@@MenacingWithVideos Firearms replaced bows due to ease of use. Bows take years to learn, firearms take days or weeks. For modern firearms after just few hours of training you can shoot a target 150 meters away.
One thing I always appreciate about your videos is that you take the time to explain *why* movies and video games make the changes they make, even when you think they're ridiculous.
I would like to point out that in the book series The Wheel of Time the author Robert Jordan got a few of these things right in his story. Bows were said to be un-strung in places. Care was taken to keep strings dry (or have spare strings in a watertight pouch). And there were a few styles of archery and/or bows mentioned.
I think I remember hearing that Jordan was an archery enthusiast so it makes sense that they showed up in his epic.
That's cool! Jordan was really really good at adding details 😂 (for other context, his books kept getting more verbose/filled with lot of details. I reread the first few books a lot [as one of my fav books during HS], but never got past Winter's heart, where the level of etail just got too much for me and some other readers ).
Oh yes, and there's also the two rivers bows. Bows so heavy that trained solders couldn't use them.
Those books have been the reason I wince when characters are riding (through rain) with a strung bow, without anticipation of combat.
You even get interesting interactions like one culture that primarily uses shorter bows on horseback thinks the enormous Two Rivers bows (used for hunting) are ridiculous simply because they can't be used on horseback and how impractical they are unless you've been using them for years.
try listening to his books while doing something productive but repetitive with your hands. I knit but many hobbies & some jobs allow for this mental freedom. Makes the detail of his book interesting or at least easier to get through
Love that you didn’t cut when you stuttered and just restrated the sentence. Is so natural, thanks
Can I suggest an honourable mention of keeping a bow drawn for ages as if 'ready to shoot', when holding a drawn bow is REALLY hard and it's better to draw when you're ready to shoot!
Draw... hold.... Hold..... HOLD..... HOLD!!!!
Movies basically treat bows like guns. Anyone can use them, they require no strength and little training, and you can just hold them to someone as a threat forever.
depends on the bow, compound is pretty easy to hold like that . . . used to have to do drills just holding a drawn bow for like 10 minutes straight for our school team lmao
Actually, 'letting down' is what is needed. You can be ready to shoot, then something goes off (wind kicks up, shadow falls, your minds wanders for a tick) - you let down, regroup mentally and then re-draw.
True. I used to do this with my first bow to build up strength and endurance, it's brutal, can be severely damaging to the bow depending on the material and overused in media.
I really appreciate all the small imperfections kept in the video, like at 9:56. I don't really know why, but I guess it sorta makes the flow nice and feel more genuine, and weirdly enough it made my day, thank you! Loved how the sponsor was approached too, actually made me want to watch it ^^ Great video! Arf arff!
I think the point about injury or breaks is really cool. We often have this image of skills as this magical property inside of us as 'I am this good at this' (like a level in a video game) but really skills are a bit more like lining lots of individual processes up and then keeping at it so much they automate. If you stop doing it your body will lose things like muscles etc and if you change anything suddenly all those skills you've automated won't quite line up.
I really like the idea of treating this a bit more seriously with skill based heroes, especially in trying to approach media from a bit more of a disability focused angle. Honestly, a really excellent point on its own
to put in perspective ..i'm a cook .. I have cheffy knife skills .. unless I've had a week off .. then no .. I use a knife like everyone else and at that speed.. will prob take me a week to get all that muscle memory back. And that's easy! I used to do archery .. its much more of a skill than chopping some carrot fast lol
Yup. I had basic sword skills (HEMA), but I haven't used my sword for ten years. Now I can hardly flail it about, no way I'd be able to use it safely / accurately until I regain both strength and muscle memory
In the original Robin Hood story, he has a bow made to fit his strength (as you would) and almost no one else can pull it.
When he finally dies from bloodletting he becomes really weak and he is given his bow and shoots an arrow out the window to indicate where he wants to be buried, and naturally he can barely pull back the bow.
So yeah, strength 🙂
The one the drives me crazy is illustrated in one of the art pieces that you used: The absurdly shaped bow. I get that fantasy games what to show how one bow is more "magically-jacked" than a regular bow, but they end up giving it a construction that would actively work against the operation of the bow; make it more difficult, awkward or bulky for the user; or less effective than simply using a normal bow.
That's a problem in real historical weapons. The most effective objectively are simple and adornment free most of the time. Complex geometries usually don't add much. It was especially so in early cinema when video was poor quality. Keeping track of the characters is easier with extreme outfits and weapons- this also was the case for model making, 'hero scale' would scale up certain features and make items/weapons more iconic to give visual clarity to the miniature scale.
Feeding off one another and the fact that before the internet the earlier representations informed the later.
As a writer, I love videos like this. Even the littlest things that add a slight touch of extra realism can really draw people in. For example, when I wrote my fantasy novel, I knew to not have archers sit at full draw for long periods of time, portrayed them as not aiming precisely when shooting at an army formation, and had the officers say 'loose' instead of fire.
Keep up the good work! Some of us out here are listening!
After this I really want a video on the different types of bows and how hard they are to draw, how far they shoot, why to use this bow vs that bow, etc.
That would be very cool!
@@athens202 I think so at least :D like what is a compound bow? Why do a see wheels that have little wheels on them? Stuff like that.
Aye that would be an interesting one as Im curious about other types of bow too, I know my hungarian composite horse bow is far easier to draw than my Welsh longbow, despite both being the same poundage.
@@Reignlief The Welsh or English longbow, although historically important is actually a very primitive bow. When drawn the load /draw length graph is very curved - starts off quite easy then you have to do most of the workin the last few inches before reaching your anchor point. It just feels much harder then drawing up a bow with a similar final draw weight but a flatter load curve, such as you might hope for in a flat bow or a composite horn and sinew recurve.
Which is "better"? That depends! In the cooler damper climate of England and Wales most common folk would have found it very difficult to keep a composite bow dry enough so as not to disintegrate. There need be no glue in a longbow, so it's a better design for this part of the world. HTH!
@@titheproven954Compound Bows are a modernization of recurve bows to improve accuracy and ease of use.
Compound bows will nock through the center of the bow and also mount optical sights. They use a specific quick release to minimize adverse twisting or jerking on the string when shooting. All of these improve accuracy.
The wheels are pullies and cams. These allow for high draw strengths and draw lengths in a more compact size and allow for the shooter to hold less of the draw weight at full draw. An 80 pound compound bow will only burden the shooter with 20 or so pounds of the draw strength at full draw. This is to decrease the effort and exhaustion while aiming, allowing for longer aiming times are overall ease of use.
It would be really interesting to see where the crossover point between throwing and shooting falls with heavier and heavier objects ...both with and particularly without the mechanical advantage of the whirling wind up.
I love how you didn't take the trouble to cut the scenes where you're hesitating and stammering, but yet edited for the effect of "passing through the bow"!
Keep it up, always great analysis and enjoyable scenes.
I, now I'm subscribing to your channel. Been watching you shorts every once in a while, but you did a great job on this video. Thank you
When writers say the archer is "notching" an arrow instead of nocking. It's a nock, not a notch. Also, characters drawing a heavy war bow and just casually holding it and having an interminable conversation as if they're not holding a hundred pounds or more under tension.
The notching vs nocking might (at least partially) be blamed on editors/spellcheckers combined with authors who aren’t super familiar w archery - when I write, google docs ALWAYS tries to change nock to notch and I have to go back and correct it. An author with less confidence in their archery knowledge might say “oh, I guess it’s notching then?”
@@skylark7921 that's a great point, I hadn't considered that possibility.
Would be interesting to have a character hold a war bow at full draw for a long period, specifically to establish how absurdly strong they are. If you wanted to highlight it, you could have other characters marvel at what the archer character is doing, or be shocked at how casually the archer character can resist that much tension without any visible strain.
@@tbotalpha8133 Absolutely! What a great idea. Would love to see that.
@@tbotalpha8133 I imagine that'd be impressive but only to those familiar with archery. To the average joe whose only familiarity with archery is through film and video games, they'd probably not be too impressed since they've already been conditioned with the assumption that drawing bows are as easy as stretching out a rubber band.
I just came across this and must say, I find it one of the most delightful, refreshing things I‘ve seen in quite a while. Thanks a lot! ❤ (PS: and impressed with both your archery and story telling skills)
I liked in the Robin hood bookes that the bandits were practicing archery everytime they were not robbing anyone. Often as archery competitions .... + when Robin dies he shot one last arrow out of his window to mark the spot of his burialsite and he needed help drawing the bow because he was so weak.
Yes! I was just going to mention that!
Ranger's Apprentice is one of my favorite series, extremely low fantasy and well grounded (Not perfectly grounded but 95%), the author wrote in almost EVERY instance of the un-stringing and re-stringing of the bow. Check it out if you haven't.
I'm not an archer. I don't play dnd type games. I don't write at all. I have no reason to be watching this, it has no relevance in my life, yet I am glued to this video. Blum is magic that he can make all this stuff so interesting and entertaining.
P.S - PLEASE DO FLAMING ARROWS. 🔥🔥🔥
Thank you!
I’d love to, but I need a better space for it!!
@@blumineckyeah, back garden with trees and neighbors on presumably all sides seem a somewhat ill-advised place to demonstrate that! 😂 When you _do_ figure out a setting though, I absolutely second the request!
@blumineck you hear that folks? Find him some space! 🙂
Enjoy his musculature and form then.
@@mandowarrior123 😁
Honestly, your hanging off a pole upside down while shooting an arrow is what got me to subscribe! What a superb show of form! ♥
Thank you for pointing out the rubber string thing movies and games does, I am not an archer myself but I have researched it enough for art references for it to really bother me when that happens
No worries!
this is so useful, i was making a new archer characters and now i have a lot to think about again, and even new ideas for stories with them! thank you so much
When you said "gone to great lengths to feature a specific Native American Culture and Language" I cannot stress enough how that made me not only smile- but fervently not in agreement with the point you're making!! I did what research I could manage (the information is sparse sadly) on the way my Tribe traditionally used a bow for a D&D character of mine, and it really opened my eyes to how much impact the slightest variation can have on somethin like archery. It was amazing, and yet, I cant unknow it and having people try to correct me on archery form at the D&D table was an experience. >×
What did you find out about the shooting grips used in North America? What technique should the actors have done in Prey?
@@MenacingWithVideos
My tribe is Alaskan and with over 600 different distinct Native American cultures in the USA I doubt that the techniques apply to groups outside my own, maybe our closest cultural neighbors. Not to mention, I'm not a perfect scholar/expert so don't take this as gospel. But the stance and way they threaded the arrow into the bow is loose and almost casual. The bow was a low poundage one made of birch wood which was treated and wrapped. Multiple fingers were used to sort of, gently grip the end of the arrow and let the string like, slip from the fingers on release, often with a slight tilt to the bow- not a perfectly straight 45 degree angle sort of thing. The quiver was on a long strap and hung at the side/front of the hunter- it was also often decorated with beads and painted patterns. My tribe mostly used a bow for hunting, so I didn't find anything specifically for warfare. When Alaska was colonized even though my ancestors disliked it, what I've read so far is that the resistance was fairly "peaceful". They kinda were like "Nah, you can live here but you don't govern me." Which.. had its pros and cons. Anyhow, when you're hunting out in the woods with your dogs and a family member or two, their methods were more than enough.
As far as actors in "Prey" I've never seen that before so genuinely I couldn't tell yah.
@@Sellesion I like your response. Its good that you are keeping your traditions alive. Do some of the traditional techniques from Alaska take into account that you will definitely be wearing gloves if you are hunting in the winter? Do you place all your fingers under the arrow when you draw back?
@@MenacingWithVideos thanks! But I should clarify I don't personally hunt with a bow or anything. I just wanted to learn about my tribal history- their stories should be known. As for technique, the arrow shaft before the point rests on the middle finger actually! The thumb cups the bow and the fingers are extended, which I founs surprising. I only found one source for that though, so it makes me curious how much evidence for that there is. About gloves, I didn't find any mention of gloves getting in the way. So it probably was no issue. My tribe is on the southern coast so the weather is fairly mild for a lot of the year and I bet they didn't/don't have to worry to much about having to wear gloves 100% of the time. Especially since they view January as the "time where we sing and dance". It's a time of leisure, to keep moral up during the terrible weather, and works because all the work to prepare and store food was done in prior months when food was more accessible. In modern times my Aunts and Uncles still practice this a lot- they do a lot of smoking and canning during the summer. 😋
The archery crowd were dogmatic and loud and you still get echos that archery had to be a certain way. Thankfully they got debunked and thus there's a lot less now. Only a few styles of archery deal with warbows which these olympic style archers definitely do not. In the early days they would genuinely say 100lbs is impossible- even after the mary rose finds they said the calculation of 200lbs was wrong. Then a guy trained and shoots 200lbs regularly and reliably with the old techniques depicted that the olympic style archers said was bad artwork.
Hunting is again very different to target archery- depending on large or small game, requires you to track, shoot from hidden, shoot while moving, and shoot with a clear view if preferred. The 'decoration' may be more than that- tying soft things to the string to prevent reverberation is important in hunting archery, to make it quieter and not scare the prey, or if you miss at least scare it towards you instead. Colours are also useful to make your bow more visible if you put it down or so you do not get shot by your friends. Also large headresses and scary paint of dead animal hats allows you to scare off predators as well.
Most things have quite reasonable explanations and the decorative part is often within the allowance of pragmatism and varies on preference. Both camouflage and high visibility are useful when hunting depending on context.
I expect there are more to the traditions than you might think, perhaps rather than a clean release for example it was allowed to slip through the fingers perhaps that is quieter etc, or perhaps it is easier to keep stable when moving the bow. Experimentation to find the advantage or disadvantage is helpful.
One thing that doesn't come up often in story or art, but is important to remember: keeping your bow dry. A wet bow won't bend well, nor will a wet bowstring pull well, and the net result is a bow that won't shoot. More than once, forgetting this has killed whole armies of archers in history.
Someone needs to start hiring you as their advisor on archers in films!
PLEASE!
I'd definitely approve of more pole archery in movies
I've been seeing a few of your shorts and now watching this, and I want to say thanks for making these informative videos! I want to make an MMO that features archery and ranged weapons, and include realistic animations, physics, and mechanics, so this was helpful to say the least.
Yooo, I just wanted to say that you’re providing a lot of help in the stories I’m developing. You’re giving me ideas of what sort of “gained over time” powers the archers in my fantasy world could get to strengthen them, and to make up for some real world problems that I don’t want to be a problem for powerful adventures.
For example, instead of firing more arrows or larger arrows, they could over time be able to use a form of magic to recreate this effect with a single arrow. For example: an archer readies a shot. They hold it for a few seconds while whispering something, and their bowstring and arrowhead begin to glow with a faint light. They release the arrow, and in midair, four ghostly copies split from the original arrow, causing 5 targets to be hit in the crowd of enemies they were aiming at.
I am following for the same reason
Heh, number 9 reminds me of a trope I see a lot in RPGs outside of archery. An enemy's HP has no effect on their ability to strike with deadly force. If you have a group of foes whose skill levels and training are all on par with one another, but one guy has 500 HP while the guy next to him has 3 HP, the wounds for the guy with 3 HP has absolutely no bearing on how hard or accurately he can swing a sword. This is why in an RPG, the you focus your efforts one one guy at a time and don't stop until they are dead because the guy kneeling at death's door somehow still strikes with the same deadly accuracy as the guy with full life standing next to him, even though he's bleeding out because both of his arms are cut off. This has no bearing on how well he wields a sword.
Thank you for explaining the “same strength as your arm, but faster” bit.
Yeah it's like you can store up the force your arm muscles make and focus on one tiny point releasing all at once. I keep trying to think of a way to describe an arm becoming a gun but then I just start describing a bow again
BTW it is not entirely true, as demonstrated by a distant relative of archery, muscle powered (break barrel or pump) pellet guns.
An arrow can definitely at least in theory pack more energy than a punch primarily because more time is used to build up the bow tension, and compound bows or, of course, crossbows (which are not really REAL bows in the sense of an archery purist) allow building up this energy even more effectively.
OTOH energy is transferred to a bow in a pull motion, which limits the force to what the arms can provide - one cannot do the typical martial arts thing of putting your entire body weight into the punch. So, YMMV I guess.
Based on this, I wonder if one could build a device that transfers energy and momentum from a punch or kick to an arrow or pellet, and that way exceed what bows or air rifles can do. Obviously any such device would be way less mobile. But think about it - a soccer ball, kicked, contains more energy and momentum than a bullet from an average pistol...
@@divVerent I think the problem you're going to run into there is the efficiency (or lack thereof) of the transfer method. Kicking or punching something loses energy in the moment of impact (sound and heat usually). If what you're kicking or punching is itself a transfer mechanism, then you either lose energy twice, once in hitting the mechanism, once in it hitting the projectile, or you're actually just using the impact to trigger the release of energy already stored in that mechanism (like punching a button to release a spring under pressure). There's also the question of accuracy as the thing you're kicking/punching gets smaller.
@@divVerent Leverage is the device needed to transfer the energy but becomes impractical quickly. That's why break action pellet guns are so powerful with one pump because they use the length of the barrel for leverage. Compound bows also use cams to increase leverage on the bow and crossbows are using a gear reduction drive to wind back the string for more power.
Awesome video, this really helps with some ideas I’ve been having about something I may work on in the future. Love the longer video.
Great work David!
I really appreciate that you balance between pointing out where the flaws are in common archery tropes and having perspective on whether those tropes are important to correct. Instead of feeling nitpicky, it's just learning cool new things, alongside opportunities to improve writing - and saving the real criticism for something that has more important implications, like the diversity of archery styles
I will fully admit that i did not expect the sudden shirtless look and go "oh my!"
THAT aside? Very good video
Very informative
Particularly on the effect of the arrow when it comes to pushing someone
The archer bard is back with that wonderful voice
VENTI??
Fantastic video (no pun intended!) and kudos for being calm and reasonable about things that can be really quite annoying to archery fans. Also, great point about the Olympic style archery, it is far more common than other forms but, speaking as a 10+ year field archer whose seen a fair selection of bows and archery styles, it really doesn't work as a template for most movie/game archery.
You are so talented and provide your viewers with relevant information regarding archery! I love watching your videos. Thank you.
I found the information about bow tension to be really interesting as I also work with bows. Violin bows. Obviously, very different tools for very different purposes, but with a little bit of overlap. There's a screw on the end of a violin bow you turn to loosen and tighten the hair and if you don't loosen it after playing, not only will it stretch out the hair and ruin it, but if you made a mistake and forget your bow is already tightened and keep tightening it, you will snap your bow. The hair can be replaced. If the stick snaps, you have to purchase a new bow to replace it. Idk if you found this interesting, but I thought it'd be fun to share. I always had an interest in archery and just recently found your channel, so I'll definitely be checking it out. Thanks for the fun video!
You had my undivided attention till 9:24 then I forgot what I was watching completely
Stopping, rewinding, putting RUclips on full-screen.
You're not the only one... went from "this in interesting content" to "damn, he's hot!" in record time....
A fair amount of muscle indeed
Also a perfect example of a lithe, but strong, person. You don't have to look like the Hulk to be functionally strong. Love it.
glad I'm not the only one. I hope we're allowed to drool just a little bit
I took a few years break from archery. When I went back a lot of that muscle memory just kicked in again, no issue with hitting the same distance I'd shot before etc.
This is very true. If you developed the muscle memory properly over years of training even decades can go by and you’d still retain that skill. My wife is a perfect example of that. The rode horses and developed muscle memory that after roughly 20 years of not riding came back almost immediately. Practice how you compete and it will stay with you.
You always make sure to talk constructively about media instead of just complaining about it-it feels so much more comfortable and educational than just getting talked down to by an expert! If you're looking for more longer-form stuff to do, I'd love to see you talk about different regional/historical styles like you mentioned here, I feel like you'd bring a fun spin to it.
There should be an archery category at the olympics where you have to go through a course with obstacles to get around and hit all the targets
Also archer who isn’t physically weak: Robin Hood (especially Errol Flynn version, their set stunt archer for that film was AMAZING!!)
I want to see big archer barbarian now
@@azechase6597 watch the Scorpion King, the Rock playing a Conan-like archer.
tbf to Atreus, his bowstring is quite literally magical and so is he, I think there's some leeway there
Great info! This was a big problem with guns in video games and other media as well. Quality education like this is what changed it. Even if you don't like guns, even having a little bit of knowledge in how they worked would ruin the experience of it being portrayed incorrectly on TV or the movies. Also, If you need a video editor, lmk!
Just found you today. Subscribed. All notifications. As Pat Macafee would say "you're a weapon" highly impressive and well explained
Delightful video! I watched on a whim because of your short and enjoyed it a lot!
Thank you!
Yes, the short form video led me here, as well.
:) Well done.
Well explained and visually fun.
I've been an Archer (multiple forms) for over 40 years. Your video hit the spot and pointed at common bloopers in Archery portrayal.
One trope I really don't like, is seeing a mass of Longbow Archers being told to draw and hold at full draw before being told to FIRE !
Fun fact about arrow/bullet drop: Arrows and bullets fall at the same speed regardless of how fast they travel, so if you fire a bullet or arrow perfectly straight ahead and drop one of the same bullet/arrow at the same time, they will hit the ground at the same time… the only difference is that the fired ones will have gone much further.
It doesn’t seem like it’s true, but it is. Think about it… even though that arrow is moving really fast, gravity is still pulling it downward so it’s still falling as it flies. It’s just moving forward many times faster than it’s falling.
"It doesn’t seem like it’s true" Because it actually isn't. Arrows in flight as well as bullets often create a bit of lift. Its not that a lot, so the result won't be much off from what you described. I'm just nitpicking.
@@_aullik Bullets don’t generate any lift, it’s basically impossible because they can’t generate a pressure differential strong enough to affect their flight and the slight pressure changes around a bullet are completely negated by the rifling. That’s the whole point of rifling, to make the bullet fly as straight as possible unaffected by slight changes in aero effects and potential Bernoulli effects.
As for arrows, there are rare types of arrows designed to create lift and fly further but they’ve never been used because they sacrifice accuracy and power. Flying further doesn’t help at all if you can’t hit your target and have already lost all of your kinetic energy to air friction.
That said, arrows do technically create “lift” but it’s not what you think. Fletching generates dynamic lift for stability as the arrow spins. It essentially creates “lift” and drag in all directions to keep the arrow more level and straight as it flies but these forces are not nearly strong enough to effect the actual weight of the arrow and extend flight at all. This means that there is a net zero lift on the arrow and it falls at the same speed as it normally would.
In practice and reality a fired bullet/arrow will hit the ground at the same time as a dropped one, but understanding why/how is important too.
Fighting gravity is hard.. it’s rarely done on accident and requires maximum effort or hardcore engineering to accomplish it. Because gravity is one tough bitch.
Exactly, and the acceleration is independent of weight. He says the affect will be more pronounced with heavier arrows, but it's just more "pronounced" (in terms of distance, not time) for slower arrows, and for the same archer, a heavier arrow should be slower.
I will agree with wording it as "Arrows and bullets under similar conditions are subject to the same gravitational force", but I can't agree with being so general as to say they fall at the same "speed" as though no other external forces, such as aerodynamics, are at play in the universe. One could say that it's negligible, but in a big enough system, it can make enough difference that i can't afford to be so ignorant.
Since you specifically said "fire" a bullet in the original post, it's worth noting that a fired bullet spins in order to help maintain its trajectory against drag, and trajectory is measured in all 3 dimensions, including up and down. Gravity will certainly supersede in the acting forces on the bullet, but it's safe to say that a dropped bullet with no spin is not doing anything to maintain its trajectory vertically so much as the fired bullet is.
At least with rifles bullet trajectory actually starts by climbing, rather than being fired straight ahead. So with real life rifles it's almost there.
For example one I used the sight was accurate at 50m and 150m, meaning bullet was at same height at 50m and 150m distances. It was still climbing higher at 50m but is falling at 150m. It takes very little time to travel that distance so pretty much same still as firing straight ahead.
I watch the video from this channel for the first time (shorts are out of count) and the ad hit straight to my needs. Once even YT algorithm can do it's work lol.
P.S. Thanks for the video.
I love that you already have so many of the props for showing why these are bad ideas. 😸
They have all been entertaining to watch, and this video is no exception.
ETA: Love that you're giving a shoutout to artists who _could_ do better if they had the time and money to do so. ❤
Thank you! I’m glad I can continue to entertain you 😄
Of course! I know everything is a trade off, and it’s often not the artists who choose to cut corners!
I remember reading an issue from a fairly new release of the Thunderbolts where we see Hawkeye just standing and training his shots with his bow. Just so good to see a hero training with his weapon.
Love this. Every single one is a problem. Honestly, I'd move bow abuse up to the top, if for no other reason than the example it sets for how to treat the equipment that's liable to hurt them if damaged. That said, please please PLEASE use a bowstringer on camera! I know the through-the-leg method is more historically accurate, but I can't tell you how many kids I have come in with the modern bow they've been using with their uncle that's all warped because they never strung it properly.
Thanks! You're such a great voice for the archery community, keep this stuff coming!
I have used a bow stringer when I was talking about bows to use for beginners, but I’m rarely talking about real-world target archery in videos!
@@blumineck Fair enough!
Hm... Your best and most concise rundown so far(that still includes most everything relevant). I tend to be highly critical of the small things, because I wish to see things improve. But I can't remember anything that stood out to me here, good job! ^^
Linguistic pet peeve: people in pre-gunpowder warfare talking about 'firing' arrows rather than 'loose' or 'shoot' or whatever. In The Lord of the Rings, it seems that the verb in the prologue battle was a Sindarin construct meaning 'release' (or 'loose!'), but the subtitles nevertheless said 'fire arrows!'. It seems so natural, but it's pretty much always wrong. Interestingly, I think that most people would find it odd to hear someone speak of 'firing' slings or spears.
you sir are madly in love with archery, its a wonderful hobby and your passion for it made my day a whole lot better
I don't usually comment but this was extremely entertaining. Really love your videos and so glad I found your channel on this platform. Keep the content coming please!
The scenario where someone uses an arrow to shoot a rope across a chasm or raging river and then use the rope to cross with, is pretty unbelievable; even LOTR did this, though it was a lightfooted elf that ran across the small rope held into a tree only by an embedded arrow, and the elf then was able to tie the rope to the tree better and to use it to pull across 3 more heavy-duty ropes to create a rope bridge (one to walk on, two to use as handrails above and slightly to the sides of the first rope.
my number one trope is the lengthy conversation at full draw. If drawing back the bow is the equivalent of lifting a small teenager, just imagine having a casual conversation while holding said teenager up. I know it is not impossible but it should be seen as very special.
This is really awesome.😊 As a writer who loves to write medival fantasy and get stuff like this right, I love videos like this.
my pet peeve is when they lie the bow horizontal but the bow style wouldnt support that nor are they puling it properly. im always like "youd whack yourself in the face so fast"
In my teenage arrogance and desire to be cool when I was first learning archery....I did this exact thing! It... did not end well at all. Try explaining the really weird yet massive bruise covering half your face the next day to the school administration.
13:00 made me think of that scene in GOT where the Archer from brotherhood without banners is mentoring Arya and she says that she hit the target right where she meant to and he counters that she took her sweet time doing it
Film and animation need to hire Arrow Bard as a consultant, for real!
I've been shooting olympic recurve for over 30 years now and am still fascinated how wildly varied styles of archery are. What this guy is doing is so much unlike olympic archery that to me it feels like an entirely different thing. It's great to see people having fun with archery in so many ways.
Could we have a second camera that shows the target? A bit like a foot camera for a drummer‘s bass drum/kick?
I think he's using at least three (and the lawn) though - definitely the black (shed?) thing at the end of the garden, the smaller target on the lawn, I *think* the tree, and then a bunch of wild shots that just went into the grass. I'd love to know what his neighbours think LOL
One of the most offensive bow uses I’ve scene in movies, is when they took a script for a gunfight, and asked ‘but what if they had bows instead?’ Crossbows are not one-handed twenty-shot repeaters that require zero effort or time to rearm after each shot. Longbows are not hip-fire weapons you can spam several arrows with during a single acrobatic leap-to-cover.