Engine Autopsy! Tearing down our stuck Ford 351 Cleveland
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2024
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We tried to get this 1972 351 Cleveland running last time, but hit a wall when it wouldn't spin over. So, we pulled it from the barn find Pantera it was in and this week we're going to find out why it wouldn't budge.
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Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
0:50 - Why won't it turn over
2:15 - Unboxing
3:15 - Teardown begins!
5:00 - Rocker arm reveal
6:25 - Intake manifold removal
8:45 - What's under the heads?
11:45 - Will it rotate now?
13:04 - Ad Break
14:20 - On to the oil pan
17:00 - Rod assessment
18:46 - Hammering out pistons
20:55 - We found our culprit
21:40 - Is the timing chain supposed to look like this?
22:40 - Crank and cam removal
23:40 - How to remove a broken bolt
25:20 - Head teardown
27:58 - Outro
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Guys, this is a great build, please please please keep us updated, would love to see the Pantera driving and back on the road!!
That's the plan! Stay tuned!
@@HagertyYou could soaked the whole engine in white vinegar bath it can remove rust in a few hours as well it can break down oil and anything else. It would have been able to rotate the engine afterward
I suspect this car has partially flooded. @@Hagerty
starter under intake.. toyota 79 series chunk 4x4. 4.5tdi. wider front diff.. garbage toyota..clevo. best engine ever built. last forever.. fit 302c heads, mild cam, 300, 6l pistons, winner. dished pistons, if ran on gas. mine was lpg, 12.1 comp..dangerous.@@Hagerty
chevy guys dream of clevo heads. @@Hagerty
My favorite Ford Motor! Long live the 351 Cleveland!
Ford Australia made the ultimate Ford 351 Clevelands. Ford America and De Tomaso used the Aussie 351 4V motors at Le mans and it was a big winner. The Aussie engine plany made all its own blocks, cranks, rods heads and intakes, pistons and valves.
The block were higher nickle content over the versions in America and the cranks and rods were heavy duty race prepped.
These engines were in the Australian Ford Falcon XW and XY GTHO cars from 1970 to 1971, some engines went into the next generation XA GT Falcons.
BOB GLIDEN the Ford Pro Stock champ also said the ultimate 351 build starts with an Australian high nickle content 4v 351.
The GTHO's had american cast engines as part of the QC situation.
The GTHO used an imported Cleveland production engine not Geelong, the generation of Falcons after that like Mad Max were local production.
Cleveland's had oiling and cooling problems but look at those intake ports! Freakin huge
Yep, I think they're the 4V heads. 2.2 " intake valves from memory. I could be wrong and they're 2V, but they certainly don't look it. 🙂
Thank the gods! A new engine video
That Cleveland was rode hard and put up wet! A lot of folks might not realize, but back in those days an engine with 100k was unusual and most wore out way before that. Oils, engine tolerances and machining have improved so much in the last fifty years. I have an 05 F150 with the dreaded 5.4 3v engine and it has 335,000 miles. I’m still towing my 19ft travel trailer with it. The engine has never been touched. 👍🏼
Love this car, engine and the build!
My 351C has 120k miles on it and still has most of the cylinder factory hone marks.
also my 383/LB mopar ( daily driver charger automatic, and what a painful experience getting the transmission out as everything they didn't chop was damaged/flooded/acid-bath ect ) was held up by seased lifter's ( yes there was/is others bit's holding up as every possible port was filled up ie carb ect, tried saving/salvage it but ended in a futile experience ) in the bore's on n2 cylinder so yes the video's saying it can't happen is off but might not be common and also mine was vandalism on top of chopping shopping aka stolen around covid-time 2020~
I had alot of engines that had many more than 100 thousand before needing any work
@@mikecross4350 Were those running leaded or unleaded fuel? I noticed all my older leaded fuel engines had a lot more sludge in them and probably the oil wasn't as good back then. But once cleaned up and running unleaded fuel, they stay clean. Of course carburetion vs injection doesn't help either.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 leaded ....sounds like you were running Quaker state and didn't keep it changed
I knew that it would a four bolt main when I saw those massive ports. It’s a pleasure to watch a talented mechanic working through the issues found in an old motor. Hats off to you.
Those ports are WAY too big for anything other than a max-effort h.p. build attempt.
For a street car? NO way....
Ford 4V Heads used on the Falcon GTHO in Australia, race homologation special.@@davelowets
There is no guaranty there are four bolt mains in the engine just because it has 4V heads and open chamber vs closed chamber heads varied as well.
Can't wait to see this engine shiny and clean and running again!
Honestly I don't understand the mechanical part quite well but I love watching Davin work on a engine. It's like ASMR to me
Excellent project, a 351C at last. It will be interesting to see what the wash and magnaflux reveals. It would be good to see some upgraded parts without losing the stock look.
Well that went better than expected. While it's out the owner should definitely have the ZF transaxle inspected by removing the cover plate. (Keep a record of the shims.) They tend to rust from condensation on the inside. Once they get rusty the internals are junk. There are pictures on the internet of these transmissions perfect where submerged in gear oil and covered in rust above the oil line. Forty years of hot and cold allows condensation to get trapped in the case in humid regions. ZF's are far more expensive than that iron lump being torn down and rebuilt. Safety mod: The ring bolts on the final have a habit of coming out and if they get caught in the gears it can crack the case like a walnut. Most owners have the ring gear bolts safety wired for peace of mind.
Holy cow, think they didn't run the snot out of that engine, look at the slop in that timing chain and only 42000 mi. You can tell its a Cleveland by the size of those ports in the head. Can't wait to see the parts cleaned and watch it being magnafluxed. It would be really awesome to see that it has survived the abuse and nothing cracked and the original core can be rebuilt. Fingers crossed!
Unbelievable if you didn’t see it here,they ran it hard and neglected basic maintenance while they were at it.That sludge build up suggests few oil changes if any in 41k miles.
Thats why i use double roller timing chain and steel gears on every motor plus chainge oil when it gets brown
That engine was clearly running original nylon toothed timing gear used by many manufactures. I've replaced a couple in my day, One of the reasons I was told was they were quieter. I don't know if they were cheaper to produce and allowed them to save a couple of pennies. The process of molding the nylon on as apposed to machining a metal gear. Although now that I think of it the metal under the nylon was not of the same quality as a metal gear that could be machined. I just cant wait to see the episode of when they clean an test for cracks.
All Panteras until the after the mid 80s were Clevelands and that was only because new old stock ran out after production stopped in Geelong Australia in 1982.
@@drewwatkinson6604I doubt they were using nylon in 72, that was more of a mid 70s and on thing.
Tom and Davin fixing up classic cars - powerhouse viewing right there!
Back in my younger days, my buddy had a 1974 Gran Torino with the 351C. A valve face broke off in the combustion chamber, got lodged sideways, and the piston came up and forced upwards towards the head. Locked that engine solid. We took it apart and found that the force of that piston coming up cracked the cylinder wall. We found a donor car and swapped engines.
Please never stop making these videos. Teach a new generation how things are really done!
That 42k mile chain slop is insane. For all the steps back that automotive technology has taken to cut costs, the materials we work with now sure have come a long way.
You don't need to know the decade, it's in the part number. It also can't be a 62, because of the part number. The leading letter is the decade: Cxxx = 60's, Dxxx = 70's, Exxx = 80's, Fxxx = 90's. So, the D2AE-CA part number above the casting code reveals it was cast in 1972. This pattern carried on into at least the 1990's.
I have been salivating waiting for this episode. Interesting finds as to the cause. can't wait for the inspection and conclusions on what actually caused the freeze-up.
Can't wait to see how it turns out, a 351 Cleveland is one of my favorite engines ever
These old d blocks are a hero of mine as my uncle had a 351 GTHO . Legionary car here in Australia ❤️🇦🇺
My dad retired from Cleveland engine plants in 82’. Was nice to have a main engine line mechanic around when rebuilding a 70’ 351C-4v and my 68’ 302-4v. Thanks for this series. Loved the looks of the Pantera. Local dealership had one in their showroom around 78’. Loved it.
Never seen a new one. In 76 I was coming home on a 2 week leave from the Army, stopped in the town of 1500 just down the road from my hometown of 2000 for fuel and drink. Down the side street next to the station was a used dealer I'd never heard anything good about while growing up and living just down the road. But there sat something green I'd never seen, a '72 Pantera. Walked over and spent some time looking it over. I'm a Ford guy, big and small block fan, but was in my 67 fastback with it's 406 winsor.
I was really liking the car, kinda thinking about pros and cons of taking it home, then I looked at the exhaust. Drivers side was rusty, and what wasn't rusty was carboned bad. Before catalytic, exhaust could tell you a lot about an engine to a point. Went on home. Seen my fellow Ford fanatic and got around to telling him I'd seen the Pantera just down the road. He jumped in his 351 Boss and left. Came back and said did you look it over good and I said no. Said he had, drivers head was warped, stains on the block below the head. Didn't sound like it had compression on that side when running. I could see the wheels turning in his head, he had a built 351C he was getting ready to drop in his pony to rebuild then save the original in it. Took me every day of that 2 weeks to keep him from going after that car. Figure if he got his pickup sold after I left I'd hear about him having it but it was gone when I passed through there.
Often wonder if one of us should of got it.
a 68 302 4v. do tell. I have not heard of one. Was it a Shelby 302 4v?
@@robertmenger3230 yes 68 GT350 302 4bbl
@@robertmenger3230 You's funny
The 302 first appeared in 1968 as the successor to the 289 small block V8. The list of cars the 302 came in is virtually endless.
I just renewed my policy while I was watching this. I am very happy with their coverage, and love these project videos!
Their prices are great been with them 16yrs ,never a problem
...It cost me so much more for basic insurance on my beater MPG car I am considering getting a second car I could put under my Hagerty policy , like a Miata, because it will almost pay for itself in insurance savings instead of paying way too much for minimal coverage on a car I hate.
Thank you for your business!
Thank you for your loyalty and kind words, Kyle!
Add a hydraulic roller cam and lifters, roller rockers and a good double roller timing chain and gears. Can't wait to hear this thing run!
351C 4V 4 bolt main. That's one stout motor! Hugh intake and exhaust ports! That will be a runner when it's rebuilt.
It surprises a lot of people when they see the size of the ports and valves on the 351 Cleveland 4V heads and I think it would be interesting for many people to see the difference between the 4V and the 2V heads. I am aware of the difference between them but many other people are not.
I have cracked cylinder walls by just pounding pistons out. I learned the hard way. Lol. My go to way is to put an 1" of diesel fuel in the cylinder and light it with a torch outside of course and let it burn until it goes out. Tap the piston and comes out easy.
I really really love these kinds of videos where you go through each step of the process and it’s a longer version which’s very enjoyable so please keep up the great work guys!
Lee from Tennessee!
You know it's a bad day when you have to use a 2x4 and a 4 pound hammer to get the pistons out 😮
I remember trying to figure out why my 78 Bronco had a chronic overheating problem and I stumbled onto a Pantera forum one night and learned that all of the 335 series small block Fords (like the 351C in a Pantera or the 351M in my Bronco) have the bypass cast into the block that is closed off by a specific thermostat with a cup on the bottom to block off the bypass in the block when it fully opens. Apparently most parts catalogs list a regular windsor style thermostat with an external bypass as being compatible with these engines and they are NOT. The Pantera guys were saying this was the first thing to check, because keeping a Pantera cool is a pain even when everything is right and downright impossible without the right parts. I checked mine and it was a standard windsor style thermostat, put a robertshaw 180 in it and the overheating went away. Good luck guys!
Where was this advice 30 years ago? 😉 My 351C was fine on the move but overheated so much in traffic that I was constantly monitoring the temp. and doing an 'early tech' start-stop system with the ignition key. I have always thought it was an undersized radiator for the upgraded power. I'd still love to build another one and put modern ancillaries and EFI on it. One day...
Mine was fine (even with the incorrect thermostat) until I replaced the original water pump. I remember changing the thermostat at some point but couldn't locate the original, someone before me may have changed it.
I soldered a penny into the recriculation bypass insert and drilled an 1/4 hole it it because I didn't want anyone making the same mistake.
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to locate the original water pump either but I'm sure the bypass hole was sized smaller than the replacement pump and that's why the wrong thermostat worked fine.
You HAD to say that last part about get out on the shop and get something done.
😢😢😂😂😂
Im dreading tearing into this thing.
Glad to see another redline rebuild - Davin always gets a thumbs up
Not 1 power tool, what an OG!
A very good video to watch and I really enjoyed seeing a 351C engine finally!
I actually have one similar to this one that's been disassembled and awaiting a rebuild.
It wasn't mentioned in this video, but this engine in the video has a better bottom end with 4 bolt main caps which are easily seen in this video.
Another bit of info on these 351C engines is that every block was cast with the 4 bolt main bosses. Even if it wasnt machined and equipped with 4 bolt main caps, it can be. I have one in a running car that I rebuilt over 20 years ago, and one disassembled. Both of them have these 4 bolt main bosses, but are just 2 bolt main cap equipped.
To me it speaks volumes about the durability of this Ford block. There was no need the remove the ridge at the tops of the cylinders to in order get the pistons out. The one i rebuilt at over 150K miles had suffered from a damaged oil pan and oil pump sump which took it's toll on a bearing. When I pulled it apart, the cylinders were in excellent shape and I pushed the pistons right out. No detectable cylinder ridge. Also, I could still see some factory hone marks in the standard bore the cylinders.
My 120k 351c still has most all of the factory hone marks.
Like everyone else I can't wait to hear what cracks were found and where. Looks really bleak at this point. When the crank wouldn't move, my wee little mind was thinking. Time for a crate engine. Cut your losses and get this done. Yeah, that's not an original engine. But at what point is this a driver, or an all-original car that isn't driven and enjoyed? An answer only the new owner can provide. Really enjoying this adventure. Hagerty has Truely put some great clips out there. THANKS for the great content. Keep em coming!
I’m just glad to see Davin back
The early Panteras had a problem with the engine cover screen. If the car was parked outside and got rained on, the water would collect on top of the air cleaner, and of course some would find it's way into the engine. Whichever cylinders had the intake valve open, and likely two would at any time, would get water inside. That may be why you find two cylinders full of rust, but no evidence of blown head gasket. Ford corrected this in later models.
Pantera’s always seemed like great underrated cars. So I’m lovin on this build. Love this mid engine.
make sure you read about the coolant bypass port and the issues with it. lots of info but also lots of bad fixes so beware. lots of parts in australia for clevos as well
Thank you Mr. Davin for this spectacular class!
This brings back great memories from the early 80's. I built a Cleveland 4V originally from a early 70's Mustang and installed it in a 79 F-100 backed with a top loader 4 speed, was a beast!
There was a kid in my home town that lived in a tiny little house. In the driveway sat a white and a black Pantera. One was his dads the other was his moms. That was much cooler than the pair of Corvettes they had first.
Super fun to follow along and watch these guys work! I've had a few old muscle cars so this brings back memories. The only thing I haven't seen y'all do yet is skin a knuckle and cuss!
When I finally got my project on the road there was absolutely no question as to where I would get insurance. Hagerty. Period. These guys love the hobby.
Awesome to see this video after talking to Davin about it at SEMA when he swung by the Mo-Clamp booth. My daughter is already looking forward to watching the time-lapse and stop motion vid!
So it looks like it's a 4 bolt, 4V, 351c. Cool motor so far as the Clevo's go. Hope the heads and block are all good with it and can all be reassembled.
First engine I ever assembled was a built 351C back when I was 16!
Ditto, but I was 20 😉
I like this so much more than that circus show with Jason the trick camera angle guy. This feels like true hagerty.
I thought all Panteras had closed chamber heads so I initially thought that this engine had been swapped. After seeing those heads I did some digging and found that they used both open and closed; learn something new every day.
Cleveland engines are really fun...
You can soak the piston in the hole with a thin lubricant, connecting rod still attached to crank, strike the top and bottom of the piston until you get the wobble back and they drive out much easier after freeing them up that way.
You know much more than I do, trust me on that, but I did try to salvage some raunchy pistons stuck in a block one time and this method worked wonders...
Love Hagerty and how they do their builds!!! Keep up the great work!!
Going to be another great story. Each one better than the last. Don’t know how you guys do it but it’s awesome. Better than any network TV show. Can’t wait for the next episode !
Excellent. I hope you explain to the fans why a 351C is different than a 351W, and what the advantages are.
LOL @@mikec9112 ... that's a pretty opinionated statement. I love my wife's 351CJ in her 1972 Mustang. In my 50+ years, I'd take a Cleveland over a Windsor every day and twice on race day.
There are HUGE differences between the 351C and 351W. Same cubes…but, very, very different. There is a reason the 351C is so sought after. Enjoy.
Funny since several articales in Magazines and online Call the 71 351 Boss(its a 4bbl Cleveland) the best production performance small block of the 70's muscle car era. @@mikec9112
@@mikec9112 Right? I mean if you like poor oiling and a penchant for overheating and ruining your engine. LOL Ford didn't have some 'great' engine and then decide to stop making it. Only reason a Cleveland is sought is for numbers matching restoration. I have heard of people being able to mitigate the oiling and cooling problems. I built a 351W with 5.0 heads and I'm sure it made more HP than any stock Cleveland.
@@stevemadak6255 I think you’re on the right track here. The Windsor has some definite advantages, like far more aftermarket support, and a better oiling system. But a couple of points to add onto your statement, the Cleveland oiling problem really was only an issue for sustained RPMs in NASCAR type engines. But it was a problem, nevertheless. the overheating really was only on Panteras. That was a car issue, not an engine issue. But for sure the Windsor did not suffer from those issues. However, the Windsor did suffer from one glaring problem, cylinder head. That’s why the 351 Windsor was never a performance engine. Certainly not with some late 80s or early 90s iron 5.0 heads. The 5.0 could only muster about 235 hp. The head was just not capable of making power. And certainly not on a bigger 5.8 L. It just made the same power but earlier in the RPM band. Without question the boss 351 would make WAY more power.
And Ford did discontinue the Cleveland after four years. But that was for emissions, not because it was a bad engine. It continued on in Australia until the 80s. Obviously the Windsor is a great engine and has great support and has great potential. But that’s not to discount the fact that the Cleveland is too.
Finally someone is working on a 351-Cleveland my favorite small block from Ford (need a blue oval emoji here)
Would be cool to see this engine brought back ideally with as many original parts as possible.
Appreciate the sharing of this fine build/teardown video.
WOW... A blast from my past, when the 351C was still common and I was much younger I did a lot of these, thank you for sharing this it made me feel young again for a few moments.
Great work. Miss this kinda work. Especially nice in a professional shop. Did a minor rebuild a few years back, and forgot how much I enjoy it… thanks for the over the shoulder view of this. Look forward to the upcoming follow ups.
Cheers on the excellent rebuilt going on here. Out of all knowledge what you've pointed out @13:08 reminds me there's a beating heart willing to help others inside you Davin (& Hagerty team). May god bless you for it and reward you a 100x back for sharing such.
Nice update, keep the episodes coming on this build!
Looking forward to seeing this all cleaned up. 👍
Amazing work!
I can't wait to see all the machine parts cleaned and reassembled.
Always great to see an new rebuild. I've never seen such a low mileage engine that looks so dirty and worn out. If this is the original unit then it never had many oil changes and was overfilled and overheated more than once in its short life.
Thanks for the inside stuff and expertise.
I'm so excited to see this build. Pantera's have always been my dream car. Cant wait to see this blue beauty back on the road!
351C my all time favorite engine. Had 1 in my first car, 1970 Mercury Cougar, back in 1983, 84. Loved the tear down, looking forward to the build-up.
Great vid. Really enjoy the detail and watching a professional at work.
Finally a decent engine to see a rebuild on !
Really enjoyed both of you working on this motor. Hoping you both continue to work on projects together.
Minimal parts, maximum horse power. "OLD SCHOOL!!!" Great project!!
Awesome clip. I can't wait to see a complete rebuild on this motor and the entire car.
I loved rebuilding my 1977 ford 351W engine with my dad, this brings back so many memories! It was a 77 LTD.😊
had the boss 351 cleveland. I love that engine and it won me a ton of races. Great thing about this engine, I got to know the guys that worked at every gas station in town. 9 miles to the gal if I took it easy. that Mach 1, I could glue your head to the headrest through all 4 gears.. it is an engine, that you do NOTHING to the heads, the flow was perfect. no need, not even a lump to remove.
Very informative. Reminds me of hours spent with my Dad working on T-birds, Mustangs, Fairlanes, etc... Stuff that natural to him, I had to think about. Keep it coming.
Its nice to see an old Cleveland hopefully coming back to life. I have one myself. Mine is a 70 2V engine I'm building to go in my 79 F150 Custom Explorer truck.
Great Video! Looking forward to seeing what and if you find cracks
A couple of disassembly tips. To save the threads on the connecting rod bolts use a brass drift or brass hammer. Valve spring retainers: If they are really stuck you can save some wear & tear on your spring compressor by tapping on the outer edge of the spring retainer with a small hammer. Tap downwards on the edge, it will relieve the stuckness between the keepers & the retainer. Good disassembly video.
14:35 "start beatin' the [slight pause] daylights out of the pistons"...sounds like therapy to meeeeee
Thanks for the video! Your knowledge is astounding!
Love this series. Thank you. Looking forward to the next episode.
I heard that these Pantera engines were "GF" Australian built which can be verified behind the rear china wall, the Cleveland has a large C with the F inside it and the Geelong built engine has a GF cast in the block in the same location, It is said these GF engines had a higher nickel casting.
Love these two guys. Very interesting content and both these guys are terrific in their presentation and educational aspect.
Big fan of both of these gentlemen. Thanks for sharing. Well done!
Love these videos! Don`t stop making these.
For broken bolt. Sometimes it`s easyer to weld a washer to bolt and then weld the nut to that washer.
Greetings from Finland!
Waiting for the next one. This is one of my favorite AMSR moments. Watching others work.
Good to see you back Dave....nice engine teardown.... good content...thanks.
Always love the Ford stuff. I still go back and watch the 289 build about once or twice a month.
I had this engine in a 1972 Ford Ranch Wagon. What a beast. Pinned my speedometer past 120 in that land yacht.
I have a 1972 351C in my 1957 Ford Ranchero, ohh my so much fun 28:29
The Olds Aurora that used a 4.0 Northstar little brother had the starter under intake too.
Glad to see you back at work again.
This is AWESOME😍
Can't wait for the next episode😍
Thanks Davin & Tom😍
Special Thanks to Team Hagerty👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Boss 351! 4 bolt mains, big port heads
Awesome , always a pleasure watch your project, thank you for sharing 👍👍👍👍
Lifelong ford guy and have owned virtually almost every engine from straight sixes, 289, 302, including Boss 302, 351w & 351c, 390, 428cj, 427, 429cj, 302HO, 4.6 2v and 3v, 5.4 triton and Coyote and last but not least 6.7 power stroke diesel. Those are 351c 4v heads which like the Boss 302 heads had amazing flow potential, really too much for the street for normal driving which is why they are so carboned up. Heads made to be on engines that revved up continuously.
Looks like the oil was never changed and was road hard and put up wet 😊
Listening to those Craftsman ratchets is painful. Sponsors will be sponsors. Great video!!!!
I think my first evaluation of the car based on the condition of the engine bay and the bottom of the car that it was neglected way back when it was running still holds true with the condition of the inside of the motor. It was parked because it wasn't running right and then forgotten.
nice work, clean shop!
Fellow gen X here. Nice to see old school spanners, rachets and speed braces
I have been familiar with these engines for years. Street and race versions. Open chamber heads are trouble-prone. Cracks between valves. Detination. No quench. Oil drainback issues. Procure a set of O.E. closed chamber or aftermarket heads. Blocks commonly have coreshift issues, thin cylinder walls and main saddles may reveal cracks. Check carefully. Non-priority oiling needs improvement. When everything is right though no other domestic small-block engine of the era can make more power. Pantera's are so cool!
Sweet, a new redline rebuild video ! I laughed a wee bit to hard at Tom high tailing it 🤣🤣