The problem is that it takes years and years to learn the trade and they business of it is hard to establish when new , in other words it’s not a very profitable business in today’s business world , you can make way more opening up an auto body shop or a mechanics shop
One can self teach machining skills and machine tools/equipment have never been cheaper .. pick up a used lathe and mill and go at it .. far cheaper than paying for an education course.
Honestly, the Hagerty Team should be running a training program to put kids through this machining process. It's not something that's seen anywhere in the education system unless you pay big bucks to get it from an automotive performance school. Even the military won't teach you all the "ins & outs" of the machining process. Great stuff here guys. Thanks for posting all this great content.
Seriously. Same with top fuel drag bikes. All the drag bike teams are all old geezers and no young people around for a mile. Perfect opportunity for young people to apprentice.
My machine shop training was at a southwestern Michigan school that at the time was the number 3 high school machine shop at the time. Learned many machining practices. Finished a die for a wire manufacturer that was dead on the numbers of the blueprint. Got the school $10000 for the completion of the die.
As a machinist myself, who occasionally does engine work, watching you work is amazing. I hope you never stop making detailed videos like this, you definitely have loads of talent and knowledge.
I thought when they rolled it out of the shed this was going to be a 2 episode series maybe 3. This is my favorite Hagerty series ever. Even with the process so far over my head, its gripping content. I can't help but marvel at the skill level of these people. Davin is great at leading through the whole process. So Cool
Please keep the videos going on this Pantera all the way to reassembly, firing back up, test driving all the way to mods, testing, etc. I am living my dream of this car in this series..
A really great machine shop (like this one), are very hard to come by nowadays. These guy's really know their stuff as far as machining blocks, heads, and balancing everything out to perfection. 😊
It’s the detail that holds me, the presenter is clearly familiar with build and relies the machinists’ specialties, no drama or speciality promotions a big plus
You touched on how deep you can & can't drill. I drilled the oil passage front to back on a 2.3L Ford engine to get better flow up top to the cam and followers & only just barely breached one heder bolt holes. I bottom tapped it and locktighted a fitting in, then shortened that one bolt. The 2.3L usually need a cam & followers after approx. 50k and I still had 60lbs oil pressure @ 200k miles. Another factor was after 1k miles break in, I tore it apart and hand fitted all the bearings. These steps to balance & line hone you are doing are just a few of the key steps to a lasting engine. I bet this engine will out live you.
Happy to see this return to some "classic" Redline Rebuild content! The car fixes are fun, but this is what brought me to the channel...well, technically it was the Ford 289, but having the engine builds back has been great 🙂
I truly appreciate seeing what happens when you send a block to a machine shop. This seems to be the only channel on youtube that shows that. Keep up the great work. Look forward to seeing that pantera back on the road. 👍👍
I love to watch machine work. Another good channel is @jamsionline - Jim's Automotive Machine Shop Inc. They do some really detailed and descriptive videos on a lot of different engines and machines.
i took a machining class this semester and let me tell you it’s not an easy job at all but it’s so rewarding once you finish your part and everything is in tolerance
Just a little factoid, the Cleveland engines were machined as the first engine Ford manufactured on computer controlled equipment. It won't affect anything to drill into the intake ports for threading. Just use sealer on the studs.
It's like watching a form of 3D ARTWORK - bringing this 'Crusty Ford V8' back to life so she can perform once again in all her glory in the 'canvas' which is the Pantera.
Fascinating process you’ve shown here. I find it interesting how much work goes into a rebuild, especially one that involves unraveling the ravages of time these engines suffer. It makes me wonder if some of these engines left the factory with deficiencies built right in. You mentioned that the oil passages were oversized which created the over oiling problem. That’s similar to the flathead engines with the oversized cooling passages that allowed too much coolant to flow, causing overheating issues due to the coolant moving through the system without being able to dissipate the heat. Thank you to all of the fine craftsmen involved in these videos, what you do is absolute magic.
I was a machinist many years ago, in fact I actually did the much of the machining on the Lunar Rover drive units. I really miss taking a chunk of raw metal and making a finished part out of it. And yes, it is a dark art.
All great Machine Shops, brings back good Ole memories, most younger people don't realize what it takes going thru all the fine detail work of a high class machine shop..nice work an filming an explaing everpart tks too all..guys
Great build! Restricting the lifter bores, or sleeving them for wear, in either case is a good time to check the block for core shift in the lifter gallery area. Some engines are prone to that and can affect lifter & cam wear, valvetrain geometry, etc. especially for a performance build. I don't believe the Cleveland is prone to that though. Will be following this series! I love the Pantera.
What's neat about the evolution of engines is how manufacturers acknowledged a lot of these oil starvation issues and slowly made it standard in their own production. This is why modern cars get more and more reliable.
I know it is too late, but to possibly help the next guy/gal, Cleveland’s are known for core shift when casting. It is best to sonically test the cylinders for thickness before boring. 30 over is generally max overbore without testing. Again generally. As a life long clevo guy, glad you are saving one.
Finally a real machinist that machines parts by hand. I'm tired of these kids who doesn't know how to turn a wrench or tap by hand. Most times when I see a video of a dumbest and his battery powered drill and impact gun I close the video because I know that they are a hack. The Cleveland was Fords attempt to manufacture a small block engine for Nascar. It had no use for street ability. It's rpm range was 3000 - 7000 rpms. So many of them blew up, and they wouldn't pass emissions, and that is why they only continued building them in Australia. For nostalgia reasons you spent a reasonable amount of money to rebuild it. Your time irrelevant because you used it to promote your business or make a video. Good job!
Having worked in an old school engine shop in the early 80s my biggest buzz was giving motors that looked like they were gone a new lease of life. Marinised motors especially..................
TrickFlow makes a pushrod for 351C with a restricted oil passage that takes care of the upper cylinder over-oiling. No need for the lifter bore bushing. I have EXCELLENT oil pressure to the crank and rod bearings now. The other 'Must Do' on a 351C, to take care of the factory uneven cooling that causes overheating of the rear cylinders, is to insert a bronze freeze plug under the thermostat and drill a tiny 'air bleed' hole in the center of it. You then can use a 'standard' 160° thermostat instead of paying for the expensive 'Cleveland Only' thermostat. Car runs at 175° all day.
I'm thinking if you made the oil drain holes bigger in the lifter valley it would return the oil must quicker to the pan. I had a 302 block machined at our Ford Guru Machine shop in Charles City, VA and he open up the rear of the lifter valley,. He told me that this will drain the oil a lot quicker to the oi; pan. This was for a 331 Stroker I built for my 1995 Mustang GT.
I was not aware of the oiling issue you mentioned/corrected. Gotta be honest, the "pucker factor" reaming the block would be intense! Thanks for the full walk through - like others have written - this is becoming a lost art sadly. ~ Chuck
With all small block Ford V8's, when possible i will drill out the oil drain holes in the heads. Then, when possible i will polish those holes. Sounds like overkill, but i haven't had any small block Ford engine fail yet. Only been doing this since 1984.
Thoroughly enjoyed this episode, the details of the "build" are great, and I have worked with the guys at Thirlby's myself on several builds, they are professional, quick and look out for your interest. Cheers!
I admire the work with lifter oil gallery's to reduce so much oil getting pumped up top... but most people I know increase the size of drain holes in middle of block to let extra oil drain back down ...fit a bigger volume sump with baffles and get on with life
Caution on going over .030 on a Cleveland or modified as they were horrible for core shift. I have done them .030 and hit water. Have your block sonic checked. A common practice in my shop is to do all 8 in 1/8 wall sleeves.
I really love these long format videos full of information and especially this one with the technical machinery and how they work is really fascinating so thank you guys very much and keep them coming! Lee
Yella terra in Australia sells race rockers for Cleveland that doesn't need guide plates.. they have lots of cool stuff for Clevelands.. The lifter bushings is a good update.
I love watching you guys build engines and the quality work you always do but really bushing the lifter bores is overkill unless you plan on 8k rpm sprints.A simpler way to restrict oil is to use pushrods with smaller holes and it actually works great.I've ran Clevelands my whole life and never really bought in to whole oil starvation thing.The oil system might have been backwards but Ive taken apart many 351c with over 200k miles and the crank journals always showed very little and even wear.On a street driven car I think these mods are not worth it as the engines oiling system however backwards it may be has always done its job on the engines I have dealt with.Also I would be extremely nervous about getting all those brass fragments out of the block!
Questions: -Instead of using slives could you line welding and after boring it back to spec? -When you hammered down the oil bushings shouldn't you use some locking compound like Loctite 603?
Back in the day, the schools had metal and wood shop, as well as auto shop. I spent 35+ years as a manual machinist and it HAS become a "lost" art. Was pretty hard to find folks who could do the job, let alone stand most of the day...
I just recently sold all my old Cleveland stuff. 4-bolt blocks, closed chamber 4v heads, closed chamber Ausie heads too. All were already done with screw in studs, guide plates etc....
Down here in the antipodes,we even used the 351 Cleveland with a 3" stroke and 6.03" inch rod..Even with the greatly reduced conrod loads and 188 to 240 horsepower, the 130 to 90 thou wall thickness Cleveland would split or get perforated bores. Ford Australia even had a lawsuit taken against them for sleeving Cleveland blocks from the factory as a way to reduce scraping the blocks with poor core shift. I'm glad your doing what the Australian factory did with the imported US Cleveland Engine Plant 2 tooling, sent to Australias Geelong line, after the short deck Cleveland engine run finished in mid 1974..
My uncle used to race in the mid 70s had the same problem with a high RPM SBC and he solved the problem by putting pipe cleaners into the push rods got to love old school ingenuity
Hey! Great build to watch, I was always interested in the Pantera, and seeing its engine down to bare block is fantastic. Just remember, when machining, use oil and not WD40 to lubricate the tool!! WD is more a detergent than a lubricant, it doesn't do good for the tool
I noticed the gargantuan chambers, must be a 72 Pantera. I also hate bronze guide liners, mostly because I dont have the tooling for them. Also I notice they wear really bad. I use PEP manganese bronze false guides which hold up a bunch better.
I was wire brushing mine down to paint it. around #4 cyl freeze plug. I noticed what looked like about a 1/8"hole. found 2 just like it once paint was gone. It actually rusted out from the inside out and put 2 small holes in the side of the block. This motor is gonna be the one that I build that outlasts me. Its been blown up and worn out. Cleaned and put most of it all back together. Some stuff 10x too loose some too tight. It should be ready for a 500 shot fogger no issue lol. My $$$$ motor will let go on break in i bet.
So much improvement on this old lump. Oil distribution, roller setup, external balance, etc. This engine shouldn't need major work ever again given how lightly these cars are used now. I echo others sentiments about the disappearing full service machine shop. Gone are the days you could drop an engine off for work locally. It almost always involves shipping and a long nail-biting wait to get it back hoping the business doesn't end up in receivership with your numbers matching castings still in process.
Thanks for using a 351c that just happens to be what I am looking to do on this one iam building, my block was sitting for 40 yr in a humid environment, iam hoping cylinders will go 030 from being so rusty, I will be bushing lifter bores also, enough of my flapping gums, Thanks for this great video guys👍🏻💯💯💯
I really like the episodes at the machine shops. The machines are fascinating. That's going to be a bad ass motor. Looking forward to seeing more of the process.
This is pretty cool to see. Im currently working in a factory machining aluminum valve bodies with the intent of taking what i learn there and one day having my own machine shop
Does this block have the Pantera engine number stamped on it? Couldn't the potential oiling issues have been addressed with more restrictive pushrods? That is a lot of work on those 4v (open chambered) cast iron heads. Why not buy aluminum ones, save a hundred pounds (and paint them blue if you want it to look stock).
You are correct on all accounts! Aluminum heads were considered. Secretly, we were hoping the heads were cracked so it would force our hand that way! However, we try as much as possible with many of our builds to maintain originality when we can. Ultimately, the owner of the car opted to keep the original heads.
What a pleassure this videos are to watch dude, Davin, the crew at the machine shop, john at Apex comp just all people doing the work we love to watch and the knoledge and passion the have for it to tho. Can't wait to see this engine im the pantera again but first... In the stand.. ready to roar to life again, healthy and better than ever was, thanks again for sharing all this things hagerty, hope it never ends❤ Keep up the work guys!
Back when I was a machinist at Caterpillar Tractor I prefered cast iron over steel because when drilling and tapping steel if you hear one squeak its getting ready to seize in the hole. Grey iron because of the graphite in the metal is somewhat self lubricating and much easier on taps and drills.
Man, old Cat engines are some of the best engines I’ve even seen, my Dad has some heavy equipment from the 70’s and 80’s and those Cat diesels will run until the end of time. My brother also has a 1998 Kenworth W900 with a 3406 and that’s probably the best over the road diesel engine ever made.
I love the detail spent, but is there any reason you didn't opt for a set of alloy cylinder heads, surely the cost of a pair of them with all the fruit, would flow better, have all the modern characteristics and featires designed into them, and also weigh a significant lot less, esp high up on the motor. The motor still keeps original matching numbers too
I’ve always been a huge hagerty fan. Yet This video is single handedly the best produced. Direct to machinist education of a ‘disaster recovery’ motor I ever experienced. On a Pantera no less. 👍 I just gotta quick questions. A) did you bore 30over on 7 cylinders. B)Then over bore the 8th to sleeve & match? C) and wasn’t line boring by hand a little risky without lathe etc. D) same for oil channel hone? By hand?
I'm not sure about American Cleveland blocks but in Australia the 302 and 351 blocks were cast by ford australia and suffered core shift during casting so some bore were thin one side and thin on the other and with the oiling system, in the touring car series and during Bathurst at the time, they had to run production blocks and they suffered low oil pressure because all the ended up in the valley due to small drain holes and fix was to drill all the holes out so the would drain back to the sump
I miss the good times I spent in engine rebuilding and repair shop class. RIP mr Edwards, the man was a legend, wrote books on the subject. John G Edwards, if u need some reading materials I highly recommend his methods
@4:35 I had a 'tipped deck' on a SBC 350 years ago. The machine shop did as much as they could. I still think we were .002 off front to back but it was a street motor and we weren't gonna race Grumpy so I wasnt worried about it. Took a lot of material off though and ended up having to use a .060 copper shim head gasket to get enough quench. Sold that Chevelle when I got divorced in 2009. I still see it running around sometimes.
I’m convinced 350 sbc’s will run until the end of time. My Dad bought a new 1995 GMC 1500 back in the day and it went from him, to my brother, to me, and then to my cousin, and back to me before I ended up selling it to a landscaper for cheap. It had 445,000 miles by the time I got rid of it and outside of using a quart of oil between changed it ran great. I have no doubt it’s running to this day. There’s definitely a good reason GMT400 trucks and SUV’s are so well regarded to this day.
I did the same work your engine machinist does. Saw many blocks twisted at the decks like this one. I always assumed they moved from heat and a lifetime of running in a street car. Some blocks were as much as about .010" twisted from side to side.......I used a Storm Vulcan 85B to mill blocks and heads and bored blocks with the same Kwik-Way your guy is using.....Did that for over 10 years....
A few years ago I brought an old 6 cylender back from the brink. I NEEDED three sleeves, the shop strongly suggested to do all six, this would bring the block back to original but for the decking that had already been done. At what point do you make the decision one sleeve or do them all. Is it just money ?
Definitely a case-by-case decision! Cost is certainly a big part of it. We have had engines in the past where once we get to over half the cylinders needing sleeves, we just do all of them. Parts availability is another part of it. Sometimes the engine has already been bored out and rebuilt once, and you can't go any bigger, so sleeves in every cylinder is the only option!
It’s gratifying to see a guy like John working on those heads. Judging by some of the guys about that age that my two daughters drag home, who can’t even drive a straight shift, I’d about lost my faith in the current state of manhood in this country. But I guess my girls are looking in the wrong place, or not looking hard enough, because seeing a young guy like John, with his knowledge and skills, proves there’s still hope for manliness in America.
agree that we need to elevate the trades more, and appreciate the skills of the tradesmen. OTOH, its a big world out there and there's room for all kinds of people.
It seems that even reading a six-inch scale is too much. Let alone a dial indicator. It took an old guy to show me with a lot of wise cracks and patience. But I learned how to get it right and made my share of mistakes. I noticed that that old guy was sharper than he looked. The Guys and Gals out there Like John are truly reassuring that all isn't lost. Yup worked with some Gals that were handy on a Bridgeport or Cadillac turret lathe. They were no joke. You know I really enjoy this build. The 1st run up should be interesting.
When you ream with a handheld powertool you should rotate the block so the reamer is vertical. The u-joint does certainly help, but with the tool at an angle it's pretty much impossible to not apply a side load and throw the bore off axis ever so slightly. The weight of the reamer itself is enough to do that.
@@bhaebe6671 Lifter bores don't really matter that much. Just gotta be a good fit, you can use a sand roller to clean up an old rusted bore and it'll be fine. Precision is needed in the cylinders where you have hundreds of PSi at combustion.
While you didn't show it, you did de-burred the holes in the phosphorous-bronze bushings right? Being the owner of an MGA, I've replaced the rocker bushings on a few occasions as they've worn out. De-burring is a critical step.
The machine shop is seriously a dark art these days. Idk anyone who is going to school for it. So underappreciated. We need more of you.
And booked for months to years in advanced when you do find one.
The problem is that it takes years and years to learn the trade and they business of it is hard to establish when new , in other words it’s not a very profitable business in today’s business world , you can make way more opening up an auto body shop or a mechanics shop
Most of the newer engines are throw away
One can self teach machining skills and machine tools/equipment have never been cheaper .. pick up a used lathe and mill and go at it .. far cheaper than paying for an education course.
I’m going next year!
Honestly, the Hagerty Team should be running a training program to put kids through this machining process. It's not something that's seen anywhere in the education system unless you pay big bucks to get it from an automotive performance school. Even the military won't teach you all the "ins & outs" of the machining process.
Great stuff here guys. Thanks for posting all this great content.
I got my initial machinist training in the Air Force.
@@davecaron1213 I got some while I was on board the USS Nimitz while at sea. Great fun but there was sooooo much more to learn.
Seriously. Same with top fuel drag bikes. All the drag bike teams are all old geezers and no young people around for a mile. Perfect opportunity for young people to apprentice.
My machine shop training was at a southwestern Michigan school that at the time was the number 3 high school machine shop at the time. Learned many machining practices. Finished a die for a wire manufacturer that was dead on the numbers of the blueprint. Got the school $10000 for the completion of the die.
That was the plan all along when they started pushing College in the School Systems years ago. Vilifying Trade Schools and programs.
As a machinist myself, who occasionally does engine work, watching you work is amazing. I hope you never stop making detailed videos like this, you definitely have loads of talent and knowledge.
I thought when they rolled it out of the shed this was going to be a 2 episode series maybe 3. This is my favorite Hagerty series ever. Even with the process so far over my head, its gripping content. I can't help but marvel at the skill level of these people. Davin is great at leading through the whole process. So Cool
Incredible. Please 🙏 keep these videos coming. You are keeping a lost American art alive.
Old school shops like that joint build some bulletproof stuff man.
And most folks can afford it
Gonna have to follow along
Please keep the videos going on this Pantera all the way to reassembly, firing back up, test driving all the way to mods, testing, etc. I am living my dream of this car in this series..
A really great machine shop (like this one), are very hard to come by nowadays. These guy's really know their stuff as far as machining blocks, heads, and balancing everything out to perfection. 😊
It’s the detail that holds me, the presenter is clearly familiar with build and relies the machinists’ specialties, no drama or speciality promotions a big plus
You touched on how deep you can & can't drill. I drilled the oil passage front to back on a 2.3L Ford engine to get better flow up top to the cam and followers & only just barely breached one heder bolt holes. I bottom tapped it and locktighted a fitting in, then shortened that one bolt. The 2.3L usually need a cam & followers after approx. 50k and I still had 60lbs oil pressure @ 200k miles. Another factor was after 1k miles break in, I tore it apart and hand fitted all the bearings. These steps to balance & line hone you are doing are just a few of the key steps to a lasting engine. I bet this engine will out live you.
Happy to see this return to some "classic" Redline Rebuild content! The car fixes are fun, but this is what brought me to the channel...well, technically it was the Ford 289, but having the engine builds back has been great 🙂
I started with that big Buick straight eight.
I started with the flathead rebuild
@@davecaron1213that Buick was awesome. I would love to see him take on a 356 or 359 Packard.
I truly appreciate seeing what happens when you send a block to a machine shop. This seems to be the only channel on youtube that shows that. Keep up the great work. Look forward to seeing that pantera back on the road. 👍👍
Hopefully recommending another RUclips channel is ok. Check out @jamsionline for more great automotive machine shop content.
I love to watch machine work. Another good channel is @jamsionline - Jim's Automotive Machine Shop Inc. They do some really detailed and descriptive videos on a lot of different engines and machines.
Second recommendation for Jims
They sometimes do livestreams too, and will occasionally answer a good question from the viewers in real time
I show a lot of work that Ed Smith does as well
@@galencaudill6462 except many people add value to the car that has the matching engine, especially a exotic Pantera, like this is…
i took a machining class this semester and let me tell you it’s not an easy job at all but it’s so rewarding once you finish your part and everything is in tolerance
so your BLOCK IS A BOSS 351 Cleveland ! 4v = 500 hp is an easy squeeze . super power monster = nice thanks and keep up the good work !
I have an intact 351c in the shop corner never been taken apart, and another on the engine stand. I need to get back to work on these things.
Anyone else find this videos incredibly relaxing?
Just a little factoid, the Cleveland engines were machined as the first engine Ford manufactured on computer controlled equipment.
It won't affect anything to drill into the intake ports for threading. Just use sealer on the studs.
Seeing the slo mo of milling, drilling and tapping really shows up
what is going on in the normally unseen world of machining.
Well done Fellas!!
Give the Jims Automotive channel a look, if your interested in seeing MUCH more detailed walks through of this type of engine work. 👍
Yeah those old machines are romantic. I used to mill logs for homes with 110 year old machines. It’s really cool.
It's like watching a form of 3D ARTWORK - bringing this 'Crusty Ford V8' back to life so she can perform once again in all her glory in the 'canvas' which is the Pantera.
Fascinating process you’ve shown here. I find it interesting how much work goes into a rebuild, especially one that involves unraveling the ravages of time these engines suffer. It makes me wonder if some of these engines left the factory with deficiencies built right in. You mentioned that the oil passages were oversized which created the over oiling problem. That’s similar to the flathead engines with the oversized cooling passages that allowed too much coolant to flow, causing overheating issues due to the coolant moving through the system without being able to dissipate the heat. Thank you to all of the fine craftsmen involved in these videos, what you do is absolute magic.
I was a machinist many years ago, in fact I actually did the much of the machining on the Lunar Rover drive units. I really miss taking a chunk of raw metal and making a finished part out of it. And yes, it is a dark art.
All great Machine Shops, brings back good Ole memories, most younger people don't realize what it takes going thru all the fine detail work of a high class machine shop..nice work an filming an explaing everpart tks too all..guys
Great build! Restricting the lifter bores, or sleeving them for wear, in either case is a good time to check the block for core shift in the lifter gallery area. Some engines are prone to that and can affect lifter & cam wear, valvetrain geometry, etc. especially for a performance build. I don't believe the Cleveland is prone to that though. Will be following this series! I love the Pantera.
What's neat about the evolution of engines is how manufacturers acknowledged a lot of these oil starvation issues and slowly made it standard in their own production. This is why modern cars get more and more reliable.
I know it is too late, but to possibly help the next guy/gal, Cleveland’s are known for core shift when casting. It is best to sonically test the cylinders for thickness before boring. 30 over is generally max overbore without testing. Again generally. As a life long clevo guy, glad you are saving one.
Finally a real machinist that machines parts by hand. I'm tired of these kids who doesn't know how to turn a wrench or tap by hand. Most times when I see a video of a dumbest and his battery powered drill and impact gun I close the video because I know that they are a hack. The Cleveland was Fords attempt to manufacture a small block engine for Nascar.
It had no use for street ability. It's rpm range was 3000 - 7000 rpms.
So many of them blew up, and they wouldn't pass emissions, and that is why they only continued building them in Australia.
For nostalgia reasons you spent a reasonable amount of money to rebuild it.
Your time irrelevant because you used it to promote your business or make a video.
Good job!
Having worked in an old school engine shop in the early 80s my biggest buzz was giving motors that looked like they were gone a new lease of life. Marinised motors especially..................
TrickFlow makes a pushrod for 351C with a restricted oil passage that takes care of the upper cylinder over-oiling. No need for the lifter bore bushing. I have EXCELLENT oil pressure to the crank and rod bearings now. The other 'Must Do' on a 351C, to take care of the factory uneven cooling that causes overheating of the rear cylinders, is to insert a bronze freeze plug under the thermostat and drill a tiny 'air bleed' hole in the center of it. You then can use a 'standard' 160° thermostat instead of paying for the expensive 'Cleveland Only' thermostat. Car runs at 175° all day.
Thank you for giving as much technical details as possible! Helps to educate us all!
I'm thinking if you made the oil drain holes bigger in the lifter valley it would return the oil must quicker to the pan. I had a 302 block machined at our Ford Guru Machine shop in Charles City, VA and he open up the rear of the lifter valley,. He told me that this will drain the oil a lot quicker to the oi; pan. This was for a 331 Stroker I built for my 1995 Mustang GT.
I was not aware of the oiling issue you mentioned/corrected. Gotta be honest, the "pucker factor" reaming the block would be intense! Thanks for the full walk through - like others have written - this is becoming a lost art sadly. ~ Chuck
Interested to Know id your going to Glyptol all the internal surfaces of the block and heads for better oil drain back to the pan
With all small block Ford V8's, when possible i will drill out the oil drain holes in the heads. Then, when possible i will polish those holes. Sounds like overkill, but i haven't had any small block Ford engine fail yet. Only been doing this since 1984.
Thoroughly enjoyed this episode, the details of the "build" are great, and I have worked with the guys at Thirlby's myself on several builds, they are professional, quick and look out for your interest. Cheers!
What a lot of work... I'm impressed
Proper engine shop beautifully filmed and run through , love your narrative guys , thank you
I admire the work with lifter oil gallery's to reduce so much oil getting pumped up top... but most people I know increase the size of drain holes in middle of block to let extra oil drain back down ...fit a bigger volume sump with baffles and get on with life
Love this build and boy is this kid lucky to have a dad who is respected by all you guys cuz his engine is getting the top notch treatment
Good timing. Got my quote for $1,300 worth of boring, decking, honing and a bath yesterday from my "local" 80mi away machine shop lol
Caution on going over .030 on a Cleveland or modified as they were horrible for core shift. I have done them .030 and hit water. Have your block sonic checked. A common practice in my shop is to do all 8 in 1/8 wall sleeves.
I really love these long format videos full of information and especially this one with the technical machinery and how they work is really fascinating so thank you guys very much and keep them coming! Lee
Spent my senior year working on a friend’s Cleveland. Love that motor.
Yella terra in Australia sells race rockers for Cleveland that doesn't need guide plates.. they have lots of cool stuff for Clevelands..
The lifter bushings is a good update.
I love watching you guys build engines and the quality work you always do but really bushing the lifter bores is overkill unless you plan on 8k rpm sprints.A simpler way to restrict oil is to use pushrods with smaller holes and it actually works great.I've ran Clevelands my whole life and never really bought in to whole oil starvation thing.The oil system might have been backwards but Ive taken apart many 351c with over 200k miles and the crank journals always showed very little and even wear.On a street driven car I think these mods are not worth it as the engines oiling system however backwards it may be has always done its job on the engines I have dealt with.Also I would be extremely nervous about getting all those brass fragments out of the block!
Man, I only watch this channel because of Davin's classes! Thank you teacher! 👏👏👏👏
Questions:
-Instead of using slives could you line welding and after boring it back to spec?
-When you hammered down the oil bushings shouldn't you use some locking compound like Loctite 603?
Back in the day, the schools had metal and wood shop, as well as auto shop. I spent 35+ years as a manual machinist and it HAS become a "lost" art. Was pretty hard to find folks who could do the job, let alone stand most of the day...
I just recently sold all my old Cleveland stuff. 4-bolt blocks, closed chamber 4v heads, closed chamber Ausie heads too. All were already done with screw in studs, guide plates etc....
The extensive use of reamers is deeply satisfying. It's a woefully under-represented method to get perfectly sized and impeccably smooth holes.
Down here in the antipodes,we even used the 351 Cleveland with a 3" stroke and 6.03" inch rod..Even with the greatly reduced conrod loads and 188 to 240 horsepower, the 130 to 90 thou wall thickness Cleveland would split or get perforated bores. Ford Australia even had a lawsuit taken against them for sleeving Cleveland blocks from the factory as a way to reduce scraping the blocks with poor core shift. I'm glad your doing what the Australian factory did with the imported US Cleveland Engine Plant 2 tooling, sent to Australias Geelong line, after the short deck Cleveland engine run finished in mid 1974..
My uncle used to race in the mid 70s had the same problem with a high RPM SBC and he solved the problem by putting pipe cleaners into the push rods got to love old school ingenuity
Hey! Great build to watch, I was always interested in the Pantera, and seeing its engine down to bare block is fantastic. Just remember, when machining, use oil and not WD40 to lubricate the tool!! WD is more a detergent than a lubricant, it doesn't do good for the tool
So happy to see a channel doing a Cleveland and not another SBC or LS engine thanks guys so much more interesting
I noticed the gargantuan chambers, must be a 72 Pantera. I also hate bronze guide liners, mostly because I dont have the tooling for them. Also I notice they wear really bad. I use PEP manganese bronze false guides which hold up a bunch better.
I was wire brushing mine down to paint it. around #4 cyl freeze plug. I noticed what looked like about a 1/8"hole. found 2 just like it once paint was gone. It actually rusted out from the inside out and put 2 small holes in the side of the block. This motor is gonna be the one that I build that outlasts me. Its been blown up and worn out. Cleaned and put most of it all back together. Some stuff 10x too loose some too tight. It should be ready for a 500 shot fogger no issue lol. My $$$$ motor will let go on break in i bet.
So much improvement on this old lump. Oil distribution, roller setup, external balance, etc. This engine shouldn't need major work ever again given how lightly these cars are used now. I echo others sentiments about the disappearing full service machine shop. Gone are the days you could drop an engine off for work locally. It almost always involves shipping and a long nail-biting wait to get it back hoping the business doesn't end up in receivership with your numbers matching castings still in process.
Thanks....good stuff ..looking forward to seeing more.
Thanks for using a 351c that just happens to be what I am looking to do on this one iam building, my block was sitting for 40 yr in a humid environment, iam hoping cylinders will go 030 from being so rusty, I will be bushing lifter bores also, enough of my flapping gums, Thanks for this great video guys👍🏻💯💯💯
Never seen this hole process explain any better. Thank you
12:38 " et voilà ! ..." Greetings from France 😉
Love the Pantera since I was a kid in the 80's! This is so cool to see the original engine being rebuilt!
I really like the episodes at the machine shops. The machines are fascinating.
That's going to be a bad ass motor. Looking forward to seeing more of the process.
Absolutely great watching all of these craftsmen working on this engine. I hope this never becomes a lost art.
This is pretty cool to see. Im currently working in a factory machining aluminum valve bodies with the intent of taking what i learn there and one day having my own machine shop
Does this block have the Pantera engine number stamped on it?
Couldn't the potential oiling issues have been addressed with more restrictive pushrods?
That is a lot of work on those 4v (open chambered) cast iron heads. Why not buy aluminum ones, save a hundred pounds (and paint them blue if you want it to look stock).
You are correct on all accounts! Aluminum heads were considered. Secretly, we were hoping the heads were cracked so it would force our hand that way! However, we try as much as possible with many of our builds to maintain originality when we can. Ultimately, the owner of the car opted to keep the original heads.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge 🙏🏻 😊
This is so zen to watch, I'm truly envious of your skill and mastery to rebuild this great engine and bring her back to life.
What a pleassure this videos are to watch dude, Davin, the crew at the machine shop, john at Apex comp just all people doing the work we love to watch and the knoledge and passion the have for it to tho. Can't wait to see this engine im the pantera again but first... In the stand.. ready to roar to life again, healthy and better than ever was, thanks again for sharing all this things hagerty, hope it never ends❤ Keep up the work guys!
I wish I had known about doing this kind of work when I was younger. I loved machine shop in school and I like working on engines.
Absolutely beautiful to watch. Shop work needs to be higher on the curriculum worldwide.
Back when I was a machinist at Caterpillar Tractor I prefered cast iron over steel because when drilling and tapping steel if you hear one squeak its getting ready to seize in the hole. Grey iron because of the graphite in the metal is somewhat self lubricating and much easier on taps and drills.
Man, old Cat engines are some of the best engines I’ve even seen, my Dad has some heavy equipment from the 70’s and 80’s and those Cat diesels will run until the end of time. My brother also has a 1998 Kenworth W900 with a 3406 and that’s probably the best over the road diesel engine ever made.
I sure am glad you know what you are doing. Wow!
27:23 Woah, talk about a steady hand.
I love the detail spent, but is there any reason you didn't opt for a set of alloy cylinder heads, surely the cost of a pair of them with all the fruit, would flow better, have all the modern characteristics and featires designed into them, and also weigh a significant lot less, esp high up on the motor.
The motor still keeps original matching numbers too
I’ve always been a huge hagerty fan. Yet This video is single handedly the best produced. Direct to machinist education of a ‘disaster recovery’ motor I ever experienced.
On a Pantera no less. 👍
I just gotta quick questions. A) did you bore 30over on 7 cylinders. B)Then over bore the 8th to sleeve & match? C) and wasn’t line boring by hand a little risky without lathe etc. D) same for oil channel hone? By hand?
Looks like you're having fun David. Thanks for sharing with us.
I'm not sure about American Cleveland blocks but in Australia the 302 and 351 blocks were cast by ford australia and suffered core shift during casting so some bore were thin one side and thin on the other and with the oiling system, in the touring car series and during Bathurst at the time, they had to run production blocks and they suffered low oil pressure because all the ended up in the valley due to small drain holes and fix was to drill all the holes out so the would drain back to the sump
Absolutely loved this video. Almost therapeutic!! 😊 Keep up the awesome content!
Wonderful to watch professional machines and operators in action
I miss the good times I spent in engine rebuilding and repair shop class. RIP mr Edwards, the man was a legend, wrote books on the subject. John G Edwards, if u need some reading materials I highly recommend his methods
@4:35 I had a 'tipped deck' on a SBC 350 years ago. The machine shop did as much as they could. I still think we were .002 off front to back but it was a street motor and we weren't gonna race Grumpy so I wasnt worried about it. Took a lot of material off though and ended up having to use a .060 copper shim head gasket to get enough quench. Sold that Chevelle when I got divorced in 2009. I still see it running around sometimes.
I’m convinced 350 sbc’s will run until the end of time. My Dad bought a new 1995 GMC 1500 back in the day and it went from him, to my brother, to me, and then to my cousin, and back to me before I ended up selling it to a landscaper for cheap. It had 445,000 miles by the time I got rid of it and outside of using a quart of oil between changed it ran great. I have no doubt it’s running to this day. There’s definitely a good reason GMT400 trucks and SUV’s are so well regarded to this day.
Awesome project. These videos are truly enjoyable, very good shooting and editing. 🎬👍
I did the same work your engine machinist does. Saw many blocks twisted at the decks like this one. I always assumed they moved from heat and a lifetime of running in a street car. Some blocks were as much as about .010" twisted from side to side.......I used a Storm Vulcan 85B to mill blocks and heads and bored blocks with the same Kwik-Way your guy is using.....Did that for over 10 years....
A few years ago I brought an old 6 cylender back from the brink. I NEEDED three sleeves, the shop strongly suggested to do all six, this would bring the block back to original but for the decking that had already been done. At what point do you make the decision one sleeve or do them all. Is it just money ?
Definitely a case-by-case decision! Cost is certainly a big part of it. We have had engines in the past where once we get to over half the cylinders needing sleeves, we just do all of them. Parts availability is another part of it. Sometimes the engine has already been bored out and rebuilt once, and you can't go any bigger, so sleeves in every cylinder is the only option!
Awesome, learning a lot and gaining a lot of appreciation for this work.
It’s gratifying to see a guy like John working on those heads. Judging by some of the guys about that age that my two daughters drag home, who can’t even drive a straight shift, I’d about lost my faith in the current state of manhood in this country. But I guess my girls are looking in the wrong place, or not looking hard enough, because seeing a young guy like John, with his knowledge and skills, proves there’s still hope for manliness in America.
agree that we need to elevate the trades more, and appreciate the skills of the tradesmen. OTOH, its a big world out there and there's room for all kinds of people.
It seems that even reading a six-inch scale is too much. Let alone a dial indicator. It took an old guy to show me with a lot of wise cracks and patience. But I learned how to get it right and made my share of mistakes. I noticed that that old guy was sharper than he looked. The Guys and Gals out there Like John are truly reassuring that all isn't lost. Yup worked with some Gals that were handy on a Bridgeport or Cadillac turret lathe. They were no joke. You know I really enjoy this build. The 1st run up should be interesting.
Every time you see a beautiful clean classic running around, you got to thank these very hard working guys in these very gritty workshops!
When you ream with a handheld powertool you should rotate the block so the reamer is vertical.
The u-joint does certainly help, but with the tool at an angle it's pretty much impossible to not apply a side load and throw the bore off axis ever so slightly.
The weight of the reamer itself is enough to do that.
All that precision alignment at the machine shop and you hand ream the lifter bores? Amazingly not good.
@@bhaebe6671 Lifter bores don't really matter that much. Just gotta be a good fit, you can use a sand roller to clean up an old rusted bore and it'll be fine. Precision is needed in the cylinders where you have hundreds of PSi at combustion.
Actually this kind of reamers have a special shape, slight conic and self align pretty good. More accuracy there is overkill.
WD-40 is a poor cutting oil.
A reamer follows a hole.
I'm a Chevy guy, but I found this totally fascinating and very well done. Thanks!
The was super interesting, thank you guys for the education!
Really cant wait to hear it start up. Awesome work so far!
Love watching this whole process!!! thank you Guys!!!
Thank you for your knowledge...that should idle like it's not running..you and your machine shop are wicked good..
While you didn't show it, you did de-burred the holes in the phosphorous-bronze bushings right?
Being the owner of an MGA, I've replaced the rocker bushings on a few occasions as they've worn out. De-burring is a critical step.
Thought the same thing 👍
I rocked out one of thoses kwikway boring bars in my shop for a long time.
The amount of engineering that goes into a internal combustion engine is insane. You guys make it look easy in this video.
I think the machine shop visits are my favorite part of every rebuild!
This hands on engineering is great to watch
That block sure looks better now.....
40 over seems alot for a traditionally overheating car? Great video! I have never seen lifter bushings before.
We have addressed the car-specific overheating issues with cooling system upgrades!