Renly would absolutely not rebel against his trueborn nephew. The Lannister incest babies invited challenge; a true son of Robert only a handful of years younger than Renly does not, especially if his alliance with the Starks is secure. I think King Lyonel would publicly acknowledge his siblings as bastards and disinherit them, but not punish them for existing. Jaime would be dismissed from the Kingsguard and expelled from court, giving him a chance to make a legitimate Lannister heir. If there’s going to be a power struggle, it will be in the Westerlands between Joffrey and Jaime’s legitimate children after Tywin’s death. I also see no reason Ned couldn’t stay on as hand, especially with his daughter becoming Queen.
@@Meraxes0101 Honorable Ned Stark and half the realm wouldn't have backed usurper if King Aerys II didn't violate every part of his coronation oath and didn't become everything a king should not and cannot be.
@@user-ti5cw1ug6l Actually Renly didn't want to be King, he was talked into it by Loras. He stood against Stannis because he didn't believe Stannis would be a good King, and couldn't keep people united properly. That doesn't mean he would rebel against his nephew if he's legally King. He never rebelled against King Robert, so why against his son? Makes no sense.
Another interesting plot point: Ned’s attempts to portray Lyonel’s siblings as bastards could be seen as somewhat self serving, as Sansa’s children will have less threats to the throne
Correct me if I’m wrong: I think part of the reason that Cersei’s first child isn’t counted in Maggie’s prophecy is that the child didn’t live long enough to receive the GoT equivalent of a christening. In a lot of catholic backgrounds, it’s kind of considered your “soul birth” or something like that.
@@neil3202but she spoke with Robert about him, and assuming she birthed the child due to her describing his hair colour, if Cersei was lying robert would simply say “ you were never pregnant” or just call her out but he doesn’t which most likely means he saw her during the pregnancy and saw the baby after the birth
@claudiarey699 There's not any confirmation Robert named him, though. I can see his mother maybe naming the kid after Ned, the same way Cat was actually the one to name Robb, but Edric is also just a common name
@@CoRLex-jh5vx I feel like it was Probobly named by him because Robb Stark and Jon Snow are a reference to Robert Baratheon and Jon Aryn than Jon Aryn has a kid named Robin so it matches in my mind that Robert would name a kid Edric and fit the theme of the three of them naming kids after eachother
@CowboyMikeShow except Robb was named by Catelyn. Ned didn't meet him until he was a couple months old, and it's pretty much confirmed in the fact that he named Jon after Jon Arryn, because he already knew he had a kid named after Robert. We know he wasn't there to name him directly, and with how fast everything happened it seems unlikely there would be time for him to name Robb by letter, so logically speaking Cat is all but directly confirmed to have chosen the name.
I can see Lyonel learning of his half-siblings' bastardy leading to him writing a will for sucession in the event of his death without an heir. If the will has to be enacted, it'd reveal that the other children are bastards, but the mere existance would have the court gossiping about why Lyonel would have such a thing written up and they may draw conclusions. This could convince Ned to staying on as hand and it'd turn the other children into the same situation as the Strong Boys - everyone knows they're bastards but no one dares say it outloud. That could lead to Cersei retreating to Casterly Rock in an unofficial exile.
Ned and Lyonel would arrange to have Cersei and Jaime dismissed to the rock and maybe even summon Renly and/or Stannis to inform them they’d be next in line if anything happens before he can secure a line of succession. Ned would never abandon Robert’s kid after all he had been through in such a short time, let alone leave his daughter in a potentially dangerous situation without adequate protection. I like to think Tywin would be summoned to discuss the bastardry of Cersei’s kids so he could disinherit her line and have Jaime setup with a wife immediately. It’d be an extremely messy situation, Littlefinger and Varys would be scheming pretty heavily.
What fanciful nonsense. For any realm to be secured, all claimants must be eliminated. Why do you think Robert and Tywin killed the Targaryen children?
From History (which GRR Martin drew from heavily) with Joffrey being a spare not the crown prince his bad behavior would be more common knowledge and far more derided. Wills of succession where usually used to skip trouble making heirs and no one is going to question wanting to skip over someone like Joffrey. Unfortunately that causes a big problem in the long term. It a good plan on paper probably good enough to satisfy Ned but Will of succession almost never work for Royalty (just look at what happened to poor Lady Jane Grey) and this is Game of Thrones there no way Lyonel would live long term. The moment something happens to Lyonel the Lanisters are going to act to suppress the Will and Ned acting to enforce it. Almost certainly Ned would suffer the same fate as before just latter in the timeline. And now anyone with even a little blood claim is going to be able to argue a believe that they are the heir of the suppressed Will.
@@georgeprchal3924 So does every Royal Will of Succession. If they where following the any existing act of Succession there would be no need of a Will of Succession in the first place. The whole point of one is to supersede the established rules.
I would say that while Lyonel would share some similarities with Robert he would also take some traits from Stannis. I believe this would be the case because while he's Robert's kid he wouldn't be that close to his father because of Robert's complete adversity for any kind of responsibility, so Lyonel would seek out another father figure to learn from. Jamie may be there but at best would just be a fun uncle that teaches him to have fun or at worst hate Lyonel since he is Robert's kid. So Lyonel would drift close to Stannis to learn how to be a good leader and would probably end up being a good balance between his father and uncle. All the sense of responsibility and competence from Stannis and all the charisma and strength from Robert.
What if Robert & Cersei has a son together? A classic what if prompt , there’s plenty of fanfics with this idea as it’s interesting and capable of changing the story dramatically. There’s lots of ways how this son of Robert & Cersei would’ve been like, my favourite being *Daveth Baratheon (Trials and Tribulations of the Oathkeeper)* that’s on AO3. Seeing the interaction between Robb and Tywin in war meeting since Renly still rebelled against the Crown, so this what if is a classic for sure. Goddamnit, 23:00 I’m tired of this misconception, Jorah Mormont was distracted by Barristan Selmy, so if he wasn’t there then Jorah would’ve saved Daenerys Targaryen if Jorah wasn’t distracted.
i like using gendry as the stand-in for lyonel! the first time i watched the show (still haven't read the books), i thought "so their first son *didn't* die, he was just taken away and raised as a bastard for some reason??"
Cersei couldn’t bring herself to murder her own child, and so had another stolen and smothered. Gendry’s dropped at a brothel and forgotten about. Something like that could work. If nothing else, she was crazy about her kids.
Considering in the books four out of five of Ned's kids took after their mother, and in the show Sansa looks more like Catelyn than Ned, had there been a single legitimate child he probably wouldn't have questioned anything. Much like what Tyrion thought in the books. Book Cersei also wouldn't have any reason to go after Robert's bastards if she had a legitimate child for the same reasons.
My personal theory on the valonqar is that it’s Tommen, the one younger brother no one would see coming. Her baby, her boy, the younger brother to the monster Cersie created
Another thing to note: Lyonel is not only an excellent name for the reasons you mentioned, but also because it sounds akin to Lyanna. Whether Robert would have thst intention over the name, I'm curious if Cersei would take it as a slight regardless. It's possible she doesn't acknowledge it-a lot of characters have names with similar phonemes in Westeros-but if she takes it that way, it sets up a very bitter relationship between mother and son. And none of this even mentions what sort of relationship Joffrey would have with Lyonel. Does Lyonel chastise or excuse Joffrey's actions? Does Joffrey develop differently with a big brother in his life? Does Cersei's scorn for Lyonel and doting on Joffrey cause tension? Lots of character avenues to explore.
@@kittenallieare you sure? The whole point of Gendry in the books or at least in a game of thrones is to prove that Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella look nothing a like to Robert and more look like Jaime and Cersei. That’s why Ned is described to be shocked in his pov chapter and even in the show because this revelation could potentially lead to a war of succession (which it obviously does). So no to even insinuate that it was hinted it at would be a foolish thing to say.
John Arryns last words “the seed is strong” was 1:15 his attempt at leaving a clue about the so called Baratheon children’s lineage. Wouldn’t “joffs a bastard” have been a better clue? Or “Jaime pumps cersei”? Or “Jaime’s joffs father” or a million other possibilities? Just sayin.
I personally think Gendry is the trueborn son of both Cersei and Robert from the show. Gendry did say he remembers his mother had blonde hair then disappeared
What if Viserys only have daughters with Alicent? What if Lucerys lost his eye *instead* of Aemond? What if both Lucerys & Aemond died in episode 10? What if Viserys had Aegon II married Rhaenyra *After* Laenor’s death? What if Rhaenyra was like Jaehaerys The Conciliator? What if Rhaenyra Targaryen married Borros Baratheon? What if Viserys-I made Rhaenys Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death? What if Viserys-I made Daemon Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death? What if Rhaenyra married Otto after Alicent married Viserys? What if Aegon-III lived longer and made his Daughter Daena hair after the death of his sons? What if Myrcella “Baratheon” married Robb Stark instead Joffrey & Sansa? What if Jamie Lannister was at the Tower Of Joy instead of Gerold Hightower?
Assuming Rhaenyra chose Otto, her marrying him would make Allicent hate her so much more. I mean, Allicent had no choice in marrying Viserys but Rhaenyra had the freedom to choose her husband and she just decided to marry her best friend's dad to get back at her. I think Otto would have been surprised but went along with it. I mean, house hightower has more political influence and like house Velaryon, is now a dragon rider house to boot. Regardless who gives birth first, Otto has a dragonrider kin on the throne for him to influence.
1: Then Rhaenyra takes the throne unopposed. With no male heirs no one is gonna choose to back Alicent and her brood over the eldest daughter. 2: Again, little happens. Aemond was a big deal because he had Vhagar. If Lucerys loses his eyes, Aemond stays more sane and has no grudge with a giant dragon, and Lucerys does. The overall Dance would change, but frankly it would likely end the same way. 3: Then Rhaenyra wins the Dance. Vhagar and Aemond are the Hightowers biggest weapon. No Vhagar this early means Rhaenys doesn't die and she makes sure Aegon is dead. Completely outnumbered and outgunned Rhaenyra swiftly takes the capital and executes her traitors. 4: No war if Aegon marries Rhaenyra. 5: If Rhaenyra was like Jae (A great warrior, politician, innovator, and leader) she may avoid the war entirely and help her house and the realm progress even further
If Aegon III lived longer, Daeron I wouldn't start the war in Dorne and wouldn't die young. What I don't understand is why they married Daena to Baelor when they had Daeron?
I thought about this some while ago. I like the image of Lyonel as someone like Teddy Roosevelt-born sick, but refusing to succumb or be frail. A character who seeks adventures and obstacles and challenges, within and without, to overcome them. Whether his early sickness would leave him stunted or he powers through it and takes his father's height (at least in the books Robert is 6'6". Mark Addy, the actor, is about 6' even), that could potentially change the trajectory of how he sees strength and might. And this is ignoring whether or not he inherits his grandfather's cunning. Would he be as able a statesman as Tywin, if less brutal? Or only so involved in such affairs as his father-more concerned with feasts and tourneys and glory and challenges? All interesting directions, to not even mention the elements you touched on in this video.
I had read somewhere that in Westeros, children are not counted as part of the official count until they survive their first year, that's why Baby #1 is not part of Maggie's prophecy
A huge conflict I can see happen is the starks and the Tyrell’s having a conflict. I can’t see Renley turning against his actual nephew. But I can see him reaching for power for both him and his friends. Renley had been trying to get Robert to Mary Margery for a while, I can see him pouncing on Lynal trying to get him to set Sansa aside to put the Tyrell’s in power.
Or Cersei lied to Catelyn. She wasn't known for her sincerity. Her purpose in the room was to see if Bran was going to survive or not and if he would reveal Her and Jamie's secret. So she made up a yarn to show fake empathy to Catelyn to disguise her true purpose.
I don't think Cersei told a complete lie. "She's always been good at using the truth to tell lies." She could have killed the baby (the baby has to exist because Robert talks about it), but I really don't think she did. I think it was expected of a queen to visit a grieving Catelyn (plus the reasons you mentioned), and she's using that to come off sympathetic towards Bran.
That's a good one, I love this. There's so much potential there, would the Daynes or the Hightowers raise the boy as one of their own? Would he ever know his true ancestry? Would they send him to Dany so she can help hide him? (Viserys is a psycho so probably not!). Would the Daynes or Hightowers want him to take the Iron Throne one day? Given the Hightowers' actions in HotD, it is possible they will see this as a way to improve their own power long term and technically he is a Hightower descendant....
@@DavidCarradinesBelt Like D&D, I forgot about the existence of someone lol In this case it was Queen Aemma (RIP). Thanks for reminding me to look again, Aemma is the ancestor not Alicent ;-)
The child would've quite likely have been named "Eddard" since Ned named his first son Robb after Robert. And Robert loved Ned like a brother and obviously loved Lyanna so a northern name would've made sense.
I believe that Robert and Cersei did have a son. Cersei abandoned it to get back at Robert for cheating on her. She vowed to never get pregnant by Robert again.
An interesting question would be "What would have happened if Joffery was fostered by Ned in Winterfell?". Keep all the parentage the same, just put Joff under Neds tutelage at the age of 7 (like it would have happened historically). Ned and Roberts parents were still alive when they were "fostered" in the Erie with Jon Aryan. Why would Roberts oldest son not be squired and taught under his best friend? I think it would have made Joff a completely different person and would definitely make what happens a hundred times more interesting.
6:52 that freaking song is the best thing to ever come out of Season 8. I know that bar is very low, but that song rocks! I still listen to the full version of that song by Florence & The Machine.
GoT -What if Robb didn't break his betrothal with Jeyne, but later with Margaery after Renly's death? Assuming someone else saw the shadow and vouched for Brienne so they didn't have to flee. -What if Jon chose not take the Black and left the wall? (Free cities, rest of Westeros, Beyond the wall) HOTD -What if Lucerys survived his flight from Aemond? -What if Aemond survived the battle of the God's Eye and returned to KL with Alys and his son? (With or Without Vhaegar)
I think Robb would’ve become king, easily. The Lannisters die during Blackwater, Stannis becomes king very briefly, Freys/Boltons have no incentive to betray Robb. Walder may request some heavy compensation. It’s hard to say what’d happen with Sansa, since she’d be a PoW now. Stannis may have her imprisoned, sacrificed at Melisandre’s behest, or just set her free out of his sense of honour and respect for Ned.
I feel like we would worry about Joffery more, cuz I just know he's be bitter about Lyonel getting not just a lot of Cersei's attention but all of Robert's. I mean, unless Tywin arranges an 'unfortunate accident' for the problem child or has him join the army to discipline him while giving him a different outlet for his violent tendencies, Joffery might get Lyonel killed
I honestly saw Cersei's story about her son with Robert dying from a fever as a lie spun to try and seem more sympathetic to Catelyn's plight. And regarding the laughing storm. I recall another of Robert's nicknames was "The laughing storm reborn" or something like that. To your point about Cersei loving her children. Not quite. She basically loves them as narcissistic extensions of herself. That's why she doted on Joffrey in canon. He was the crown prince and he could allow Cersei the ultimate power. While I cannot say that Lyonel could be like Robert or more like Cersei. I like to believe that if Lyonel prefers to be his own person and stand by his decisions and not bend to the whims of his mom. Then Cersei may grow to despise her eldest son.
The fourth son If they are trueborn still fits the prophecy I think. As it describes their children as Robert's or Cersei's specifically. A trueborn child would not be to either but both. Prophecy can be interpreted to only refer to the bastard children they would have given it's wording IMHO.
Why would Cersei give up a legit heir who would secure her power and the Lannister’s influence at court. Even if she hated Robert, Cersei wouldn’t invite questions of incest if she truly had a child with him. Even if the rest are all by Jaime, providing a legit heir keeps her, Joff, Tom, and M secure as no one would care unless that heir were to die in his teens making Joff of questionable parentage the next in line. Cersei is a lot of things but she isn’t that dumb to get rid of a legit product of the one job she had to do.
@@martidodger7106 “A dozen years,” Ned said. “How is it that you have had no children by the king?” She lifted her head, defiant. “Your Robert got me with child once,” she said, her voice thick with contempt. “My brother found a woman to cleanse me. He never knew, If truth be told, I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years.
@@JohnDoe-vw4zf It's almost ironic how if she hadn't done that, Maggie the Frog's prophecy may never have come true. Because the child definitely would not be born with a "golden crown." Alternatively, it might've changed the meaning of the prophecy to mean golden crown as in actual crown vice hair. Which would suggest ALL her children sit upon the Iron Throne at some point before dying.
I'm not sure if Lyonel would be nice, because Joffrey wasn't born evil, but raised. Maybe Cersei would raise her first son the same as Joffrey making him arrogant and cruel just like Joffrey
theoretically geoffry could be sent to casterly rock as hed be next in line after tyrion, there would be enough positions to send out the 3 rather than keep them at court while strengthening relations, getting them away from the rumour mill
2:50 I believe that the profecy says she will have 3 children and that "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds". That would mean that they would have blond hair, wich her first child would not have because "the seed is strong" and he probably had dark hair from his father Robert. So maybe the prophecy aplies only to her children with Jaime.
Speaking on the show only: I envision Gendry having been Cersei and Roberts child but maybe Cersei didn't want his child and had him ordered dead, and maybe Jamie instead of killing him just gave him up as a common bastard of Robert's. Or she wanted to keep him but Jamie had him taken away and told her he was dead out of jealousy and proceeded to impregnate her. All the visits and questions to Gendry weren't only that people wanted to make sure he was safe/ or kill him because he was Robert's kid but maybe because they wanted to confirm who his mother was. The secret was slowly getting out about the illegitimate heirs as rumors and stories started to connect. That's what I think. 😊
I think a bigger plot whole is that how would catelyn not know the king and queen were expecting a child, given birth and the baby died? They would send out ravens and ok let’s say they only sent to a couple houses, stark would be one of them. The realm would know
13:30 Why do you say that Petry Balish put up the Stark vs Lannister rivialry. Balish didn't only say he lost the dagger to the imp. No think of what Cerise think of her younger brother and that she have seen Tyrion owning that dagger. Blaming Tyrion is something Cerise does quite a lot.
Interesting point you didn't mention: how would Jeoffrey do growing up not being the heir? Would he accept it and maybe be less of a shitty person (not as arrogant due to his position), or would he turn out even worse?
Didn’t Cersie mention to Katelyn Stark that she and Robert had a stillborn son when she visits them in Branns room after Jamy had thrown him from the tower? (In the HBO serie at least). She said he had black hair, with probably means he was in fact Roberts since Jamy and her children were all blond yet Roberts children all had black hair
I believe that Gendry may actually be Cersei and Roberts true born child. He talks of his mother who had golden hair. Is it possible that the one child born to her with black hair didn't die and the maester's saved him and installed him in the pleasure house to ensure Cersei never knew?
Interesting scenario what if question. If Robert had a legitimized son ( a bastard he legitimized as a lord) before he became king by combat and then he marries Cersei and the other children are his “half siblings” what are the chances that son would’ve been allowed to survive to adulthood ? Would his uncles back him or want rid of him?
I think Lyonel booting Jaime from the King's Guard would change things drastically and probably win him favor with Tywin. I think Lyonel would respect Tywin as a warrior as well, making for a strong contender for being Hand still. Jaime being heir to the Rock definitely makes things easier for Tywin to focus on making a King of Lyonel who would likely listen to Tywin.
I just figured that Cersei was lying about the child and was inserting herself into the issue. Plus if there were incest rumor swirling it would be best to plant the idea that Cersei actually bore a son for Robert It would be odd that Cersei and Robert would have had a child who died and it wasn’t recorded by the maesters/ned wouldn’t have known before hand. It sounds like the baby lived a bit before the fever took him so likely an announcement would have gone out at the time of birth/the bells would have rung for his birth, so KL would have been aware that a child was born ahead of Joeffry
If you want to do another one of these scenarios you could try doing “what if Ned and Ashara’s baby survived”. Canonically, ashara Dayne had a miscarriage that was likely Ned’s (or his brother Brandon’s) child, and if this child survives Ned would be honor bound to take care of it after ashara commits suicide following the news of her brothers death. That means Jon is likely written off as this baby’s twin brother and both are deemed as Ned and asharas illegitimate children by the rest of Westeros. This gives Jon an outlet to grow up with since he’s no longer the only bastard in winterfell and now has a brother who can relate to him and share his concerns and dreams with. This brother is also the nephew of Arthur dayne, so if the Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree he’s likely an incredible fighter from an early age which would further challenge Jon, who in the books is much less of a fighter and more of a cunning planner. The result is that ned now has to raise an actual bastard who’s ambition to follow in the steps of his uncle would land him in trouble overtime as he likely would follow Ned south as part of his household guard. He may fight Joffrey on the kings road to protect Arya, he may participate in the kings landing tournament, and he may even fight Jamie to protect Ned (Jamie would probably have an interest in his idols nephew as well). However, I’m not one for writing a fanfic at the moment and I just think the scenario is worth pondering since another actual snow could drastically change the course of the story.
I would like to think Lyonel would be eager to combat and every often hurting training partner because he still doesn’t know how to control his strength. Great was for the butcher still have the same fate but more of an accident.
Even if John Arryn bothers to out the Lannisters (which he might not even bother to do), the stakes are much lower. He might even just get Cersei to confess behind closed doors and they either divorce or they all just agree to sweep it under the rug since there’s a legitimate heir. I can’t see Robert beheading Cersei and her children over it when he’s got a son to succeed him. There wouldn’t be a war of five kings.
I could see Lyonel sending Joferry Tonmen and Marcella back to be Tywin's direct problem though. That would go some distance to quiet some of the claims and since Joffery wont be heir/king, there is no need to let him be a psycho in the capital
I wonder with Lyonel being older if Renly & Loras would try to get him and Margery together, a sorta nod to the book idea of them hoping Robert marrying her. Yes he wanted Ned and his family together but was it about having Sansa be Queen, just as long as a match happened.
I think Lionel could help Robert try and become a better king and husband if they had a heart to heart. Lionel being Robert's son could be just as stubborn and most likely knows how stubborn Robert is
I think something your missing is Lyonels sickness that he canonically died from. If he survives then he grows up in a weakened body that prevents him from being completely like Robert and probably forces him to rely on his wits and intelligence more than his brawn. That probably makes him insecure with himself since the martial culture of Westeros values strong men who can fight and Robert would especially be hard to please if Lyonel can’t participate in tournaments or even fight. Jon Arryn probably does the majority of the work raising him along with pycelle who follows him around to prevent him from falling sick again and likely dying (on Cerseis orders of course). This would probably make Lyonel a stubborn, insecure, and diligent young man who wants to desperately please his father and outgrow his mothers coddling and helicoptering.
I think Melisandre would be more interested in Lyonel and Sansa's children. The kids with the song of ice (Stark) and Fire (Baratheon through their Targaryen lineage). Especially if they end up with three....
Only 7 true Targaryens were alive during Roberts rebellion and with them all dead. Robert would be the closest claimant being great grandchild of Rhaelle, the aunt of Aerys the Mad
If anyone loves this concept, I strongly recommend the fanfic Trials and Tribulations of the Oathkeeper by DeadlyMaestrom711. The boy is named Daveth, and it’s overall very well-written.
If Lyonel is a trueborn Baratheon. Then why not send Joffey to Casterly Rock to be adopted as a Lannister. Tywin gets a heir, Jaime can hover around Cersei without Twywin needling them. Send Tommen to Old Town to train as a Maester, marry Marcella to someone advantageous to the Baratheons. Edd wouldn't have to agonize over "Truth and Honor"
I'm also gonna agree that Eddard would be the better name, and I think he'd be way different from Joffery because as soon as Cersei starts popping out blonde-haired incest babies Eddard would be sent away to be fostered by Stannis as the Prince of Dragonstone(if for nothing else than to get a constant reminder of their differences out of sight to protect her other children), which could lead to Ned doing the same with Jon, in a bit of irony. Stannis would get "sons" to raise. Stannis and Davos would pass on their best qualities to go along with the inherited natural charisma of Robert and some likely teaching from his Grandfather Tywin to make him SUPER Formidable. Jon would likely become close with Davos, but also best friends with Eddard setting up for even More drama with Jon's true parentage. Melisandre would also take an interest in Jon, with him having legitimate potential to fulfill her prophecy by finding some eggs and "awakening a Dragon" from beneath Dragon Stone.
It may be a slight technicality but there’s possibly a difference between a child and a baby? I mean, if it was said how many would she birth could change it somewhat
make a what if Aegon V didn't die in The Tragedy of summerhall, and had managed to hatch dragon eggs, let's say 3 dragon eggs to make it interesting, how would that change history from that point o,n with no one dying in summerhall and dragons returning to the world?
Why wouldn't lionel have figured out the incest already? he's been around the babies all his life. If ned told him about it, i expect his reaction would be "yeah i knew years ago"
I wonder if this is even possible in a "what if" scenario, because it would require changing Cersei's character to begin with. Because... I kind of think she killed "Lionel." And by "kind of think," I mean she definitely did. And even if she didn't, and he actually died of natural causes... if he hadn't died of natural causes, she would have killed him. She wanted a pure Lannister on the throne... somebody who was hers and Jaime's and not Robert's. Edit: I'm basing this primarily on what she said to Ned during that meeting where Ned tried to warn her. Can't recall if she goes into this in the show, but in the books, she specifically said that she only wanted Jaime's children, and went out of her way to keep Robert from being able to conceive any children with her. Edit #2: If we take your premise that Lionel is not killed, I agree Ned would tell him the truth after he ascends the throne. He probably wouldn't give Cersei the same heads-up, because the reason he gave Cersei that heads-up in canon was specifically because he knew Robert was not above wanting Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen killed for not being his, and Ned needed to prevent that. Without that factor, he probably wouldn't have given Cersei any heads-up. Once Lionel knows the truth, though, I think Ned would be satisfied, regardless of what Lionel chooses to do with it. I think Ned's problem with the three kids was that they were a lie, and he had to tell his friend the truth, and then the problem was that Ned suspected that the same woman who told that lie had then _killed_ his friend, for the purpose of ensuring her child's seat on the throne. Ned doesn't actually have any bad feelings towards the children; quite the contrary... the whole reason he gave Cersei a heads-up was to _protect_ her children. He'd see it as his duty to inform Lionel of the truth, but unless Lionel follows in his father's footsteps and orders his three half-siblings _killed,_ I don't think Ned would have any problem with anything Lionel chooses to do. What Lionel would do does raise an interesting question. He could very well simply legitimize his three half-siblings. But if he legitimizes Joffrey, that would incentivise Joffrey to kill him and take the throne. But if he legitimizes Myrcella and Tommen, but _not_ Joffrey (because canon Joffrey was a terror to his siblings, and I see no reason why that would change... if anything, seeing his older brother be doted on by Robert would probably make Joffrey worse), that could lead to any number of political and family issues. I think Ned (who would not leave) would advise him _not_ to legitimize any of his half-siblings (otherwise there could be a Blackfyre-type situation), but send them to be wards in other places, away from Cersei. Which would lead to an interesting issue with Cersei.
Cersei told Ned that she had managed to avoid being impregnated by Robert except for one accident. She used an herbal preparation to induce a miscarriage.
I’ve actually been playing with an idea like this. Mine would also be named Lyonel, but he is the younger twin to Joffrey. How is this possible? Well, there is a very rare medical phenomenon in which a woman conceives by two different men if the “acts” occur practically on top of each other. This results in fraternal twins and is called superfecundation. I am ironing details out still, but there will be a war between the brothers, and Lyonel will marry Sansa.
Ned wouldn’t abandon Robert’s son like that, no way. Especially with Sansa still there and the attempt on Bran’s life, he’d stay if only for Sansa’s protection. They’d probably arrange a deal to have Jaime, Cersei and the bastards dismissed to Casterly Rock to remove them from public eye and politicking in exchange to stay as hand. Also where’s Tywin? I imagine he’d have a few things to say if Lyonel found out about Cersei’s adultery had her and Jaime and the kids sent back. It’s hard to say how he’d react. I like to think he’d immediately arrange to have Jaime find a suitable heir and disinherit Cersei’s line. Or if Ned does end up leaving, he’d probably join Lyonel as hand.
Even if Renly attempted to go at the throne, there's no way Lyonels house would side against him. He's a Baratheon, even if some were loyal to Renly, majority eoukd side with their rightful king. And plus, I doubt the Tyrells would even side with Renly either. They only did so because of Robert's death and Joffrey being king. Lyonel being the legitimate king would have waaaaaay to many houses on his side. The Lannisters, all of the Riverlands, the North and Vale. Its way too many houses against what, two at most?
Jaime Lannister is a: Kingslayer Guestright Breaker Two of the worst crimes. Yet he did it out of: Honour Love If he became a Kinslayer by killing Cercei he would have committed the 3 worst crimes. Yet each for a good reason.
i think this timeline is peacefull in some part whit Lyonel and sanas being together and having children the starks and lannister being more controled, and if everything goes right we could se a stable kingdoom but after lyonel death i think there could be a war between again the starks and lannisters but who knows, about the hand of the king ned and stannis are the most obvious options i dont think in this scenario theres chance of twin being the hand of the king
I want to play what if for the books. What if Theon stayed loyal to Robb Stark. What If Robb Stark did declare for Stannis What if Stannis won the Battle of Blackwater Bay What if Lyanna Stark lived What if Tyrion learned the truth about Tysha when he was still hand in A Clash of Kings What if Jon was not betrayed by Bowen Marsh and the other mutineers What if Loras Tyrell was not badly wounded in the Siege of Dragonstone What If Robb learned of the Red Wedding before hand and Roose Bolton's involvement What if Robb married Roslin Frey right after Whispering Wood and kept Theon around and sent mama back to Winterfell and never executed Rickard Karstark. Basically if Robb never made dumb decisions.
Marriage would be pointless without consummation (sex). Sansa would still need to get her first period for a child to be possible. You cant make that come faster im afraid.
I can actually see Ned accepting Lyonel's decision and staying as hand. Keeping the secret. It's not like he's stranger to doing that
We all know Ned can keep a secret
Plus Tywin would still be in play with a grandson with Lannister blood in him.
Tywin can be won over by removing his heir from the Kings Guard. Way better than Joffrey ousting Barristsn anyway and it seperates the twins.
Renly would absolutely not rebel against his trueborn nephew. The Lannister incest babies invited challenge; a true son of Robert only a handful of years younger than Renly does not, especially if his alliance with the Starks is secure.
I think King Lyonel would publicly acknowledge his siblings as bastards and disinherit them, but not punish them for existing. Jaime would be dismissed from the Kingsguard and expelled from court, giving him a chance to make a legitimate Lannister heir. If there’s going to be a power struggle, it will be in the Westerlands between Joffrey and Jaime’s legitimate children after Tywin’s death.
I also see no reason Ned couldn’t stay on as hand, especially with his daughter becoming Queen.
Renly rebelled against his brother though. In the end he was the most envious of Robert and wanted to be hailed like he was.
Jamie violated his kings guard oath he would be sent to the wall or death.
@@Meraxes0101 Honorable Ned Stark and half the realm wouldn't have backed usurper if King Aerys II didn't violate every part of his coronation oath and didn't become everything a king should not and cannot be.
@@user-ti5cw1ug6l Actually Renly didn't want to be King, he was talked into it by Loras. He stood against Stannis because he didn't believe Stannis would be a good King, and couldn't keep people united properly. That doesn't mean he would rebel against his nephew if he's legally King. He never rebelled against King Robert, so why against his son? Makes no sense.
Renly though he could take Stannis, Stannis showed him why he was the only true King.
Joffrey not beeing first in line for the throne could strongly impact his development for the better : . .
Another interesting plot point: Ned’s attempts to portray Lyonel’s siblings as bastards could be seen as somewhat self serving, as Sansa’s children will have less threats to the throne
Correct me if I’m wrong: I think part of the reason that Cersei’s first child isn’t counted in Maggie’s prophecy is that the child didn’t live long enough to receive the GoT equivalent of a christening. In a lot of catholic backgrounds, it’s kind of considered your “soul birth” or something like that.
That’s a valid thought.
Instead of birthdays, they have namedays. So that is very possible.
That or Cersi was simply lying.
@@neil3202but she spoke with Robert about him, and assuming she birthed the child due to her describing his hair colour, if Cersei was lying robert would simply say “ you were never pregnant” or just call her out but he doesn’t which most likely means he saw her during the pregnancy and saw the baby after the birth
⁰o@@kalifogg6610
I would've called him Eddard Baratheon as a reference to how Neds heir is named after Robert Baratheon
In the books Bobby B. named one of his bastards Edric. He is his only reconigesed bastard son too. I am almost sure he's named after Ned.
@claudiarey699 There's not any confirmation Robert named him, though. I can see his mother maybe naming the kid after Ned, the same way Cat was actually the one to name Robb, but Edric is also just a common name
@@CoRLex-jh5vx I feel like it was Probobly named by him because Robb Stark and Jon Snow are a reference to Robert Baratheon and Jon Aryn than Jon Aryn has a kid named Robin so it matches in my mind that Robert would name a kid Edric and fit the theme of the three of them naming kids after eachother
@CowboyMikeShow except Robb was named by Catelyn. Ned didn't meet him until he was a couple months old, and it's pretty much confirmed in the fact that he named Jon after Jon Arryn, because he already knew he had a kid named after Robert. We know he wasn't there to name him directly, and with how fast everything happened it seems unlikely there would be time for him to name Robb by letter, so logically speaking Cat is all but directly confirmed to have chosen the name.
@@CoRLex-jh5vxthey had to fuck to make Robb right? Cat : Hey honey if I get pregnant from this, what do you want to name your firstborn son? Ned: Robb
I can see Lyonel learning of his half-siblings' bastardy leading to him writing a will for sucession in the event of his death without an heir. If the will has to be enacted, it'd reveal that the other children are bastards, but the mere existance would have the court gossiping about why Lyonel would have such a thing written up and they may draw conclusions. This could convince Ned to staying on as hand and it'd turn the other children into the same situation as the Strong Boys - everyone knows they're bastards but no one dares say it outloud. That could lead to Cersei retreating to Casterly Rock in an unofficial exile.
Ned and Lyonel would arrange to have Cersei and Jaime dismissed to the rock and maybe even summon Renly and/or Stannis to inform them they’d be next in line if anything happens before he can secure a line of succession. Ned would never abandon Robert’s kid after all he had been through in such a short time, let alone leave his daughter in a potentially dangerous situation without adequate protection. I like to think Tywin would be summoned to discuss the bastardry of Cersei’s kids so he could disinherit her line and have Jaime setup with a wife immediately. It’d be an extremely messy situation, Littlefinger and Varys would be scheming pretty heavily.
What fanciful nonsense. For any realm to be secured, all claimants must be eliminated. Why do you think Robert and Tywin killed the Targaryen children?
From History (which GRR Martin drew from heavily) with Joffrey being a spare not the crown prince his bad behavior would be more common knowledge and far more derided.
Wills of succession where usually used to skip trouble making heirs and no one is going to question wanting to skip over someone like Joffrey.
Unfortunately that causes a big problem in the long term.
It a good plan on paper probably good enough to satisfy Ned but Will of succession almost never work for Royalty (just look at what happened to poor Lady Jane Grey) and this is Game of Thrones there no way Lyonel would live long term.
The moment something happens to Lyonel the Lanisters are going to act to suppress the Will and Ned acting to enforce it. Almost certainly Ned would suffer the same fate as before just latter in the timeline. And now anyone with even a little blood claim is going to be able to argue a believe that they are the heir of the suppressed Will.
@@sfsin3380 the difference with Jane Grey is that Edward tried to circumvent an act of Parliament, the Act of Succession.
@@georgeprchal3924 So does every Royal Will of Succession. If they where following the any existing act of Succession there would be no need of a Will of Succession in the first place. The whole point of one is to supersede the established rules.
I would say that while Lyonel would share some similarities with Robert he would also take some traits from Stannis. I believe this would be the case because while he's Robert's kid he wouldn't be that close to his father because of Robert's complete adversity for any kind of responsibility, so Lyonel would seek out another father figure to learn from. Jamie may be there but at best would just be a fun uncle that teaches him to have fun or at worst hate Lyonel since he is Robert's kid. So Lyonel would drift close to Stannis to learn how to be a good leader and would probably end up being a good balance between his father and uncle. All the sense of responsibility and competence from Stannis and all the charisma and strength from Robert.
I think he’d probably take after Jon Arryn more than anyone.
What if Robert & Cersei has a son together? A classic what if prompt , there’s plenty of fanfics with this idea as it’s interesting and capable of changing the story dramatically.
There’s lots of ways how this son of Robert & Cersei would’ve been like, my favourite being *Daveth Baratheon (Trials and Tribulations of the Oathkeeper)* that’s on AO3.
Seeing the interaction between Robb and Tywin in war meeting since Renly still rebelled against the Crown, so this what if is a classic for sure.
Goddamnit, 23:00 I’m tired of this misconception, Jorah Mormont was distracted by Barristan Selmy, so if he wasn’t there then Jorah would’ve saved Daenerys Targaryen if Jorah wasn’t distracted.
i like using gendry as the stand-in for lyonel!
the first time i watched the show (still haven't read the books), i thought "so their first son *didn't* die, he was just taken away and raised as a bastard for some reason??"
Cersei couldn’t bring herself to murder her own child, and so had another stolen and smothered. Gendry’s dropped at a brothel and forgotten about.
Something like that could work. If nothing else, she was crazy about her kids.
24:28 "Loras put that battery in his back" 😭😭😭😭You wild for that one lol
I HAVE WAITED FOR THIS EXACT WHAT IF FOR YEARS!!!!!!!
Considering in the books four out of five of Ned's kids took after their mother, and in the show Sansa looks more like Catelyn than Ned, had there been a single legitimate child he probably wouldn't have questioned anything. Much like what Tyrion thought in the books. Book Cersei also wouldn't have any reason to go after Robert's bastards if she had a legitimate child for the same reasons.
My personal theory on the valonqar is that it’s Tommen, the one younger brother no one would see coming. Her baby, her boy, the younger brother to the monster Cersie created
Another thing to note: Lyonel is not only an excellent name for the reasons you mentioned, but also because it sounds akin to Lyanna.
Whether Robert would have thst intention over the name, I'm curious if Cersei would take it as a slight regardless. It's possible she doesn't acknowledge it-a lot of characters have names with similar phonemes in Westeros-but if she takes it that way, it sets up a very bitter relationship between mother and son.
And none of this even mentions what sort of relationship Joffrey would have with Lyonel. Does Lyonel chastise or excuse Joffrey's actions? Does Joffrey develop differently with a big brother in his life? Does Cersei's scorn for Lyonel and doting on Joffrey cause tension? Lots of character avenues to explore.
It both sounds like Lyanna and the name means Lion. So it is a name that both parents would be happy about.
@@jang7675 I like to think that could be Robert's excuse, but I feel as though Cersei wouldn't care for it, still.
Gendry be like "am I a joke to you?" 😂
Cersei isn't his mother
@@theisjepsen22are you sure? They did have some hints that was meant to be the lost son.
@@theisjepsen22 massive hints to the contrary
@@theisjepsen22 I mostly just meant it as a joke 😅
But it is one of my favorite theories 😃
@@kittenallieare you sure? The whole point of Gendry in the books or at least in a game of thrones is to prove that Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella look nothing a like to Robert and more look like Jaime and Cersei. That’s why Ned is described to be shocked in his pov chapter and even in the show because this revelation could potentially lead to a war of succession (which it obviously does). So no to even insinuate that it was hinted it at would be a foolish thing to say.
OMG can you imagine a Choose Your Own Adventure Game of Thrones, that would be wild.
Like Skyrim but make it Game of Thrones
I would play that and max out my sword skills
John Arryns last words “the seed is strong” was 1:15 his attempt at leaving a clue about the so called Baratheon children’s lineage. Wouldn’t “joffs a bastard” have been a better clue? Or “Jaime pumps cersei”? Or “Jaime’s joffs father” or a million other possibilities?
Just sayin.
Maybe the poison made him loopy, maybe he wasn’t sure yet.
I personally think Gendry is the trueborn son of both Cersei and Robert from the show. Gendry did say he remembers his mother had blonde hair then disappeared
The blonde hair thing was the support the fact that Baratheon black hair is dominant over Lannister blonde hair.
Why would Cercei hide away her True Born son? How would she even do that? How would she explain what happened?
"Lyonel Baratheon... gods what a stupid name"
Other reality King Robert
Dont insult your ancestors
What if Viserys only have daughters with Alicent?
What if Lucerys lost his eye *instead* of Aemond?
What if both Lucerys & Aemond died in episode 10?
What if Viserys had Aegon II married Rhaenyra *After* Laenor’s death?
What if Rhaenyra was like Jaehaerys The Conciliator?
What if Rhaenyra Targaryen married Borros Baratheon?
What if Viserys-I made Rhaenys Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death?
What if Viserys-I made Daemon Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death?
What if Rhaenyra married Otto after Alicent married Viserys?
What if Aegon-III lived longer and made his Daughter Daena hair after the death of his sons?
What if Myrcella “Baratheon” married Robb Stark instead Joffrey & Sansa?
What if Jamie Lannister was at the Tower Of Joy instead of Gerold Hightower?
Assuming Rhaenyra chose Otto, her marrying him would make Allicent hate her so much more. I mean, Allicent had no choice in marrying Viserys but Rhaenyra had the freedom to choose her husband and she just decided to marry her best friend's dad to get back at her.
I think Otto would have been surprised but went along with it. I mean, house hightower has more political influence and like house Velaryon, is now a dragon rider house to boot. Regardless who gives birth first, Otto has a dragonrider kin on the throne for him to influence.
@@ifeeldead463 Otto would have married her and immediately started planning her “accidental” demise so he could become king. Fo sho
1: Then Rhaenyra takes the throne unopposed. With no male heirs no one is gonna choose to back Alicent and her brood over the eldest daughter.
2: Again, little happens. Aemond was a big deal because he had Vhagar. If Lucerys loses his eyes, Aemond stays more sane and has no grudge with a giant dragon, and Lucerys does. The overall Dance would change, but frankly it would likely end the same way.
3: Then Rhaenyra wins the Dance. Vhagar and Aemond are the Hightowers biggest weapon. No Vhagar this early means Rhaenys doesn't die and she makes sure Aegon is dead. Completely outnumbered and outgunned Rhaenyra swiftly takes the capital and executes her traitors.
4: No war if Aegon marries Rhaenyra.
5: If Rhaenyra was like Jae (A great warrior, politician, innovator, and leader) she may avoid the war entirely and help her house and the realm progress even further
If Aegon III lived longer, Daeron I wouldn't start the war in Dorne and wouldn't die young. What I don't understand is why they married Daena to Baelor when they had Daeron?
Ngl to u man some of these are horrible
Good video! Of all the Thrones related thought experiments, I think this is one of the more interesting ones.
I thought about this some while ago. I like the image of Lyonel as someone like Teddy Roosevelt-born sick, but refusing to succumb or be frail. A character who seeks adventures and obstacles and challenges, within and without, to overcome them.
Whether his early sickness would leave him stunted or he powers through it and takes his father's height (at least in the books Robert is 6'6". Mark Addy, the actor, is about 6' even), that could potentially change the trajectory of how he sees strength and might.
And this is ignoring whether or not he inherits his grandfather's cunning. Would he be as able a statesman as Tywin, if less brutal? Or only so involved in such affairs as his father-more concerned with feasts and tourneys and glory and challenges?
All interesting directions, to not even mention the elements you touched on in this video.
I had read somewhere that in Westeros, children are not counted as part of the official count until they survive their first year, that's why Baby #1 is not part of Maggie's prophecy
A huge conflict I can see happen is the starks and the Tyrell’s having a conflict. I can’t see Renley turning against his actual nephew. But I can see him reaching for power for both him and his friends. Renley had been trying to get Robert to Mary Margery for a while, I can see him pouncing on Lynal trying to get him to set Sansa aside to put the Tyrell’s in power.
Or Cersei lied to Catelyn. She wasn't known for her sincerity. Her purpose in the room was to see if Bran was going to survive or not and if he would reveal Her and Jamie's secret. So she made up a yarn to show fake empathy to Catelyn to disguise her true purpose.
I don't think Cersei told a complete lie. "She's always been good at using the truth to tell lies." She could have killed the baby (the baby has to exist because Robert talks about it), but I really don't think she did. I think it was expected of a queen to visit a grieving Catelyn (plus the reasons you mentioned), and she's using that to come off sympathetic towards Bran.
@@xxsniperkittykatxx The baby would also be something that she could see as proof that the prophecy from Maggie was false...
Lyonel Baratheon. House Lannister's sigil is a lion. Was the subtle pun intended?
What if Ned never knew about the tower , so what would Arthur and the Hightower guy do with the baby .
That's a good one, I love this. There's so much potential there, would the Daynes or the Hightowers raise the boy as one of their own? Would he ever know his true ancestry? Would they send him to Dany so she can help hide him? (Viserys is a psycho so probably not!). Would the Daynes or Hightowers want him to take the Iron Throne one day? Given the Hightowers' actions in HotD, it is possible they will see this as a way to improve their own power long term and technically he is a Hightower descendant....
Who’s a Hightower descendant? Surely you don’t mean Jon because he’s definitely not,
@@DavidCarradinesBelt Like D&D, I forgot about the existence of someone lol In this case it was Queen Aemma (RIP). Thanks for reminding me to look again, Aemma is the ancestor not Alicent ;-)
The Hightower guy would climb to the top of the tower, trully becoming the highest of towers
The child would've quite likely have been named "Eddard" since Ned named his first son Robb after Robert. And Robert loved Ned like a brother and obviously loved Lyanna so a northern name would've made sense.
Cersei would treat lyonel as if he’s not as good as Joffrey, Tommen, & Myrcella….this would parallel Jon’s relationship with Catelyn.
I believe that Robert and Cersei did have a son. Cersei abandoned it to get back at Robert for cheating on her. She vowed to never get pregnant by Robert again.
13:00 bruhhh that dynamic of Sansa being jealous of Arya bc Lionel wanted to train her… that would be super cool to read about.
An interesting question would be
"What would have happened if Joffery was fostered by Ned in Winterfell?". Keep all the parentage the same, just put Joff under Neds tutelage at the age of 7 (like it would have happened historically). Ned and Roberts parents were still alive when they were "fostered" in the Erie with Jon Aryan. Why would Roberts oldest son not be squired and taught under his best friend? I think it would have made Joff a completely different person and would definitely make what happens a hundred times more interesting.
26:46 Any "What If" scenario is fanfiction, lol. There's no shame in that.
6:52 that freaking song is the best thing to ever come out of Season 8. I know that bar is very low, but that song rocks! I still listen to the full version of that song by Florence & The Machine.
GoT
-What if Robb didn't break his betrothal with Jeyne, but later with Margaery after Renly's death? Assuming someone else saw the shadow and vouched for Brienne so they didn't have to flee.
-What if Jon chose not take the Black and left the wall? (Free cities, rest of Westeros, Beyond the wall)
HOTD
-What if Lucerys survived his flight from Aemond?
-What if Aemond survived the battle of the God's Eye and returned to KL with Alys and his son? (With or Without Vhaegar)
I think Robb would’ve become king, easily. The Lannisters die during Blackwater, Stannis becomes king very briefly, Freys/Boltons have no incentive to betray Robb. Walder may request some heavy compensation. It’s hard to say what’d happen with Sansa, since she’d be a PoW now. Stannis may have her imprisoned, sacrificed at Melisandre’s behest, or just set her free out of his sense of honour and respect for Ned.
I feel like we would worry about Joffery more, cuz I just know he's be bitter about Lyonel getting not just a lot of Cersei's attention but all of Robert's. I mean, unless Tywin arranges an 'unfortunate accident' for the problem child or has him join the army to discipline him while giving him a different outlet for his violent tendencies, Joffery might get Lyonel killed
You know the fandom is dying when the What If scenarios start hitting the feeds 💀
I honestly saw Cersei's story about her son with Robert dying from a fever as a lie spun to try and seem more sympathetic to Catelyn's plight.
And regarding the laughing storm. I recall another of Robert's nicknames was "The laughing storm reborn" or something like that.
To your point about Cersei loving her children. Not quite. She basically loves them as narcissistic extensions of herself. That's why she doted on Joffrey in canon. He was the crown prince and he could allow Cersei the ultimate power. While I cannot say that Lyonel could be like Robert or more like Cersei. I like to believe that if Lyonel prefers to be his own person and stand by his decisions and not bend to the whims of his mom. Then Cersei may grow to despise her eldest son.
The fourth son If they are trueborn still fits the prophecy I think. As it describes their children as Robert's or Cersei's specifically. A trueborn child would not be to either but both. Prophecy can be interpreted to only refer to the bastard children they would have given it's wording IMHO.
Oh, that child is still alive....his name is Gendry. Thats my headcanon, i refuse to believe otherwise.
Why would Cersei give up a legit heir who would secure her power and the Lannister’s influence at court. Even if she hated Robert, Cersei wouldn’t invite questions of incest if she truly had a child with him. Even if the rest are all by Jaime, providing a legit heir keeps her, Joff, Tom, and M secure as no one would care unless that heir were to die in his teens making Joff of questionable parentage the next in line.
Cersei is a lot of things but she isn’t that dumb to get rid of a legit product of the one job she had to do.
@@martidodger7106 In the books, she got multiple abortions to avoid having a child with Robert. There's no low Cersei, really.
@@martidodger7106 “A dozen years,” Ned said. “How is it that you have had no children by the king?”
She lifted her head, defiant. “Your Robert got me with child once,” she said, her voice thick with contempt. “My brother found a woman to cleanse me. He never knew, If truth be told, I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years.
SAME!!!!!
@@JohnDoe-vw4zf It's almost ironic how if she hadn't done that, Maggie the Frog's prophecy may never have come true. Because the child definitely would not be born with a "golden crown." Alternatively, it might've changed the meaning of the prophecy to mean golden crown as in actual crown vice hair. Which would suggest ALL her children sit upon the Iron Throne at some point before dying.
Love the idea that Mel might see Lyonel as the Prince that was Promised, that would be super interesting to see her influence in King's Landing
I'm not sure if Lyonel would be nice, because Joffrey wasn't born evil, but raised. Maybe Cersei would raise her first son the same as Joffrey making him arrogant and cruel just like Joffrey
theoretically geoffry could be sent to casterly rock as hed be next in line after tyrion, there would be enough positions to send out the 3 rather than keep them at court while strengthening relations, getting them away from the rumour mill
2:50 I believe that the profecy says she will have 3 children and that "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds". That would mean that they would have blond hair, wich her first child would not have because "the seed is strong" and he probably had dark hair from his father Robert. So maybe the prophecy aplies only to her children with Jaime.
Speaking on the show only:
I envision Gendry having been Cersei and Roberts child but maybe Cersei didn't want his child and had him ordered dead, and maybe Jamie instead of killing him just gave him up as a common bastard of Robert's. Or she wanted to keep him but Jamie had him taken away and told her he was dead out of jealousy and proceeded to impregnate her. All the visits and questions to Gendry weren't only that people wanted to make sure he was safe/ or kill him because he was Robert's kid but maybe because they wanted to confirm who his mother was. The secret was slowly getting out about the illegitimate heirs as rumors and stories started to connect. That's what I think. 😊
I think a bigger plot whole is that how would catelyn not know the king and queen were expecting a child, given birth and the baby died? They would send out ravens and ok let’s say they only sent to a couple houses, stark would be one of them. The realm would know
13:30 Why do you say that Petry Balish put up the Stark vs Lannister rivialry.
Balish didn't only say he lost the dagger to the imp. No think of what Cerise think of her younger brother and that she have seen Tyrion owning that dagger.
Blaming Tyrion is something Cerise does quite a lot.
I could see vary’s and Little finger too under certain circumstances arrange for an accident for any true born kid they may have had
Interesting point you didn't mention: how would Jeoffrey do growing up not being the heir? Would he accept it and maybe be less of a shitty person (not as arrogant due to his position), or would he turn out even worse?
Didn’t Cersie mention to Katelyn Stark that she and Robert had a stillborn son when she visits them in Branns room after Jamy had thrown him from the tower? (In the HBO serie at least). She said he had black hair, with probably means he was in fact Roberts since Jamy and her children were all blond yet Roberts children all had black hair
I believe that Gendry may actually be Cersei and Roberts true born child. He talks of his mother who had golden hair. Is it possible that the one child born to her with black hair didn't die and the maester's saved him and installed him in the pleasure house to ensure Cersei never knew?
My suggestion for a video is 'What if Aerys died during the Defiance of Duskendale?'
Just found this channel love it . Keep up the good work
Interesting scenario what if question. If Robert had a legitimized son ( a bastard he legitimized as a lord) before he became king by combat and then he marries Cersei and the other children are his “half siblings” what are the chances that son would’ve been allowed to survive to adulthood ? Would his uncles back him or want rid of him?
Now this is an interesting AU!
I think Lyonel booting Jaime from the King's Guard would change things drastically and probably win him favor with Tywin. I think Lyonel would respect Tywin as a warrior as well, making for a strong contender for being Hand still. Jaime being heir to the Rock definitely makes things easier for Tywin to focus on making a King of Lyonel who would likely listen to Tywin.
I just figured that Cersei was lying about the child and was inserting herself into the issue. Plus if there were incest rumor swirling it would be best to plant the idea that Cersei actually bore a son for Robert
It would be odd that Cersei and Robert would have had a child who died and it wasn’t recorded by the maesters/ned wouldn’t have known before hand.
It sounds like the baby lived a bit before the fever took him so likely an announcement would have gone out at the time of birth/the bells would have rung for his birth, so KL would have been aware that a child was born ahead of Joeffry
If you want to do another one of these scenarios you could try doing “what if Ned and Ashara’s baby survived”. Canonically, ashara Dayne had a miscarriage that was likely Ned’s (or his brother Brandon’s) child, and if this child survives Ned would be honor bound to take care of it after ashara commits suicide following the news of her brothers death. That means Jon is likely written off as this baby’s twin brother and both are deemed as Ned and asharas illegitimate children by the rest of Westeros. This gives Jon an outlet to grow up with since he’s no longer the only bastard in winterfell and now has a brother who can relate to him and share his concerns and dreams with. This brother is also the nephew of Arthur dayne, so if the Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree he’s likely an incredible fighter from an early age which would further challenge Jon, who in the books is much less of a fighter and more of a cunning planner. The result is that ned now has to raise an actual bastard who’s ambition to follow in the steps of his uncle would land him in trouble overtime as he likely would follow Ned south as part of his household guard. He may fight Joffrey on the kings road to protect Arya, he may participate in the kings landing tournament, and he may even fight Jamie to protect Ned (Jamie would probably have an interest in his idols nephew as well). However, I’m not one for writing a fanfic at the moment and I just think the scenario is worth pondering since another actual snow could drastically change the course of the story.
Well, technically, Ned and Ashara's son did survive, his name is Jon Snow.
(I'm an NAJ fan.)
I would like to think Lyonel would be eager to combat and every often hurting training partner because he still doesn’t know how to control his strength. Great was for the butcher still have the same fate but more of an accident.
Imagine if he was strong as Robert and Dangerous/Smart plus rich as Twyin damn that kid would be invencible
And if he marry a stark girl gtfo that kid would be the most OP kid in the planet
Even if John Arryn bothers to out the Lannisters (which he might not even bother to do), the stakes are much lower. He might even just get Cersei to confess behind closed doors and they either divorce or they all just agree to sweep it under the rug since there’s a legitimate heir. I can’t see Robert beheading Cersei and her children over it when he’s got a son to succeed him. There wouldn’t be a war of five kings.
You forgot Stannis going to Dragonstone when Jon Aryan died. He was investigation with him.
More vids, this is good stuff sir!
Varys would poison this trueborn son. In the books, his goal is a civil war, and he would get it one way or another.
Then robert kills him for incompetence
I could see Lyonel sending Joferry Tonmen and Marcella back to be Tywin's direct problem though. That would go some distance to quiet some of the claims and since Joffery wont be heir/king, there is no need to let him be a psycho in the capital
I wonder how different Joffrey could've turned out as a second son with a stronger older brother to keep him in line?
So basically sounds like “what if Joffrey wasn’t a dick” so far 😂
Am I the only one that thinks it’s a possibility just a small one, that Robert low key knew. Literally never had this thought until just now
I wonder with Lyonel being older if Renly & Loras would try to get him and Margery together, a sorta nod to the book idea of them hoping Robert marrying her. Yes he wanted Ned and his family together but was it about having Sansa be Queen, just as long as a match happened.
I think Lionel could help Robert try and become a better king and husband if they had a heart to heart. Lionel being Robert's son could be just as stubborn and most likely knows how stubborn Robert is
I think something your missing is Lyonels sickness that he canonically died from. If he survives then he grows up in a weakened body that prevents him from being completely like Robert and probably forces him to rely on his wits and intelligence more than his brawn. That probably makes him insecure with himself since the martial culture of Westeros values strong men who can fight and Robert would especially be hard to please if Lyonel can’t participate in tournaments or even fight. Jon Arryn probably does the majority of the work raising him along with pycelle who follows him around to prevent him from falling sick again and likely dying (on Cerseis orders of course). This would probably make Lyonel a stubborn, insecure, and diligent young man who wants to desperately please his father and outgrow his mothers coddling and helicoptering.
I think Melisandre would be more interested in Lyonel and Sansa's children. The kids with the song of ice (Stark) and Fire (Baratheon through their Targaryen lineage). Especially if they end up with three....
Only 7 true Targaryens were alive during Roberts rebellion and with them all dead. Robert would be the closest claimant being great grandchild of Rhaelle, the aunt of Aerys the Mad
If anyone loves this concept, I strongly recommend the fanfic Trials and Tribulations of the Oathkeeper by DeadlyMaestrom711. The boy is named Daveth, and it’s overall very well-written.
If Lyonel is a trueborn Baratheon. Then why not send Joffey to Casterly Rock to be adopted as a Lannister. Tywin gets a heir, Jaime can hover around Cersei without Twywin needling them. Send Tommen to Old Town to train as a Maester, marry Marcella to someone advantageous to the Baratheons. Edd wouldn't have to agonize over "Truth and Honor"
I'm also gonna agree that Eddard would be the better name, and I think he'd be way different from Joffery because as soon as Cersei starts popping out blonde-haired incest babies Eddard would be sent away to be fostered by Stannis as the Prince of Dragonstone(if for nothing else than to get a constant reminder of their differences out of sight to protect her other children), which could lead to Ned doing the same with Jon, in a bit of irony.
Stannis would get "sons" to raise. Stannis and Davos would pass on their best qualities to go along with the inherited natural charisma of Robert and some likely teaching from his Grandfather Tywin to make him SUPER Formidable. Jon would likely become close with Davos, but also best friends with Eddard setting up for even More drama with Jon's true parentage. Melisandre would also take an interest in Jon, with him having legitimate potential to fulfill her prophecy by finding some eggs and "awakening a Dragon" from beneath Dragon Stone.
It may be a slight technicality but there’s possibly a difference between a child and a baby? I mean, if it was said how many would she birth could change it somewhat
make a what if Aegon V didn't die in The Tragedy of summerhall, and had managed to hatch dragon eggs, let's say 3 dragon eggs to make it interesting, how would that change history from that point o,n with no one dying in summerhall and dragons returning to the world?
Why wouldn't lionel have figured out the incest already? he's been around the babies all his life. If ned told him about it, i expect his reaction would be "yeah i knew years ago"
Imagine jeoffry and tommen are actually trueborn sons and robert just had bad genes.
Do what if Robert refused to become king! I’ve always wondered what that would lead to but could never come up with anything
You say this sounds like a glorified fanfic, but it sounds so cool! I'd 100% read it!
Very entertaining, for you for your work.)
I wonder if this is even possible in a "what if" scenario, because it would require changing Cersei's character to begin with. Because... I kind of think she killed "Lionel." And by "kind of think," I mean she definitely did. And even if she didn't, and he actually died of natural causes... if he hadn't died of natural causes, she would have killed him. She wanted a pure Lannister on the throne... somebody who was hers and Jaime's and not Robert's.
Edit: I'm basing this primarily on what she said to Ned during that meeting where Ned tried to warn her. Can't recall if she goes into this in the show, but in the books, she specifically said that she only wanted Jaime's children, and went out of her way to keep Robert from being able to conceive any children with her.
Edit #2: If we take your premise that Lionel is not killed, I agree Ned would tell him the truth after he ascends the throne. He probably wouldn't give Cersei the same heads-up, because the reason he gave Cersei that heads-up in canon was specifically because he knew Robert was not above wanting Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen killed for not being his, and Ned needed to prevent that. Without that factor, he probably wouldn't have given Cersei any heads-up. Once Lionel knows the truth, though, I think Ned would be satisfied, regardless of what Lionel chooses to do with it. I think Ned's problem with the three kids was that they were a lie, and he had to tell his friend the truth, and then the problem was that Ned suspected that the same woman who told that lie had then _killed_ his friend, for the purpose of ensuring her child's seat on the throne. Ned doesn't actually have any bad feelings towards the children; quite the contrary... the whole reason he gave Cersei a heads-up was to _protect_ her children. He'd see it as his duty to inform Lionel of the truth, but unless Lionel follows in his father's footsteps and orders his three half-siblings _killed,_ I don't think Ned would have any problem with anything Lionel chooses to do.
What Lionel would do does raise an interesting question. He could very well simply legitimize his three half-siblings. But if he legitimizes Joffrey, that would incentivise Joffrey to kill him and take the throne. But if he legitimizes Myrcella and Tommen, but _not_ Joffrey (because canon Joffrey was a terror to his siblings, and I see no reason why that would change... if anything, seeing his older brother be doted on by Robert would probably make Joffrey worse), that could lead to any number of political and family issues. I think Ned (who would not leave) would advise him _not_ to legitimize any of his half-siblings (otherwise there could be a Blackfyre-type situation), but send them to be wards in other places, away from Cersei. Which would lead to an interesting issue with Cersei.
@maryssaflynn3208 That's a good point. Hadn't thought of that yesterday. :)
Cersei told Ned that she had managed to avoid being impregnated by Robert except for one accident. She used an herbal preparation to induce a miscarriage.
The entire Baratheon line is related to the Targaryen line the progenitor of house Baratheon was Aegon the conqueror's cousin.
I’ve actually been playing with an idea like this. Mine would also be named Lyonel, but he is the younger twin to Joffrey. How is this possible? Well, there is a very rare medical phenomenon in which a woman conceives by two different men if the “acts” occur practically on top of each other. This results in fraternal twins and is called superfecundation. I am ironing details out still, but there will be a war between the brothers, and Lyonel will marry Sansa.
I think Gendry is the true born son of Cersei and Robert.
Ned wouldn’t abandon Robert’s son like that, no way. Especially with Sansa still there and the attempt on Bran’s life, he’d stay if only for Sansa’s protection. They’d probably arrange a deal to have Jaime, Cersei and the bastards dismissed to Casterly Rock to remove them from public eye and politicking in exchange to stay as hand.
Also where’s Tywin? I imagine he’d have a few things to say if Lyonel found out about Cersei’s adultery had her and Jaime and the kids sent back. It’s hard to say how he’d react. I like to think he’d immediately arrange to have Jaime find a suitable heir and disinherit Cersei’s line. Or if Ned does end up leaving, he’d probably join Lyonel as hand.
Even if Renly attempted to go at the throne, there's no way Lyonels house would side against him. He's a Baratheon, even if some were loyal to Renly, majority eoukd side with their rightful king. And plus, I doubt the Tyrells would even side with Renly either. They only did so because of Robert's death and Joffrey being king. Lyonel being the legitimate king would have waaaaaay to many houses on his side. The Lannisters, all of the Riverlands, the North and Vale. Its way too many houses against what, two at most?
Jaime Lannister is a:
Kingslayer
Guestright Breaker
Two of the worst crimes. Yet he did it out of:
Honour
Love
If he became a Kinslayer by killing Cercei he would have committed the 3 worst crimes. Yet each for a good reason.
i think this timeline is peacefull in some part whit Lyonel and sanas being together and having children the starks and lannister being more controled, and if everything goes right we could se a stable kingdoom but after lyonel death i think there could be a war between again the starks and lannisters but who knows, about the hand of the king ned and stannis are the most obvious options i dont think in this scenario theres chance of twin being the hand of the king
I want to play what if for the books.
What if Theon stayed loyal to Robb Stark.
What If Robb Stark did declare for Stannis
What if Stannis won the Battle of Blackwater Bay
What if Lyanna Stark lived
What if Tyrion learned the truth about Tysha when he was still hand in A Clash of Kings
What if Jon was not betrayed by Bowen Marsh and the other mutineers
What if Loras Tyrell was not badly wounded in the Siege of Dragonstone
What If Robb learned of the Red Wedding before hand and Roose Bolton's involvement
What if Robb married Roslin Frey right after Whispering Wood and kept Theon around and sent mama back to Winterfell and never executed Rickard Karstark. Basically if Robb never made dumb decisions.
Something else I'm wonder about this scenario is if Lyonel knows the truth would accelerate his marriage to Sansa to ensure he has an heir?
Marriage would be pointless without consummation (sex).
Sansa would still need to get her first period for a child to be possible. You cant make that come faster im afraid.
I thought gendry was their son because cersei says her son had black hair like rob and gendry said he remembers his mom's blonde golden hair
Also no such thing as video getting too long!! I listen to these as podcasts while I'm working and I wish they were longer!!
The Lannister bastards have to be declared loudly and publicly or Lyonel's life is in danger.
What about Stannis? Would he even have left for Storm's End or been present in King's Landing?
Honestly, I think the fourth child thing was purely a writing oversight.