An Updated Civ 3 Wonder Tier List
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- 31:10 Don't care about my ramblings and just want to see the tier list? Click here!
I did this video a couple years back, but my understanding and opinions on the wonders in this game have changed a lot since then. Specifically, I've played a lot of one city culture games, and also learned about how tourism gold works.
I should mention, with a lot of these wonders I mention the culture value. THIS IS ONLY RELEVANT IF YOU'RE SERIOUSLY PURSUING A ONE CITY CULTURE VICTORY. Otherwise, the effect of culture on a wonder is basically nothing.
Fine print on what is a good wonder: I decided not to count "capturing wonders" when making these decisions. Mostly because it would bias in favor of cheap wonder with local, and not global effects, and I already rated those quite highly. I didn't want to say "actually, The Pyramids isn't that good because if you don't build it, you can capture it. On small maps, if you take an enemies wonder city, you've probably got the game on lock with or without the wonder you took. And on big maps, the odds of capturing any particular wonder is quite low. So even if this factor was included, it wouldn't change much. 
Игры
The Oracle is amazing*.
*When the AI wastes crucial early game shields on it, instead of pumping out settlers. ;)
Or when you're building it at Civ IV to get a free tech... sometimes, piramids are better in that game.😅
My dad and I played this game together so much when I was younger. I’m so glad there’s still a community of people who still appreciate how amazing it is. Love ur channel Ɛ>
Same here. Played with my dad Civ 2 and Civ 3 a lot
Universal Suffrage
Did you mean: Prebuild for Hoover Dam?
Top 10 Best Anime Redemption Arcs
Suede and the Mausoleum of Maussollos
Suede and the Great Wall
Suede and the Colossus
Biggest Anime Betrayal
Suede and Leonardo's Workshop
Hope you like some of my changes in opinion here, you feedback has been instrumental in influencing how I use a lot of these wonders.
Thanks for this! Yeah, your Sid Byzantium playthrough where you opened Colossus was eye-opening for me regarding the effect of some of those early wonders.
And the best UU the hussar that can fly
Me again, having posted on the previous video about my issues with getting civ 3 complete world edit to work. Do you have any suggestions on how to get it to work aside from what you already replied with in the comments of the previous video? If not, I apologize and will just continue to try and stumble around to find an answer. Like *shudders* microsoft windows support ;-;
Also it is super cool that you value civ 3 a lot, I take it you are not a fan of 5 and 6 as well? I feel like those games ruined a lot of what civ seemed to be in my mind.
@@chewee517 you have the steam version?
@@chewee517 Send screenshots to the discord of what you're opening and the error messages you're getting.
I haven't played civ 6. I have videos on my opinions on Civ 4 and 5
It's hard to find an early-game wonder that beats the *"Build 5 Cities"* wonder. It really gives a strong boost to your expansion phase.
Agreed! But sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too :)
build 10 units - and capture AI 5 cities
Was able to build pyramids with a great scientist. Snowballed like crazyy
Sun tzu also means your units instantly heal after taking a city
Haven't played civ 3, not planning on doing so because it looks like way too much for me, but I still really enjoy your videos. I'm more of a civ 5 guy, and in part because of that I think it's cool that there's a community keeping the even older civs alive. I feel like civ 3 had a lot more "soul" to it than 6 or even 5 (as much as I like 5)
I've never played a game of AOE3 in my life and I still watch videos on it :)
3 is great - and there are some great mods out there too (civfanatics)
@@suedeciviii7142 AoE3 is a great game if your computer can handle it
@@samthomasmusic To be fair when was the last time help files were this useful?
Having gone from civ 6 to civ 3 (which I hadn't played in a decade), I was amazed by how much simpler Civ 3 is than I expected. There are only three actual yields to keep track of, techs often provide nothing other than advancement on the tech tree, and there are no civics to deal with, either. Plus, it seems like the only distinguishing features between civs are their UU and their two traits. Honestly, I say give it a go! The game is dirt cheap on Steam. I think I still prefer 6 overall, but it's unfair to compare them because they're really like apples and oranges.
Im a big fan of civ 3 since my youngest days! I played original game for like 5 years. I got complete edition for my birthday 2014. Now i play civ 3 on steam. Great to see active civ 3 you tube channel! Good job bro. Real nostalgia!
I "wonder" if the copernicus observatory gold bonus was done on purpose or it's some kind of bug. Had no idea about that bonus.
Also the downside for the statue of Zeus is that you need ivory, so it's not possible to always build it.
I’d argue that is actually a massive upside funnily enough, since it makes it extremely unlikely to have it stolen, so while you won’t often get access to it, when you do its pretty much a guaranteed build that will save shields on building units.
Great list.
Consider a Small Wonder list video.
Secret HQ was always my favorite for Huge Map games.
Nice Suede, been talking about it for awhile! Makes me feel good having gone for Maus in all my games ...
Honestly learning alot from this channel. I liked Civ 3 alot back in the day as a kid and started getting back into it recently. I suppose I was doing alot of things wrong xD
My enemy, persia built statue of zeus, because it have ivory on its island...
I invaded its island and captured the city with this wonder during middle ages..
So i fight persian ancient cavs with my very own ancient cavs
Looking forward to the 'every tech ranked' video my guy
Maybe a "top 10 best tech powerspikes in the game".
@@suedeciviii7142 1) - 9) Steam Power
10) Printing Press
@@josephsaxe8410 I'd probably say Steam Power, then Replaceable Parts. Flight, philosophy and iron working are definitely up there.
Could also do "best techs not on the core tech path" / which ones are worth it -- my thought is 1) Republic 2) Literature, 3) Nationalism, 4) Chivalry, 5) Military Tradition, 6) Navigation (for map trading), -- that is usually where I draw the line on which techs are worth it when not doing 1 city culture-- but a bunch of others can be worth it in specific scenarios.
@@suedeciviii7142philosophy into map making on archipelago maps is also extremely strong tech powerspike
I had an amazing capital city in one of my games and was able to build the colossus, pyramids, mausoleum, and great lighthouse there. I got sun tzus or sistine don’t remember which and then got copernicus and Newton’s university in there, all along with the library and univ. Oh gosh when I put tech on 100% my capital alone was pumping out almost 400 science per turn by the time I got to the modern age. Maybe I’ll try to take a screenshot some time.
This man just told you not to build the pyramids if you're Egypt.
I love to play archipelago maps because I love the expansion and discovery of new lands and not all being stuck fighting from turn 25 onwards. Fighting wars, fighting to block off lux, fighting over cities and land… the great lighthouse not only allows you first dibs on new islands, it allows you to block off enemy ships who won’t dare go around you into “unsafe” waters. This wonder is so op on any map besides Pangea that I have grown accustomed to rushing philosophy, always the first to get it, using my free tech on map making, one of the most expensive techs of the era, and build this as top priority behind the pyramids.
In a game without luxuries I was saved by the combination of Temple of Artemis and Sistine Chapel. Free temples that let me build OP cathedrals and loosen my economy a lot. But it's really circumstantial and I don't see it as a useful tip. I should mention that there were no luxuries to trade, the only 2 extra luxuries that the AI had were traded among themselves pretty much permanently, I never got a chance to grab one
Hmmmm Interesting.
My big grief with the ToA is that it expires.
My big grief with Sistine Chapel and cathedrals in general is how expensive they are. Cathedrals are more cost efficient in terms of maintenance than temple, but you have to do both buildings.
But if you did ToA first, you could save 60 shields on a temple. You'd lose the temple, but you'd keep the cathedral, and the cathedral still functions without the temple.
Leonardo’s workshop is a must for Scandinavia.
About Leonardo's (time index 13:04 for the slide) - you say it isn't that useful due to what you can upgrade with it using examples of military units to come (cannons to artillery) or saying knights are already cheap enough to upgrade. But you miss a trick here by selling the wonder short, which is the cost of ancient era units to modernize. You have said upgrade a few of the mounted warriors to cavalry, and keep using the mixed stack as the mounted warriors are so cheap to build (basically using them as either cannon fodder or to quall resisters while the main units do the heavy lifting). This is extremely sound, but one of the reasons you probably say upgrade a few mounted warriors is that they cost 120 gold each to upgrade! So if you have 10 to 20 of these cheap and very powerful ancient era units due to taking out a civ or two, you would have to spend 1,200 gold to upgrade just 10 of them - and that is a huge amount by the time you have barely reached the second era. So to be able to save 600 gold by having this wonder is phenomenal, and I would say not many people ever have 1,200 gold at this stage of the game to use on upgrades instead of research for techs. So not only do you get to upgrade more ancient era units to modern units, you are not having to spend 600 gold (assuming on the upgrading of 10 mounted warriors), plus your cities do not have to produce the modern units. I know having the wonder you probably are thinking it encourages the upgrades and the modern units in the base cities are quick to produce, but it means you can have those cities for building other wonders or increase your military size without having to wait for modern units which allows for a continuing strong presence on the map.
If you're fighting heavily early game (which is why you have lots of ancient units), you can't really afford to spend 600 shields on a wonder. Better get another 20 mounted warriors instead.
3:50 coming from a civ 1 perspective, they basically are trying to do the same wonder as in civ 1, except war weariness is completely different there
in civ 1, war weariness doesnt actually exist, theres just a mechanic to the governments of democracy and republic where each military unit thats out of their home city makes one citizen (2 if democracy) in that city unhappy, thats a pretty big negative, tho you can't declare wars if you are in those government types anyway, Universal Suffrage reduces that unhappiness effect by 1, negating it for republic, but democracy still has 1 unhappiness going for each military unit out of their home city (this also stacks)
The Internet will not put pollution in all your cities, no. I recently was screwing around on lower difficulties and grabbed it (because honestly, I was a Modern civilization when half the map was in the Middle Ages, why not right?) and did not have issues with that in cities that didn't have Factories. So it does have that going for it?
My editor broke somehow, so I can't check to be 100% sure, but I read that research labs do produce 1 pollution.
If they also produce it if it's built from the Internet - I'm not sure.
I almost never get the great library, I'll have to try that out sometime! Though, I'm still kind of stuck at Monarch trying to improve my game.
The Maus community was appeased.
i love this niche channel
I'm just amused by the moment he compared Great library with the theory of evolution ❤️😂😁👍
Oracle is better than Pyramids for a 20k game. It's 100 shields cheaper and thus is more culture earlier. If you get an early SGL, it's best to either build The Pyramids with it and then hand-build the Oracle, or hand-build the Oracle, and then immediately SGL rush the Pyramids.
Thank you I am fairly new to civ 3 and this was super helpful,but the main thing that's troubling me is when should I trigger a golden age?
The traditional advice is to wait until you're out of despotism, because you'll lose some of the golden age shields and commerce to the despotism penalty. But a despotism golden age can be very effective if you use it to build a lot of military units and conquer as much as possible.
You can also try to time a golden age for when there are a few wonders you want.
The Knights Templar is a very good Wonder to build. Crusaders are ideal for defensive terrain. They also make excellent garrison units. A crusader army is great for blocking enemy counter attacks. You do not want your strongest opponent to have extra free heavy infantry.
i like how the cure for cancer makes cancer patients only content, not happy
13:20 Cheap Galleys -> Galleons -> Transports is pretty useful on island maps.
Have to agree with Leo's workshop, I built it in a lot of games because forums say it's top3 in the game and it really doesn't do that much. Upgrading 30 knights (bold to assume that many have survived) saves 450 gold... and that's it. Perhaps some defenders here and there but then until mid industrial era it does nothing
Completally agree with you but even then i always gonna grab it if i can where i found its best use is to upgrade all these catapults/trebs or cannons in artillery
Honestly I build every Wonder that's within reach because I'm like if I have it they don't
I played an Iroquois game where I exploited Leonardo's workshop to get cheap cavalry.
If you avoid getting a golden age you can always train mounted warriors and then cheaply upgrade to cav. This effectively lets you hurry production for 1.5 gold/shield instead of 4.
It might not be worth skipping the golden age. But I was overusing exploits in that run.
Cool strat, I definitely didn't consider a horseman upgrade strat. If you had a lot of gold (say, from the great lib) then that's a good way to convert it to shields.
You don't need to skip golden age. Just don't tech chiv or unhook your iron :)
@@suedeciviii7142 Good idea with the iron. Any civ can do a horseman-cav upgrade. Upgrades are cheaper than rushing even without Leonardo's.
Thanks for your videos. You do a great job at explaining the true effects of units/buildings. I was a 0% happiness slider noob before your guides. I played the game wrong for 15 years. Now I can beat Sid difficulty (With A tier civs)
I'd love to watch you play more scenarios or special challenges. Regular games and multiplayer videos are too generic for me.
@@elroyjennings7833 I'm kind of burnt out on single player gameplay in general. Most of my content for the next little while will be clickbait lists and guides. But if I did another video, it would be some sort of challenge where I can only plant cities on tundra.
@@suedeciviii7142 I really wanna try this on a higher difficulty, but I fear it's impossible to get Leo's when you have GLib and don't tech isn't it? :/
@@Hardrada_1066 Prebuild using suntzus or palace.
How would the list change if obsoletion were disabled?
Glib would be broken. ToA would be a lot better, as would Hanging Gardens. Oracle might actually be usable too. But I don't why you'd risk losing Glib
Off the top of my head these are the only ones that are really significantly reduced in effectiveness due to becoming obsolete.
I'm gonna go do a Great Library playthrough. Any tips?
Set science to 0% after building it. Use the gold to upgrade veteran warriors to swords.
Where would you have iron works, it doesn’t come into play too much but it can be quite good I think
It's a small wonder, not a great wonder. Pretty high I guess?
The only timer the Hoover Dam has had much effect for HoF games I've played has been in space race games. It's usually pretty useless otherwise. The AIs are often nothing soon after artillery proper come into play in my experience, if not sooner.
Sun Tzu's is good for capturing, but that's about it.
The race to the Great Library can easily be lost on Sid 60% wet warm Pangea maps, even with a powerful start.
U play on sid?
@@owenkile6042 I have, yes.
100k cultural victory is the most FUN victory condition in the entire game, and you can't change my mind. :P
Counterpoint: Have you watched my cursed playthrough attempt?
@@suedeciviii7142 I don't know if I actually have. I love playing on huge maps for cultural victory in singleplayer.
@@MorganJ Here's the ending. Absolutely cursed, don't watch the whole thing. But there's a good recap at the end.
ruclips.net/video/TDnjwFRl4YA/видео.html
@@suedeciviii7142 It says "Video unavailable
This video is private."
@@MorganJ I switched it to unlisted, I think it'll work now.
1:55 if you play rise and rule revisited they have longevity in the industrial era
The great lighthouse does not allow trade over sea squares. Tried it yesterday in a hope it would allow me to get horses and trade for luxuries (having only 2 was taxing me dearly in lux slider and requiring cathedrals). It didn't work and i needed Astronomy to get Knights and get the luxuries (and i built templars sacrificing sun-tzu and leonardo)
Not even between your own cities?
@@suedeciviii7142 Nope, i coudn't get the horses from the distant island as there were no coastal tile connection. I could colonize it due to the wonder.
It's the same as having a Carrack, can sail ocean but can't trade or move resources
thanks!
How interesting would it be if the oracle had the longevity effect but became obsolete possibly even quicker? I think it would have to be balanced a bit but it might make the Oracle one of the better wonders and worth going for.
I think longevity as is is created so you can just snowball and overpower any opponent given enough time but it would be nicer if it provided an instant boost so that the player could say instantly increase population of every city by a certain amount with content faces,
Very abusable IMO, you can just dodge the tech that expires it. It would also stack with the Pyramids hahah.
Maybe if it expired at philosophy or something, so you're locked out of republic and era advancement.
3:42 Don't you mean a Wonder-whelming wonder?
I'll see myself out
Where would you put Wall Street? I always try and get it if I can.
Not a great wonder. So you can get it every game if you want. I like it quite a bit, although I don't like the prereq of building 5 stock exchanges.
@@suedeciviii7142 Huh. I always thought it was lol. Thanks for the great tips as always
About Smith's Trading Company and something you said in this video compared to what you said in your video "Top 6 Essential Buildings In Civ 3". You said the wonder doesn't increase the rate you are teching as it only increases your surplus or reduce your deficit, but doesn't the buildings it pays for allow you to have more gold per turn which means you can ramp up your science slider? Did you mean it doesn't directly increase teching but will allow an indirect possible increase? Or did I misinterpret something you said?
If you're playing well at this point of the game, your tech + luxury slider should be more than 100%. Gold from trades should be more than enough to cover the deficit.
This is a generalization though. In my recent sid game, I was behind in tech and benefitted from it.
@@suedeciviii7142 Thanks for replying and clarifying for me, I appreciate it
As a Civ4 player I am surprised that the Oracle is the worst wonder in Civ3, while in Civ4 it's probably one of the best ancient buildings, giving you a technology for free
Longevity might help domination victory through population if you just replace all of your mines into irrigations!!
Yes, but no, 99 times out of 100 the bottleneck for domination is land area, not population
@@suedeciviii7142 is this your gameplay statistics? When you have the greatest land area, but below 66%, you can end the game by clustering new cities and irrigating all. It is an actual domination victory strategy.
Some wonders are so weak already that it's kinda annoying that they also expire pretty quickly. I usually like to play CivIII modded because I was never a fan of the basic map scripts so I just set a lot of wonders to not expire. Even if I rarely plan on building the Oracle or Temple of Artemis, may the AI get to enjoy an actually useful wonder.
What about Art of War?
I wonder if you can sell all the temples builded by Temple of Arthemis just before you get education?
You can't sell buildings created by wonders.
@@suedeciviii7142 pity. It would make Temple of Artemis even more op
Suede, At 08:12 you said if you are playing with 10 carriers, you are playing the game badly.
Can you explain further.
Sure, absolutely. Carriers are really expensive. The AI also builds a lot of ships and planes, so you need to defend your carriers with a lot of boats.
It's worth pointing out that ships are generally overcosted in Civ 3. A single bombing run will destroy a regular carrier or destroyer about 20% of the time, and a submarine 40% of the time.
20 bombers could easily require 1300 shields worth of investment in naval units. So if you didn't use carriers, you could build 33 bombers instead of 20.
It's far better to use airbases then carriers. Airbases have a special property where the planes inside it cannot be bombed, unlike cities. If the enemy puts the airbase into their own culture (Likely by taking the city next to the carrier) the planes get teleported back to one of your cities.
So all you need to do is get some sort of toehold on the island or continent you're attacking (or an island nearby) and you can just move all your planes over.
Small wonder tierlist next?🧐
"Mediocre" vs "Game Breaking" is a lot of space between the broadly similar Knights Templar and Statue of Zeus. I know you love your mobile units, but is a middle ages Gallic Swordsman really 4 tiers higher than the second highest offense of the same era?
Yes 😎.
In fact, if the statue of Zeus came with the option between either producing either Ancient Cavs or Crusaders, I'd pick the ancient cavs. They are just really good units. And the different between getting them when you're fighting spears, vs getting them when you're fighting pikes/muskets is huge.
Hi Suede! I know Civ3 is your shtick, but will you make a similar list for Civ4? Thanks!
I don't know Civ 4 well enough!
The Great Library doesn't break the game when I build it : )
Seriously, I must build it just to survive.
majellan
When I am a religious civ then I usually rush to monarchy be cause you can sell polynesium and monarchy to the other civs for so much.
Generally mid techs and currency are the best to sell. The AI goes for bottom tech soon, but not super soon. If you start with CB and rush for monarchy ASAP I could see it working on emperor and below though.
The Oracle is only good if you've already built the Temple of Artemis (temples in every city).
These 2 wonders should be combined into one wonder.
The human player doesn't take the 'religious' tech route in the Ancient era anyway (better to go for the 'science' route or the 'war' route - so it's just to keep the AI from wasting a bunch of early shields or to make the bottom route more tempting.
Hard disagree. 800 shields is an absurd investment for what, 2 happiness per turn? That expires super early? Why not just Hanging Gardens + Temple of Artemis? Gives the same number of happy, plus faces in your cap, and expires later, and it doesn't require throwing your expansion phase to secure the early wonder.
What's the hurry to get all that global happiness anyway? That's helpful if you're growing wide, but if you're growing wide, you can't really afford to spend 800 shields on wonders.
Oh, agreed though on tech paths. The Oracle is very useful at keeping the AI from building good wonders hahah
further question here: how much unhappiness are you even dealing with before Oracle has expired? Granted that partially depends on your difficulty but in that stage of the game you maybe have one or two cities large enough for mad citizens to be an issue.
But you don't have to rebuild temples though? Once the temple of Artemis expires I've only ever had to build temples in cities where I didn't have temples before it was built. The ToA pays for temples you already had built.
If you already have temples in all your cities why are you building the wonder at all?
Rank small wonders now. I have heroic epic number 1
The best Wonder is the wonders i "build" with my Mayans Swordsmen :)
BABE WAKE UP, NEW SUEDE VIDEO
Yeah I dont consider it a real game if I do great library
Didnt played for long but if i remebemr well research labs that are put in your towns by The internet dont produce pollution.
Interesting. Makes sense I guess, they don't cost maintenance either.
if you capture city with great library you get all the techs the ai have done in one singel turn. good strat for playing on sid.
yup - just don't research at all and then caveman your way into some capital that is 2 eras ahead of you.
Fun times.
@@TheWatchernator right of passage and death stack next turn upgrade all to modern armors
Alright hear me out, you play on a Huge Pangea map versus just 4 other civs on a lower difficulty. You've already rushed the Pyramids and you just got a scientific great leader from discovering Polytheism, so of course you're going to rush ToA. What's the perfect wonder to keep up your wide and tall civs happiness? Bet you wish you rushed The Oracle in your 2nd best city now :D
bruh you legit sound triggered when talking abt the mausoleum
nice vid doe
If you are a slaving fascist on a oversized map longevity is amazing!
Do you say barrackses as an inside joke? Barracks does not rhyme with hobbitses lol
One building = a barracks
Two building = 2 barrackses
"Fishes" and "persons" really shouldn't be a word, but people use it to talk about different species or groups. Language evolves!
Or in Civ 3, it's like how I say "roading" that tile even though "road" isn't a verb.
@@suedeciviii7142 I think you're mistaken, the plural of barracks is barracks. The possessive form of barracks might be pronounced barracks's however.
@@AGenericAccount Language evolves, like the example I gave with "fishes". English is particularly malleable. So I use something grammatically "wrong" in order to make it clear that I'm using a plural. Because otherwise it's ambiguous, since the name of a single barracks is also "barracks".
@@suedeciviii7142 liar liar, pantses on fire 🤣
@@AGenericAccount Prescriptivism is bad.
An example of what I'm referring to.
www.grammarly.com/blog/fish-fishes/#:~:text=The%20plural%20of%20fish%20is,often%20referred%20to%20as%20fishes.