The problem is that the top players are barely 2300-2400 for months until the end of the season where they go to around 2.8-3k. In shadowlands they ended up at 3500-3600. Why not make those ratings possible from the start of the season. Having the r1/glads playing at these low ratings really frustrates the low players which a big chunk of them quit throughout the season and makes the overall ladder worst.
@@dylan-z8w4t yes it can, they just need to make te inflation dynamic based on the amount of games played. As much games as expected? Good. To less games? Inflate more. That is coded in a day.
Perfect! Man, that would be great for the vast majority of players. The only negative point for Blizzard is that they would have to create new attractions to keep players playing.
A few ideas that they could literally steal from other games and it would revitalize WoW PvP: 1. Tanks having an actual role because FFS it's been 20 years now and you've never gotten around to making one of the three roles useful. Look at Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning for ideas. The big one is that they do less damage but a percentage of damage done to teammates close to them are taken by them. Think of all of the spells that are really important in PvE but not in PvP and give them functions when used against players, and then balance around that. Set bonuses on PvP gear for tanks could be added that allow them to reduce incoming damage around them to teammates. There are a million ways to do it, but provided these effects do not stack you don't have to worry about compositions AND you fix the cluster F%@# of arenas trading so many defensive CDs that you can't get DPS to use in PvE; you don't need it anymore. 2. All the problems with CC, DR categories, needing addons to PvP, daunting for new players, some comps being godlike and others not so good, etc. can all be solved by using a "resolve bar" system like SWtOR did. Sure, that game messed it up and didn't listen to player feedback, but they built a better mousetrap. Best of all, each individual spell can effect the bar more or less, so now devs have a surgical tookit instead of a nerf hammer that has ZERO impact on PvE. You have zero concern with how much CC is out there because the bar solves for both how long any given CC chain can last AND the overall percentage of time spent in CC while doing PvP. None of this is rocket science. Combined with a revamp of the ranking system and a new reward system, this would change EVERYTHING.
the whole game needs a reset. cool if top 5% of playerbase enjoy seasonal resets and all the shit, but WoW will never be able to compete with real PvP games, it's an MMO (not anymore tbh but u get the point) and MMO's arent made for esports
@@bigcucumber1233, sure, but only because they hardly ever give it any resources and development time, and they don't consider the impact of class changes on PvP. Why would people continue to play it if the devs don't care about it?
I'm a relatively new WoW PVP'er. I started PVPing in Shadowlands and it felt like EVERYONE was Gladiator and I couldn't even get into LFG groups because "LF Gladiator XP BM Hunter" and that wasn't me. When Solo Shuffle was introduced it actually allowed me to play rated PVP and it was cool, but similarly I couldn't really play much due to DPS queue's being 20 minutes. So I decided to heal, which is exponentially harder than DPSing. I've peaked at 1800, but it feels like I haven't really improved. I still use Vuhdo like I do in PVE, because I'm so used to it. TLDR: The barrier to entry is SO high to even start playing PVP in WoW, that's it's almost impossible. To clarify: I don't think PVP gearing is a problem, in fact it's pretty easy. By barrier of entry, I'm referring to the knowledge and experience that you are expected to have to even ATTEMPT to play LFG 2's or 3's.
If you can do high m+ keys and raid mythic you can become an exceptional player in pvp, same for pvprs, if youre high xp youl do great in pve too, its all about trading cooldowns properly specially as a healer
The barrier to entry isn't high at all. The gear is basically free and all you have to do is queue. If you want gladiator handed to you, you're playing the wrong game. Gladiator used to be top 3% in the entire region it's only recently that it was linked to an arbitrary rating.
@@ttt69420 why are you discussing that? This is this players experiance. Its nothing to debate. This is the issue, you can have your opinions but numbers doesnt lie my friend. Pvp in wow in war within is as dead as it has been ever. That part of the game hase died. I saw the activity numbers and it just that. You have to many boosters and glad tghat play in 1500-2400 that should be above 2800 all of them and not under. This is the main issue, because being good at wow probably cannot have you have another job or income so have to become a booster. Since you pay gametime with gold that has becomen wrosen. They have to boost be able to even play.
@@ttt69420 The barrier of entry is not about gear though? The barrier of entry is about so much more. Playing pvp for the first few months feels like trying to learn driving for the first time, except instead of a car you need to learn on a plane. The guy says he plays healer, so he has to know his class, he has to have match up knowledge, he has to monitor team health bars, enemy cast bars to avoid CC, mind his positioning, be aware of team's positioning so he doesn't lose LOS, be aware of enemy positioning so he doesn't get CC'd easily or so he can apply his own CC, be aware of his CDs... and let's not even get started on interface and addon related issues for beginners. This is what "barrier of entry" ACTUALLY means.
It wouldnt matter for wow if its numbers or metals, or diamonds or whatever. The wow actual ranking problem is that it just fluctuates enormously between seasons and makes you "RANK" (whatever name) means nothing. There's a bajillion ppl with glad who got it in a super inflated season and cant even break 2k nowadays. If you rebuild the system and rename Gladiator to Diamond...it wont matter in 2 or 3 seasons if it keeps getting this type of fluctuations.
@@martinolivares1567 There is no difference. The number is meaningless. All that matters is percentile. Gladiator used to be top 3% regardless of how inflated or deflated the season was. I swear blizzard are morons.
@@ttt69420 ur both wrong about titles btw. Glad was top 0.5% not 3% every season until Bfa S1 not DF and R1 is top 0.1%. and I also agree that changing the system wont matter much in a game that based around balance and tuning for the lower tier players
The competition. Why do you think Liquid went through hell and back to kill Mythic Queen Ansurek first? Also, having new rewards & cosmetics before everyone else does...is a luxury only good players can afford.
Because you have to put in a lot of games to climb. So for instance, if you do what most players do where they do placements and a few games after and then stop for the season, your rank is much lower than it would be otherwise lol.
@@aleksanderdorkov5312 To get better..? Like why are you even playing this game? Do you pay $15 to log in and get free shit? Go play a single player game. Your mindset is exactly what blizzard is catering to and killing this game. Sad.
The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is a fundamental flaw and a mindset that the player base needs to change. Why do people play golf, tennis or do swimming? Because it's fun. If you don't enjoy it don't play. You won't get better if you don't practise. Practise makes progress.
I like the League dev's view. There should be inflationary rank increase at the lower levels, and then "real prestige" ranks at some arbitrary higher rank where the inflation stops. The inflation and constant progress feels good when you're just starting out, you want rewards and to feel like you're making constant progress.
This isn't what's happening in wow though. There were pro, yea PROFESSIONAL WOW PLAYERS, stuck at 2k rating for what? 2 months before blizz started MMR inflation. That means the average gladiator was STUCK at 1700 - 1800 for 2 fkn months. Whatever blizzard is doing, it's not what he's describing. Edit: From what I can tell blizz has some kind of algorithm that controls the "bell curve" of rating. If they squish the the bell curve from 0 - 1800 it throws most people around 1400 at the begining of the season; and as the season goes on they stretch out the bell curve higher and higher which puts the middle of the bell curve a bit higher and higher. The real problem with this system is that at the begining of the season pros and gladiators are just butt blasting 1500 players for months at a time (until blizzard stretches out the bell curve.)
Yup, which adds to the doom loop of fewer people pvping. FWIW a version of this is happening in M+, but for different reasons… The solutions are: 1) remove the bell curve, 2) get rid of static rating rewards, make it a dynamic points based or dynamic rank system, 3) squish the brackets so solo shuffle is the entry (with a buddy optional) until a specific rating range that’s quite low. Maybe I’m wrong but I’m trying here
I still haven't heard a coherent proposal for what this new matchmaking system is supposed to look like. A common thread I hear from those pushing for it is "MMR is bad" or "MMR needs to be scrapped altogether". What is the alternative to MMR? Rebranding challenger, rival, duelist, etc. to bronze, silver, gold doesn't have much of anyting to do with matchmaking.
Yeah, I wonder about this too. The core of a rating system will always be some form of MMR, which is to say, a number that increases when you win and decreases when you lose. Maybe they can make bands or add more dimension or speed up calibration with a different algorithm but in the end it's always going to come down to MMR. Maybe it would help if the system matched less precisely so you could get some easier games (at the expense of also getting stomped more) and more potential for dramatic upsets.
In league your MMR is account based so if u are diamond at the end of a season when a new season starts u will be high gold or low emerald and u will gain and lose LP at much higher rates until the game figures out where your level of play actually is it also helps stop smurfs if u are smurfing In low gold your going to get alot more LP then someone that is actually a gold player I'm sure a billion dollar company like blizz can figure it out it's there job fix problems and players job to expose problems
Major problem with elo in general is that it is not a normal distribution and often when it is it is a highly peaked one. If you would have a flat normal distribution for your rating system the progression in skill matches the progression in rating. How can it be that on the spectrum of rating 95% of the player base is below 50% of the distributed rating.
It's such a simple conversation. GIVE. PEOPLE. REWARDS. I don't care if its "free". Christ, people have been telling Venruki that forever, and he's always disagreed until recently.
you can't make your game for the elite, you have to make it for the masses. The harder something is the less people will want to do it. You make money from the masses
There have been attempts at recreating what is more or less wow pvp as a standalone game several times over the last two decades and it just always dies from lack of playerbase even when everyone who tries the games say they’re solid games at worst. Bloodline Champions is the most obvious one that comes to mind.
The masses aren't playing! I'm average rank sitting in an hour queue because there's no point! This video is not about the top players it's about everyone else.
At 10:00 you talk about how new people aren't coming into WoW PVP and that means the skillcap of the game just keeps going up because existing PVPers reinforce their skill against each other. I feel this League dev's talk of inflationary lower ranks would address part of that though; the constant progress and rewards from just "grinding it out" would bring in new players each season.
Its really important to placate the lower rank players. If they feel stuck and like theyre making no progress, they might just quit. This kills the overall playerbase and any new blood coming into the system. Now, you shouldnt inflate a 1500 player to 2400, but get them to 1800, let them get their elite set and catch the bug and feel like theyve accomplished something. Once they get invested in the game, they will start to do some research and actually become better. If you drive away the lower rank players, what happens is deflation across brackets. All youre left with is hardcore sweats, who stomp any newer players trying to get into the game because theres not enough lower rank/skill players for them to match against. These players get discouraged and leave. Rinse and repeat season after season until the playerbase is the same 50 people.
I always knew my rating was inflated year after year, but one of my buddies could never get his brain around it. This is so funny to me because for him this would be like a mind opening video, but for me it just proves what I’ve already known for years. Wait until the last 2-3 weeks to rank up get duelist and call it a day. Knowing that really my 2100 was an inflated 1800 rank
I don't understand why there's so much talk of the PvP rating system nowadays. This never used to be an issue in the past and IMO it's simply fixing a symptom of a greater issue, which is that WoW PvP simply is nowhere near as fun and as engaging as it used to be. I personally attribute it to how much WoW PvP has been dumbed down to the point it's become a matter of zerging each other rather than setting up anything meaningful. There's also an insane lack of outplay potential on a micro mechanics level. I remember watching Reckful's PvP videos from WotlK/Cata and even MoP and seeing all the unique shit he did and wanting to replicate it or at the least be inspired by it. You don't have that in modern WoW PvP anymore because of how much Blizzard has dumbed down and "streamlined" everything. This game needs more shit like SW:Ding Polymorphs/Blinds/etc. We need shit like being able to Intervene CC on your healer again. Stuff like that which makes you feel like a badass. Blizzard has gutted the playmake potential in modern day PvP. So no shit people barely want to play it if they've removed the very thing that drew people to it in the past. Also past expansions had people make PvP montage videos which were hype AF. Those things absolutely contributed to drawing in people, like you can't tell me if you've seen Hydra's videos you didn't get hyped the fuck up from his videos. Nowadays you don't have that anymore, at all. Partially because of modern PvP design and partially because content creators seem to not want to put this effort in anymore. I didn't need rewards to draw me into PvP. Trying to outplay opponents was the reward itself. The GAMEPLAY was the reward. But it no longer is. You can hang on as many dingleberries as you want, but that won't cover the fact that PvP is intrinsically ass nowadays and could be SO much more. Also on the topic of PvP gearing, they literally had the perfect system in Cata/MoP/WoD. Why the FUCK is it so difficult to get back to these systems. You let people play BGs and experience PvP in an open environment while gearing up, then they can do arena for the real reward. The fact that PvP gearing has become as convoluted of a mess (at least at face value) makes me not want to bother with it. Literally just have two tiers of PvP gear: BGs and Arena. It's not that difficult, one should hope at least.
Hmm, I'm not sure where you're getting the lack of outplay potential, but there is a ton of that still. PvP being dumbed down is anything but false. Do you remember when stopping CC with shadow word death as a priest was considered skilful? Now that is MANDATORY, just one example. Sometimes we get broken specs dominating for too long (DH in the entire DF or BM right now) which don't require anything but damage, but that has been the case always. CC is still incredibly meaningful, interrupting with the existence of precog in the game is a mini mindgame happening constantly, positioning is still as important as always. The game is anything but dumbed down as a whole. I suggest you try playing some specs that are more nuanced, any mage or druid spec, survival hunter, unholy DK, any healer (especially shaman or druid), enhancement shaman, outlaw or sub rogue, shadow priest, warlocks. Even playing solo shuffle or the new solo RBGs with something that offers more outplay potential is super fun. I promise you that you won't see success "zerging" with your brain off as what I listed here. The gearing situation looks complex, but it really isn't unless you want to be min maxing. You just get conquest and buy gear. Only extra steps are crafting with the free items you get and getting precog for casters. I don't think it's anything to be stressing about. You describe PvP as being "dumbed down" but gearing is somehow complex to you? Only thing I'd agree with is the lack of PvP montages, those used to be dope.
Dude you nailed this perfectly. I was a few spots away from gladiator back in 2009-2010. Stopped playing wow in Lich King. Came back 13 years later in season 2 dragonflight to a completely different game. Demon Hunters everywhere with micro CC. I stopped playing my mage just because it wasn't fun getting trained the ENTIRE game. I used to have a blast kiting and actually setting up kill sequences in 2v2 as you said. I did get 2.3k in that season but now I'm hardstuck 2k in 2s. I told a friend last night, I remember obtaining Arena Master title once I hit 2.2k in 5v5 back in 2009. I hate 3v3 gameplay on my resto druid now. I couldn't even FATHOM playing a 5v5 in the current state of the game. There's too much going on. Maybe I am being ignorant but after 15 years of playing this game, I still can't tell you what every class has in their talent tree, and honestly don't really care to. WOW is a game that is so frustrating at times, but yet.. here I am always coming back to it. Too bad you can't get gladiator in 2s.... The whole system needs a re-work to actually reward people that want to play the game.
You nailed it brotha. I was a MoP Main. I started pvp in Cata and fell in love with it so I went hard in MoP (didn’t play s12 or s13) but s14 and s15 I got 2.3k in 3’s and 2’s and was just shy of 2k in 5’s. I did this again in s1 and s2 of WoD just on different classes. Again 2.3k in 3’s I didn’t q 2’s as much and I think 5’s wasn’t in the game anymore. The game used to feel like you were outplaying other people when you won. Sure some seasons felt better than others but coming back to the game now off a 7 year break it feels like every class is just mash as many buttons as you can and pump dmg. Healers are unkillable and tanks are running rampant. I haven’t even jumped into ranked just my casual BG/Skirmish experience has made me realize I’m not renewing after this month sub is up. Hope they fix the game someday.
Imagine your a new to PVP and you decide to try the healing role, you've done a few dungeons and a few BGs were you feel like your immortal You then decide to delve into rated PVP, so queue a solo shuffle as a healer, and suddenly you are overwhelmed by everyone going ham, dampening is implemented and other variables - oh and the fact your FIRST solo shuffle game places you at 1.6-1.8k MMR ive played for a long time now, first lobby was 1.7k i went 5-1 and it put me straight into a 2k~ lobby, its not very friendly at all... but i will continue to try to love it :>
Inflation should exist in the mmrs below the xmog and enchant rewards and no inflation in the competitive brackets. Also I agree bring us bronze-diamond.
How can people still talk about xmog and enchant rewards, they are so low elo since BFA I could get them playong with 1 hand only and the sad part is i’m serious. I remember I had to have 2400rating to wear the blue one from wod and green one from legion it was decent but it’s a joke since.
I know warrior is a easy class, but Bajheeras guides in the end of shadowlands made me jump from 1500 to 1800 in Dragonflight. I feel as though with the proper macros, builds, and understanding it gets more ideal to play. And i feel as though, this is what should be made more easier and more accesible through either game design or more complete addons. Its like, just make the healer arena3 every single solo, so I dont have to change it all the time.
How would you feel about a separate game that hosted Arenas? Think of like plunder storm (edit: Not dif servers, i want a new game that blizzard actually markets to pvp communities) but it’s just Arenas, could be one v ones, could be team games, all with a brawlers guild like viewing system. Actually market it as a PVP game, and add a bunch of features and gearing systems. Completely untie balance from retail and make the game more like mop in the sense that 1v1s are balanced.
@@ttt69420 No sir, im suggesting a new game, one thats not directly tied to wow, As people have said, there is NOTHING like arena in any game. I want a game thats just wow pvp, there is no leveling traditionally, more like an honor rank to unlock new stuff, but wow arena mechanics, could be new classes, maybe just keep the same ones but change them by adding in old abilities, taking out bloat. and actually market it as a new competitive pvp game. It needs to be marketed towards to young crowd who wants instant pvp action.
I've been saying this for yeeears, they need to separate the mmorpg pve experience from PvP completely so they can balance both separately with different teams of blizzard staff.
Yeah they had this figured out a long time ago. I also know some online games actually use the same open ranking system, and guess what? The matchmaking is actually pretty good.
As someone who has PvP’d as their main gameplay loop on WoW since 2007 , I will say that the ratings and rankings value to me is completely based on the level of competition I am facing, and my ability to overcome the adversity of that competition. I know a lot of people are hung up on rewards and I’m not knocking that, but improving and getting past personal gameplay plateaus are way more rewarding to me than transmogs and titles. In fact, the most excitement I get playing PvP is in the deflated seasons, because you get to spar with glads and rank ones more often.
I believe we just need more consistency with the numerical rating system. It can be done for sure. Especially with the average PvPer being a long time player, a huge reason I a 20 year fan quit Halo was because bronze/silver/gold/etc ranking was added, I liked 1-50 much better. Simplifying fewer ranks with wide ranges of skill inside those ranks I believe will lead to less time investment and drive to push higher
I agree, I enjoy the numbers. Alongside the numbers we have the titles which are great as well. If there were enough colors or medals the represent like 10 brackets that would still be satisfying.
@ The first paragraph if you wrote is objectively incorrect. I clearly understood the system I played with for like 20+ years. I got placed in Gold/Onyx S1 in Week 1/2 and there was nothing to play for anymore. Boring with no 1-50 grind, can’t do that in 1-2 weeks even if you’re the best player in game. especially with the General rank in Halo 3 requiring experience and the 50. As for the 2nd paragraph I am aware they use MMR to match you up rather than your actual rank, it’s a bad system, but Microsoft triples down on SBMM in every game they publish/fund. The 1-50 ranks were more aesthetically pleasing to look at and motivating to grind for, they helped retention by offering multiple game modes to grind these ranks out for, and if you were a good player, you could beat up on less skilled players on the way up like you should. If you get good at the game, you should be able to thrive instead of some rigged matchmaking system telling you “it’s your turn to lose to some sweats since you won your last (few) game(s). Basically COD SBMM entered Halo. Hopefully we don’t see them scale down damage and require tighter accuracy windows like COD does when you are doing good and it’s your turn to lose in their communist SBMM system.
Ive very recently gotten into pvp on wow. Due to the ridiculous Que times I decided to go play heals and with only just a couple of battle grounds under my belt I decided I’d try out solo shuffle. And in my 2nd set of matches while in less than 500 mmr I was placed into a lobby where everyone is between 1950-2200 mmr. It completely killed my desire to want to heal solo shuffle.
Leagues rating system used to be ELO (CR) that equated to a material/color (silver, Gold, etc). I don't remember the exact number but for example if you hit 1600 you would be Gold, and if you hit 1800 you'd be Platinum, so it's probably not that hard to change wow's system to reflect that. The biggest difference with the tier system (silver, gold, etc) is that you have a little bit of leeway when you hit a new tier. For example if you reach gold, let's say 1600 CR, you can lose a few games without dropping out of gold. I believe it was probably originally added as an incentive to keep people playing and not sit on a rank because they were afraid of losing it.
That guy didn't mention season to season resets zzz. Although he did kinda touch of the same psychology of changing games and no longer being the rank you expect... kinda the same...
So they’ve created a rating system that is completely meaningless… to give people an illusion of progress, whilst dangling rewards on a stick just out of reach 😂… pure manipulation
Yes and do you know how they do this? manipulating the matchmaking system, you will have to carry this bad players to give him a imagination that they are improving, so riot will have to "shadow boost" players to keep them playing while fking the players that are playing at their deserved real elo nad have to hard carry boosted players. This is how a noob player can win 15/20 games of their game history by beeing hard carried 14 of that 15 games. This is why i just play 1 month a year o maybe 2 to take away my desire to play when im hyped
Yo man, can we get the links to these videos in the description? It's really just common courtesy, and I'd love to share the original among ppl for the sake of discussion.
Do keep in mind, the gearing system in MMORPGs does the exact same thing; the numbers go up and you FEEL as if you are improving regardless of changes in your skill. Now, in PvP this creates a new set of problems, since this is the gamemode where you want skill to be the determining factor in who wins. However, your average player would enjoy a system more in which they can start out getting stomped in random bgs, get gear, and then stomp on other players in random bgs that don't have the gear yet. ALL of it is an illusion and every game that requires lots of people needs those casual players. So in a way I have to agree with him; it's more about understanding human psychology than the game itself or what you or I think is ideal. Venruki is 100% correct in saying that WoW doesn't get new players, and this type of system (or the gearing up and then stomping on people without gear) REQUIRES new players or alts to keep funneling in. THIS is the core problem and why the rating system doesn't function anymore. So sure, I agree with you that the ranking system needs an overhaul, but that is a symptom of the problem that WoW PvP needs an overhaul. I'm struggling to think of another title that has that kind of revenue but so little development put into a large aspect of it. In 2017, it was $9.23 BILLION in revenue, meaning it is one of the highest grossing video game franchises of all time. At this point it is PATHETIC. Twenty years in, and one of the three roles doesn't have a role in PvP, even though a game like Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning laid down a solid blueprint for this back in 2008 that they could outright STEAL and players would think it was revolutionary. SWtOR solved every single problem WoW has with CC, DR categories, needing addons, certain comps working and others not as well, etc. with their resolve bar. Now, that game royally screwed it up and could never get it right, but they built a better mousetrap that should be the new standard.
Terrible dev only cares about player retention rather than player fulfillment.. Literally admitting in the video that they only do it cause everyone else does it. Just give them all cocaine, what could go wrong? Fake rating rewards are cheap tricks designed to fool players, not surprised it works for mobile gamers..
@@quizkill Except in WoW's case it's simply trying to fix the symptoms, not the underlying issue. Which is that WoW PvP is nowhere near as fun as it used to be. None of these issues that you hear of nowadays regarding rating inflation and all that bullcrap was an issue during MoP. Why? Because MoP PvP was inherently fun. Modern day WoW PvP isn't. I personally attribute it to a lack of play make potential. Over the years Blizzard removed so many ways you could subtly outplay and mindgame your opponents to the point it's become this sterile environment of doing the most DPS as humanly possible. WoW PvP needs more ways to outplay opponents on a micro play level. Things like deathing polymorph/blinds, like Intervening CC (which is no longer possible). That shit is what made WoW PvP fun.
I do agree with the dude, the problem with WoW inflation is its date gated rather then match played. With my own skill I can play 200 game early season and be hard stuck at 1800-1900. Or I could play 40-50 game in the last month and end with 2k. This is stupid.
I’ve played a bit of arena in Shadowlands and one season in Dragonflight. I’ve played more games of solo shuffle in TWW season 1 than in all other seasons combined though. I was always an 1800 player before. Never even hit 1900. In TWW season 1, I hit 2100 for the first time and it has felt very rewarding. I can’t help but wonder if that would have been 2400 or maybe even higher if I had instead chosen to commit this amount of time to arena in another season like season 1 of Dragonflight where MMR seems like it was super inflated in solo shuffle.
The answer lies on the surface. The player-versus-player game mode, where you compete against real humans, presents a unique challenge. Many people struggle even with minor conflicts, like arguing about a queue at Woolworths, let alone facing direct competition. The game simply aims to reward players for participating, which isn’t inherently bad. For those who dedicate eight hours playing and competing, it's likely a positive experience, and the growing player base is undeniably beneficial from any perspective.
I thought the point of rating inflation in WoW was to prevent people from getting super high CR week one and then logging off for the rest of the season and still getting rank 1.
I get where this philosophy is coming from, until recently I was a .2 k/d player in most competitive games I played. I had games that I enjoyed playing casually die to skill creep where the worst players would stop playing causing the pool of players to bottom out until only the top 10% could engage. The solution people usually ask for is to have tighter skill based match making to make games more balanced and fun but I felt the opposite effect where every match felt more like a battle where I would have my bad habits reinforced, and I would get frustrated for matching against players who seemed out of my "bracket". Coddling bad players doesn't help them, it makes them dependent on the very systems that are pushing them out. PvP should be allowed to be fun before fair, this is why I think that ranked or skill based matchmaking is a short term fix to a more pressing issue: that many games are trying to bring the dynamics of high level tournament play into casual matchmaking but in doing so tricks bad players into thinking they are better than they are and traps bad better players in unenjoyable matches.
the big difference is in LoL the main reward is for hitting gold. their version of the glad mount is at gold, past that is purely for the prestige. If all the rewards where at like 1600 then nobody would be complaining. its ok to make the rewards attainable for people and then make the apex tiers just a flex
To be honest, who will even consider a word of a RIOT employee about matchmaking. No disrespect for the dude but there is a reason why LoL is losing playerbase everyday. LoL matchmaking is one of the worst in the industry. Not saying that Blizzard matchmaking is perfect but is lightyears away from RIOT games which makes you feel like your time is worthless putting you in the same team with degenerates who do not value their time either.
Ranked LoL Solo Queue becoming popular and kinda the main way to play the game was the worst that could have had happen to the game and as we can see to the games in general as an outcome of how big LoL became. It baited/"forced" players into thinking/wanting to play something that maybe isnt the best choice for them and when enough of those players enter the system the whole system has to change. Well ... enough "participation award" players entered and Riot had to adjust the thing. Also there was a lot of business argumentation in August's answer as well for the reason why they had to do the changes. Ranked mode in any game should be the minority of the playerbase and in group oriented ones it should stick to full group queue ( if its a 5v5 game you need a team of 5 to play ranked, period ).
Yes back in 2014 was my first season of League Of Legends. I climbed from Bronze 5 to Diamond 5 in a single season. (top 2% roughly). I can tell you: that was a lot easier than the current state of getting Glad in wow arena right now. Thats how broken it is
I agree rating system needs an overhaul. For solo shuffle and and BG blitz it would work. But as far as 2s,3s etc. it would make finding a group through LFG even harder than it already is. For instance if you're 1600 some 1800 players will give u a try. If your silver and they're diamond, there's no chance that would happen. A big problem of that is the pvp community just feels so small but if there's was gonna be a rating system change, the whole que system and everything would need an overhaul. Could be a great idea and bring players into it with a way to interact with players of your similar skill instead of multi glads at 1800 (of course smurfing is always an issue) but yeah that's kind of my thoughts on it. Prolly one reason Blizz will never do it.
It’s clear that the game designers missed one critical thing: How all the classes interplay. It might be cool to have big “pop-off” cds with big explosions when you are out soloing mobs, but put that in a raid/bg/arena and it just becomes a huge mess. Just the bloat on the screen with 5 million pets and spell effects is enough to put me off. You should need a screen full of gui mods to be able to play it. This game had its peak in wrath. I know players want more stuff. I know they need to feel like their character evolves and get more powerful each expansion, but that will inevitably lead to ability inflation. They need to find other ways of achieving that.
He didn't say that the average player is at 2200. He said that the average players that are already at 2200 rating must have played a lot of seasons to have reached that rating
He is 100% correct , having played overwatch where 20-30% of your matches or more are much higher ranked players playing at bronze and silver , if overwatch had a system like,this you would move all that to gold, the real level this should all start and allow bronze and silver to progress . This guys is 100% correct. But it’s just human nature to keep people down , no matter how rich you are you and how much gold you have m you think it’s the guy with a few coppers or silvers is holding you back from platinum
I am an OG vanilla player. I still play retail pve but 0 pvp. None of these rating issues mean anything to me, but rather the gameplay itself. The only thing that will ever get me back to participating in pvp is the complete removal of active pvp talent abilities or a completely different abilities setup than pve. My bars are full and I cannot afford any more keybind space to abilities I will only use in certain environments. I refuse to move on this, it is a hard line.
I mean if they would do something about addons what percentage of the top 20% of WoW PvPers do not use any addons? That is a question they should attempt to answer. A survey would not provide ideal responses either because some users will not take it seriously or give deceitful responses.
StarCraft 2 had the league system with bronze, silver, gold, diamond etc before League of Legends. I can't say for sure if SC2 invented it or if there was other games with it, but it for sure wasn't LoL. Also, the early arena seasons where you started at 1500 rating, if you were an average player and had a 50% win ratio you would be hard stuck at 1700-1800 rating. If you were above average you would float around 1900-2000 and then it would go up from there. I don't remember which arena season it was, but somewhere the system got inflated where now if you just spam hundreds upon hundreds of games every season you will eventually be 2200 cause over time you gain more points than you lose
I been stuck at 2100-2400 for so long I usually give up before rhe end of the season to pursue irl stuff, I refuse to reroll too. I just wanna focus on my class/spec and play it to a high level but this kinda dev “theorycraft” pvp shit turns me away from the game
At this point I think WoW pvp needs an external consultant when it comes to rank & balance. I had a friend that never played the game try pvp so he started to play bgs for honor gear and was getting oneshotted byt everything. He quit 10mins later
This was my expireance as well but then I grinder through re rolled warrior got the full set of honor gear and I was 1 shotting and not even knowing what buttons I was pressing
@@arturk9181 I feel like I'm still a new player I started at the end of DF I came from eso where I exclusively played pvp it suffered alot of similar problems but on different levels
I miss the older heroes of the storm ranking system where you could climb at a somewhat slow pace but a single loss versus worse people wouldn't set you back a week.
I find the rating system overhaul idea so facinating. Every game that i'm aware of has static numbers for their Rating and their MMR. Being iron 1 in league just means you're between 0-99 rating, iron 2 is 100-199. Valorant same, overwatch afaik same. It's just hidden.
When titles were percentage based the 3600 vs 2400 didn't really matter that much? Wasn't the old system kinda perfect? On lower ratings people still got their progression curve by the end of the season, reinforced by like, getting a weapon at 1800 or shoulders at 2050.
It's a problem we KNOW there is inflation. I, for one, just play less early season because i am not reaching my transmog goals for my classes . I play a healer, and this system makes me queue less = less healers = longer dps queue... Good system
The dude is practically saying,that yes,you can actually be gladiator in 1 season and actually fail to do that on an other season. And that should be fine. BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT players expectations are that if you managed to do that one you should be ALWAYS be possible to do it,regardless of tuning,skill,class,spec,team or other irrelevant small details. Once a gladiator always a gladiator, and blizzard should make it easy for you to do that with your fresh reroll you have 10 hours played on. Because you know,you can ask a lot from players, but admitting that sometimes, it might actually be a skill issue, is not one of them. Edit: And just to give an example : When i was 25 i could hit gladiator with my eyes closed. I am not 25 now though,im 35, and even though im WAAAAAAAY more experienced in the game, the days i am not physically and/or mentally tired that would allow me to play on that level are far far far less than they used to. And simply forcing it cause i was able to do that in the past even when drunk af,does no longer work.
im confused, how on earth is this relevant to any of the current pvp issues that are being adressed? the issue isnt "humpty dumpty the game has gotten harder for somebody who hasnt progressed / hasnt played in a while" most people also know that just because you got shadowlands glad as ret or other fotm class/expansion comboes, doesnt mean you will get glad in other expansions. the main and singular most complained about thing, is the fact the mmr is capped so that you do in fact not play against gladiators at gladiator range, or rivals at rival range. you play against r1/tourny players at DUELIST range for the first month or so of a season, followed by facing r1 players at 2300-2400 for the next 3-4 months, and only at the very last month or so, do you actually see the mmr start to creep up - but at that point, the ladder is hardly active anymore due to people throwing in the white flag ages ago due to the frustrating mmr system. granted the system still has the flaw that 49% winratio and 5000 games will yield you a rating far above what you deserve, but it doesnt change the fact that you're stuck facing r1 players at ratings you shouldnt. only possible "fix" to this if they absolutely refuse to remove mmr capping, would be to make matchmaking more strict and decrease cutoff requirements, making rating work much like in TBC and earlier times, in which you would not climb much in points, but you didnt have to climb much to reach a prestigous title to begin with due to lower cutoff requirements
@@Exata1337 I assume you haven't watched the video,cause the dev literally explains that most ppl have quite the high the bar about their perceived skill level, and they also assume that their can only grow from there (while everyone else doesn't). As for how it connects? If you ever played on eu at any rank,you would stumble about this amazing oddity. Sub 500 kills accounts,at 2.2k,2.3K and 2.4k. We all know what those accounts are. They are literally disposable accounts,with some kind of botting usually involved, from ppl that try to see how far they can go without getting banned,or what will get them banned and what won't. We even had a 2.6k havoc dh back in df that was 100% botted. So let me ask you. Considering that at it's peak we had close to 10% of all active accounts in high mmr be something of the short,how would you treat something like that? I am quite positive that said bots can spend more time online than most people,and take advantage of the absense of an mmr cap. ruclips.net/video/jhygeA6tFu4/видео.html&ab_channel=Venruki here you go,some wow history :D EDIT: Oh yeah,let me add that ppl admitting to botting never happens. Ever. You just curiously see some names off the top of the list magically disappear at the end of the season. I am sure you never lost to any such account though. You are better than that :D Anyway to dump it down: Ppl have fragile egos. They like to win. Sometimes they go to great lengths to achieve that. And you will lose quite often to said bots. It doesn't matter if they get banned,you won't be getting your cr back. Having ppl actually play games,with said bots,and having them reported is what gets them banned. If the bot gets so far ahead in mmr that most ppl will never encounter it,well,gl getting it banned. And we have a happy bot user.
@@prestencederien im sorry, but what does anything you mentioned there, have to do with wow's rating system and the majority of current complaints? even the abundant kick/fakebotting and the r1 hunter/druid team being actual flyhackers for almost an entire season at a point was never the major complaint about pvp. i may be misinterpreting your comment, but i dont see how botting is relevant to what i pointed out, certainly not in any impactful way compared to the other major issues with the game (and FYI, i know botting, scripting and outright cheats exist and have existed since before arena even came out, but its nowhere near a big enough of an issue when talking about the current main issue with pvp) the mmr cap, or a lack of it, would not change the outcome of the scenario you're talking about, because like i mentioned, the "49% winratio with 5000 games" will still yield you a better result than fewers games with a higher winratio due to how w/l points are scaled, which is a system that pretty much scales proportionate with increased mmr, meaning if mmr is capped or not, doesnt matter. when we say "absense of mmr cap", it doesnt mean people will get 8k mmr if they play a lot while nobody else does. you are still going to be limited by the ladder's activity (unless we assume 2 bots wintrade forever, which would've landed the same result regardless of an mmr cap unless we introduce a 3rd bot wintrading, so once again, theres no changed benefits or drawbacks) - but even then, an easy fix to that unrealistic scenario, is to limit mmr to what has been the "realistic" cap - which is around 3-3.5, based on activity. having a progressively locked mmr in a game where more than half the players only play it for the cosmetic rewards or achievements, while that same system renders any games played before the last 10-20% of the season completely useless - doesnt aid the "illusion of progression" of which the entire system was made to create to begin with, since majority of the players who "play consistent and often and without rewards in mind" are the r1 players and tourny players anyways, not your average pvp andy
As a new player I've been playing since the end of DF I have alot of fun in pvp but it's hard to learn mostly because they que takes so long then u get into a match get destroyed in about 30 seconds then gotta wait 30 mins for another match it makes it frustratingly hard to learn also there are like 13 classes most having 3 specs DH has 2 and druid has 4 and about 30 buttons per class if u want to play optimal u need at least 3 or 4 add-ons then need to configure them In a semi real time scenario to ste them up with the information u need also need to level a character that's not bad now takes about a day then need to gear with also doesn't take long but your going to get destroyed if u are new and have no pvp gear then u need to get enchants embellishments and all the juice all while waiting a half hour between each match that lasts between 30 seconds to 3 mins and as a new player that all adds up to a frustrating expireance most successful pvp games have vary low skill floors and very high skill ceilings where as imo wow has a pretty rough barrier to entry
I'm a PvE andy since Shadowlands, but I enjoy competitive video games and am generally good at them, diamond or above in the ones I've spent time in. So I really want to get into wow PVP, I spend so much time on the game and I think the pacing of PVP would be much more to my liking. Here's my experience as a competent gamer and PvE wow player (warrior) trying rated PvP as it pertains to this video: - Gearing sucks. Not hard, but equally not rewarding during the grind. Big barrier to entry if you've never PvP'd before. - There's no sense of how good any rank is below Gladiator. If someone says they're Duelist that means absolutely nothing to me or any of my PvE friends. I don't have anything to shoot for because there's no point where I'm like "yay i'm diamond i'm good at the game" - I felt like my rank was too inflated. When you gain 1200 rating points for free, it's hard to judge your own improvement. I know Blizz doesn't want it to be hard to get your first PvP achievement, but if a rating scale starts at 0, it should feel like there are actually people who are just 500 rated players. Maybe that's just an issue with the size of the player base though. - Blizzard should build something like GladiusUI and OmniCD into the vanilla form of PvP. If they're gonna make the info available, casual players shouldn't need to go to a third party to see trinket timers, defensive cooldowns and auras, DRs, etc. This is probably the biggest barrier to entry for the most people. Needing to go to RUclips and reading through pages of UI settings before you can even play the real game is not a feasible system to grow the player base and legitimize the ranked system.
No that’s not why I engage in a competitive ladder. This dev is why ranked ladders are so unengaging in modern gaming. I literally don’t care about “improving”. I just want to play fair matches vs my peers where at the end of the season the amount of points I get from wins ranks me higher than the rest of those same peers.
I was fucked by matchmaking in BGB. I started a few weeks into the tier. I got 6 wins 0 losses, 1300 CR, 2k+ mmr and thrn I was matched with people that had over hundred games, 30% win ratio abd similar CR to mine. I lost a few games like that and now I get +- 15 rating per game. Doesn't really feel rewarding at all when you're not matched with equally skilled players and your mmr got eaten by that.
"the ranking system is designed the way it is because it more addictive this way, even if its not actually good design from players (who actually tries to improve and wish for fair balanced games with similar skill lvl of both teams) point of view"
Imagine a separate client for WoW pvp balanced purely for arenas. No gearing. No talents. No choice apart from the set spec. Only reward is earning ranks like in starcraft. You play because you love the game They could find a balance between wotlk/cata and retail pvp where it isn't as hard to watch as retail, make spells very clear and a ui that has all the info you need without a PhD in add ons/weakauras. At the same time it would be faster paced and still has dampening so there isn't long mana wars or 1 hour 2v2 matches like wotlk cata. Fine tune every spec so that it can be viable, and if some comps are too OP you get a debuff or have abilities nerves while in the comp only. Eg. RMP has less duration on sheep, or a longer DR to stop resets and waiting for the enemy team to have that window of nothing can be done and they lose. Make hit rating and resist rng nonexistent. Ranking systems based in how this dev explains where at lower brackets it inflates but higher is capped and proves who is the undisputed best. Blizz has so many versions of wow I don't see why not. Yes it would fragment the player base further but I can't remember the last pvper I've met who also likes to raid. We are a different audience altogether. I can dream
venruki hear me out… why do they do this but have such frequent flavor of the month class tuning? the flavor of the month combined with mmr inflation effect really discourages highly skilled players.. it kinda forces us to step into the time dedication level of the professional players. we cannot all be professional players, we leave that to you bro!
As a casual WoW player, I never liked rated PvP of any kind. The focus on rated play isn't good for me; it just ensured I wouldn't PvP at all. From my point of view, ratings are a system designed to tell the casuals they suck. How could this be expected to attract and retain such players? And without the casuals as cannonfodder, how are the better players to enjoy themselves? The lesser of those good players will now find themselves at the bottom of the residual pyramid, and so on as PvP bleeds away.
One big reason why the MMR in Solo Shuffle during Dragonflight was significantly higher than in 2v2 or 3v3, is the same reason why the current MMR in Blitz is much higher than in Solo Shuffle, 2v2, and 3v3. The designers need to justify their decisions and demonstrate success to their superiors and economists, who often lack an in-depth understanding of World of Warcraft. By manipulating player flow through inflated MMR, they are able to present their work in a more favorable light.
@@codyp2808 There is definitely enough evidence. Why is the MMR in Blitz 1k higher than in Solo Shuttle, even though, according to Check PvP, they are played about equally often? Why has it historically always been the case that the new game mode is about 1k rating higher?
@@codyp2808 Why is the MMR in TWW Solo Shuffle lower than in 3s, even though there are still ten times more games played in Solo Shuffle than in 3s? It's the same ratio as in Dragonflight. IT should be as much higher as in dragonflight
Alot of people forget that most people who play games are not intense like us. Rank isn't pro play, its a taste of it. Im not saying to throw your games, but there's no reason to demoralize someone who gets to play 1/4 of time we do. Unfortunately, rank has been imbedded into gaming culture and even casual gamers take part. I don't think its a big deal that the lower ranks are inflated and to be honest, in most games, after silver its all about skill difference and the gap obviously narrows the higher rank you are. I don't know how wow's mmr system these days, but i think most games do a decent job. Not that things can't be improved
This is the story the rat letting the smaller rat win sometimes so he keeps playing. This is great for player retention, but awful for a non-toxic environment.
My highest 2s rating ever was last season at 1907. My friend and I are fighting double multi glads / duelists and a few double rank 1s sub 1650 this season. I like fighting better players to improve but this system will not bring new players in. I also have no business playing these people despite what inflation there is.
and guess what those players get to inflate their ego by getting free wins. imagine they had to play glads every match which they don't... they just pad stats and wins on low rank players and think they are good
The problem with wow is that it first deflates and then inflates, so even if you DO get better you probably won't get to the rating you belong. i've been consistently hitting 2100 every season with not much effort but this season i spent the first month getting destroyed by multi glads and awc players at 1600 until i just quit the game. Are you telling me i'm not really a duelist but just had it handed to me every single season? OK even if that's the case, but if that's so it then means AWC players dont belong in glad either because no one even reached 2.4k when i quit. This is the problem with wow, not only doesn't introduce inflation at a good phase but it also artificially keeps you down until the devs decide its ok to allow you to climb, which is nuts.
I know Ven is being a bit tongue in cheek with his "oh my god we're all being conditioned to just win for free", but the example the Riot guy gave was really bad. If WoW wants new players they need to encourage people to give it a try and not immediately quit. Hard stopping them early before they even start learning the nuances of the game is just counterproductive.
A rank system isn’t supposed to have players feel good. It’s supposed to give you an accurate reflection of how good you are at a game in relation to all of the other players. WTF is going on?
You cannot fix wow's ranking system with its increadibly low player base. Need more players to play or the ladder is conflated in very stupid and artificial ways.
They have this system because means more money if you give easy rewards for wins. If new players try game and they got feeling that they are not improving they lose cash, literally...
Hate to break it to you, but this happens in irl too. participation awards, anyone who isn't educated expecting things in comparison to people who are. business owners who take risk and climbing to the top before starting their own.
I thought the inflation was due to the better players stopped playing because they met their goal and because the worse players are continuing to play the player base overall isn't as competitive.
tww was the first expansion since mop that i got really into and then the second i started pvping i realized bad pvp is atm 😔 haven’t touched it in months now
I think WoW got the MMR system right. Games felt close when you were at "your" correct MMR. In LoL, the games are lopsided and the mmr is clearly not working properly. You can be Diamond in solo queue and bronze in Flex queue.... and therefore, you face other bronze players in flex. Like, how is that fair? Both games have insane design problems. Mages and rogues have simply been too overpowered since 2004, and Blizz never really hit the brake on them. Always relevant, always strong, always top tier. In LoL they care way too much about win % to the point they still let some champions have broken kits. So skilled players who play a broken champion will wreck the game, and bad players will reach that 50% winrate they aim for, even though the design is flawed and overtuned to begin with. But Riot is actually trying to balance ALL chmpions towards that 50% and it's a actually refreshing to see, the meta is everchanging. In WoW, you you NEVER go wrong with classes like mage, rogue or warlock. I haven't plated WoW since Legion, but I know this is correpct. Don't tell me RMP is bad.
For me the rating depends on the game. I was just as happy when i hit diamond in rocket league than i was hitting masters on OW and glad in WoW. It was really hard for me to get out of platinum in rocket league when i first played so i appreciated the diamond more than i would in other games.
Alright so 1500 player gets inflated al the way up to 1800 after that inflation should stop and it should be about skill. I can live with that. People that want the armor set can get it by playing, after that you need to improve in my opinion. Also if I get 2400 rating previous season I should be able to get it now and immediately right at the start if my skill is the same.
This is a huge problem in league sepcifically now though. There are some absolute dogshit players at higher ranks. They are insanely bad but boosted because of this system. It makes it impossible to carry them
I liked DF ssn 4 because they didn't reset mmr. Everyone started on their mmr from ssn 3, so everyone was where they belong. Also R1 was around 3.2k CR in SS at the end of the ssn, so it wasn't overinflated. This is easyer solution and they can implement it next ssn. Or another not so hard solution could be an auto-inflating formula that would be driven by the number of active players in a given bracket and how high their ratings are.
The skill gap between someone who's played even 1 season and a brand new player is massive, let alone someone who's been pvp'ing in wow for years. This may not be what people want to hear, but I don't think WoW's pvp system can be fixed. It's a club now and you are either in or you are out. I tried to bring two family members in last year, first game we destroyed (predictably) and they will never touch ranked pvp again. Sad thing is they love BG's, but nobody likes getting their teeth kicked in at the front door.
Don't forget there's $15/month subscription for getting ignored by 6 pvp interns at Blizz
It do be feeling that way
6? Don't be ridiculous
The problem is that the top players are barely 2300-2400 for months until the end of the season where they go to around 2.8-3k. In shadowlands they ended up at 3500-3600. Why not make those ratings possible from the start of the season. Having the r1/glads playing at these low ratings really frustrates the low players which a big chunk of them quit throughout the season and makes the overall ladder worst.
Exactly. No mmr reset from the previous season
a part of the problem is mmr isnt being injected because people are simply not playing.
mmr cant go up if games are played for it to increase
People need to accept that Blizzard did this to purposely shrink pvp player base and eventually get rid all of them
@@dylan-z8w4t yes it can, they just need to make te inflation dynamic based on the amount of games played. As much games as expected? Good. To less games? Inflate more. That is coded in a day.
Perfect! Man, that would be great for the vast majority of players. The only negative point for Blizzard is that they would have to create new attractions to keep players playing.
A complete system redesign is required for WOW PVP
@@Cloax and if we revolt, via stop playing, they'll just say "oh well, toss it in the bin"
A few ideas that they could literally steal from other games and it would revitalize WoW PvP:
1. Tanks having an actual role because FFS it's been 20 years now and you've never gotten around to making one of the three roles useful. Look at Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning for ideas. The big one is that they do less damage but a percentage of damage done to teammates close to them are taken by them. Think of all of the spells that are really important in PvE but not in PvP and give them functions when used against players, and then balance around that. Set bonuses on PvP gear for tanks could be added that allow them to reduce incoming damage around them to teammates. There are a million ways to do it, but provided these effects do not stack you don't have to worry about compositions AND you fix the cluster F%@# of arenas trading so many defensive CDs that you can't get DPS to use in PvE; you don't need it anymore.
2. All the problems with CC, DR categories, needing addons to PvP, daunting for new players, some comps being godlike and others not so good, etc. can all be solved by using a "resolve bar" system like SWtOR did. Sure, that game messed it up and didn't listen to player feedback, but they built a better mousetrap. Best of all, each individual spell can effect the bar more or less, so now devs have a surgical tookit instead of a nerf hammer that has ZERO impact on PvE. You have zero concern with how much CC is out there because the bar solves for both how long any given CC chain can last AND the overall percentage of time spent in CC while doing PvP.
None of this is rocket science. Combined with a revamp of the ranking system and a new reward system, this would change EVERYTHING.
pvp is genuinely the gimmick minigame now. would be waste of resources
the whole game needs a reset. cool if top 5% of playerbase enjoy seasonal resets and all the shit, but WoW will never be able to compete with real PvP games, it's an MMO (not anymore tbh but u get the point) and MMO's arent made for esports
@@bigcucumber1233, sure, but only because they hardly ever give it any resources and development time, and they don't consider the impact of class changes on PvP. Why would people continue to play it if the devs don't care about it?
I'm a relatively new WoW PVP'er. I started PVPing in Shadowlands and it felt like EVERYONE was Gladiator and I couldn't even get into LFG groups because "LF Gladiator XP BM Hunter" and that wasn't me. When Solo Shuffle was introduced it actually allowed me to play rated PVP and it was cool, but similarly I couldn't really play much due to DPS queue's being 20 minutes. So I decided to heal, which is exponentially harder than DPSing. I've peaked at 1800, but it feels like I haven't really improved. I still use Vuhdo like I do in PVE, because I'm so used to it.
TLDR: The barrier to entry is SO high to even start playing PVP in WoW, that's it's almost impossible.
To clarify: I don't think PVP gearing is a problem, in fact it's pretty easy. By barrier of entry, I'm referring to the knowledge and experience that you are expected to have to even ATTEMPT to play LFG 2's or 3's.
nice dude ive played wow since 2007 and it took from 2007 to warlords for me to get my first 1800.
If you can do high m+ keys and raid mythic you can become an exceptional player in pvp, same for pvprs, if youre high xp youl do great in pve too, its all about trading cooldowns properly specially as a healer
The barrier to entry isn't high at all. The gear is basically free and all you have to do is queue. If you want gladiator handed to you, you're playing the wrong game. Gladiator used to be top 3% in the entire region it's only recently that it was linked to an arbitrary rating.
@@ttt69420 why are you discussing that? This is this players experiance. Its nothing to debate. This is the issue, you can have your opinions but numbers doesnt lie my friend. Pvp in wow in war within is as dead as it has been ever. That part of the game hase died. I saw the activity numbers and it just that. You have to many boosters and glad tghat play in 1500-2400 that should be above 2800 all of them and not under. This is the main issue, because being good at wow probably cannot have you have another job or income so have to become a booster. Since you pay gametime with gold that has becomen wrosen. They have to boost be able to even play.
@@ttt69420 The barrier of entry is not about gear though? The barrier of entry is about so much more. Playing pvp for the first few months feels like trying to learn driving for the first time, except instead of a car you need to learn on a plane.
The guy says he plays healer, so he has to know his class, he has to have match up knowledge, he has to monitor team health bars, enemy cast bars to avoid CC, mind his positioning, be aware of team's positioning so he doesn't lose LOS, be aware of enemy positioning so he doesn't get CC'd easily or so he can apply his own CC, be aware of his CDs... and let's not even get started on interface and addon related issues for beginners.
This is what "barrier of entry" ACTUALLY means.
It wouldnt matter for wow if its numbers or metals, or diamonds or whatever.
The wow actual ranking problem is that it just fluctuates enormously between seasons and makes you "RANK" (whatever name) means nothing.
There's a bajillion ppl with glad who got it in a super inflated season and cant even break 2k nowadays.
If you rebuild the system and rename Gladiator to Diamond...it wont matter in 2 or 3 seasons if it keeps getting this type of fluctuations.
This is only a problem from DF onwards. In all other expansions titles were percentile based.
What is the difference between calling it gladiator and diamond? Cause I don’t think it makes any
@@martinolivares1567 There is no difference. The number is meaningless. All that matters is percentile. Gladiator used to be top 3% regardless of how inflated or deflated the season was. I swear blizzard are morons.
@@ttt69420 ur both wrong about titles btw. Glad was top 0.5% not 3% every season until Bfa S1 not DF and R1 is top 0.1%. and I also agree that changing the system wont matter much in a game that based around balance and tuning for the lower tier players
He didn't answer anything... Like for an example, if a season lasts 6 months and has inflation, what is the point of playing for the first 4-5 months?
The competition.
Why do you think Liquid went through hell and back to kill Mythic Queen Ansurek first?
Also, having new rewards & cosmetics before everyone else does...is a luxury only good players can afford.
If you played league of legends you would understand lol.
Because you have to put in a lot of games to climb. So for instance, if you do what most players do where they do placements and a few games after and then stop for the season, your rank is much lower than it would be otherwise lol.
@@aleksanderdorkov5312 To get better..? Like why are you even playing this game? Do you pay $15 to log in and get free shit? Go play a single player game.
Your mindset is exactly what blizzard is catering to and killing this game. Sad.
The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is a fundamental flaw and a mindset that the player base needs to change.
Why do people play golf, tennis or do swimming? Because it's fun. If you don't enjoy it don't play. You won't get better if you don't practise. Practise makes progress.
I like the League dev's view. There should be inflationary rank increase at the lower levels, and then "real prestige" ranks at some arbitrary higher rank where the inflation stops. The inflation and constant progress feels good when you're just starting out, you want rewards and to feel like you're making constant progress.
This isn't what's happening in wow though. There were pro, yea PROFESSIONAL WOW PLAYERS, stuck at 2k rating for what? 2 months before blizz started MMR inflation. That means the average gladiator was STUCK at 1700 - 1800 for 2 fkn months. Whatever blizzard is doing, it's not what he's describing.
Edit: From what I can tell blizz has some kind of algorithm that controls the "bell curve" of rating. If they squish the the bell curve from 0 - 1800 it throws most people around 1400 at the begining of the season; and as the season goes on they stretch out the bell curve higher and higher which puts the middle of the bell curve a bit higher and higher. The real problem with this system is that at the begining of the season pros and gladiators are just butt blasting 1500 players for months at a time (until blizzard stretches out the bell curve.)
Yup, which adds to the doom loop of fewer people pvping. FWIW a version of this is happening in M+, but for different reasons…
The solutions are: 1) remove the bell curve, 2) get rid of static rating rewards, make it a dynamic points based or dynamic rank system, 3) squish the brackets so solo shuffle is the entry (with a buddy optional) until a specific rating range that’s quite low.
Maybe I’m wrong but I’m trying here
I still haven't heard a coherent proposal for what this new matchmaking system is supposed to look like. A common thread I hear from those pushing for it is "MMR is bad" or "MMR needs to be scrapped altogether". What is the alternative to MMR? Rebranding challenger, rival, duelist, etc. to bronze, silver, gold doesn't have much of anyting to do with matchmaking.
Yeah, I wonder about this too. The core of a rating system will always be some form of MMR, which is to say, a number that increases when you win and decreases when you lose.
Maybe they can make bands or add more dimension or speed up calibration with a different algorithm but in the end it's always going to come down to MMR.
Maybe it would help if the system matched less precisely so you could get some easier games (at the expense of also getting stomped more) and more potential for dramatic upsets.
In league your MMR is account based so if u are diamond at the end of a season when a new season starts u will be high gold or low emerald and u will gain and lose LP at much higher rates until the game figures out where your level of play actually is it also helps stop smurfs if u are smurfing In low gold your going to get alot more LP then someone that is actually a gold player I'm sure a billion dollar company like blizz can figure it out it's there job fix problems and players job to expose problems
Major problem with elo in general is that it is not a normal distribution and often when it is it is a highly peaked one. If you would have a flat normal distribution for your rating system the progression in skill matches the progression in rating. How can it be that on the spectrum of rating 95% of the player base is below 50% of the distributed rating.
It's such a simple conversation. GIVE. PEOPLE. REWARDS. I don't care if its "free". Christ, people have been telling Venruki that forever, and he's always disagreed until recently.
you can't make your game for the elite, you have to make it for the masses. The harder something is the less people will want to do it. You make money from the masses
There have been attempts at recreating what is more or less wow pvp as a standalone game several times over the last two decades and it just always dies from lack of playerbase even when everyone who tries the games say they’re solid games at worst. Bloodline Champions is the most obvious one that comes to mind.
The masses aren't playing! I'm average rank sitting in an hour queue because there's no point! This video is not about the top players it's about everyone else.
At 10:00 you talk about how new people aren't coming into WoW PVP and that means the skillcap of the game just keeps going up because existing PVPers reinforce their skill against each other. I feel this League dev's talk of inflationary lower ranks would address part of that though; the constant progress and rewards from just "grinding it out" would bring in new players each season.
Its really important to placate the lower rank players. If they feel stuck and like theyre making no progress, they might just quit. This kills the overall playerbase and any new blood coming into the system. Now, you shouldnt inflate a 1500 player to 2400, but get them to 1800, let them get their elite set and catch the bug and feel like theyve accomplished something. Once they get invested in the game, they will start to do some research and actually become better. If you drive away the lower rank players, what happens is deflation across brackets. All youre left with is hardcore sweats, who stomp any newer players trying to get into the game because theres not enough lower rank/skill players for them to match against. These players get discouraged and leave. Rinse and repeat season after season until the playerbase is the same 50 people.
I always knew my rating was inflated year after year, but one of my buddies could never get his brain around it. This is so funny to me because for him this would be like a mind opening video, but for me it just proves what I’ve already known for years. Wait until the last 2-3 weeks to rank up get duelist and call it a day. Knowing that really my 2100 was an inflated 1800 rank
I don't understand why there's so much talk of the PvP rating system nowadays. This never used to be an issue in the past and IMO it's simply fixing a symptom of a greater issue, which is that WoW PvP simply is nowhere near as fun and as engaging as it used to be.
I personally attribute it to how much WoW PvP has been dumbed down to the point it's become a matter of zerging each other rather than setting up anything meaningful. There's also an insane lack of outplay potential on a micro mechanics level. I remember watching Reckful's PvP videos from WotlK/Cata and even MoP and seeing all the unique shit he did and wanting to replicate it or at the least be inspired by it. You don't have that in modern WoW PvP anymore because of how much Blizzard has dumbed down and "streamlined" everything. This game needs more shit like SW:Ding Polymorphs/Blinds/etc. We need shit like being able to Intervene CC on your healer again. Stuff like that which makes you feel like a badass.
Blizzard has gutted the playmake potential in modern day PvP. So no shit people barely want to play it if they've removed the very thing that drew people to it in the past.
Also past expansions had people make PvP montage videos which were hype AF. Those things absolutely contributed to drawing in people, like you can't tell me if you've seen Hydra's videos you didn't get hyped the fuck up from his videos. Nowadays you don't have that anymore, at all. Partially because of modern PvP design and partially because content creators seem to not want to put this effort in anymore.
I didn't need rewards to draw me into PvP. Trying to outplay opponents was the reward itself. The GAMEPLAY was the reward. But it no longer is. You can hang on as many dingleberries as you want, but that won't cover the fact that PvP is intrinsically ass nowadays and could be SO much more.
Also on the topic of PvP gearing, they literally had the perfect system in Cata/MoP/WoD. Why the FUCK is it so difficult to get back to these systems. You let people play BGs and experience PvP in an open environment while gearing up, then they can do arena for the real reward. The fact that PvP gearing has become as convoluted of a mess (at least at face value) makes me not want to bother with it. Literally just have two tiers of PvP gear: BGs and Arena. It's not that difficult, one should hope at least.
you cant zerg to win in current wow pvp xD try dh u always twice the dmg of others and u always lose
cc classes dominate pvp not dmg
@@Raikenden1 bro you know what he's talking about. He's right,
Hmm, I'm not sure where you're getting the lack of outplay potential, but there is a ton of that still. PvP being dumbed down is anything but false. Do you remember when stopping CC with shadow word death as a priest was considered skilful? Now that is MANDATORY, just one example. Sometimes we get broken specs dominating for too long (DH in the entire DF or BM right now) which don't require anything but damage, but that has been the case always. CC is still incredibly meaningful, interrupting with the existence of precog in the game is a mini mindgame happening constantly, positioning is still as important as always. The game is anything but dumbed down as a whole.
I suggest you try playing some specs that are more nuanced, any mage or druid spec, survival hunter, unholy DK, any healer (especially shaman or druid), enhancement shaman, outlaw or sub rogue, shadow priest, warlocks. Even playing solo shuffle or the new solo RBGs with something that offers more outplay potential is super fun. I promise you that you won't see success "zerging" with your brain off as what I listed here.
The gearing situation looks complex, but it really isn't unless you want to be min maxing. You just get conquest and buy gear. Only extra steps are crafting with the free items you get and getting precog for casters. I don't think it's anything to be stressing about. You describe PvP as being "dumbed down" but gearing is somehow complex to you?
Only thing I'd agree with is the lack of PvP montages, those used to be dope.
Dude you nailed this perfectly. I was a few spots away from gladiator back in 2009-2010. Stopped playing wow in Lich King. Came back 13 years later in season 2 dragonflight to a completely different game. Demon Hunters everywhere with micro CC. I stopped playing my mage just because it wasn't fun getting trained the ENTIRE game. I used to have a blast kiting and actually setting up kill sequences in 2v2 as you said. I did get 2.3k in that season but now I'm hardstuck 2k in 2s.
I told a friend last night, I remember obtaining Arena Master title once I hit 2.2k in 5v5 back in 2009. I hate 3v3 gameplay on my resto druid now. I couldn't even FATHOM playing a 5v5 in the current state of the game. There's too much going on. Maybe I am being ignorant but after 15 years of playing this game, I still can't tell you what every class has in their talent tree, and honestly don't really care to. WOW is a game that is so frustrating at times, but yet.. here I am always coming back to it. Too bad you can't get gladiator in 2s....
The whole system needs a re-work to actually reward people that want to play the game.
You nailed it brotha. I was a MoP Main. I started pvp in Cata and fell in love with it so I went hard in MoP (didn’t play s12 or s13) but s14 and s15 I got 2.3k in 3’s and 2’s and was just shy of 2k in 5’s. I did this again in s1 and s2 of WoD just on different classes. Again 2.3k in 3’s I didn’t q 2’s as much and I think 5’s wasn’t in the game anymore. The game used to feel like you were outplaying other people when you won. Sure some seasons felt better than others but coming back to the game now off a 7 year break it feels like every class is just mash as many buttons as you can and pump dmg. Healers are unkillable and tanks are running rampant. I haven’t even jumped into ranked just my casual BG/Skirmish experience has made me realize I’m not renewing after this month sub is up. Hope they fix the game someday.
Imagine your a new to PVP and you decide to try the healing role, you've done a few dungeons and a few BGs were you feel like your immortal
You then decide to delve into rated PVP, so queue a solo shuffle as a healer, and suddenly you are overwhelmed by everyone going ham, dampening is implemented and other variables - oh and the fact your FIRST solo shuffle game places you at 1.6-1.8k MMR
ive played for a long time now, first lobby was 1.7k i went 5-1 and it put me straight into a 2k~ lobby, its not very friendly at all... but i will continue to try to love it :>
Inflation should exist in the mmrs below the xmog and enchant rewards and no inflation in the competitive brackets. Also I agree bring us bronze-diamond.
How can people still talk about xmog and enchant rewards, they are so low elo since BFA I could get them playong with 1 hand only and the sad part is i’m serious. I remember I had to have 2400rating to wear the blue one from wod and green one from legion it was decent but it’s a joke since.
@@Deyz17 Thats your perspective (and its important). I'm advocating for the inflation for all the players that aren't able to get 2400 with 1 hand.
@@Deyz17damn ur so good and cool :O
I know warrior is a easy class, but Bajheeras guides in the end of shadowlands made me jump from 1500 to 1800 in Dragonflight. I feel as though with the proper macros, builds, and understanding it gets more ideal to play. And i feel as though, this is what should be made more easier and more accesible through either game design or more complete addons. Its like, just make the healer arena3 every single solo, so I dont have to change it all the time.
How would you feel about a separate game that hosted Arenas? Think of like plunder storm (edit: Not dif servers, i want a new game that blizzard actually markets to pvp communities) but it’s just Arenas, could be one v ones, could be team games, all with a brawlers guild like viewing system. Actually market it as a PVP game, and add a bunch of features and gearing systems. Completely untie balance from retail and make the game more like mop in the sense that 1v1s are balanced.
The WoW pvp community has asked for pvp servers for as long as I can remember. Like since wrath.
@@ttt69420 No sir, im suggesting a new game, one thats not directly tied to wow, As people have said, there is NOTHING like arena in any game. I want a game thats just wow pvp, there is no leveling traditionally, more like an honor rank to unlock new stuff, but wow arena mechanics, could be new classes, maybe just keep the same ones but change them by adding in old abilities, taking out bloat. and actually market it as a new competitive pvp game. It needs to be marketed towards to young crowd who wants instant pvp action.
I've been saying this for yeeears, they need to separate the mmorpg pve experience from PvP completely so they can balance both separately with different teams of blizzard staff.
Chess elo system: "Am I some kind of joke to you?"
Yeah they had this figured out a long time ago. I also know some online games actually use the same open ranking system, and guess what? The matchmaking is actually pretty good.
Retail WoW PvP needs a complete overhaul in terms of rewards, titles, achievements as well as this shit MMR system as well. Period.
I’m brand new this season and it is hard and getting pvp gear past honor seems difficult to understand
As someone who has PvP’d as their main gameplay loop on WoW since 2007 , I will say that the ratings and rankings value to me is completely based on the level of competition I am facing, and my ability to overcome the adversity of that competition. I know a lot of people are hung up on rewards and I’m not knocking that, but improving and getting past personal gameplay plateaus are way more rewarding to me than transmogs and titles. In fact, the most excitement I get playing PvP is in the deflated seasons, because you get to spar with glads and rank ones more often.
I believe we just need more consistency with the numerical rating system. It can be done for sure. Especially with the average PvPer being a long time player, a huge reason I a 20 year fan quit Halo was because bronze/silver/gold/etc ranking was added, I liked 1-50 much better.
Simplifying fewer ranks with wide ranges of skill inside those ranks I believe will lead to less time investment and drive to push higher
I agree, I enjoy the numbers. Alongside the numbers we have the titles which are great as well. If there were enough colors or medals the represent like 10 brackets that would still be satisfying.
@ The first paragraph if you wrote is objectively incorrect. I clearly understood the system I played with for like 20+ years. I got placed in Gold/Onyx S1 in Week 1/2 and there was nothing to play for anymore. Boring with no 1-50 grind, can’t do that in 1-2 weeks even if you’re the best player in game. especially with the General rank in Halo 3 requiring experience and the 50.
As for the 2nd paragraph I am aware they use MMR to match you up rather than your actual rank, it’s a bad system, but Microsoft triples down on SBMM in every game they publish/fund.
The 1-50 ranks were more aesthetically pleasing to look at and motivating to grind for, they helped retention by offering multiple game modes to grind these ranks out for, and if you were a good player, you could beat up on less skilled players on the way up like you should. If you get good at the game, you should be able to thrive instead of some rigged matchmaking system telling you “it’s your turn to lose to some sweats since you won your last (few) game(s).
Basically COD SBMM entered Halo. Hopefully we don’t see them scale down damage and require tighter accuracy windows like COD does when you are doing good and it’s your turn to lose in their communist SBMM system.
Whatever system keeps the 3k player's alts out of 1800 games is what they should go with.
Ive very recently gotten into pvp on wow. Due to the ridiculous Que times I decided to go play heals and with only just a couple of battle grounds under my belt I decided I’d try out solo shuffle. And in my 2nd set of matches while in less than 500 mmr I was placed into a lobby where everyone is between 1950-2200 mmr. It completely killed my desire to want to heal solo shuffle.
I consider myself a casual player.. I see Blizzard fucking with the MMR and I stop fucking playing. Sorry I'm pissed
Leagues rating system used to be ELO (CR) that equated to a material/color (silver, Gold, etc). I don't remember the exact number but for example if you hit 1600 you would be Gold, and if you hit 1800 you'd be Platinum, so it's probably not that hard to change wow's system to reflect that. The biggest difference with the tier system (silver, gold, etc) is that you have a little bit of leeway when you hit a new tier. For example if you reach gold, let's say 1600 CR, you can lose a few games without dropping out of gold. I believe it was probably originally added as an incentive to keep people playing and not sit on a rank because they were afraid of losing it.
That guy didn't mention season to season resets zzz. Although he did kinda touch of the same psychology of changing games and no longer being the rank you expect... kinda the same...
Then i must be weird cuz i wanna know exactly how good or bad i am from start to finish
So they’ve created a rating system that is completely meaningless… to give people an illusion of progress, whilst dangling rewards on a stick just out of reach 😂… pure manipulation
But everybody is doing it so i have to. Literally abuse
Yes and do you know how they do this? manipulating the matchmaking system, you will have to carry this bad players to give him a imagination that they are improving, so riot will have to "shadow boost" players to keep them playing while fking the players that are playing at their deserved real elo nad have to hard carry boosted players. This is how a noob player can win 15/20 games of their game history by beeing hard carried 14 of that 15 games. This is why i just play 1 month a year o maybe 2 to take away my desire to play when im hyped
Yo man, can we get the links to these videos in the description?
It's really just common courtesy, and I'd love to share the original among ppl for the sake of discussion.
Do keep in mind, the gearing system in MMORPGs does the exact same thing; the numbers go up and you FEEL as if you are improving regardless of changes in your skill. Now, in PvP this creates a new set of problems, since this is the gamemode where you want skill to be the determining factor in who wins. However, your average player would enjoy a system more in which they can start out getting stomped in random bgs, get gear, and then stomp on other players in random bgs that don't have the gear yet. ALL of it is an illusion and every game that requires lots of people needs those casual players.
So in a way I have to agree with him; it's more about understanding human psychology than the game itself or what you or I think is ideal. Venruki is 100% correct in saying that WoW doesn't get new players, and this type of system (or the gearing up and then stomping on people without gear) REQUIRES new players or alts to keep funneling in. THIS is the core problem and why the rating system doesn't function anymore. So sure, I agree with you that the ranking system needs an overhaul, but that is a symptom of the problem that WoW PvP needs an overhaul.
I'm struggling to think of another title that has that kind of revenue but so little development put into a large aspect of it. In 2017, it was $9.23 BILLION in revenue, meaning it is one of the highest grossing video game franchises of all time. At this point it is PATHETIC. Twenty years in, and one of the three roles doesn't have a role in PvP, even though a game like Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning laid down a solid blueprint for this back in 2008 that they could outright STEAL and players would think it was revolutionary. SWtOR solved every single problem WoW has with CC, DR categories, needing addons, certain comps working and others not as well, etc. with their resolve bar. Now, that game royally screwed it up and could never get it right, but they built a better mousetrap that should be the new standard.
Terrible dev only cares about player retention rather than player fulfillment..
Literally admitting in the video that they only do it cause everyone else does it.
Just give them all cocaine, what could go wrong?
Fake rating rewards are cheap tricks designed to fool players, not surprised it works for mobile gamers..
And the game has a healthy playerbase because of it. I would love if more people engaged in WoW pvp.
@@quizkill Except in WoW's case it's simply trying to fix the symptoms, not the underlying issue. Which is that WoW PvP is nowhere near as fun as it used to be. None of these issues that you hear of nowadays regarding rating inflation and all that bullcrap was an issue during MoP. Why? Because MoP PvP was inherently fun. Modern day WoW PvP isn't.
I personally attribute it to a lack of play make potential. Over the years Blizzard removed so many ways you could subtly outplay and mindgame your opponents to the point it's become this sterile environment of doing the most DPS as humanly possible.
WoW PvP needs more ways to outplay opponents on a micro play level. Things like deathing polymorph/blinds, like Intervening CC (which is no longer possible). That shit is what made WoW PvP fun.
League doesn’t even do this. He’s talking about mobile games. Yall don’t even listen.
I do agree with the dude, the problem with WoW inflation is its date gated rather then match played. With my own skill I can play 200 game early season and be hard stuck at 1800-1900. Or I could play 40-50 game in the last month and end with 2k. This is stupid.
I’ve played a bit of arena in Shadowlands and one season in Dragonflight. I’ve played more games of solo shuffle in TWW season 1 than in all other seasons combined though. I was always an 1800 player before. Never even hit 1900. In TWW season 1, I hit 2100 for the first time and it has felt very rewarding. I can’t help but wonder if that would have been 2400 or maybe even higher if I had instead chosen to commit this amount of time to arena in another season like season 1 of Dragonflight where MMR seems like it was super inflated in solo shuffle.
The answer lies on the surface. The player-versus-player game mode, where you compete against real humans, presents a unique challenge. Many people struggle even with minor conflicts, like arguing about a queue at Woolworths, let alone facing direct competition. The game simply aims to reward players for participating, which isn’t inherently bad. For those who dedicate eight hours playing and competing, it's likely a positive experience, and the growing player base is undeniably beneficial from any perspective.
I thought the point of rating inflation in WoW was to prevent people from getting super high CR week one and then logging off for the rest of the season and still getting rank 1.
I get where this philosophy is coming from, until recently I was a .2 k/d player in most competitive games I played. I had games that I enjoyed playing casually die to skill creep where the worst players would stop playing causing the pool of players to bottom out until only the top 10% could engage. The solution people usually ask for is to have tighter skill based match making to make games more balanced and fun but I felt the opposite effect where every match felt more like a battle where I would have my bad habits reinforced, and I would get frustrated for matching against players who seemed out of my "bracket". Coddling bad players doesn't help them, it makes them dependent on the very systems that are pushing them out.
PvP should be allowed to be fun before fair, this is why I think that ranked or skill based matchmaking is a short term fix to a more pressing issue: that many games are trying to bring the dynamics of high level tournament play into casual matchmaking but in doing so tricks bad players into thinking they are better than they are and traps bad better players in unenjoyable matches.
FACTS
Bad Players refuse to get better So they point the fingers Somewhere Else
the big difference is in LoL the main reward is for hitting gold. their version of the glad mount is at gold, past that is purely for the prestige. If all the rewards where at like 1600 then nobody would be complaining. its ok to make the rewards attainable for people and then make the apex tiers just a flex
This is all great but since there are ppl selling boosts right and left, this doesnt work.
Ye no thank me later for solving it….
To be honest, who will even consider a word of a RIOT employee about matchmaking. No disrespect for the dude but there is a reason why LoL is losing playerbase everyday. LoL matchmaking is one of the worst in the industry. Not saying that Blizzard matchmaking is perfect but is lightyears away from RIOT games which makes you feel like your time is worthless putting you in the same team with degenerates who do not value their time either.
It’s still one of the biggest games worldwide idk what you mean
Ranked LoL Solo Queue becoming popular and kinda the main way to play the game was the worst that could have had happen to the game and as we can see to the games in general as an outcome of how big LoL became. It baited/"forced" players into thinking/wanting to play something that maybe isnt the best choice for them and when enough of those players enter the system the whole system has to change. Well ... enough "participation award" players entered and Riot had to adjust the thing. Also there was a lot of business argumentation in August's answer as well for the reason why they had to do the changes. Ranked mode in any game should be the minority of the playerbase and in group oriented ones it should stick to full group queue ( if its a 5v5 game you need a team of 5 to play ranked, period ).
Yes back in 2014 was my first season of League Of Legends. I climbed from Bronze 5 to Diamond 5 in a single season. (top 2% roughly).
I can tell you: that was a lot easier than the current state of getting Glad in wow arena right now. Thats how broken it is
....atleast in other games they get rewarded
I agree rating system needs an overhaul. For solo shuffle and and BG blitz it would work. But as far as 2s,3s etc. it would make finding a group through LFG even harder than it already is. For instance if you're 1600 some 1800 players will give u a try. If your silver and they're diamond, there's no chance that would happen. A big problem of that is the pvp community just feels so small but if there's was gonna be a rating system change, the whole que system and everything would need an overhaul. Could be a great idea and bring players into it with a way to interact with players of your similar skill instead of multi glads at 1800 (of course smurfing is always an issue) but yeah that's kind of my thoughts on it. Prolly one reason Blizz will never do it.
It’s clear that the game designers missed one critical thing: How all the classes interplay. It might be cool to have big “pop-off” cds with big explosions when you are out soloing mobs, but put that in a raid/bg/arena and it just becomes a huge mess.
Just the bloat on the screen with 5 million pets and spell effects is enough to put me off. You should need a screen full of gui mods to be able to play it. This game had its peak in wrath.
I know players want more stuff. I know they need to feel like their character evolves and get more powerful each expansion, but that will inevitably lead to ability inflation. They need to find other ways of achieving that.
Thanks this explains a lot about game designers. ALOT of talk whole lot of not making sense!
How is 2200, 2300 the average player base? @10:30 in the video.. You just discussed in a recent video how 2100+ in this game is like 1% of the pop
He didn't say that the average player is at 2200.
He said that the average players that are already at 2200 rating must have played a lot of seasons to have reached that rating
3:20 it doesn't work like that. The Dev gave a reasonable expectation of starting Iron and reaching silver. Not Diamond which is the top 2-3%
He is 100% correct , having played overwatch where 20-30% of your matches or more are much higher ranked players playing at bronze and silver , if overwatch had a system like,this you would move all that to gold, the real level this should all start and allow bronze and silver to progress . This guys is 100% correct. But it’s just human nature to keep people down , no matter how rich you are you and how much gold you have m you think it’s the guy with a few coppers or silvers is holding you back from platinum
I am an OG vanilla player. I still play retail pve but 0 pvp. None of these rating issues mean anything to me, but rather the gameplay itself. The only thing that will ever get me back to participating in pvp is the complete removal of active pvp talent abilities or a completely different abilities setup than pve.
My bars are full and I cannot afford any more keybind space to abilities I will only use in certain environments. I refuse to move on this, it is a hard line.
I mean if they would do something about addons what percentage of the top 20% of WoW PvPers do not use any addons? That is a question they should attempt to answer. A survey would not provide ideal responses either because some users will not take it seriously or give deceitful responses.
StarCraft 2 had the league system with bronze, silver, gold, diamond etc before League of Legends. I can't say for sure if SC2 invented it or if there was other games with it, but it for sure wasn't LoL.
Also, the early arena seasons where you started at 1500 rating, if you were an average player and had a 50% win ratio you would be hard stuck at 1700-1800 rating. If you were above average you would float around 1900-2000 and then it would go up from there. I don't remember which arena season it was, but somewhere the system got inflated where now if you just spam hundreds upon hundreds of games every season you will eventually be 2200 cause over time you gain more points than you lose
I been stuck at 2100-2400 for so long I usually give up before rhe end of the season to pursue irl stuff, I refuse to reroll too. I just wanna focus on my class/spec and play it to a high level but this kinda dev “theorycraft” pvp shit turns me away from the game
At this point I think WoW pvp needs an external consultant when it comes to rank & balance.
I had a friend that never played the game try pvp so he started to play bgs for honor gear and was getting oneshotted byt everything. He quit 10mins later
This was my expireance as well but then I grinder through re rolled warrior got the full set of honor gear and I was 1 shotting and not even knowing what buttons I was pressing
@@hiimbiggz Yeah, you and I both know you gotta grind and suffer through it but a new player will just say "shit game" and quit and I don't blam them.
@@arturk9181 I feel like I'm still a new player I started at the end of DF I came from eso where I exclusively played pvp it suffered alot of similar problems but on different levels
I miss the older heroes of the storm ranking system where you could climb at a somewhat slow pace but a single loss versus worse people wouldn't set you back a week.
I find the rating system overhaul idea so facinating. Every game that i'm aware of has static numbers for their Rating and their MMR. Being iron 1 in league just means you're between 0-99 rating, iron 2 is 100-199. Valorant same, overwatch afaik same. It's just hidden.
When titles were percentage based the 3600 vs 2400 didn't really matter that much? Wasn't the old system kinda perfect? On lower ratings people still got their progression curve by the end of the season, reinforced by like, getting a weapon at 1800 or shoulders at 2050.
Legend saysVen is still sitting in que after the video is over and edited
It's a problem we KNOW there is inflation.
I, for one, just play less early season because i am not reaching my transmog goals for my classes .
I play a healer, and this system makes me queue less = less healers = longer dps queue...
Good system
The dude is practically saying,that yes,you can actually be gladiator in 1 season and actually fail to do that on an other season. And that should be fine. BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT players expectations are that if you managed to do that one you should be ALWAYS be possible to do it,regardless of tuning,skill,class,spec,team or other irrelevant small details. Once a gladiator always a gladiator, and blizzard should make it easy for you to do that with your fresh reroll you have 10 hours played on. Because you know,you can ask a lot from players, but admitting that sometimes, it might actually be a skill issue, is not one of them. Edit: And just to give an example : When i was 25 i could hit gladiator with my eyes closed. I am not 25 now though,im 35, and even though im WAAAAAAAY more experienced in the game, the days i am not physically and/or mentally tired that would allow me to play on that level are far far far less than they used to. And simply forcing it cause i was able to do that in the past even when drunk af,does no longer work.
im confused, how on earth is this relevant to any of the current pvp issues that are being adressed?
the issue isnt "humpty dumpty the game has gotten harder for somebody who hasnt progressed / hasnt played in a while"
most people also know that just because you got shadowlands glad as ret or other fotm class/expansion comboes, doesnt mean you will get glad in other expansions.
the main and singular most complained about thing, is the fact the mmr is capped so that you do in fact not play against gladiators at gladiator range, or rivals at rival range.
you play against r1/tourny players at DUELIST range for the first month or so of a season, followed by facing r1 players at 2300-2400 for the next 3-4 months, and only at the very last month or so, do you actually see the mmr start to creep up - but at that point, the ladder is hardly active anymore due to people throwing in the white flag ages ago due to the frustrating mmr system.
granted the system still has the flaw that 49% winratio and 5000 games will yield you a rating far above what you deserve, but it doesnt change the fact that you're stuck facing r1 players at ratings you shouldnt.
only possible "fix" to this if they absolutely refuse to remove mmr capping, would be to make matchmaking more strict and decrease cutoff requirements, making rating work much like in TBC and earlier times, in which you would not climb much in points, but you didnt have to climb much to reach a prestigous title to begin with due to lower cutoff requirements
@@Exata1337 I assume you haven't watched the video,cause the dev literally explains that most ppl have quite the high the bar about their perceived skill level, and they also assume that their can only grow from there (while everyone else doesn't). As for how it connects? If you ever played on eu at any rank,you would stumble about this amazing oddity. Sub 500 kills accounts,at 2.2k,2.3K and 2.4k. We all know what those accounts are. They are literally disposable accounts,with some kind of botting usually involved, from ppl that try to see how far they can go without getting banned,or what will get them banned and what won't. We even had a 2.6k havoc dh back in df that was 100% botted. So let me ask you. Considering that at it's peak we had close to 10% of all active accounts in high mmr be something of the short,how would you treat something like that? I am quite positive that said bots can spend more time online than most people,and take advantage of the absense of an mmr cap. ruclips.net/video/jhygeA6tFu4/видео.html&ab_channel=Venruki here you go,some wow history :D EDIT: Oh yeah,let me add that ppl admitting to botting never happens. Ever. You just curiously see some names off the top of the list magically disappear at the end of the season. I am sure you never lost to any such account though. You are better than that :D Anyway to dump it down: Ppl have fragile egos. They like to win. Sometimes they go to great lengths to achieve that. And you will lose quite often to said bots. It doesn't matter if they get banned,you won't be getting your cr back. Having ppl actually play games,with said bots,and having them reported is what gets them banned. If the bot gets so far ahead in mmr that most ppl will never encounter it,well,gl getting it banned. And we have a happy bot user.
@@prestencederien im sorry, but what does anything you mentioned there, have to do with wow's rating system and the majority of current complaints?
even the abundant kick/fakebotting and the r1 hunter/druid team being actual flyhackers for almost an entire season at a point was never the major complaint about pvp.
i may be misinterpreting your comment, but i dont see how botting is relevant to what i pointed out, certainly not in any impactful way compared to the other major issues with the game (and FYI, i know botting, scripting and outright cheats exist and have existed since before arena even came out, but its nowhere near a big enough of an issue when talking about the current main issue with pvp)
the mmr cap, or a lack of it, would not change the outcome of the scenario you're talking about, because like i mentioned, the "49% winratio with 5000 games" will still yield you a better result than fewers games with a higher winratio due to how w/l points are scaled, which is a system that pretty much scales proportionate with increased mmr, meaning if mmr is capped or not, doesnt matter.
when we say "absense of mmr cap", it doesnt mean people will get 8k mmr if they play a lot while nobody else does. you are still going to be limited by the ladder's activity (unless we assume 2 bots wintrade forever, which would've landed the same result regardless of an mmr cap unless we introduce a 3rd bot wintrading, so once again, theres no changed benefits or drawbacks) - but even then, an easy fix to that unrealistic scenario, is to limit mmr to what has been the "realistic" cap - which is around 3-3.5, based on activity.
having a progressively locked mmr in a game where more than half the players only play it for the cosmetic rewards or achievements, while that same system renders any games played before the last 10-20% of the season completely useless - doesnt aid the "illusion of progression" of which the entire system was made to create to begin with, since majority of the players who "play consistent and often and without rewards in mind" are the r1 players and tourny players anyways, not your average pvp andy
As a new player I've been playing since the end of DF I have alot of fun in pvp but it's hard to learn mostly because they que takes so long then u get into a match get destroyed in about 30 seconds then gotta wait 30 mins for another match it makes it frustratingly hard to learn also there are like 13 classes most having 3 specs DH has 2 and druid has 4 and about 30 buttons per class if u want to play optimal u need at least 3 or 4 add-ons then need to configure them In a semi real time scenario to ste them up with the information u need also need to level a character that's not bad now takes about a day then need to gear with also doesn't take long but your going to get destroyed if u are new and have no pvp gear then u need to get enchants embellishments and all the juice all while waiting a half hour between each match that lasts between 30 seconds to 3 mins and as a new player that all adds up to a frustrating expireance most successful pvp games have vary low skill floors and very high skill ceilings where as imo wow has a pretty rough barrier to entry
I'm a PvE andy since Shadowlands, but I enjoy competitive video games and am generally good at them, diamond or above in the ones I've spent time in. So I really want to get into wow PVP, I spend so much time on the game and I think the pacing of PVP would be much more to my liking. Here's my experience as a competent gamer and PvE wow player (warrior) trying rated PvP as it pertains to this video:
- Gearing sucks. Not hard, but equally not rewarding during the grind. Big barrier to entry if you've never PvP'd before.
- There's no sense of how good any rank is below Gladiator. If someone says they're Duelist that means absolutely nothing to me or any of my PvE friends. I don't have anything to shoot for because there's no point where I'm like "yay i'm diamond i'm good at the game"
- I felt like my rank was too inflated. When you gain 1200 rating points for free, it's hard to judge your own improvement. I know Blizz doesn't want it to be hard to get your first PvP achievement, but if a rating scale starts at 0, it should feel like there are actually people who are just 500 rated players. Maybe that's just an issue with the size of the player base though.
- Blizzard should build something like GladiusUI and OmniCD into the vanilla form of PvP. If they're gonna make the info available, casual players shouldn't need to go to a third party to see trinket timers, defensive cooldowns and auras, DRs, etc. This is probably the biggest barrier to entry for the most people. Needing to go to RUclips and reading through pages of UI settings before you can even play the real game is not a feasible system to grow the player base and legitimize the ranked system.
No that’s not why I engage in a competitive ladder. This dev is why ranked ladders are so unengaging in modern gaming.
I literally don’t care about “improving”. I just want to play fair matches vs my peers where at the end of the season the amount of points I get from wins ranks me higher than the rest of those same peers.
I was fucked by matchmaking in BGB. I started a few weeks into the tier. I got 6 wins 0 losses, 1300 CR, 2k+ mmr and thrn I was matched with people that had over hundred games, 30% win ratio abd similar CR to mine. I lost a few games like that and now I get +- 15 rating per game. Doesn't really feel rewarding at all when you're not matched with equally skilled players and your mmr got eaten by that.
"the ranking system is designed the way it is because it more addictive this way, even if its not actually good design from players (who actually tries to improve and wish for fair balanced games with similar skill lvl of both teams) point of view"
Is there any actual data supporting anything that the dev says - or is this just an impression that he has?
Yes, change the rating system to we can shine bright like a Diamond.
Imagine a separate client for WoW pvp balanced purely for arenas.
No gearing. No talents. No choice apart from the set spec.
Only reward is earning ranks like in starcraft.
You play because you love the game
They could find a balance between wotlk/cata and retail pvp where it isn't as hard to watch as retail, make spells very clear and a ui that has all the info you need without a PhD in add ons/weakauras. At the same time it would be faster paced and still has dampening so there isn't long mana wars or 1 hour 2v2 matches like wotlk cata.
Fine tune every spec so that it can be viable, and if some comps are too OP you get a debuff or have abilities nerves while in the comp only.
Eg. RMP has less duration on sheep, or a longer DR to stop resets and waiting for the enemy team to have that window of nothing can be done and they lose.
Make hit rating and resist rng nonexistent.
Ranking systems based in how this dev explains where at lower brackets it inflates but higher is capped and proves who is the undisputed best.
Blizz has so many versions of wow I don't see why not. Yes it would fragment the player base further but I can't remember the last pvper I've met who also likes to raid. We are a different audience altogether.
I can dream
venruki hear me out… why do they do this but have such frequent flavor of the month class tuning? the flavor of the month combined with mmr inflation effect really discourages highly skilled players.. it kinda forces us to step into the time dedication level of the professional players. we cannot all be professional players, we leave that to you bro!
As a casual WoW player, I never liked rated PvP of any kind. The focus on rated play isn't good for me; it just ensured I wouldn't PvP at all. From my point of view, ratings are a system designed to tell the casuals they suck. How could this be expected to attract and retain such players? And without the casuals as cannonfodder, how are the better players to enjoy themselves? The lesser of those good players will now find themselves at the bottom of the residual pyramid, and so on as PvP bleeds away.
can you credit him in description please?
One big reason why the MMR in Solo Shuffle during Dragonflight was significantly higher than in 2v2 or 3v3, is the same reason why the current MMR in Blitz is much higher than in Solo Shuffle, 2v2, and 3v3. The designers need to justify their decisions and demonstrate success to their superiors and economists, who often lack an in-depth understanding of World of Warcraft. By manipulating player flow through inflated MMR, they are able to present their work in a more favorable light.
this factor is meaningless if we can't provide evidence for A) its existence or B) it having a relevant effect on the state of the game.
@@codyp2808 There is definitely enough evidence. Why is the MMR in Blitz 1k higher than in Solo Shuttle, even though, according to Check PvP, they are played about equally often? Why has it historically always been the case that the new game mode is about 1k rating higher?
@@codyp2808 Why is the MMR in TWW Solo Shuffle lower than in 3s, even though there are still ten times more games played in Solo Shuffle than in 3s? It's the same ratio as in Dragonflight. IT should be as much higher as in dragonflight
Alot of people forget that most people who play games are not intense like us. Rank isn't pro play, its a taste of it. Im not saying to throw your games, but there's no reason to demoralize someone who gets to play 1/4 of time we do. Unfortunately, rank has been imbedded into gaming culture and even casual gamers take part. I don't think its a big deal that the lower ranks are inflated and to be honest, in most games, after silver its all about skill difference and the gap obviously narrows the higher rank you are. I don't know how wow's mmr system these days, but i think most games do a decent job. Not that things can't be improved
This is an elite take. Blizzard take notes.
This is the story the rat letting the smaller rat win sometimes so he keeps playing. This is great for player retention, but awful for a non-toxic environment.
My highest 2s rating ever was last season at 1907. My friend and I are fighting double multi glads / duelists and a few double rank 1s sub 1650 this season. I like fighting better players to improve but this system will not bring new players in. I also have no business playing these people despite what inflation there is.
and guess what those players get to inflate their ego by getting free wins. imagine they had to play glads every match which they don't... they just pad stats and wins on low rank players and think they are good
The problem with wow is that it first deflates and then inflates, so even if you DO get better you probably won't get to the rating you belong. i've been consistently hitting 2100 every season with not much effort but this season i spent the first month getting destroyed by multi glads and awc players at 1600 until i just quit the game. Are you telling me i'm not really a duelist but just had it handed to me every single season? OK even if that's the case, but if that's so it then means AWC players dont belong in glad either because no one even reached 2.4k when i quit. This is the problem with wow, not only doesn't introduce inflation at a good phase but it also artificially keeps you down until the devs decide its ok to allow you to climb, which is nuts.
Need to fix the system. Too many people quitting over it
First game i played that had "diamond" type ranking was Starcraft 2.
Welcome to the Skinner Box. Also, something, something, Pavlov's puppers.
I know Ven is being a bit tongue in cheek with his "oh my god we're all being conditioned to just win for free", but the example the Riot guy gave was really bad.
If WoW wants new players they need to encourage people to give it a try and not immediately quit. Hard stopping them early before they even start learning the nuances of the game is just counterproductive.
A rank system isn’t supposed to have players feel good. It’s supposed to give you an accurate reflection of how good you are at a game in relation to all of the other players. WTF is going on?
You cannot fix wow's ranking system with its increadibly low player base. Need more players to play or the ladder is conflated in very stupid and artificial ways.
They have this system because means more money if you give easy rewards for wins. If new players try game and they got feeling that they are not improving they lose cash, literally...
Hate to break it to you, but this happens in irl too. participation awards, anyone who isn't educated expecting things in comparison to people who are. business owners who take risk and climbing to the top before starting their own.
I thought the inflation was due to the better players stopped playing because they met their goal and because the worse players are continuing to play the player base overall isn't as competitive.
tww was the first expansion since mop that i got really into and then the second i started pvping i realized bad pvp is atm 😔 haven’t touched it in months now
I think WoW got the MMR system right. Games felt close when you were at "your" correct MMR. In LoL, the games are lopsided and the mmr is clearly not working properly. You can be Diamond in solo queue and bronze in Flex queue.... and therefore, you face other bronze players in flex. Like, how is that fair?
Both games have insane design problems. Mages and rogues have simply been too overpowered since 2004, and Blizz never really hit the brake on them. Always relevant, always strong, always top tier. In LoL they care way too much about win % to the point they still let some champions have broken kits. So skilled players who play a broken champion will wreck the game, and bad players will reach that 50% winrate they aim for, even though the design is flawed and overtuned to begin with.
But Riot is actually trying to balance ALL chmpions towards that 50% and it's a actually refreshing to see, the meta is everchanging. In WoW, you you NEVER go wrong with classes like mage, rogue or warlock. I haven't plated WoW since Legion, but I know this is correpct. Don't tell me RMP is bad.
There's nothing wrong with the rating, just the rewards earned and how they tie to the rating that needs to be redesigned
The fact you NEED addons and not playing the game by true skill is the real problem.
For me the rating depends on the game. I was just as happy when i hit diamond in rocket league than i was hitting masters on OW and glad in WoW. It was really hard for me to get out of platinum in rocket league when i first played so i appreciated the diamond more than i would in other games.
Alright so 1500 player gets inflated al the way up to 1800 after that inflation should stop and it should be about skill. I can live with that. People that want the armor set can get it by playing, after that you need to improve in my opinion. Also if I get 2400 rating previous season I should be able to get it now and immediately right at the start if my skill is the same.
This is a huge problem in league sepcifically now though. There are some absolute dogshit players at higher ranks. They are insanely bad but boosted because of this system. It makes it impossible to carry them
Leagues system isnt really that good either though
I liked DF ssn 4 because they didn't reset mmr. Everyone started on their mmr from ssn 3, so everyone was where they belong. Also R1 was around 3.2k CR in SS at the end of the ssn, so it wasn't overinflated. This is easyer solution and they can implement it next ssn. Or another not so hard solution could be an auto-inflating formula that would be driven by the number of active players in a given bracket and how high their ratings are.
I don’t know I always hate getting 200lp and then you reach 1600 or so and suddenly you gain 15….
The skill gap between someone who's played even 1 season and a brand new player is massive, let alone someone who's been pvp'ing in wow for years. This may not be what people want to hear, but I don't think WoW's pvp system can be fixed. It's a club now and you are either in or you are out. I tried to bring two family members in last year, first game we destroyed (predictably) and they will never touch ranked pvp again. Sad thing is they love BG's, but nobody likes getting their teeth kicked in at the front door.