The 2024 F1 fix that is already failing
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- Опубликовано: 7 май 2024
- F1 has given itself a problem it has tried and failed to fix in 2024. The new 10-second penalty for leaving the track and gaining an advantage has created unintended consequences that were laid bare for all to see in the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix.
0:00 Intro
0:30 Is F1's penalty system too easy to game?
2:18 Current focus is in the wrong place
3:30 'Spending penalties' could have dangerous consequences
4:09 What's the answer?
5:42 'Unsporting behaviour' from Haas?
8:25 Can the FIA get this under control?
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Bring back the drive through penalty and all this nonsense will stop
100% agree
drive through is quite harsh though. MotoGP has a long lap penalty which works pretty well.
Drive throughs were considered to be too harsh. That's why
A drive through equates to 20 secs depending on the circuit... it's quite a harsh one for minor infringements.
A drive through is only too harsh IF they don't give the position back.
"max you have a 5 second penalty"
Max: "send them my regards"
*Wins by 20 seconds*
Exactly.
Other teams need to drive faster
If it was only the car Perez could do this too...but he can't. Max is the best f1 driver that ever lived. Is said it
@@mr_movieguruperez is a good driver. But Max is just much better. Wouldn't compare him to any other driver, except those we know really can't drive.
Just like Valentino Rossi in Philip Island in 2003
Formula One: the world's only race series where there is more to talk about regarding ANYTHING other than racing.
this is to be fair about the racing
that means they're doing something right. Meanwhile, other series- ppl just forget the last race weekend.
It's been like this since I started watching in the mid 90s. The drama around the Ferrari and MSC era was always ridiculous.
Pretty much. You can find better actual racing at your local track on a Saturday night.
So true.
And that’s just sad…
Adding insult to injury, Magnussen's 20s penalty didn't actually move him behind all the cars that were within 20s of him because they were lapped and he wasn't, so he was able to complete the final lap and the added time to his race did almost nothing to change his finishing position.
That fact was the icing on the cake.
Who cares
What KMAG did easy utterly disregard to the spirit of racing and may the best the fastest win. I'm my opinion he should receive a race ban and 10 points deduction to Haas team points. Unsporstmanlike behaviour should be punished
@@tiagoferreira5368defensive strategy is a fundamental part of racing
Eh? I recall seeing Magnussen drop 6 places in the standings because of his penalty. Did they revise that afterward?
I think when it comes to illegal overtakes, the first call from the steward should be “give the position back by the end of the lap” and no penalty, that way we continue to get good racing. But if they don’t comply then they get a drive through penalty, that would certainly guarantee drivers and teams don’t try and take tactical penalties
I agree. Everyone makes mistakes too. Give it back right away or drive through. Contined chance of racing that way, and fair
Disagree, you can’t have a situation where there is literally zero penalty, the driver who was overtaken has already taken damage so how is that fair? Whether it was intentional or a “mistake” does not matter. Should be that they need to give her position back, and then also take some kind of penalty (maybe 5 seconds is enough for that)
The only exception is if the driver immediately gives back the position.
@@tak8261 I don’t think that’s the case, that’s why I said the position should be given back by the end of that lap. I think back to Canada 2019 Seb vs Lewis. If they said Seb had to hand over the position instead of handing him a penalty, we would have gotten a fight to the end instead of knowing Lewis just had to stay within 5 seconds… as long as they give the position up, the fight continues. An additional penalty would only rob us of any meaningful fight
by the end of the next lap* would be more logical.
Things aren't always intantaneous and cars moves around a lap pretty fast, so give them a minute lol
@@stefanrhys44What you are essentially saying is that if somebody overtakes illegally, they do not get penalized as long as they give it back quickly.
My point is that, just returning it quickly should not be a reason for not penalizing them, the driver who got overtaken has been impacted regardless of how quickly they may get the position back. (It will definitely hurt their lap time on that particular lap).
What you are suggesting is that, if somebody steals something from a store but you are caught and you quickly return it, you do not get charged for it. That is not how things should work.
That is why, whilst giving the position back should be a given, they should also receive some kind of penalty as well.
Back in the day when the minimum penalty is about 10-25 seconds, drivers and fans complained the penalties are too severe and artificial. How the tables have turned
If they make the change people are talking now, they will start to complain they are too severe again. Maybe wait a bit more than two races before we start with the knee jerk reactions.
The problem with the current penalties isn't the size, it's that the penalties aren't instant. I'd like F1 to implement a long lap penalty if possible, but without that option I'd rather see harsh but immediate drive-through penalties than the delayed and often nullified 5- or 10-second penalties handed out these days.
any sport has this issue. Suarez made a hands ball in 2010 and Uruguay was rewarded with a semi final. Players regularly take yellow cards to stop attacks.
@@thomasvrielink299 Long lap penalty is moto BS, we'd have to modify circuits to accommodate it.
All they need to do is reintroduce the old penalty's that worked.
Minor infraction drive through penalty
Major infraction stop go-penalty.
Failure to serve penalty/last lap offense DSQ.
Another brilliant issue with the time penalties added after the race is that they become meaningless if you are the last car on your lap. With all the +20 seconds and a train of cars behind him, KMag lost only one position, because only Albon was not lapped by Max. Ocon in 13th was only 8 seconds behind KMag and should be ahead of him in standings, but the checkered flag for Max stopped his race one lap earlier than KMag and Danish man kept his place in front. If Albon would have been overtaken by Max as well, then those 20 seconds would become completely meaningless. Yes, it is a very situational advantage that might not happen very often, but there are some scenarios, when drivers are better off by committing multiple offences, accumulating insane amount of penalty seconds, but being the last car not lapped, would virtually clear then of any penalty at all.
Another problem is when teams are using their second driver to protect their first driver. If your lead driver is in the points, the guy in 11th is catching him and your other driver is 12th - just have your second driver overtake off track. Yes, you'll get a penalty but who cares? He can hold up the chasing driver and ensure your guy scores a point, after that who gives a shit if the other driver gets a time penalty?
@@craigcharlesworth1538 well, although a good point, but to be fair, exploiting the teammate to help the teams lead driver is not a new problem and is not exactly tied to harshness of penalty. Whenever there are two drivers from different teams fighting for championship, there always have been those "Bottas should crash into Max and seal the title for #44" talks. Or straight out "Nelsinho, can you please crash into the wall, that would help Nando a little bit..." orders. But yes, the smaller the penalty, the more it incentivizes teams to exploit it and "sacrificing" one driver for the other is definitely on their list of actions.
Maybe they should've actually passed him at some other corner. He was fast enough to keep them behind.
They weren't fast enough to pass him, that's the sad fact. They had plenty of chances and were unable. What Haas did was good strategy, the track was hard to pass on but that's not their or Magnussen's fault
@@PlaySA Actually, KMag pulled away from the train as soon as Hulk exited from pits. He was faster than all of them and was deliberately driving slower to give Hulk the gap.
What HAAS did was genius. These tracks need more space to overtake safely.
Agreed. Everyone obsessed with penalties right now when if this happened at a real track the problem would have sorted itself out in 1 or 2 laps - or in the gravel.
First penalty 10s 2nd penalty drive through in the pits. Also the officials need to be faster at telling drivers to give places back.
They are way to slow.
@The Race - Are we not even going to talk about how Magnusen had 20s of penalties but STILL finished in front of all of those cars because he wasn't lapped?
they werent gonna get pts anyway tho
What??
@@axelode45 look at the final standings from the race
This is why I like MotoGP long lap or DTM Penalty box, they're an instant(ish) way to make the penalty stand, which for the most part helps readress whatever was the issue. Drive throughs also are pretty much instant but besides putting a driver onto a wall they're too harsh.
Teams will self-police far more if "give the position back" is the default penalty for overtaking off track. Rulings from the stewards aren't immediate. If the car to be penalized is faster, they grow a gap and this penalty becomes more harsh the longer they wait. This incentivizes giving the position back as soon as possible without a steward ruling, something the teams can & will do.
Imagine getting a penalty in football, but waiting until 90th minute before your opponent can take the PK
Before I started watching Formula One I had never time penalties like that. I grew up watching Indycar where drive through penalties are the norm and stop-and-go penalties are used for really egregious stuff.
They should do what MotoGP does, the long lap penalty.....that would change their tune...
There are some problems
N1. having circuits with long lap isn't always possible(for example Monaco)
N2. in MotoGP you lose about ~3sec which is nothing in F1 but it is a very big margin for MotoGP standards
@@cristiandumitrescu17443sec isn’t “nothing” in f1 lol
@@copperandgold4674 Compared to MotoGP it is. The difference between P1 and P19 in Qatar MotoGP race this weekend was 25 sec.
In F1 Saudi the difference between P1 and P4 was 32 seconds. So 3 seconds in MotoGP will affect your race *WAY* more than what 5 or even 10 sec will do in F1.
@@cristiandumitrescu1744 3s is enough if you serve the penalty immediately
Or just bring grass back to the edges of the track, as soon as you hit it, that's your penalty, the problem is, tracks are made to be abused, especially by F1, maybe instead of a long lap, just add the 5 secs on at the end of the race, whatever works, because something better needs to happen...go back to drive through penalties
Simple you must give the place back within 2 corners or the next straight if you don't you will get a 5 second stop and go which must be served at the next possible opportunity (as soon as you get to pit entrance)
if there was a drive through penalty where you have to drive through the pits IMMEDIATELY without stopping that would be perfect
It seems fairly simple.. If a driver overtakes off track or gains an advantage off track that leads to an overtake, once the penalty is decided, the driver has 30 seconds to give the place back of they're DQ'd from the race.. I don't understand how it ever got to the point where someone can overtake off track and KEEP the position??
drive thru the pits in the same lap the penalty is awarded might kinda work
And I was sitting here thinking it was about the DRS enable after the first lap...
lol
Either use the drive thru penalty box method (must drive off the line and under a certain speed in a certain area on next lap) or just force penalties to be served with the next 2 or 3 laps.
Upon issue of a penalty, deployment of DRS and ERS is disabled for a fixed number of laps. If too few laps remain an additional time per lap is added to the total race time.
Or just reduce that car's power by 50 hp
They should do drive through penalties right away. As soon as it happens. That would eliminate it.
idk why they removed it in the first place
@@aiexielplays8028because they were perceived to be too harsh.
@@aiexielplays8028Because of everyone complained about them and they'll do it again if they start to implement them here.
Drive throughs are even harsher now than before since all the cars are closer now. So effectively getting a 30 seconds penalty will destroy anyone not named Verstappen's race.
@@Dragonpuncher123it would force drivers to give places back immediately then. If you overtake off track and don't give the place back at the first safe opportunity then you take the penalty.
@@dahorn100011 Then you need faster stewarding. Right it takes stewards 10 laps to give out a verdict. That's the actual problem that not enough people are talking about. In this billion dollar sport the stewarts are still volunteers and there are only a few each race. If we want a better application of penalties that's the most important thing to change, imo.
F1 could learn from Indycar through their use of drive through or going to the back of the field penalties. A 5 or 10 second penalty is a slap on the wrist for a good portion of the field
As a sim racing steward, when i'm reviewing incidents i'm always feeling "this might be too harsh of a penalty" until I remember "ITS SUPPOSED TO BE HARSH" as a deterrent! Bring in DT's for contact, track limits etc - and you will see a HELL of a lot of difference in the way they drive :)
Was just looking for new The Race / F1 content over my lunch break.. good timing.. lol
If the teams are ever calculating 'is it worth breaking this rule and accepting the penalty?' then the penalty is too lenient.
Not penalizing a violation because it wasn't penalized in the past (in the case of Norris' jump start) makes absolutely no sense. In that case you might as well ditch the rule.
The rules are the rules, the Formula is the Formula. It MUST be applied consistently. And there are plenty of ways to meaningfully penalize a driver. For example, in the case where MAG overtook TSU and then went off-track, disable ERS for 5 laps. That would not entirely destroy someone's race but still be a meaningful penalty and deterrent. The same goes for track limits. They need to be applied to every corner on every track. If that means drivers can't take the corner as fast as they used to, tough, but it's the same for everyone.
F1 needs to update their penalties taking the current tech into account. Get creative, like the constructors do.
4:20 if you rob a bank then you are not just told to give the money back.
Good point.
In psychology, a potential offender perceiving a higher likelihood of being caught/ penalised is generally more effective to discourage offending than increasing the penalty. So, if the stewards make sure that every offence gets a penalty, and they err on the side of penalising rather than letting someone off because it seems harsh, there'll be less issues
I completely agree that the competitors have too much say... they even have say on who they will compete against (Andretti)
F1 made the decision….not the teams
What K-Mag did was fine, its called strategy. He played the team game and thats what mattered for Haas, the other teams should have adapted or try take a risk. I didnt hear Alonso getting this dicussion raised after the 2022 Monaco GP where he held the whole grid from P7 down.
Did he get into that position through an illegal overtake though. That’s the difference here.
KMag would have passed Tsunoda no matter @@pbutok, even if he had given back the position.
@@DrawsACircle why? The RB had much better race pace than the HAAS in the first stint and in race simulations in practice. Tsunoda matched the Ferrari in the first stint. They were down on top speed vs the HAAS which was why the struggled to overtake so badly, but if they got through Zhou then there was absolutely 0 guarantee that Magnussen overtakes tsunoda. In fact I’d say the likelihood is the opposite.
What happened after Nico returning from his pit stop @@pbutok? Kevin increased the distance to the ones behind him. The same in Bahrain, Tsunoda could not keep up with the Haas.
@@DrawsACircle That’s obviously because tsunoda spent 15 laps driving 0.3 seconds behind the car in front. The amount of tyre life that consumes is insane.
Bring back armco barriers and gravel traps.
Natural consequences work best.
Crazy amount of tarmac run off space nowadays
Safety mania ruining yet another aspect of the sport...
That's completely unrealistic and not doable.
You can keep moaning about it tho.
@@FRPlayerOne You do understand this is the RUclips Comment Section right?
@@1964mcqueen Yeah like every other comment section on the internet saying the same exact unrealistic and not doable stuff. 🤷♂️
I agree about it’s better to be too harsh with the penalties. For things like an unsafe release the pits for example, a drive through penalty will make teams think twice before risking a collision
Alex Albon said it best- “When an off track overtake happens, the offending driver always needs to give back the position and serve the time penalty.”
Make it a 5s penalty if they don't immediately give the place back, and if they carry on more than 2 corners without giving it back, then give them drive-through penalty immediately. That way if it's an innocent mistake they get one chance to yield without a penalty, and one chance to get just a minor penalty, but if they don't make it right then a mandatory drive-through removes them from the part of the race they've interfered with.
Before the next corner is inpossible , corners can be a second away from each other
😂
Do you realize how fast Formula one cars go through corners ???? lmao
Overtake off the track: Give back position within a reasonable about of time or get a drive through penalty to be served within the next couple of laps.
That will give the position back and be a deterrent for sure.
Bring back drive through penalties . An unsafe release like the Perez incident from Jeddah should have been a 10 second stop go imo. An accident in the pit lane with that many cars scrambling around due to the safety car, could very easily have turned into dead pit crew or broadcast staff
I agree about unsafe release being more harshly penalized.
What I don't understand is why F1's pit lanes are so narrow in the first place. There should be a second lane with a little extra run off area next to the outside wall of the lane.
Funny how when there were gravel traps it was not really a problem, as they gave their own immediate penalty rather than now with the tarmac runoff, might be a clue to the solution there!
I'd agree were it not for the tendency of these cars to get beached and bring out a safety car.
I think that in the illegal overtake case, the FIA should tell the driver to give the place back in x laps or else he will be disqualified. This would be simpler and force the driver to act soon.
its very simple, at least for out of rules overtakes:
if driver A overtakes driver B by breaking a rule, you have to give position back withing the end of the next lap
if driver A fails to give the position back > drive through penalty
For an illegal overtake (i.e. going off track), give the place back within 2 laps or get a drive through
How to get a Monaco podium as an F1 backmarker!
1. Overtake everyone by cutting through Saint Devote and Nouvelle
2. Dont get lapped
3. ???
4. Podium!!
Easy way to stop track limits - gravel traps and walls. No track limits violations in Monaco. Just saying
Also extremely limited passing. There are tradeoffs.
mas até os meios-fios não são considerados parte da pista,
if you overtake off track, you either give the place back within 2 sectors, or serve a drive through penalty the next lap. 1) the penalty is big enough to dissuade people from doing it, and 2) if they do, the penalty corrects the situation on track so we don't have to do math to figure out the final classification
I think the weighing of penalties within teams should be allowed and sort of enabled, because it will happen no matter what.
For example: I would deal with this by making penalties for track infringements such as overtaking outside track limits here a progressive penalty system. From the overtake you have X amount of corners time to give it back, before the second penalties apply. Then it would transition to 5 seconds. Give the place back in 2 laps time or the penalty will increase to 10 seconds and so on. 10 laps down and it's a disqualification(? or something equally as heavy). This way there is that wiggle room with a very heavy insentive to obay stewards orders and continue on as normal. If the race ends in this time period, the time will be added on or the position is dropped back. For the teams and drivers, racing is a mind game more than anything, so conform the rules to account for that.
The car regulations are like this, so why aren't the racing rules like that also. Cars evolve over time and so do tactics on how to use said cars. the rules are better off not being a hard wall, but rather like a gravel trap.
They should bring back drive throughs as minimal penalty.
Also penalties should be applied just as they do in sim racing, you have 3 laps or you get disqualified.
To help the matter, stewards should be way faster at investigating incidents, they can not be investigating 10 laps or more after the fact
they should look at the MotoGP long lap penalty. It's not the big penalty of a drive-through but it means track position is given up and for a bigger offence you can have multiple long laps.
I like the idea but as someone else pointed out, there are tracks where it's not possible, like Monaco. 🤷🏻♀️
@@y_fam_goeglyd They could configure something at the harbour chicane going into the run-off area
@@NonFlyiingDutchmanand create dangerous situations? No thanks.
I feel like an electronic ‘long lap’ is perfectly easy these days. Literally just a virtual safety car delta +10 lap over the course of 1 lap where you cannot hold up any other cars whilst serving it. Think of the type of thing you see in racing games like iracing.
@@halofreak1990 why would it be dangerous?
In magnussen's case, it could be solved with an easy fix.
Since a drivethrough is roughly costing 20 sec, the rule could be: "two pending time penalties cause an instant drivethrough."
I have a simple solution for the overtaking off the track problem: drivers have to give the place back-regardless of how far ahead they’ve gotten since-plus the time penalty.
Failure to give the place back will result in a mandatory stop & go penalty and failure to serve the stop and go will be met with a disqualification.
Just like how it was in the 90s and earlier No penalties unless something is deliberate.
Judging intentions would always be quite complicated.
Oh nooo, I accenditally cut straight through the chicane at Monza...
Might as well continue with no penalty.
Makes perfect sense !!
That is idiotic.
An unsafe pit release being only a 5 second penalty and a track limit violation only being worth 10 seconds is somewhat idiotic. Bring back drive through penalties and Stop and Go penalties.
Funny, because those were deemed too severe
not by us@@halofreak1990
I think a potential solution would be somethig like a slow down penalty like in sim racing. Where the driver would slow down whenever the penalty is issued and essentially add the required penalty time to their lap. That way any advantage gained would be reversed and it acts immediately as a deterrent.
Slowing down on track is terrible (and potentially dangerous) idea. Have you never seen in-car footage of an F1 car closing in on another going slowly (qualifying preparation lap, for example)? Even under slipstream conditions at full race speed, sometimes the closure rate can be arse-tweaking, especially if the leading driver jinks slightly!
@@MrMairu555 I didn't mean dropping to half of the race speed at the issuance of the penalty for example, that is dangerous. I more meant the drivers could maybe lift and coast into corners or take unoptimal racing lines in order to lose 5 or so seconds over the course of a lap. Something more akin to a Red Bull driving at the pace of an Alpine lol.
In virtual racing there is a ghost mode for a reason. Not so much IRL.
@@n1q0la52It's still dangerous, the speed differential [if they're not expecting it] could be too great. It would also be too random. For example, if they were trying to maintain a delta and were half way round a blind corner. All penalties should be taken in the pit box, *ALL* of them. It wouldn't deter as much as gravel did (or barriers at Monaco does), but it would be a much greater deterrent, particularly in Red Bull's case now, and for Merc and Ferrari before that. The team (and driver) needs to feel the "pain" of an indescretion and resulting penalty.
I think the solution is actually super simple. Take the long lap approach from motogp. It eliminates the need for penalties to be served at a pit stop or the end of the race, and would physically ensure the penalty has to be taken immediately and prevents situations like we saw in Jeddah. It wouldn’t stop HAAS from legitimately running the same strategy with Magnussen if they are willing to sacrifice a car, but would prevent him from being able to essentially maintain position by going off track.
Can f1 not do what Motogp does... Create a long lap that adds 4-5 seconds on the usual lap and if you've committed an of track pass / gain an advantage you have to the end of next lap to swap back or its the long lap penality the lap after that. Giving stewards time to view it and not having a 20 lap impact on the grand prix. 🤷♂️
No this isn't physically possible on all tracks.
With how many street circuits F1 races on, not really feasible. Especially in a way that has the cars rejoin the normal circuit safely.
I'd prefer the DTM solution: A penalty zone ON the track where you have to drive very slowly (i think it's 50 kph for DTM which costs the driver roughly 5 seconds).
You could use this solution even on tight tracks like Monaco. For example just after the right-hander leading to the tunnel.
@@Neamands and other cars passing by going 300kph.
Very safe.
Just use the pitlane. Jesus.
10s penalty should trigger after 30 seconds of being in front when you shouldn't be, and then another 10 seconds for every lap you haven't corrected it. Or at least attempted to correct it.
Which would've lead to KMag getting a 3-day penalty instead of a 20-second one, but still being able to slow Yuki down enough for Nico to score that point...
@@thomasvrielink299 hm, good point. i suppose they're going to need to find a way to make it sting even when the race is forfeit.
@@thomasvrielink299And ironically enough he'd *still* finish in the same spot ahead of many others because of the lapped cars rule. 3 day penalty still ahead of getting lapped.
I think penalties should be immediate and on track.
Disable ERS deployment for a lap, no DRS for the rest of the race, etc…
things that actually hit them hard and put infringing drivers back in the order
Funny, all the years Mercedes was minutes ahead of the entire grid we didn't mind the current penalty system.
Today Mercedes is falling further and further behind and now we must take away the thing Mercedes gamed for their advantage to once again help them get free positions on track through the penality system.
the more you realise F1 is dying...
Not dying, just levelling out from the massive drive to survive rush.
lmao funny
There is a quite simple way to deal with the overtaking off track issue. If you don’t give the position back within a lap you get auto disqualified. I promise people won’t risk the dq and will always give back the position if this rule is in effect and is actually enforced.
Edit: Well I guess they basically agree with that thought process so I’ll just say props for finding the easy fix which for some reason they just refuse to do.
Timed penalty are basically advantages to fast teams vs slow ones. Meaning the cost of the penalty is less harsh when your pace is 1.5s faster...
For illegal overtakes, it needs to be an immediate penalty, either must be served within 3 laps or the position returned, anything else allows the system to be gamed
Why 5sec or 10sec ? They could have go with 7seconds ? 5sec if it's not enough, 10sec is to harsh, you don't want to overtake on the outside atm because if the others drivers push you wide out of the track you get 10sec and your race is over :/
The issue isn't to do with how the time penalty is applied or how the tracks do not punish the cars enough, it's to do with how hard it is to overtake and how easy it is for certain cars to gain an advantage.
Obviously if it is close to impossible to overtake safely or fairly, drivers would prefer to take a penalty just to get ahead of a driver. It's that or stay behind someone for 30 laps in the hope that they make a mistake and do tyre management or knacker your own tires which ruins your race/strategy.
How about:
- give it back within 1 lap
- for every lap you don't give it back,+ 5 sec penalty.
- after 3 laps, 15sec total penalty
- 6 laps: 30 sec penalty,
And so on...
(If team feels there is no violation and they plan to contest the penalty after, they can keep going and have that penalty erased if they're successful).
This literally used to be fixed back in the day when there was 3 lap limit to serve your penalty. Never understood why it was taken back.
Just to recap how it worked back in the day you had to serve the penalty at the pitbox if it timed penalty and teams could then compine it with a pitstop but obviously it messed their strategy. And if it was drivethrough or stop and go you could not do any work on the car during that visit to the pits meaning it was harsher than the timed ones in away.
Maybe because of that time Schumacher finished the race in the pits, still taking the win and taking the penalty after having finished the race, can't say which exact race that was. It probably was done to remove that loophole even though it introduced this new problem as we saw with Magnussen last weekend. Maybe the current problem is rare enough for it not to be too much of a problem. After all, Saudi is one of a few tracks where it is hard to overtake (only some of the street tracks have this issue) and most of the time the points are pretty much going to the clear top 5, Stroll crashing on such a track could be rare enough for this problem to not need any resolution. They could just leave it be for the rare instance this might actually happen.
penalty for overtaking off the track could be - your finishing position is moved to behind the person you passed, regardless of how far back that may be. Or just go back to a drive through penalty within 2 laps. worked before
I think when it comes to overtaking illegally through either using brute force and literally pushing your way past or cutting corners to over take you should be told straight away hand the position back and if the driver in question refuses to do so there needs to be an instant penalty there and then so a 10 second stop and go for example but it had to be served straight away so for example you over take someone off the track at turn one your instantly told hand it back if you don't hand it back within 2 corners for example you get a ten second stop and go penalty that must be served the first time you reach the pit entrance because then theres no time for the driver to pull out a lead and a stop and go penalty makes it so if the pit lane your losing 27 seconds for a normal pit stop your going to be losing over 30 seconds and not even getting your tires changed in the process meaning you then have to come in again probably that's the only way i see drivers not taking the piss out of the penalties
When it comes to kevin magnussen there was nothing wrong with the way he defended like he did the point is the penalty made no difference he had 20 seconds if penalties and because he managed to stay on the leading lap at the end his position didn't change even though there were many cars within 20 seconds of him which is madness
One solution could be to have an additional longer route on part of the circuit called a "penalty lane" that has to be driven down when the driver commits an offence. It could add approx 5 to 10 seconds to a drivers lap time and must be driven down within 3 laps. That wouldn't be as severe as driving slowly down the pitlane for a drive through.
This should be enforced by track design; grass, gravel traps, walls, etc... The teams and drivers will always take what they can and will optimise their races, taking everything into account (even penalties) to get the upper hand.
A drive-through is a type of long lap; even more pronounced if it includes a stop/go. The only disadvantage is that it's in the pit lane which can be a dense traffic zone at times.
Couldn't agree more with what was said here. I remember when I started watching F1 in 2007, colissions were usually penalised with drive through or 10 place grid drops for example, and penalties for other offences were harsher as well. Also, something like a long lap from MotoGP could be decent for policing things like passing off track, or maybe something like a penalty box were you have to do a quick stop and go that would be placed in the safe spot of the run off of one of the corners
Introduce stop/go or drive thru pit stop at the end of the current lap you in. If it a pit infringement you do it and the end on the lap. Ie 2 stop one lap
Overtaking off track - no DRS and no hybrid deployment until you give the position back
With the current rules and the fact that it is so difficult to overtake, any driver might consider overtaking a rival outside the track limit and take the penalty, because it is more likely that he can get the 5 seconds advantage over his opponent than overtaking him on the track in a fair way. So I think harsher penalties like a drive-through penalty would make more sense.
The FIA should implement a long lap penalty similar to the FIM's in MotoGP, but with specific stipulations for stewards. After the first three track limits warnings, drivers should be given a drive through. If a driver receives a second round of warnings, a long lap penalty should be handed. This would discourage drivers from exceeding track limits and potentially result in a significant drop in positions. The maximum speed allowed through the long lap penalty should be 1/4 of the car's top speed. This would be easier to enforce as different tracks have different pit lane transit speeds, making it easier to distinguish between cars in the long lap penalty area and those in the pits. This would also help to differentiate between cars in the pits and the long lap penalty area.
Should have a "give the place back" penalty and if ignored a "compulsory pit stop" penalty should be issued.
For track limits it should be a "compulsory pit stop" penalty for a 4th offence.
All to be served within 2 laps.
There was a good contrast in Sunday's Indy NXT race. A driver forced Chadwick off the road which led to her dropping to the back. The penalty given was for the other driver to drop back behind Chadwick. A strong penalty that set an example F1 could take inspiration from.
Another example F1 could take from Indy NXT and IndyCar is being *much* quicker in making decisions about penalties.
My problem is that throwing 800+ kg into a corner at 300+ km/h is naturally going to make it difficult to stay within track limits. Plus cars are getting wider so tracks are getting smaller in comparison. Track limit infringement has gotten so much more common because of the cars getting heavier and wider by design and regulation. If you bring the hammer down to hard on people taking risk, the next 10years will only see more overtaking on straights and less battling, because the cars are only getting heavier past 2026.
They could add a "penalty box" somewhere on the grid in a location safe for drivers to pullover, and with some sort of protective barrier, where a car must come to a complete stop and serve up to a 10 sec penalty. There would not be the pit lane speed limit creating a larger penalty, just the deceleration/acceleration to/from a stop, and they could be served immediately.
I'll keep on saying it, I think the problem with track limit violation would be fixed if you prohibit taking any tires going out of the white lines through the corners, get rid of all the kerbs and have a harsh penalty for it.
Going off track happens all the time (except on the tracks with walls, like Monaco obviously). I'd like to see gravel-traps come back in place of the massive run-off areas we now have.
4:30 Totally agree. Go outside of the lines? Have your engine only produce 50% power or however much is deemed safe, yet severely hampering performance so that any gains plus some extra will definitely be lost. On old school tracks and street circuits the wall, gravel or grass made sure drivers stuck to the lines. Now all they get is a 'don't be naughty again!'. Unsafe release? Do a full stop and go penalty on the lap immediately following the penalty being awarded. And no 'investigation after the race'. There are technical means that can be used to detect the track limits infringements. Unsafe release too. Those will cut back on some of the most time consuming things to look into for the stewards, and then hopefully we can get back to real racing instead of 'penalty management'.
simple solution: you have 1 lap (up to the stewarding sector) to give the place back or you get a drive through/30s time penalty if its in the last couple laps. either you undo the advantage gained willingly or youre forced to give it up through the pits within 3 laps lest you risk a straight dsq, no nonsense, no room for chicanery, no room for arguments, plus it makes not handing the place back almost race ending and thus giving the place back almost immediately is the far better option
edit: as the rules are written at the moment, what haas did was perfectly fine and pretty genius, but spirit of the rules its ehhhhhhhhh, hence the need for more immediate and non-optional penalties for things like overtaking off track
One fix they could implement....maybe (not sure on the technicalities of it), but the stewards could have a button that stops the offending car from using their ERS deployment for 2-3 laps. Kind of like an inverse Fan Boost. One of the main reasons KMag was able to stay ahead was because he'd deliberately go slow through the fast twisty section of the lap and save his battery before deploying it off the last corner. This way he was able to get good drive off the final turn on to the pit straight and nullify the DRS advantage. We've seen how ERS issues can affect cars, so this could be a viable solution.
i think is a big difference between penalties for track limits,and penalties for drive too dangerous and almost put someone on the wall at high speed. gaining and advantage deserves 5 or 10 sec penalty. Drive unsafe and on limit for most of the race ,almost crashing, that deserves harsher penalty ,like drive through penalty
One problem with drive through penalties is that their severity is track dependant. Take Canada vs Silverstone for example.
In MotoGP there is a long lap penalty, basically a detour that takes times. Im not sure every track could support that for cars, but it would be an effective way of issuing penalties.
When it comes to overtaking off track it should be 10 seconds per lap you stay ahead with a black flav after 3 laps
Add a penalty box at the start of pit lane. You do something like Magnussen did, you go straight to the penalty box, serve your penalty and once it is served you can then proceed to your pit box.
All the talk about KMag and track limits penalties and pitlane penalties that just distract from the fact that the Saudi "street circuit" is an awful track, with no real corners other than some painted on chicanes, where overtakes can't happen even with 3 DRS zones.
Kevin already knew he had a 10s penalty for the collision with Albon as the team had already told him. Kevin knew that the plan was now to sacrifice himself to back up the cars behind and give Nico a free pitstop ahead. He intentionally did not give the place back after overtaking off the track, knowing he'd get a penalty, because he did not care if another 10s penalty was applied because he already knew his only goal was to help Nico.
If that were not the case, he would have just given the place back and not received a penalty.
Which is why the only proper penalty for that is a stop and go or drive through which must be served immediately.
I can't believe it took so many years for this discussion to be taken seriously. I have been complaining about this ever since they had switched from drive-through penalties to 5s penalties for track limit violations and other offences seriously interfereing with fighting for position. It was such an obvious problem to see, yet FIA not only hasn't foreseen the consequences but they refused to address the situation for years, even though we've had plenty of situations already that drivers overtook off-track and then they were able to offset the 5 seconds penalty thanks to having a clean track ahead. Or they could go away with ruining other driver's race with little consequence (having these penalties for collisions also doesn't seem right in a lot of cases). It just blows my mind that they have let it stay this way for so many years like if everything was fine.
Simple solution: give back position within one lap, or if they want a harsher penalty, stop and go to be served at the end of offending lap, otherwise, disqualification.
Maybe the Time Penalty should be replaced with like, a 'Drive Thru Penalty' where if drivers commit an offense, and receive a penalty, the next lap around they have to drive through the Pit Lane. And THEY HAVE to take the Pit Lane as soon as they get around then next lap and get to Pit Lane. No Pit Stops allowed. Just drive through Pit Lane
For me a more clever use of penalties are MotoGP’s long laps concept. You must serve it quickly (within a few laps), it is visual and on track, and you still can modulate (applying single or double long laps, for instance).
I think with penalties, I think a good idea is to use a NASCAR idea. If a penalty was given during a safety car, then they should be sent to the rear of the field. Yes the races are shorter but it still hinders the team and driver from messing about by holding up others
I think people are fine with harsher penalties until said penalties are applied to their favourite driver for a dubious infringement that might result in the loss of a race win (lots of hypotheticals I know). It's a complex issue though, that's for sure...
Track limits should be measured by electronic means. This is not difficult to do. Penalties should be immediate and should include a drive through, a stop-and-go, or a 10 second stop-and-go.
Forcing someone off the track or going off the track to overtake should be an automatic drive-through penalty that must be served in the next 2 laps. If not immediate disqualification for ignoring the stewards decision.
Add the redress as a penalty. Force the offending driver to drop back behind the one they passed incorrectly within X laps
This is a very simple issue to fix. If you are issued a time penalty then you must serve it within 2 laps in the pit within a designated area. You cannot benefit from it by changing tires for instance, it's a forced pitstop and no service for the car. Thats the true deterrent