Is a Pre-Flashed PCI SATA Card Worth It For Your PowerPC Mac?
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- Опубликовано: 2 июл 2021
- Thanks PCBWay.com - The PowerMac G4 MDD comes with some of the fastest IDE available on Macs: ATA-100. Using a cheap IDE to SATA adapter results in blazing fast performance. But, can we push our speeds even further with a dedicated PCI to SATA controller card, flashed for Mac?
Also, is buying a pre-flashed SATA card from eBay worth it? Let's find out together!
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#Macintosh #PowerPC #G4 
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Sean, save that SATA card for your Cheesegrater. The gen 1 SATA controller in those things can't support SATA3 SSDs, but that card will get you there.
They can, you just have to be very careful about buying an SSD. OWC SSD's work, but they are very pricey. I've good luck with Timetec SSD's. which are much more reasonably priced.
Silicon Power SSDs, the cheapest not-too-sketchy ones on Amazon (at least in Canada) work with the G5, despite being SATA3. I wish I knew that before overpaying for an older SSD that I knew would work with the G5s controller.
10:24 I wouldn't run storage benchmarks while spotlight is indexing! It's the dot in the magnifying glass icon, which is gone in the next clip.
good catch!
Note: The hacked SiI3112 Wiebetech ROM does *not* work under any Classic Mac OS, OS X only! You need to swap the ROM for a larger one (AM29LV040B, PM39LV040, MX29LV040) and use the full SeriTek 1S2 ROM for Classic Mac OS support!
Highly skilled and talented.
My suggestion for this is to find a card with a SOP8 or DIP8 rom chip. $10 will get you 10 SOP to DIP adapters, and almost any old pre-2005 post-1999 motherboard will have a DIP8 socketed bios chip large enough... I have a literal box of them as I strip them from any unsaveable board. You also need an eeprom programmer, you cant flash the card with the utility if you do this as the flash type will be wrong... unless you are REALLY lucky, lol, but I have successfully created 2 cards that have socketed DIP8 1meg bios chips with PC or mac roms, so I can swap the rom with a chip puller and use them for testing (I run an electronics recycling facility)
ALSO: SIL3114 is the same deal, flash it with the SIL3112 rom and ports 0 and 1 will work on mac, ports 2 and 3 will be non functional though, so you cant have a 4 port sata card in mac this way :)
ye and those dont grow on trees sadly
Not anymore you don't.
I love me some new Action Retro every Saturday morning.
"im thinking of drilling a grate in here, and then ill get really 'grate' airflow"
i see what you did there. i lol'd.
Nothing beats well informed and narrated shenanigans
As a fellow Mac OS9 Lives member and Mac G4 enthusiast, your videos have been a joy to watch and to get further ideas for my Quicksilver and MDD builds. My primary focus is music production and using them to manage a room full of vintage recording gear and synths. Thank you for posting these videos!
That was an incredible segue to the sponsor! I actually watched the entire thing because you deserve my respect for that clever scripting :)
Hahaha thanks!
I literally cant get enough of your videos ! Allways happy to see your newest adventures
I owned a 2001 1ghz version of this computer. Still to this day my favorite computer I owned. It was a tank and ran 10.3 like a champ.
Hey, I'm pretty sure that you need to put that fan "card" on the other side, this way it is just pulling air from the backplate instead of pushing it on the chip side.
@Robert F There isn't really a good way to do it. The case was just not designed for airflow through or around the expansion cards. The only fan pushes air right through the CPU fins, and the idea of adding a fan to the intake grill isn't likely to improve anything either.
Needs another intake path up top, and a baffle to guide air through the expansion cards and out the back.
Great content as always. Appreciate your various series.
I thought for sure this was going to surprise us. keep up the shenanigans!
So here are some important things to note these cards have to have a larger rom chip for Os 8-9 support. You can flash it to work with OS X though
You've become the "Mad Mac Mod Guy" to me, love your content, and this is from a Windows guy! Modding that GeForce card to work with the G4 was so interesting! Keep up the madness!
I love when youtube has an exact answer to a highly specific question I have. IDE to SATA it is, thanks!
A great way to wake up on a Saturday morning!
I never had any Apple hardware, but, DAMN, I love your videos!
Feel the same overall. I got an exception in the form of a lovely eMac, but that's a drop in the ocean of otherwise PC stuff I have (much of it junky and of dubious value, btw).
same
Fantastic
The machine will feel a lot faster due to random I/O getting faster. I don't know how that controller handles SATA but R/W queueing will also feel dramatically better compared to IDE in a good case.
Try running Virtual PC 7 on the G4!
I would replace those PCI fans with one of the exhaust type ones. The little squirrel cage fans that actually vent out the PCI slot (examples: Fox-1, Deepcool Xfan, Evercool FC-2000-TH, Thermaltake TMG SL1). That will cause a low pressure zone around the gpu drawing more cool air towards it, rather than just circulating already hot air around an enclosed space.
Also an idea, when you install the SATA adapter for the SSD, get one of those slim round IDE cables so its easier to route.
Maybe also, if the fan in the motherboard tray is a bit anemic, swap it out for a chunkier one that can move some more air.
I really dig this era of classic mac and PC modding, where you have just enough new tech that you can beef them up beyond what they ever intended, but its not totally straightforward how to do it.
Happy 22K subs :)
your vids on the MDD have lead me to decide I will keep my MDD FW400 machine. I was going to sell it, now, Im going to keep it. I just hope my PSU keeps ticking, I dont want to loose my matching monitor.
I had similar results with an iMac G4 running an SSD hooked to a IDE to SATA converter. The performance improvements are negligible but the time to boot is much longer plus sometimes it wouldn't boot at all.
That quick release is SLICK!!!
Amazing, i love that powermac, is gold.
Back when Apple still made interesting machines.
I've been erring on whether to try this on my g4 mdd, but I have settled on the pata100 port with an ide to SATA adaptor.. that os9 compatibility is important I think since it's the last os9 machine
Weird idea: that G4 has a 64-bit/33 MHz expansion slots. Which should enable 266MB/s. A RocketRaid 1740 can be had on eBay for $17-20 and enables SATA II. High point also made those cards MacOS bootable if I’m not mistaken - in both RAID and single drive configs.
Right now there's only one RocketRaid 1740 and it's $180 :(
Sean I Wondered That To If There Would Be Any Speed Gain You Answered My Question Great Video
Interesting, I would have expected a more dramatic improvement. Of course, I've never used one on an MDD. I've used them on G4's ranging from the Sawtooth to the Quicksilver. The speed bump from ATA 66 is considerable. I've never really worried about slower boot times, I'm more concerned with performance once it's booted. This was valuable, I won't be upgrading my MDD's to SATA as a recult of this.
But you get the benefit vom more IOP/s, so not too bad.
man i wished i waited to get one of those. i got the quicksilver and had some issues with it until it died on me. i did upgrade it from 933Mhz to a dual 1ghz machine. but it wasn’t the same after i found it was over heating in summer and a repair shop had a look at it. the MDD is a beast for sure
If the PCI Ports are 100 or 133 I wouldn't imagine it would be faster than ATA-100 as they would be similarly clocked at the same speeds. Love your videos, these are things I dreamed of as a Kid, building the fastest Mac possible. Really cool to see it.
I love SSD docks! I have two or four slot Icy Dock units in almost all of my machines, ranging from an 800 MHz Athlon to a 6700K, hot swappable where I can. I use SSDs the way I used floppies in the 90s! Sadly, modern cases don't have the external 5.25" or 3.5" bays these things fit into. I don't know how much longer they'll make these docks.
Check out the Black Magic Design 4 port SSD dock. It’s one fine beast!
I could see this being used for media stuff! especially mass storage
I love this! Got a similar Power Mac G4 that I want to use, but unfortunately it’s pretty unstable and gets random kernel panics (doesn’t matter whether I’m using it or idling with screensaver). So it’s basically sitting under my desk as decoration. 😂 Oh well...
Has he done an AGP Radeon HD 3850 yet? Might need a custom ROM and driver?
After I saw the series from IMNC I thought no one else would dare push a computer in this form factor so hard yet I stand corrected (that blue and white build that he did is absolutely gorgeous though)
Ready grate airflow
The Sonnet PCI SATA card is still the best, but so hard to find. You can boot into system 7 natively with it. I was lucky enough to buy a G4 that came with one inside a few years ago. It's especially cool in a Power Macintosh 9600 running 7, 8, and 9 on an m.2 SSD.
I actually had that 64bit sonnet Tempo card not too long ago, but returned it because it wasn’t bootable and caused Leopard to kernel panic.
Would be great to see more about OS 9 Builds like this and their performace per dollar for vintange users.
You might also keep an eye out for the Acard AEC-6290M and AEC-6293M.
Although, as far as I can tell, the 6290M is really just the 6280M (PATA) hardware with a PATA to SATA chip added just before the SATA port. OTOH, that may be all SATA is in hardware anyway. Stands to reason the chips execute on parallel registers internally and convert for interfacing.
Powerfull powermac in jpu gune and even sata???? Sean, you are a mad mac man
For OS 9, you should try to boot from the internal IDE port and see if you can see the SATA drive. It may be supported for mouting, but not booting because the card probably lack OS 9 bootable driver in the ROM.
Oh god I miss Leopard. And when Firefox looked like that. And that system font.
I edited my Dock files so the outline was the same colour as the background, and the indicator was bright blue. I think I might’ve done the tweak that put a line instead of the zebra crossing motif as well, but it’s hard to remember. For a while I messed around with custom textures on the 3D dock too (same indicator colour though, of course it was oval instead of circle there).
I notice it’s only the 4k writes that are slower. Presumably the cache in the SATA controller is larger than that and you have a delay for a cache flush. While IDE has no such problem. But for 256k (so large file transfers) it was about 25% faster (100 up from 80, 20 gain, 25% of 80)
Of note is that the G4 towers have 64-bit PCI, but flashed cards are generally 32-bit; the theoretical maximum throughput (e.g. by using a PCI-X or RAID card) is actually 266MB/s.
I'd place your hot-swap slot furthest from your GPU when it goes back into the system for better airflow, less direct heat exchange so you don't eat up your gains from adding the fans. Hopefully getting the right firmware helps with the PCI SATA issues. ~15% improvement on any metric isn't bad though when it comes to aging hardware.
Not sure about the 7800GS you’re using, but with the 6200, you don’t need to disable the temp sensor with a custom card bios. You just need to remove a temp sensor kext from Leopard (to avoid the long delays at startup).
I was hoping you would’ve tried the FirmTek SiriTek 1eVE2/1V4/1eVE4/etc (which supports OS9 booting and is a PCI-X card, backwards compatible with 32 or 64 bit PCI slots.
This is a good video demonstration tho, and it’s possible that card may not be much faster.
I want it for my g4 which does not have ATA100 anyway
Check your CPU usage when transferring files. IDE is more processor intensive, especially when you are doing multiple reads and writes at the same time. I am betting under system load you will see SATA performs much better.
This is like Thing got really into old Macs...
This seems to only make sense for secondary drives, as master/slave handshakes in IDE are probably bad.
I found a Chinese no-name Sil3112 card for a few dollars... worked perfectly on Mac, and booted OS X and MacOS9 as well without any flashing (with a few seconds delay at boot to poll drives). Sadly, there was no manufacturer info to give you...
The PowerMac G4’s as far as I know have several 64-bit PCI bus connectors. From my research, if you were to find a PCI-X SATA card with an SIL3124 chip, and flash it with a firmware that is compatible (can’t remember which one from the top of my head but there is an SIL3124 firmware for the Mac), then you’d have MUCH more higher SATA speeds that would far exceed IDE.
PCI-X is backwards compatible (and someone on Reddit managed to get his PCI-X SIL3234 based card working in a Sawtooth) and there’s at least one card with an SIL3134 chip made for a PowerMac G4 that allied booting if I remember correctly that SHOULD work on other SIL3124 PCI-X SATA cards.
They’re going to be hard to find and they’re going to be pricey but the performance gains would actually be great. Your SSD by the way may not have a D-RAM cache which impacts perfect or it may have a lackluster D-RAM cache.
That's the Firmtek SeriTek 2SE4. There are generic SiL3124 cards that are basically the same design but they come with only a 64kb EEPROM, to flash the SeriTek Ron you'd need to desolder the EEPROM and install a bigger chip.
@@MistahMatzah wouldn’t it be faster?
Absolutely.
I wonder how much of a hassle it would be to port a current Linux driver for that particular SATA PCI card over to Leopard. I guess you could give a try to Voidlinux PPC and run some benchmarks. Thanks for the content.
I wonder if an Sil3124 based card would work in these. I think it uses PCI-X instead of 64bit PCI though so it may get limited to the standard 32bit PCI... I was gonna build something like this, even wanted to watercool it but I fried the CPUs from overclocking somehow. I even found some old french forum posts (which I of course had to put through google translate) about replacing a clock crystal to bring the system bus to 172MHz.
J’ai bien fait de conserver ma carte Sonnet! Elle est encore actuellement en service dans mon MDD dual@1,42Ghz. Velociraptor 10k inside….et depuis hier un SSD crucial BX100. C’est curieux j’obtiens de meilleurs résultats que toi sous xbench 1,3 au niveau des taux de transfert. Cela viens peut être du SSD.
Belle bidouille encore une fois! 👍👌
You should install a fan controller into this thing. That way you can add more fans to it to increase the cooling.
Ricky Bobby: I don’t know what to do with my hands
This guy:
Where did you get that sata quick release holder?
Could you do a vid of Amiga OS on it plz , And maybe a vid of US Army OS which it can run are so wiki does say.
Hello I just have a question. I used to use these SATA cards in the past and worked fine but they show the drives as SCSI. This made the drives created in OS 9 with IDE the need for reformat in order to install the SCSI driver in the drive partition. Also what about trim? I do not know if there is any implementation of trim for macos 9 or MacOS X until 10.6 So all PPC macs cannot use a SSD for a long time.
One funny thing about those Silicon Image chips is that their font makes it impossible to distinguish capital i from lowercase L. Using all lowercase to make it clearer, I believe it's actually sii3114, not sil3114. Even things like the Linux kernel tend to use sil.
Can you add a link for that cool quick release SATA cage?
I think the biggest reason going for a sata card would be to use native sata features such as NCQ.
Do you know if Leopard supports that and whether the drive is running in AHCI or IDE mode?
Hey I think for at least your very first baseline ATA 100 XBench run, Spotlight was indexing. Take a look at the footage again, paying attention to the magnifying glass if the top right corner. Unless my eyes deceive me, a little dot is flashing indicating that Spotlight was working. It didn’t appear to be indexing when you cut to the results, so not sure if that impacted anything across runs.I know you mentioned some disparity amongst the results, that might be why. It wasn’t working during the SATA testing that I could see. The IDE still holds up well anyways and the conclusion isn’t terribly altered, but just thought I’d point it out.
What about using a SCSI controller that will fit in the Apple PowerMac and then use a SCSI2SATA adapter.
I've had problems with sil3112 in pure DOS, tho works well with windows and linux. Also, most sil3112 cards use older firmware that newer firmware fixes LBA48 support and also used small sized ROMs. I might recommend the sil3512 for pure DOS and chances are those firmwares are LBA48 compliant.
...
I went and got a bunch of cards from ebay... and decided to replace their roms to varying degrees of failures and fails... heh,
Find a iRAM and run the OS off of that. You can use a SATA drive for backing it up.
This will be great for my Quicksilver which is UATA 66. I can get these cards unflashed for just £10. Overall cheaper and faster than an IDE to SATA adapter.
You don’t need to buy a Sonnet card to a get 64-bit PCI SATA card. There are several SIL3124 based cards out there that have a large enough ROM (4-Mbit) to flash the SeriTek firmware on them. I’ve got two currently (if you’re interested I don’t need two); however, I don’t use them in my MDD as there seems to be some bug that causes file transfers from the ATA-33 bus to freeze finder under 10.4 and 10.5.
I ended up using SCSI instead with a NOS 15K HDD. Benches with that SATA card were max ~180MB/s (it’s SATA II).
Does SeriTek's own firmware utility let you do that? And which cards?
It does as long as the NOR flash chip is the same as what is used on the SeriTek cards.
My dear friend, take a look at sata mode x AHCI mode, maybe this helps improving performance. Sorry for my poor english.
I wonder if the SATA drive is faster than the PCI bus in that machine. I've run into that on some classics where the drive is slower than the bus speed, so increasing controller or CPU speed made no difference.
I cannot help but wonder if a better usage for that sata card would be if installing an (sata) HDD (not SSD) with a large cache RAM on it (like 128MB or whatever) for the purpose of swap file. Whether it was OSX or not, a synthetic test using linux might show if that is the case. For gaming this is all only "somewhat" useful. For doing serious work like video edits, being able to thrash an HDD all day (unlike NAND) for a swap file could be useful... so I think there is an advantageous use for it. Well, in theory anyway.
Replace the fans with noctua system fans and you'll probly never hear them at all. Noctua also supports a variable speed controller so you can dial the speed down to barely audible if you want but those fans are going to be super quiet before you even put that in the mix!
Which model is your mac? I’ve got the same one
What if you had 2 or 3 of these cards, install all of them and put 2 or 3 ssd in a raid array? Leopard supports raid right? Maybe you could get faster drive speeds that way?
Did you enable trim on the drive…
Wow, where do you find the parts for your Macs ?
Short answer: if you want a high-speed SSD and/or high-capacity hard drives or you just can't find a suitable ATA drive, yes these are a good idea; sometimes certain drives don't run properly on PATA-SATA adapters but work fine on a proper SATA card. If you're just planning to put an old 80GB SATA drive on it, then it's not worth it unless you get the OS 9 compatible version to use in a beige Mac instead.
Are the LED's on the MDD and the Monitor blinking like they are in sleep mode, a side effect of the replacement power supply? I seem to remember using that giant brick for the Studio Display adapter with a mac mini, and can't remember if the monitor did that all the time as well.
This computer’s lights are flashing faster than they should be. Not sure why. Normally the cpu and the monitor lights slowly fade on/off together when system is a sleep. When computer is on, both lights are constant on.
I just did a quick google to see if I could find the datasheet for the SIL3112, to see if it's compatible with 64-bit PCI-X, but all I could find was user manuals for cards. Unfortunately it looks like the MDD only has a 33MHz PCI-X bus, so it's not like you could mod the card to run at 66MHz and get a speed boost. So that's another disappointment, although you kind-of get what you pay for.
Speaking of getting what you paid for, did you get a new desk? I remember seeing a glass top desk in your previous videos, but this one looked wooden.
You should see if it's possible to attach two SATA SSD drives in RAID 0, just for the fun of it! I think I remember IMNC trying this a few years ago in a B&W G3 with good results. The best-case scenario would provide some very high speeds and extract some additional value from this overpriced SATA card.
So most machines will only have a single PCI Controller on the motherboard that all the cards on the bus need to share. Not sure about the G4 MDD but I suspect that adding 2x SATA controller cards and creating a RAID 0 setup will actually be slower than just a single drive because of the contention between the 2x cards on the PCI bus.
@@gerarddiederikdejong You make an interesting point: I suppose this could be problematic, but (unless there is some documentation of this phenomenon in the MDD) it may be worth a try (at least for fun anyway) if these SATA cards can be purchased unflashed for ~$15. It sounds like the PCI bus on this PowerMac G4 is the bottleneck for the SATA card at the moment ---I wonder if Apple's implementation of software RAID 0 allows for RAID between two different drive interfaces (I'm pretty sure multi-interface arrays were part of the original RAID standard). As there is only one really fast IDE port in the MDD, if you could RAID the SATA SSD together with the fast IDE SSD, it would still be as fast as 2x fast IDE SSDs which would be a great improvement. (I bet this would somehow break OS9 compatibility, just because OS9 is so very picky, but you never know! At the very least, you could always just use a third SSD for OS9 --it's not like OS9 was taking advantage of that speed anyway...)
Yep it works - assuming the card has the boot firmware. Or a SCSI card with 2 SATA adapters.
7:20 this looks like the attempt of a guy that just started at the GPU factory: "Hey Boss, look my first GPU is ready!"
One question I have - and I've never been a mac guy - is how are the PCI slots configured architecturally on a mac of this vintage? I have recollections, perhaps faulty, of Wintel machines of that era having all of the PCI slots, integrated sound, the IDE/PATA connectors, and all of the USB ports running through the single south-bridge (gigabit ethernet having moved to the northbridge which also did memory control and graphics starting in 1999). In Windows, I seem to recall that the connection between the north-bridge and the south-bridge was limited to 266 megabytes per second. Is there a similar bottle-neck on the Power PC systems of the era?
IIRC the first PCI Macs used an Intel chip/derivative. I imagine there's similar issues here, especially since there's no alternative bus like the PC had with ISA and now PCIe.
@@amirpourghoureiyan1637 most of them used controller chips by Broadcom, TI, or agere. Intel chips were rarely used until the CPU switch and then only until Indians fucked up Intel beyond all recognition and dumped them for Apple’s own M1 chip. Stop bullshitting.
How about trying an Adaptec AHA29160 64-bit SCSI card with a 15K-RPM U320 SCSI HDD? You can buy a cheap PC-card and flash it to mac easily. The late-era Ultra320 Drives are extremely fast (and loud). Maybe just for comparison to what was possible with SCSI?
someone loves to use this hand gesture 👈 a lot
count how many times in this video he does this 👈👈👈
Where did you order the quick release enclosure from?
Please create the best but in a powemac g5
Can you try out how well your insane G4 runs Coreplayer? Coreplayer for Mac is the most optimized video player for H.264 replay, taking massive advantage of both multiple CPUs and Altivec!... I do wonder if your G4 monster is capable of replaying 1080p H.264 video in Coreplayer. I know my Dual 1.6 GHz 7447A Sonnet Digital Audio can replay 720p H.264 in Coreplayer, and your MDD has 25% faster CPU and FSB clockspeed and twice the cache!
I bought one of these cards, it came Flash and it works in both 9. 2.2 and X. I also install the Blu-ray Drive on the sata, it reads it just fine for data transfer
Thanks for your information. I have the unbranded version coming for G4, and hoping to get OS 9 booted up. Not a big deal if not, as I can always just use the PATA drive in the original manner.... It is a experience and memory lane anyways at that moment.
@@paristo I have not had any issues booting iOS 9 or 8 on this card. I did run into issues with 10.1 and 10.2 not detecting it. 10.4 saw it right away. If you get the PC version of the card, it's a very easy Flash
@@beardedgaming3741 Thank you for information. I understand the process to flash it, but not yet downloaded the firmware etc for it. Waiting the card to first come.
Interesting about that 10.1 and 10.2 that what would be causing it. As would be interesting to get early OS X working as well.
@@paristo I highly recommend using a external flashing device rather than plugging into the computer and writing that way. It's just a lot simpler and it's way easier to unbrick it if something goes wrong
@@beardedgaming3741 Thanks, but for the price of the programmer one can buy multiple cards if for some reason flashing fails. If one does want to do multiple different flashing operations to different devices, then it makes sense.
it can be the ssd u have ... perhaps a evo 860 or something do better or not ?
I have that same unbranded SATA card and it does work on Mac OS 9. I’m not sure what’s up with that particular card you have there. Maybe you can try reinstalling OS 9 with the SATA card.
If it still doesn’t work, I can send you one of my spare SATA card to you that’s been tested on OS 9.
Thank you!! Did you flash the rom on yours, or did it come compatible?
@@ActionRetro It came pre-flashed compatible. I got it from a Hong Kong seller. I used it for my Molar Mac and Power Mac 9600 with OS 8 and 9, all the way to Leopard. I’m not using the card anymore because I replaced it with a Sonnet Tempo ATA 133. It’s yours if you want it. :)
@Action Retro @sixteenbitify Yes, OS 9 doesn’t really like it when you change the drive’s bus or jumper settings post-installation, while OS X takes it in stride. I have managed to get around this by cloning the drive via Disk Utility, erasing the original, and then restoring the drive. Make sure the “Erase Destination” box is unchecked. Otherwise, it does a block by block restore, which preserves the OS 9 boot permissions issue.
@@ActionRetro Try and run the format utility in OS9 and see if the drive shows up separately, it might just need "blessing" like most things Macintosh
It depends on whether he flashed the card with the TSATA firmware or the Wiebe firmware. The latter only supports OSX. The former supports Classic and X, but usually requires one to change out the flash chip on the card, as the firmware checks the Flash Chip ID at boot time.
where did u get the pci ssd mount
Bummer! I bought 4 of these cards and I'm just waiting for them to arrive. Can you advise did your eBay seller have the word 'local' in their name ? I'm worried now.
Can this sata SSD be put into raid0 with a second SSD connected by IDE?
Yes. And check out Red Rock Technologies.
"Minecraft-which runs notoriously poorly on PowerPC Macs" I mean, the fact that minecraft runs at all on computers decades older than the game itsself is amazing, but no shit haha