This is very true. I use to add a bunch of hi hat loops/ shakers to fill up space and while all my friends liked it and it sounded good. I could totally see people had a hard time dancing when I performed it live. The simpler groves where everything has its own space and purpose made people dance every time.
Love this concept and def got me thinking about when and when not to incorporate drum loops into my productions - that being said, as a former almost professional Greek dancer, I just get up and dance to my tracks to see if it works or not haha
It depends on the track, Piero Pirup used a shit ton of layered percussion and Hi Hat loops on his track „We don't need - Club Edit“ and it was a nr1 smash hit because it just woeked
very helpful stuff. i learned this a few years ago but realizing how important rythm is (not just for drums) improved my songwriting so much and it also helps everything else like mixing for example.
I wish i seen this when i first started, instead i was told that adding more loops was good because it fills up space and adds more interest but never told the downsides like competing rhythms.
It does fill space, this only works for genres like this (Tech house). But if you want to make Trance, Techno, House, EDM, your track can sound very empty if you don't fill the space you have. Sidechain and processing MAKE the track
As always concise and to the point. I'd love some deeper dives into rhythm building and how you can work with velocities, bc this tutorial doesn't talk about how ghost notes etc can be used to add subtle rhythm without necessarily making things messy.
There is a lot more to it, ghost notes, sound selection, layering, mixing, panning... but a nice tip lining up the groove elements to not make it too complicated for the genre.
Damn give the guy a break, he’s trying to provide some value and it all boils down to keeping the groove simple and not cluttering it up with too many competing rhythms. It doesn’t matter if you use loops or not. If you do use a loop just be mindful to not clutter the groove with a bunch of random drum loops that are going to overlap and sound like 💩
Absolutely great advice. It takes longer to build loops yourself but I've never done anything else. Without control of the swing, velocity and basic pattern for each sound, it's going to sound messy. oh, and knowing when to stop adding things is critical. Just keep working on it and it does start sounding better.
I had the idea of trying to put a mini note for every drum hit to make sure complicated rhythms sounded good but it’s really cool to see somebody else recommends doing it.
Dude I hope you're rich off RUclips. This is the first time Ive watched your video. You have a nerd understanding of everything but your music is dope! You're not over the top analytical and your video quality is top notch. You gotta be spending a ton of time on making these vids. Great work bud
This is very important. You have made a similiar video for this tip and I have been implementing that to my Trance tracks. Clear improvement. And if I ever use something out of main groove, I use it in the most background so you dont basically hear, but feel. Amazing tip and totally recommend.
it is a interesting topic, I'm not sure if I fully agree with you. There is a lot of house music that got a LOT of different rhythm's layered on top of one another. also rhytms can make space for each other depending on frequency (band) and panorama
Yeah I think it's fine if you have extra percussion rhythms that are lower in the mix and fill out space. But all my favorite house songs have a main repeating rhythm using the main elements that I can pick up on
Agreed, this is nonsense, sometimes drum loops can totally transform and improve things, totally depends on the loop, its groove, how that interacts with programmed drum sounds etc. To make a blanket statement of "drum loops make your track worse" is pure clickbait dumbness
your style of explaination is exactly what i am looking for ... and damn i like your style of producing ..... i have the feeling that you really know what you are doing..... some other YT producers doesnt have that ..... greetings from vienna ps : i can imagine you have finished some music school or are you a self-taught guy like me.... ?
In Logic it’s very simple, use the Groove Track feature. Assign one of your tracks as the main Groove Track and assign all the other tracks to follow the main Groove Track simply by adding a ☑️ mark next to the track. This can be done in seconds and you never have to go into the Piano Roll.
In your opinion, which track should typically be the main groove track for best results? The percussion loop track, the vocal track, bassline track, piano/guitar chord track? Thanks.
@@PETSWORLD_ Generally I think the percussion loop makes the most sense to use as the Groove track, simply because it usually has the most subdivisions that all the other instruments can "latch" onto. You really have to use your discretion though, most importantly you have to choose drum loops that would best serve a role as the "Master" Groove track. A lot of what Big Z mentioned applies here, choose the percussion loop that sounds the cleanest and provides the strongest foundation of your song's overall groove.
Drum loops don’t make your track worse. Title should warn people to be careful what loops they choose. You have to tastefully select loops that work with your track when you use them, not just random ones. Title just makes it sound like they shouldn’t be used but great point and good technique
Honestly it should be less about just selecting loops and more about making sure your loops match the groove, and this could be achieved with ANY loop if you simply chop it up and clean it up. Remove whatever competes with the groove so you're creating the space in between
Great video! The part about simplifying each element into a simple hit in a separate pattern, so you can hear how it sounds with no frills and just get a handle on if the rhythmic health is brilliant!
you can do that. But if you want to add those, you need to create space for them. He's oversimplifying for sure, but you can literally hear him using syncopation in the example he provides at the end. Stay smart, homie
In ableton you can "extract groove" from one element and apply that quantization to other tracks. Great way to align the rhythm of a loop that you like the texture of with the groove of the track
Thanks so much for this video. Knew there had to be some level of logic at work in even the most complex of rhythms but hadn’t been able to find any info/tutorials on the subject. Will be cracking open the DAW later to experiment.
I paid alot more attention to this after a friend of mine said that one of my tracks sounded like two songs playing together. Was easy to fix when someone just pointed it out like that.
Actually if you're on Logic simply enable time flex on the loops, quantize them to whatever quantization you'd like or you can even use a loop as master quantize and have the other loops follow that quantization .
At first I was thinking, “Hey, ableton’s groove feature kinda fixes these problems.” But nah, the whole point is about breaking down your overall rhythm to its key elements and not overcrowding them. Great process, gonna help me a lot.
I agree with the general idea of this video but I also having a whole bunch of different loops can add some interesting things. I do think that there is a best of both worlds solution for this: Start with layering all the loops you think sound cool. Then listen through it carefully and try to pick up on which loop is adding the most at every moment. Then it's just a matter of muting the other loops at that moment. You'll just get the bits of each loop whenever they add to the groove and get rid of the clutter too. It also manages to somehow sound more varied as each loop gets the time to shine.
I've listened to a lot of tracks where people use loops and ethnic instruments and I don't think that you need to "humanize" absolutely everything. There is just no difference between sloppy drums and quantized drums (actually, people learn all their life to play good, not sloppy). So, when everything is electronic - yes, it definitely makes sense. But when listeners know that you are playing instrument that you will add to a looped track - I don't think that adding irregularities will improve the track. This is just my opinion, but thank you so much for the video, very informative as always!!!!
It's a fun idea, but using the same sound for all of the beats is 100% going to make it sound messy. The first 3 minutes of this video is a service announcement for SideChain. Also depending on the genre, using loops is fine, if you process them correctly
explains why adding sample loop after sample loop to a project is bad practice (great job on that!) - proceeds with pitching a sale for a sample loop collection 🤦♀
@@anndrew_gi Nowhere in the video does he say "all drum loops make your track worse" nor "programming drums automatically makes your track's rhythm better" nor "only my loops will give your track perfect rhythm". If anything he gives a few tips encouraging critical thought about a concept that can be applied broadly to all music production, as well as a technique for analyzing it. You can still screw up on giving your track a cohesive groove if you program the parts yourself, it's just this tends to be more of an issue with loops because inexperienced or lazy producers may throw a bunch of loops together without considering cohesion. With that said, I think a lot of complaints about the title could be solved if it was instead called something like "Drum Loops (Can) Make Your Track Worse". Titles in media are supposed to grab attention and give an idea of the subject matter. The current title is relevant but a bit too misleading.
He's more saying that you need to clean things up in order to achieve an effective groove. If you stack up *his* loops but don't pay attention to the sonic space you're creating, it'll still sound messy. @@anndrew_gi
I typically accomplish a simple arrangement by starting from lots of overlapping grooves and then slowly taking out some slices of it until it is reduced enough. that way the groove doesn't form in the most obvious way but insteads finds a new path that I also haven't heard before sometimes. slightly different swings can be a good thing if 2 sounds are overlapping, but maybe not so much in tight genres like yours
Great advice! Honestly so true and not something I see people discussing much on RUclips. Thank you for this video. Most of the time I feel simple is better. When it comes to layering, we must ask ourselves with each layer we add, is this supposed to blend with other layers, or contrast?
Two issues with loops also - if you want to switch it up a bit, like remove the claps, remove the hi hat etc, you can't, unless you try chopping it up and it being awkward. Then you've got the levels - you can't control each bit, it's either all louder, or all quieter
good points, but (unnecessarily so) slightly manipulative to only "unleash" bass drum and main backbeat in the positive examples and keeping them turned off in the negative ones :-D
Hi Big Z - I bought the serum presets pack modern synths 2 from your online shop and it only allowed 2x download attempts. Both failed me and stopped downloading and now I can't finish downloading. How can I get the product now?
Thats epic advice and a great tutorial. Really struggled with this concept for years but i love how you mentronomed the rhythm very easy to then keep it all in tune. What about things likes stabs and chord would you also add the same swing?
Simplify simplify simplify. This is SO overlooked when discussing composition. Thank you for an on point reminder.
So true. Some people literally think you need 100 tracks in a song.
Unless you are Frank Zappa
@@adirsab 🤣
This is very true. I use to add a bunch of hi hat loops/ shakers to fill up space and while all my friends liked it and it sounded good. I could totally see people had a hard time dancing when I performed it live. The simpler groves where everything has its own space and purpose made people dance every time.
Ambient jungle from the 90s enters the chat:
To be fair modern dance scenes require modern musical solutions
Love this concept and def got me thinking about when and when not to incorporate drum loops into my productions - that being said, as a former almost professional Greek dancer, I just get up and dance to my tracks to see if it works or not haha
Electronic music doesn't need to be danceable you normie
It depends on the track, Piero Pirup used a shit ton of layered percussion and Hi Hat loops on his track „We don't need - Club Edit“ and it was a nr1 smash hit because it just woeked
very helpful stuff. i learned this a few years ago but realizing how important rythm is (not just for drums) improved my songwriting so much and it also helps everything else like mixing for example.
I wish i seen this when i first started, instead i was told that adding more loops was good because it fills up space and adds more interest but never told the downsides like competing rhythms.
It does fill space, this only works for genres like this (Tech house). But if you want to make Trance, Techno, House, EDM, your track can sound very empty if you don't fill the space you have. Sidechain and processing MAKE the track
@@sorenandrews1078 It works if you edit the audio to standardize the swing... THAT'S the biggest thing here imo
This brother giving out secret sauce for free. My guy :)
For real 🔥
As always concise and to the point. I'd love some deeper dives into rhythm building and how you can work with velocities, bc this tutorial doesn't talk about how ghost notes etc can be used to add subtle rhythm without necessarily making things messy.
There is a lot more to it, ghost notes, sound selection, layering, mixing, panning... but a nice tip lining up the groove elements to not make it too complicated for the genre.
Nice! Thanks for the great advice... Syncopation always makes a groove groovier.
Great information and often overlooked. A deep dive into a better production. Thank you for sharing.
never thought about that. very simple but effectiv! thanks BigZ
Damn give the guy a break, he’s trying to provide some value and it all boils down to keeping the groove simple and not cluttering it up with too many competing rhythms. It doesn’t matter if you use loops or not. If you do use a loop just be mindful to not clutter the groove with a bunch of random drum loops that are going to overlap and sound like 💩
Absolutely great advice. It takes longer to build loops yourself but I've never done anything else. Without control of the swing, velocity and basic pattern for each sound, it's going to sound messy. oh, and knowing when to stop adding things is critical. Just keep working on it and it does start sounding better.
I had the idea of trying to put a mini note for every drum hit to make sure complicated rhythms sounded good but it’s really cool to see somebody else recommends doing it.
Simple and Great Tip! Thank you!
Thank you for this! Great help for realizing what's going on when choosing loops.
Dude I hope you're rich off RUclips. This is the first time Ive watched your video. You have a nerd understanding of everything but your music is dope! You're not over the top analytical and your video quality is top notch. You gotta be spending a ton of time on making these vids. Great work bud
I think this is the dynamite I've been looking for....
Thank you Big Z...
Thanks for this, I used this technique to finally nail the lead riff on a track I'd been banging my head against a wall to make work 😅
This is very important. You have made a similiar video for this tip and I have been implementing that to my Trance tracks. Clear improvement. And if I ever use something out of main groove, I use it in the most background so you dont basically hear, but feel.
Amazing tip and totally recommend.
Really loved this video lesson! Keep it up man! 👏🏼
it is a interesting topic, I'm not sure if I fully agree with you. There is a lot of house music that got a LOT of different rhythm's layered on top of one another. also rhytms can make space for each other depending on frequency (band) and panorama
Yeah this concept is stupid
Yeah I think it's fine if you have extra percussion rhythms that are lower in the mix and fill out space. But all my favorite house songs have a main repeating rhythm using the main elements that I can pick up on
Agreed, this is nonsense, sometimes drum loops can totally transform and improve things, totally depends on the loop, its groove, how that interacts with programmed drum sounds etc. To make a blanket statement of "drum loops make your track worse" is pure clickbait dumbness
@@BigZMusic yeah for like world's most derrivate beatport house music maybe
@@1wibble230Good lord stop being so defensive. The main point of this video is solid
your style of explaination is exactly what i am looking for ... and damn i like your style of producing ..... i have the feeling that you really know what you are doing..... some other YT producers doesnt have that ..... greetings from vienna ps : i can imagine you have finished some music school or are you a self-taught guy like me.... ?
In Logic it’s very simple, use the Groove Track feature. Assign one of your tracks as the main Groove Track and assign all the other tracks to follow the main Groove Track simply by adding a ☑️ mark next to the track. This can be done in seconds and you never have to go into the Piano Roll.
I've found that feature to rarely work properly.
@@Skrenja I dunno. It's always worked reliably on my computer.
In your opinion, which track should typically be the main groove track for best results? The percussion loop track, the vocal track, bassline track, piano/guitar chord track? Thanks.
@@PETSWORLD_ Generally I think the percussion loop makes the most sense to use as the Groove track, simply because it usually has the most subdivisions that all the other instruments can "latch" onto. You really have to use your discretion though, most importantly you have to choose drum loops that would best serve a role as the "Master" Groove track. A lot of what Big Z mentioned applies here, choose the percussion loop that sounds the cleanest and provides the strongest foundation of your song's overall groove.
One of the best production educational channels out there!
Huge appreciation from Australia brother!
To use a Groove track in Logic also helps to get drums and percs on the same rythm feel, but you're right Swing quantize is awesome and great use !
this is goldddd
love the explanation! i will admit, that '1up' sample is what took it to the next level lmao
This will hugely improve my compositions!! Such a eye opener ❤
great sounds, totally worths it ! and nice Serum sounds pack for free, you made my day !
Drum loops don’t make your track worse. Title should warn people to be careful what loops they choose. You have to tastefully select loops that work with your track when you use them, not just random ones. Title just makes it sound like they shouldn’t be used but great point and good technique
Honestly it should be less about just selecting loops and more about making sure your loops match the groove, and this could be achieved with ANY loop if you simply chop it up and clean it up. Remove whatever competes with the groove so you're creating the space in between
EXACTLY
You videos are really insightful!!! Unlike the majority who upload daily and keep circulating the same duplicate content
Great video! The part about simplifying each element into a simple hit in a separate pattern, so you can hear how it sounds with no frills and just get a handle on if the rhythmic health is brilliant!
Great insights Big Z, thanks. Track sounds awesome !
Great content bro this is exactly what I was trying to explain earlier today session, I'm going to play this for the guys good stuff man
Always excellent teaching. Thanks!
extract the groove of your main loop and apply it to the accessory loops
Wouldn’t want to confuse our listeners with any sort of syncopation or god forbid, polyrhythms, right?
you can do that. But if you want to add those, you need to create space for them. He's oversimplifying for sure, but you can literally hear him using syncopation in the example he provides at the end. Stay smart, homie
never thought about this, damn
In ableton you can "extract groove" from one element and apply that quantization to other tracks. Great way to align the rhythm of a loop that you like the texture of with the groove of the track
Thanks so much for this video. Knew there had to be some level of logic at work in even the most complex of rhythms but hadn’t been able to find any info/tutorials on the subject. Will be cracking open the DAW later to experiment.
очень рад что нашёл это видео, спасибо огромное за понятное объяснение !! ты вселил в меня новый запал))!!
Nothing left to take out > nothing left to add!
nothing left to add? -- start dividing into smaller subdivisions!!
Down until infinity?
Love Big Zee's channel 👍
I paid alot more attention to this after a friend of mine said that one of my tracks sounded like two songs playing together. Was easy to fix when someone just pointed it out like that.
very tasteful and soulful
solid video, good advice, thanks for making it.
Actually if you're on Logic simply enable time flex on the loops, quantize them to whatever quantization you'd like or you can even use a loop as master quantize and have the other loops follow that quantization .
great tutorial bro!
Or just gate the loops to only play when bass is playing.
Sometimes you have to get surgical with your loops to match the level of swing.
My 11month old son loves this song 😂 great seminar man, I rarely make house music but this gave me a good foundation
I dig it, thank you.
2:20 😂😂 o wow, that's impressive, thx for showing us this, you are the best man!
good for certain genres but i find beauty where art clashes.
That swing makes me feel 100 years ago! 💃🕺
Man thx 🙏 love it!!!!
excellent😁
At first I was thinking, “Hey, ableton’s groove feature kinda fixes these problems.” But nah, the whole point is about breaking down your overall rhythm to its key elements and not overcrowding them. Great process, gonna help me a lot.
I agree with the general idea of this video but I also having a whole bunch of different loops can add some interesting things.
I do think that there is a best of both worlds solution for this:
Start with layering all the loops you think sound cool. Then listen through it carefully and try to pick up on which loop is adding the most at every moment. Then it's just a matter of muting the other loops at that moment.
You'll just get the bits of each loop whenever they add to the groove and get rid of the clutter too. It also manages to somehow sound more varied as each loop gets the time to shine.
Thank you Big Z , you're the King 🙌
Cymatics sweating nervously...
I feel personally attacked 😆
Clean track.. sounds awesome! Excellent tut as well. Quality channel. : )
I've listened to a lot of tracks where people use loops and ethnic instruments and I don't think that you need to "humanize" absolutely everything. There is just no difference between sloppy drums and quantized drums (actually, people learn all their life to play good, not sloppy). So, when everything is electronic - yes, it definitely makes sense. But when listeners know that you are playing instrument that you will add to a looped track - I don't think that adding irregularities will improve the track. This is just my opinion, but thank you so much for the video, very informative as always!!!!
Heard of j dilla?
in the end of they day we still do electronic music, produced on and with a computer. I join your opinion.
@@DeadpoolPlayz No, I will listen! I was talking about Garmarna and Danheim.
@@Gedagnors his whole thing is that he made beats that were off the beat and not perfect
Great advice man! Thanks!
It's a fun idea, but using the same sound for all of the beats is 100% going to make it sound messy. The first 3 minutes of this video is a service announcement for SideChain. Also depending on the genre, using loops is fine, if you process them correctly
Big Z you're killing it!
very informative. kudos
explains why adding sample loop after sample loop to a project is bad practice (great job on that!) - proceeds with pitching a sale for a sample loop collection 🤦♀
RIGHT?! How did nobody else notice how it sounds at least funny xd
so.. using other loops = an unlistenable mess.
but programming drums + using YOUR loops = perfectly executed rhythm?? 🤣🤣🤣
Exactly. My guy is talking about "Drum Loops Make Your Track Worse" and then he's selling you loops. :))
what he meant was stacking different types of loops that have different groove
@@anndrew_gi Nowhere in the video does he say "all drum loops make your track worse" nor "programming drums automatically makes your track's rhythm better" nor "only my loops will give your track perfect rhythm". If anything he gives a few tips encouraging critical thought about a concept that can be applied broadly to all music production, as well as a technique for analyzing it. You can still screw up on giving your track a cohesive groove if you program the parts yourself, it's just this tends to be more of an issue with loops because inexperienced or lazy producers may throw a bunch of loops together without considering cohesion.
With that said, I think a lot of complaints about the title could be solved if it was instead called something like "Drum Loops (Can) Make Your Track Worse". Titles in media are supposed to grab attention and give an idea of the subject matter. The current title is relevant but a bit too misleading.
He's more saying that you need to clean things up in order to achieve an effective groove. If you stack up *his* loops but don't pay attention to the sonic space you're creating, it'll still sound messy. @@anndrew_gi
I typically accomplish a simple arrangement by starting from lots of overlapping grooves and then slowly taking out some slices of it until it is reduced enough. that way the groove doesn't form in the most obvious way but insteads finds a new path that I also haven't heard before sometimes. slightly different swings can be a good thing if 2 sounds are overlapping, but maybe not so much in tight genres like yours
This is super informative. Totally makes sense! Thank you.
great vid, very insightful, thanks !
as always simplicity is key.
Banger
Wow… this was an incredible video. Feel like this advice changed the way I write drums
amazing! great one as always!
Great vid! Simple and I’m sure very effective. I recognise these problems in my own tracks..
Thanks! Subbed..
I fucking love you, EXCELLENT VIDEO!
Inspiring brother
Great advice! Honestly so true and not something I see people discussing much on RUclips. Thank you for this video.
Most of the time I feel simple is better. When it comes to layering, we must ask ourselves with each layer we add, is this supposed to blend with other layers, or contrast?
Two issues with loops also - if you want to switch it up a bit, like remove the claps, remove the hi hat etc, you can't, unless you try chopping it up and it being awkward. Then you've got the levels - you can't control each bit, it's either all louder, or all quieter
Very good video once again. I have made tracks and taken the loops out for this reason. Cheers Z 🍻
Quantize to groove :D
Big Z!
Hi,
I forgot to add the free sample pack before purchasing this new drum pack. Is there anyway to get a free pack now! 😢
I inadvertently put 2 different grooves into my track, but I was able to switch the hit hats up a tad and get something cohesive using the 2 grooves
Great advice
Love this, great stuf!
good points, but (unnecessarily so) slightly manipulative to only "unleash" bass drum and main backbeat in the positive examples and keeping them turned off in the negative ones :-D
Hi Big Z - I bought the serum presets pack modern synths 2 from your online shop and it only allowed 2x download attempts. Both failed me and stopped downloading and now I can't finish downloading. How can I get the product now?
So informative!❤
This video was deliciously informative! Thank you!
Also, I noticed how cool your logo is. Who did your logo?
Thats epic advice and a great tutorial. Really struggled with this concept for years but i love how you mentronomed the rhythm very easy to then keep it all in tune. What about things likes stabs and chord would you also add the same swing?
THIS IS AWESOME! THANX!
Tight info thanks man. S’kudah wuz here
Sauce on sauce on sauce
Really helpful, subscribed
I'm a MASTER of mess making!
Is there a way to add swing to a percussion loop?
This is the biggest thing I learned this month 👌