Unequal Length Headers - Will This Work?
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2023
- Today we build some Non Equal Length Headers to try to get the performance benefits of a 180° Header without all the packaging and fabricating challenges.
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Can’t wait for the video with these 180° headers on the Dyno then with more traditional headers and see what the horsepower difference is
Right. I’m very interested.
Im interested to know if the 180° headers, Allow you to use a smaller exhaust after the collector as its not being bottle necked as much because of the "perfect pulse"
Your Dad is a national treasure. We must protect him at all costs
This channel is amazing! The amount of knowledge and information packed into a 13min video is incredible.
Thank you so much for the content, Calvin (and your pop)!!!
Our pleasure!
David Vizard talked about this in a recent video, and it piqued my interest. Looking forward to the dyno test!
Yeah, he said "if you have 8 equal length tubes, only one is correct". I want to see back to back, equal length headers, to non equal length headers.
Thank you for sharing your ideas and hard work to support the thinking. I'll be very interested to see what the results are. I believe your dad's thinking is sound, and he certainly has the experience to back it up. So glad his recovery is moving forward.
Thanks for taking the time to explain this stuff. Cant wait for the testing
i watched this video 2x.. its great.. can you share the spreadsheet, please! also, would love a deep dive into the math behind the spread sheet
David Vizard did a video explaining why equal length is not ideal.
As always a great tech video, you guys put a lot of thought into whatever your trying to achieve with your builds. Not just a bunch of off the shelf parts thrown at a new build, always a pleasure seeing some of the process that you go through.
Great video from both of you gentlemen. Hopefully when you dyno test and compare, the number of comments on primary length and secondary length will be laid to rest. Glad to see that Mr. Nelson is coming along from his injuries and pray that he continues to get better. Thanks for everything, John
This is going to be exciting to see how these turn out on the dyno
The stooges clip is a great visual for explaining cylinder pulses hitting the collector at the same time!
Beautiful work. l love how your father's mind works.
The more that I watch, the more that this becomes one of my favorite channels. Keep it coming!
I sometimes wish I was smarter than I am so I could build this type of amazing stuff! But then again my head is constantly spinning just with the remedial approach that I have now! I would NEVER sleep! Great stuff guys!
I love the thought process you guys have you are always willing to try new things.
Keep up the good work !
I remember a really similar methodology that was presented in a Ford promo video in 2011 on the development of the Coyote. Cool stuff!
Absolute mind blowing! Great tech description. Insane fab work !!!🤘
Thanks!
Another thing you can do if you've heard of David Vizard is you can build a purposefully UN-equal length header so that it delays the pulses in each bank that try to interfere with each other in order to even them out and make it scavenge more like a flat plane, but without the crazy crossover of the 180-design. Aside from that, what you're doing with the radial-sequential fire pattern is perfect, and if you ever go back to making 8-into-1 headers again, it's even more important to do the radial fire thing on THOSE.
The headers we built in this video were intentionally unequal length, just so you know. Thanks for watching.
Awesome you are doing this. I thought about this concept and tested it in EngMod4T in an attempt to get better sound. My name for this was Equidistant pulse timing. If this works out well I will certainly have to revisit this. Great work!
Can’t wait to see how it goes! Great work
Chock ful o technical goodness 😊
Finally a useable video on you tube that has actual real knowledge to share. Thank you for the education on headers. I need to build a set for my s-10 that has a N/A HP level of around 550hp. I chose 1-7/8”s for ease of fitment. Really wanted 2” but it’s just not feasible and it’s getting a lot of spray so I can pick up the extra HP there at the track. But I would like it to be healthy N/A. Every little bit helps.
excellent take on a old set of rules. Gonna bookmark this for future reference!
The orchestral tracks chosen are exceptional
A 180-degree header has the potential to be a true equal length tuned header ,where the reflective wave works in a similar manner to an inline engine. Thus, it can be tuned to a more spastic RPM range. This should give you higher torque numbers at that particular RPM for which it's tuned for.
A traditional 4 into 1 header may seam to have equal length tubes however that's not how the engine would see it , there is 270 deg and 180deg and 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation between cylinder firing on 0ne bank so the pressure wave comes back to the engine from the collector in an uneven fashion.
The reflective wave from the collector is all over the place in a V8 engine, so it can't be tuned as precisely as a 180-degree header. Thus, it'll likely give a wider turning range, so it's then likely to give a flater torque curve with slight lower peak numbers.
You could be right. The unequal length may reducing pumping losses by freeing up the collector for the two cylinders that are 90 degrees apart. Question is which will be the larger factor.
It seems when you get the scavenging of the headers spaced properly the camshaft would not need as much overlap leading to more power.
Entirely possible.
Y’all are easily one of my favorite channels on RUclips! This stuff has been so interesting to me for years and years, and here you are explaining it all in great detail! I’ve got an RSX type s as my second car, and I always wondered if a custom header could be built with different length primaries to simulate a cross plane 4 cylinder sound (like a Yamaha r1). I bet your dad would actually know the answer.
Yessir! Thanks for watching.
Calvin, have you got an Instagram or something similar where you’d maybe care to chat about this? I think your idea and my idea are the same, same concept anyway. I’d like to bounce some ideas off you.
@@Superb_Owl80 I do. It's Nivlac57
This is unusual, but there's a lot of logic involved. Looking forward to hearing it!
I like the idea of unequal length in relation to a pattern. I bet this is a good way to get some simple lightweight headers too.
-- The headers on my truck have the short tubes as the ones that you'd use to build Tri-Y headers.
-- I want to build my own headers for a harmonious tone the way the Garage 56 Nascar sounds.
Absolutely LOVE this!!! If there's a frustration I've always had, it's how a lot of guys will talk theory on forums and such but rarely ever does anyone actually BUILD & TEST. I can't wait to see this tested; I'm almost as interested in the sound as the numbers. I can't argue with the theory, so I believe it should offer some numbers. In fact, logically thinking, it's a flat plane crank V8 that would benefit from equal length headers rather than a cross plane, no?
BTW, one more idea to check out - Hoonigan uploaded it on the 'Hoonigan Project Garage' channel a few days ago, video title...
"Exhaust to Make an LS3 Sound Like a Supercar!", Zac's C6Z
...it's a unique header concept by Celeritec Headers for C6 Corvettes with an 8-4-1 header arrangement; so each bank is a 4-2, with each pair from each bank going back to a single 4-1 collector. I'm not quite sure how to apply this primary length variation strategy to a tri-Y-esque design, seems to inherently limit the hell out of how much variance you can have, but this is certainly an interesting "next level Tri-Y" kind of design worth playing around with I think. I definitely want to experiment with it.
But the 8-4-1 is a pretty interesting idea; one of those "WhyTF didn't I ever think of that?!" ideas. And it sounds absolutely WILD too, unlike anything else I've heard on a crossplane V8. It's 180°-ish sound, but definitely identifiably different than a 180.
...I kinda want to build one of these 8-4-1s for a turbo setup. Might be basically impossible under a hood(makes for a pretty long, awkward header-thing), but could be perfect for something like a compact pickup with a bed mounted turbo(this setup has proven pretty successful in the no-prep world; notably Mid America Kustoms & Jason Cantou). I've never bought into the "it doesn't matter" philosophy of turbo header design, no doubt log manifolds and such can and do work, but, just like they "can and do work" on an NA engine, they aren't exactly ideal(I mean, usem' if they work for the app, they have their own advantages of course). Even if you can 'cover up' their limitations with boost. The more efficient a header is for an NA engine, the more effective it should be as a turbo header, with sizing adjusted as appropriate of course. The greater the energy you can maintain in the exhaust, the better to spool your Wuhan Whistler. How much better; how much lower of an RPM can we spool up at? How much time is saved in spool up? What about pedaling mid-track, can we get quicker boost recovery? All questions worth exploring with turbo header design, that few seem interested in testing & answering.
Yep. I watched the Hoonigan video when it released. I found it interesting how much power they picked up. They do it in NASCAR, so obviously it has merit.
I remember reading the results from a header test years ago, that compared which parameters of header design made more power. Out of everything (primary size/length, merg type, collector volume/length, etc.) they found NOTHING provided more horsepower than a well-designed merger spike and a longer collector merge volume. Screw all the complexity. Use whatever primary diameter you need, but use the longest/smoothest merge collector you can build to fit whatever space you can find.
Calvin, I got a bit scared when I saw Math... Your Dad relieved the fear. I look forward to dyno and sound. Are the headers 304 SS?
Thanks. Yes 304
I can't wait to see the outcome on this. I'm in an ls build currently that i want to do a non-conventional header build for. You're channel is one of my primary sources of research.
Hopefully later this year, we will have results
@Calvin-Nelson either way, I still love what you and dad are doing. I grew up around "old school" hot rodders with a farming problem so it's really cool seeing someone apply that mindset to the modern equipment in a way that the public can consume. You are making it very accessible to the people who cant make it to races to see that it is very much still alive you just don't get to see that on a network show.
Love the Three Stooges! Great job Sweeties!
Meow
I think it'll work, it'll probably have kind of a NASCAR sonorous tone when it gets up on the pipe because the pulses will line up. I believe David Vizard did a video about this where he proposed a similar design and suggested the NASCAR engineers do a similar thing.
I wonder if anybody ever tried putting the different lengths inside the collector. For either fittment reasons or to hide it from the competition .
I what ever you guys do a think it will be awesome 👏
Rhis is exactly what I have thought for my entire life. I never understood equal length headders!!
Glad dad is doing better.
David Vizard was describing this exact thing in a video a while ago. Pretty cool to see the math and such to even out the pulses.
It would be interesting to see a comparison with these headers vs. a traditional off-the-shelf set.
As soon as we find a set that fit the engine and the chassis I plan to buy. Then we can do a direct A-B-A comparison.
Lots of definitive useful information. Great work. I think you will make the power you plan for!
Does the primary size stuff apply with turbo headers? I mean if you have no back pressure it would?
Right. If you had no back pressure it would apply, but that's not really possible if you're driving a turbo. I feel like the same principals would apply, but you would have a different speed of sound and maybe some other factors would play into it.
I think that’s a ton of work. Super cool though. Love the content, keep it coming.
Doesn't feel like work when it's what you enjoy.
Your dad made it so it's gonna make more power! I think your headers will sound better tho!!!!
Flow equals horsepower and the more efficient it is, the more power you get.
I can't remember when I subbed to this channel but I'm sure glad I did!
These guys are the real deal
I’m curious to see both how it sounds and how much power it’ll make. The SCR of the engine will be a limiting factor to Max HP/TQ.
David Vizard has a youtube vid about this too. Iirc they used pressure sensors to figure out optimal primary tube lengths.
The idea has been batted around for over 3 decades. Everyone has their own take on how to skin the cat.
I'm interested in the results! after watching Vizard's video on this, I thought two primary tube lengths would be sufficient because you're trying to push the pulses together and pull them apart, so to speak, on each side.
on the right bank I came up with 26" for #2 & #8 and 30" for #4 & #6. on the left bank 26" on #3 & #5, 30" on #1 & #7. maybe 4" isn't the optimal difference, but that was what I thought was a good start point.
i've also thought that getting a vortex going inside the collector may help too, so instead of a divider in the collector, you have a sort of flow director at the end of each primary that imparts a directional spin on the gasses going into the collector. so that divider is now 4- way and slightly spiraled. (i hope that's understandable.) if it's even possible. just pick a direction and do the same on both sides.
I've probably put less thought into building an entire car. Please don't take that as any type of insult. It's in fact, the exact opposite. It's guys like you that make for huge improvements and advancement in motorsports. Just please keep doing what you are doing. Your knowledge and commitment is very impressive.
This is some great technical data. I wonder with so much thought and effort on the exhaust side why it isnt worth it to tune the intake side as meticulously. It is an airpump and can only flow out as much as you are flowing in too. Will be interesting to hear the difference at full 7000+ rpm song and see the powerband changes. Planning on using same cams and intakes?
We'll probably run the BTR 230 cam,band the Hiram is pretty much the best of the best for power. Lots of testing out there for that.
I've seen a few 180deg setups that got messy and didn't really sound so good, so much that it put me off the idea. Yours on the other hand look really neat and sound absolutely awesome !
Thanks. I'm very happy with it. It's all about the secondary piping in my opinion.
@@Calvin-Nelson Do you mind explaining the secondary piping and what you think is important that maybe others have not done right ?
As far as sound goes, 180 headers do a lot, but getting the tubes after the collectors to be the same length and merging them together really gets the sound to be more like a 8 cylinder rather than two 4 cylinders.
What intake manifold is that? Holley HiRam or something different? Great video!
Amazing gearhead content! Have you considered anything tr-Y related like the Celeritech headers in the recent Hoonigan video to manage the timing problems, or does that kind of get you to the same place but by a different path? Lol
We have. After hearing the Hoonigan C6 I would consider it.
Sweet tuned length unequal length headers
Did these headers ever make it to the dyno or fire up? I’d love know hear and see the results
I don't know what it is, but all of your background music is oddly nostalgic sounding to me. Is it just stock music or is it from something? As always, thanks for a great video, glad pops is doing alright!
Yeah. It's mostly just drew music from the RUclips music repository. Thanks!
Just use equal length header short or long. Put on your exhaust and use a heat crayon to find out the 2 hottest spots and do either an X. Pipe orange pipe back in the day. All we did was do a cross over Pipe old school.
All tube are created equal and exhaust flow must exit as one....on left and right banks..... hope i got that right....LOL ..🙂👍🙏
Where can I get that excel spreadsheet that your dad was using?
I am watching
Would a Tri Y header arrangement help if you link 3 and 5 and 1 and 7
They use that in NASCAR, so there is definitely something magic there.
Any update on the sound of these headers? Who do I contact to get something put together?
We haven't gotten there yet. Holley keeps delaying our order on the ECU. Hard to run the car without that. Lol
Resonanance can be tuned for a purpose, but the internet professors know all the dogma.
How many hours do you have in those headers? I put 7 hours just into a simple 4' long 3" axle back exhaust section this week 😅
Eh. Probably 40 hours between my Dad and me
@Calvin-Nelson that's pretty good I'd say! I guess if he's been building them for decades he probably knows all the tricks.
Did you ever run these? Really curious about the performance.
Interesting thought experiment about the sound aspect - sound waves are traveling at 1700 ft/sec and the exhaust gas is more like 350 ft/sec. At 6000 rpm 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation takes .0025 seconds which equates to ~10.5 inches of linear exhaust tubing length traveled by an exhaust pulse. For a sound wave at the speed of sound it is 51 inches! I don't think there's a chance to fix the uneven firing sound like you can with a set of 180* headers, but you should be able to smooth out the exhaust pulses entering the collector and make more power.
Haven't gotten to the point of running them yet. Ran into parts availability issues, but we'll get back to it later this year hopefully
I'm in the process of building a '2000 Sanoma Stepside P/U and the steering shaft is my biggest issue in fitting headers. I've eliminated the rag joint w/ a collapsible Jeep steering shaft, so fitment should be a bit easier. Next step is springing for a tube bender - a piece of equipment I've always wanted for building roll cages, now I have two reasons for getting one. hehe
Header tubing is thin wall and can't by bent in a roll cage tubing bender. Sorry.
@@andrewnelson3733 Well, that sucks! Thanks for the heads-up.
what universal kit did you source for the piping and joints?
We just bought a whole bunch of J-bends from Summit racing. The kits from StainlessHeaders.com look really attractive
@@Calvin-Nelson excellent!
Thats interestingly what David Vizard says also, ie that unequal headers are better for power.
Im qurious to know if your dad have read or heard Calvin Elstons view on headers?
I found his writing on the speed talk forums very interesting. He goes by the nickname ”exhausted” there.
I have not heard of Elstons. I am on speed talk occasionally and will look for him.
@@andrewnelson3733 as i understand it hes retired now. Hes been involved in nascar and other racing. I guess its only once he retired he started talking about how he design and make headers.
Hes a proponent of stepped headers and focus on speed of the exhaust rather than tuned length. His own words posted in the forum explains it better than I ever could.
One interesting quote from him is that hes ”never seen an exhaust port(on a head) that was too small”.
Anyways I find all opinions and views interesting and as always there seem to be more than one way to ”skin the cat”.
What is your opinion on 8 into 1 headers? Some people use them but I think on a V8 the tubes will be way too long so the scavenging effect happens at too low rpm. Maybe they work on inline 8 engines tho.
I don't like the merge volume. You end up losing a ton of velocity in the collector, which is not great for scavenging.
Going to be very interesting to see the outcome. Sound is definitely going to change, but probably only slightly…
I’m thinking of changing the exhaust on my blown bbc, 565 with an 8-71.
Thinking of doing dual 3.5” off the collectors, into a Y-pipe, that is 5” oval outlet and have a single 5” oval pipe out into one muffler… Wondering with it would sound like… if it would have a 180* kind of sound…
I’ve never heard a big cubic inch or high Hp engine with a Y-pipe lol. Thats stock factory stuff… which always sounds like junk…
I ran Y-pipes and big singles on BBCs in the late 80s and early 90s. It drew a lot of attention. Everything was home.built.
Surly GMs engineering department has thrown bucks into researching this type of setup ..emissions at very least ..what say you ..!??
They have other concerns that would probably prevent it, like Cat light off, emissions, and NVH.
Do you base pipe length on port flow?
No. Engine speed you want to tune for.
Going to sound like zoomies coming through duals, or bears fighting! Some people would just buy a spinning minig*n exhaust tip and call it a day. :p Makes me think of perfectly timed b*llets coming from different g*ns though. Trying not to mess up your algorithm(hi algorithm!) with the g word, lol.
Only at certain rpm these headers can do what the 180° headers do.
Because 1 pulse always takes the same amount of time to run through the primary tube. but the amount of degrees, the crankshaft spins during this time, varies with rpm. One is time based and one is angle based. So the angle between the pulses of the 4 cylinders that go into 1 collector always varies with rpm, except its equal length headers. I think the benefit of equal length headers is exactly that, even if certain pulses are just 90° apart. 180° headers are the best, because they have always 180 between pulses, no matter what.
I imagine it will have a bell curve type effect.
@@Calvin-Nelson how do you measure primary tube length? just use a welding rod and estimate where the center of the tube will go?
@@patriotdiz4846 you measure the tubes as you make them. Straight tubes are easy for obvious reasons, but for bends you just measure along the centerline of the bend.
@@Calvin-Nelson Thank you calvin!
I just realized Nivlac is Calvin backward. Big "ah-ha" moment for me, lol.
Lol. I get this comment all the time. I don't make it obvious.
Never seen anyone RUN THE EXHAUST UP OUT OF THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT, ALONG THE WINDSHIELD PILLARS !?
I don't know what you are talking about
My unfounded opinion: This setup will make more power and less torque than a similar but less anal-retentive regular old 4-into-1 setup.
Further free advice that's not worth half what you paid for it: Equal-length 4-into-1's (or tri-Y's) into a shared pressure wave termination box followed by an X-pipe would sound pretty similar to your 180-degree header setup--maybe even smoother, especially at the higher end of the RPM range.
I'll be interested to see how this all works out.
what happened with these headers I don't see a test video
Couldn't get parts to finish the build. We will handle it another way soon
I’m much smarter after watching this
**SCIENCE**
Very informative. But i have to say, how much are you actually gaining for your efforts?
Without an engine dyno you have no way to accurately quantify your results, there's too many variables on a chassis dyno. Let's say you gain 8,12, or 23 HP for the tremendous amount of time you have in them, besides the fun of playing with F1 theories, is the return worth it ??? VS some good off the shelf headers and spend your time and efforts on the rest of the build....
The 180° project i get because you were trying to achieve a certain sound.
@@BEANS-O-MATICtransmissions If you are racing in a cubic inch limited class, gaining 10hp can be the difference between winning an losing
@Calvin-Nelson yes, but you're not, you're just exercising your engineer brain. Thats all fun on paper and makes content but, you've got other stuff to do ! Lol
@@BEANS-O-MATICtransmissions what other stuff do I have to do?
Supposed to say or h. Pipe
0:20
Short answer.... no
Maybe some performance but 100% sure the sound will not be like a 180° header, because subaru uel headers in teory should sound like a crossplane inline 4, but it doesn't.....
I´d say you are forgetting first primary rule of why you are using headers.
The primary tubes are tuned in length to a certain rpm range.
Starting to alter that because you want even time between pulses hitting the collectors you are going away from what headers are supposed to do.
David Vizard also arguing the same way as you, but i still need to be hit with real A-B-A testing before i belive it.
Yeah. That's why we chose lengths that should hit their peaks throughout the operating range. We'll see how it does on the dyno.
All the lengths are in a desired operating range. It is not set up to have all 8 set for one rpm.
@@Calvin-Nelson It has been done before, usually results in a header that won´t shine anywhere :(
@@Patricks_Projects on a flat plane crank I would agree with you. We'll see what the dyno has to say.
_"One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."_
--Grace Hopper