POP vs POWER...there's a difference?
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Explaining the difference between POP and POWER when it comes to pickleball paddles and how I use the terms to try and distinguish paddles from one another.
#pickleball #paddle
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This was the video I needed to watch to help me "blind buy" a paddle online. Thank you! Fwiw, I'm a 4.5 tennis player new to pickleball. I like to hit hard. Use a tightly strung racket for needed control since I hit hard, so I'm used to a "board", less trampoline effect. On a recommendation, I got the Joola Perseus 16mm. I love the spin and power for serves and returns but I hate the "feel" of the paddle--too soft and mushy for my taste (yes, I know that helps with control, especially for dinks, but I already have technique from tennis on handling volleys with touch and control). So your graph is just what I was looking for to help me find a paddle with more poppy feel. Thanks again!
Great explainer for some widely used terms! Appreciate it!
Except Will's definition: "power refers to velocity the ball stays at while traveling through the air for an extended period of time" is nonsensical, because:
-The ball does not "stay" at any velocity while traveling through the air. It will always slows down at the exact same rate due to air resistance (*technically spin also has a small effect on deceleration, but that is fairly insignificant and irrelevant to power/pop). So,
-It is irrelevant how fast it is moving after some "extended period of time", because that is solely a function of the initial velocity when it left the paddle. So,
-The only thing that we care about for power vs pop is the initial velocity of the ball when it leaves the paddle face.
Would love to the see the Scatter Plot. I have both the Vatic Pro Flash 14 as well as the DBD 14 and would agree on the higher pop less power (thought Vatic has a bit more power than DBD). I also have the original run of the Legacy that feels VERY high on the pop and the power category.
Came here thinking the same thing. The original run of the Legacy Pros are very poppy with a ton of power.
what's the difference between like and love.....as a little kid once said, "I like vanilla ice cream but I LOVE strawberry"....pop and power...hmmm, if you are a driver, then power is important and if you are a net person and want quick hands battles and returns, then pop is important...i have found the thinner 14 mm paddles have more "pop" at the net but I also like the solid feel of the thinner paddles and that feeling gives me a better sense of the power when hitting my drives
I agree completely with you on those that I have used. CRBN 1x is my go-to paddle.
The 002 is a great option. I tried the gearbox pro power and the pop on that thing is incredible but no more power than my 1x in my opinion.
You are spot on with adding weight. You can add power at the 12 o’clock. Pop is a different thing altogether. That’s not an option to be able to change.
I am now considering the gearbox again and adding weight to the head to get the singles paddle that I want.
Great review!
Just ordered your recommended overgrip - been looking for something better. Thanks!
Definitely would like to see the chart! I really like the visuals on this one.
So to preface - let me say I actually agree with the pop vs power distinction, and for the most part I think the description of how they differ is fine. But Will tends to offer additional conjecture about the nature of powerfully hit balls that is misleading. He makes it seem like powerful paddles have an ability to make balls move fast AND MAINTAIN that high velocity for longer than usual, as opposed to less powerful paddles which might get a ball moving fast but then the ball runs out of juice and slows down quick. This is just not how bodies in motion behave.
A ball traveling at a certain velocity will decelerate at the same pace due to air resistance, regardless of whether or not it was hit with some kind of "powerful" stroke. The only thing that matters is the velocity of the ball at the instant that it leaves the paddle face (as well as spin to some degree but that's besides the point).
The difference between power and pop is simply: a powerful paddle more efficiently harnesses a fully developed stroke to achieve the highest overall velocities (~ 57 mph) right after the ball is struck, whereas a poppy paddle more efficiently takes advantage of a small stroke to achieve moderately high velocities (~35 mph) right after the ball is struck.
But a ball moving at 57 mph will slow down just as quickly regardless of how powerful the paddle was that struck it.
Okay I could see where a paddle would take a different effect at say an impact at 57 mph than at say 30 mph as other forces could come into play like a trampoline (more speed ramp up say deeper into the trampoline) but if both paddles are hitting at a consistent 30 mph then it's always going to be the same power or pop or whatever you want to call it...
@@clintroberts1 I don't really know what you're trying to clarify about my statement.
Will's definition: "power refers to velocity the ball stays at while traveling through the air for an extended period of time" is nonsensical, because:
-The ball does not "stay" at any velocity while traveling through the air. It will always slows down at the exact same rate due to air resistance (*technically spin also has a small effect on deceleration, but that is fairly insignificant and irrelevant to power/pop). So,
-It is irrelevant how fast it is moving after some "extended period of time", because that is solely a function of the initial velocity when it left the paddle. So,
-The only thing that we care about for power vs pop is the initial velocity of the ball when it leaves the paddle face. .
However, I do agree with Will that power and pop are actually different, and certain paddles can be more powerful or more poppy, because a small swing or a larger swing might better take advantage of different qualities of a paddle such as stiffness/ deflection (trampoline effect), swing weight, etc.
Yeah I think it really comes down to paddle speed during impact. Most of these power vs pop situations are dealing with slow balls though, so I'd be interested in seeing if blocking a fast ball has the same mechanics as driving a slow ball. Suspect it's pretty similar as long as the inertia of the paddle doesn't come into play much.
@@WhatTheFPS My only point is that the initial velocity of the ball after contact tells you everything you need to know about it's future trajectory. You can't store extra energy in the ball to help it retain it's velocity later in it's trajectory by hitting it with a poppier or more powerful paddle. The ball only has 1 possible trajectory given a certain exit velocity from the paddle. Whatever happened beforehand to give the ball that initial exit velocity is literally irrelevant.
Appreciate all you guys discussing this. It was very difficult for me to try and put these thoughts into words but def helps when guys like you discuss it who have better definitions of the terms
Definitely do the scatter plot that would be very useful for me.
Agree The outlawed foam paddles have no pop, but power. Seems like stiffer the paddle have more pop.
I would love to see that graph for the current paddles
informative. I liked the graphic for the categories with the dotted line box and all the paddles you mentioned, seem like some of the most common ones but also some outliers which is cool. I wonder where the Willinator will fall under 🧐
Yeah Will, do the paddle data point chart ... the more precise info the better
I WANT THE FULL VIDEO OF ALL THE PADDLES!!!! XD
1. Currently using the SixZero Black Diamond with an oz. Of lead tape added strategically to keep a similar swing weight, but improve the sweet spot. Feels much better than standard and rips. To the point people have asked if I’m using a spin serve. Definitely not.
2. Definitely do the scatter chart. Engage already does it. Which may help.
3. When is custom fitting going to be a thing? We have adopted almost everything from golf. C.O.R, Higher MOI, Variable Face Technology, Custom adjustable weighting, Carbon this and that.
(Great Vid)
I have 3grams at 8 and 4, works well. Where are yours?
@@jburton1419 it sounds strange. But that’s so long ago. Even now I’m doing with my paddle is evolving. I hit really high on the end of the paddle with serves and drives. Fairly strong wrist. Sparky by trade. So I try and move the sweetspot more to the end of the paddle. So mostly back then I put a strip from a roll of tape from corner to top corner. I want to hit as much top as I can. My thoughts are you don’t use the extra power for power. Only. You use the extra power to get your drives / serves deeper but use as much shape as you can. That’s what extra power gives you
Is there any legal way to increase the “pop” of your paddle?
Yes please, scatter plot graph!
Hey Will, Would you agree that "Pop" and "Control" are inversely related? Meaning, paddles with lots of pop tend to have low control and vice versa? Or not?
For the most part yes. However, it’s a bit more nuanced because twist weight and stability are also a factor when it comes to control. And the way a paddle feels can also be subjective from player to player and that can also affect perceived control
Yo, Will. When are you going to do a review on the new Hyperion C2 ? I'm waiting for that review buddy.
The voice cracks man!! 🤣
It's grating to listen to
Did you find the GB Power Fusion was less power than the Power elongated?
I have a GB Power Fusion that I added 0.1 oz on the 4 and 8 clock position. You recommend adding weight to the head as well?
Unless you need more power I typically avoid adding weight to the head
@@PickleballWill I tried today morning with 0.1 oz in both 4 and 8 clock position and felt amazing!!!
I would love to see a scatter graph.
I want to see the definative pickleball paddle reviewer match! Braydon Unsicker and John Kew vs Chris Olsen and Will Chaing. What paddle will they use? Will they take a time out to open up their bags with a quiver of paddles for more power, spin, pop or control?
Tests have shown that a player's subjective estimation of pop is very biased and skewed by sound and vibration. John Kew has done objective speed tests of many of the paddles you list, that are contrary to your opinion. How would you explain that?
Because they are making everything up to sell paddles
Because he said it's his opinion. It's an opinion
@@Metow677 Thank you for your insight. I'm asking Will how he thinks about the divergence between the objective tests and his opinion. e.g. if I was him, I would assume that the tests were more accurate than my own personal subjective impression. Or I would look closer at the test results and conditions and try to replicate them somehow or gather more data
@@kyebean you made the point that a player's subjective estimation is skewed by sound and vibration. Let's say that a quieter hitting paddle with less vibration is perceived to be less poppy and powerful. Good thing there is a line of paddles like this that exists: the Gearbox Pro series. This series Will lists as both poppy and powerful, despite having low volume and vibration.
Then there is the ProKennex Black Ace, which is very loud, and has minimal vibration. Will lists this paddle as poppy and not powerful, which is also accurate.
The Black Ace has more pop than Gearbox Pro series, but less power. If players thought that it really hit faster all the time because of the noise, then Will might think that this paddle has great power. However, he didn't say this. This is due to the fact that the paddle has less weight. Will also mentions this in his video. More weight means more power, but it never means more pop. Despite the Gearbox Pro series being thicker than the Black Ace, it almost has as much pop, and is a heavier paddle than the Black Ace.
Will also disclaims at the very beginning of the video, that the paddles being compared are based on models that are similar to each other, that he has also tested out. This means that these paddles are not on an all-time performance kind of list, but on a list that compares paddles to each other than have similar qualities and reviews, to help people know if they are getting more control, power, or pop. Maybe you are stuck between the Vatic V7 Pro and the Prism Flash. Same company, mostly same materials. But they are in different categories. His list goes with the data, but it puts it into context, which he clearly made known from the start
@@Metow677 Have you looked at JohnKew's data? Some of it clearly contradicts Will's opinions.
Funny you mention Gearbox, because they have done tests showing that people's strong opinions of pop and power can be very inaccurate and biased by our senses. Pointing out that SOME opinions have seemed accurate doesn't address the issue or explain anything. By the way, I'm still interested in the personal opinions of reviewers
will you make a review on the new diadem edge 18k power pro?
Neonic Force!
Where do you rank the viva gen 2 and muvn 13s just curious
Thanks!
Where does the 6.0 Ruby fall into this chart?
Less pop and less power side of the spectrum
You didn't include the New Joola C2? Any thoughts?
Apparently it’s just a Perseus in a hyperion shape I was told by Joola. But I haven’t hit it
question where would you put the legacy pro or legacy pro air
High pop high power
Please provide the scatter plot
Vauraus review 👀
Graph would be cool
Dude where you located
I’m now based out of Oklahoma
@@PickleballWill wow. Cool. I thought for sure California. I like your style. Had to ask.
@jeremysmith9694 appreciate you my guy 🙏
Definition of power doesn't make sense to me. Why would it have anything to do with the length of time the ball is in the air? In my mind the only difference between pop and power is swing speed. In fact, I think you can't truly quantify pop or power without measuring swing speed and weight and factoring those numbers into the final result
To me it helps to think like, if you hit a huge drive with the ace paddle, yes it will go fast initially but how far will it actually go?
Power is, it stay fairly consistent in speed, and travels a longer distance
If I'm not mistaken, what you're saying is basically against physics. All else being equal, what is the physical difference between a pop shot and power shot other than swing speed?
I think of "pop" as how much energy is returned from a moving ball hitting a stationary paddle. While "power" is how much energy is delivered to a stationary ball hit by a moving paddle.
@@bicyclethief right, that's basically what I'm saying. It's all about swing speed. I think it's less useful to go focus on zero swing speed or a stationary ball because those aren't very realistic
@@kyebean it's not all about swing speed. there's also the trampoline effect of the paddle. a moving ball rebounds off with more energy from a stationary thermoform paddle than a stationary gen1 paddle. ppl are calling this "pop"
Unless you're using a robot that has a consistent "swing" speed or a ball launcher with exact speed when it hits a paddle and you're measuring distance on each this is just all on feel or approximation. Both feel and approximation can provide some insight but power and pop go together. How could a paddle have high pop but lower power if it's hitting the same spot on the paddle at the same speed. Isn't Newton's law about opposing forces the main thing here. Seems like a bit of baloney aka marketing schemes. I also have issue with the power vs control as the body adjust to the forces of a particular object. Now quality to me is a main factor which can be defined as consistency and I am sure sweet spot comes into play here. But the human brain is capable of adjusting their hit to different parts of a paddle, it's just more difficult to consistently be good. Spin I think is measurable although again with robot but differing speeds could affect the spin ability. I see that within the basic laws of physics. This is all just feel in my opinion with paddles being more powerful or controllable. Having issue with power and pop though as there may be slight differences due to say trampoline effect at differing speeds but they go hand and hand.
Haha i left a comment that echoes your sentiment. Somebody doesn't understand basic mechanics lol.
I got many of these paddles Will is correct. A firefight is about pop not power.
@@gg80108 The point here is simply that Will's definition: "power refers to velocity the ball stays at while traveling through the air for an extended period of time" is nonsensical, because:
-The ball does not "stay" at any velocity while traveling through the air. It will always slows down at the exact same rate due to air resistance (*technically spin also has a small effect on deceleration, but that is fairly insignificant and irrelevant to power/pop). So,
-It is irrelevant how fast it is moving after some "extended period of time", because that is solely a function of the initial velocity when it left the paddle. So,
-The only thing that we care about for power vs pop is the initial velocity of the ball when it leaves the paddle face.
However, I do agree with Will that power and pop are actually different, and certain paddles can be more powerful or more poppy, because a small swing or a larger swing might better take advantage of different qualities of a paddle such as stiffness/ deflection (trampoline effect), swing weight, etc.
@@AllHijinksNoHighDinks I got many of these paddles, Will is right on power is different than pop.
@@gg80108 What, are you retarded or something, or just illiterate? My comment clearly states "I do agree with Will that power and pop are actually different, and certain paddles can be more powerful or more poppy".
But the way he defines those terms is not consistent with the laws of physics/ Specifically, because a ball with a certain initial speed leaving the paddle will slow down just as fast regardless of the kind of paddle that struck it to give it that initial speed. The initial speed the instant it leaves the paddle is the only thing worth mentioning, because it will always slow down at the same rate due to air resistance. So when Will says that power involves the "velocity that the ball stays at after an extended period of time", it's just a shit definition.
He should just stick to describing power vs pop by large swing vs small swing.
I love my Vatic pro 14
That is not the name of any paddle.
@@AllHijinksNoHighDinks you right . Something pro 14
@@lilremylote V7?
@@AllHijinksNoHighDinks Flash 14
Your definition for power is already called “speed” aka”velocity” which is also in your definition. 😂
Yeah he misunderstands the laws of physics. But the basic premise does hold up, if you ignore his additional musings. That is, a powerful paddle more effectively takes advantage of a full stroke to achieve higher velocities, while a poppy paddle more effectively takes advantage of a quick stroke to achieve moderately high velociites.
So nothing on the gearbox…dude. What’s up
@ 4:28
@@elvnprince thx
Lol
Lol
He added it when the eyeglasses showed up. Pop and power gearbox.