Tesla's "Octovalve" is another good example for vertical integration. They designed a completely integrated temperature management system for the whole car, where other manufacturers plug different components together - heat pumps are even optional for many cars.
@@sasastojanovic5552 first of all: here in Iceland Ioniq5 went up with price a lot (bought mine in May 2022), Tesla on other hand dropped the price 20% month ago and the same day I placed an order. I always wanted model Y but it was a little bit too expensive when I was looking for a first EV. I used the opportunity, sold the Ioniq5 for more than I payed in May 2022 (and I clocked 25.000km on it). Tesla pick up is tomorrow. Ioniq5 was cool. I will not get on to technical specs here: super fast charging car but only in a perfect setting. I had no chance to try the battery heating software upgrade when you approaching the charger. Without the upgrade I never exceed 170kWh charging speed as far as I remember. Super comfortable: both the ride and seats. Extraordinary looking car imo. Very pleasant interior: I had white leather. Suspensions on a softer side: aggressive driving and cornering unappealing. Car is to low to the ground for me. 15.5cm don't cut it. I ripped some of the soft fibreglass cloth on hard snow. We had a rough winter. Warranty not covered it. Had to pay. I was unhappy. The material is very soft... Like hard cardboard when wet. Other thing is the big deep space where the wipers arm are.. When defrosting the windscreen all this wet snow goes there and freezes. Had issues with it. The biggest problem was a rattling sound coming somewhere from the front. I could not figure out from where exactly. Service couldn't also. It appeared mainly with speeds above 50km/h and during windy days. I think it is connected with blades covering the radiator. They open and close when needed. Over engineered IMHO. When snowing, the white stuff goes to the opening and prevents the blades from closing... Then it becomes ice and it is difficult to get the ice from ther. Also I cracked a lower part of the bumper in freezing weather on a hard snow. The bumper is over engineered as well and fragile. Very delicate. Not very flexible. I have a feeling the car is not ment for a winter climate. Just my opinion. Still the coolest car I ever owned. Comfort is amazing. BOSE soundsystem is awesome! Very quiet cabin (I doubt Tesla will be as quiet). High torque. Very nippy ride. Fast acceleration. Lacks power with higher speeds (but only for people who driven Tesla's, iPace's, Polestar's etc). Very big disadvantage is the aerodynamics - with Icelandic strong winds, the high drag coefficient kills the range dramatically (Tesla Y is the most aerodynamic SUV on the market). In summer with no wind I could achieve +400km of range on a road trip (always music and auto HVAC between 18-21°C). In winter with wind it is around 270-320km on a full charge. It all depends on many factors though. I drive rather dynamically for example. Heating the battery before the journey helps a lot. Iceland is a rough and difficult environment: cold, windy, uneven and rough asphalt. Not the Ioniq's favourite surroundings.
If possible, keep us informed on how the model Y hold up in the winter you described in Iceland. I live in canada(Saskatchewan) and I own a 2022 Model Y, it's my first winter with it and it's been great so far. The coldest temp I've driven in is -37c, I lost about 35% of my range but no issues in those temp, heater worked awsome, which was what I feared the most when I ordered it.
Key to this is that Tesla, Lucid & Rivian have no legacy/ideological baggage of ICE to hold them back. A clean sheet advantage gives them the ability to focus on making better EVs rather than juggling the 2 drive trains to avoid disappearing into oblivion!
well a lot of brands have multiple ev models now and at some point after 2035 they will be making mostly or only evs ...but they can already match pretty closely the brands focused only on evs ....they weren't matching them a few years ago
But that's also their weakness, IMO. Legacy cars do better in the total car areas, suspensions, body construction, and in some ways handling and definitely braking (at least in the ICE cars) because of the auto sports traditions. I'm not blown away by the ground-up BEVs from Tesla because I don't feel they are on the same levels fundamentally as cars. That's my argument. The software part is computerizing a car but that's doesn't equal the engineering of experience of making a true car. In time, the advantages Tesla, Rivian, Lucid have won't be as pronounced and the legacy advantages won't be as pronounced. I'm still in the cars are vehicles first school but if you are in the cars are computers on wheels school, then Tesla and the others may appeal more to you.
@@pumpuppthevolume who's making EVs in any volume? Only companies other than Chinese brands are VW and Tesla. No other manufacturer makes 100,000+ per year.
@Dave Kozlowski did I say something about numbers or what's most popular at the moment ....I was talking about matching the quality .....if u want those numbers search for 100% Electric Vehicles = 13% Of New Vehicle Sales Globally!
As a Hyundai IONIQ 5 owner, got the battery preconditioning update today and didnt pay anything. Thing is it is free if you get it with the car's service, but if you want it right away then you have to pay 1500NOK.
Kia still dragging their heels on this in the US and Europe.. The preheating update is rumored to be a few weeks away for the EV6. Fortunately the '23 models and late 22's have this by default. Respect to Bjorn for being one of the only reviewers for doing proper tests and pointing out the coldgating issues.
Polestar's advantage is it is a sports- tuned Volvo, tbh. The body structure is robust and if they can fine tune the suspension a measure or two better than Volvo has done in their current cars, it's a winner. The handling is already terrific but the ride needs to be more supple IMO. As far as software goes, Polestar is working on it. May take a bit more time but I like where Volvo/Polestar are going, far more purposeful and way less gimmicky than Mercedes.
I'm with you. I love Tesla too and I also ordered 23 Polestar 2 Performance but cancelled and waiting for 24 refresh ordering to open up. Both different but fantastic in their own right!
The benefit of OEM parts known to work is that they probably have been utilized in other products already. If you own a Tesla and Tesla corp goes down, good luck getting parts and service. Even though not likely, It's absolutely possible. If you have a legacy brand your car most likely share parts with lots of other models. If people cannot see this as an issue they have either never had to repair a car or lived too short time to know better. Then again..... Never met a Tesla fanboy that would admit anything negative :) I'm no Tesla hater, but the subject deserve perspective.
@@davekozlowski1266 Not worried about neither Ford or GM going out of business. Still the world market is fully dominated by fossil cars. Those who survive the transition will become stronger with less competition than before. My point to begin with is not a lasting issue. Over time others will start to copy more Tesla parts so there will be alternatives. The best thing with Tesla is that they don't use that many parts.
In my opinion, Tesla and Lucid are the new generation of car manufacturers with people in charge who have brilliant ideas..It also matters who runs the company, for example Toyota when the general manager recently resigned and is from the heir family of the concern
I hope Rivian can make it to where they are less of a niche manufacturer. Software is so important -- my experience with automakers and charging networks has inspired me to go back to school.
This is why I believe Apple will be able to make a contribution to the automotive space when they make the own car: very few car makers understand software.
Hi Bjorn, love your videos! As a proud EQS owner I am probably biased but in response to your comments some stats & opinion why I chose legacy manufactured EQS over Lucid and Tesla; with 0,20 lowest CW value, front is only 1,43 mtr, with second row folded down largest boot trunk, much better manoeuvring w/ rear wheel stearing, better quality interior and overall finishing, best sound system ever!!!(Burmeister), and proper service organisation throughout Europe. No 1000 hp but honestly I don't care.
Lucid have 0.19 CW value it’s the lowest. Lucid rear + front boot is the largest storage among all sedans. Lucid is a smaller car relative to it’s class competitors so manoeuvrability is not an issue plus the full steering is wider than MS. Interior imo is much luxurious vs eqs that looks like an arcade inside. Lucid sound system is the only one with dolby atmos surround sound it’s literally like sitting in a cinema. All EQS have better is the service centers atm.
Unfortunately Lucid is way too late with their product. When the Model S came out there was no other electric car like it. Now people in the market for an executive EV can also get a Taycan, EQS or i7 from well established luxury brands. And while you can make hour long arguments about how great the tech is the fact of the matter is that in this segment people care more about brand and status and not efficiency or power output. Even Tesla is going nowhere with the Model S and X in terms of sales. Difference is they have mastered large scale EV production, are cost leaders with the Model Y and 3 and have the entire mass market in front of them. Meanwhile Lucid in their small segment are getting clearly outsold by the EQS in their home market and in Europe it will be even worse.
There is still nothing like the lucid. It has more range than all of the competition, charges faster and has more space. The biggest issue is that it's expensive AF. Noone in their right mind would buy the mercedes egg over the lucid at the same price, but somehow merc offers better value than the new boy on the block.
EQS selling more than model s? Where is this coming from? Mercedes cannot produce EQS at large scale. Furthermore, the emphasis on efficiency in terms of the design choice is standing in the way of the EQS. The only place seeing the EQS currently is at Mercedes dealerships and as company cars due to lower tax rate when used both as a company and private vehicle. Only 19,200 units sold in 2022...
I wish I could find the one I saw previously. They were asking Peter about if he thought they would have production issues like Tesla did. He pretty much said Tesla had production issues because he had already left Tesla and wasn't there then. Lucid wouldn't have those issues because he was better prepared than Elon was. Really funny how it's now working out for them.
Bjorn you left Thailand at a good time. Chiang Mai was the worse place on the planet yesterday for 2.5 particles. 23 times the WHO safe limit. It looked so beautiful in your drives up the mountain now it is so smoggy from all the farmers burning off the local officials are giving out free N95 masks. Hope your in-laws are OK.
Efficiency is the king, the Model Y has a small battery with 2 motors in such an efficient package. It's faster to the charge because it has that smaller battery. Add into that the heat pump and the constant updates to make the car even better. I had a P85 and the difference to the Y is staggering. Just look at GM and that Stooopid Hummer with the monster battery.. sure for the uneducated it looks like it has huge range, but then you need to charge that beast up. I love my Y, it's amazing..
Larger batteries can theoretically charge faster because you have more groups of cells in parallel. Assuming each group can take the same amount of amperage. You can move more kwh into the pack at any given time. But you also have to consider pouch vs cell and efficiency after the battery is charged.
Nio and BYD are also making everything in house aswell. NIO even make their own air suspension and brakes, now they are working on their own chips. Cool fact is that when Nio almost went bankrupt they needed to sell their Giga press to Tesla to survive. The Assembly of their cars is of course outsourced to save money.
No Björn you har 100 % correct. I totally agree with you. Tesla and Lucid are years ahead of the other car manufacturers. And that is due to that they are still building cars with other manufactures components... and in some instances which is worse when they build on a ICE car platform then it's compromised from the get go. My thoughts.
Peter is deffinatly an awsome engineer. wikipedia : Rawlinson has held several positions in the UK automotive industry, including Principal Engineer at Jaguar Cars, Chief Engineer at Lotus Cars and Head of Vehicle Engineering at Corus Automotive. After joining Tesla in 2010, Rawlinson served as Vice President of Vehicle Engineering and Vehicle Engineer of the Tesla Model S.
Ah ha…..your fellow Brit(Rawlinson) was surrounded by mediocre engineers in the UK. As soon as he moved to American companies(Tesla/Lucid) and surrounded himself by superior American engineers, he flourished….believe me, he was a nobody in EU when he was working there. If he ever goes back to Jaguar, he will suck again because he’s surrounded by mediocre Brit engineers…sorry 😂
Regarding Tesla motors vs Lucid motors, I think they have a little different priorities. Tesla has much more focus on cost and manufacturing, making a good motor that is easy and low cost to build. Lucid focus more on creating the "perfect motor", but the cost and manufacturing aspect of it may suffer.
Koenigsegg and Rimac develop and build a lot of things not only for themselfes but for legacy automakers too. Motors, electronics, gearboxes, chasis, you name it. I'm not certain but I think parts of the Taycan drivetrain came actually from Rimac or at least they have some sort of cooperation. For sure making you own stuff gives you a lot of options and less dependencies.
IDK if he watched the tear-downs or not, but Bjorn should really look over some of the videos from Munro. They are highly educational and yes, an EV car company can get really bad efficiency, just by using off-the-shelf parts with little logical & efficient integration.
just look at the Hummer EV.. it's a joke.. people that are not EV educated look at it and say.. "look at that range!" but also Look at how long it takes to freaking charge up
VW makes their own power train for the MEB platform and has actually been well received by Sandy Monroe, who took it apart and were quite impressed with the engineering behind it. I sometimes get a bit worried when a company like Tesla is trying to optimize or remove different parts to make it cut costs in the long run. Sure it's always good to optimize and save money, but it might come at a cost at a later stage in the cars lifetime if you are trying to cut costs everywhere. The established manufactuers know how to put a car together and know what works, but they are of course lightyears behind when it comes to software and thinking out of the box.
The beeping is really annoying... 🙂 I am completely with you to have everything in house you can change things much much quicker and better. SW could be tested much faster. The problem is not a messy code. It is more that there are so many different functions in every ECU and every part has a different programmer. Most of the people never see the whole ECU working.
Please try Mercedes EQXX, the claimed 1000km on single charge and very efficient from German car manufacturer. I would like to know if Mercedes can also work on tidying code or be another ninja for EV with Tesla and Lucid
@@geraldh.8047 Tech from that car should make it into future Mercedes. I think it is a tech showcase more than an actual model to be built in the future.
ModelS achieved on hypermiling 1.128km its definitly possible the question is always in what conditions. You can cheat alot on range tests, like putting tires with minimal roll resistance on the car, lowering suspension , limit acceleration output to an absolute minimum. Basicly non real world conditions anymore but achieve incredible results in some "concepts". The real efficency you see in Winter ~ 0°C If any car reaches 800km on that temperaturs while driving Highway / Autobahn speed .. Then Iam really impressed, but any other concept you always have to take carefuly. Speaking of Concept where are the ppl. with the Drive Pilot lvl3 system? Released 1 year ago, cant find any privat owner with that system :D
Wish tesla would focus more on the normal features like improve auto wipers, they are worse than my old 2010 merc, and auto dim mirrors, most cars dim them if they’re is a car behind with bright or wonky lights, but tesla does it based on when its sunset, which means you can’t see shit in them on a dark road.
Execpt if Tesla/Lucid has some manufacturing technology not owned by anyone else I'm not seeing how vertical integration is an advantage from a design /integration perspective.
I like you have info to share about Lucid, too. The problem with making all în house is true, there are avantages. On the other part we know that there is not possible for a producer to own the most advanced technologies for all parts of the car. Indeed, by making all în house it is easier to integrate and optimize. But as we know there is a company which has the most advanced patent for a component , another company with the best patent for other component, a.s.o. Thus, if a producer is taking one piece with the best technology from a supplier and other piece with best tech from another supplier finally the car would benefit from the most advanced tech even if not perfectly integrated. Companies making all în house are integrating perfectly parts which were not build with best technologies , or only some of them have the most advanced tech. Tesla and Lucid produced all în house due to this ideea for more optimization ? Perhaps, but also probably because they were forced to do this because there were not existing suppply chains for EV. Thus they had to manage somehow themselves. Now, due to this history , probably the in-house production is used as marketing for competing with the others. Tesla integrated better but was poor quality from other points of view, points were germans were better. During the time Tesla is covering better their poor points and germans are covering better their poor integration points. For example EQS is receiving heat pump plus engine disconnection. Conclusion, there are not clear advantages of Lucid and Tesla compared with germans, all of then will go close together.
I have to say I am a bit surprised that you reduce e.g. Mercedes to the EQC, which obviously was an urgency driven design to quickly get something purely electric into the portfolio. Shouldn't the assessment of the strategy rather be the EQS and EQE on the pure electric EVA2 as well as the roadmap that future EVs will be built on BEV-dedicated platforms? Also I was really surprised after all the praise and love for the EQS in your videos to hear no word about this vehicle in this video.
Do you want a tech company making cars or a car company making tech? There will be a crossover point, but can you stay liquid enough to reach that point as a tech company or can you adapt fast enough to the changing market as a traditional car company? Lucid is what Tesla should be in the evolution cycle at this stage, since Peter was Chief engineer at Tesla. But both are far from perfect for the price they command.
Never been inside a bev, but what happens if you want to get something out of the car when you walk up to it, does it always power up?, or can you just open the door, grab something then shut it with no power up.
Atleast in Germany, Tesla has a big disadvantage that comes from their understanding of right to repair and cost of replacement parts. Our insurance cost calculates on real world figures for different accidents. Most repair shops can't get any spare parts for Tesla, or they are ridicolously expensive and certification process for even be able to order the parts is stupid. That makes repairs difficult and so expensive, which makes insurance expensive. Teslas are along to top 10 most expensive vehicles to insure in germany. To put that in perspective: While for me an ID3 maxxed our model would cost me roughly 500€ per year to insure, a Base Model 3 would cost me 1600€ with the same conditions.
You can get 30 years ownership usage of a maintained ice car. (Vintage car clubs can show 70 year old ice cars- still roadworthy) How long do you guess- you can maintain a single EV purchase before you can't get it to run anymore. What in other words is their life expectancy, e.g. Shorter or longer life than ice, in practical cost long life terms
I think Hyundai does a lot of stuff in-house too (I've read somewhere they have their own chips and that's why they didn't suffer from the chip crisis as much, for example). And that might be a reason why they are not that far behind. I wonder what you think about the approach with the new Kona … that's a shared EV / fossil platform, but they started with EV first and then „remade“ it for fossils.
It would be such a shame. Currently, no other manufacturer can do such an efficient car with 800 km of real range (maybe Tesla could, but they won't go over 600/700 in the next years probably just to make more margins on cars)
bmw might outsource ice-motors production to Austria, UK and China - so I read by Merkur in Germany. they seem to focus on other regions - Africa, South America maybe. lots of folks there, no Tesla infrastructure... seems like no competition for ice cars. depending on those local markets (and plans for electrification there) might be a good plan. it also might be easier to "discuss" with authorities of small countries "in the galaxy far, far away" then here in Europe, everyone watching your steps
They will learn. They had some component shortages.. once those are solved.. but Peter was also talking about peoples lack of knowlidge 😊u Lucid. That can be intepreted as of lack of people wanting to buy one. They should have cheaper variants of Air. I think that Lucid Air Pure AWD, could be the perfect compromiss. They should also have smaller SUV, like Tesla Y competitor. And Lucid also could well their technogy to other manufacturers. There is actually some rumors that Lucid would sell their tech to Aston Martin. That would be super! Imagine AM DBX SUV with Lucid tech! Or new upcoming sports car from AM with Lucid tech. Why Lucid and AM could do this cooperation? Lucid is Mainly owned by PIF, but PIF has recently also purchased a stake of AM. And Stroll which is the main owner of AM was spoken that They would be interested about cooperation. AM Stock is now in really temptating price. If this Lucid cooperation come into true… What will happen after that?
Will they learn in time? I hope they make it, but I'm not sure they will with the amount of money they are burning and not much improvements on the cost side it seems.
2:20 this is how a lot of your viewers also feel. It's a weird oneway friendship thing that happens, because creator has shared a lot of what he's doing or what has been happening in their life.
28:40 the 2 minutes is legal requirement for fossils in many countries i think. Should not be idling more than 2 minutes. Pretty hilarious that they brought it over to EV's. And "my room" ? I'm guessing thats what you pick to indicate that "i'm idling on my own territory(room), i can go beyond 2 minutes" :D sheesh.. dinosaurs.
Fisker is doing the exact opposite of what Bjørn is talking about if Im not mistaken. From what I heard they are even going to outsource the entire manufacturing process.
I think you re a bit to positive for Lucid. Yes they have a really good car but they have a really big disadvantage from Tesla and that is that they cannot scale the production.
Big space for luggage, but you`re not allowed to utilize it. Max 415 kg luggage capasity, driver and passangers included. That means no luggage allowed if a family of 5 is in the car.
If you're referring to Model Y, that's the old weight limit. Newer Model Y has 562 kg. www.vegvesen.no/kjoretoy/kjop-og-salg/kjoretoyopplysninger/sjekk-kjoretoyopplysninger/?registreringsnummer=EE57870 That's actually more than many legacy automakers. For example Ioniq 5 can take only 445 kg: www.vegvesen.no/kjoretoy/kjop-og-salg/kjoretoyopplysninger/sjekk-kjoretoyopplysninger/?registreringsnummer=EC57366
Referring to Lucid Air. The car alone weighs 2435 kg empty. Total max weight is only 2850, leaving only 415 kg for driver, passangers and luggage, which makes it no good as a family carryer.
I don't think doing things in-house is explaining the lack of space and poor integration of many legacy OEMs products. Sure some of their off-the-shelf components have optimisation potential but still the main issue is they have huge, distributed teams working in their own silos and not looking for the overall integration. It's kind of a double whammy when you don't fully control the component design and suck at system integration. Also the 911 reference is not really correct as it's a product of decades of marginal improvements. That was and still is the way legacy business has been doing things forever, marginal improvements instead of radical redesigns.
I think the biggest thing is that tesla is building a car that has the best profit margin. They probably have improvements already planned that they dont need to implement yet (due to them being less economically efficient). The other companies are just using technology avaliable widely with no in house technology.
Tesla needs to work on refinement. NVH, ride quality (in 3 and Y), braking/handling, all of that needs improvement. Right now it may not matter that much but down the road it very much may. The end user, most car buyers, care nothing about vertical integration or Tesla's margins. They do care about what their cars feel like on some of the terribly bumpy roads at least we have in some markets and Teslas, at least the 3 and Y, don't shine on bumpy roads. Up the refinement and Tesla can be much better vehicles. Technology isn't just software for interfaces and functions, but also that aid car refinement. Turn some tech toward refinement.
I ran a national buying group for 5 years and was entertained by some of the best sales people in the world. Some sales people are so good you can end up walking around in some sort of spell bound trance for a few days afterwards. Peter sounds like one these sales guys. In the end though, you have to look at the practicalities of the market place. Lucid make a beautiful car but who can afford to own one? Like the Model S there is a very limited market but Tesla makes a lot of money on their model S and Lucid loses a lot of money on theirs so will Lucid be around in a few years to service the car? Has Lucid been forthcoming with a loaner car for all your real world testing? Does Lucid have a network of the best superchargers in the world? Is it aiming to produce very low cost cars with FSD software so everyone in the world can experience less pollution, lower cost of ownership and greater safety or are they just interested in the obsessive compulsive wanker market who need a straight jacket when they get a stone chip.
Keep in mind, best tech is not going to win the EV race. Manufacturing is going to win or kill your new EV company. you can make awesome tech with " infinite " amount of money or no regard to cost. but cost efficiency is key to success
Well because i7 is to accommodate ICE and BEV drivetrains. It would have been way way too expensive to engineer 2 different front. There is a display at DuPont office of Hyundai motor and Tesla Motor. Hyundai one is so much bigger. I don't recall Hyundai has a more powerful EV than Tesla. That tells you the efficient difference. I wanted to give legacy brand a go in EVs. I drove KIA EV6 for 6 months. I gave up!
Doesn't make sense for Lucid to export cars to U.K., Norway or any other country. Before Toyota, Nissan and Honda exported, they first succeeded in their home market. Same for Hyundai, VW, Tesla and all car companies. First come up with a successful product that sells in your home market. Then export. Lucid is holding off production because Lucid's cars aren't selling. The cars have a reputation of needing repairs and costing too much money. Given Lucid's lack of sales in the USA, chances of Lucid having success at exporting their cars, in the current state, seems unlikely
A lot of soft "bongs" as well as the loud alarms in that drive ... would really annoy me. Note Volvo also have no power button in the EV. Just get in, belt on, select drive and go ... then just stop, press P for park, release belt, get out and lock. - great 😃 For me ... there is far too much software automation crept in .. for its own clever sake. I enjoy driving, but full automation is a dangerous and expensive step too far, created by geeks to impress geeks. We become too reliant and trusting of something that even now can't provide reliable parking sensors.
I think you touched on a big topic that needs further discussion, and that’s aerodynamics. It is the biggest contributor by far to the highway efficiency, but legacy automaker designers are still in the mindset of making cars to look a certain way to follow their “design language”. For example, an electric jeep is simply never going to have good range on the highway, because you can’t cheat physics. With a gasoline car the inefficiency is an external cost, but for an ev it’s internalized, and not all oems understand that.
I always get icky when I hear these "legacy car maker" generalizations. Let me answer with hard numbers: Mercedes EQS drag cd=0.20, Porsche Taycan cd=0.22, Tesla Model S cd=0.208, Lucid Air Pure cd=0.20 ... they all are playing in the same league.
@@Alexander-ig6jm look at all the gasoline suvs, cuvs etc on the road at the moment. The concern is legitimate, we cannot simply make an electric version, because the aerodynamics just don’t work. The best current example is the ford lightning, which requires an enormous battery pack to compensate for the terrible aerodynamics. My point is that if you want to get as many people in evs as possible, the only way to get there is to design cars to be aerodynamic in order to reduce the size of the battery.
True. Ive never seen a car manufacture other than Tesla right now where the Steering Wheel is falling off while driving. This is outragous especially for that Money and because they just have a boring interiour. Imagine driving on a highway with your family and the steering wheel brakes off at 80 mph
Lucid also seems to have a better way of cooling the battery, compared to Tesla. Small motor, light car, wunderbox, compact battery, 800v system.. It would be perfect if Lucid built a smaller version, with a proper rear opening, and still with "good enough" range, while having the ekstra room in the footwell, by removing the battery component there.
According to all the nonstop advertisements from GM, their Ultium battery EVs will blow away the competition. Just look at that class-leading, JD Powel Award-winning, thirsty, or I mean, efficient HummerEV. Apparently, it's superior to anything Tesla can do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I own a 17 year old Honda Accord sedan , a 31 year old Audi sedan and a 26 year old Audi wagon avant. All Safety, emissions, checked, roadworthy. Where will these EV cars be in 20 years. What is the oldest EV (2012?) still on the road. I WORRY EV's Won't last as ice cars. Hence over time will cost more to replace more often. How long will your purchase last. Will you have to replace every 12-15 years
But the most underrated thing with Tesla is the really best infotainment system. You can such a lot of things to reduce "Ladeweile", the boring time during charging.
Legacy auto are not all the same, take look at Hyundai Ioniq 5 factory video, most of the electronics, drive unit and components are fabricated in house, other than the Batteries with a great deal of automation, more so than many others such as VW, BMW etc, mind you Hyundai have been making their own robots and even purchased General Dynamics a very advanced robotics manufacturer.
When Tesla finally maybe cares about build quality, ill maybe consider it again. Owned a 2018 TMS for 3 years.. Way to many trips to the service center, sold it out of anger.
These legacy autos are very good with ICE and have perfect the manufacturing process over past 100 years. However EVs are a totally different breed of Technological leap both in manufacturing processes. So this means one has to wait for both Tesla and Lucid to officially launch in our in-order sample.
Bjorn, this is such a simplist view. I thought you were smarter than this. What do you think that legacy automakers do? That they go to the components supermarket with the shopping cart and choose which components to buy and add them in the cart and then go to checkout? No. Each component in a vehicle is designed by a supplier according to the specifications and requirements of the automotive company. The difference is that after building combustion vehicles for 80 years, it will take some time to learn how to design electric vehicles. What would the alternative be? Fire 500.000 combustion vehicles specialists and hire electrical engineers, like Musk would do, or rather give them 2-3 vehicle generations to adapt to electrical vehicle design?
Hi, I work in the EV supply chain alongside OEMs. What you first described is exactly what they do. Sure, sometimes there are some slight changes made to products where necessary, but right now MANY components are taken straight off the shelf, especially with European and North American OEMs.
I disagree with the extent of vehicle specific design. Yes they are designed to fulfill the OEM requirements but in practice it means the off-the-shelf components are adapted to the customer specific requirements, i.e. SW, some I/Os, wiring etc is customer specific but the main HW is the same.
Bjørn's point is exclusively from a purely technical perspective. What challenges, for example, older car manufacturers have with the transition to EVs and how they handle this is a completely different discussion.
Tesla is aiming to be the Dacia of EVs. Delete everything until just the basics are left. I'd rather have a nicer car from a German or Korean legacy auto maker, and live with a bit less efficiency. Legacy auto is now announcing new EVs all the time, much more exciting in terms of new products. While Tesla are only able to make two models in RHD, which are very similar to each other, there are a plethora of options from legacy auto makers. e.g. Mercedes: EQA, EQB, EQC, EQE, EQS, EQS SUV, EQV - so much for lagging behind. The days of Tesla being the only horse in town are over! Lucid are an irrelevance.
I honestly don’t know what you mean with ‘just the basics are left’. Yes, the design is basic and you won’t see much of whats going on by just looking at it, but the cars are equiped with almost every option you have to pay for in any Mercedes, Audi, BMW or Porsche, as standard. They can built the car for way less money by optimizing the manufacturing proces in every way possible. It’s mostly a matter of taste, and yes I would rather take a Taycan Turbo S over a Model S Plaid if money was no issue but for the money you cannot buy a mid-size EV that is more advanced than a Model 3 or Model Y, not even close.
Most people care about getting most space-range-performance-safety-features for their money. This is where Tesla excels. Yeah there are better cars, but not better value cars. So yeah, you might like BMW, but will you pay 20.000 more just to get that badge?
Had a Toyota BZ4X ad on this video. Made me chuckle
Lol 😂🎉
Tesla's "Octovalve" is another good example for vertical integration. They designed a completely integrated temperature management system for the whole car, where other manufacturers plug different components together - heat pumps are even optional for many cars.
Norwegian scenery is beautiful, and always great to hear Bjørn’s thoughts.
I love these off the cuff long format videos. So many pearls in this video regarding EVs and the state of the industry. Keep them coming please 🙏🏻.
Don't get why this didn't get more views.
I just sold my Ioniq5 AWD SEL on Monday.
Tomorrow I am going to pick up *Tesla MY LR* !!!
Can't wait! I have never been so excited for a new car!!!
Why you sold it?
@@sasastojanovic5552 first of all: here in Iceland Ioniq5 went up with price a lot (bought mine in May 2022), Tesla on other hand dropped the price 20% month ago and the same day I placed an order.
I always wanted model Y but it was a little bit too expensive when I was looking for a first EV.
I used the opportunity, sold the Ioniq5 for more than I payed in May 2022 (and I clocked 25.000km on it). Tesla pick up is tomorrow.
Ioniq5 was cool. I will not get on to technical specs here: super fast charging car but only in a perfect setting. I had no chance to try the battery heating software upgrade when you approaching the charger. Without the upgrade I never exceed 170kWh charging speed as far as I remember. Super comfortable: both the ride and seats. Extraordinary looking car imo. Very pleasant interior: I had white leather. Suspensions on a softer side: aggressive driving and cornering unappealing.
Car is to low to the ground for me. 15.5cm don't cut it. I ripped some of the soft fibreglass cloth on hard snow. We had a rough winter. Warranty not covered it. Had to pay. I was unhappy. The material is very soft... Like hard cardboard when wet. Other thing is the big deep space where the wipers arm are.. When defrosting the windscreen all this wet snow goes there and freezes. Had issues with it. The biggest problem was a rattling sound coming somewhere from the front. I could not figure out from where exactly. Service couldn't also. It appeared mainly with speeds above 50km/h and during windy days.
I think it is connected with blades covering the radiator. They open and close when needed. Over engineered IMHO. When snowing, the white stuff goes to the opening and prevents the blades from closing... Then it becomes ice and it is difficult to get the ice from ther. Also I cracked a lower part of the bumper in freezing weather on a hard snow. The bumper is over engineered as well and fragile. Very delicate. Not very flexible.
I have a feeling the car is not ment for a winter climate. Just my opinion.
Still the coolest car I ever owned. Comfort is amazing. BOSE soundsystem is awesome! Very quiet cabin (I doubt Tesla will be as quiet). High torque. Very nippy ride. Fast acceleration. Lacks power with higher speeds (but only for people who driven Tesla's, iPace's, Polestar's etc).
Very big disadvantage is the aerodynamics - with Icelandic strong winds, the high drag coefficient kills the range dramatically (Tesla Y is the most aerodynamic SUV on the market).
In summer with no wind I could achieve +400km of range on a road trip (always music and auto HVAC between 18-21°C).
In winter with wind it is around 270-320km on a full charge. It all depends on many factors though. I drive rather dynamically for example. Heating the battery before the journey helps a lot.
Iceland is a rough and difficult environment: cold, windy, uneven and rough asphalt. Not the Ioniq's favourite surroundings.
If possible, keep us informed on how the model Y hold up in the winter you described in Iceland. I live in canada(Saskatchewan) and I own a 2022 Model Y, it's my first winter with it and it's been great so far. The coldest temp I've driven in is -37c, I lost about 35% of my range but no issues in those temp, heater worked awsome, which was what I feared the most when I ordered it.
Key to this is that Tesla, Lucid & Rivian have no legacy/ideological baggage of ICE to hold them back. A clean sheet advantage gives them the ability to focus on making better EVs rather than juggling the 2 drive trains to avoid disappearing into oblivion!
Who owns Lucid Motors?...
well a lot of brands have multiple ev models now and at some point after 2035 they will be making mostly or only evs ...but they can already match pretty closely the brands focused only on evs ....they weren't matching them a few years ago
But that's also their weakness, IMO. Legacy cars do better in the total car areas, suspensions, body construction, and in some ways handling and definitely braking (at least in the ICE cars) because of the auto sports traditions. I'm not blown away by the ground-up BEVs from Tesla because I don't feel they are on the same levels fundamentally as cars. That's my argument. The software part is computerizing a car but that's doesn't equal the engineering of experience of making a true car. In time, the advantages Tesla, Rivian, Lucid have won't be as pronounced and the legacy advantages won't be as pronounced. I'm still in the cars are vehicles first school but if you are in the cars are computers on wheels school, then Tesla and the others may appeal more to you.
@@pumpuppthevolume who's making EVs in any volume? Only companies other than Chinese brands are VW and Tesla. No other manufacturer makes 100,000+ per year.
@Dave Kozlowski did I say something about numbers or what's most popular at the moment ....I was talking about matching the quality .....if u want those numbers search for 100% Electric Vehicles = 13% Of New Vehicle Sales Globally!
As a Hyundai IONIQ 5 owner, got the battery preconditioning update today and didnt pay anything. Thing is it is free if you get it with the car's service, but if you want it right away then you have to pay 1500NOK.
Kia still dragging their heels on this in the US and Europe.. The preheating update is rumored to be a few weeks away for the EV6. Fortunately the '23 models and late 22's have this by default. Respect to Bjorn for being one of the only reviewers for doing proper tests and pointing out the coldgating issues.
@@JonasDavidsson For an EV6? Which country? AFAIK only Norway has started doing it.
@@JonasDavidsson Scandi countries seem to be better served than the rest of Europe!
I love Tesla but I have some passion for Polestar too. The code that I have written is in that car 😀
Congratulations.
One day I delivered for my company parts for Maserati granturismo folgore test cars, but i still love teslas :)
Polestar's advantage is it is a sports- tuned Volvo, tbh. The body structure is robust and if they can fine tune the suspension a measure or two better than Volvo has done in their current cars, it's a winner. The handling is already terrific but the ride needs to be more supple IMO. As far as software goes, Polestar is working on it. May take a bit more time but I like where Volvo/Polestar are going, far more purposeful and way less gimmicky than Mercedes.
I'm with you. I love Tesla too and I also ordered 23 Polestar 2 Performance but cancelled and waiting for 24 refresh ordering to open up. Both different but fantastic in their own right!
The benefit of OEM parts known to work is that they probably have been utilized in other products already. If you own a Tesla and Tesla corp goes down, good luck getting parts and service. Even though not likely, It's absolutely possible. If you have a legacy brand your car most likely share parts with lots of other models.
If people cannot see this as an issue they have either never had to repair a car or lived too short time to know better.
Then again..... Never met a Tesla fanboy that would admit anything negative :)
I'm no Tesla hater, but the subject deserve perspective.
If you're worried about Tesla going out of business, I would be more worried about GM and Ford if we do migrate to EVs.
@@davekozlowski1266 Not worried about neither Ford or GM going out of business. Still the world market is fully dominated by fossil cars. Those who survive the transition will become stronger with less competition than before. My point to begin with is not a lasting issue. Over time others will start to copy more Tesla parts so there will be alternatives. The best thing with Tesla is that they don't use that many parts.
In my opinion, Tesla and Lucid are the new generation of car manufacturers with people in charge who have brilliant ideas..It also matters who runs the company, for example Toyota when the general manager recently resigned and is from the heir family of the concern
Hard to decide if I'm more envious of Tesla Model S or those landscapes. 😭
Seeing the landscapes on video just embrace them for what they are. Not the same as being there for absolutely sure, but still nice to see.
I hope Rivian can make it to where they are less of a niche manufacturer. Software is so important -- my experience with automakers and charging networks has inspired me to go back to school.
This is why I believe Apple will be able to make a contribution to the automotive space when they make the own car: very few car makers understand software.
Hi Bjorn, love your videos! As a proud EQS owner I am probably biased but in response to your comments some stats & opinion why I chose legacy manufactured EQS over Lucid and Tesla; with 0,20 lowest CW value, front is only 1,43 mtr, with second row folded down largest boot trunk, much better manoeuvring w/ rear wheel stearing, better quality interior and overall finishing, best sound system ever!!!(Burmeister), and proper service organisation throughout Europe. No 1000 hp but honestly I don't care.
Lucid have 0.19 CW value it’s the lowest. Lucid rear + front boot is the largest storage among all sedans. Lucid is a smaller car relative to it’s class competitors so manoeuvrability is not an issue plus the full steering is wider than MS. Interior imo is much luxurious vs eqs that looks like an arcade inside. Lucid sound system is the only one with dolby atmos surround sound it’s literally like sitting in a cinema. All EQS have better is the service centers atm.
Unfortunately Lucid is way too late with their product. When the Model S came out there was no other electric car like it. Now people in the market for an executive EV can also get a Taycan, EQS or i7 from well established luxury brands. And while you can make hour long arguments about how great the tech is the fact of the matter is that in this segment people care more about brand and status and not efficiency or power output. Even Tesla is going nowhere with the Model S and X in terms of sales. Difference is they have mastered large scale EV production, are cost leaders with the Model Y and 3 and have the entire mass market in front of them. Meanwhile Lucid in their small segment are getting clearly outsold by the EQS in their home market and in Europe it will be even worse.
There is still nothing like the lucid. It has more range than all of the competition, charges faster and has more space. The biggest issue is that it's expensive AF. Noone in their right mind would buy the mercedes egg over the lucid at the same price, but somehow merc offers better value than the new boy on the block.
EQS selling more than model s? Where is this coming from? Mercedes cannot produce EQS at large scale. Furthermore, the emphasis on efficiency in terms of the design choice is standing in the way of the EQS. The only place seeing the EQS currently is at Mercedes dealerships and as company cars due to lower tax rate when used both as a company and private vehicle. Only 19,200 units sold in 2022...
Holy Christ the chimes are annoying! Almost makes the video unwatchable…..pro tip: mute and read CC closed captions
The third company in the world is Rimac from Croatia. Since recently Bugatti-Rimac.
You should do an interview with CEO of Lucid.
Why? Is it because Lucid Motors is de facto owned by the Saudi Military Dictator who owns some 61% of the corporation?...
I wish I could find the one I saw previously. They were asking Peter about if he thought they would have production issues like Tesla did. He pretty much said Tesla had production issues because he had already left Tesla and wasn't there then. Lucid wouldn't have those issues because he was better prepared than Elon was. Really funny how it's now working out for them.
Thanks Bjørn, I love this nerdy stuff
Bjorn you left Thailand at a good time. Chiang Mai was the worse place on the planet yesterday for 2.5 particles. 23 times the WHO safe limit. It looked so beautiful in your drives up the mountain now it is so smoggy from all the farmers burning off the local officials are giving out free N95 masks. Hope your in-laws are OK.
Efficiency is the king, the Model Y has a small battery with 2 motors in such an efficient package. It's faster to the charge because it has that smaller battery. Add into that the heat pump and the constant updates to make the car even better. I had a P85 and the difference to the Y is staggering. Just look at GM and that Stooopid Hummer with the monster battery.. sure for the uneducated it looks like it has huge range, but then you need to charge that beast up. I love my Y, it's amazing..
Yes. Lucid is more efficient.
Larger batteries can theoretically charge faster because you have more groups of cells in parallel. Assuming each group can take the same amount of amperage. You can move more kwh into the pack at any given time. But you also have to consider pouch vs cell and efficiency after the battery is charged.
@@GROGU123 that’s true. But if that car is inefficient then that speed is wasted
Nio and BYD are also making everything in house aswell. NIO even make their own air suspension and brakes, now they are working on their own chips. Cool fact is that when Nio almost went bankrupt they needed to sell their Giga press to Tesla to survive. The Assembly of their cars is of course outsourced to save money.
No Björn you har 100 % correct. I totally agree with you. Tesla and Lucid are years ahead of the other car manufacturers. And that is due to that they are still building cars with other manufactures components... and in some instances which is worse when they build on a ICE car platform then it's compromised from the get go. My thoughts.
Peter is deffinatly an awsome engineer. wikipedia :
Rawlinson has held several positions in the UK automotive industry, including Principal Engineer at Jaguar Cars, Chief Engineer at Lotus Cars and Head of Vehicle Engineering at Corus Automotive.
After joining Tesla in 2010, Rawlinson served as Vice President of Vehicle Engineering and Vehicle Engineer of the Tesla Model S.
Ah ha…..your fellow Brit(Rawlinson) was surrounded by mediocre engineers in the UK. As soon as he moved to American companies(Tesla/Lucid) and surrounded himself by superior American engineers, he flourished….believe me, he was a nobody in EU when he was working there. If he ever goes back to Jaguar, he will suck again because he’s surrounded by mediocre Brit engineers…sorry 😂
Regarding Tesla motors vs Lucid motors, I think they have a little different priorities. Tesla has much more focus on cost and manufacturing, making a good motor that is easy and low cost to build. Lucid focus more on creating the "perfect motor", but the cost and manufacturing aspect of it may suffer.
Everyone should watch the Tesla Investor Day to really understand how vertically integrated the whole company is.
Hi Björn, helpful insights! By the way: are the continuously jingling blims and blams during your trip standard at Tesla? I would go crazy!!
You can turn them off.
No, you can't.
@Bjørn Nyland, On my Tesla 3 I can mute the cruise control blims. Is that not possible on the newer Model S?
Talking about vertical integration, BYD enters the chat.
Koenigsegg and Rimac develop and build a lot of things not only for themselfes but for legacy automakers too. Motors, electronics, gearboxes, chasis, you name it. I'm not certain but I think parts of the Taycan drivetrain came actually from Rimac or at least they have some sort of cooperation. For sure making you own stuff gives you a lot of options and less dependencies.
@@ArbitraryFilmings ah ok, thx.
Nope. Rimac is so good, everyone wants their shares. VW offered Bugatti brand to get more Rimac shares.
@@ArbitraryFilmings I'm not sure Porsche makes their own electric motors. What's your source?
The norwegian scenery looks magnificent not gonna lie.
What it is with that car? Its making some kind of sound every 30-60 seconds?
Does Polestar / Volvo make their motors in house?
IDK if he watched the tear-downs or not, but Bjorn should really look over some of the videos from Munro. They are highly educational and yes, an EV car company can get really bad efficiency, just by using off-the-shelf parts with little logical & efficient integration.
21:19
just look at the Hummer EV.. it's a joke.. people that are not EV educated look at it and say.. "look at that range!" but also Look at how long it takes to freaking charge up
VW makes their own power train for the MEB platform and has actually been well received by Sandy Monroe, who took it apart and were quite impressed with the engineering behind it. I sometimes get a bit worried when a company like Tesla is trying to optimize or remove different parts to make it cut costs in the long run. Sure it's always good to optimize and save money, but it might come at a cost at a later stage in the cars lifetime if you are trying to cut costs everywhere. The established manufactuers know how to put a car together and know what works, but they are of course lightyears behind when it comes to software and thinking out of the box.
The beeping is really annoying... 🙂
I am completely with you to have everything in house you can change things much much quicker and better. SW could be tested much faster.
The problem is not a messy code. It is more that there are so many different functions in every ECU and every part has a different programmer. Most of the people never see the whole ECU working.
Interesting Material for making motor.
Renault make motors in house too
Please try Mercedes EQXX, the claimed 1000km on single charge and very efficient from German car manufacturer. I would like to know if Mercedes can also work on tidying code or be another ninja for EV with Tesla and Lucid
@@geraldh.8047 Tech from that car should make it into future Mercedes. I think it is a tech showcase more than an actual model to be built in the future.
ModelS achieved on hypermiling 1.128km its definitly possible the question is always in what conditions. You can cheat alot on range tests, like putting tires with minimal roll resistance on the car, lowering suspension , limit acceleration output to an absolute minimum. Basicly non real world conditions anymore but achieve incredible results in some "concepts". The real efficency you see in Winter ~ 0°C If any car reaches 800km on that temperaturs while driving Highway / Autobahn speed .. Then Iam really impressed, but any other concept you always have to take carefuly. Speaking of Concept where are the ppl. with the Drive Pilot lvl3 system? Released 1 year ago, cant find any privat owner with that system :D
Wish tesla would focus more on the normal features like improve auto wipers, they are worse than my old 2010 merc, and auto dim mirrors, most cars dim them if they’re is a car behind with bright or wonky lights, but tesla does it based on when its sunset, which means you can’t see shit in them on a dark road.
Hmm 🤔 Maybe there can even be a frickin' moose party in the Lucid frunk? 😂
Execpt if Tesla/Lucid has some manufacturing technology not owned by anyone else I'm not seeing how vertical integration is an advantage from a design /integration perspective.
Do the Lucid 1000km test. 😊
I like you have info to share about Lucid, too. The problem with making all în house is true, there are avantages. On the other part we know that there is not possible for a producer to own the most advanced technologies for all parts of the car. Indeed, by making all în house it is easier to integrate and optimize. But as we know there is a company which has the most advanced patent for a component , another company with the best patent for other component, a.s.o. Thus, if a producer is taking one piece with the best technology from a supplier and other piece with best tech from another supplier finally the car would benefit from the most advanced tech even if not perfectly integrated. Companies making all în house are integrating perfectly parts which were not build with best technologies , or only some of them have the most advanced tech. Tesla and Lucid produced all în house due to this ideea for more optimization ? Perhaps, but also probably because they were forced to do this because there were not existing suppply chains for EV. Thus they had to manage somehow themselves. Now, due to this history , probably the in-house production is used as marketing for competing with the others. Tesla integrated better but was poor quality from other points of view, points were germans were better. During the time Tesla is covering better their poor points and germans are covering better their poor integration points. For example EQS is receiving heat pump plus engine disconnection. Conclusion, there are not clear advantages of Lucid and Tesla compared with germans, all of then will go close together.
The whole Tesla design is better. Mercedes is around 1,000# heavier, not near the storage, no OTA updates and the list goes on and on.
@@davekozlowski1266 True. However I see people are looking at EQS while Tesla is going unnoticed.
I have to say I am a bit surprised that you reduce e.g. Mercedes to the EQC, which obviously was an urgency driven design to quickly get something purely electric into the portfolio. Shouldn't the assessment of the strategy rather be the EQS and EQE on the pure electric EVA2 as well as the roadmap that future EVs will be built on BEV-dedicated platforms? Also I was really surprised after all the praise and love for the EQS in your videos to hear no word about this vehicle in this video.
Do you want a tech company making cars or a car company making tech? There will be a crossover point, but can you stay liquid enough to reach that point as a tech company or can you adapt fast enough to the changing market as a traditional car company? Lucid is what Tesla should be in the evolution cycle at this stage, since Peter was Chief engineer at Tesla. But both are far from perfect for the price they command.
Never been inside a bev, but what happens if you want to get something out of the car when you walk up to it, does it always power up?, or can you just open the door, grab something then shut it with no power up.
Yes, but also turns off after door closing.
@@geraldh.8047 thanks.
@@JetFire9 thanks.
@@sworksm552 thanks.
Björn wen a test from de model Y rw in cold weather
Why not including Rivian too? They have already 2 models in production and everything is developed in house
What is up with all those beeps and warnings?? I'd go crazy!
Is BYD similar? I believe they have high levels of vertical integration, though hamstrung by Chinese software I guess.
I still believe ByD is making cells only not the motors. As their motor warranty is less than other manufacturers and not that efficient as well
Atleast in Germany, Tesla has a big disadvantage that comes from their understanding of right to repair and cost of replacement parts. Our insurance cost calculates on real world figures for different accidents. Most repair shops can't get any spare parts for Tesla, or they are ridicolously expensive and certification process for even be able to order the parts is stupid. That makes repairs difficult and so expensive, which makes insurance expensive. Teslas are along to top 10 most expensive vehicles to insure in germany. To put that in perspective: While for me an ID3 maxxed our model would cost me roughly 500€ per year to insure, a Base Model 3 would cost me 1600€ with the same conditions.
You can get 30 years ownership usage of a maintained ice car. (Vintage car clubs can show 70 year old ice cars- still roadworthy) How long do you guess- you can maintain a single EV purchase before you can't get it to run anymore. What in other words is their life expectancy, e.g. Shorter or longer life than ice, in practical cost long life terms
I think Hyundai does a lot of stuff in-house too (I've read somewhere they have their own chips and that's why they didn't suffer from the chip crisis as much, for example). And that might be a reason why they are not that far behind.
I wonder what you think about the approach with the new Kona … that's a shared EV / fossil platform, but they started with EV first and then „remade“ it for fossils.
Good talk, but the video doesn't add to it. It should be pictures of the cars mentioned or make it as radio pod.
“Toyota’s software is fossil base”….😂😂😂
Unfortunatly Lucid wont make it. The numbers are just not good enough and they can not produce as they promissed.
It would be such a shame. Currently, no other manufacturer can do such an efficient car with 800 km of real range (maybe Tesla could, but they won't go over 600/700 in the next years probably just to make more margins on cars)
@@gabrielecomensoli2787 only germans need 800km of range, no one else.
It's very sad :'(
@@jonsboy8970 The United States has joined the chat
Except they’re back by the saudis so cash flow will likely not a problem, allowing them to scale.
bmw might outsource ice-motors production to Austria, UK and China - so I read by Merkur in Germany. they seem to focus on other regions - Africa, South America maybe. lots of folks there, no Tesla infrastructure... seems like no competition for ice cars. depending on those local markets (and plans for electrification there) might be a good plan. it also might be easier to "discuss" with authorities of small countries "in the galaxy far, far away" then here in Europe, everyone watching your steps
Wish I could stay for the full 43 minutes but I’m not in the car with you and have other things to do :)
for me eqs and lucid are best, cheap evs mt favourties are fisker and skoda
Rivian and Lucid have to join forces, together they will survive and become superior.
Lucid's problem is they didn't figure out mass manufacturing. Their full year of production for 2022 is Tesla's output for one day.
They will learn. They had some component shortages.. once those are solved.. but Peter was also talking about peoples lack of knowlidge 😊u Lucid. That can be intepreted as of lack of people wanting to buy one. They should have cheaper variants of Air. I think that Lucid Air Pure AWD, could be the perfect compromiss. They should also have smaller SUV, like Tesla Y competitor. And Lucid also could well their technogy to other manufacturers. There is actually some rumors that Lucid would sell their tech to Aston Martin. That would be super! Imagine AM DBX SUV with Lucid tech! Or new upcoming sports car from AM with Lucid tech. Why Lucid and AM could do this cooperation? Lucid is Mainly owned by PIF, but PIF has recently also purchased a stake of AM. And Stroll which is the main owner of AM was spoken that They would be interested about cooperation. AM Stock is now in really temptating price. If this Lucid cooperation come into true… What will happen after that?
Will they learn in time? I hope they make it, but I'm not sure they will with the amount of money they are burning and not much improvements on the cost side it seems.
2:20 this is how a lot of your viewers also feel. It's a weird oneway friendship thing that happens, because creator has shared a lot of what he's doing or what has been happening in their life.
It think there even is a term/word for that, but can't remember what it is
Peter has obviously stolen your❤ ,more mentioning of his name in this episode,you really should have called it the Peter show 🤣
Frrom Bjorn, I learned the word hu·mon·gous
28:40 the 2 minutes is legal requirement for fossils in many countries i think. Should not be idling more than 2 minutes. Pretty hilarious that they brought it over to EV's.
And "my room" ? I'm guessing thats what you pick to indicate that "i'm idling on my own territory(room), i can go beyond 2 minutes" :D sheesh.. dinosaurs.
I’m also curious about the new upcoming Fisker Ocean. I think they also do EVs differently
Fisker is doing the exact opposite of what Bjørn is talking about if Im not mistaken. From what I heard they are even going to outsource the entire manufacturing process.
yeah. they don't build their own cars like Tesla and Lucid. And have no IP except visual design.
Ah interesting. Is that because their plant burned down once?
Fisker is like Nikola. Big talk and no delivery.
The Fisker Ocean is an SUV. That will never be as efficient as a regular car like the Model 3 or the BMW i4.
I think you re a bit to positive for Lucid. Yes they have a really good car but they have a really big disadvantage from Tesla and that is that they cannot scale the production.
for the win🚀
Big space for luggage, but you`re not allowed to utilize it. Max 415 kg luggage capasity, driver and passangers included. That means no luggage allowed if a family of 5 is in the car.
If you're referring to Model Y, that's the old weight limit. Newer Model Y has 562 kg.
www.vegvesen.no/kjoretoy/kjop-og-salg/kjoretoyopplysninger/sjekk-kjoretoyopplysninger/?registreringsnummer=EE57870
That's actually more than many legacy automakers. For example Ioniq 5 can take only 445 kg:
www.vegvesen.no/kjoretoy/kjop-og-salg/kjoretoyopplysninger/sjekk-kjoretoyopplysninger/?registreringsnummer=EC57366
Referring to Lucid Air. The car alone weighs 2435 kg empty. Total max weight is only 2850, leaving only 415 kg for driver, passangers and luggage, which makes it no good as a family carryer.
I don't think doing things in-house is explaining the lack of space and poor integration of many legacy OEMs products. Sure some of their off-the-shelf components have optimisation potential but still the main issue is they have huge, distributed teams working in their own silos and not looking for the overall integration. It's kind of a double whammy when you don't fully control the component design and suck at system integration.
Also the 911 reference is not really correct as it's a product of decades of marginal improvements. That was and still is the way legacy business has been doing things forever, marginal improvements instead of radical redesigns.
Correct! conways law in action
I think the biggest thing is that tesla is building a car that has the best profit margin. They probably have improvements already planned that they dont need to implement yet (due to them being less economically efficient). The other companies are just using technology avaliable widely with no in house technology.
Tesla needs to work on refinement. NVH, ride quality (in 3 and Y), braking/handling, all of that needs improvement. Right now it may not matter that much but down the road it very much may. The end user, most car buyers, care nothing about vertical integration or Tesla's margins. They do care about what their cars feel like on some of the terribly bumpy roads at least we have in some markets and Teslas, at least the 3 and Y, don't shine on bumpy roads. Up the refinement and Tesla can be much better vehicles. Technology isn't just software for interfaces and functions, but also that aid car refinement. Turn some tech toward refinement.
Good lord those tesla sounds are annoying as hell, what the hell is causing that lol
I ran a national buying group for 5 years and was entertained by some of the best sales people in the world. Some sales people are so good you can end up walking around in some sort of spell bound trance for a few days afterwards. Peter sounds like one these sales guys. In the end though, you have to look at the practicalities of the market place. Lucid make a beautiful car but who can afford to own one? Like the Model S there is a very limited market but Tesla makes a lot of money on their model S and Lucid loses a lot of money on theirs so will Lucid be around in a few years to service the car? Has Lucid been forthcoming with a loaner car for all your real world testing? Does Lucid have a network of the best superchargers in the world? Is it aiming to produce very low cost cars with FSD software so everyone in the world can experience less pollution, lower cost of ownership and greater safety or are they just interested in the obsessive compulsive wanker market who need a straight jacket when they get a stone chip.
@@vickykennel7414 LOL
Keep in mind, best tech is not going to win the EV race. Manufacturing is going to win or kill your new EV company. you can make awesome tech with " infinite " amount of money or no regard to cost. but cost efficiency is key to success
Well because i7 is to accommodate ICE and BEV drivetrains. It would have been way way too expensive to engineer 2 different front. There is a display at DuPont office of Hyundai motor and Tesla Motor. Hyundai one is so much bigger. I don't recall Hyundai has a more powerful EV than Tesla. That tells you the efficient difference. I wanted to give legacy brand a go in EVs. I drove KIA EV6 for 6 months. I gave up!
Making components inhouse is like Apple making their own chips. Everything is optimized.
Bjorn has come over too the 4k Darkside 👍
Greyscale side 😮
Doesn't make sense for Lucid to export cars to U.K., Norway or any other country. Before Toyota, Nissan and Honda exported, they first succeeded in their home market. Same for Hyundai, VW, Tesla and all car companies. First come up with a successful product that sells in your home market. Then export. Lucid is holding off production because Lucid's cars aren't selling. The cars have a reputation of needing repairs and costing too much money. Given Lucid's lack of sales in the USA, chances of Lucid having success at exporting their cars, in the current state, seems unlikely
A lot of soft "bongs" as well as the loud alarms in that drive ... would really annoy me. Note Volvo also have no power button in the EV. Just get in, belt on, select drive and go ... then just stop, press P for park, release belt, get out and lock. - great 😃 For me ... there is far too much software automation crept in .. for its own clever sake. I enjoy driving, but full automation is a dangerous and expensive step too far, created by geeks to impress geeks. We become too reliant and trusting of something that even now can't provide reliable parking sensors.
if a startbuttom is a big problem, then yo know you are living in a good part of the world.
I think that this Video will not age well. For example BMWs New class will be insane efficiency and power wise.
I think you touched on a big topic that needs further discussion, and that’s aerodynamics. It is the biggest contributor by far to the highway efficiency, but legacy automaker designers are still in the mindset of making cars to look a certain way to follow their “design language”. For example, an electric jeep is simply never going to have good range on the highway, because you can’t cheat physics. With a gasoline car the inefficiency is an external cost, but for an ev it’s internalized, and not all oems understand that.
I always get icky when I hear these "legacy car maker" generalizations. Let me answer with hard numbers: Mercedes EQS drag cd=0.20, Porsche Taycan cd=0.22, Tesla Model S cd=0.208, Lucid Air Pure cd=0.20 ... they all are playing in the same league.
@@Alexander-ig6jm look at all the gasoline suvs, cuvs etc on the road at the moment. The concern is legitimate, we cannot simply make an electric version, because the aerodynamics just don’t work. The best current example is the ford lightning, which requires an enormous battery pack to compensate for the terrible aerodynamics. My point is that if you want to get as many people in evs as possible, the only way to get there is to design cars to be aerodynamic in order to reduce the size of the battery.
True. Ive never seen a car manufacture other than Tesla right now where the Steering Wheel is falling off while driving. This is outragous especially for that Money and because they just have a boring interiour. Imagine driving on a highway with your family and the steering wheel brakes off at 80 mph
Lucid also seems to have a better way of cooling the battery, compared to Tesla. Small motor, light car, wunderbox, compact battery, 800v system..
It would be perfect if Lucid built a smaller version, with a proper rear opening, and still with "good enough" range, while having the ekstra room in the footwell, by removing the battery component there.
Du må skru av hjulstøyen Bjørn.....lenge siden det har vært en video med så mye bråk🤣
According to all the nonstop advertisements from GM, their Ultium battery EVs will blow away the competition. Just look at that class-leading, JD Powel Award-winning, thirsty, or I mean, efficient HummerEV. Apparently, it's superior to anything Tesla can do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Your Plaid sounds like made in China... 😁
I own a 17 year old Honda Accord sedan , a 31 year old Audi sedan and a 26 year old Audi wagon avant. All Safety, emissions, checked, roadworthy. Where will these EV cars be in 20 years. What is the oldest EV (2012?) still on the road. I WORRY EV's Won't last as ice cars. Hence over time will cost more to replace more often. How long will your purchase last. Will you have to replace every 12-15 years
Tesla was the first mover but lucid will crash against AUDI BMW and Mercs that offer great EV and BRAND. That price point is going to kill the company
👍
Including GM and Ford, you've extensively driven their EV's?
GM doesnt sell to the european market and Ford has just the mach-e here
And other Fords in Europe will be based on VWs MEB-Platform cause they are so far behind
But the most underrated thing with Tesla is the really best infotainment system. You can such a lot of things to reduce "Ladeweile", the boring time during charging.
Legacy auto are not all the same, take look at Hyundai Ioniq 5 factory video, most of the electronics, drive unit and components are fabricated in house, other than the Batteries with a great deal of automation, more so than many others such as VW, BMW etc, mind you Hyundai have been making their own robots and even purchased General Dynamics a very advanced robotics manufacturer.
When Tesla finally maybe cares about build quality, ill maybe consider it again. Owned a 2018 TMS for 3 years.. Way to many trips to the service center, sold it out of anger.
Crap bot spamming everywhere, better for you to go eat bananas
Lol, whats up with these bot comments. I'm so confused.
@@JetFire9 How did you manage that? Did you overpay really badly to be the first to have a plaid?
Build quality and refinement. Sometimes, the build quality is OK. But refinement isn't on the level of other cars in their price brackets.
well by what hear u rich norwegians better bye a lot of lucids to keep it in bussiness
Who owns Lucid Motors?...
people with big💰
@@fire_stick No shit... But that does not answer the question...
Saudi Arabia
@@Scrap-press Exactly. The Saudi Military Dictator is the de facto owner with some 61% of the shares in Lucid Motors... Makes me want to puke!
Lucid is American company but majority of shares owned by KSA
Nein PS/kg😮😮😂
It’s surprising with your knowledge of EVS you buying Peter’s lies. I recommend you do a little more research.
These legacy autos are very good with ICE and have perfect the manufacturing process over past 100 years. However EVs are a totally different breed of Technological leap both in manufacturing processes. So this means one has to wait for both Tesla and Lucid to officially launch in our in-order sample.
They have also used these 100 years to develop relationship with suppliers. Suppliers that they no longer need.
Bjorn, this is such a simplist view. I thought you were smarter than this. What do you think that legacy automakers do? That they go to the components supermarket with the shopping cart and choose which components to buy and add them in the cart and then go to checkout? No. Each component in a vehicle is designed by a supplier according to the specifications and requirements of the automotive company. The difference is that after building combustion vehicles for 80 years, it will take some time to learn how to design electric vehicles. What would the alternative be? Fire 500.000 combustion vehicles specialists and hire electrical engineers, like Musk would do, or rather give them 2-3 vehicle generations to adapt to electrical vehicle design?
Hi, I work in the EV supply chain alongside OEMs. What you first described is exactly what they do. Sure, sometimes there are some slight changes made to products where necessary, but right now MANY components are taken straight off the shelf, especially with European and North American OEMs.
I disagree with the extent of vehicle specific design. Yes they are designed to fulfill the OEM requirements but in practice it means the off-the-shelf components are adapted to the customer specific requirements, i.e. SW, some I/Os, wiring etc is customer specific but the main HW is the same.
Bjorn is correct
Bjørn's point is exclusively from a purely technical perspective. What challenges, for example, older car manufacturers have with the transition to EVs and how they handle this is a completely different discussion.
Hahahahaha you got completely destroyed by the first reply
Tesla is aiming to be the Dacia of EVs. Delete everything until just the basics are left. I'd rather have a nicer car from a German or Korean legacy auto maker, and live with a bit less efficiency. Legacy auto is now announcing new EVs all the time, much more exciting in terms of new products. While Tesla are only able to make two models in RHD, which are very similar to each other, there are a plethora of options from legacy auto makers. e.g. Mercedes: EQA, EQB, EQC, EQE, EQS, EQS SUV, EQV - so much for lagging behind. The days of Tesla being the only horse in town are over! Lucid are an irrelevance.
Yet Mercedes has failed to deliver a decent and efficient ev.
I honestly don’t know what you mean with ‘just the basics are left’.
Yes, the design is basic and you won’t see much of whats going on by just looking at it, but the cars are equiped with almost every option you have to pay for in any Mercedes, Audi, BMW or Porsche, as standard.
They can built the car for way less money by optimizing the manufacturing proces in every way possible.
It’s mostly a matter of taste, and yes I would rather take a Taycan Turbo S over a Model S Plaid if money was no issue but for the money you cannot buy a mid-size EV that is more advanced than a Model 3 or Model Y, not even close.
Most people care about getting most space-range-performance-safety-features for their money. This is where Tesla excels.
Yeah there are better cars, but not better value cars.
So yeah, you might like BMW, but will you pay 20.000 more just to get that badge?
Lucid is nowhere near Tesla.