I agree, it seems like you have way too many cacti in your videos, and I don't really support channels that accommodate to the likes of the prickly pears.
"We've been messin' with a lot of stuff." What else are two guys with guns in the desert be doing other than messing stuff? Another informative and entertaining video! Thank you, guys!! Well done!
I'm fairly certain you would see more shift than that with the SP1 if you used a optical sight. Since the front sight is mounted to the barrel it moves with the barrel and compensates. I shot a stock SP1 in early 3 gun and had to deal with this.
That is actually a really interesting point. I would like to see them do a video where they mount somthing to the carry handle to test this theory, maybe then using irons could be useful (assuming you don't have a free float with irons mounted to the handguard, but that would do the same thing as the optic then) if you knew your barrel would do that.
Very similar to my results. Mine has a distinct shift from COLD to anything else, but the difference once it's not stone cold and pretty hot is minimal. From (literally) ice cold to round 5 usually shows a nearly straight line downward, with four and five usually stable. From that point you can get pretty darn hot without any significant additional shift. This was an awesome project, guys. Congrats on getting it turned into a commercially available project. I made my own but you guys get full credit for convincing me to try it out.
Bad Cornflakes ツ yes... barrel profile doesnt affect the ability to shoot lead... rifling does... but at normal 556 velocities... lead projectiles with no jacket isnt a good idea
I used a 16" Faxon Gunner barrel instead of the 16" Pencil barrel. The Gunner barrel only weights 2.7 ounces more than the Pencil barrel. I feel that that slightly thicker barrel between the chamber and the gas port will keep barrel whip to a minimum when choosing a lightweight profile barrel.
@@randymagnum143 You know what they say, ounces make pounds. You go for slightly heavier options despite the lighter options working fine a few times you'll easily be a pound or two heavier.
@@randymagnum143 Yeah I tried to do LW build as well . I didn't use pencil barrel .Not a fan of pencil barrels . I got BCM URG MID 14.5" E.L.W. Fluted BFH with MCMR13 , Pinned YHM QD Flash Hider & YHM TURBO K Suppressor. For the Lower I went with LWRCI IC Full Ambi Controls Lower with CMC 3.5 Flat Single Stage Trigger. I put M.I. CRS Folding BUIS , Trijicon TR24 with Aero LW Scope mount & Inforce WML Gen 2. With fully loaded mag and all the mods it's 8.2 pounds . Sure if I got rid of the LPVO , and Suppressor it woukd be under 7 pounds . For modern fighting rifle / carbine . I think suppressor is must and LPVO makes perfect sense on 14.5".
I'm going to have to test this with my Troy pencil barrel and see what happens. That would be very valuable information to have. Thanks for all the great work, guys!
Do you guys really have so many problems with being accused of being shills? I mean, extensive testing like the sort you're doing on these WWSD guns will eventually lead to you finding parts you just *really like*, and want to share with the class. Isn't that sort of the point? I'm confused as to why people would keep ragging on you for shilling; the only thing I can think of is folks who're pissed that you're not 'shilling' for *their* favorite stuff, which makes no damn sense at all. Either way. Would've liked to see some more intense heat/stress testing, was hoping for some sort of 500-round Gun Murder to put these things to the REAL test, but even this was still informative. Will be a useful video when I argue with my buddies next time about pencil barrels! Thanks guys, keep it up.
Yes, and we've already been accused of it in these comments within an hour of this video going live. If you actually find a good product and say it, you're a shill. If you denigrate a bad product that people like, you're an idiot know nothing. That's how the internet works. ~Karl
Ahhhh, the Internet. Bringing out the trolls since Al Gore invented it! Ah well. I don't actually own an AR15 yet and am keeping careful track of these WWSD videos for when I manage to scrape up the funds to build one. You guys've swiftly become one of my primary sources for knowledge, given the utter vacuum of training or shooting around where I live. Didn't grow up shooting, trying to teach myself to do so without any real assistance is something of a bear. Videos like the ones you guys do help shave the bear somewhat. So don't sweat it too hard. There are definitely fans out there who can see that you're simply showing your work and trying to help out. To Gehenna with the loudmouths.
Unfortunately, various communities on RUclips have lots of problems with sponsored content not being disclosed, even though it's actually against the law not to disclose it. It sucks for honest content creators because it's not uncommon.
Yeah - except it's usually pretty clear when someone is trying to skate by on sketchy tests as opposed to doing actual work. These guys make an explicit point of *not* fishing for YT advertising funding - they're funded directly by people who like their stuff. Why risk pissing those guys off and losing your livelihood with undisclosed sponsorships? It just strikes me as bizarre. If you're not going to believe a word Ian and Karl say about anything they do...why're you tracking the channel? Blagh. Anyways! Yeah, I see the point about ammo expenditures. The testing is certainly still valid, and did indeed sell my buddies on modern pencil barrels. So that works out fine, especially since Faxon seems to have established some nice price points for their barrels. Definitely something to keep in mind when it's time to stop buying stuff for the Storm or the godforsaken SU and see about an AR.
Great test! And impressive shooting by Karl. The faxon shifting up may not even be barrel deflection but a function of the ammo performance ... as you would expect a shift up with a hot chamber = hotter ammo temperature before firing = higher muzzle velocity.
I remember when the barrel straightness gauge was added to the M16/M16A-1 gauge set. A lot of those bent barrel problems went away when the three prong flash suppressor was deleted. There was a habit of using the three prong suppressor to break the banding on C-RAT pallets. Somebody once told me that at the factory they used a projected light through the barrel to check them and a rod in the end to bend them straight. Don't know how true that is.
That's a shocking amount of poi shift from the sp1, good test and great information! I want to try the same test on my FN A4 style upper vs other carbines.
I was looking to buy a Faxon 18" barrel for my current build and was looking for a video just like this to validate going with a light barrel. Thanks guys.
That roughly 1" of rise in the second group on the Faxon barrel can be expected, with a hot chamber cooking the gun powder it gives you a hair more velocity causing a vertical POI shift.
I am a thin woman. Weight has always been an issue for me and I have always favored pencil barrels. Yes, older pencil barrels do tend to string out when they heat up but I haven't really found that to be an issue for several years now. I was in college from 88-98 and couldn't afford to shoot in that time period. I bought a couple of rifles after I started working in 99 and most of the pencil barrel issues I had seen in older guns seemed to have been resolved. They do heat up faster and groups do open up a bit but not enough to really gripe about. The old days of getting hot and shooting 2 feet to the left seem to be gone. Even when cold, newer pencil barrels seem to be more accurate than they were 30+years ago.
In my experience, pencil barrels are better than they were 20 or 30 years ago. I got a DD pencil barrel a while ago & I got an FN pencil barrel through PSA. They are both great. Point of impact doesn't change drastically until you get them up to temps I would consider abusive. I agree, the modern manufacturing has improved the quality overall, across most manufactures. No doubt, some are still better than others but, I think, the average quality of guns/parts has come up quite a bit over the last few decades.
I read someplace once that when the SAS wanted to adopt the CAR 15 ( the ones made by diemaco ) they requested a 15.7 inch heavy barrel for better accuracy and heat reduction, larry vickers said from his experience that pencil barrels work great but if its up to me i'd rather have a slightly heavier but more capable rifle
Interesting results. I do feel confident about thinner profile barrels nowadays although imo the Gunner profile barrel types seem ideal because the profile tapers and the thickest part of the barrel is behind the gas block which is important as most of the heat builds up back there if extended fire is concerned.
From what I've seen out of the 16in pencil barrel, you're pretty much on the mark with your process. Good Job. The only question remaining is will any carbon fiber handguard blems come up for sale and where could a fella sign up for that?
i think it's something to do with friction. friction , heat , stress, these all need to be released to avoid "a barrel rupture" , so i advise you make sure you manually relive any stress as soon as you can
Should be no need to do disclaimer that your not sponsored!!!! I think fans of this channel already know the two of you are some of the most credible on Facebook.
Great test guys. Good to know that companies have figured out stress relief. It might have been interesting to do 2 mag dumps, or a total of 40-50 rounds maybe, to see if that had any extra effect. But of course, ammo costs add up. This shows the point quite well. Thanks for the work you do
is one mag dump enough? For the SP101 it obviously is. I feel like however that if a company makes such claims it should be really stress tested. I also think comparing it to another modern pencil barrel manufacturer would be interesting. Great video though.
it would also be interesting to test if the zero shift is increasing relative to the ammount of rounds fired. ex with the modern barrels 1 mag dump = 1inch shift, 3 mag dumps = 3 inch shift or if it simply matters weather the barrel is hot or not. if it got progressively worse it could be quite problematic for a military aplication.
I'd imagine when the barrel has a glow to it that would effect the zero quite a bit, and also ruin the barrel. Other than that, at temperatures you'd care to heat a barrel up to, it shouldn't make too much of a difference. Hot is hot, until you start making it soft.
it would have been interesting to see the difference between every mag dump, dump a mag, test 5 rounds, dump a mag, test 5 rounds, dump a mag, test 5 rounds
dalem04 well, getting a barrel hot is important. The idea of the project is to create a firearm stoner would make in the modern day and they often compare them to what someone might use in the military and in the military you easily put several mags through a gun in a few minutes.
the procedure the german army came up with as a worst case scenario and tested the g36 against was 10round group 20 round mag dump reload 30 round mag dump reload 10 round group 20 rounds in 1 min reload 10 round group 20 rounds in 5 min reload 20 rounds in 5 min 10 round group i dont think you will ever actually test this full scenario but it would be interesting for comparison
Would be interesting to see a sequence of two strings of three 9-hole groups. Seeing what the deflection would be over three consecutive groups may be more indicative of the degree by which your rounds will shift.
You guys are such shills! All I ever see you all use are sharpies when marking targets, phhhttt..... you must be paid by them. Lol. Still, can't avoid watching your videos, they're great.
Does having a conventionally stocked non freefloat handguard AR and free floated handguard a variable here? How would a non stress relieved pencil barrel with a FF perform?
I've been saying this for a while. I have a Daniel defense V9LW with a pencil barrel and I haven't had POI shifts after dumping mags either. given that I think it's crazy not to get a pencil barrel if you plant to hump it very far
An interesting follow up would be to remove the SP1 barrel, send it off for stress relief, shoot some new groups, and see how much difference it made on a used, already machined barrel.
Funny how when I first got into AR's I never really gave a flying fig for the old original configuration. But the longer I'm shooting one, and the more I learn, the more I'm intrigued by the "roots". :-)
You missed a variable, it looks to me that the SP1 does not have a free floated barrel. I would be curious if swaping in a set of free float hand gaurds would make a difference.
Is it possible to see what a larger profile, or composite barrel might do in comparison? I've seen some ceramics that are supposed to be ultra light but very rigid, and a thicker barrel, while certainly heavier, seems a pretty proven concept
Good stuff--I was waiting for the SP1 comparison, which was needed to draw the conclusion. You likely already know this, but OnTarget has a software product that calculates mean point of impact for groups on any target, as long as you can put the target into a scanner. Of course, you'd have to either lug a scanner into the desert or cut back to your den to show the results.
For a military rifle a heavy barrel end to end has an important advantage when using bayonets. The cut outs under the handguards of the government A2 is because of the M203, they should have increased the diameter of the clamps rather than machined away the metal from the barrel.
I'm building a second upper for my ultra light V Seven shtf build just for fun to see how much lighter I can make it after my SBR approval comes back and my EA ARX gets out of jail and I kept debating going pencil barrel but I was worried about this POI shift so bad and I couldn't hit the weight goal I had. Now I'm beyond thrilled to have faith that it will still be as accurate as I wanted while hitting my ridiculous weight goal. This SBR will be a direct threaded 14.5 pencil barrel rifle that will weigh 4.8 pounds WITH optic, suppressor, and a full 30 round magazine. No polymer or magnesium receiver parts either. The normal shtf setup at 16" currently weighs 6lbs loaded (with suppressor factored in even though I don't have it yet)
I had a 1910 vintage Mannlicher Schoenauer 6.5 x 54mm factory sporting rifle. It had the short front end and a 25" pencil barrel. You only got 2 or maybe three at a pinch, shots on a 4" target at 200 yds and the next shots would be outside of the required 4" group (standard accuracy demanded for deer stalking in the UK) due to barrel warp. This was particularly noticeable with the standard 160 grain round nose ammunition (2100 fps). If I used 120grain spitzer bullets (2550 fps), which spent less time in the barrel, I could get 4 or maybe 5 shots on target.
i'd like to see this test done with mini 14's like an old 90's one and a new one to see if their pencil barrels are really as bad as the internet says they are, and if they are, how much the changes ruger did later help.
The shift on the SP1 is more like 6 inches not 4 1/2 inches. Just count the number of squares from the X on the first group to the X on the second group. You have a built in scale on the target itself.
Very interesting. I have a question based on that comment about the barrel whip with the different barrel lengths. You guys mentioned that the 14.5 should theoretically be more accurate since it will whip less than the 16, and the test appears to show that. That being said, would that make 14.5 more appropriate for a general purpose/combat lightweight carbine, since you'd expect to use multiple magazines in a firefight?
My bet is free floating does more for minimizing impact shift than stress relieving. And yes I do shoot Faxon pencil profile bbls, and no I'm not going to put on old style hand guards to prove it.
*The story you are about to hear is true; the barrels have not been changed to protect the impact shift* This is the desert, Arizona, I work here. I'm a shooter. It was July, it was hot, and we were working out of my VW. My partner's Ian McCollum, my name is Kasard. We were out here following up a lead on some gearheads who were peddling fancy new AR parts. On our way back, we stopped at a local dive for a cheap knockoff Big Gulp and some mutton. The painted broad behind the counter looked us up and down, winked, and asked if our rifles held zero. "Just the faxon, ma'am!"
I have a 16” faxon pencil barrel and it also shoots tighter with a little bit of heat in it. I thought it was weird, but now I’m curious if this is a trend.
I dunno. We had a Type 99 Arisaka out and the youngsters were really running some rounds through it. It was really hot and the groups got a LOT tighter. It has a chrome bore like an M16A-1
How can we be sure the effect we see is not caused by the lack of free-float tube on the SP1? It seems that the pressure of the handguard the barrel could change substantially as heat rises, potentially leading to POI-shift/stringing just like what we see here.
Very curious as to what those large booms off in the distance were when they were talking about the sp1 poi shift. All I could guess was tannerite or something similar
What's the weight difference between the 14.5 and 20 inch barrel? I'd rather save weight by going to a shorter barrel than a skinnier one. You lose velocity but get a big advantage when doing urban or mounted ops or when running a can. Plus m855a1 and mk318 largely negates the velocity loss with bullet mass. Of course, out in the desert where you guys are I'd take velocity. Great work.
Vince Cirivello Internet lore says that they are 1-1.25 MOA barrels. I don't own one myself, so I can't answer with much confidence. Maybe some owners of it could give you a better answer.
I'd say the 1-1.25 MOA is pretty close. I prefer the Gunner profile myself but both the Pencil & Gunner profiles get many sub MOA groups from people. I think 1.25 MOA or less is the standard with match ammo. Good enough for anybody that isn't looking to do benchrest match shoots. I will never own another heavier profile barrel for the AR again unless it is to build clones like for the A2 etc.
I noticed 2 things and not sure if they matter enough to make a difference: 1) Karl’s string of fire for 30 rounds was much faster than Ian’s 2) after 30 round mag dump, Ian took 15 seconds to reload and shoot first shot, while Karl took 10 seconds. This should mean Karl’s barrel was hotter than Ian’s? Does this make a significant difference?
simple rule: you see an ar 15 with a triangular handguard and 20 round mag, you put a like
Seeing a lot of cacti in your videos. Are you shilling for big cactus?
+Daniel Taylor No, they are actively working against our interests. ~K
I agree, it seems like you have way too many cacti in your videos, and I don't really support channels that accommodate to the likes of the prickly pears.
@@garykozdrajr.3689 Cacti are people too you know. They can't help that their schools are underfunded and that the ground water has lead in it.
"We've been messin' with a lot of stuff."
What else are two guys with guns in the desert be doing other than messing stuff?
Another informative and entertaining video! Thank you, guys!! Well done!
From now on all my fliers will be named "Karl".
*sneezes while squeezing trigger* Dammit Karl!
grunt167 Damn it Karl!
"The flayer that was me, Karl" A memoire.
THANK YOU...
For some reason i found something off with this video..
Then I noticed 50% of Ian's clothes isn't military surplus
That's not good. ~Karl
Oh hey, a new InRange video in which opinions are backed up with evidence.
Can't wait to see people complaining on /k/ later.
Love these science-y videos. Its so satisfying to see actual data rather than just chatting the way most other channels do.
I'm fairly certain you would see more shift than that with the SP1 if you used a optical sight. Since the front sight is mounted to the barrel it moves with the barrel and compensates. I shot a stock SP1 in early 3 gun and had to deal with this.
That is actually a really interesting point. I would like to see them do a video where they mount somthing to the carry handle to test this theory, maybe then using irons could be useful (assuming you don't have a free float with irons mounted to the handguard, but that would do the same thing as the optic then) if you knew your barrel would do that.
Do you think the non free floating hand guard exacerbates the shifting problem?
Valid point sir. I like your thinking.
Very smart. 2 thumbs up.
Very similar to my results. Mine has a distinct shift from COLD to anything else, but the difference once it's not stone cold and pretty hot is minimal. From (literally) ice cold to round 5 usually shows a nearly straight line downward, with four and five usually stable. From that point you can get pretty darn hot without any significant additional shift. This was an awesome project, guys. Congrats on getting it turned into a commercially available project. I made my own but you guys get full credit for convincing me to try it out.
Do pencil barrels shoot lead?
Bad Cornflakes ツ yes... barrel profile doesnt affect the ability to shoot lead... rifling does... but at normal 556 velocities... lead projectiles with no jacket isnt a good idea
Really old pencil barrels shoot lead, the modern ones shoot graphite.
I see what you did there...
Clever, lol I see what you did, very clever
Cheers
LOL
I used a 16" Faxon Gunner barrel instead of the 16" Pencil barrel.
The Gunner barrel only weights 2.7 ounces more than the Pencil barrel.
I feel that that slightly thicker barrel between the chamber and the gas port will keep barrel whip to a minimum when choosing a lightweight profile barrel.
@@randymagnum143 You know what they say, ounces make pounds. You go for slightly heavier options despite the lighter options working fine a few times you'll easily be a pound or two heavier.
@@randymagnum143 Yeah I tried to do LW build as well . I didn't use pencil barrel .Not a fan of pencil barrels . I got BCM URG MID 14.5" E.L.W. Fluted BFH with MCMR13 , Pinned YHM QD Flash Hider & YHM TURBO K Suppressor. For the Lower I went with LWRCI IC Full Ambi Controls Lower with CMC 3.5 Flat Single Stage Trigger. I put M.I. CRS Folding BUIS , Trijicon TR24 with Aero LW Scope mount & Inforce WML Gen 2.
With fully loaded mag and all the mods it's 8.2 pounds . Sure if I got rid of the LPVO , and Suppressor it woukd be under 7 pounds . For modern fighting rifle / carbine . I think suppressor is must and LPVO makes perfect sense on 14.5".
I have had excellent luck with the faxon pencil barrels on builds. Thanks for sharing !
No, thank you!
I'm going to have to test this with my Troy pencil barrel and see what happens. That would be very valuable information to have. Thanks for all the great work, guys!
We'd like to know. Let us know, we've only worked with these so far. ~Karl
any updates?
So how'd it go?
The cactus at 4:25 on the right looks really like a man in a ghillie suit...
Shhhh! we refer to them as our Personalized Reconnaissance in Conditions Known units... Still working on the acronym.
Grey ParadEYEgm I have a great idea...
It's the Finns!
That's just what that cactus wanted you to think
@@DonHaussettler love the acronym
Do you guys really have so many problems with being accused of being shills? I mean, extensive testing like the sort you're doing on these WWSD guns will eventually lead to you finding parts you just *really like*, and want to share with the class. Isn't that sort of the point? I'm confused as to why people would keep ragging on you for shilling; the only thing I can think of is folks who're pissed that you're not 'shilling' for *their* favorite stuff, which makes no damn sense at all.
Either way. Would've liked to see some more intense heat/stress testing, was hoping for some sort of 500-round Gun Murder to put these things to the REAL test, but even this was still informative. Will be a useful video when I argue with my buddies next time about pencil barrels! Thanks guys, keep it up.
Yes, and we've already been accused of it in these comments within an hour of this video going live. If you actually find a good product and say it, you're a shill. If you denigrate a bad product that people like, you're an idiot know nothing. That's how the internet works. ~Karl
Ahhhh, the Internet. Bringing out the trolls since Al Gore invented it!
Ah well. I don't actually own an AR15 yet and am keeping careful track of these WWSD videos for when I manage to scrape up the funds to build one. You guys've swiftly become one of my primary sources for knowledge, given the utter vacuum of training or shooting around where I live. Didn't grow up shooting, trying to teach myself to do so without any real assistance is something of a bear. Videos like the ones you guys do help shave the bear somewhat.
So don't sweat it too hard. There are definitely fans out there who can see that you're simply showing your work and trying to help out. To Gehenna with the loudmouths.
I think it's mostly retards on /k/ who likely don't even own a single gun anyway.
Unfortunately, various communities on RUclips have lots of problems with sponsored content not being disclosed, even though it's actually against the law not to disclose it. It sucks for honest content creators because it's not uncommon.
Yeah - except it's usually pretty clear when someone is trying to skate by on sketchy tests as opposed to doing actual work. These guys make an explicit point of *not* fishing for YT advertising funding - they're funded directly by people who like their stuff. Why risk pissing those guys off and losing your livelihood with undisclosed sponsorships?
It just strikes me as bizarre. If you're not going to believe a word Ian and Karl say about anything they do...why're you tracking the channel? Blagh. Anyways! Yeah, I see the point about ammo expenditures. The testing is certainly still valid, and did indeed sell my buddies on modern pencil barrels. So that works out fine, especially since Faxon seems to have established some nice price points for their barrels. Definitely something to keep in mind when it's time to stop buying stuff for the Storm or the godforsaken SU and see about an AR.
Great test! And impressive shooting by Karl. The faxon shifting up may not even be barrel deflection but a function of the ammo performance ... as you would expect a shift up with a hot chamber = hotter ammo temperature before firing = higher muzzle velocity.
That SP1 is gorgeous. Love those triangle handguards, fixed stock and fixed carry handle.
I remember when the barrel straightness gauge was added to the M16/M16A-1 gauge set. A lot of those bent barrel problems went away when the three prong flash suppressor was deleted. There was a habit of using the three prong suppressor to break the banding on C-RAT pallets. Somebody once told me that at the factory they used a projected light through the barrel to check them and a rod in the end to bend them straight. Don't know how true that is.
That's a shocking amount of poi shift from the sp1, good test and great information! I want to try the same test on my FN A4 style upper vs other carbines.
man, you can really hear that flash suppressor on the 14.5" sing...kinda neat!
It's great to see you guys doing this type of testing, I bought a 14.5 Faxon barrel based on your videos and I'm happy with it so far!
We're honored. Thank you!
Faxon Firearms You're welcome :). Are you guys sponsoring InRange now?
No. We support them and as they disclosed - we sent the barrels without charge, but provide no support otherwise.
I was looking to buy a Faxon 18" barrel for my current build and was looking for a video just like this to validate going with a light barrel. Thanks guys.
Good job guys. This is stuff only found in blogs. No other channels are doing tests like these that I know of.
+chzzyg269 Thanks!
Probably the best gun content on the internet. You guys always impress.
Thanks guys. These videos are a wealth of information. It's obvious that you are doing your best to be objective. This is good stuff.
That roughly 1" of rise in the second group on the Faxon barrel can be expected, with a hot chamber cooking the gun powder it gives you a hair more velocity causing a vertical POI shift.
I am a thin woman. Weight has always been an issue for me and I have always favored pencil barrels. Yes, older pencil barrels do tend to string out when they heat up but I haven't really found that to be an issue for several years now.
I was in college from 88-98 and couldn't afford to shoot in that time period. I bought a couple of rifles after I started working in 99 and most of the pencil barrel issues I had seen in older guns seemed to have been resolved.
They do heat up faster and groups do open up a bit but not enough to really gripe about.
The old days of getting hot and shooting 2 feet to the left seem to be gone.
Even when cold, newer pencil barrels seem to be more accurate than they were 30+years ago.
You guys sold me, I'm not buying anything but Faxon barrels from now on. Thanks Guys!!
So conclusion Faxon makes some good barrels for a good price.
We agree!
FYI, it's not shilling when you toot your own horn. :)
In my experience, pencil barrels are better than they were 20 or 30 years ago. I got a DD pencil barrel a while ago & I got an FN pencil barrel through PSA. They are both great. Point of impact doesn't change drastically until you get them up to temps I would consider abusive.
I agree, the modern manufacturing has improved the quality overall, across most manufactures. No doubt, some are still better than others but, I think, the average quality of guns/parts has come up quite a bit over the last few decades.
Excellent content, guys. I love the objectivity of this channel. I'm always happy to see what you guys have to offer to learn.
the new Olympic event: dirt shooting
hellhalif ... final event, who can blow their load the fastest.
Special class like top fuel dragsters, with people tuning miniguns and building electronic triggers etc. Hell, I'd watch it.
"And in the finals, *once again,* it's Jerry Miculek and Bob Munden."
How's Bob still supposed to compete while he's dead?
Cowboys never die that's how
I read someplace once that when the SAS wanted to adopt the CAR 15 ( the ones made by diemaco ) they requested a 15.7 inch heavy barrel for better accuracy and heat reduction, larry vickers said from his experience that pencil barrels work great but if its up to me i'd rather have a slightly heavier but more capable rifle
Interesting results. I do feel confident about thinner profile barrels nowadays although imo the Gunner profile barrel types seem ideal because the profile tapers and the thickest part of the barrel is behind the gas block which is important as most of the heat builds up back there if extended fire is concerned.
That is a common thought across many of our customers - and part of the reason we designed the Gunner profile!
From what I've seen out of the 16in pencil barrel, you're pretty much on the mark with your process. Good Job. The only question remaining is will any carbon fiber handguard blems come up for sale and where could a fella sign up for that?
Nice video. Concise, informative and practical. Well done.
Thank you! ~Karl
Pencil barrel?
(Feels insecure about himself)
a properly stress relieved pencil barrel.
Mine doesn't curve, but it does slightly lean right when it gets really hot.
i think it's something to do with friction.
friction , heat , stress, these all need to be released to avoid "a barrel rupture" , so i advise you make sure you manually relive any stress as soon as you can
I have a shorter barrel, but bigger bore. .300 BLK of course. What did you think I was talking about?
This is about AR15's, not Pump Action's...
11:00 what about Dixie trash services? Huh? Huh? :-P
Great report guys! Stoner was our ages JMB and we were blessed to have him.......and lucky too!
Also a very good demo of how much an A2 hider kicks up less dust than the A1 and 3 prong FH.
Videos like this is why i keep changing my mind on my shtf build 😅
Fair and good test, thumbs up.
Great video since my new build is using the Faxon pencil barrel (16" with intergrated brake)
Great video! It'd also be interesting to see a comparison between the Faxon pencil and a standard A2 profile barrel instead of just a SP1 pencil.
Should be no need to do disclaimer that your not sponsored!!!! I think fans of this channel already know the two of you are some of the most credible on Facebook.
THANKS GUYS. I HAVE AN SP-1 AND WILL HAVE TO TRY THIS TEST WHEN I GO TO THE RANGE NEXT TIME.
Great test guys. Good to know that companies have figured out stress relief. It might have been interesting to do 2 mag dumps, or a total of 40-50 rounds maybe, to see if that had any extra effect. But of course, ammo costs add up. This shows the point quite well. Thanks for the work you do
Thank you!
is one mag dump enough? For the SP101 it obviously is. I feel like however that if a company makes such claims it should be really stress tested. I also think comparing it to another modern pencil barrel manufacturer would be interesting. Great video though.
it would also be interesting to test if the zero shift is increasing relative to the ammount of rounds fired.
ex with the modern barrels 1 mag dump = 1inch shift, 3 mag dumps = 3 inch shift or if it simply matters weather the barrel is hot or not. if it got progressively worse it could be quite problematic for a military aplication.
I'd imagine when the barrel has a glow to it that would effect the zero quite a bit, and also ruin the barrel. Other than that, at temperatures you'd care to heat a barrel up to, it shouldn't make too much of a difference. Hot is hot, until you start making it soft.
it would have been interesting to see the difference between every mag dump, dump a mag, test 5 rounds, dump a mag, test 5 rounds, dump a mag, test 5 rounds
dalem04 well, getting a barrel hot is important. The idea of the project is to create a firearm stoner would make in the modern day and they often compare them to what someone might use in the military and in the military you easily put several mags through a gun in a few minutes.
the procedure the german army came up with as a worst case scenario and tested the g36 against was
10round group
20 round mag dump
reload
30 round mag dump
reload
10 round group
20 rounds in 1 min
reload
10 round group
20 rounds in 5 min
reload 20 rounds in 5 min
10 round group
i dont think you will ever actually test this full scenario but it would be interesting for comparison
Would be interesting to see a sequence of two strings of three 9-hole groups. Seeing what the deflection would be over three consecutive groups may be more indicative of the degree by which your rounds will shift.
Thanks guys.
Well done and very relevant guys
Thank you.
Outstanding fellas, extremely informative video
you guys should show the barrel flex from prone supported non-free float vs free float. its amazing how much it moves even with the heavier a2 barrel.
You guys are such shills! All I ever see you all use are sharpies when marking targets, phhhttt..... you must be paid by them.
Lol. Still, can't avoid watching your videos, they're great.
darink300zx "Sharpie shillzz"
darink300zx bravely exposing that Sharpie illuminati.
With Ian being such an avowed Francophile, I'm surprised they're not using BiC markers.
Big Marker is lobbying our politicians and ruining this country!
They are paid by Sharpie plus get their Sharpies for free LOL
Awesome content guys.
Does having a conventionally stocked non freefloat handguard AR and free floated handguard a variable here? How would a non stress relieved pencil barrel with a FF perform?
I've been saying this for a while. I have a Daniel defense V9LW with a pencil barrel and I haven't had POI shifts after dumping mags either. given that I think it's crazy not to get a pencil barrel if you plant to hump it very far
Damn that Faxon flash hider really kicks up the dirt.
Great video. Great subject.
Please do a pencil 14.5" vs M4 profile heat shift test, and an A1 barrel vs A2/4 barrel heat shift.
Cool test
Karl's auto fingers are impressive and the aiming isn't bad either!
awesome! thanks
An interesting follow up would be to remove the SP1 barrel, send it off for stress relief, shoot some new groups, and see how much difference it made on a used, already machined barrel.
Funny how when I first got into AR's I never really gave a flying fig for the old original configuration. But the longer I'm shooting one, and the more I learn, the more I'm intrigued by the "roots". :-)
You missed a variable, it looks to me that the SP1 does not have a free floated barrel. I would be curious if swaping in a set of free float hand gaurds would make a difference.
Cool. Thanks a lot. Great science!!!!!
Well done.
Is it possible to see what a larger profile, or composite barrel might do in comparison? I've seen some ceramics that are supposed to be ultra light but very rigid, and a thicker barrel, while certainly heavier, seems a pretty proven concept
Good stuff--I was waiting for the SP1 comparison, which was needed to draw the conclusion. You likely already know this, but OnTarget has a software product that calculates mean point of impact for groups on any target, as long as you can put the target into a scanner. Of course, you'd have to either lug a scanner into the desert or cut back to your den to show the results.
For a military rifle a heavy barrel end to end has an important advantage when using bayonets. The cut outs under the handguards of the government A2 is because of the M203, they should have increased the diameter of the clamps rather than machined away the metal from the barrel.
I'm building a second upper for my ultra light V Seven shtf build just for fun to see how much lighter I can make it after my SBR approval comes back and my EA ARX gets out of jail and I kept debating going pencil barrel but I was worried about this POI shift so bad and I couldn't hit the weight goal I had.
Now I'm beyond thrilled to have faith that it will still be as accurate as I wanted while hitting my ridiculous weight goal.
This SBR will be a direct threaded 14.5 pencil barrel rifle that will weigh 4.8 pounds WITH optic, suppressor, and a full 30 round magazine.
No polymer or magnesium receiver parts either.
The normal shtf setup at 16" currently weighs 6lbs loaded (with suppressor factored in even though I don't have it yet)
I had a 1910 vintage Mannlicher Schoenauer 6.5 x 54mm factory sporting rifle. It had the short front end and a 25" pencil barrel. You only got 2 or maybe three at a pinch, shots on a 4" target at 200 yds and the next shots would be outside of the required 4" group (standard accuracy demanded for deer stalking in the UK) due to barrel warp. This was particularly noticeable with the standard 160 grain round nose ammunition (2100 fps). If I used 120grain spitzer bullets (2550 fps), which spent less time in the barrel, I could get 4 or maybe 5 shots on target.
Thanks...
Great Stuff..... Thank You!!!
i'd like to see this test done with mini 14's like an old 90's one and a new one to see if their pencil barrels are really as bad as the internet says they are, and if they are, how much the changes ruger did later help.
FatGuyWithAKatana Those videos are out there. Various results. Some poor, some decent.
These are also on free float hand guards.
Would there have been any merit to using your 60 round drums for the dump? More rounds equals more heat? Or would the difference have been negligible.
Andrew D probably used 30s to ground the test in a bit of reality. Most GIs had 20s or 30s, and most civillians would have 30s also
Stellar Steel They have sixty round drums.
It's just drum, dump it, reload and shoot your five group.
The difference in barrel heat between the two isn't that much, 30 is more than enough for proof of concept.
@Eye Ore those are called communist states.
The shift on the SP1 is more like 6 inches not 4 1/2 inches. Just count the number of squares from the X on the first group to the X on the second group. You have a built in scale on the target itself.
Very useful -- no wonder Faxon is mostly sold out of most barrels, most of the time.
Very interesting. I have a question based on that comment about the barrel whip with the different barrel lengths. You guys mentioned that the 14.5 should theoretically be more accurate since it will whip less than the 16, and the test appears to show that. That being said, would that make 14.5 more appropriate for a general purpose/combat lightweight carbine, since you'd expect to use multiple magazines in a firefight?
Better and better
I'd be curious to see the sp1 test repeated with a free float handguard
3:36 that thunder
My bet is free floating does more for minimizing impact shift than stress relieving.
And yes I do shoot Faxon pencil profile bbls, and no I'm not going to put on old style hand guards to prove it.
*The story you are about to hear is true; the barrels have not been changed to protect the impact shift*
This is the desert, Arizona, I work here. I'm a shooter. It was July, it was hot, and we were working out of my VW. My partner's Ian McCollum, my name is Kasard. We were out here following up a lead on some gearheads who were peddling fancy new AR parts. On our way back, we stopped at a local dive for a cheap knockoff Big Gulp and some mutton. The painted broad behind the counter looked us up and down, winked, and asked if our rifles held zero.
"Just the faxon, ma'am!"
John Capozzi duuun da dun dun, duuun da dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuun!
I have a 16” faxon pencil barrel and it also shoots tighter with a little bit of heat in it. I thought it was weird, but now I’m curious if this is a trend.
I dunno. We had a Type 99 Arisaka out and the youngsters were really running some rounds through it. It was really hot and the groups got a LOT tighter. It has a chrome bore like an M16A-1
2:20 Dat tuning fork flash hider tho.
Very interesting, thanks! I do have one modern "pencil" barrel it it shoots well.
That's amazing! !
ty
How can we be sure the effect we see is not caused by the lack of free-float tube on the SP1? It seems that the pressure of the handguard the barrel could change substantially as heat rises, potentially leading to POI-shift/stringing just like what we see here.
Very curious as to what those large booms off in the distance were when they were talking about the sp1 poi shift. All I could guess was tannerite or something similar
I love your guys' channel, keep up the good work!
What's the weight difference between the 14.5 and 20 inch barrel? I'd rather save weight by going to a shorter barrel than a skinnier one. You lose velocity but get a big advantage when doing urban or mounted ops or when running a can. Plus m855a1 and mk318 largely negates the velocity loss with bullet mass. Of course, out in the desert where you guys are I'd take velocity. Great work.
I enjoyed the proper mag dumps
So 50 years latter things have improved, that's progress.
What is the accuracy of those barrels with not craptastic ammo?
Vince Cirivello Internet lore says that they are 1-1.25 MOA barrels. I don't own one myself, so I can't answer with much confidence. Maybe some owners of it could give you a better answer.
Vince Cirivello Eventually your heartbeat messes it up.
I'd say the 1-1.25 MOA is pretty close. I prefer the Gunner profile myself but both the Pencil & Gunner profiles get many sub MOA groups from people. I think 1.25 MOA or less is the standard with match ammo. Good enough for anybody that isn't looking to do benchrest match shoots. I will never own another heavier profile barrel for the AR again unless it is to build clones like for the A2 etc.
Eye Ore 1moa. National match targets are always one Moa per ring/x zone.
SCIENCE! love seeing the SP1 out there, since I own one...
I noticed 2 things and not sure if they matter enough to make a difference:
1) Karl’s string of fire for 30 rounds was much faster than Ian’s
2) after 30 round mag dump, Ian took 15 seconds to reload and shoot first shot, while Karl took 10 seconds. This should mean Karl’s barrel was hotter than Ian’s? Does this make a significant difference?
Was this only with early sp1s/M16A1s? Did the 70s/80s production pencil barrels get this issue fixed?