Nope not at all. Overkill in audio just means headroom or lack of distortion if proper gear. Less distortion, higher efficiency, and proper gear equals better everything lol
I’m 62 years old, just bought my first set of hearing aids, yes... there is such a thing as overkill once you get to a certain point you pay a whole lotta money for just a little bit, how ever there is a lotta people out there that go the underkill road.... and that really sucks, your right plenty of power is always better, comfortable volume is best, bragging rights..... well that’s stupid!
This video is a gem. Came right on time for me as I was asking myself the same question about my future plans upgrading my HT. I’m a fan of you and your videos. You are doing good presentations and provide very helpful knowledge. Thank you for sharing!
Man..this was such a great video. I kinda knew some of this already.. but the way you talked about multiple subs lowering the workload of one to pressurize the room.. that really made good sense.
I agree!! Mine in THX certified and it’s the Perfect set up according to Lucas Film and they are the God fathers of how sound should sound and I have been to their studios and I have NEVER heard anything like it that comes close!! And I have installed theater Gear worth over a hundred thousand dollars... so I can confidently say..There is Term that does matter like YouthMan says.😁
I honestly feel it's impossible to have "too much" subwoofer in a room. If I could afford to have 5 32" subs (they're about 3 grand each) instead of the 5 18s I have currently and 6 24" subs (they're about 2 grand each) instead of the 6 15s, I'd do that. Just gain match, time align, set your levels, send it! It's all about HEAD . . to the ROOM!
Can't agree more. My 0.02 $ is that you need an amp that can do 2x the power of what your speakers are rated, not PEAK power, but the nominal power. If you have more, then that's even better. Would you rather drive a car with a top speed of 170km/h at 160km/h or a car with top speed of 250km/h at 160km/h ? Also remember that the less the cone is moving the cleaner the sound, the lesser of distortion. So having 4 - 8 or more subwoofers will make the bass more clean, and you would be able to reach lower digits hz, even single digit hz.(if sealed, vented can't produce under port tuning).
Amp/speaker matching can be tricky sometimes, but having way more amp power to speakers can be dangerous. I agree you do need a bit more (25-30% is my general rule) but 2x rms is overkill and just asking for blown speakers.
@@Youthman Yes, and I agree, but that's not a good example. In your case, the speakers may be underrated. Try 2000 watts to a 1000 watt speaker and see what happens. All I was saying is twice the power is not always a good rule to follow. Also you can't always follow receiver wattage specs. 100 watts from a receiver is not always equal to 100 watts from a power amplifier for example. When you push your system, most likely your speakers are seeing a bit lower than that rated receiver power depending on the company.
Common sense has to be used as well. I would have zero issues running a 2000 watt amp with speakers that are rated at 1000 watts. It would be dumb for anyone to turn it wide open. But then again, running a lower wattage wife open is just as dangerous due to distortion and clipping.
I know what you mean about subs needing to pressurized the room. Best thing I ever did during construction is I used tuck tape and acoustic sealant on ever electrical box, over every staple I used for the poly, on every stud, every base and head board so it was completely air tight. I also got sealed plugs to go in every air vent and I used sealed exterior doors to prevent air loss. This was mostly done for addition al sound proofing (plus alot more) but I noticed a significant improvement to my sub response and believe that has to do with a sealed room. It sounded like I doubled my subs and took me days to fix all the rattled.
I think it was Tom Danley (used to work with Jeff P way back in the day) who said that drivers and loundspeakers start getting into non-linearity/distortion at 10% of rated power. Great video! keep it up, and see if you can get a Danley TH-50 in for review. I'd be curious to know how it compares to your current set up
Not even someone being killed by their own system ("Death by Stereo", Lost Boys, 1987) would be considered overkill. Spend any time on forums/youtube and you'll soon realize (not that you don't already) that in this industry, more is never enough. Also, save yourself some money and stay away from forums/youtube.
That Yamaha only plays down to 32Hz. It’s designed for venues where they play music that doesn’t have low frequencies. I’ll stick with my JTR Captivator RS2’s that play flat down to 5Hz.
I agree with you. I even run 2,000 watts to 12 inch subwoofers in my truck but they're dialed in. I also wanted to say thank you very much for sharing the difference in subwoofer because I am looking for new ones.
Thank you for raising and discussing these points. As someone relatively new to the hobby, this dispels a lot of misconceptions I have--making it clearer for me to select which hardware to acquire.
You illustrated that a single subwoofer may struggle to pressurize your room. Where as, more of them working together can share the load and makes it that they all work less for a cleaner sound and maintain health of the equipment! That just makes so much sense. I experienced that with a Polk + Marantz SR8001 set up I had. I had four speakers (no subwoofer) and I noticed how just two of them on would struggle but when I turned all four on, the sound especially at louder volumes seemed to make my walls disappear. I also noticed that when all four speakers were on, the excursion of all the woofers was less but the sound was more and I was able to turn the amp up higher without distortion. I love how scientific this stuff is. Yeah I'm a nerd! Beautiful explanation though!
What needs to be considered is voltage drop from the power line and the efficiency of the amplifier. If you go all in then you need dedicated lines and if you choose certain amps you can pump 220/240 volts which passes considerably more power to the device. If your amp is designed to run Class 'A', you will need to compensate for the lack of efficiency (usually 75% of the power is turned to heat). If you move up the ladder to newer designs, such as Class 'D', efficiency can exceed 90%. With the Class 'D' you can get more power delivered to your speakers with less waste heat (think ventilation issues, ease of placement), weight and a SMALLER power line. The better power amp modules are sonically indistinguishable from the better traditional designs. So it's not just the speakers which create choke-points for reproduction volumes. You want to get nuts, get a highly efficient amp, speakers and a power line with no other draws than the amp. With a good Class 'D' receiver you should be able to avoid the need of an off board amp. Even if you are venturing into crazy loud then consider the same design as IMPORTANT in an outboard amp. One other added benefit of coll running amplifier, they should last longer. Heat is one of the destructive forces working on your electronics. It's also eco-friendly. Especially when you are running your A/C to go Class 'D'.
Dennis Bohner that is why I have a small breaker box at the meter base. I ran all 10 gauge wire as a dedicated circuit for my home theater, actually three runs. One for my electronics that my monster cable power distribution box is plugged into. Another one for my main amps. The last one for my subwoofer duty using QSC RMX pro audio amplification. Now I’m satisfied that everything is truly getting full power.
18:45 I think it's more than it's overpowering itself than other speakers, it's the overtones that would be the sounds you'd be able to locate from a sub.
It’s a $$$ spent for value consideration. Sure, on an unlimited budget, more is better, but that is rarely a reality in a low or mid level HT build. Amplification power and speaker efficiency is key, balanced with $$$ invested is highly important.
I've got overkill in an efficiency apartment? I've got eight 15" band speakers with horns wired in series parallel with a 1,000 watt Allen Heath powered mixer, and a 3 way 540 watt studio monitor system. They blend phenomenal, i like that old school new school approach.
When I built by home theater room 15 years ago, I found a very detailed formula that was used to fi s out the optimum and maximum amp watch to a particular speaker. It used sensitivity, max speaker capability, cable length, room volume and total number of speakers ( I may have missed on or added one, it was a long time ago) you plugged those numbers into 2 different formulas, 1 gives you minimum per channel and the other gave you maximum. I believe max was based on +10 or basically a level you would never listen to. This helped you get the beat performance without hurting your speakers. I bought just above the max and my AVR does not over work or get too hot. I just wish I could find it again. I tho k it was in a really old Sound and Vision Magazine
I've told my wife I am looking to get a second subwoofer for my theater, which of course she thinks I don't need. Every time we watch a movie I ask her "did you like that?" She says yes of course. So I tell her that everything I've purchased for the home theater I bought for her enjoyment, I'm not being selfish. That seems to work. .....looks like I'll be getting that second sub fairly soon.
Total agreement Sir. Overdriving and distortion lead to speaker distruction. Of course, one could also go "stupid" and run way too much power into a given speaker.
Yes you still have to use common sense. If you have a 200 watt rms speaker and feed it 1000 watts and try and turn it wide open, you are asking for trouble
IMAX audio engineers speak of head room in a RUclips video discussing there speakers and amp. They use a a really great example with driving a car either flooring it all the time or having enough power in the engine to go faster when needed. Thanks for your videos youthman always learning from you.
Also, the more subwoofers, the more even the bass is thruout the room (less room modes), so as you said, you don't end up over driving them to fill out the lulls or holes in areas that may not be getting enough bass (even thou other area's may be getting too much . You've talked about room modes in other videos but I don't think you mentioned them here when you were commenting about adding 2 or three more subs ;-)
I got rid of my centre speaker a couple of years ago. It sounded okay, but I sit within 3 meters of my TV and the voices of actors lost realism. The audio seemed unconnected to the cast, when one actor was on the left of screen having a conversation with someone right of screen, yet both voices eminated from the centre. I am much happier now, especially when just watching a stereo TV programme. I don't have a sub either, because I kept forgetting to switch it off and my mains have enough bass for me. So for me a sub and a center speakers are overkill for me, once I am fully engaged with what is being screened I am not really concentrating too much on the audio. It's totally different when I listen to my two channel hifi system, no subs there either though.
Hmm that's a bit of a personal choice. I played live music for years and had different rigs for different venues. So really it depends on your space and room dynamics.
Port chuffing is something I wasn’t familiar with but I had an experience with my sub that it made a “fluttery” sound and I had no idea what it was. So I looked up what it was after you said that phrase and sure enough that was the problem. Thanks for the knowledge!
Just became a patreon 120db crew, well done videos, also just finished my home theatre with a Marantz AVR with 5 channel amp with the help of your videos, made the decision a no brainer. Made my home theater come to life! Thanks for all you do Michael!
I'd say that overkill should be seen as balancing gain and budget. For example, if you have amplification that lets you play at your desired listening level without any distortion or other negative effects it will be overkill to increase amp power (since you already have the headroom you need, and amplifier quality is something different) if that means that you can't spend as much on something else, like room treatment which often is something that is very neglected relative to the effort put into the audio system. When money isn't a factor then I agree that there is no problem with overkill.
I definitely think there's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to spending money on components. But overkill is subjective. I think there are always products and people that will push the limits of what can be done at home. I personally don't believe there is overkill if you are working within your budget and the space is an enjoyable experience
Grait video man. Realy like your videos and Content, keep up the good work!! 👌 I actualy started building my very first Home theater just 3 days ago, and man i am learning much from your videos. Thanks!!! 😎👍
I upgraded my TV to a 70" 4K last year. In July, on my birthday; I'm getting a 4K blu-ray player and a 4K 9.2 channel receiver for myself. I'm very excited! Been watching 1080p blurays with 7.1/5.1 surround. I have a full 7.2.2 setup, just no way to fully utilize all the speakers I installed myself. Dolby Atmos is going to be so great!!
Just so you know! passive radiators work with resonance. When the woofer is moving in, the passive radiator is also moving in and when the woofer is moving out, the passive radiator is also moving out, in phase with the woofer, helping it compress and decompress the environment. Imaging a slinky hanging off your hand in resonance, as you you push in, the slinky is also pushing in and as you pull, the slinky is also pulling. If the passive radiator would move out when the woofer is moving in and vice versa, the sound of the woofer and passive radiator would cancel out.
Your are welcome!!! Mechanical Engineering!!! LOL!!!! Hope the explanation was clear enough! Thank you very much for the entertainment teammate! I enjoy your videos very much!!!!
There is a lot of technical knowledge I do not know but I love learning from others. In the end we learn from each other. I certainly do not have it all figured out
@@Youthman Teammate you do a fantastic job and I appreciate your videos! The passive radiator movement is extremely counter intuitive and beyond the scope of the excellent reviews that you do!
Great video I’m just starting to dive into the hobby. I had been wondering about this exact topic for a little while now. Thanks for all the info keep up the great work.
Many good points! Don't underpower you LCRs Clipping=no bueno (simply listening closely one can hear loudspeaker compression, if they're compressing, turn it down) Also remember; It takes 4x excursion to maintain level and drop one octave. So if your sub system can attain reference level in a bass managed 5.1 or 7.1 system (~125dB* or so) at 25hz** to hit achieve that at 12.5hz*** you need to quadruple your sub capability. *(for example worst case scenario, ie, full scale 0dB LFE, +7ch) **(quite difficult) ***(extremely difficult)
Great Video ! I fully agree with Youthman !! we must have enough headroom in both Amplifier and SW/Speakers to enjoy movies or music. I have a dual 12 inch Sunfire and Dennon 11.2 with Marantz 5 channel power Amp MM 7055 for earlevel speakers sounds great both at high and low volumes !!
Another thing to add you need dedicated 20 amp for a receiver or you won't get the power that the amp in that AVR has to offer, if you add an amp it is recommended to get more than a 20 amp outlet to power the amp
I have a very modest budget home cinema system , REL 400 sub ,Denon 2600 and four mission lx 2 speakers and a mission lx centre speaker , I have two monitor audio radius 45 for atmos. My room is only 12 foot square and it’s enough. But I love watching audiophile you tubers like this man.
For those asking why we need twice amplifier power just for 3db, 50dB is 10 times stronger than 40dB, at least based on measurement where 0 dB is a level that most, if not all humans, cannot hear. The thing that I am trying to say is that the dB scale, is logarithmic, not linear, altough we hear it quite linearly. And I think refrence level (80dB) is the level at which the average human can hear all fequencies from 20Hz to 20kHz well. And it is not exactly the amplifier that moves the driver but rather the magnet, which is powered by the amplifier. Anyway, great video Youthman, extremely informative.
Yes, definitely. This was touched on in your video regarding subwoofers, but having too large of speakers for a small space can present issues. You will introduce significant room gain in bass, if you're not able to pull them away from the walls/corners. This will result in requiring proper room treatment (which isn't cheap) and appropriate room correction to tame excessive bass frequencies, which can cause bloating and unevenness. So, yes, you can overpower your room with too much displacement. Every room is different, so you need to do the proper research.
Not to be that guy but a passive radiator is a tuning device, like a port. Claiming you have 8 15" drivers isn't any more accurate than counting your ports as subwoofers. Also passive radiators do NOT push pull as you describe around 14:30. When the active woofer goes out, so does the PR because the back pressure pushes it out.
I have a question for you Michael(@Youthman). Ever since you got your friend (who had that insane JTR Home Theatre, I can't remember his name) help you dial in your Captivators with your miniDSP, I had a question that has been bugging me. What if you used the miniDSP on the SVS PB16-Ultra's? Now of course you will get more output with the JTR's, but I remember you mentioning how much of a difference it made to your JTR's after properly dialing them in. To late to test now, but what if you dialed the PB16-Ultra's the same way. Would they of giving you enough response to satisfy your ears per say? I know what you mean by having overkill is good with headroom but with properly dialed in equipment would there truely be a need to go with excessive equipment. The Captivators are 2.67 times more powerful rms over the pb16-ultra so roughly speaking 3-4 db more output in theory. Just a thought that's all. I'm becoming more of a Rythmik fan these day, never ever owned an svs. Budgets dont allow for any upgrades right now lol. Can only window shop and research. Happy Easter and have a great day 😃
Great questions Edwin. The PB16’s have a limited 3 band PEQ (Parametric EQ, nor do they have a method of time aligning them (delay). The miniDSP offers soooo much more the. The DSP in the SVS subs. Port chuffing is a reality for most ported subs. You don’t get that with sealed subs. Lastly, the PB16’s go down to around -7Hz then drop very rapidly. The RS2’s are flat down to 10Hz in my room. In every way, the RS2’s are just next level.
@@Youthman ahhh yes, thanks for reminding me on the roll off. I had forgotten about that. That truely is a game changer! And port chuffing would definitely be an issue. I can see why the JTR's would be the favored sub!😀 On a side note, would you ever down the road consider reviewing any Rythmik subs. Would Love to hear your opinion on such subs. Especially from someone who truely knows quality bass. Keep these videos coming man, always look forward to your content!! 👍
Overkill ? Is it Overkill to have Bespoke Suits made if you can afford them No Is it Overkill to buy the very best Turntable one can attord,and to 2 haveothers in service for particular records No Is it overkill to polish your shoes every day No One of the most painful sounds is hearing an amplifier being driven to clipping. It is the equivalent of an aural overdraft a destructive and dreadful experience Clean power is the only power particularly for the reproduction of classical music In all things you should always have something in reserve Thankyou for another excellent video What you say is equally applicable to the reproduction of music. Orchestras are never conducted to clipping
19:53 . . . I like to equate it to cars (since I'm a car guy with an 'exotic'). Would you rather have to get up to highway speed (call it 75mph) with a 200hp 4 cylinder? Or would you rather have a 500hp 8 cylinder? That V8 is going to consume less fuel, generate less heat, work more efficiently and you're only going to have to BREATHE on the throttle for it to get up to 75. That 4 banger is going to put in the same effort, but it's going to be a LOT closer to it's MAX POWER (Initial D reference) to make that happen. That V8, you can start merging and if someone doesn't let you in, you just dust them.
Very well done video, I have tried explaining there is no such thing as overkill to people since 1978! Explaining distortion, clipping etc.... I'm going to point people to this video, thanks. The other thing I have to explain is phase, for some people some people can't tell when speakers are out of phase, back in the day it seemed most stereo stores had speakers hooked up this way, drove my ears insane.
The bigger the output of the amp theoretically the better for your speakers as they are not struggling to drive them and therefore can control them better however that does not always hold true you can get a higher quality amp with less wattage that will sound much better than a high output monster that isn't reproducing the sound properly so its a bit of a difficult question to answer properly generally you need to find an amp that matches well with the speakers you are using.
Unfortunately i don't agree with you in regards to subs the lower the frequency you reproduce in the system the slower the note is and unfortunately it has a side effect of masking the faster bass notes to the point you cannot hear the fast bass notes in some cases you will hear one massive bass note which you might think is fantastic until you realise there's supposed to be 3 notes played, so where i would call it overkill is where the bass is so powerful that it is actually detrimental to the sound of the system
I think the specific way there can be overkill is if the room is too small to absorb the energy waves that sub-woofers produce. In larger rooms, it would not be an issue but the energy waves produced in sub-woofers have to be reflected, and if the room is too small there would be extreme bounce back. But this video showcases the anxiety that audiophiles have. Audio quality , no matter how good it is, is never enough for them, and they will forever upgrade their equipment in the pursuit of perfection.
I thought my home system was okay, on the older side but worked. Then I got a new car and I heard things that I had never heard on my home system. I'm looking at upgrading (adding an amp and changing out center/mains) but have found a rabbit hole of information. Is there a good source that lays out the basics and terms? With searches I have done (like every topic now) there is a bunch of cross information; I don't know where to start.
Very thoughtful and thorough video. Learned a lot thank you. I hope listeners can distinguish between dialed in and overkill. Maybe a follow up vid on diff scenarios and how to calibrate overkill from just right (or under powered too). Well done. Mind you I guess a virtual reality headset and chair maybe just as effective in communicating the experience you are looking for too. Cheaper and easier to set up, lol. Just not social...
Wow! That is.... Wow! I like it. I understand it. I probably would do something similar to that if I had the opportunity. I wonder what it sounds like. I wonder how far can you hear that away from the house. I wonder if you can hear that from maybe a couple blocks away.
Love you sight!!! Avid viewers here! Sure do wish you would also review HOME THEATER SEATING...especially the BIG & TALL seats. Seems like nobody on RUclips does this. Keep up the great vids!!!
I have several home theater seating reviews on my channel. Look up Valencia Tuscany, Valencia Verona and Valencia Oxford on my channel. I have not reviewed any Big and Tall seats though.
YES!!! For one example... if you have small Jamo towers for fronts, but 6 18inch subs... thats overkill!!! At some point, every system will face diminishing returns...
The only overkill in a home theater I could think off is having a sound stage or space that's too large for a given room size, that's when you lose some small details in the soundfield, or the sound sometimes just doesn't seem right. Not because of overpower but coz of speaker or other component level and specs that require larger spaces to perform optimally.
Hey bro, love your videos. Always informative and well put together. Content is always great. Question... starting to upgrade my old 5.1 to a 7.2.2 or 7.2.4... started looking into LFR and think I like the R820f for left and right and r34c for center... whats your advice? I noticed in one of your videos u have a regular left or right as a center. Is that absolutely necessary?
An LCR configuration is three identical speakers. This will provide the best performance and an absolute seamless transition when sound pans from one speaker to the next. Is this absolutely necessary? No. It's just the best option.
I think what happens with some home theater enthusiasts is they desensitize themselves to bass to the point where they turn their home theater into a carnival ride (and ear destroyer) rather than a good sounding home theater. They put huge high output subwoofers in and run them extremely hot where it doesn't even sound good anymore. It just sounds like a kids car stereo. I mean lets say you want to run +4dB hot in the LFE, that's fun I get it, but these guys running like +10dB or even greater (like that dbox guy video you had) are just building amusement park gimmicks rather than reference home theaters imo. Now maybe that guy normally runs his system just a little hot in the LFE and that's cool. I mean as long as they are having fun but for the most part when I see the people with huge huge huge sub arrays the total package has been compromised by their setup. USUALLY! Sometimes they run just a little hot still but want the bass to just be super clean so they run tons of subs and then run them so they just coast / lower distortion.
@@Youthman How hot do you run your LFE channel over the mains? I know you want to upgrade your PB16s because of the chuffing, since your room is moderate in size maybe consider some large sealed subs. I know you have the hots for JTR but also PSA makes nice sealed stuff. You should look into their iPal stuff. Since you are friends with Jeff he'll probably give you a big discount though where the JTR will be a better value for you.
I’m not sure how hot we ended up running the subs but it’s blended very seamlessly with my system. I sold my PB16’s last week to upgrade to the RS2’s. PSA does make great subs. I reviewed the PSA S3611 awhile back.
@@Youthman I think you'll be a lot happier with that than the SVS (no bully against SVS). Vented subs are great in big rooms, but I think in your modestly sized one a sealed is the way to go. No more sneezing ports during those oddball scenes. In big rooms I think it is worth the chuffing for the extra output, but I think I'd go with a PSA vented over a SVS dollar for dollar. The JTRs have gotten expensive now, but I imagine you got a youtuber discount
Yes the PSA and JTR both make great subs that easily outperform SVS. I still really like SVS, the other two are just next level. If you look at SVS, they have gotten quite expensive over the years now that they are distributing through big box stores due to the additional markup needed to do so.
What movie has low frequency at 20 hz. or lower ? You must use frequency generator for such low bass that you love. I have six power sub woofers in my system, three of the power subs are used for the low frequency channel. I use full size JBL speakers for all channels.
Yep, the only overkill thing is too much sound pressure and cancellation from too much bass. I like a bassey system but I like it to be clean too. I had a not so great experience with a local movie theater. It's is a newer place but they use an ancient / improperly dialed surround setup (High's spike and too much midrange) and apparently a wall of subwoofers that flutter out the mid's and high's. It really felt like there were Buttkicker modules attached to the seating but nope, just regular flip down seats. Impressive bass just a bad application.
The term “overkill” is in my vocabulary but is limited by my budget! I appreciate all the components I’d like to have but know that some are simply not affordable for me! 👍😁
Wow this is HT 101, I wish I had had a video like this one to guide me into this crazy hobby when I first started back in the 90's... Some great info here for the rookie! Now as far as overkill is concerned, I've been at this game for many years and I have not gotten to that point...With my years of experience, I've improved the quality of my ht by buying better components, and bigger subs because when it comes to bottom end, bigger is better! By doing that, I have no problem pushing my ht to reference level with no strain! And that to me is Sonic Bliss!
Yeah bigger subs are better as long as they are good performing subs and you have the space available to accommodate them. And yep that's the key having the headroom to hit the home reference level if you choose to play at that level. But 8 or more massive subs playing hot way over the home reference level is overkill! It will give a inaccurate bass presentation plus damage your ears hearing in the mid to long term.
If you're hearing alot of port chuffing inside of your subwoofers frequency response then they are incorrectly placed. Perhaps you've never been able to get the results you desire because you've been putting your subwoofers where they look good instead of where they sound good. There's no replacement for displacement, but there is also no replacement for proper speaker placement.
Youthman, my room is 12’x24’ I’m planning on using two SVS 16” plus ported subs. Now will adding one or two more of those subs, will that allow me to get those real lows?
Wow not many ppl talk abt these things. I'm surprised that a subwoofer worth 3000$ too flap around when it's loud. I believed a svs 18" sub would just complete my system!!! Presently I have two Rockford fosgate T2 built into my custom boxes which does a very neat job in reproducing low end till 14hz. But it flaps around when I crank up to 0db. Till now I thought it does that as I designed the box and system. U really put a light into the topic most reviews won't tell about their $3000 subwoofers.... Very honest review. Thanks......👍
Great video learned a lot thx SIR keep the videos coming when are we getting a demo?? I know of the copy right but what about of the subs moving or you watching a movie in mute so we can see ur face reaction lol
Only time I think there is overkill is when people use full range tower speakers for effects chanels. The movies aren't mixed to take advvantage fo that so it's more speaker than you'll ever need for that purpose. but otherwise, yeah headroom is a good thing to have, over buy if you can, and run things cooler and more effeciently, stuff will last loger too.
If you put too large of a speaker in a small room ,the acoustic signature of that that room are going to work against that particular speaker. Just like if you place a small s peaker in too large of a room. Too much amplification into a speaker coil thats rated to handle lower amplification eventually will heat up coil . There is no need to spend thousands of dollars on a 7 channel amp if you going to have all the gains lower. Its ok to have some headroom buy no need to ho overboard. There is a line when you know you need some headroom and when you essagerated a bit. But if you got money to burn, go right ahead. But most people outhere like to get as much as they can from the gear they allready have.
Great video as always youthman! I am looking to upgrade my speakers soon wondering if you can help me out! Looking at new Klipsch reference premier or the Martin Logan’s you unboxed and reviewed not too long ago? Any thoughts? Thanks!
I would love to hear your set up! I recently moved into a travel trailer and had to sell all my surround sound equipment. When I get a house again some day I'll be extremely excited to get a home theater system together. With two subs this time. Though I won't be able to afford anything like you have ! Lol, lordy. Great video.
I have to agree with you , that manufacturers do play this big wattage game in the AV receiver , especially in the car audio market......there is a few things one should look out for if you enter that market . As in Ohm's rating in the 1 ohm stable to 0.5 ohm stable , and not just look at the wattage output of a amp!
that cracking sound sounds like the voicecoil former smashing against the magnet! probably damaged them a little bit!!! i have ran much higher end car audio subwoofers as well as reconed plenty of them!
i'm wondering, with the massive subs you have behind your acoustically transparent screen, do you ever notice deep heavy bass affecting the screen? moving it, vibrating it, distorting it?
i just found that you had already answered this question in a previous video from Dec '19. "Home Theater | JTR Captivator RS2 Subwoofer Unboxing and Overview" ruclips.net/video/WqBFAjljPdY/видео.html at the 12minnute mark. my bad!
The one area I will say that Watts matter more in a home theater is if you listen to music full range and are sending full range signals to your L and R speakers. I can see my amp meters go well above 300+ watts during loud music sessions, albeit these are pushing over 120db at the listening position, but it will be cleaner the more power you have. For home theater you will seldom run your amps too hard because anything below 80hz is routed to the subwoofers who have their own built in class D amps that are much more powerful.
Vinny Diesel unless you have your processor set to Large for any configuration of your speakers. I ran Audessey to get it dialed in on my Marantz flagship processor and it set my speaker settings to Large...
Marvin Lawrence I don’t run it through my AVR. I have a home theater bypass to a McIntosh c2600. 2 channel through an AVR is not something I would recommend. It runs them full range.
Overkill can be achieved. 30 subwoofers would be overkill, but not because of the 30 subwoofers, but because you would reach a point in which the amount starts to harm the sound. If you can keep the sound clean, then l don't believe in overkill. I do have my own theory though Youthman along the lines that a persons home theatre can sound too good which can distract you from the movie. How many times have you gone "how deep was that bass” or ”jeez that music sounds fantastic” which totally removes you from the movie. It's a delicate balance. Keep up the great work.
Oh man that thing you described with the sub rattling the frame or smacking the bottom of itself, I have had that happen when watcing Ready Player One, at the moment of the massive explosion at the climax of the movie, and not before I got a second sub were I able to do the scene properly
Youthman yeah, I really tought that I had ruined it, but it was okay, I only had to turn down the gain a bit and it did not happen and then I went looking for a second sub to assist in keeping the pressure up and I have to say it was a good investment
underpower does not hurt your speaker, distortion do, when you have 100watt speaker running on a 50watt amplifier thats totally fine unless you overload your amp. even your speaker can take little bit of distinction and you can hear it and turn down the volume, but if you use a 200watt amp it wont distort untill go higher than 200watt and you wont be able to tell, and trust me i build amplifiers and sound boxes and customers many times burned their speaker because of high power amps, your speaker cant handle over than 100watt for long time , its better to use overpower amp if you know what are you doing and dont go full power or match your speaker with your amp power.
Well you definitely have to use some common sense when driving your speakers. You can’t go crazy on either extreme. If you have two low of power, and try to push it be on its capabilities you introduce distortion which will damage your speakers very quickly. If you have a ton of power and crank it up to the max, of course you can definitely blow some speakers doing that. Again common sense goes a long ways in this hobby
@@Youthman thanks for replying, my customer dont understand that, thats why i double the power of speakers, the amp is under powered to damage those speakers on minimum distortion, with high distortion they can totally hear it and turn the volume down.
Well, according to my wife it was a dark dark day when I found your channel. Such is life I say. Keep it up
Hahaha. Don’t let her know where I live
sounds like it's time to upgrade!
I have 13 speakers and 3 10” subs into 1.33 ohms into a 1 ohm load amp. Does it count if it’s in my 19’ boat?
Lol my girlfriend gets pissed when she hears that “pink noise” when doing levels 😂😂😂
😂
When your system starts destroying your house and your neighbors house, then that is when you hit the overkill threshold.
That’s what the volume knob is for
@@Youthman Usually owners of endless system power and massive subs lack volume discipline lol. The wife or the cops are the only true volume knob.
@@VividTheater Yo rock but THAT is when you know your home theater is just right 🤣
When you can’t here anything but bass and you can’t here Dialogue or effects .. then yes it’s overkill
That's not overkill. That's ridiculous.
“Overkill”? Sorry - I’m not familiar with that term.
"overkill" would mean that it would be 'too much' sound power
ivanhoe 1968 woosh
@@Sloimer he took you literally! Lol! Although, you were serious! Lol
Nope not at all. Overkill in audio just means headroom or lack of distortion if proper gear. Less distortion, higher efficiency, and proper gear equals better everything lol
That’s my thoughts exactly
Overkill = Almost Enough
I’m 62 years old, just bought my first set of hearing aids, yes... there is such a thing as overkill once you get to a certain point you pay a whole lotta money for just a little bit, how ever there is a lotta people out there that go the underkill road.... and that really sucks, your right plenty of power is always better, comfortable volume is best, bragging rights..... well that’s stupid!
Paul Tripp Well said Paul! I agree totally.
there's no such thing as overkill when it comes to your passion
This video is a gem. Came right on time for me as I was asking myself the same question about my future plans upgrading my HT. I’m a fan of you and your videos. You are doing good presentations and provide very helpful knowledge. Thank you for sharing!
Thank you very much Daniel I’m glad you’re enjoying the content
Of course there is overkill, but the threshold for which differs among all HT enthusiasts.
Man..this was such a great video. I kinda knew some of this already.. but the way you talked about multiple subs lowering the workload of one to pressurize the room.. that really made good sense.
Overkill is a "term" that doesn't exist when it comes to hometheater
Overkill is a term that should exist in everyone's vocabulary when it comes to home theater.
I agree!! Mine in THX certified and it’s the Perfect set up according to Lucas Film and they are the God fathers of how sound should sound and I have been to their studios and I have NEVER heard anything like it that comes close!! And I have installed theater Gear worth over a hundred thousand dollars... so I can confidently say..There is Term that does matter like YouthMan says.😁
@@charlesm.9858 my $20 earbuds are thx certified
id say same comes to the car audio ;)
@@strtngfrsh nope
I honestly feel it's impossible to have "too much" subwoofer in a room. If I could afford to have 5 32" subs (they're about 3 grand each) instead of the 5 18s I have currently and 6 24" subs (they're about 2 grand each) instead of the 6 15s, I'd do that. Just gain match, time align, set your levels, send it! It's all about HEAD . . to the ROOM!
Can't agree more.
My 0.02 $ is that you need an amp that can do 2x the power of what your speakers are rated, not PEAK power, but the nominal power. If you have more, then that's even better.
Would you rather drive a car with a top speed of 170km/h at 160km/h or a car with top speed of 250km/h at 160km/h ?
Also remember that the less the cone is moving the cleaner the sound, the lesser of distortion. So having 4 - 8 or more subwoofers will make the bass more clean, and you would be able to reach lower digits hz, even single digit hz.(if sealed, vented can't produce under port tuning).
Completely agree
Amp/speaker matching can be tricky sometimes, but having way more amp power to speakers can be dangerous. I agree you do need a bit more (25-30% is my general rule) but 2x rms is overkill and just asking for blown speakers.
I’ve used 200wpc for years with a ton of speakers and have never damaged a speaker.
@@Youthman Yes, and I agree, but that's not a good example. In your case, the speakers may be underrated. Try 2000 watts to a 1000 watt speaker and see what happens. All I was saying is twice the power is not always a good rule to follow. Also you can't always follow receiver wattage specs. 100 watts from a receiver is not always equal to 100 watts from a power amplifier for example. When you push your system, most likely your speakers are seeing a bit lower than that rated receiver power depending on the company.
Common sense has to be used as well. I would have zero issues running a 2000 watt amp with speakers that are rated at 1000 watts. It would be dumb for anyone to turn it wide open. But then again, running a lower wattage wife open is just as dangerous due to distortion and clipping.
I know what you mean about subs needing to pressurized the room. Best thing I ever did during construction is I used tuck tape and acoustic sealant on ever electrical box, over every staple I used for the poly, on every stud, every base and head board so it was completely air tight. I also got sealed plugs to go in every air vent and I used sealed exterior doors to prevent air loss. This was mostly done for addition al sound proofing (plus alot more) but I noticed a significant improvement to my sub response and believe that has to do with a sealed room. It sounded like I doubled my subs and took me days to fix all the rattled.
Great talk, I agree with your points on blending subs within the soundfield and having headroom for your speakers.
I think it was Tom Danley (used to work with Jeff P way back in the day) who said that drivers and loundspeakers start getting into non-linearity/distortion at 10% of rated power. Great video! keep it up, and see if you can get a Danley TH-50 in for review. I'd be curious to know how it compares to your current set up
Danley is next level as well. They design subwoofers for Football Stadiums LOL
Not even someone being killed by their own system ("Death by Stereo", Lost Boys, 1987) would be considered overkill. Spend any time on forums/youtube and you'll soon realize (not that you don't already) that in this industry, more is never enough. Also, save yourself some money and stay away from forums/youtube.
Love the last sentence 😂😂😂
Omar japhet Landeros gonzalez are you there head of advertising
Lol love the profile pic, Kurt Russell, big trouble in little China’s classic. Also lost boys, another classic. Lol good advice!
That Yamaha only plays down to 32Hz. It’s designed for venues where they play music that doesn’t have low frequencies. I’ll stick with my JTR Captivator RS2’s that play flat down to 5Hz.
Youthman ya me to youthman, I’ll stick with Jtr, cap4000 should be getting in about 3 weeks or so.
I agree with you. I even run 2,000 watts to 12 inch subwoofers in my truck but they're dialed in. I also wanted to say thank you very much for sharing the difference in subwoofer because I am looking for new ones.
Thank you for raising and discussing these points. As someone relatively new to the hobby, this dispels a lot of misconceptions I have--making it clearer for me to select which hardware to acquire.
You illustrated that a single subwoofer may struggle to pressurize your room. Where as, more of them working together can share the load and makes it that they all work less for a cleaner sound and maintain health of the equipment! That just makes so much sense. I experienced that with a Polk + Marantz SR8001 set up I had. I had four speakers (no subwoofer) and I noticed how just two of them on would struggle but when I turned all four on, the sound especially at louder volumes seemed to make my walls disappear. I also noticed that when all four speakers were on, the excursion of all the woofers was less but the sound was more and I was able to turn the amp up higher without distortion. I love how scientific this stuff is. Yeah I'm a nerd! Beautiful explanation though!
What needs to be considered is voltage drop from the power line and the efficiency of the amplifier. If you go all in then you need dedicated lines and if you choose certain amps you can pump 220/240 volts which passes considerably more power to the device. If your amp is designed to run Class 'A', you will need to compensate for the lack of efficiency (usually 75% of the power is turned to heat). If you move up the ladder to newer designs, such as Class 'D', efficiency can exceed 90%.
With the Class 'D' you can get more power delivered to your speakers with less waste heat (think ventilation issues, ease of placement), weight and a SMALLER power line. The better power amp modules are sonically indistinguishable from the better traditional designs.
So it's not just the speakers which create choke-points for reproduction volumes. You want to get nuts, get a highly efficient amp, speakers and a power line with no other draws than the amp.
With a good Class 'D' receiver you should be able to avoid the need of an off board amp. Even if you are venturing into crazy loud then consider the same design as IMPORTANT in an outboard amp.
One other added benefit of coll running amplifier, they should last longer. Heat is one of the destructive forces working on your electronics.
It's also eco-friendly. Especially when you are running your A/C to go Class 'D'.
Good info!
Dennis Bohner that is why I have a small breaker box at the meter base. I ran all 10 gauge wire as a dedicated circuit for my home theater, actually three runs. One for my electronics that my monster cable power distribution box is plugged into. Another one for my main amps. The last one for my subwoofer duty using QSC RMX pro audio amplification. Now I’m satisfied that everything is truly getting full power.
18:45 I think it's more than it's overpowering itself than other speakers, it's the overtones that would be the sounds you'd be able to locate from a sub.
It’s a $$$ spent for value consideration. Sure, on an unlimited budget, more is better, but that is rarely a reality in a low or mid level HT build. Amplification power and speaker efficiency is key, balanced with $$$ invested is highly important.
That's why I went the DIY route.
You can get a lot of value to performance with DIY if you are handy
I've got overkill in an efficiency apartment? I've got eight 15" band speakers with horns wired in series parallel with a 1,000 watt Allen Heath powered mixer, and a 3 way 540 watt studio monitor system. They blend phenomenal, i like that old school new school approach.
When I built by home theater room 15 years ago, I found a very detailed formula that was used to fi s out the optimum and maximum amp watch to a particular speaker. It used sensitivity, max speaker capability, cable length, room volume and total number of speakers ( I may have missed on or added one, it was a long time ago) you plugged those numbers into 2 different formulas, 1 gives you minimum per channel and the other gave you maximum. I believe max was based on +10 or basically a level you would never listen to. This helped you get the beat performance without hurting your speakers. I bought just above the max and my AVR does not over work or get too hot.
I just wish I could find it again. I tho k it was in a really old Sound and Vision Magazine
I fully agree with you Youthman! It's NOT overkill if the amps, speakers & subs are dialed in correctly. Great video 🤘
Thank you
I've told my wife I am looking to get a second subwoofer for my theater, which of course she thinks I don't need. Every time we watch a movie I ask her "did you like that?" She says yes of course. So I tell her that everything I've purchased for the home theater I bought for her enjoyment, I'm not being selfish. That seems to work.
.....looks like I'll be getting that second sub fairly soon.
Total agreement Sir.
Overdriving and distortion lead to speaker distruction.
Of course, one could also go "stupid" and run way too much power into a given speaker.
Yes you still have to use common sense. If you have a 200 watt rms speaker and feed it 1000 watts and try and turn it wide open, you are asking for trouble
Been playing for years, decades even. But learned so much with this video. Thank you!
Glad to hear it. I learn something new every day
IMAX audio engineers speak of head room in a RUclips video discussing there speakers and amp. They use a a really great example with driving a car either flooring it all the time or having enough power in the engine to go faster when needed. Thanks for your videos youthman always learning from you.
Glad you are finding the content helpful.
Also, the more subwoofers, the more even the bass is thruout the room (less room modes), so as you said, you don't end up over driving them to fill out the lulls or holes in areas that may not be getting enough bass (even thou other area's may be getting too much . You've talked about room modes in other videos but I don't think you mentioned them here when you were commenting about adding 2 or three more subs ;-)
That is certainly a great point.
You sure make an awesome show every time… Every Time!
Thanks for giving us your knowledge and experience!
Glad you are enjoying the content Rafael
I like this format of video. Lots of common misconceptions out there, and this is timely as I look at external amplification :)
Thank you. I’m trying some new things on the channel. Seeing what people enjoy the most. Thank you for the feedback
I got rid of my centre speaker a couple of years ago. It sounded okay, but I sit within 3 meters of my TV and the voices of actors lost realism. The audio seemed unconnected to the cast, when one actor was on the left of screen having a conversation with someone right of screen, yet both voices eminated from the centre. I am much happier now, especially when just watching a stereo TV programme. I don't have a sub either, because I kept forgetting to switch it off and my mains have enough bass for me. So for me a sub and a center speakers are overkill for me, once I am fully engaged with what is being screened I am not really concentrating too much on the audio. It's totally different when I listen to my two channel hifi system, no subs there either though.
Just to add to another great advice video.
Impedance dips are also demanding on amplifiers especially some receivers
That is very true. My RF7’s have impedance dips down near 2ohm. Didn’t think to mention that.
@@Youthman obviously when buying higher end electronics they can usually deal with such issues
Hmm that's a bit of a personal choice. I played live music for years and had different rigs for different venues.
So really it depends on your space and room dynamics.
Port chuffing is something I wasn’t familiar with but I had an experience with my sub that it made a “fluttery” sound and I had no idea what it was. So I looked up what it was after you said that phrase and sure enough that was the problem. Thanks for the knowledge!
Just became a patreon 120db crew, well done videos, also just finished my home theatre with a Marantz AVR with 5 channel amp with the help of your videos, made the decision a no brainer. Made my home theater come to life! Thanks for all you do Michael!
I'd say that overkill should be seen as balancing gain and budget. For example, if you have amplification that lets you play at your desired listening level without any distortion or other negative effects it will be overkill to increase amp power (since you already have the headroom you need, and amplifier quality is something different) if that means that you can't spend as much on something else, like room treatment which often is something that is very neglected relative to the effort put into the audio system.
When money isn't a factor then I agree that there is no problem with overkill.
I definitely think there's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to spending money on components. But overkill is subjective. I think there are always products and people that will push the limits of what can be done at home. I personally don't believe there is overkill if you are working within your budget and the space is an enjoyable experience
Agree. It makes for good conversation
Grait video man. Realy like your videos and Content, keep up the good work!! 👌
I actualy started building my very first Home theater just 3 days ago, and man i am learning much from your videos.
Thanks!!! 😎👍
Congrats! Enjoy the journey
Youthman Thanks! 👍 I am leaning towards Klipsch speakers. Now I just have 5.1 of Dali. But want something bigger and with more punch!! 😎
I upgraded my TV to a 70" 4K last year. In July, on my birthday; I'm getting a 4K blu-ray player and a 4K 9.2 channel receiver for myself. I'm very excited! Been watching 1080p blurays with 7.1/5.1 surround. I have a full 7.2.2 setup, just no way to fully utilize all the speakers I installed myself. Dolby Atmos is going to be so great!!
Congrats on the upgrades!
All i heard was that a man bought two more massive subs based on one movie scene
Well in my case I could have gone bigger but the layout and size of the room determined the size of my speakers
Just so you know! passive radiators work with resonance. When the woofer is moving in, the passive radiator is also moving in and when the woofer is moving out, the passive radiator is also moving out, in phase with the woofer, helping it compress and decompress the environment. Imaging a slinky hanging off your hand in resonance, as you you push in, the slinky is also pushing in and as you pull, the slinky is also pulling. If the passive radiator would move out when the woofer is moving in and vice versa, the sound of the woofer and passive radiator would cancel out.
Thx for the info. Learn something new every day 👍
Your are welcome!!!
Mechanical Engineering!!! LOL!!!!
Hope the explanation was clear enough!
Thank you very much for the entertainment teammate! I enjoy your videos very much!!!!
There is a lot of technical knowledge I do not know but I love learning from others. In the end we learn from each other. I certainly do not have it all figured out
@@Youthman Teammate you do a fantastic job and I appreciate your videos! The passive radiator movement is extremely counter intuitive and beyond the scope of the excellent reviews that you do!
Great video I’m just starting to dive into the hobby. I had been wondering about this exact topic for a little while now. Thanks for all the info keep up the great work.
Many good points!
Don't underpower you LCRs
Clipping=no bueno
(simply listening closely one can hear loudspeaker compression, if they're compressing, turn it down)
Also remember;
It takes 4x excursion to maintain level and drop one octave.
So if your sub system can attain reference level in a bass managed 5.1 or 7.1 system (~125dB* or so) at 25hz** to hit achieve that at 12.5hz*** you need to quadruple your sub capability.
*(for example worst case scenario, ie, full scale 0dB LFE, +7ch)
**(quite difficult)
***(extremely difficult)
Very good information and super educational. Thank you so much!
Great Video ! I fully agree with Youthman !! we must have enough headroom in both Amplifier and SW/Speakers to enjoy movies or music. I have a dual 12 inch Sunfire and Dennon 11.2 with Marantz 5 channel power Amp MM 7055 for earlevel speakers sounds great both at high and low volumes !!
Very informative!Thank you! Would love to have all the power when you need it for sure!So yes would love to be in a position of "over kill"!
Another thing to add you need dedicated 20 amp for a receiver or you won't get the power that the amp in that AVR has to offer, if you add an amp it is recommended to get more than a 20 amp outlet to power the amp
I run my theater off of a dedicated 20
Wonderful and informative video! I really appreciate that you went into such great detail to explain your positions.
I’ve always had a saying. Too much is never enough
I have a very modest budget home cinema system , REL 400 sub ,Denon 2600 and four mission lx 2 speakers and a mission lx centre speaker , I have two monitor audio radius 45 for atmos. My room is only 12 foot square and it’s enough. But I love watching audiophile you tubers like this man.
For those asking why we need twice amplifier power just for 3db, 50dB is 10 times stronger than 40dB, at least based on measurement where 0 dB is a level that most, if not all humans, cannot hear. The thing that I am trying to say is that the dB scale, is logarithmic, not linear, altough we hear it quite linearly.
And I think refrence level (80dB) is the level at which the average human can hear all fequencies from 20Hz to 20kHz well.
And it is not exactly the amplifier that moves the driver but rather the magnet, which is powered by the amplifier.
Anyway, great video Youthman, extremely informative.
Yes, definitely. This was touched on in your video regarding subwoofers, but having too large of speakers for a small space can present issues. You will introduce significant room gain in bass, if you're not able to pull them away from the walls/corners. This will result in requiring proper room treatment (which isn't cheap) and appropriate room correction to tame excessive bass frequencies, which can cause bloating and unevenness. So, yes, you can overpower your room with too much displacement. Every room is different, so you need to do the proper research.
Excellent summarization...
Well done 👍
Not to be that guy but a passive radiator is a tuning device, like a port. Claiming you have 8 15" drivers isn't any more accurate than counting your ports as subwoofers. Also passive radiators do NOT push pull as you describe around 14:30. When the active woofer goes out, so does the PR because the back pressure pushes it out.
Thank you for the correction. I learn something new every day.
@@Youthman No sweat. Thanks for the great content.
Appreciate you watching
I have a question for you Michael(@Youthman). Ever since you got your friend (who had that insane JTR Home Theatre, I can't remember his name) help you dial in your Captivators with your miniDSP, I had a question that has been bugging me.
What if you used the miniDSP on the SVS PB16-Ultra's? Now of course you will get more output with the JTR's, but I remember you mentioning how much of a difference it made to your JTR's after properly dialing them in.
To late to test now, but what if you dialed the PB16-Ultra's the same way. Would they of giving you enough response to satisfy your ears per say?
I know what you mean by having overkill is good with headroom but with properly dialed in equipment would there truely be a need to go with excessive equipment. The Captivators are 2.67 times more powerful rms over the pb16-ultra so roughly speaking 3-4 db more output in theory. Just a thought that's all.
I'm becoming more of a Rythmik fan these day, never ever owned an svs. Budgets dont allow for any upgrades right now lol. Can only window shop and research.
Happy Easter and have a great day 😃
Great questions Edwin. The PB16’s have a limited 3 band PEQ (Parametric EQ, nor do they have a method of time aligning them (delay). The miniDSP offers soooo much more the. The DSP in the SVS subs.
Port chuffing is a reality for most ported subs. You don’t get that with sealed subs.
Lastly, the PB16’s go down to around -7Hz then drop very rapidly. The RS2’s are flat down to 10Hz in my room.
In every way, the RS2’s are just next level.
@@Youthman ahhh yes, thanks for reminding me on the roll off. I had forgotten about that. That truely is a game changer! And port chuffing would definitely be an issue. I can see why the JTR's would be the favored sub!😀
On a side note, would you ever down the road consider reviewing any Rythmik subs. Would Love to hear your opinion on such subs. Especially from someone who truely knows quality bass.
Keep these videos coming man, always look forward to your content!! 👍
Yes, I reached out to them awhile back and never heard back from them so I moved on.
@@Youthman brutal .... makes me sad to hear that ☹
Maybe one day I'll give you a review lol 🤣🤣
Overkill ?
Is it Overkill to have Bespoke Suits made if you can afford them No
Is it Overkill to buy the very best Turntable one can attord,and to 2 haveothers in service for particular records No
Is it overkill to polish your shoes every day No
One of the most painful sounds is hearing an amplifier being driven to clipping.
It is the equivalent of an aural overdraft a destructive and dreadful experience
Clean power is the only power particularly for the reproduction of classical music
In all things you should always have something in reserve
Thankyou for another excellent video
What you say is equally applicable to the reproduction of music.
Orchestras are never conducted to clipping
19:53 . . . I like to equate it to cars (since I'm a car guy with an 'exotic'). Would you rather have to get up to highway speed (call it 75mph) with a 200hp 4 cylinder? Or would you rather have a 500hp 8 cylinder? That V8 is going to consume less fuel, generate less heat, work more efficiently and you're only going to have to BREATHE on the throttle for it to get up to 75. That 4 banger is going to put in the same effort, but it's going to be a LOT closer to it's MAX POWER (Initial D reference) to make that happen. That V8, you can start merging and if someone doesn't let you in, you just dust them.
Super informative. Loved hearing your perspective on this!
Very well done video, I have tried explaining there is no such thing as overkill to people since 1978! Explaining distortion, clipping etc.... I'm going to point people to this video, thanks. The other thing I have to explain is phase, for some people some people can't tell when speakers are out of phase, back in the day it seemed most stereo stores had speakers hooked up this way, drove my ears insane.
The bigger the output of the amp theoretically the better for your speakers as they are not struggling to drive them and therefore can control them better however that does not always hold true you can get a higher quality amp with less wattage that will sound much better than a high output monster that isn't reproducing the sound properly so its a bit of a difficult question to answer properly generally you need to find an amp that matches well with the speakers you are using.
Unfortunately i don't agree with you in regards to subs the lower the frequency you reproduce in the system the slower the note is and unfortunately it has a side effect of masking the faster bass notes to the point you cannot hear the fast bass notes in some cases you will hear one massive bass note which you might think is fantastic until you realise there's supposed to be 3 notes played, so where i would call it overkill is where the bass is so powerful that it is actually detrimental to the sound of the system
Wow super super super informative I am trying to build my system and don’t want to make mistakes THANK YOU!!!! SO MUCH
Glad to help
I think the specific way there can be overkill is if the room is too small to absorb the energy waves that sub-woofers produce. In larger rooms, it would not be an issue but the energy waves produced in sub-woofers have to be reflected, and if the room is too small there would be extreme bounce back. But this video showcases the anxiety that audiophiles have. Audio quality , no matter how good it is, is never enough for them, and they will forever upgrade their equipment in the pursuit of perfection.
Pretty much the same with any hobby you are passionate about.
@@Youthman Thank God I am not as passionate as some others are, otherwise I would be broke. LOL
I thought my home system was okay, on the older side but worked. Then I got a new car and I heard things that I had never heard on my home system. I'm looking at upgrading (adding an amp and changing out center/mains) but have found a rabbit hole of information.
Is there a good source that lays out the basics and terms? With searches I have done (like every topic now) there is a bunch of cross information; I don't know where to start.
Very thoughtful and thorough video. Learned a lot thank you. I hope listeners can distinguish between dialed in and overkill. Maybe a follow up vid on diff scenarios and how to calibrate overkill from just right (or under powered too). Well done. Mind you I guess a virtual reality headset and chair maybe just as effective in communicating the experience you are looking for too. Cheaper and easier to set up, lol. Just not social...
Wow! That is.... Wow! I like it. I understand it. I probably would do something similar to that if I had the opportunity. I wonder what it sounds like. I wonder how far can you hear that away from the house. I wonder if you can hear that from maybe a couple blocks away.
Love you sight!!! Avid viewers here! Sure do wish you would also review HOME THEATER SEATING...especially the BIG & TALL seats. Seems like nobody on RUclips does this. Keep up the great vids!!!
I have several home theater seating reviews on my channel. Look up Valencia Tuscany, Valencia Verona and Valencia Oxford on my channel. I have not reviewed any Big and Tall seats though.
YES!!! For one example... if you have small Jamo towers for fronts, but 6 18inch subs... thats overkill!!! At some point, every system will face diminishing returns...
The only overkill in a home theater I could think off is having a sound stage or space that's too large for a given room size, that's when you lose some small details in the soundfield, or the sound sometimes just doesn't seem right. Not because of overpower but coz of speaker or other component level and specs that require larger spaces to perform optimally.
Hey bro, love your videos. Always informative and well put together. Content is always great. Question... starting to upgrade my old 5.1 to a 7.2.2 or 7.2.4... started looking into LFR and think I like the R820f for left and right and r34c for center... whats your advice? I noticed in one of your videos u have a regular left or right as a center. Is that absolutely necessary?
An LCR configuration is three identical speakers. This will provide the best performance and an absolute seamless transition when sound pans from one speaker to the next. Is this absolutely necessary? No. It's just the best option.
Lots of good info in this video again thanks!
I agree Youthman 👍... it’s kinda like pleasing a woman...small can be enuff but bigger is better because a man doesn’t have to work it as hard 😁
😂😂😂
But if you got it you’re gonna use it all. Right?
@@williamtoth6186 dam right
Wow bro
That's a great way of explaining it ...youthman should borrow that 😂
I think what happens with some home theater enthusiasts is they desensitize themselves to bass to the point where they turn their home theater into a carnival ride (and ear destroyer) rather than a good sounding home theater. They put huge high output subwoofers in and run them extremely hot where it doesn't even sound good anymore. It just sounds like a kids car stereo. I mean lets say you want to run +4dB hot in the LFE, that's fun I get it, but these guys running like +10dB or even greater (like that dbox guy video you had) are just building amusement park gimmicks rather than reference home theaters imo. Now maybe that guy normally runs his system just a little hot in the LFE and that's cool. I mean as long as they are having fun but for the most part when I see the people with huge huge huge sub arrays the total package has been compromised by their setup. USUALLY! Sometimes they run just a little hot still but want the bass to just be super clean so they run tons of subs and then run them so they just coast / lower distortion.
I agree it’s really all about how it’s set up.
@@Youthman How hot do you run your LFE channel over the mains? I know you want to upgrade your PB16s because of the chuffing, since your room is moderate in size maybe consider some large sealed subs. I know you have the hots for JTR but also PSA makes nice sealed stuff. You should look into their iPal stuff. Since you are friends with Jeff he'll probably give you a big discount though where the JTR will be a better value for you.
I’m not sure how hot we ended up running the subs but it’s blended very seamlessly with my system.
I sold my PB16’s last week to upgrade to the RS2’s. PSA does make great subs. I reviewed the PSA S3611 awhile back.
@@Youthman I think you'll be a lot happier with that than the SVS (no bully against SVS). Vented subs are great in big rooms, but I think in your modestly sized one a sealed is the way to go. No more sneezing ports during those oddball scenes. In big rooms I think it is worth the chuffing for the extra output, but I think I'd go with a PSA vented over a SVS dollar for dollar. The JTRs have gotten expensive now, but I imagine you got a youtuber discount
Yes the PSA and JTR both make great subs that easily outperform SVS. I still really like SVS, the other two are just next level. If you look at SVS, they have gotten quite expensive over the years now that they are distributing through big box stores due to the additional markup needed to do so.
What movie has low frequency at 20 hz. or lower ? You must use frequency generator for such low bass that you love. I have six power sub woofers in my system, three of the power subs are used for the low frequency channel. I use full size JBL speakers for all channels.
Lots of movies have sub 20Hz content. Google for a long list
Yep, the only overkill thing is too much sound pressure and cancellation from too much bass. I like a bassey system but I like it to be clean too. I had a not so great experience with a local movie theater. It's is a newer place but they use an ancient / improperly dialed surround setup (High's spike and too much midrange) and apparently a wall of subwoofers that flutter out the mid's and high's. It really felt like there were Buttkicker modules attached to the seating but nope, just regular flip down seats. Impressive bass just a bad application.
Any system can sound terrible if not dialed in properly. But it’s not about having too many, it’s about improper installation and application
The term “overkill” is in my vocabulary but is limited by my budget! I appreciate all the components I’d like to have but know that some are simply not affordable for me! 👍😁
Wow this is HT 101, I wish I had had a video like this one to guide me into this crazy hobby when I first started back in the 90's... Some great info here for the rookie! Now as far as overkill is concerned, I've been at this game for many years and I have not gotten to that point...With my years of experience, I've improved the quality of my ht by buying better components, and bigger subs because when it comes to bottom end, bigger is better! By doing that, I have no problem pushing my ht to reference level with no strain! And that to me is Sonic Bliss!
Yeah bigger subs are better as long as they are good performing subs and you have the space available to accommodate them.
And yep that's the key having the headroom to hit the home reference level if you choose to play at that level.
But 8 or more massive subs playing hot way over the home reference level is overkill! It will give a inaccurate bass presentation plus damage your ears hearing in the mid to long term.
Would it be overkill ? Absolutely not ! I love this man 😂😂😂
If you're hearing alot of port chuffing inside of your subwoofers frequency response then they are incorrectly placed. Perhaps you've never been able to get the results you desire because you've been putting your subwoofers where they look good instead of where they sound good. There's no replacement for displacement, but there is also no replacement for proper speaker placement.
Youthman, my room is 12’x24’ I’m planning on using two SVS 16” plus ported subs. Now will adding one or two more of those subs, will that allow me to get those real lows?
Wow not many ppl talk abt these things. I'm surprised that a subwoofer worth 3000$ too flap around when it's loud. I believed a svs 18" sub would just complete my system!!!
Presently I have two Rockford fosgate T2 built into my custom boxes which does a very neat job in reproducing low end till 14hz. But it flaps around when I crank up to 0db. Till now I thought it does that as I designed the box and system.
U really put a light into the topic most reviews won't tell about their $3000 subwoofers....
Very honest review. Thanks......👍
I think it would be great if SVS made an 18”.
@@Youthman When I have saved enough to buy a svs, I hope they have an18" then!!!!
Don’t hold your breath lol
Great video learned a lot thx SIR keep the videos coming when are we getting a demo?? I know of the copy right but what about of the subs moving or you watching a movie in mute so we can see ur face reaction lol
Check out this video for a demo - ruclips.net/video/Oj7gYi5i-aI/видео.html
Only time I think there is overkill is when people use full range tower speakers for effects chanels. The movies aren't mixed to take advvantage fo that so it's more speaker than you'll ever need for that purpose. but otherwise, yeah headroom is a good thing to have, over buy if you can, and run things cooler and more effeciently, stuff will last loger too.
If you put too large of a speaker in a small room ,the acoustic signature of that that room are going to work against that particular speaker. Just like if you place a small s peaker in too large of a room. Too much amplification into a speaker coil thats rated to handle lower amplification eventually will heat up coil . There is no need to spend thousands of dollars on a 7 channel amp if you going to have all the gains lower. Its ok to have some headroom buy no need to ho overboard. There is a line when you know you need some headroom and when you essagerated a bit. But if you got money to burn, go right ahead. But most people outhere like to get as much as they can from the gear they allready have.
Great video as always youthman! I am looking to upgrade my speakers soon wondering if you can help me out! Looking at new Klipsch reference premier or the Martin Logan’s you unboxed and reviewed not too long ago? Any thoughts? Thanks!
It’s always best to listen with your own ears to find out what your ears prefer. Both are great speakers, but do sound different
I would love to hear your set up! I recently moved into a travel trailer and had to sell all my surround sound equipment. When I get a house again some day I'll be extremely excited to get a home theater system together. With two subs this time. Though I won't be able to afford anything like you have ! Lol, lordy. Great video.
Do you ever trip the circuit in your theater?
I have never tripped a breaker running a dedicated 20amp circuit
I have to agree with you , that manufacturers do play this big wattage game in the AV receiver , especially in the car audio market......there is a few things one should look out for if you enter that market . As in Ohm's rating in the 1 ohm stable to 0.5 ohm stable , and not just look at the wattage output of a amp!
Car audio is pretty bad at doing that as well
that cracking sound sounds like the voicecoil former smashing against the magnet! probably damaged them a little bit!!! i have ran much higher end car audio subwoofers as well as reconed plenty of them!
i'm wondering, with the massive subs you have behind your acoustically transparent screen, do you ever notice deep heavy bass affecting the screen? moving it, vibrating it, distorting it?
I'm glad you asked, I just made a video on that today - ruclips.net/video/ftEuS3sMq2U/видео.html
i just found that you had already answered this question in a previous video from Dec '19.
"Home Theater | JTR Captivator RS2 Subwoofer Unboxing and Overview"
ruclips.net/video/WqBFAjljPdY/видео.html
at the 12minnute mark. my bad!
Always a fantastic day when you post.
Appreciate it MDJAK
The one area I will say that Watts matter more in a home theater is if you listen to music full range and are sending full range signals to your L and R speakers. I can see my amp meters go well above 300+ watts during loud music sessions, albeit these are pushing over 120db at the listening position, but it will be cleaner the more power you have. For home theater you will seldom run your amps too hard because anything below 80hz is routed to the subwoofers who have their own built in class D amps that are much more powerful.
Vinny Diesel unless you have your processor set to Large for any configuration of your speakers. I ran Audessey to get it dialed in on my Marantz flagship processor and it set my speaker settings to Large...
Marvin Lawrence I don’t run it through my AVR. I have a home theater bypass to a McIntosh c2600. 2 channel through an AVR is not something I would recommend. It runs them full range.
Overkill can be achieved. 30 subwoofers would be overkill, but not because of the 30 subwoofers, but because you would reach a point in which the amount starts to harm the sound. If you can keep the sound clean, then l don't believe in overkill. I do have my own theory though Youthman along the lines that a persons home theatre can sound too good which can distract you from the movie. How many times have you gone "how deep was that bass” or ”jeez that music sounds fantastic” which totally removes you from the movie. It's a delicate balance. Keep up the great work.
Oh man that thing you described with the sub rattling the frame or smacking the bottom of itself, I have had that happen when watcing Ready Player One, at the moment of the massive explosion at the climax of the movie, and not before I got a second sub were I able to do the scene properly
That’s quite scary when you realize what just happened.
Youthman yeah, I really tought that I had ruined it, but it was okay, I only had to turn down the gain a bit and it did not happen and then I went looking for a second sub to assist in keeping the pressure up and I have to say it was a good investment
Just missing the 20 tweeters
underpower does not hurt your speaker, distortion do, when you have 100watt speaker running on a 50watt amplifier thats totally fine unless you overload your amp. even your speaker can take little bit of distinction and you can hear it and turn down the volume, but if you use a 200watt amp it wont distort untill go higher than 200watt and you wont be able to tell, and trust me i build amplifiers and sound boxes and customers many times burned their speaker because of high power amps, your speaker cant handle over than 100watt for long time , its better to use overpower amp if you know what are you doing and dont go full power or match your speaker with your amp power.
Well you definitely have to use some common sense when driving your speakers. You can’t go crazy on either extreme. If you have two low of power, and try to push it be on its capabilities you introduce distortion which will damage your speakers very quickly. If you have a ton of power and crank it up to the max, of course you can definitely blow some speakers doing that. Again common sense goes a long ways in this hobby
@@Youthman thanks for replying, my customer dont understand that, thats why i double the power of speakers, the amp is under powered to damage those speakers on minimum distortion, with high distortion they can totally hear it and turn the volume down.
If you set everything up right. Balance everything out it should be okay should be no problems at all