Deterrence Through Terror: 23rd Century Romulan Fleet Doctrine II
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- Опубликовано: 14 сен 2022
- As we prepare to look at the "Tomed Incident" this week we look into the developments in Romulan fleet doctrine from the TOS era to the Movie Era. Where Strategic Strike Doctine is superseded by one of Strategic Deterrence, but is it enough to keep the enemies of the Star Empire at bay?
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This Romulan tactic is reminiscent of the strategy of Japan in World War 2. They knew they couldn't win a protracted war against the US so they hoped to do as much damage as possible to buy the most time they could to take territory and then negotiate a peace settlement before they got utterly annihilated.
I was thinking more cold war ballistic missile and hunter killer submarine warfare. What do you think of that concept? I agree with parts of what you say, its just there is no stealth in the Japanese battle line. By that i mean destroyers, cruisers, battle cruisers and battleships. Obviously submarines but they didn't do great lol.
@@paulbeaney4901, there was stealth in the Japanese battle doctrine. They used swarms of destroyers firing torpedoes from long-range at night to weaken the enemy before a decisive battle.
@@enoughothis yes you are correct my friend. I apologise. What do you think of the submarine doctrine comparison?
@@paulbeaney4901, the Romulans certainly used the same tactics that Cold War submarines did; carefully shadow the enemy, observe movements and mark targets. Where the analogy falls apart is that Starfleet didn't have cloaking devices on any of their ships, at least not that I'm aware, so they're not playing the same game with the Romulans. Then again they did love their long-range listening posts so I suppose there might be a certain parity there.
@@paulbeaney4901 that was what I was consciously going for.
I've learned more about the ship classes and military doctrines of the major Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers from this channel than I ever have from various source books, over the years. Well done, good sir.
I cannot tell you how much I enjoy those T’Liss Birds of Prey with the secondary hills beneath. It’s exactly would you would expect to have happen and it mirrors something like the Miranda class so well. Yeah, that one is a new favorite for sure....
I still think that dual hull scaled up Bird of Prey is the coolest thing ever
The thrai. Yeah it's awesome.
Yeeeep
Unlike the 22nd century, the Romulans in the 23rd century no longer have the number or tech advantage. As such this does seem like a reasonable strategic revision that the Romulans would do. One that may be put into action given that foreshadowing at the end there.
;)
Haven’t watch it yet but had to hit the like asap. Always look forward to your episodes.
You took the nuclear nightmare scene from terminator 2 and did a romulan green color palate. Very cool
Not going to lie, Brian Blessed jump-scared the hell out of me...
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every way shape and form and detail possibly provided indeed👌.
Right🖖
well done mate!
Going with the V-7 class x cruiser? I'd have thought the T-10 Bright One class vi destroyer.
I was trying to figure out the choice of V-6 class vi cruiser. But I'm looking at the stats. It fills the same niche as the S-11 class v scout. Slightly slower and less protected, but despite the lack of torps it is better armed. And Klingons aren't building V-4s.
The Firebird is basically the Romulan Constellation.
So Basically a type of Mutually Assured Destruction.
"You might take me out but I am taking you with me"
getting MAD vibes from this , very coldwar thinking
#protectandsurvive look it up, its pretty jaw dropping....
Loving the mod work on the Nova, more intimidating, I used to have one, and that lead chunk weighed a bit
So 5 strike wings of 24 ships each, plus 16 T'liss refits, plus 4 firebirds. That's about 140 ships in total for the late 2200s Romulans.
Also, so it would seem that akin to baseball, you did 3 strategic *strikes* before getting it out of your system.
Correction there are 4x the defence fleets with 20 WOV 16 Tliss and 4 firehawk.
And I'm sure there's more than that. All the escorts, frigates, cutters, and so on.
And then the new classes (from Interplay) maybe.
The philosophy is strategic strike is outdated and outmotive. Combined warfare is the key to actually winning like you said in the romulan wars. They overstruct their logistics and supply lines. Without reinforcements those ideals become Myers and very fragmentary.
Also, watched this at work. Coworker and I were laughing at the proper use of Brian Blessed.
Honestly, what Strategic Strike and Strategic Deterrence make me think of most is Yesterday’s Enterprise. In the alternate timeline over 20 billion people had died in the war between the Klingons and the Federation, and the Federation was on the verge of losing the war. This never made sense to me given the massive logistical advantages the Federation had over the Klingon Empire, but if the Klingons lead off with their version of Strategic Strike/Deterrence it could explain how the Empire killed so many people, put Star Fleet on the back foot, and then slowly ground out a victory.
Potentially if they had romulan help/ advisors
Interesting that this doctrine is very consistent with what happened later at the Khitomer Massacre and at Narendra III.
Yeah although by that point they had a lot more capital grade ships to play with...
Good examples you could reference would be Damar's attack on the Dominion cloning facilities on Rondak or the Breen's attack on Earth/Sol system
Your awesome
Brian Blessed. THE LOUDEST MAN IN BRITAIN! HE LIVES HIS LIFE IN ALL CAPS
He Punched a Polar Bear! IN THE FACE!!!
Romulans. I love their ruthlessly calculative nature. It's such a refreshing change from the boisterous idiotic Klingons. Romulans and Cardassians are my favourite factions in Star Trek.
@Zali -
Romulans & Cardassians are the ideal normal enemy , intelligence work , calculating , PsyOps etc.
I'm definitely getting the Thrai at the end of this STO event season. I need my pre-deredex. This Video is a Strategic Strike into my conundrum.
I got mine last season, I couldn’t not after seeing it for the first time, such a beautiful step between the T’liss and D’Deridex, it’s almost like the Romulan answer to the Ambassador class, I can imagine the Ambassador may have gone out fighting some of them.
Great thumbnail. I liked the duel plasma torpedoes. Apart from the balance of terror warp speed issue. You would think the romulans would have attempted to gather intelligence before the first attack, or solved the warp speed or power plan issues first. , they were able to establish diplomatic relations with the Klingons rather quickly and they had contact already. Sort of like we assume they did with the dderidex. Before revealing thier intentions.
Recon could have risked the element of surprise. They didn't know if it would work. Whereas with the d'deridex they knew they could get away with it.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 yes perhaps, come to think of it , the bird of prey wasn't as invisible as it appeared. Maybe they could target it but they could tell it was near by
I really liked the Romulan battlecruiser seen in the comic book series Star Trek: The Tabukan Syndrome.
Love it Star Trek Legacy for the old school
the problem with this strategy is the enemy is alive and very angry.
No noo no, VGM98, more bits, more drops, more humor is welcome!
I have to wonder how the doctrine will change by the time of the Dominion War. Will the Jem'Hadar ever get to put the Romulan defense wings to the test?
Oh no we are at warbird doctrine by that point. 'Strategic maneaver' I have done a video covering it.
oh my.... i nearly threw the cup of coffe..... yeah Strategic strike, i got the ppp...pooint... *starts crying*
9:16 It seems the 6th, 9th, and Praetorian legions inherited their logos from some of the old strike wings 😉
Well spotted
Are there any inhabited planets in the wolf 359 are there a federation colony world there because the star is very similar to our star except it's a little bit dimmer but it'll burn a lot longer
And compare this to the Tal Shiar of STO, which is a power-hungry monster which will destroy literally everything that gets in its way, including its own people.
I wonder what would have happened if the romulans would have won the civil war and the Vulcans would have plead the planet and the romulans would be the one to make first contact with the Terran empire
Raise your hand if you recognized Judgement Day, even with the filter.
STRIKE!!!!!!!!
Makes sense. Send cloaked ships to hit the enemy centers of gravity.
Fresh horses
@03:37 -- You broke your promise :(
So basically:
"Nice logistics hub you have there! It'd be a shame if something were to happen to it" (while holding bombs and guns, hint hint wink wink)
Hopefully the wings of vengeance aren't made of explodium
I mean they aren't the most durable. But they are quick.
Interesting. The Romulans go all in. Try and inflict as much damage as early as possible to slow down any retaliatory response and bring thier enemy to the negotiating table. However, they don't seem to have any reserves, or any real capability to fight a long war or engage defensively. So they load the dice up early and throw it and hope that they bring the enemy to the engotiating table.
But if that fails, then they have no real recourse or seemingly ability to hold out against a dedicated ,long term counterattack or attritional policy. They have defense wings but not a lot of them - and they in turn feel they hve to deploy everywhere with them. The Klingons and Federation each massively outnumber them and they can't defend all their territory. This is where theoretically in a drawn out attritional war they lose by lack of reserves. If they piss off the Federation hard enough to be willing to engage in a long term war.. Then they're not going to win.
Their war plans also -require- everything to go their way. They have to get first mobilization, get the drop on Starfleet, destroy enemy infrastructure, and inflict enough damage on planets to prevent large scale counterattacks. Then they need to coordinate their own defensive fleets with good intelligence to intercept enemy retaliatory groups. If their strategic strike groups are attrited, don't inflict as much damage, or aren't off on the perfect start, and retaliatory strikes into their territory aren't stopped clean.. Then they have no other options.
Their plan is 'all or nothing' and requires it to go exactly perfectly. it's what their doctrine is focused on. But they lack the strategic reserves for any other sort of options. If anything goes wrong or not as planned, the entire war can turn against them as soon as it's declared. Like their first war doctrine; they're overcommitted to a single thing that has to go off exactly the way they wish or it's a total failure.
And I'm also guessing that even at warp they'll be slow. Mobile, yes. High speed, likely not at much. They can sprint, but they likely wouldn't have a high cruising speed. So they're reliant on being dispersed and mobile, heading towards targets when war starts.
@@Wedgekree yeah although the use of the cloaking device does improve the odds. And critically prevents the enemy from having a real estimate of numbers.
The Romulans have more of a Navy than Starfleet it seems. lol
If they taught these tactics at Miramir, pilots would basically be unstoppable.
In what way?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Thier flight and squad tactics strike me of being similar to UK and US naval patterens.
You don't see much of that in Starfleet. Just...fleet size where the flagship just assumes command and gives orders..
@@michaelmacleod6517 sometimes. In the 23rd century there is a pretty formalised organizational structure but they do loose it by the golden age.
Wait, "Kido Butai"?
I was quite surprised by the screaming as I watch this quietly while the sun comes up, trying not to wake my wife. Not the kind of thing I expect from this channel
sorry i couldn't resist...
Deterrence through terror isn't effective what is effective is a massive display of power if attacked
Yes but the romulans have got to be aware by the time of the border wars that the federation will even take a bad deal rather than fight a war they know they can win if they just get a little brutal if they just take the gloves off but they don't want to take those gloves off and they'd rather take a bad deal then fight a war they know they can win the romulans I think figure this out and I make some a lot bolder it makes them think well we'll just build these big giant air decks we don't need a bunch of them anyway we just need to project the power and then the federation will negotiate almost every time and they'll even take a bad deal we can win a lot of things association table
A notion that lasts riiiight up until the Borg and the Dominion show up. Now Starfleet is willing and able to throw hands.
Did the romulans and the Klingons ever feel threatened because the federation had trilithium torpedoes one trilithium device to destroy an entire solar system forcing a star to go Nova now what would stop the federation from using a cloak ship getting into say romulan or Klingon or Dominion space and launching I try lithium torpedo to destroy the star which would destroy the system making an artificial supernova because usually Stars around the smaller stars like ours don't usually go Nova and that's the kind of stars that would be around planets like like the Klingon star they've got a star very similar to ours Romulus is main star is very similar to Earth
Instructor, Starfleet Academy does not approve of your use of "STRIIIKE!" Meme. We have gotten reports of cadets with sensitive hearing being treated in sick bay.
This is your first.....strike....do not do it again.
On another note: The strategy of Strategic Deterrent only works on an enemy you know will back down if the blood price is too high for them. Federation may back down if you target strategic worlds. Either leveling them or doing enough damage where they are a liability to the war effort. Or it could backfire. Where the Federation becomes embolden to press on and finish the fight. Even if there will be the minority of people wanting to stop the war. Enough people would speak up and demand their pound of flesh from such a cowardly attack.
The Federation is such a Wild Card when it comes to matters like these. Unlike the Klingons. Where you know, if you attack them. They will gear up for war without a second thought. While the Federation could buckle under the pressure or pick themselves up, rub the blood from their nose, and raise up their fists. All because they didn't hear the bell.
Politics play a really big part in such a strategy. You need to know your enemy's politics. If you know you have an enemy with a weak political leadership, but still have a strong martial strength. Well, if there are some systems you want. Take them. They may make a fuss but won't do anything. And if they do. Well, just blow up a world and give them back the system. Make it clear you will give back rubble. If they try anything. Now if the enemy has a strong political power and weak martial strength. Same as before. If the enemy is weak all around. Take them over, if possible. If the enemy is strong all around. Do nothing. Do not start anything. Do not even think about doing a Pearl Harbor on Earth Space Dock. It would not turn out well for you.
Need to know your enemy, their politics, their religion, their weapons, and the psychological of thepeople. Knowledge is power. Power is strength. Strength is domination. Domination rules over the galaxy!
That is all.
Yeah. The romulans have a strong poker face. But the federation may be in a mood to call their bluff.
So, it’s akin to the pre-War Imperial Japanese strategy for WW-II against the Colonial Powers (including the US) sans the Decisive Battle portion (which may actually be in there, if we think about it.) But, as the StarFleet Teaching Staff has so kindly pointed out: they must know the enemies politics. My response: they’re Romulans.... what makes you think they don’t have agents undercover either blackmailing Federation representatives and/or outright controlling/replacing them?! It would only take a few votes here and there (on the front end) to yield huge results on the back end. I suggest we immediately round up and imprison ALL FEDERATION delegates, representatives and political leaders for our SAFETY! .... grumble grumble JOLAN TRUE!
Lol . STRIKE
The Brian Blessed strike meme is old and was never funny. Just throwing that out there.
Deterrence through terror never works. It serves as motivation for a total war scenario and it enables a desire to remove an enemy's capacity to exist to enable terror previously imposed.. This is what happened in WW2 to Japan & Germany, not even including the nuclear strikes. In Federation lore, I'm surprised at what the Star Fleet was forced to give away in negotiating with the Romualns, metaphasic cloaking or cloaking at all...
You'll see why. So (because it is relevant to the episode) do you think it was worth dropping the bombs?
Oh my comment wasn't meant as a bomb drop of a criticism. I knew well where you we're headed when I wrote this (even before your video concluded). This was an anticipated viewpoint with respect of following you for three years, I know exactly how you may feel about this. I await your upcoming your videos on this intro video of what will be your Tomed Incident video series. Btw I've been following Ukraine very closely since the Revolution of Dignity, and I applaud you on your campaign fund raiser. You can expect a future, albeit much later than I anticipated, member of your channel later in the year. You have a fan in this 43 (physically going on 73) Dallas, Texan. I do expect to engage you to volunteer at some point, as I have a plethora and wide range of voices I can do in support of Star Trek Story Time with VGM98. And, where my efforts can be used, I will volunteer my heart out if it benefits those terrified souls of Ukraine (actually I'm very versed in Ukrainian history going well before the Soviet revolution and Stalin's madness), I'm all for it and pledge what I can. Keep up the good work! And more bits & hijinks please! I do and always love funny!
@@carnifexor3010 thank you for your offer. you know where to find me :)
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yes, sir!
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I found your respective channel's Facebook group, and posted a howdy doody message to the group (more or less) after acceptance. :)