Who has the Best Attack ship? (Star trek Factions compared)
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- Опубликовано: 5 май 2021
- this is a first in what will hopefully be a series of videos in which i compare the various ships of the dominion war. today we will be comparing some of the smallest yet most numerous combatants in the form of the attack ships. including the Klingon bird of prey, the Defiant, the Jem'hadar fighter, the Cardassian Hedeki, and the romulan scout.
don't forget to share your rankings in the comments below.
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Given both my own thoughts and this comparison video, I would lean to agree with you. Tactically/1v1 the Defiant comes out on top do it powerful abilities. Strategically (in the case of the Dominion war), the Klingon Bird of Prey & the Jem'hadar fighter come out on top due to these two factions having it be their military doctrine that 90% of their fleets be these types of vessels, while the Defiant at the time was not at the point/design where it could/would be mass produced. [Meanwhile Starfleet did chug out 10,000s of Mirandas & Excelsiors].
I still think you rated the JemHadar ship too lightly on defenses, which would have bumped it up above the Klingons. We were lead to believe (at least early on) that Dominion tech was an order of magnitude greater than the Alphas. I agree the JemHadar mindset is a premium on victory and not survival, obviously. But even a very weak defense, provided advanced tech, should be considered as good as "strong" defense like the Feds. For an example, remember when Sisko and crew take the rebuilt stolen JemHadar fighter on a mission...and are attacked by Charlie Reynolds in his Centaur. The bugship took a beating didn't it? Obviously there WERE at least decent defenses
@@richjordan6461 ; I would personally not say an order of magnitude; maybe 3x or 4x at most. The Centaur is an older kit-bash ship known more for it's speed & maneuverability rather than it's weapon capabilities. Plus it is seen that Dominion War & Post-Dominion War refits & new ship classes have a significantly greater tactical & strategic ability than the ships of the "Starfleet is not a military organization" TNG era. In the latter-half of the Dominion War Jem'Hadar fighters start to go down like flies and have lost much of the sting they had just prior to the war. The Jam'Hadar fighters are still forces to be reckoned with, but only in increasing large numbers over the course of the war, numbers they more & more do not have. Probably one of the factors as to why the Dominion started it Dreadnaught program.
The federation didnt chug out any mirandas or excelciors, they allready had them built from a bygone era.
At most, they chugged out refits of their existing fleet of outdated vessels.
@@danielboatright8887 ; We I typed "chugged out" I did not mean it as 'built from scratch' but rather have modernized & combat ready, though some Mirandas & Excelsior were built rather recently to the Dominion war given that some of them have registry numbers after some of the more newer ships like some Nebulas & even some Sabers. Plus, mid-Dominion War onward they were able to hold their own quite well enough thanks to the benefits of Starfleet modularity, so I would not say they were that bygone. Still I understand the misconstruction is on my part due to particular word choices.
Extra point for the Kilngon Bird of Prey: its immunity to Breen energy dissipater weaponry saved the alliance from being wiped out after the Breen joined the Dominion. It might not be the best, or even the most powerful or capable (although it's no slouch either), but it's arguably the most important ship class in the war. Not bad at all for a ship class that was going on a century old during the Dominion War.
The breen really gaffed with that one. If i saw something that was immune to my new super weapon, it would be captured or destroyed as my new primary target.
The Romulan scout ship is like Italy in Six nations rugby. Just happy to be there! Honestly though, given we never saw it shoot, can it even be considered an attack ship? Really enjoyed this video Venom!
You beat me to it.
Good point.
I always assumed it was the Romulan equivalent of the Oberth, for two reasons -
(1) They seem to be deployed to test new technology/conduct research as we see in The Next Phase, with us never seeing them deployed in a combat role.
(2) All three times it appears it is either about to or has exploded/been destroyed.
I see the romulan scout ship as the romulans' version of the runabout
The Federation was always about quality over quantity, especially when it came to tactical ships. However, when you lose ships a lot and have to move them from place to place often, having many ships comes in handy. You might say the Defiant class was the best in battle, but the worst in war. I know the idea was to mass produce these to be semi-expendable fighters against Borg, but it never really reached that level of production.
The Hideki on the other hand, it's just like how Kira compared a Cardassian rifle to a fed one: fewer settings but you can drag it through the mud for a week and it'll still work. Cardassians had limited tech and limited resources compared to other powers so they made sure they could get the most out of every cost-effective ship.
As for Klingons, they basically privatized their war funds. With every house in a cold war with each other for centuries, attacking nearby races for resources, each house maintained their own fleet of reliable and combat ready ships. This helped them field a lot of them on short notice. Being as aggressive as they were, they were also already military oriented and fit for their offensive piloting styles.
Romulans, like the Galactic Empire in Star Wars, focused on fewer and larger ships for intimidation and cost. They had no need for a combat ship in this weight class and I'm not sure the scout should have even been included.
The Saber is the expendable class of the fed tho, and it supposedly had two frontal phaser banks similar in power to defiant's cannons. It just isn't a pure bred like the defiant
If you're comparing to the Star Wars vessels; the Cardassians could easily be compared to the Rebel Alliance given the limited ships and need to field as many without losing any (if it could be helped) while the Federation and RSE both tried to build larger vessels to intimidate lesser powers while going like the Republic and Galactic Empire, respectively, due to their different ideologies
Defiant has Plot Armor. The bug ship can fall out of orbit and still remain intact surviving both re-entry and impact into the ground.
In studying the design of the Defiant, I believed that it was designed for a Borg apocalypse. A ship that could be built anywhere (which is how the mirror Terok Nor was able to build one), take a small crew, have a lot of firepower, and was able to take a lot of punishment. This would allow the Federation to build them in large numbers to replenish Starfleet and crew them with whoever they can find and send them on mass against the Borg. An important asset when the Borg destroys your major shipyards and assimilates your major worlds.
You forgot Valiant and what it went through.
But they overbuilt it so much they failed to make it an industrial fighting machine. Easy to see why the Aquarius was designed to be weaker at a later time
The Saber class sitting back smoking a cigar. I be the true unsung hero of the war.
Well it's a little big to be a attack ship. Maybe a frigate or destroyer but I will definitely be doing a comparison there.
Is there any information on why the DS9 showrunners seemed reluctant to use the Saber and Steamrunner and Norway classes?
For the Norway class, I belive it was because it was an entirely CGI ship and the file containing the image was corrupted
@@richjordan6461 costs savings, they already had the Miranda class and excelsior class models in excess and plenty of CGs for those classes, it is also why you see no Ambassador class and they even re-used footage in fleet battles, especially the last 2 episode of the series. They had tons of galaxy but no Ambassador classes which was a older class thus would have many more than galaxy class.
@@Athrin01 this makes me wonder why DS9 bothered coming up with the Centaur class. Thanks!
You said there were only 3 Defiants. However if you watch Call to Arms when the Defiant and Rotarran had met up with the combined Klingon/Starfleet fleet you could see a good number of Defiant class ships in that fleet.
The Defiant was in RnD mothball till just before the dominion war. At the start of the war the Defiant class was still in late RnD about to start actual production. So it is impressive how quickly the class starts to get on its feet. It should also say something that when the Defiant gets blown up it is almost immediately replaced with one fresh off the asembaly line. It had this filling of take this one the crew that waiting on the ship will get the one thats comming off the line. tomorrow.
I was a little confused about this too. I assume he meant the original Defiant, the Valiant, and the Sao Paulo (Defiant II), but Message in a Bottle (Voy) had three Defiant class ships attacking the Prometheus and I think there was at least one in the fleet for Endgame, but I can't remember (although Endgame was post-war so I don't know if that was taken into account).
Here's how I would do the ranking.....
1. Benjamin Sisko's fist
2-6. bunch of relatively unimportant space ships.
Maybe you should consider the Saber class as the federation standard attack ship? It's the budget version of the Defiant but given it's specs could be built in large quantities.
I didnt vote the Defiant because is was never put in mass production like all the others. I voted the Jem' Hadar fighter because I believe it scored the most kills and was easy to produce in massive numbers.
In a close second vote would of been the Klingon Bird of prey. It pocesses a unique feature being the clocking device and it accumulated a lot of kills over its long service history.
Third choice would of been the Defiant. It not only had a clocking device but it was heavily armed with the cannons and quantum torpedoes, and it's armor.
In Voyager it appears they were as we see in the 2 that were escorting the arika when the doctor returned to the alfa quadrant. Plus we see @ least 3 in DS9 original defiant its replacement & the trainee ship i believe was the valiant. So that's @ least 6. And if you consider the book series the federation built them in the high hundreds, perhaps even more than a thousand.
How does the Klingon BOP only get 11% of the VOTE?! Cavalry tactics people!
Producers often didn't want the viewers to think Defiant was a type the Federation would resort to building in quantities, like fighters. Roddenberry probably would have whole-heartedly nixed the concept before someone even drew the first sketch! As I recall, even the Terran Resistance built like nine and built at least the first replica Defiant at Terok Nor under threat of attack, limited resources and personnel, and no experience building such a vessel.
Producers often didn't want viewers potentially getting confused by showing multiple ships identical to a hero ship. DS9 finally went back to TOS tradition in putting an established ship type represented a few times in limited numbers. We understood there wasn't a Consitution nor Galaxy for every sector.
Defiant was becoming a more common type seen and would surely have been constructed at a steady pace. Not attack ship pace, as that prodigious, even a plot point.
While a single Defiant could potentially destroy multiple attack ships in a single melee, having thousands of any light destroyer/frigate type spread across a front more than offset a class produced in the dozens, even hundreds. A more desperate Federation, given time, could have resorted to building and crewing a much more cost-effective variant (smaller defiant lookalikes) with similar capabilities and only slightly less endurance, in large numbers.
@@MiiFone1 I was about to say, apparently he never watched Voyager!
You do know the defiant also have phaser strips
It does! We saw when they attacked the Lakota
Yup she uses them a number of times in battle . Thing is her primary pulse passers cannons and quatium torps
@@jeffhallam2004 and in the mirror universe.
@@terrencejones9817 yes
They are for her blind spots, the pulse phasers can't hit.
I voted for defiant due to its fire power. But its biggest weakness it was never constructed in bulk. I knew it would be the jem harder attack ship that would win.
1. Defiant is like the tiger tank,
2. bird of prey is like the sherman tank,
3. jemhader attack ship is the t34 tank.
Classic case of quality over quantity.
We've seen phaser array advancements to the point where even smaller contemporary Starfleet ships are equipped with compact versions of the Type X. There's no reason the primary cannon array can't be fitted to the tighter, more compact hull of an even smaller, more nimble escort with shorter range and endurance than the Defiant. Two forward launchers with 32-40 torpedoes, backing up 3 cannons, 2 columnated arrays, and a microtorpedo/missile phalanx bank. Reinforced hull with armor and the ability to piggyback on a larger ship, would make a an interesting vehicle asset readily contructed in appropriate numbers and deployed to troubled sectors whereas a larger ship and crew can't be spared indefinitely.
@Snake Plisken I would think the Cardassian ship is more of a Tankette or light tank then a half track
Another important logistical consideration regarding the Dominion attack ship (and all Dominion Ships for that matter) is Ketracel-white. You could look it as a pro or a con. The Jem Hadar ONLY need the white, humanoids need food, water, sleep, etc. However, there is also no substitute for the white. If a human does not have one type of food, it could easily substitute another. The point being, if the Dominion is cut of from the white, it might be game over, so this factor really could cut either way.
yes very true although by mid-war the dominion secure contracts with the Son'a to produce the white.
"We don't see many..."
Because they're cloaked! The Romulans deploy Scouts like runabouts, they aren't the first ships on the front, unless for inconspicuous recon.
Hahaha. Great point I hadn't considered!
Honestly for the Dominion War, the Miranda-class fits the 'Attack Fighter' more than the Defiant-class.
Technically, a Miranda could be capable of handling a dozen or so fighters of its own.
in terms of stats its definitely the closest to the rest but exceeds too far in tonnage.
Or... the peregrine. The literal attack fighter.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 In terms of capabilities, Miranda in that era should be an escort Destroyer or destroyer escort. She is much more suited to keeping up with support ships and science vessels. Lantree (243m) was a supply ship. They officially called her medium cruiser, which doesn't sound right, since the 223m Saber is a light cruiser and has obviously as much volume as an Intrepid, and at least some comparable features.
If the Miranda is a fighter then its a Y-wing. And the defiant is an X-Wing.
16:17 think you meant to say Gamma Quadrant. Great vid by the way. And I agree with how they are all individually ranked.
Very impressive presentation of comparing effective attack/assault/escorts type of ships during Dominion War. Hope you’ll do the same for light cruiser, Heavy Cruiser etc.
Definitely
I do hope that the romulan scout ship will make it into wings!
maybe a little episode for a little ship though it has quite a few tricks up its sleeve.
Very interesting. While I would disagree with some of your sub category rankings, the end result is exactly with what I would have ranked them over all.
The Defiant does have regular phaser turrets in prime cannon. They are actually used on screen in the battle against the USS Lakota in the episode Paradise Lost. To be 100% sure I queued it up on Netflix to watch and there's at least two phaser turret shots coming out of the center of the the top/bottom of the ship. They even differentiate them from the Lakota's phasers with a slightly different sound effect.
Also the Mirror Defiant versus the NeghVar, which is obviously the Mirror universe, but supposedly based on Prime Universe designs
Nevermind. I made my comment before watching the video
I was going to say the same thing!
Want to start with saying that I love this and would absolutely love to see more.
On a positive note, I absolutely agree with the outcome of the vote (though I believe the Hideki is more effective than the Romulan Scout, but they are definitely both bottom tier).
As far as your method of review, I believe that you would be better off moving to a Scalar evaluation system (i.e. on a Scale of 1 to 10, how did the ship perform in the category) rather than a ranked one. This is especially important since you are distributing points and totaling their values for each, and you completely observed that so many of the vessels performed nearly on par with each other in certain fields that the ranked system could heavily weight a ships results. This is also a better method, as you can have closer rated scores and identical scores for vessels, rather than an arbitrary first place point evaluation than what is currently used.
A good example of this is in the defense category. In a scalar evaluation, obviously the Defiant class would score high here (which it did with the highest rank). However, the remaining vessels should score very low in this category, especially since they are shown on screen to be rather weak when it comes to their defense.
Just give it a mull over and let me know if that seems like a better evaluation method than what you are currently using.
Im a hopeless BoP fanboy and consider the Dominion totally over hyped, yet the battleships I like. Im ok with the Defiant and her few sister ships though, even the Sao Paulo runnin around with Defi make up on. Excellent ranking system! Great Video as always! Look forward to more.
Here We Go Boys & Girls!! And damn Venom.... this is a truly difficult question.... I mean, Defiant vs. Brel vs. BugShip?! That’s a toughy bro!
P.S. 20+ minutes of geeking out - Nirvana
Glad you didn't mind the runtime
I think I would split supportability into two different categories and add another that goes with tactical:
Fleet Support: How well can it support the fleet ranging from patrol and escort to supporting capital ships. Attack ships, by nature, are not designed to fight alone and suppose to give a fleet reach that is limited in large capital ships.
Maintenance Support: How easy to repair, how quickly they can perform maintenance checks before sending to battle, and how quickly they can be replaced. The answer, the shorter in all three makes them a reliable unit.
Logistical Support: How much support is needed to stay operational in the field, and how well can it support itself. If it needs to be given ammo after every battle, is it effective? Especially if it has to engage in several battles with little room for resupply. (And that is the reason I put this as its own category, considering most small ships can't produce their own torpedoes, and a certain faction has their soldiers on drugs. This is probably the one category I suspect the Dominion gets a 1)
Edit: Also, realize I would separate Speed and Agility by Sublight Speed and Manuverabiltiy and Faster Than Light Speeds. As ships like the Defiant are not the fastest in sunlight speeds, can certainly outrun them in FTL speeds. And considering most space tactics depend more on intercepting or outmaneuvering enemy fleets in FTL, that should be a major consideration separate from maneuverability.
Also, for cruisers and destroyers, I would probably put this in my categories:
Sublight Speed and Manuverabiltiy (not at important, but still important enough to outmaneuver your enemies and avoid traps)
Faster than Light Speeds
Firepower
Defense
Survivability/Quality: a way US DOD would ask how well it can perform missions by itself or support itself as they will be sent on solo patrol missions or scouting
Fleet Command: if in command, how good can it lead a force
Fleet Support: if part of a wing, how well can it support a fleet
Quantity
Deployability
Maintenance Support: this will be slightly different as larger ships are expected to have longer maintenance costs, for they do more for the fleet than smaller ships perform that perform a single role.
Logistical Support
As others have mentioned, I'd love to see more videos like this comparing other shio categories: destroyer, cruiser (excelsior again pls!!), battleship, etc.
Victory is life!!! Another great video
I feel like the Tiger Paradox comes down to purpose - when you ask "what was the best tank of WW2", you have to ask, best ? Best combatant in a fight? Tiger II. Best strategic asset for the winning of a war? Sherman.
That was a really great video I enjoyed it very much... could U do a video about the must effective Battleship in the Dominion War
definitely gives me another chance to talk about the hutet.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 cool I can't wait
So Dominion Battleship, Sovereign, D'deridex, Hutet and, Negh'var Class starships
That sounds like an amazing idea
@@nathanielmeade5731 exactly my plan
@@nathanielmeade5731 Yes it does
Great analysis of these ships; really lead a lot. I would like you to do one on where the federation Pereguin fighter stands with the other fighters.
@Snake Plisken sorry, I was thinking of the Dominion War where Star Fleet was hunting the Cardassian ship the Hutet. In that battle, Star Fleet fighters were deployed against Cardassian fighters which I believe Venom Media covered in an earlier video.
I'd swap out the Cardy for the Romulans for defense due to the Romulans cloaking device, and BoP for Jem Hadar for defense for the same reason. I'd also swap the Defiant for the Jem Hadar for speed and maneuverability, based mostly on straight-line speed, especially when factoring in warp speed. Firepower, quantity, and deployability are spot on. Supportability is kinda vague, so I wouldn't argue your logic.
My totals:
BoP - 21
Jem - 19
Defiant - 18
Spoonheads - 17
Ears - 15
I'd also consider giving the Defiant a bonus point for the absolutely massive gap it has in firepower over the others; arguably, the biggest single advantage any of the five has over the rest.
You did great but I think you missed one spot, which is mission capability. Which I think you lumped in with deployability.
For example while both the kligon bird of prey and Romulan scout ship are capable Scouts due to their cloaks. The way they are deployed in the theater is much different. In your own videos you have very accurately placed romulan scout ships as intelligence gathering ships which then screen their larger battlecruisers as sort of point defence escorts.
While Kligon birds of prey are used more by themselves in attacks or flanking a force while stronger ships charge up the middle. Kligons also seem to not employ their cloaks for intelligence gathering nearly as effectively as the Romulans.
an excellent point the romulan scout is modular and can be refitted for different jobs that would definitely factor in. winning a war is not just about fighting battles of course.
Love it, seen it a few times. I think as a Admiral planning a fleet the Jem'Hadar attack ship or the Klingon BoP is what you need to build a large cheap expandable fleet but if you want to fight in the war and live you want a Defiant.
And an honourable mention, the Peregrine ship. Love those things!
According to Memory Alpha, there where about 100 Defiant class "Heavy Escorts" in service during the Dominion War and the Federation was building more.
I went with the Klingon Bird of Prey. The Jem Ha'dar attack ship is on a par, they're just more suicidal. When it comes to battle, the Klingons are the masters of combat. Nice job.
Same here, the cloaking device gave it the edge over Jem Hadar for me.
i think this is almost perfectly on point. the only thing i would honestly change is I would give 5 to the bird of prey on supportabilty. only because there are so many of them and have been made for so long, there has to literally planets worth of spair parts. still thing you did this very well and was thought out thoroughly. I'd love to see more videos like this one.
using the same formular would like to see this for other class of ships during the war
I love the comparisons you do. I see a few more ship classes that I didn't know exist. But I gotta get my Star Trek-nerd on when referring to the 'Who Has The Best Attack Ship;. Regarding the weapons for the USS Defiant, The DS9 episode:'Paradise Lost' when the little ship had to fight an Excelsior-class USS Lakota, the Defiant does show it has other phaser mounts on top of the hull. Other sources show it has rear-munted phasers as well, It's one seriously armed little ship.
Nice
So quick question, would you not count the two seen in Voyager during the Prometheus Episode? Like it is not enough to bump it to a 3 point in terms of quantity, but maybe just edge out the Romulan scout ship.
I highly enjoyed this video like I have most of your other videos and I can't sight your ranking either. However, the Defiant was more or less a prototype ship and type, which is the reason behind it's "weaknesses" that said they are still there none the less. And their tactical power is impressive, in allot of ways it's similar to the Tribal class destroyers of the Royal Navy in World War II.
In canon, the Defiant has phaser strips as well as the pulse phaser cannons. You can see them in the close up pictures you posted with this video' and in certain scenes during DS-9.
Yes, when the Defiant fought the Lakota it used beam phasers, so it definitely has beam phasers.
@@borg111 looked like emitters not strips firing on screen
@Darius Greysun I never stated the Defiant had phaser strips. It had both beam and pulse phasers. The emitters that fired the beams were single phaser banks at different points along the ship. Are those the emitters you're referring to?
So I went back and watched every Star Trek episode that has ships fighting I downloaded the episodes slowed them down scene-by-scene and calculated the ship strength bass off fights scene on the show's evaluating them based off the USS defiant 32,500 pulse phaser. Based off the idea that a pulse burst is equal to a Galaxy x phaser. 65000 Tarawa is what a type X phaser d does from the Enterprise. I had a physicist I work with go over the formulas. This is what you do when you're an Analyst and a super nerdy Star Trek fan SO two pulse phaser blasts from Uss defiant are = to one type x phasor
I think you got a few things wrong about the defiant class. But I think that is because you're relying on the tech manuals instead of the show.
The Valiant blows away your support argument. It was by itself with no supply ships or Starbase for the better part of a year with no problem. Which makes sense because the defiant was chosen for long stints in the gamma quadrant by itself.
Also they never really talk about the defiant burning through fuel, more it burns through phaser banks which they can easily replicate.
The impression was that the defiant class was a bare bones, stripped down ship. That it essentially was a BIG engine with guns strapped to it and replicators to make sure it could always have spare parts to keep it running.
All in all though, I still love your work. Please keep this channel going. It's great content 👌
I feel the Maquis Raider is the ideal platform for Starfleet to build a mass-produced, modular multi-role tactical support ship. All they really have to do is increase its size 10% to 15% bigger than a bird of prey. Make it warp 9 min and update its tactical systems. A squadron of these ships was capable of taking out an Excelsior class. It kind of reminds me of a Russian Hind-D.
I will cover the maquis raider. But of course unlike the rest it wasn't purpose built and was a bit of a bodge
An interesting point. Another point is the Maquis only had outdated couriers with cobbled together weapons arrays.
We did see "raiders" in at least one Federation armada, which one number points to a length of less than a meter longer than the official length of the attack ship. If they were armed with something like Type-8 or better, full-sized torpedoes, and modern systems, they should be able to challenge anything up to a Hideki with fair chance of 1 on 1 victory.
Alternatively, they seem to do considerably more damage ramming than an attack ship. 😏
@@Euripides_Panz so the 'raiders' we see in the federation fleet are peregrine fighters 25m long which is half the size of the maquis raider they are more combat oriented and agile with a phaser cannon and 6 torpedoes (no launcher) but are easy prey for the Hideki which is 98 meters and other attack ships they are best used against larger slower ships.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 There was a fleet of ships with "Ju'Day" supposedly 68.5m, of different design than the waves of attack fighters (25m) we see in the finale and "Sacrifice of Angels." The raider was seen taking several shots from the Defiant, herself, before incinerating in "For the Uniform."
A smaller fighter version was seen in the "Preemprive Strike" fleet Ro defected to. Like the Klingon BOP, and the Jem'hadar battleship, there are at least two types of ship running around with the same appearance.
They actually did state the model was changed. The cockpit was replaced with a bridge, the wing guns were altered, hull details changed, struts added, and windows added.
@@Euripides_Panz yeah there's another version of the raider used in the pilot of voyager.
Most of the Defiant class were probably stationed at Star Bases Defending key installations.
Also on escort duty "Heavy Escort" was how Star Fleet got it into development.
By the end of the Dominion War they probably built around 100 Defiant class ships.
Really unfortunate we never saw a Wing of them fighting together.
for deployability i thought it'd be a toss up between the klingons romulans and the defiant due to their cloaking devices
You you do remember the gym hard our ship crashed into a planet and any was used again to attack the jem'hadar white facility and then crashed into another planet
You do realize that the reason you gave supportability to the Romulan Scout is the same as why you took it away from the Defiant... that it required a support vessel/base to be effective.
You correctly give the Defiant a low score in Quantity and Deployability - they are inseparable concepts, IF you are counting both.
Using both is a little iffy, though... the Cardassian vessel is next to being a garrison craft and the Defiant, as prototype anti-Borg vessel, has most of its sister ships assigned to that duty.
Given that the Romulan Scout barely fires a shot and the Cardassian vessel is a repurposed defense unit, calling them attack ships is also a bit of a stretch...
Can you do this again using the new Federation Attack ship and the Romulan if can? Thx!
Those Jem' Hadar scouts needed to go out in big numbers because the Defiant would rip through them like sledgehammers through pinates.
Defiant has phaser arrays secondary to the cannons. Seen when fighting the Lakota and heard when Dax orders phasers fired as Sisko is talking to Dukat in WotW pt2. Also aft photon launchers.
Nice comparison, like some of the insights and was very pleased to hear the tiger paradox get mentioned in the summing up at the end. I'm both a Trek fan and have an interest in history and WW2 tanks are a particular area of interest for me. Using the tank analogy, the Jem Hadar bug ship is the equivalent of the Russian T34 - good armour and weaponry, decent speed and maneuverability and mass produced in vast numbers to swarm the battlefield. The T34 being my pick for the best tank of the war in the same way you concluded the Jem Hadar ship is the best. The Defiant on the other hand is like the Tiger. On paper the better vehicle and would be expected to best any opponent in a one on one battle. However it's overengineered, takes up a lot of resources to produce and maintain and can't be produced in great enough numbers to be decisive to the war, even if the presence of one could be decisive on the smaller term of a single battle. The Klingon Bird of Prey is a bit like the Sherman. Produced in huge numbers and has a decent speed and ok armament but a little too vulnerable to enemy firepower. Continuing this line of reasoning, I think the best analogy for the Hideki class would be the Churchill tank. Slow and not particularly well armed but well armoured giving good protection to the crews and intended for a different role anyways since they were designed as support vehicles. Infantry support in the case of the Churchill, capital ship support in the case of the Hideki. Where does that leave the poor old Romulan scout ship? Probably in the category of light tanks which most powers used to some degree and quickly phased out. Intended for reconnaissance but a little too slow for that but not well armoured or armed enough to be effective in combat.
The final detail which I think is worth noting is the crew compliment of the various ships. Memory Alpha gives us.
Defiant class: ~50
Romulan Scout: 1-2
Hideki Class: 3-5
Jem'Hadar fighter: 1Vorta, 42 Jem'Hadar
Klingon Bird of Prey: 6-12
Bearing this in mind and the number of ships they lose makes the bug ship look a lot less favourable, if it wasn't for the Dominion clone facilities solving the manpower problem. Perhaps bearing the crew size in mind the Danube class runabout would be a fairer comparison to the other races ships we see here!
The defiant did in fact have a phaser turret. I know some say it doesn't, but it does. When it fought the Excelsior class ship near Earth thanks to a paranoid Admiral wanting to militarize Earth. The Defiant did use it's dorsal phaser
Defiant strong.
something takes slight damage
Five minutes later: warp core breach imminent
Cheif O'Brian: aw shit here we go again
Venom Geek sounds rather menacing but there is no better source for future documentaries anywhere else in the galaxies.
Hey, what about those Romulin drone ships piloted by a sub terrain Andorian
Rudimentary Attack ship analogy comparisons.
Defiant: America Zumwalt Destroyer.
Klingon BoP: Various British frigates from 19th century to Cold War.
Jem'Hadar Fighter: Soviet Su-76 tanks.
Cardassian Hedeki: Italian L3 tanks.
Romulan Scout: Various WW1 German U-boats.
I like the analogy. Would change th BOP to something like the American fletcher class destroyer. Quick, big punch for its size but not well armored. Great when working both Wolfpack setting of in support of the larger Capitol ships
@@davidstarcher2349 ; I see do you point. The reason why I said "Various British frigates" was because Klingon BoP has been used since before the 22nd and consist of various classes; with around 2 or 3 being used across the Dominion War in mass.
Ooof Hideki= L3 quite harsh personally i have a bit of a soft spot for the old Carro Veloce!
Agree with the ranking, I think it's more interesting how the dominion, after they got pushed back, how it effected the ships that the big 3 built afterward.
You have the most logical common sense comparisons. These make total sense. Love the WW2 tiger tank comparison to the Defiant with regards to quality. Can you do some sort of comparison between Star Trek and Star Wars? You are probably the only one who could logically do it. (With no bias)
I think this is a pretty fair ranking, the Defiant was never supposed to be a lone ship, it was supposed to be squads of them all swarming larger targets (Similar to what is seen with the Jem'Hadar Fighter and BoP), but because Starfleet couldn't get many built, Sisko's Pimp Hand had to solo-warrior it's way through the war.
In fact, I think we see how the Defiant class is *supposed* to operate in the battle during ST:VOY Message in a Bottle, when the two Defiant's and the three Prometheus sections gang up to shred a D'Deridex in frighteningly short order
I also think it showed the doctrine for the Prometheus; either walk around being big, mean and scary as one battleship-type vessel to keep Akira's company and be able to break down into three attack-ships and be able to swarm targets with Defiant's.
If Starfleet ever did an After Action report of the Dominion War, they would have to conclude two of the most effective ships in the conflict were the Bird of Prey (BOP) and the JemHadar Attack Ship. Both are extremely small craft capable of destroying capital ships many times their size. They would also have to agree, while the Defiant was effective, it’s expensive to operate and overly complex.
Starfleet has a need for a similar small, extremely fast, highly maneuverable, heavily armed craft, that can also be carried by most many SF capital ships. Instead of the Captain’s yacht, that’s rarely used, the craft ( call it a heavy armed escort) could perform multi missions.
I'd love to see a comparison of the late 23rd Century Federation Class Ships
Even though the defiant is a warship and has massive firepower for its size I always personally considered the idea behind the defiant to be a defensive one rather then an offisive one.
Why does the Bajoran Wormhole count against the Jem'Hadar fighter in the category of supportability but not deployability?
We saw 6 Defiant class sips. 3 on DS9 & 3 on Voyager!
I wonder the Federation's other attack ships match up. You know, the Saber, and the Steamrunner.
I would add the Miranda and Norway, but I consider them more heavy frigates/destroyers, as they are larger and have more combat roles than a small specified warship.
i will definitely cover them in future lists
Always thought of the Yeager as the federation's attack ship.
Good video, but now I have a question : what class ship did starfleet mass produced for the war?
There are two classes of Klingon Bird of Prey. Which one is being analyzed?
Presumably the B'Rel, I don't ever recall even seeing the K'Vort in the Prime Universe, unless you count that weird shot in "The Defector."
yeah and the K'vort was dropped in favour of the Vorcha.
I was split between the Jem Hadar attack fighter and the Bird Of Prey.
I like you brought up fleet doctrine. Klingon warriors don't have the patience to commit to sensor sweeps and the Starfleets sensors probably alert the Dominion. The enemy knowing what you know is vital information.
The scout ships on the other hand? Slowly, silently, infiltrating deep into enemy space. Passive sensors are their weapons, the D'deridex is just how they pull the trigger.
Thanks
I think we see 6 defiant class ships in all TNG era 2 in message in a bottle 3 or so in Endgame. I don’t think Starfleet mass produced the Defiant class but I don’t think there is a tiny amount of them either. I would say it’s more of every major sector has a Wolfpack of them and they get relegated to shipping lanes or border patrol no more than 40-60 defiant class ships like you said it’s a real specialty ship and crew comfort is minimal so it’s got to have a home port to spend most of the month
Would put a low end of 30 high end of around 100
@@MrGunlover12 the 30 seems alright for me but I don’t see a hundred of them it would be a bitch to crew them and find a use for them like maybe they keep them in a ship graveyard I just don’t see 100 of them. I think starfleet is 1200/1800 ships give or take a hundred or so. I don’t see the defiant being very useful in peacetime other than boarder patrol or borg defense
Could always have most of them in a ready reserve for times of need
@@MrGunlover12 maybe but I do think the defiant class comes up short on a lot of things it feels like it was starfleet commands first round for a dedicated warship and it’s impressive but there are better ship designs from the anti borg fleet project Akira comes to mind. The thing is about mothballing them is how much to refit every 10/20 years. It’s not a bad ship but it’s just to specialized to kept in service like I’d imagine Earth Space Dock having 4 of them basically just for Sol defense
Is the Hideki really an attack ship if it’s geared to be so defensive?
I love the Defiant but this is a fair assessment.
The romulan scout ship always wondered if its wasn't just a modern bird of prey or destroyer warbid is the main capital ship but a support vessel is really needed it seems the romulan front was the main focus and ds9 was a mixed alliance fleet, I read in a book a lot of old ships were given to the remans
i could definitely see that happening. as far as we know the Romulan scout or Modular Scouting Platform (M.S.P) was relatively contemporary with the d'deridex and was intended as far more than just a combat vessel.
So random and possibly stupid question. I think the defiant was awesome and is definitely a favorite of mine. I have however always been curious about the safety risks of putting the phaser cannons right on top of the the nacelle
Ah yes Tiger syndrome. A big cat is a frightening thing in the battle fronts of the second world war till you realise how few were made and how bad they were strategically and operationally the panther for example if an inner road wheel was damaged it would be hours and hours of work after recovery as for a sherman take the spare boogie off the back and a nearby supply truck in and out maybe an hour and the crew itself could do it. And when a panthers final drive breaks after and average of 150km travelled your looking at near a week where as a sharman it's entire transmission unit can be removed and replaced in a few hours. The T-34 is in a similar boat not near as reliable as most shermans but almost any issue short of a torsion bar snapping can be quickly repaired and Russia was just spitting em out at an ungodly rate. The defiant is like the panther an amazing design well ahead of its time but the amount of support and specialist skills needed ruin its strategic opportunities utterly. Sorry sisko your ship is great but far from the "best" of the dominion war a title i'd argue the B'rell has. Cheap easy to repair and there are swarms of them everywhere and the clocking device is the only reason I'd put it higher than the Dominion Fighter cause that thing is mean and just doesn't give a shit what you do to it
Best tank of WWII, was the Russian T-34.
@@nunya3163 there's is long debate on that and differences in objective and doctrines make this comparison largely mute. The Americans required a vehicle which was easy to repair and reliable enough to work after such long trips the shermans fit this bill perfectly. The Russians needed low down time and production time to field the vehicle as fast as possible and only have endurance long enough to reach the average service life of Russian vehicles at the time the crude easily produced and repaired T34 and T34-85 bit this doctrine well. The Pz4 also fits well with German doctrine.
@@volrosku.6075 the problem with the Sherman was firepower. With the low velocity 75mm gun, it was useless against tigers and panthers. Even with the high velocity 76mm gun they'd have to close to within 500m to ensure a kill against the toughest German armor. Now the British variant Sherman Firefly, with the 17 pounder gun was lethal against German armor, there just wasn't enough of them. Both the 76mm and 85mm Soviet guns proved lethal against German armor, and with their sloped armor, could be much lighter than the German, American and British tanks. They were just horrifyingly uncomfortable for the crews to operate.
I’m just a pimp hand fan
But yeah I’d love this vid giving a real view on stats and info
Some thoughts I think you missed .
The bug ship crashed on a planet and flew again with minimal repair . So it was very durable structurally. The Romulan scout had the best stealth the other races with cloak bought or stole the older versions of the romulan tec. So they should have gotten a bonus for that ( X factor ) if you will .
And although you gave a 5 to the defiant for tactical , you still seriously under rated its fire power as well as miss quoted its arms .
I believe it’s the only one with forward and aft torpedoes it has phaser strips ventral and dorsal and aft facing . And has its own support ship with a shuttle . And two different times it flew pant swapping attacks with battle ships , once in the mirror with Klingons , once in prime as the valiant against the dominion battle ship and zero evidence that any of the other fighters are faster .
Fire power of and durability of heavy destroyer , speed and maneuverability of a fighter . And has cloaking.. for effectiveness it isn’t even close any commander with take one of these for any 10 of the others ..
I appreciate the time you put into this , and the thought process attempting to be objective , I just comply disagree with your findings .
Ps I really enjoy your battle space vids .
good point about the fighter so probably very little gap between it and the Hideki if at all.
i will definitely consider some kind of X Factor category that takes in unique abilities.
i don't know about rear launchers but it definitely has to forward ones either side of the 'head' as for the phaser strips. we only see them in the mirror universe so... take that how you wish.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Your forgetting the episode Nog and Jake get rescued by the uss valiant “ which was a defiant type , just no cloak or ablative armor - commanded by RED Squad .. it was the same type of battle as the mirror battle against a big battle ship except it was the dominion battle ship . It also showed phaser strips against the Excelsor class ship it fought heading back to East during the military take over .
I hadn't considered that about the crashed JemHadar ship. Excellent point. Elsewhere I commented that (the same ship I believe) a commandeered bugship is taken by Sisko undercover and fired on by Charlie Reynolds in his Centaur. It took a beating. My point was the JemHadar defenses were better than this video gives credit. I pointed to Dominion tech being an order of magnitude greater than Alphas and perhaps that played a role in the bugship surviving a crash
As attack ships go, I tend to favor the escorts on the smaller end: the Defiant (T6 Valiant), the B'rel Bird of Prey (T6 Kor), and the T'Varo Light Warbird (T6 Malem). If I'm not flying one of those, I will be flying the larger battlecruisers (T6 Andromeda, Negh'tev, D'khellra).
He's right we do talk about tailoring but....I try to make it Trek related.
From a humble tailor....
I would call the defiant class more of a "tank" type attack ship (basically, get in close and beat the living dooky out of your opponent) everything about it is designed to facilitate this.
this is logical because the original purpose of the Defiant class was as a borg killer.
The only question I would have on defense is, wouldn't you give a bonus to the BoP and the Romulan Scout for their cloaking device? It would allow for a strategic withdrawal.
That said, I would rank as follows
1A: Jem Hadar fighter
1B: Klingon BoP
2:Defiant
3:Cardassian Hideki
4:Romulan Scout
Agreed. I definitely would have lumped the cloaking under defense and ramped up the BoP and Romulan Scout up accordingly. Not the Defiant, though, due to its other defensive capabilities keeping it on top anyway, and how the U.S.S. Defiant was the only one with a cloak (I think, did the Sao Paulo/2nd Defiant also have a cloak?).
We must remember how klingons use cloaks.
Always to get the drop on their target and never to retreat so the bonus would go into attack instead of defense.
The Defiant had standard beam phasers + the pulse phaser cannons.
I say the defiant is the tiger tank and German jet. Good but a great supply to keep going.
I think Personnel and training requirements will always be a factor in any ship performance Analysis!
Replacing the defiant With the sabre would be more even
But anyway the hideki is a strange ship, it never proves as agile as the other or hits as hard. Honestly I think it’s more of an anti fighter corvette and probably fire saturation. Something that can tank a few shots for larger ships and pull out, is Planetary defence operations it would be more of a staller while fixed defences do damage or until reinforcements arrive
saber is a little too big being more of a frigate/destroyer but i will definitely cover it in a future episode.
i agree with the hideki being more anti fighter and it makes sense given how much of a problem the Maquis were. we even see that there was a civillian model of it.
I do like the video overall i do think you miss a few things when making it there was many Defaint Class ships starfleet had start up a run on building the ships sometime after Sisko got the ship working right. There were several in the Fleet that we seen when the Defiant left Deep Space Nine at the start of the war we also see a couple of these ships when Promtheus show up in Voyager . I do agree that the class would have the less numbers but Federation ships are built to last give how old most of the Fleet is, but i do not think the Federation Fleet is as bad with fuel as you think it is.
We only see the Defiant and Sao Paolo, renamed to Defiant. The Valiant also technically counts but it was destroyed. Possibly an errant unnamed one or two escorts in the wide fkeet shots. But two Defiant-classes and an Akira went to intercept the Prometheus in Voyager, and that episode was set during the Dominion War. I still don't think they're a super-common class within Starfleet even at that point but clearly they have enough of them to spare not one but two to go bust up a rogue Tal Shier operation.
The Jem Hadar ship is the most disposal ship, it's built to be destroyed in battle much like the Jem Hadar people. They are built with short lifespans, Jem Hadar go into battle expecting to die, if they live they consider it rare luck. They can crank out so many because they can build them cheap, they need not last past the point of winning the battle. Because so many get destroyed, the new ones that get built are improved on the most. As they learn from mistakes in eariler disigns. But make no mistake, they are not built to last, or for the safety of it's crew, they are built to win battles.
I've been thinking about this...and during the show the Cardie Hideki always seemed more comparable to a Fed runabout. I think the Galor should be the ship in this list, picturing it versus a BoP
so while i do agree that initially that hideki was used in that manner its 98m and the runabout is 24m. so its far larger. and the galor is 481m well beyond the weight class of attack ships.
I always wonder with how much the dominion was able to produce just in the alpha quadrant after the wormhole closed how much forces it still has in the gamma quadrant. If the wormhole aliens never closed it to the Dominion I wonder if the allied Federation Klingon and Romulans could keep up with them. Especially if the breen still came in on the Dominion side but then again I suppose the breen wouldn't have been needed if the wormhole was kept open to the Dominion. Also I wonder why they didn't have the dominion try to upgrade cardassian weapons and ships. You'd think they would upgrade them to be better vessels instead of the cardassians keeping their own technology and such.
When Archers crew first discoverd a klingon bird of prey, its stated that it has the thickest armor they have ever seen so far. I assume klingons would not change that, so i think the defence rating for BoP should be higher.
The 22nd and 23rd century bird of prey are very different. Also armor became less viable as time went on.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 the point is...they are klingons, they even WEAR Armor on their uniform (even its mostly leather with some metal), those dudes would not give up armor on their vessels...ever heard a klingon door opening? These ships are massiv...
I'm surprised the Hideki is not on the bottom. It is really more of a heavy fighter. It is smaller compared to the other purpose built attack ships. Its good for patrol and light threats though and relieves the Galors of the more tedious duties.
You said we only see two Defiants but that’s not true. We are eight. USS Valiant, São Paulo, Defiant, 3x Unnamed Voyager Defiant class, 2x unnamed DS9 Defiant classes
Erm, prime Defiant has always had a traditional phaser, you can see it in Paradise Lost against the Lakota
I wonder if the Romulan Scout Ship (literally not an Attack Ship) was added to fudge the numbers towards a certain craft or two...
i don't know what your talking about...
I agree with the comparison to the tiger tank, but (and isn't there always,lol) many allied tankers were asked what tank they would rather be in and all of them said, tiger. I agree with that particular documentary comments that Germany would have done better to build many more panther and panther 2's than tigers. And it is good that germany F'd up with that strategies as well with others.