Move down south! It's crazy. Bibles every where, go to the car wash there's bible verses. I no longer believe in a higher power, living down here. It's part of public schools. Nobody tells you it's a cheaper because you go back in time and it is so fucking 🐌
@@zachcouch8654 politics isn’t more cultish ? 😂😂Democrats are the party of free will and free speech until … my body my choice etc etc all that shit went out the window when democratic leadership said take this vaccine
I'm Catholic and after watching The Chosen have a closer connection to the Church, not so much for the services but because the series made Jesus real and human and more relatable. I enjoy going to mass, I tend to tune out and sort of meditate but always leave feeling some what refreshed, calm and more intune with myself.
I'm Catholic too but have fallen away from religion I actually got a Koran from a friend an its alot like the first testament I have no real religion however accepting understanding reasoning an loving is the message I get from all religions peace be with you friend ❤
@@stephenmcfarlane4247 you're not a Catholic observer, but based on the first sentence it seems you culturally identify as a Catholic. Curious, but seemingly common. Some might qualify such statements by saying "I was raised a Catholic," or "I'm from a Catholic family," etc., etc. You also said you've "fallen away..." Forgive me, but that almost seems a negative phrasing. Perhaps drifted away is more neutral. I only say this to support your choice. Far be it from me to psychoanalyze or sway you one way or another, but the text here almost like you still have love for Catholicism, whatever that word means to you. Might I ask you your thoughts on the matter? In any case, might I also suggest you read up about Deism. It's a nifty paradigm to investigate spirituality, that I am not ashamed to say I subscribe to, though I am want from time to time to say Hail Maries and gesture the cross over my body when engaging in prayers. In the vein of euspherical energies or nigh animistic appraisals I even possess a golden cross, which I lay on the front of a cabinet on its side at a 30° angle (some say the holy cross should be represented in that way, as this is how Jesus bore it, or alternatively, how it was even fixed to the ground, albeit with each beam crossing at a 45° angle instead.) As stated, I am no Christian, I just believe in charms. I was baptized an Anglican and I think it is beautiful that in the eyes of some, I am blessed into a longstanding covenant with their god, but for me, spirituality is something individually understood and universally unknowable. Belief should not be foisted onto others as religion, but respected as a form of meditation granted by natural rights. Conversely, religion itself, while historically riddled with problems, mostly revolving around alienation and violence (but not isolated to them,) is still something of value to our modern society and the navigation of the human condition. Not only do I respect the scriptures as cultural and historical documents, but the presence of moral frameworks as so readily found in the various religions of our world is absolutely critical to the betterment of humankind and understanding of the philosophical Good we continually have tried to parse for these last thousands of years, if not as strict observance then merely as references and footnotes.
Ive had Mormons missionaries over my house for dinner, even after I told them i wasn’t interested in their religion. AND WE HAD A BLAST! We had a bonfire, they didnt judge me for being a pothead, and we just chilled out and talked about life. It was weird calling a teenager “Elder” though 😅
I was Mormon for a very long time. After I learned about the real history of the church I realized I was living a lie. I don't know what to believe anymore, but it seems like there should be something. I agree with them that people seem to need something bigger than they are
I'm struggling with this too, I was baptized into the church around 12 years old. I didn't grow up in the church, but a lot of my youth was in the LDS church. I've been questioning my faith for probably 3-4 years now. I believe there is something bigger than us but I'm not sure what that is.
i dont think you “need” to “believe” in anything. maybe have “confidence” in yourself and your loved ones and move on from there. the word “belief” is basically a figure of speech, it doesnt really mean anything.
@@SobeCrunkMonster what if he wants to believe that life isn't just life? What if something inside him is telling him there's something more to life. If you think about it, it doesn't make sense if we just live 80 years then die. And that's it. Maybe life goes on. Otherwise, what's the point of us being here?
I totally get the point, however there's also something called the wisdom of crowds, which is that the averaged outcome of larger groups of peoples input is usually higher quality output than that of even experts alone. This might not seem true when you look at, for example, presidential candidates. However there's two things to keep in mind here: First is that relevant information has generally been withheld for the public on purpose by various gatekeepers including the media who are generally there to manipulate public opinion and manufacture consent rather than inform voters (and continuing that tradition of corruption is the primary reason for online censorship). Second is that no matter how much one may dislike their options as well as who they see as the greater evil, it's still orders of magnitude better than being under the CCP or the like. I do believe that most of our worst problems could be solved if folks were able to talk more freely because that's how issues are raised and problems are worked through. While it's true that if you think of the average voter, half of them are dumber than that, it's also true that all of us are smarter than any of us. The emergent intelligence of the collective is almost infinitely smarter than any designated experts or authorities, especially ones who force their way to power and control by forcibly silencing or eliminating their competition and the public at large from having genuinely informed input.
quoting churchill does nothing to help your argument........ a conceited, ignorant racist, a privileged & genocidal maniac responsible for the murder of more people than hitler
I can certainly relate to Joe's friend. I was raised in the mormon religion, even served the 2 year mission. What people have to understand is that individuals that are born into mormonism grow up having their parent's and sunday school teachers crouch next to you and whisper in your ear to repeat after them and say things like "I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, I know the book of mormon is the word of god", etc etc. This is done very frequently. All the while a very negative stigma is placed on having any doubts of the church's validity, as well as a lot of fear placed on reading anything about the church that isn't published BY the church. By the time you're 12 yrs old you've been completely indoctrinated. I ended up leaving the church not too long after my 2 yr mission. I then turned to (another) culty type of group, this one dealing more with guru's and a specific type of meditation. I now try and be a lot more careful and always keep in mind how susceptible I am to these things.
@@leonardtarver149 Brigham young, racist as fuck and believed slavery to be a institution of god. Joseph Smith had 3 different versions of the first vision, also before he started this bullshit he got arrested for defrauding people before. Joseph Smith sent a fellow Mormon who was married on a mission to Europe. When that Mormon came back Joseph Smith married his wife. In fact it is recorded that Joseph Smith had at least 40 wives, 10 of those wives were already married. Joseph Smith and fanny Alger. The church has lied and white washed it's history.
Growing up Mormon had the opposite effect on my. It makes me quintuple check every claim anyone makes, because obviously there are organizations out there willing to take advantage of *millions* of people like it's just another tuesday. I was fully mormon (mission, temple marriage, kids, leadership positions in the church...), but a random weird catalyst woke me up when I was 26 and I left the church. Since then, I'm skeptical of everything and everyone. People really have to show some good faith before I trust them.
SAME. "She's super susceptible to bullshit" Pffbt I think she's just ignorant in general, then. If you want to lay claim that that's the churches fault. Eh, fine.
I would love to see Joe talk to a competent Christian apologist. He has a lot of people on who critique the religion but it would be nice to have a conversation with someone who lives and defends it.
There are all kinds of examples all over RUclips of apologists doing just this. None of them last. The apologetics are all laughable when exposed to honest conversation. Apologists HAVE to lie to make any headway. And then the conversation is over. There is NOTHING unique about Christianity that ALL the other religions don't also claim.
Joe...have you ever interviewed a practicing Mormon? I've found interviews on guests giving their opinions and I've heard you talk to excommunicated ones, but can't find one where you talk to one who is active/practicing.
As a Mormon who is aware of how ridiculous some things can sound I’ve always looked at it from the view that all most fantastical elements of religion seem ridiculous to non religious people. Even within religion, and specifically Christianity I don’t view the Joesph Smith story as any more or less crazy as the very idea that a man was nailed to a cross and rose after 3 days. It all falls down to faith at the end. The practical test I apply is to see the life outcomes of those that apply the principles taught within the religion and those who go against them, whether within or without. In that regard, religion is undefeated imho.
Sure, but within religion Mormonism is even more crazy because of its recency Like, people are willing to suspend belief for things that happened millennia ago because people knew scientifically a lot less than we do know. So for someone in the last 2 centuries to come up with a new religion with some sensational claims lol, then yeah your gonna get mocked and you'll need a coping mechanism to justify it.
As someone who became LDS after 25 years old, it was more about creating, spreading and passing down quality morals and virtues to the generations around and after me. The LDS church not only encourages people to be the best version of themselves, but provides young men and women with a rite of passage they will not be able to experience anywhere else in modern America. We have become a country of weak minded people completely out of touch with the life skills that are required to be capable individuals and this concept of a rite of passage to becoming an adult among other things in the LDS church is exactly why people throw up their hands when talking about "Mormons" because all they can say is that they don't understand.
religion is the cause of almost all major violence, slavery, and overall bad shit. Religion does often teach good morals that leads to good solid people but it also breeds ignorant, narrow-minded, and hateful people. Not mention how religion has been used to torment people, justify colonialism as gods will. Also, religion teaches people to have good morals to please god not because it is the right thing to do. All to avoid a fictional fire pit to burn in
Totally understand this and I comment with total respect to you and what you are saying. I can’t agree though. There are so many examples where Mormonism have twisted Christianity into something it just isn’t. From the 3 hierarchal heavens to believing in living breathing prophets that literally hear God. Both of these things to me completely betray the purpose of being Christian to me. Perhaps the fantastical things aren’t any more unbelievable, but the resulting belief system created is completely contradictory and incompatible with being Christian. Again, I mean no disrespect and love the fact that LDS works for you.
Being wholly rational seems impossible but humans are more rational the more we are able to deduce probability and increasingly merge it with collective intelligence through systems of communication and the quality of these systems.
If you take the emprical and atheistic point of view then it is a farce to believe human beings are capable of rational thought. As the whole universe came into being by blind, random processes by chance. Irrationality does not beget rationality. What we perceive as being rational is simply a subjective feeling.
I love Douglas’ accent, it is that British accent where you can tell he went to an affluent school and can almost picture the fancy building and the uniforms.
One of the first few cultural things we all teach our kids is Santa Claus, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and now elves on shelves. We inadvertently train our kids to believe ridiculous things when they are one or 2 years old. Then eventually they go to school and are primed to believe all manner of more and more ridiculous things.
@@Halal_Dan Originally pagan traditions but later given Christian meanings as the Christian Church spread throughout the world. This still scandalizes both believers and non believers alike.
@@Halal_Dan You must not understand. The Church didn't adopt them as they were, the Church re-defined the peoples pagan traditions so that they then had Christian meanings. This is how the Christian gospel spread around the world. Why don't you go read a book.
Make sure you're not being confused on being religious and being a Christ follower.. being a Christ follower is not a religion. Remember it is the religious people who condemned Christ.
Do you mean “Religion” as in organized religion? Following or believing in Christ is a religion: Christianity. That’s the definition of religion. I understand the sentiment of avoiding “organized religion”, since there has been a history of so many corrupt ones. But did you know that Christ actually started an organized church which is stated in the Bible and more specifically by the Apostle Paul in some of his epistles. They had a hierarchy of organized leadership with the Apostles on top. The members of the original church were commonly referred to as “saints”. Anyone that was baptized was counted among the family of saints.
@@mitch6962 it used to mean being aware of injustices in society, now it’s just a catch all phrase for the right to shit on anything they disagree with
@@mitch6962 No @mitch it's been spun to crazy college kid far left.It's all kind of funny stuff but it's a scam. All part of some manufactured political cultur war. This smell like psy ops but who knows.
Hitchens is one of the many people that had a profound impact on me growing up, in a good way. In a time when I was actively trying to search for some sort of meaning & perhaps also when I was looking for some sort of belonging with people who asked similar questions to me (atheists, agnostics, skeptics). But I also had to be conscious of not falling into the trap of idolizing people or joining some sort of "tribe"/club based out of likeminded thinking, which can of course be tempting. Groups I think most people easily can fall into. I also think that opting out from surrounding myself with likeminded people, has lead me to listen to more interesting people that I don't agree with on most subjects. Interesting people that in turn have has enriched my ways of thinking in many ways.
rip Hitchens. People just fall for civil religion as much as theistic religion. Totally without imposition. Jordan Peterson became a civil religious leader. Wokeism is a civil religon. It's not a left/right thing. Have you seen The Atheist Experience and their offshoot shows lately? Full wokeism.
@@MundaneDave I agree, im having a hard time watching axp anymore, when they say we need evidence for something or they rely on scientific data to come to a conclusion about 1 idea but when it comes to woke culture science goes out the window. Example Trans rights in sport. Men are bigger faster stronger in sport than women, there is no argument there, but they somehow try to turn it into an "everyone should be included and we are all equal" issue and try and say Trans rights are womens rights, in sport its not right, it's not fair.
@@markdwolf3198 I listened to that same response from Matt. It's insane and dodges the issue. The world has to adjust to the individual, not the other way around. The wokeism way. It's sad because atheists ALL know what it is to adjust to the world and live with yourself being outside the norm. I don't know if he's just coping, since he has a trans gf. I wish AXP would go back to what it was good at, even being allied with religious groups in the pursuit of keeping the public space neutral on religion. That's a good mission for everyone's sake. But Trump bad, so they haven't even made a single comment on the post-1/6 written agenda from the White House, including a target on atheist groups.
As soon as he mentioned the name Osho i laughed because i knew exactly what he was going to say next haha. The worst part is Osho was right, in big groups and in general then yeah we are :)
Joseph Campbell said "Only those who lack an inner drive or an outer doctrine are lost." Modern society constantly emphasizes the inner drive, but neglects the equally valid outer doctrine. I would think most people don't have an inner drive, and thus need guidance or an agreed upon set of rules to follow to set them up for a happy and fulfilling life. The abandonment of the outer doctrine has absolutely destroyed modern society. People grow up without a sense of community and clear rules to follow. People have less friends than they did 40 years ago. Suicide, divorce, and drug use have been increasing for decades as people feel disconnected and lost.
I'm curious what Joe would think of The Urantia Book. Written by celestial beings, explains everything and strictly prohibits a man organized/centralized "religion". Absolutely fascinating book.
Where can I find a burlap hoodie like that? It would be great to have an article of clothing that doubles as a sack when I need to carry my wares from the town center.
I believe if religion gives someone comfort, guidance and a sense of peace, they should believe what they want. My issue is that when people turn into extremists **EDIT** I stand by what I said, this Includes all types of beliefs, Including atheism. Don’t push your beliefs onto others, be kind, tolerant & most importantly respectful.
Same thing with atheism. If we can't talk about God outside of our homes and churches, you can't talk about your nonbelief or give your opinions in government, schools, etc. You can't live by rules for thee but not for me.
@@trans-octopusspacealien8883 tell that to Islam. Atheists don't care if you practice your religion outside your homes. They just don't have to listen to you. Go talk about your God in an Islamic country and see how how accepting they are of your choice. I have never heard of an atheist killing someone just because they believe in God. Just saying. So you're probably fine talking about your God outside
@@anthonyfernandez82 Factually and historically false. Commies in the USSR, under atheist leadership, sought to exterminate the Russian Orthodox church from the country. When the Iron Curtain fell only 500 remained opened out of 44,000+. Don't give me this bull leftist extremists who are largely atheist didn't mass genocide entire populations for being religious. It's always interesting how atheists NEVER mention the 20th century and tend to sweep it under the rug, even though it wasn't that long ago. Whether you like it or not, anti-Christian atheists turned to leftist fundamentalism to kill off the Christian West. Karl Marx, a fundie atheist, didn't hold back his hatred of Christianity. Leftism historically attracts atheists.
There is more to this than we understand. I will leave it at that for now as I can think back about times in my life things happened that now make sense.
This hit home. 3 Years out of the apostolic pentecostal church. It's so damaging. You have to relearn everything and find explanation for the spiritual and emotional experiences you had during worship prayer etc.
My meaning is being on an endless journey to understand meaning. The furthest I've gotten is the Greco-Roman classics, the Bible, 19th century philosophy, behavioral psychology and music.
Same! Born and raised Mormon, my husband and I left in 2015. I’m the very first to call bullshit. I suppose the problem now is that I don’t believe anything I hear.
I am an active member of the LDS Church. It has provided a foundation for a healthy, fulfilled life. I like to see things in an eternal perspective. You may be a complete stranger, but in my mind you are my brother/sister. I don't make it weird, but I try to treat everyone I meet as if we were old friends. I try to be loving, respectful, kind, helpful, grateful etc. I also try as best as I can to teach those values to my four children who are wonderful people. I can think back to pretty much all of my experiences in the church having positively impacted my perspective on life, family, community, work, education, etc. I don't try and push my beliefs onto anyone. I really appreciate having been born into a family who in my opinion was religious in just the right way. They taught me responsibility, forgiveness, facing consequences, the rules of life, and then set me free. I never had a curfew, entertainment restrictions, friend restrictions, etc growing up. I was taught to walk on a path that whether or not it the "correct one" in the grand scheme of things, it's nevertheless a path that has kept me from making bad choices with strong consequences, and strong enough to face any circumstance and keep my character in tact at the other end. Ive been tried in some pretty harsh ways throughout my life and I can thank my relationship with God for coming out on top in the end. Love your neighbors and be good. Have a great weekend everyone!
@Robert Gonzalez 🤣 I was parked, bored and started writing. Didn't mean for a wall of text. Whether or not anybody cares doesn't bother me. Someone may see it and get something positive out of it, some will cringe, others may scroll right passed it. Although a seemingly fruitless endeavor, writing positive things on the internet to strangers is better than trolling imo. Regardless, have a great weekend.
Wasn't your church at the center of one of the worst child abuse scandals in US history, and aren't members forced to shun apostates for leaving the faith? There are so many things that are wrong with your church, from an outside perspective. Its dubious origin from a known fraud, your deranged view of an afterlife, rules that stifle freedom of expression, all based on a religion that you have no logical reason to believe is true.
I don't think that most people will understand how important that this conversation should be to every, particularly to us Americans; and I say that as a devout Christian. Everybody should ask these questions, regardless of the outcome. I wish everyone patience in trying to learn how they're going to answer themselves and others.
One time in the early 90's my mom was driving me and my siblings across the country and our car ran out of gas on the side of the highway. Soon after a couple of Mormon missionaries pulled over in front of us. Got out and asked my mom if she needed help. Then walked back over to their car, popped the trunk and pulled a few ICE cold grape and orange sodas out then walked over to us kids in the backseat and said, "Hey, you guys want some sodas!?" Then they pulled out a full gas can and got us to the nearest gas station and filled the rest of the car up. Then they said, "God bless and take care." We couldn't believe it. Still can't to this day. It was straight out of a movie.
To me I see it this way; Where do you get your sense of worth? You either get it from God, the people or yourself. Regardless of your doctrine, you always keep going back to the source that makes you feel worthy at your lowest. Which one is up to you to decide what you desire from.
Getting your self worth from without is a primitive way to go about life. At first if you get your worth from people then you'll quickly realize how vain you become. Getting your self worth from God is a much better step in the process, but that still depends on what YOU think God thinks about you. You can never be too sure. However, if you decide that you have self worth of your own free will then your life will change for the better. I mean, this is probably the way God wants it. He doesn't want to have to hold your hand and tell you that you are loved all the time despite the world telling you otherwise. You need to embrace that belief and love yourself and your life. You need to take hold of your destiny and become the kind of person you want to be. People struggling with low self esteem need to understand that other people's opinions can get fucked and that they have the power to change their circumstances. Otherwise they will be stuck in the learned helplessness mindset for the rest of their lives. You need to believe in yourself if you are ever going to change. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when you do start to believe in yourself. If you believe that you can do anything you set your mind to then when you come up against something difficult you won't give up like most people. You will figure out a way to get it done, even if just by sheer willpower. A man who truly has free will is a force to be reckoned with.
God = your father figure, telling you what to do, Society = your mother figure, telling you you're perfect as you are and everything will be done for you. Yourself = a combination of all influences on your life and making decisions for yourself.
Most people don't need knowledge. They need structure. They need to be told what to do, what to think, because to figure all of this out is unbearable to them.
I have heard 500+ hours of Osho discourses he never claims that he is infallible and never wants you to agree or disagree with him listening to him really hit you hard to the core. It’s really changed my view of life and I am glad that I listen to him every day for past 3 years.
Thanks to documentaries and the current time 2022, you only have to do a small thing wrong and whatever you ever said, even if it's: Water is wet... nobody will believe it anymore. If people listen to what he says without thinking who says it, it might suddenly blow their mind. Lately I see more and more people posting messages etc. which I have heard Osho tell before. Whenever they hear Osho speak, they would argue, but whenever some famous person tweets something exactly the same, they'd love it. From the huge amount of videos I've seen of him, I've never heard him say anything that wouldn't make sense.
Man I really would like to see Joe get Trey Smith on his pod cast he likes ancient history and Trey's books have so much archaeology facts in them I think it would be good for Joe.
Interesting. I grew up Mormon and dropped out of it in my early 20s. As opposed to the woman Joe talked about, it's made me super skeptical about everything. All religions, Buddhism, Ayurveda, reiki, acupuncture, all manner of spirituality, etc,... I can't help but assume it's all nonsense until proven otherwise. A life of Mormonism has made my walls go up against all such things. And yeah it's great that Mormons come across as nice, but that's something they are very conscious about in order to have a good reputation in the world. If you become one of them and let that world and that culture envelop your life, you'll see a lot of cracks in that nice facade.
Yea same here. Growing up Mormon makes you realize how easy it is to fall into ridiculous belief systems. It's hard to believe anything or anyone after removing yourself from a religious system.
The thing about mormonism is that its a freemasonic sect, and very few actual mormons even know about these portions and the role of the church in the larger picture under those auspices. Joe has been using this talking point for years, and it is completely surface level. Religion is mostly a man-made construct, but do you know where my faith starts? Pyramids. Ancient knowledge. Mystery Schools. To me mormonism is a present day mystery school. Sort of like a kindergarten or a stepping stone into real spirituality. I broke away from the church at age 16, not because of a lack of faith but because of the realization that man, over time, had bastardized the Word of God.
I’d argue that being conscious of such a thing is good. “Hey I’ll try to be nice today so people don’t hate me.” 🤷♂️ I think the problem comes in if people are deceitful behind closed doors.
Yet not all religions are the same. For example, the Hinduism bashes the poor and teaches to ignore them while promoting the get rich schemes (this pre-dates contact with white Europeans). Christianity/Judaism does the opposite. There are many commandments about taking care of the poor within your own community in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. I don't consider Mormons Christians as many of their teachings and traditions contradict the Jewish roots of the bible. Their biggest contradiction is polygamy which is a literal sin to commit. Many male characters were punished greatly for disobeying God's commands on that.
That's a dumb way to look at it tyats like say I met one bad black guy therefore they are all bad 😆 Atheism takes more faith science already states you can't create something from nothing 🤷🏿♀️
Yeah but he's taking the obvious route of becoming a talking head sharing biting quips in 3 minute guest segments. It's going to dilute his intelligence as he - naturally - favours the wealth and exposure of quantity over quality.
He is saying things we heard before a milion times from the people on the right only with a gay voice and british accent so I guess that's what gives him extra points...
@@nebo2073 He's havinga one on one discussion and none of this is coming up in his books, is he not allowed to talk anymore? Why does him being gay have any point? Let me guess you are part of the tolerant left. Showing it as ever
I think the Bad Religion song 'Sorrow' encapsulates the religious 'instinct' that Murray talks about. For me, when I hear about numbers and religion, that can usually hook my interest because I've had religious experiences where numbers were central, and so the religious character of those epiphanies took on rational and ontological dimensions for me and made it real. I still love to ponder it. I'm susceptible to some bullshit, or probably more like sentimentalism or romanticism, but I like to think I'm fairly good at weeding out largescale, shepherd type bullshit. Never went for Trump for example, where bible folk sure did. But then again, I think I'm the center of the world
Douglas Murray truly seems to like Joe Rogan and enjoys talking to him, his entire demeanour is vastly different when talking to him. That comes to show what a great interviewer Joe is, but also how Douglas simply needs such type of conversations where he absolutely enjoys the company of his fellow across the table.
Joe was raised Catholic (Italian from Boston) so he’s well aware of the dark side of our religion. It would be interesting but Jordan Peterson speaks about religion better than the Pope
@@troymcclure681 Jordan Peterson isn't a professing Christian. He usually says of his faith, "I act as if God exists." I'd say he's very generous toward Christianity, but he does not claim to be a Christian and does not attend Church that I know of. As a Christian myself, I really like Jordan Peterson and agree with a lot of what he says about Christianity, but I don't think Joe has ever had on someone truly defending the Christian faith.
@@matthew7491 how do you know Jordan peterson doesn't attend church? Do you know him personally? Have you not seen his debate with Sam Harris ? I also doubt would have a episode strictly on Christianity but most of Jordan peterson episodes are him defending the Bible and why we should use it today
I'm a Catholic and thankfully I still have faith . It helps in all aspects of life. I like people who have faith who believe in things they cannot prove. The guru at end sounds like Bill Cosby.
This reminds me of an interview Thomas sowell did and he was asked by the interviewer who should we listen to if we aren't listening to the anointed. "We should listen first and foremost to our own experience. You seem to act as though there should be alternative saviors. We should stop looking for saviors. Society has not existed for thousands of years because we had a succesion of saviors."
Religion is supposed to be about the methodology of becoming one with or in union with God, not about believing in a certain set of ideas. Sadly more people are likely to gravitate towards believing in some thing versus doing the actual work.
@@Evanderj “They miss what’s being pointed at and focus on the finger” That sounds like one of the lines from the Tao Te Ching. Direct correlation or coincidence?
Had a father in law who was an auctioneer/conman, and he was very charismatic. Sometimes it was scary how easy it was for him to control individuals and groups. I always thought, twas a good thing he wasn't a religious leader or person like Hitler or it would go very badly for his victims. As it was he just ripped them off and most had a lot of money and could afford it.
For a lot of Mormons, it has the opposite effect. Many ex-Mormons become extremely cynical and and a hard time believing anything. They so burned, they have a hard time taking a new leap of faith.
I'd say it's that way for most. I think Joe's friend is probably an exception and just a susceptible person in general. Most people leave the church precisely because they're so cynical and skeptical in the first place
The battles we face are never our own, even when the 'battles' we face perseveres the loneliness of our fear.. ~ VF Luvall I think Luvall is saying Spirituality is the leadership of oneself, and equanimity is the victory over all one's battles.
It was extremely profound when Antony Flew could no longer subscribe to a wholly natural theory of creation when he assessed the findings of the Human Genome Project. In response Richard Dawkins said that Flew was old and senile. If Dawkins is the intellectual giant that many purport him to be then shouldn't he have sought Flew directly to inquire about what altered his long standing point of view? Did Dawkins not have the confidence he could bring Flew back to his senses? Flew was probably one of the most influential and wide read athiest academics of the 20th century. How catastrophic must it have been for Dawkins to see a god of his 'fall so far?'
To me, what's crazy is that there's so many people who say that the Mormons are good people, but yet they are weird...lol honestly, I think they're good people as well. I know there's a lot in Utah but the fact that they are good people and they're known amongst many, many people to be good. Kind of sparks an interest in me. I guess I got to wait to see two guys on the bike rolling around town 😆
@@jiml4987 Was he a practicing one?? I highly doubt that shii! The lds I know are good folks, I've definitely met imperfect Christians from every Church, but no crazy devout Mormons like that sicko
One of my good friends when I was a teenager in the later 90s got caught up in all that Osho nonsense, it still goes on I believe. I remember when he'd come to visit me in London after a recent trip to India and he would constantly try and get me to listen to some preachy Osho tape about meditation and our existence and whatever. I just wanted to play tekno and get out of my head.
The only suitable alternative to religion is a robust yet simple philosophy which relies heavily on holding your peers to account for their actions. Here are the virtues of my philosophy along with simple examples of each, by order of importance: 1) Vigilance - Validate good (is food still edible?) 2) Courage - Protect good (defend food from predators) 3) Modesty - Inspire good (don't over eat) 4) Productivity - Create good (grow food) 5) Progressiveness - Optimize good (learn to grow more food) 6) Generosity - Share good (teach others to grow food)
I've been saying this for a long time...society is struggling to fill the void left behind by religion. Jesus said humans have an instinctual spiritual need at Matthew 5:3 " Happy are those conscious of thier spiritual need" -Jesus
@@aronlane4664 you really believe that? Especially in The West? Lol No, the Supreme Court removed the Bible & Christian Prayer in all schools in 1962, they were removing our Christian religion & traditional roots for a long time. We have no Secular Humanism.
The cosmology offered up by modern society and science feels like a lie, because it is. It's central narrative of the big bang theory was the brain child of a Jesuit priest and is inherently limiting, yet people lack the courage and ability to think beyond it. Science should have bought us full circle back into the mystery of discovery but instead has just become another system of control through story telling, this time using the language of mathematics. "Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality." - Nikola Tesla Science has become religion, a system of control co-opted from the original vector of mans desire to investigate the mystery. But the original vector will always remain! It doesn't matter how the story is spun. You can't co-opt our desire to _know_ - belief just doesn't cut it.
Last weekend Joe is smoking a blunt talking about anti-radiation clothing this week he's contemplating religion. Gotta love the balance. Key.
Can you recommend me some rapist games?
@@0n344 lol that's how I read it at first too
Isn't weed illegal in Texas?
God Is great. Religion sucks
@@michiwonderoutdoors2282 it shouldn't be.
Politics has become more cultish, than religions.
Move down south! It's crazy. Bibles every where, go to the car wash there's bible verses. I no longer believe in a higher power, living down here. It's part of public schools. Nobody tells you it's a cheaper because you go back in time and it is so fucking 🐌
there all conmen that fool the gullible
No. Not at all.
@@zachcouch8654 wrong I win.
@@zachcouch8654 politics isn’t more cultish ? 😂😂Democrats are the party of free will and free speech until … my body my choice etc etc all that shit went out the window when democratic leadership said take this vaccine
I'm Catholic and after watching The Chosen have a closer connection to the Church, not so much for the services but because the series made Jesus real and human and more relatable. I enjoy going to mass, I tend to tune out and sort of meditate but always leave feeling some what refreshed, calm and more intune with myself.
I'm Catholic too but have fallen away from religion I actually got a Koran from a friend an its alot like the first testament I have no real religion however accepting understanding reasoning an loving is the message I get from all religions peace be with you friend ❤
Have you ever seen Dr. Hanbermas videos on the proof of the resurrection? Mind blowing stuff
Should become Muslim. Makes more sense.
@@stephenmcfarlane4247 you're not a Catholic observer, but based on the first sentence it seems you culturally identify as a Catholic. Curious, but seemingly common. Some might qualify such statements by saying "I was raised a Catholic," or "I'm from a Catholic family," etc., etc.
You also said you've "fallen away..." Forgive me, but that almost seems a negative phrasing. Perhaps drifted away is more neutral. I only say this to support your choice.
Far be it from me to psychoanalyze or sway you one way or another, but the text here almost like you still have love for Catholicism, whatever that word means to you. Might I ask you your thoughts on the matter?
In any case, might I also suggest you read up about Deism. It's a nifty paradigm to investigate spirituality, that I am not ashamed to say I subscribe to, though I am want from time to time to say Hail Maries and gesture the cross over my body when engaging in prayers. In the vein of euspherical energies or nigh animistic appraisals I even possess a golden cross, which I lay on the front of a cabinet on its side at a 30° angle (some say the holy cross should be represented in that way, as this is how Jesus bore it, or alternatively, how it was even fixed to the ground, albeit with each beam crossing at a 45° angle instead.) As stated, I am no Christian, I just believe in charms. I was baptized an Anglican and I think it is beautiful that in the eyes of some, I am blessed into a longstanding covenant with their god, but for me, spirituality is something individually understood and universally unknowable. Belief should not be foisted onto others as religion, but respected as a form of meditation granted by natural rights. Conversely, religion itself, while historically riddled with problems, mostly revolving around alienation and violence (but not isolated to them,) is still something of value to our modern society and the navigation of the human condition. Not only do I respect the scriptures as cultural and historical documents, but the presence of moral frameworks as so readily found in the various religions of our world is absolutely critical to the betterment of humankind and understanding of the philosophical Good we continually have tried to parse for these last thousands of years, if not as strict observance then merely as references and footnotes.
@@katovomkozies
There isn’t a single shred of evidence to support the claim of a resurrection. It’s a story that was created MUCH later.
Ive had Mormons missionaries over my house for dinner, even after I told them i wasn’t interested in their religion. AND WE HAD A BLAST! We had a bonfire, they didnt judge me for being a pothead, and we just chilled out and talked about life. It was weird calling a teenager “Elder” though 😅
Jehovah Witnesses had that similar attitude towards me
elder Timmy
Why did you call him Elder if you were not part of the church?
@@mexicanspec mormon pronouns
@@mexicanspec they would introduce themselves as elder "last name". Not usually giving their first name unless asked.
Politics right now is the secular religion. Complete with moral framework sins
and excommunication
Politics is a cult right now.
Unless you decide otherwise...
yes and the universities are the churches, with the professors the priests.
They even have tax exemption.
I see why you would say that. I tend to think most people, at least where I am (Ireland ) don’t view politics as quite this important.
No, consumption is the altar.
i ended up moving to a mormon neighbourhood largely due to the lack of crime
Just sucks there’s no coffee around.
Violent crime crime anyway. Aside from the ones committed behind closed doors.
You mean aside from the child molestation and incest?
Rick and roll is satan u would never move their lol
@@zozoartstudio4727
They can take certain stimulants now like caffeine and maybe nicotine, I could be wrong about the nicotine
I was Mormon for a very long time. After I learned about the real history of the church I realized I was living a lie. I don't know what to believe anymore, but it seems like there should be something. I agree with them that people seem to need something bigger than they are
Something wants life to exist, despite all odds
I'm struggling with this too, I was baptized into the church around 12 years old. I didn't grow up in the church, but a lot of my youth was in the LDS church. I've been questioning my faith for probably 3-4 years now. I believe there is something bigger than us but I'm not sure what that is.
i dont think you “need” to “believe” in anything. maybe have “confidence” in yourself and your loved ones and move on from there. the word “belief” is basically a figure of speech, it doesnt really mean anything.
You’ll never be happy if perfection is the premise you rely upon.
@@SobeCrunkMonster what if he wants to believe that life isn't just life? What if something inside him is telling him there's something more to life. If you think about it, it doesn't make sense if we just live 80 years then die. And that's it. Maybe life goes on. Otherwise, what's the point of us being here?
I’ve just discovered this great soul - sending Love Douglas. We need more of you ❤️
Following on from Osho’s quote, Churchill once said ‘The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.’
Really good comment 👍🏼
Does that upset you? That the hoi polloi get a vote? Perhaps it should be people just like you who gets to vote, oh smart superior one?
I totally get the point, however there's also something called the wisdom of crowds, which is that the averaged outcome of larger groups of peoples input is usually higher quality output than that of even experts alone.
This might not seem true when you look at, for example, presidential candidates. However there's two things to keep in mind here:
First is that relevant information has generally been withheld for the public on purpose by various gatekeepers including the media who are generally there to manipulate public opinion and manufacture consent rather than inform voters (and continuing that tradition of corruption is the primary reason for online censorship).
Second is that no matter how much one may dislike their options as well as who they see as the greater evil, it's still orders of magnitude better than being under the CCP or the like.
I do believe that most of our worst problems could be solved if folks were able to talk more freely because that's how issues are raised and problems are worked through.
While it's true that if you think of the average voter, half of them are dumber than that, it's also true that all of us are smarter than any of us. The emergent intelligence of the collective is almost infinitely smarter than any designated experts or authorities, especially ones who force their way to power and control by forcibly silencing or eliminating their competition and the public at large from having genuinely informed input.
Facts
quoting churchill does nothing to help your argument........ a conceited, ignorant racist, a privileged & genocidal maniac responsible for the murder of more people than hitler
Douglas Murray ! I love this guy! He’s extremely intelligent.
Hes a clown
I can certainly relate to Joe's friend. I was raised in the mormon religion, even served the 2 year mission. What people have to understand is that individuals that are born into mormonism grow up having their parent's and sunday school teachers crouch next to you and whisper in your ear to repeat after them and say things like "I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, I know the book of mormon is the word of god", etc etc. This is done very frequently. All the while a very negative stigma is placed on having any doubts of the church's validity, as well as a lot of fear placed on reading anything about the church that isn't published BY the church. By the time you're 12 yrs old you've been completely indoctrinated. I ended up leaving the church not too long after my 2 yr mission. I then turned to (another) culty type of group, this one dealing more with guru's and a specific type of meditation. I now try and be a lot more careful and always keep in mind how susceptible I am to these things.
I am Mormon and have respect for Joe for respecting our religion even though he thinks the doctrine is ridiculous. You’re the man Joe!
Ditto to everything you just said Isaac. I wonder if Joe and Douglas know that they are both beloved by many Later-Day Saints.
In LDS and black actually. served a mission. I couldn’t find anything that has been non sense and any doctrine
@@leonardtarver149 well that’s an L
Just read what Jesus said very interesting remove the miracles and claims of the writers and you find amazing beauty
@@leonardtarver149 Brigham young, racist as fuck and believed slavery to be a institution of god. Joseph Smith had 3 different versions of the first vision, also before he started this bullshit he got arrested for defrauding people before.
Joseph Smith sent a fellow Mormon who was married on a mission to Europe. When that Mormon came back Joseph Smith married his wife. In fact it is recorded that Joseph Smith had at least 40 wives, 10 of those wives were already married.
Joseph Smith and fanny Alger.
The church has lied and white washed it's history.
Please have him again about current events hes so great! Bought his book just a great thinker and journalist
Growing up Mormon had the opposite effect on my. It makes me quintuple check every claim anyone makes, because obviously there are organizations out there willing to take advantage of *millions* of people like it's just another tuesday.
I was fully mormon (mission, temple marriage, kids, leadership positions in the church...), but a random weird catalyst woke me up when I was 26 and I left the church.
Since then, I'm skeptical of everything and everyone. People really have to show some good faith before I trust them.
SAME. "She's super susceptible to bullshit" Pffbt I think she's just ignorant in general, then. If you want to lay claim that that's the churches fault. Eh, fine.
Same. Woke up in 2019 at 28. Skeptical about everything now.
Same here, left Jehovah's witness' religion and now am skeptical about most things
I thought the same thing. I left the church in 2015. I am NOT susceptible to anything. I question everything. I am the first to call bullshit.
That's more my experience as well, although I wasn't Mormon.
Very interesting conversation!
I'll be on Spotify for the full episode
I would love to see Joe talk to a competent Christian apologist. He has a lot of people on who critique the religion but it would be nice to have a conversation with someone who lives and defends it.
Have been saying that forever. He creates an echo chamber with his views. I love Joe, but he is very narrow in those regards.
Shut up
Fact > fiction, no point in arguing what's obvious
There are all kinds of examples all over RUclips of apologists doing just this. None of them last. The apologetics are all laughable when exposed to honest conversation. Apologists HAVE to lie to make any headway. And then the conversation is over. There is NOTHING unique about Christianity that ALL the other religions don't also claim.
Douglas Wilson would take everyone to school.
Joe...have you ever interviewed a practicing Mormon? I've found interviews on guests giving their opinions and I've heard you talk to excommunicated ones, but can't find one where you talk to one who is active/practicing.
This would make sense if you wanted to know what it was really like.
Joe Rogan and Douglas Murray are both national treasures.
As a Mormon who is aware of how ridiculous some things can sound I’ve always looked at it from the view that all most fantastical elements of religion seem ridiculous to non religious people. Even within religion, and specifically Christianity I don’t view the Joesph Smith story as any more or less crazy as the very idea that a man was nailed to a cross and rose after 3 days. It all falls down to faith at the end.
The practical test I apply is to see the life outcomes of those that apply the principles taught within the religion and those who go against them, whether within or without.
In that regard, religion is undefeated imho.
Sure, but within religion Mormonism is even more crazy because of its recency
Like, people are willing to suspend belief for things that happened millennia ago because people knew scientifically a lot less than we do know. So for someone in the last 2 centuries to come up with a new religion with some sensational claims lol, then yeah your gonna get mocked and you'll need a coping mechanism to justify it.
You’re in a cult, I grew up in it btw
As someone who became LDS after 25 years old, it was more about creating, spreading and passing down quality morals and virtues to the generations around and after me. The LDS church not only encourages people to be the best version of themselves, but provides young men and women with a rite of passage they will not be able to experience anywhere else in modern America. We have become a country of weak minded people completely out of touch with the life skills that are required to be capable individuals and this concept of a rite of passage to becoming an adult among other things in the LDS church is exactly why people throw up their hands when talking about "Mormons" because all they can say is that they don't understand.
religion is the cause of almost all major violence, slavery, and overall bad shit. Religion does often teach good morals that leads to good solid people but it also breeds ignorant, narrow-minded, and hateful people. Not mention how religion has been used to torment people, justify colonialism as gods will. Also, religion teaches people to have good morals to please god not because it is the right thing to do. All to avoid a fictional fire pit to burn in
Totally understand this and I comment with total respect to you and what you are saying.
I can’t agree though. There are so many examples where Mormonism have twisted Christianity into something it just isn’t. From the 3 hierarchal heavens to believing in living breathing prophets that literally hear God.
Both of these things to me completely betray the purpose of being Christian to me. Perhaps the fantastical things aren’t any more unbelievable, but the resulting belief system created is completely contradictory and incompatible with being Christian.
Again, I mean no disrespect and love the fact that LDS works for you.
Never enough Douglas Murray on RUclips.
... excellent guest
He's a hack...
A bloodthirsty neocon bigot, too.
@@jl8410 A grifter. The next Jordan Peterson. Regurgitating ideas that are thousands of years old.
@@jl8410 Never comes up with any solutions for the problems he brings up.
I sincerely doubt the people who have commented here have the authority over knowledge enough to actually make that call about Mr. Murray
People want say "think rationally," but who on earth can truly be rational and unbiased
Good point bc I don't think anyone is completely rational and unbiased but the point is to ACTIVELY question your bias and your own motives etc.
Being wholly rational seems impossible but humans are more rational the more we are able to deduce probability and increasingly merge it with collective intelligence through systems of communication and the quality of these systems.
If you take the emprical and atheistic point of view then it is a farce to believe human beings are capable of rational thought. As the whole universe came into being by blind, random processes by chance. Irrationality does not beget rationality. What we perceive as being rational is simply a subjective feeling.
It's the effort that matters. A goal to achieve. As opposed to looking for easy answers.
I love Douglas’ accent, it is that British accent where you can tell he went to an affluent school and can almost picture the fancy building and the uniforms.
He is mainly state educated but won a scholarship to Eton for his final year. Maybe that's where he got the accent
Douglas Murray went to Oxford university Magdalen(pronounced "Maudlin") College - after Eton. He graduated with a degree in English.
One of the first few cultural things we all teach our kids is Santa Claus, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and now elves on shelves. We inadvertently train our kids to believe ridiculous things when they are one or 2 years old. Then eventually they go to school and are primed to believe all manner of more and more ridiculous things.
Those are all pagan traditions, not from any Abrahamic faith
@@Halal_Dan Originally pagan traditions but later given Christian meanings as the Christian Church spread throughout the world. This still scandalizes both believers and non believers alike.
Speak for yourself. I damn sure don't do any of that. I tell them exactly what it is: a potentially fun make-believe tradition.
@@ToothTwister77 There's nothing virtuous about adopting pagan traditions.
@@Halal_Dan You must not understand. The Church didn't adopt them as they were, the Church re-defined the peoples pagan traditions so that they then had Christian meanings. This is how the Christian gospel spread around the world. Why don't you go read a book.
Most of the Atheist community haven't come to terms with the fact that Morality is at the core subjective.
I don't think you've come to terms with the fact that you're illiterate.
Atheists recognise that more than the religious. It's the religious who claim there exists an objective morality defined by God.
John Lennox's debates with Hitchens and Dawkins are incredible. It would be spectacular if he had John Lennox on.
Lennox is a genius
Sure it will be spectacular if you're not looking for sense.
@@tomben6180 No he’s just an intelligent religious zealot. Like all apologists everything he says is just assertion without evidence.
@@SuperEdge67 Have you googled the definition of “zealot”?
If you could die from irony you’d be well dead here.
@@SuperEdge67 HURR DURR DERP
It’s interesting how the further you get from religion the more you end up trying to replicate it
This is true, it's like the belief in something bigger than us is innate, it's ingrained in us.
@@mollynash2597 ya its called “people used to look at the stars and realized they are a tiny fraction of what exists”
Same
Great podcast! So true as well. So scary and sad where we are heading
You should have known that from the past, my brother.
Make sure you're not being confused on being religious and being a Christ follower.. being a Christ follower is not a religion. Remember it is the religious people who condemned Christ.
Fact
Sounds like the Tolstoy I was reading the other day.
@@Frankybeanselevators Leo Tolstoy? I've heard of him but never had his book if that's what you're talking about.
Do you mean “Religion” as in organized religion? Following or believing in Christ is a religion: Christianity. That’s the definition of religion. I understand the sentiment of avoiding “organized religion”, since there has been a history of so many corrupt ones. But did you know that Christ actually started an organized church which is stated in the Bible and more specifically by the Apostle Paul in some of his epistles. They had a hierarchy of organized leadership with the Apostles on top. The members of the original church were commonly referred to as “saints”. Anyone that was baptized was counted among the family of saints.
The term "woke" has been socially engineered. It changed in the last couple of years.
I thought it meant the same thing then as now.
@@mitch6962 it used to mean being aware of injustices in society, now it’s just a catch all phrase for the right to shit on anything they disagree with
@@coreysheldon4332 I think you're just seeing the full manifestation of what it always was.
@@mitch6962 No @mitch it's been spun to crazy college kid far left.It's all kind of funny stuff but it's a scam. All part of some manufactured political cultur war. This smell like psy ops but who knows.
@Poprocks prove me wrong.
I'd love for Joe to get a real Christian on to get a real representation of what it means to be one.
"Atheism+" ought to be called "+Atheism" instead, as they just happen to also be atheist. Their primary views are clearly woke, not atheist.
Hitchens is one of the many people that had a profound impact on me growing up, in a good way. In a time when I was actively trying to search for some sort of meaning & perhaps also when I was looking for some sort of belonging with people who asked similar questions to me (atheists, agnostics, skeptics). But I also had to be conscious of not falling into the trap of idolizing people or joining some sort of "tribe"/club based out of likeminded thinking, which can of course be tempting. Groups I think most people easily can fall into.
I also think that opting out from surrounding myself with likeminded people, has lead me to listen to more interesting people that I don't agree with on most subjects. Interesting people that in turn have has enriched my ways of thinking in many ways.
rip Hitchens. People just fall for civil religion as much as theistic religion. Totally without imposition. Jordan Peterson became a civil religious leader. Wokeism is a civil religon. It's not a left/right thing. Have you seen The Atheist Experience and their offshoot shows lately? Full wokeism.
Yeah RIP hitchens. God sent him home in the most ironic way ever tho. atheist debater who gets throat and tongue cancer.
@@underconstruction3083 I’m a Christian and just think he smoked too much.
@@MundaneDave I agree, im having a hard time watching axp anymore, when they say we need evidence for something or they rely on scientific data to come to a conclusion about 1 idea but when it comes to woke culture science goes out the window. Example Trans rights in sport. Men are bigger faster stronger in sport than women, there is no argument there, but they somehow try to turn it into an "everyone should be included and we are all equal" issue and try and say Trans rights are womens rights, in sport its not right, it's not fair.
@@markdwolf3198 I listened to that same response from Matt. It's insane and dodges the issue. The world has to adjust to the individual, not the other way around. The wokeism way. It's sad because atheists ALL know what it is to adjust to the world and live with yourself being outside the norm. I don't know if he's just coping, since he has a trans gf.
I wish AXP would go back to what it was good at, even being allied with religious groups in the pursuit of keeping the public space neutral on religion. That's a good mission for everyone's sake. But Trump bad, so they haven't even made a single comment on the post-1/6 written agenda from the White House, including a target on atheist groups.
Thanks Joe D.Murray needs to be out there as much as humanly possible!
@NBA 🤣
I've never heard Douglas belly-laugh before. I love these two.
Perfect Friday surprise listening to these two.
Social Justice/Intersectionality is the new religion.
As soon as he mentioned the name Osho i laughed because i knew exactly what he was going to say next haha. The worst part is Osho was right, in big groups and in general then yeah we are :)
Wild Wild Country was an insane documentary 😅
Osho spoke truth more than any politician alive.
Reminds me of the film The Master, one of my absolute favorite films of all time
Joseph Campbell said "Only those who lack an inner drive or an outer doctrine are lost." Modern society constantly emphasizes the inner drive, but neglects the equally valid outer doctrine. I would think most people don't have an inner drive, and thus need guidance or an agreed upon set of rules to follow to set them up for a happy and fulfilling life.
The abandonment of the outer doctrine has absolutely destroyed modern society. People grow up without a sense of community and clear rules to follow. People have less friends than they did 40 years ago. Suicide, divorce, and drug use have been increasing for decades as people feel disconnected and lost.
I like this. Thanks for sharing.
I'm curious what Joe would think of The Urantia Book. Written by celestial beings, explains everything and strictly prohibits a man organized/centralized "religion". Absolutely fascinating book.
Wow, I thought I was the only one who remembers the book.
Douglas is always fascinating to listen to
Always searching for what we already have, getting hooked on someone's brand along the way.
Where can I find a burlap hoodie like that? It would be great to have an article of clothing that doubles as a sack when I need to carry my wares from the town center.
I believe if religion gives someone comfort, guidance and a sense of peace, they should believe what they want. My issue is that when people turn into extremists
**EDIT**
I stand by what I said, this Includes all types of beliefs, Including atheism.
Don’t push your beliefs onto others, be kind, tolerant & most importantly respectful.
Ppl turn into extremists and f*** kids 🙅🏾
Same thing with atheism. If we can't talk about God outside of our homes and churches, you can't talk about your nonbelief or give your opinions in government, schools, etc. You can't live by rules for thee but not for me.
@@trans-octopusspacealien8883 tell that to Islam. Atheists don't care if you practice your religion outside your homes. They just don't have to listen to you. Go talk about your God in an Islamic country and see how how accepting they are of your choice.
I have never heard of an atheist killing someone just because they believe in God. Just saying. So you're probably fine talking about your God outside
@@anthonyfernandez82 Factually and historically false. Commies in the USSR, under atheist leadership, sought to exterminate the Russian Orthodox church from the country. When the Iron Curtain fell only 500 remained opened out of 44,000+. Don't give me this bull leftist extremists who are largely atheist didn't mass genocide entire populations for being religious. It's always interesting how atheists NEVER mention the 20th century and tend to sweep it under the rug, even though it wasn't that long ago. Whether you like it or not, anti-Christian atheists turned to leftist fundamentalism to kill off the Christian West. Karl Marx, a fundie atheist, didn't hold back his hatred of Christianity. Leftism historically attracts atheists.
But is it possible that extremists find comfort, guidance and peace in their beliefs? I think so. You can't have it both ways.
Joe Rogan and Christopher Hitchen would have been great
this seems like a really good one!!.. almost well enough to make me download spotify 😂
There is more to this than we understand. I will leave it at that for now as I can think back about times in my life things happened that now make sense.
Let’s talk about the etymology of the word religion. Doesn’t it simply mean to bind into agreement practically?
This hit home. 3 Years out of the apostolic pentecostal church. It's so damaging. You have to relearn everything and find explanation for the spiritual and emotional experiences you had during worship prayer etc.
Good luck with your journey back to reality!
@@kshepard71 thanks broskii! Life's kickass
Zack but what do you attribute to those experiences???
You can still be a Christian and not be in a fringe sect possessed by emotion. I only say this is case you abandoned Christianity altogether.
My meaning is being on an endless journey to understand meaning. The furthest I've gotten is the Greco-Roman classics, the Bible, 19th century philosophy, behavioral psychology and music.
Need entire episodes on RUclips again
I'm the exact opposite. I grew up Mormon, and I have a low tolerance for bullshit.
Same! Born and raised Mormon, my husband and I left in 2015. I’m the very first to call bullshit. I suppose the problem now is that I don’t believe anything I hear.
Same.
I am an active member of the LDS Church. It has provided a foundation for a healthy, fulfilled life. I like to see things in an eternal perspective. You may be a complete stranger, but in my mind you are my brother/sister. I don't make it weird, but I try to treat everyone I meet as if we were old friends. I try to be loving, respectful, kind, helpful, grateful etc. I also try as best as I can to teach those values to my four children who are wonderful people. I can think back to pretty much all of my experiences in the church having positively impacted my perspective on life, family, community, work, education, etc. I don't try and push my beliefs onto anyone. I really appreciate having been born into a family who in my opinion was religious in just the right way. They taught me responsibility, forgiveness, facing consequences, the rules of life, and then set me free. I never had a curfew, entertainment restrictions, friend restrictions, etc growing up. I was taught to walk on a path that whether or not it the "correct one" in the grand scheme of things, it's nevertheless a path that has kept me from making bad choices with strong consequences, and strong enough to face any circumstance and keep my character in tact at the other end. Ive been tried in some pretty harsh ways throughout my life and I can thank my relationship with God for coming out on top in the end. Love your neighbors and be good. Have a great weekend everyone!
@Robert Gonzalez live long enough to be exposed to hoe shitty people can be and you’ll appreciate mormons and othe actively moral/religious people
@Robert Gonzalez 🤣 I was parked, bored and started writing. Didn't mean for a wall of text. Whether or not anybody cares doesn't bother me. Someone may see it and get something positive out of it, some will cringe, others may scroll right passed it. Although a seemingly fruitless endeavor, writing positive things on the internet to strangers is better than trolling imo. Regardless, have a great weekend.
You can live that same life and be that same person without believing in fairy tales.
@@ACT1ON_JACKSON but i think some people just have an easier time doing that if they have a structured support system
Wasn't your church at the center of one of the worst child abuse scandals in US history, and aren't members forced to shun apostates for leaving the faith?
There are so many things that are wrong with your church, from an outside perspective. Its dubious origin from a known fraud, your deranged view of an afterlife, rules that stifle freedom of expression, all based on a religion that you have no logical reason to believe is true.
I don't think that most people will understand how important that this conversation should be to every, particularly to us Americans; and I say that as a devout Christian. Everybody should ask these questions, regardless of the outcome. I wish everyone patience in trying to learn how they're going to answer themselves and others.
One time in the early 90's my mom was driving me and my siblings across the country and our car ran out of gas on the side of the highway. Soon after a couple of Mormon missionaries pulled over in front of us. Got out and asked my mom if she needed help. Then walked back over to their car, popped the trunk and pulled a few ICE cold grape and orange sodas out then walked over to us kids in the backseat and said, "Hey, you guys want some sodas!?" Then they pulled out a full gas can and got us to the nearest gas station and filled the rest of the car up. Then they said, "God bless and take care." We couldn't believe it. Still can't to this day. It was straight out of a movie.
the fit on Murray's shirt is righteous
To me I see it this way; Where do you get your sense of worth? You either get it from God, the people or yourself. Regardless of your doctrine, you always keep going back to the source that makes you feel worthy at your lowest. Which one is up to you to decide what you desire from.
It's up too you what you choose but in the end you desire truth.
Getting your self worth from without is a primitive way to go about life. At first if you get your worth from people then you'll quickly realize how vain you become. Getting your self worth from God is a much better step in the process, but that still depends on what YOU think God thinks about you. You can never be too sure. However, if you decide that you have self worth of your own free will then your life will change for the better. I mean, this is probably the way God wants it. He doesn't want to have to hold your hand and tell you that you are loved all the time despite the world telling you otherwise. You need to embrace that belief and love yourself and your life. You need to take hold of your destiny and become the kind of person you want to be. People struggling with low self esteem need to understand that other people's opinions can get fucked and that they have the power to change their circumstances. Otherwise they will be stuck in the learned helplessness mindset for the rest of their lives. You need to believe in yourself if you are ever going to change. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when you do start to believe in yourself. If you believe that you can do anything you set your mind to then when you come up against something difficult you won't give up like most people. You will figure out a way to get it done, even if just by sheer willpower. A man who truly has free will is a force to be reckoned with.
@@potapotapotapotapotapota There is no scientific evidence for god, you are just so desperate to believe in order to cope.
God = your father figure, telling you what to do,
Society = your mother figure, telling you you're perfect as you are and everything will be done for you.
Yourself = a combination of all influences on your life and making decisions for yourself.
Sense of worth is inflated from your primitive reward system. It’s why we practice religion in the first place.
You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You.
- St Augustine
Very deep insight. Honest reflection on the human condition.
“Nostalgia for the absolute.”
It makes sense. It’s Nostalgia for a simpler world, where right/wrong is clearly stated, & not much gray exists.
Except lots of the things that they say are wrong, aren't wrong at all.
2015 and prior
“Men become civilized not in proportion to their willingness to believe but in willing proportion in their readiness to doubt.”
- H L Mencken
Most people don't need knowledge. They need structure. They need to be told what to do, what to think, because to figure all of this out is unbearable to them.
Douglas is an amazing man!!
I have heard 500+ hours of Osho discourses he never claims that he is infallible and never wants you to agree or disagree with him listening to him really hit you hard to the core. It’s really changed my view of life and I am glad that I listen to him every day for past 3 years.
Thanks to documentaries and the current time 2022, you only have to do a small thing wrong and whatever you ever said, even if it's: Water is wet... nobody will believe it anymore.
If people listen to what he says without thinking who says it, it might suddenly blow their mind. Lately I see more and more people posting messages etc. which I have heard Osho tell before. Whenever they hear Osho speak, they would argue, but whenever some famous person tweets something exactly the same, they'd love it.
From the huge amount of videos I've seen of him, I've never heard him say anything that wouldn't make sense.
Man I really would like to see Joe get Trey Smith on his pod cast he likes ancient history and Trey's books have so much archaeology facts in them I think it would be good for Joe.
TRUTHruclips.net/video/_MFG2Bns6aI/видео.html 😱
@Free Thinking Fact Checker he’s not speaking on who trey is as a person. He’s speaking on the Archaeological facts proven through the Bible.
@@JediNiyte mind blowing isn’t it?
@@_-_W_-_ Such as?
I love Trey. He was getting millions of views before they shadowbanned him.
Joe you should certainly have Doug Wilson on your channel… I think you would have such a great convo
YES! MORE DOUGLAS! THANK YOU!
Douglas has always been one of favorite authors on these political and social subjects
Interesting. I grew up Mormon and dropped out of it in my early 20s. As opposed to the woman Joe talked about, it's made me super skeptical about everything. All religions, Buddhism, Ayurveda, reiki, acupuncture, all manner of spirituality, etc,... I can't help but assume it's all nonsense until proven otherwise. A life of Mormonism has made my walls go up against all such things.
And yeah it's great that Mormons come across as nice, but that's something they are very conscious about in order to have a good reputation in the world. If you become one of them and let that world and that culture envelop your life, you'll see a lot of cracks in that nice facade.
Yea same here. Growing up Mormon makes you realize how easy it is to fall into ridiculous belief systems. It's hard to believe anything or anyone after removing yourself from a religious system.
The thing about mormonism is that its a freemasonic sect, and very few actual mormons even know about these portions and the role of the church in the larger picture under those auspices. Joe has been using this talking point for years, and it is completely surface level. Religion is mostly a man-made construct, but do you know where my faith starts? Pyramids. Ancient knowledge. Mystery Schools. To me mormonism is a present day mystery school. Sort of like a kindergarten or a stepping stone into real spirituality. I broke away from the church at age 16, not because of a lack of faith but because of the realization that man, over time, had bastardized the Word of God.
I’d argue that being conscious of such a thing is good. “Hey I’ll try to be nice today so people don’t hate me.” 🤷♂️ I think the problem comes in if people are deceitful behind closed doors.
Yet not all religions are the same. For example, the Hinduism bashes the poor and teaches to ignore them while promoting the get rich schemes (this pre-dates contact with white Europeans). Christianity/Judaism does the opposite. There are many commandments about taking care of the poor within your own community in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. I don't consider Mormons Christians as many of their teachings and traditions contradict the Jewish roots of the bible. Their biggest contradiction is polygamy which is a literal sin to commit. Many male characters were punished greatly for disobeying God's commands on that.
That's a dumb way to look at it tyats like say I met one bad black guy therefore they are all bad 😆
Atheism takes more faith science already states you can't create something from nothing 🤷🏿♀️
Murray is an insanely smart guy. Good to see him on the show
Yeah but he's taking the obvious route of becoming a talking head sharing biting quips in 3 minute guest segments. It's going to dilute his intelligence as he - naturally - favours the wealth and exposure of quantity over quality.
He is saying things we heard before a milion times from the people on the right only with a gay voice and british accent so I guess that's what gives him extra points...
@@dickmonkey-king1271 I need to see his 2020 interview with Chris Williamson again, but I do sense he has meandered down that route.
@@nebo2073 He's havinga one on one discussion and none of this is coming up in his books, is he not allowed to talk anymore? Why does him being gay have any point? Let me guess you are part of the tolerant left. Showing it as ever
I think the Bad Religion song 'Sorrow' encapsulates the religious 'instinct' that Murray talks about. For me, when I hear about numbers and religion, that can usually hook my interest because I've had religious experiences where numbers were central, and so the religious character of those epiphanies took on rational and ontological dimensions for me and made it real. I still love to ponder it. I'm susceptible to some bullshit, or probably more like sentimentalism or romanticism, but I like to think I'm fairly good at weeding out largescale, shepherd type bullshit. Never went for Trump for example, where bible folk sure did. But then again, I think I'm the center of the world
Religion is the best business model out there.
2 non religious people advising us about Religion! 😂😂
Jesus said that if a blind man leads a blind man,both will fall into a pit. And so will anyone else following them.
Every week an eminence in a topic. Love it.
@Adriana Bass thank you but no. Looks like malware 🤣🤣👍
Douglas Murray truly seems to like Joe Rogan and enjoys talking to him, his entire demeanour is vastly different when talking to him. That comes to show what a great interviewer Joe is, but also how Douglas simply needs such type of conversations where he absolutely enjoys the company of his fellow across the table.
Yes, I thought the exact same thing...
It's easier to fool someone then to convince them they've been fooled...
Man it would be amazing if Joe could bring in a Catholic or something to let them defend their faith. That would be quite interesting and healthy
have you not seen the episodes with Jordan Peterson? 😂
Joe was raised Catholic (Italian from Boston) so he’s well aware of the dark side of our religion. It would be interesting but Jordan Peterson speaks about religion better than the Pope
@@troymcclure681 Jordan Peterson isn't a professing Christian. He usually says of his faith, "I act as if God exists." I'd say he's very generous toward Christianity, but he does not claim to be a Christian and does not attend Church that I know of. As a Christian myself, I really like Jordan Peterson and agree with a lot of what he says about Christianity, but I don't think Joe has ever had on someone truly defending the Christian faith.
@@matthew7491 how do you know Jordan peterson doesn't attend church?
Do you know him personally?
Have you not seen his debate with Sam Harris ?
I also doubt would have a episode strictly on Christianity but most of Jordan peterson episodes are him defending the Bible and why we should use it today
@@troymcclure681 Exactly. The last JRE episode proves that. He will be a full-blow Christian apologist soon.
I'm a Catholic and thankfully I still have faith . It helps in all aspects of life. I like people who have faith who believe in things they cannot prove. The guru at end sounds like Bill Cosby.
Same bro. God bless
This reminds me of an interview Thomas sowell did and he was asked by the interviewer who should we listen to if we aren't listening to the anointed. "We should listen first and foremost to our own experience. You seem to act as though there should be alternative saviors. We should stop looking for saviors. Society has not existed for thousands of years because we had a succesion of saviors."
It's a reaaaallll big assumption to start with "God is not real" and then argue from there. Atheism isn't philosophy it's religion.
your wrong. it's the lack of a religion. it's the only logical way to go. 🤷♂️
Religion is supposed to be about the methodology of becoming one with or in union with God, not about believing in a certain set of ideas. Sadly more people are likely to gravitate towards believing in some thing versus doing the actual work.
You're talking about Theosis. Good point.
Truth. They miss what is being pointed at and fixate on the finger.
It seems almost a requisite to make this mistake to become a religious devotee.
@@Evanderj “They miss what’s being pointed at and focus on the finger”
That sounds like one of the lines from the Tao Te Ching. Direct correlation or coincidence?
@@Nepthu Or Dzogchen, Advaita Vedanta, etc.
Exactly. Higher ideals. Higher imaginings. Higher purpose. etc. (and Im not even a stoner lelz)
Just a reminder that this guy wrote a book called "Neoconservatism: Why we need it"
I only clocked cause the pic of Mel Brooks as Moses. Favorite movie of all time.
Had a father in law who was an auctioneer/conman, and he was very charismatic. Sometimes it was scary how easy it was for him to control individuals and groups. I always thought, twas a good thing he wasn't a religious leader or person like Hitler or it would go very badly for his victims. As it was he just ripped them off and most had a lot of money and could afford it.
For a lot of Mormons, it has the opposite effect. Many ex-Mormons become extremely cynical and and a hard time believing anything. They so burned, they have a hard time taking a new leap of faith.
I'd say it's that way for most. I think Joe's friend is probably an exception and just a susceptible person in general. Most people leave the church precisely because they're so cynical and skeptical in the first place
Great content as always 👍
@Carlie Berry ummm huh?
The battles we face are never our own, even when the 'battles' we face perseveres the loneliness of our fear.. ~ VF Luvall
I think Luvall is saying
Spirituality is the leadership of oneself, and equanimity is the victory over all one's battles.
If you go fishing with a mormon, take two. Otherwise he'll drink all your beer.
It was extremely profound when Antony Flew could no longer subscribe to a wholly natural theory of creation when he assessed the findings of the Human Genome Project. In response Richard Dawkins said that Flew was old and senile. If Dawkins is the intellectual giant that many purport him to be then shouldn't he have sought Flew directly to inquire about what altered his long standing point of view? Did Dawkins not have the confidence he could bring Flew back to his senses? Flew was probably one of the most influential and wide read athiest academics of the 20th century. How catastrophic must it have been for Dawkins to see a god of his 'fall so far?'
Dawkins is a con man that sells books
So happy Douglas is back in the states!
Such a brilliant orator
I miss Joe on YT full time
Shut up, it’s been 2 years
To me, what's crazy is that there's so many people who say that the Mormons are good people, but yet they are weird...lol honestly, I think they're good people as well. I know there's a lot in Utah but the fact that they are good people and they're known amongst many, many people to be good. Kind of sparks an interest in me. I guess I got to wait to see two guys on the bike rolling around town 😆
They may have a car as well depending on where your at.
Ted Bundy was mormon. Ask one hundred people what they think of him.
@@jiml4987 Was he a practicing one?? I highly doubt that shii! The lds I know are good folks, I've definitely met imperfect Christians from every Church, but no crazy devout Mormons like that sicko
I’d recommend talking to them next time you see them
One of my good friends when I was a teenager in the later 90s got caught up in all that Osho nonsense, it still goes on I believe. I remember when he'd come to visit me in London after a recent trip to India and he would constantly try and get me to listen to some preachy Osho tape about meditation and our existence and whatever. I just wanted to play tekno and get out of my head.
I'm with you. Though Eminem said no body listens to techno, I think he was joking. It's picking up!
love these life talks
Douglas has a sense of humor, I am thrilled to know it! I had not noticed it before, but love his book!
Religion comes with a package cultural norms and traditions that are comfortable. It hard to just throw those away.
"A people without Religion will in the end fine out that it has nothing to live for".
~T.S. Eliot
The only suitable alternative to religion is a robust yet simple philosophy which relies heavily on holding your peers to account for their actions. Here are the virtues of my philosophy along with simple examples of each, by order of importance:
1) Vigilance - Validate good
(is food still edible?)
2) Courage - Protect good
(defend food from predators)
3) Modesty - Inspire good
(don't over eat)
4) Productivity - Create good
(grow food)
5) Progressiveness - Optimize good
(learn to grow more food)
6) Generosity - Share good
(teach others to grow food)
The times I was put in handcuffs, prayed and was let go.
I've been saying this for a long time...society is struggling to fill the void left behind by religion.
Jesus said humans have an instinctual spiritual need at Matthew 5:3 " Happy are those conscious of thier spiritual need" -Jesus
We have a Christ shaped hole in our hearts
Most people are still religious
@@aronlane4664 actually it's a very small percentage that are actively involved in a religion especially in an organized manner.
@@aronlane4664 you really believe that? Especially in The West? Lol No, the Supreme Court removed the Bible & Christian Prayer in all schools in 1962, they were removing our Christian religion & traditional roots for a long time. We have no Secular Humanism.
The cosmology offered up by modern society and science feels like a lie, because it is. It's central narrative of the big bang theory was the brain child of a Jesuit priest and is inherently limiting, yet people lack the courage and ability to think beyond it. Science should have bought us full circle back into the mystery of discovery but instead has just become another system of control through story telling, this time using the language of mathematics.
"Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality." - Nikola Tesla
Science has become religion, a system of control co-opted from the original vector of mans desire to investigate the mystery. But the original vector will always remain! It doesn't matter how the story is spun. You can't co-opt our desire to _know_ - belief just doesn't cut it.