Job 38 DEBUNKS Mormon Premortal Life
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
- Latter-day Saints, or Mormons, teach of a preexistence in which all of humanity existed as spirit children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother before the world was created. This LDS doctrine is heralded as one of the most precious truths of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, and often evokes quite an emotional response by those in the LDS Church.
Yet Christian doctrine teaches that humans were created with both a body and a spirit, and that we did not preexist prior to being born on earth. The question of preexistence in the Bible was something we addressed in one of our previous God Loves Mormons videos ( • Is the Mormon doctrine... ) One often quoted passage that supports this idea is John 8:23. Yet there was another helpful text that we didn't include in that video which speaks to this idea: Job 38:1-7:
"Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: 'Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements-surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
In this video, we explain why the Mormon view of a preexistence is incompatible with the teaching of Job 38. Joseph Smith taught this doctrine that had previously not been taught in the Bible, and that is made clear when one considers the host of verses that reveal that there is no such thing as the preexistence.
Other related videos:
Did we preexist: • Is the Mormon doctrine...
Who are the children of God: • Why we're NOT all chil...
Should Mormons and Christians focus on their differences: • Christians & Mormons S...
What is the purpose of life: • THE PURPOSE OF LIFE - ...
Are families forever: • Are Families Really "F...
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The Book of Job, often considered the oldest book of the Bible (historically) threw me for a loop when I became a Christian.
I couldn't understand it's message at first, then I read it again. Still bewildering.
I put it down for a while and read the New Testament for the first time.
So much happened since then. And now I get it! And the story of Job is now so humbling to me, and helps put into perspective everything that happens to me.
And now I know I can use it as an apologetic tool to Glorify God? AWESOME!
I was born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and as a kid I never understood why “us Mormons” weren’t considered Christians by other Christians. Well, once I left the church and became a Born Again Believer I discovered the world of difference between Mormon theology and true Biblical Christianity. It’s absolutely mind blowing how different it is! I now equate Mormon theology with a mix between Paganism and New Age Gnosticism, sprinkled with Luciferianism and Freemasonry. The fact that the LDS Church teaches that God was once a man, and that every man can become a God, is quite blasphemous to the true Biblical teachings of Jesus Christ, especially when you begin to understand it’s the same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve in the Garden, “you’ll be like God!” … Great video! Job 38 is absolutely incredible!
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Having an understanding of Job is having an understanding of why God uses questions. To say Job was not part of the Sons of God in verse 7 is assuming that the reason God is asking Jobs questions is making Job feel even worse about his position, when he just had just been through interrogation after interrogation from his friends.
I dont believe God is evil. Hes not putting more salt in the wounds in these verses but in fact the opposite. He is telling Job that his worth is more than flesh. He WAS one of the sons of God that shouted for Joy. God was giving Job a Pep talk. Reminding him who he was and letting him know that the gospel is worth more. It was this exclamation that Job understands in Job 19
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.
Way to go guys! Keep pressing in.
God's Word is so clear on this matter. Thank you for simply reading through the text and explaining it. God alone is worthy of praise. There is no one like Him!
Thank you so much for the truth, very important!!
Thank you for sound teaching. It is so refreshing.
Amen and God bless
Hey you guys are great. I have been disturbed by LDS doctrine because the Book of Mormon makes such massive claims for itself. I thought why/how would anyone make all this up? Who would fabricate such a massive and intricate lie? I still don't know the answers to those questions, but I do feel confident that one does not have to take LDS or any other sacraments to be saved. Jesus loves all his faithful ones.
The point why I was saying all that is that I think you guys are doing the Lord's work. It's important to debunk these myths that threaten the integrity of the faith.
Exactly the verses I put forth on an *LDS* video and also used *I JOHN 1:18* where it says, "No man hath seen God at any time...". That puts to rest the "great council" where God met with e/one in advance of being born. One replied to the issue that they're unable to *REMEMBER* their past life, is that God erases their memory of it to "test their faith" (as if that has any merit). Sadly, *LDS* will argue till the proverbial cows come home or until there's a blue moon. Pray earnestly that they'll come to Christ.
I must admit I did not watch this video. Just by the title I instantly knew someone got something wrong. I know very little of the Mormon religion. I grew up with a Christian background. My grandfather was the preacher. I found this searching for pre mortal existence. There are many of us, though a minority. That can remember our existence before birth. We refer to it as a pre mortal existence (PME) or a pre birth memory (PBM). Just as he attempts scripture to disprove. I give scripture to prove this. Jeremiah 1:5.
I’m having trouble bridging these versus in Job as meaning we didn’t have spirits that existed previous to this mortal life. It seems to me that God is just saying his wisdom is far greater than anything we can comprehend in our mortal state.
And what would Jeremiah 1:5 mean when it says “ Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”
The Book of Abraham in the Mormon persuasion speaks of the preexistence.
Good stuff guys
Beautiful!
Humans are God's creation, not his literal offspring. Mormonism is wrong.
This chapter does not disprove there is a preexistence but proves there is one. God was reminding Job that he was there and part of the foundation. "Where was thou before I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare if thou hast understanding." He saying please tell me you remember where you came from and what your purpose is. Not to mention the other verses in the bible that say likewise such as Jeremiah 1:5 where God says, "Before I formed thee in thee belly I knew thee." Why would God say this if there was no pre existence?" In Luke 1: 41 “And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.” You can come to your own conclusions on this one. Paul also mentions in Ephesians that, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good will and pleasure of his will.” Whether or not you believe in the pre-existence if up to the individual. There is multiple accounts in the bible that give reference to there being one. These are just a few but there are multiple including Moses and Abraham and Jesus when he said, "For this cause came I into the world." Jesus came to earth to save all of us and was predestined to do so.
"AS GOD CREATED MAN AND WOMAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE AND LIKENESS, SO LIKEWISE WAS JESUS CREATED BEING A MAN, HE WAS CREATED THE SAME WAY WE ALL ARE AND LIVED WITH GOD PRIOR TO BEING BORN INTO THIS WORLD IN THE FLESH. SO JESUS BEING A MAN LIKE US WAS ORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD OR IN OTHER WORDS HE LIKE US LIVE IN A PRE-EXISTENT STATE AND LIVED WITH OUR HEAVENLY FATHER PRIOR TO TO BEING INTO THIS EARTH" LIKEWISE, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you” (Jer 1:5). THIS SIGNIFIES A PRE-EXISTENT STATE OR DWELLING PLACE WITH GOD BEFORE BEING BORN INTO THIS EARTH"
Proverbs 8:22-31 proves the pre-existence of mankind before this world was created.
Wisdom is the one speaking here. (See the beginning of that chapter, vv 1-3). So yes, wisdom was with God when he created everything, not men.
this is not the only pre-existence text in the bible. Jeremiah was sanctified and ordained before he was born (Jer 1:5). Eph 1:4-5 explains we were predestinated and chosen before the foundation of the world.
Certainly not the only one - this video wasn't trying to hit all the texts... Just was working through this particular verse.
To understand “choosing before the foundation of the world” or “predestination” we have to first believe in God’s sovereignty and foreknowledge. In God’s omnipotence, He knew before creating us that there would be a fall due to free will (was clearly already there as you see Eve question within herself to partake of the fruit or not) and the need there would be for redemption from sin. In that foreknowledge, God knew there would be those that would choose to follow Him and be saved in Jesus and become His adopted children. This does not mean that we dwelled with Him before but that He wishes to share His glory with His creations and provided a way for us to do so.
They actually did a video about Jere 1:5 if you’d like to watch. We cannot just take one or two random verses out of context and build an entire theology around it, that is not how the Bible works.
This is totally off topic, but I would like to know the brand and pattern of the blue plaid shirt the speaker is wearing, and howling ago it was purchased, so that I can know if it’s likely to still be available on the market.
BTW: I have been listening to many of your videos, as I am hoping to be used of God to help to LDS missionaries to see the real Jesus and to question LDS theological foundations, ESPECIALLY that the church needed restoring! Once this no longer makes sense, hopefully they will start to see that other foundational aspects of LDS teachings are not valid.
I hope that you will be able to provide the plaid shirt info. All Grace to you!
Why did God create man in His own image and likenesd but make us dumb as dirt? Why would a perfect immortal being, make a less than perfect image of Himself? Was God unable to make anything better or did He choose to make stupid and genetically inferior beings, who just happen to look like Himself?
Romans 12:2
"As Christians we don't..." I am sorry. Do you speak for all Christians? All 2 to 3 billion adherents? All 50,000 or so denominations? Where did you get the authority do so?
Romans 8 tells us who the sons of God are. They are those who are led by the spirit of God. Clearly, Job is a son of God. The sons of God are not necessarily beings that are higher than men, they are men or spirits that were with God from the beginning.
(Romans 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
who were the sons of God? Were they with God? I don't understand.
Is GLM a Calvinist ministry?
Jerimiah 1:5
What do you make of this verse?
I looked and couldn't believe we didn't have a video on that verse... So I actually just filmed a quick video about Jer 1:5 that should be coming out in a few weeks!
Long story short - Jeremiah 1:5 is talking about the knowledge of GOD, not the knowledge of Jeremiah. It says that God knew Jeremiah, but never states that Jeremiah knew God.
(Honestly - this verse by itself is inconclusive for this discussion. If the preexistence were true, then this COULD be understood in that light. However, it also fits the Christian interpretation... honestly, I don't think Jeremiah 1:5 is all that helpful for determining whether or not there was a preexistence. We need to take a look at other, more clear texts in Scripture and let those interpret Jer. 1:5 for us)
Hope that helps!
@@GLM
Thank you.
@@GLM what’s harder to believe is that in the previous vids on the that this verse never came up! This is the first verse a Mormon would use to counter your argument. It makes sense that all of us were not present at the Creation (the beginning of everything). I am sure we were created sometime after that. Semantics, but I don’t think you used scripture to teach any truth. It’s going to be so interesting in the afterlife. I am sure all of us will learn something we thought was true, wasn’t.
John 8:23 does not teach against a pre earth life.
Jesus is uniquely from above because his father was God. The rest of us have two mortal parents.
In John 15:19 Jesus tells his disciples they are also not of this world. Not of this world refers to the desires/actions of the world not origin of creation. Otherwise you would have to accept that the disciples had a pre earth life.
Also it is not explicit that God is telling Job he hadn’t been created at the creation of the earth. That is your interpretation.
My high school basketball team won the state championship one year. I could ask a friend of mine when remembering that moment, where were you when the final buzzer sounded and the student section erupted with joy, even though I know he was there next to me, or somewhere else in the crowd.
Likewise this verse does not clearly make the distinction that Job is not included in the Sons of God.
Further more we know we are the offspring of God so it is a stretch to try and say that we aren’t the sons of God.
What a false interpretation of Job 38 by this misguided teacher. Job was there when all the sons of God shouted for joy because he was one of those sons of God. Everyone that will ever live on this earth was created spiritually (in a pre-mortal existence) hence Genesis 2:1. How could all the host of the earth have already been created if Job and billions of others did not yet exist as this preacher teaches? Read Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:4
5-7 to understand the difference between a pre mortal spiritual creation and a subsequent physical creation. When I see this teacher I am reminded of Matthew 13:14.
Genesis 1:2 (Job38:30) has water in the universe surrounded by the spirit of God before the creation story. Genesis 1:28 KJV replenish the earth. I can go on but this teaching I am watching is not from scripture. 😢. 2 Peter 3:3-4 🤔
"THIS FALSE TEACHER FORGOT TO MENTION, ECCLESIASTES 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth - Bible Gateway Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. THE WORD RETURN MEANS, GOING BACK TO A PLACE OR ORIGIN!
What father loving his children would not want them to have what he has to be like him to love as he loves to see as he sees to feel what he feels to be as he is this is The love of a true father and this is the True doctrine of Jesus Christ. Please please brothers and sisters let us not put limits on God‘s love for us let us not put limits on who we truly are and where we came from let us pray with sincerity of heart To our eternal father in heaven that we may find and know our true identity as literal sons and daughters of God I love you all my brothers and sisters so so much! And forever☀️
There’s a difference. We will feel unending joy in heaven. That’s not limited. Gods grace is where his love is shown. Your belief is unbiblical. It goes against the breathed out word of god
You describe a very human-like and very materially generous view of God, in our western, human view of generosity.
However, the Old and New Testaments present the historical Jewish and Christian view of the God of all, and this view asserts that God and the Messiah are persons in the one absolutely unique being who is God-the God of all creation who is above and set apart (holy) from all other things in creation.
This God has a totally unique nature, personhood, substance, glory, power, and character.
If this being is totally unique, it makes this God the most precious thing ever-in all of eternity. If this view is true, there is nothing like him. At all. He is precious because there is only one of this God.
In short, the God of Israel is Yahweh-and is NOT a man and never was: see Isaiah 43 (see English Standard Version for just one of the many places where the God of Israel states that he is not a man and there is and will never be any other true God (Elohim is a noun in Hebrew meaning “god” or the one God.)
When we read the Old Testament we can find many instances of this statement: “The LORD is the only God “ or The LORD your God” If we replace LORD and God with the Hebrew words we read: Yahweh is the only Elohim, and Yahweh your Elohim.
The Biblical Jesus was never created: he was not the first spirit son of a being named Elohim-Elohim is a noun in Hebrew, never a personal name. If Elohim was a personal name it would be strange like this when Moses spoke to God:
Moses: Who shall I tell the people sent me?
Heavenly Father: Tell them my name is God. And I, God sent you.
Moses: Wait-your name is “God”?
Heavenly Father: Yes. Your first name is Moses. My first name is God.
Moses: uh…you had all the names in the world to choose from and you just went with “God”?
Heavenly Father: It has an authoritative ring, don’t you think?
Ok…I digress, but I hope you see the point. God gives us his personal name: Yahweh.
Interestingly, Jesus was already there in the beginning, because he also has no beginning and no end-this fulfills messianic prophecy and is clearly and simply stated in John 1:1-5. I hope this gives you interesting insight to consider. We learn a lot about the Bible’s historicity from artifacts and preserved Jewish history. I hope you find something here useful.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 1Corinthians ch:7 ver7 what manor of men Ot ye to be even as I.
NO, NO, NO! In John 8:23 Jesus was speaking to Jews who wanted him dead but would not lay hands on him because his hour was not yet. He often said people like that were of the devil. It's definitely not speaking of all mankind being totally created from the earth. Even Adam was not from below before the fall. His body was formed of The Lord. Let's look at some other scriptures here. Here John is talking about Jesus. John 1:9 KJV That was the true Light, which lighteth every man THAT COMETH INTO the world. Plus there are other scriptures in The Bible where God says he knew people before they were in the womb and some preworld-ordained folks. It does not say that Jobe did not exist, and you can't base this on his assumption of what God meant. Look at these next 2 scriptures and I can assure you there are many more unpopular passages like them in The Bible. Hebrews 12:9 KJV Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Psalms 82:6 KJV I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Haha that’s your proof the verses in job proving and describing a flat stationary earth with foundations and cornerstones ? . You proved nothing on denying the Pre mortal existence with your complete misunderstanding of job . . And Mormons are the true Christian’s , we have the fullness of the gospel that you deny .
Pre-existence is an incorrect term. The correct term is pre-mortal existence.
Lol
Hebrews 7
We can say that through Abraham even Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham. For when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the loin of his ancestor.
And we can keep going back all the way back to before God created Himself.
Your false doctrine socks.
let us not put limits on God‘s love for his sons and daughters! And who they are☀️and who he wants them to become! I say this because I love you with my whole heart I know who you are we are literally sons and daughters of God created in his image! He is our father and we are his children we surely dwelt in his presence before the world was created
THIS FALSE TEACHER IS CONFUSED, GOD REMINDS JOB WHERE WAS, HE SAY'S WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I LAID THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, SURELY YOU KNOW" THE IMPLIED ANSWER IS THAT YOU WERE THERE! THE MORNING STARS SHOUTED FOR JOY! ARE NOT ANGELS, ANGELS ARE RESURRECTED BEINGS! THIS SCRIPTURE CLEARLY DOES NOT SAY THAT THEY WERE ANGELS. In Acts, Paul was at the meeting of the Areopagus, and he was speaking to the people of Athens (Acts 17:22). While Paul is speaking to the Athenian philosophers, he says, “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone - an image made by human design and skill”
Instant loss of credibility when you present Mormonism and Christianity as being opposites, i.e. presenting the Mormon view and then following up with "[but] as Christians, we believe..." What is a Christian? One who believes in Christ. So, it is plain to see that disparaging the beliefs of a particular Christian group gratifies your ego, and you should probably get over yourself. Whether the doctrine of a preexistence is true or not, it's also really apparent that you don't understand it. That being the case, why not just live a humble life and focus on the basics like the Atonement. Through the power of the Atonement, our prideful and nonsensical babblings can be forgiven.
@Christoph Björn This comment seemed very harsh and ungracious. I don’t see where the speaker is trashing LDS teachings. He is simply expressing his understanding of the issues of pre-existence.
What really matters is truth. Is what he saying true, or is LDS teaching true??!
He’s not being rude or untruthful. We simply believe in different christs. Christians follow a biblical Christ. One who created everything that was created including us and Satan. Colossians 1:16. Lds teaching is a Christ who was literally birthed from the father. That’s very different and unbiblical. He has to give harsh truth like this to get the point across. We are opposites