In this video I share 2 common methods to create an ideal saddle height with minimal tools BUT I share a few secrets that will help you really dial in your saddle height.
Did a 40mile trip today. I had been measuring my saddle height with the heel down, but with shoes on! My lower back outside edges are absolutely killing me from my pelvis rocking side to side. I just refitted saddle height with my socks on and took at least 1.5cm off. I could really feel that the height had caused all that overuse of muscles rocking the pelvis! Also just ordered a shorter stem as neck was killing me from trying to look up! Thanks for all your help, coach 👏
I like inseam -10cm. I set my saddle to that minus an additional 2cm, then went out for a ride pedaling in one gear higher than normal, a bit harder effort than normal. I raised 5mm at a time and rode for a few minutes.. until the height where the bottom of the stoke felt like it wasn't as even. Then I dropped 5mm. It ended up right at where it would have been had I left it at inseam -10cm. So I am a big fan of that method, at least to start by knocking off 2cm and going up from there. Also I played with saddle height on an indoor trainer, and found that the stroke will feel uneven at a slightly lower height than the feeling of hips dropping occurs. So from what I've seen hip rocking is what you'll notice if you've gone higher than the point where the bottom of the stroke is uncontrolled. Start low and go up, then down slightly.
Did a triathlon earlier this year and when I reviewed the photos on the bike I realised the fit was all wrong. I must have watched this video more than 4 times but ive now got a set up that feels much more comfortable. Sock test (L/R) - lowered saddle height. Piano test - moved saddle back Mummy test - need a new 60mm stem (slaved one from a mountain bike) Broom test - need 36cm bars. Really looking forward to winter rides and will buy a smaller frame in the spring (needs approval from internal affairs department, though) Liked. Subscribed. I'll share too
This is my Coach!! He definitely knows what he is talking about, I lowered my saddle by 12 mm today because of this video! World of difference! Thanks Scott! John C
I’ve been watching your videos and they have corrected my issues on the saddle particularly saddle discomfort. I lowered my saddle and bumped it up fore a few mm and shortened my stem 5 mm . I’m definitely more comfortable but also feel stronger on the bike in the long haul. I have a mate that can’t ride the second day because of saddle sores and I was comically video taping him riding and his hips are rocking like a lady of the night because his saddle is way too high.
Thank you coach, this is gold. I just adjust my seat height and hopefully it will heal my persistent right kneed pain in the acl tendon area, just below the patella.
This is one of the best videos on the subject. I’ve been a cyclist for decades with numerous fits over the years. Quite frankly his method and tips are clear, concise, and not overly complicated. At 42 years old with a few mild overuse injuries this technique is spot on for me. I did the lemond method with -3 millimeters as he suggested and felt instant balance in my pelvis and pedal stroke. Bravo!
I stumbled across your channel yesterday - you've just solved my back pain issue. I've used the inseam measurement for some time to set my saddle height but I've never been comfortable, back pain on and off the bike (I ride a MTB). I've never seen the 120mm measurement method, tried it and had to lower my saddle by almost 2cm! I made the adjustment, went for a ride yesterday and flippen hell - no more excruciating back pain (touch wood) - I mean WTF. None of the bike fitters that I've been to used the 120mm measurement from the back of the saddle, I'll be sure to let them in on your secret. Thanks Coach - you're a legend 🤟
This is the only video on RUclips that instructs to do the heel method without cycling shoes , do you mind sharing why without the cycling shoes , isn’t that will result in closing the knee angle more adding the shoes later ??
Not sure why anyone would share info saying you do it with shoe on. When we fitted pros we would aim for knee angle of 29-33 degrees - even this is aggressive and didn’t suit sprinters! So if u want to have your leg completely locked out then you are never going to stabilise your pelvis and you will also put your hamstring under immense strain. I show it with shoe off and also get people to do both sides to show they have different flexibilities on each hip etc. Remember that this is just a crude starting point but it can work. Please don’t do with shoes on as your saddle will be too high 👍
@@BulletproofCycling thank you for the detailed reply. I will try that today, don’t take my comment in any negative way, I follow your videos and techniques and I find your approach unique and different and I like that.
Hi, if I use the method wie with measuring the inseam times 0,883, I will not be able to touch the pedal with my heal. If taking the heal methode, do I have to reach the pedal with the heal WITHOUT shoes??? I realy need help. It is very confusing.
I have problems with my bike fit since ....forever , I almost lost my confidence that I will ever fix it , adjustment for heel method , should be performed without my shoes, great tip for both parts , I will try that and adjust for lower leg ( my feeling that left has some imbalance )
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. In your videos, can you please show the correct way for a male pelvis to sit on the saddle? A few times you have said "she" or "her", but I'm not sure if you meant that pelvis was female or if you are referring to the bike as a ship. I'm no doubt wrong, but I always thought the wide part of the saddle was the place to put the ischial tuberosities In your videos, you place the ischial tuberosities either side of the thin part of the saddle where the midpoint "x" is. I'm getting painful proximal hamstring tendinopathy after crit racing and I'm now wondering if that is because I should be sitting further forward on the saddle.
Same for male - you position in the middle which is approx at that 120mm point I mention. Sorry to hear about your problem. I have seen it in runners and cx riders. Isometric glute bridge exercises can help but lots of other helpful drills (one being sone tweaks to sitting posture) I hope you get it fixed
Many thanks for the content, not seen the heel on pedal method without shoes before this meant dropping my saddle a whopping 15mm , I'll let you know the results 😉
Thanks coach for the explanation but there's a little issues here with the cranks length if the cranks is too long maybe 175 or something like that and the Rider is a shorter one the saddle height is effected by the cranks length for example your perfect cranks length is 165mm and your new bike has a 175 mm cranks length you should get your saddle lower by 10 mm in the new bike + the 3 or 5 mm for shoes and shorts stack
Hi coach, are you resting heels to pedals without shoes, just barefoot test? Straight down perpendicular to ground? Also will you have video on saddle size? What if saddles too wide or too narrow? Thanks!
All your vids are great. But id like know if same principles apply for mt bikes? . but im trying to set up a xc bike for some road training and a vid on the differences or compromises needed for mt bikes would be great.
Hey coach. I adjusted my saddle to follow your tips in this video. I noticed that my power increased thru my climb. The annoying aches in my rhomboids are gone as well. But the problem is I feel my quads burn more quickly. I don’t get any tension in my hams and glutes. Do I increase saddle height again? Thanks much! Your video is a blessing!
Thanks for sharing. It could be that your glutes are not activating fully (or they need some strength work) try pushing up 5mm again and pushing forward 5mm! The forward position can help get the glutes more involved in pedal stroke. Try doing some deep squats before you cycle as well. 👍👍
regarding saddle height in relation to riding more toe down; not extremely however and also having big feet for my size; I think. my height 172cm leg length 85cm shoe size 45 your advice is so amazing. I found your site by accident. can you give some advice? thank you
so my seat was already set at inseam minus 5mm. However, I filmed from behind, and there was quite a bit of rocking to reach heal down. so I dropped it a good bit more. tonights zwift should be interesting
Hi , just subscribed your channel and love it 😍 I am new in cycling and sorry if this is a silly question but could you please show where did you measured for the length??? I can’t see from where to the top of the seat 🤷🏻♀️ thank you in advance
Yes that can work. However, when I create bike dimensions for riders I create crank length for them based on limb and flexibility analysis. When you use the measures I share I am assuming you are on a bike that fits you. However, crank length is important if you have a lot of hip impingement or your reach is too long and stack is low. I plan to do some more videos on crank length 👍👍👍
Thanks a lot coach , you saved my life I was riding in a really low position , i had knee problems , and i was outputing like 70% of the possible power Thanks to you the power meter is screaming :D
Thanks for sharing. I always struggle with saddle height. My right hip and leg are a bit forward (few cm when I stand), also my foot is toeing outwards. It's nightmare to set up the saddle height without feeling pain in my right hip. I will try your way, hope it will be better than what I was doing.
@@BulletproofCycling The pain in the right hip is less, but still noticible. I changed the cleat position as per your instructions, but I had to move them back 10mm (left) and 16 mm (right - with inward rotation) like in your great tutorial, because cleats position dead under the ball of my foot did not feel comfortable. It all feels a bit better, but I'm thinking of moving the saddle few mm up, while I feel a bit compression in my knees. Also, I feel 'too forward' on the saddle so I will probably move it back slightly - to be honest, I'm waiting for your video re. how to set up f&a position properly, because your advises are superb. I would love to go for bike fit, but in London it's not easy...
@@patrykdziopa8812 in the next few weeks I am going to do a static measurement of a rider. If you can repeat these measurements then I can help you with an x/y geometry 👍👍👍 this will hopefully give you a good reference point 👍
One question. You set a marker 120mm from the rear and measure up to that marker from the center of the BB. If you have a non flat saddle, where do you measure too? Do I put a straight edge on the saddle, or do I go to the center of the saddle? In the video it looks like you measured to the center of the saddle in height. Not the top of the saddle. Can you explain that one?
always measure to the top of the saddle as different saddles have different stack heights. I use 120mm as my standard point as I measure body limb measurements to various points of the bike. This makes it easier for me to use limb length against bike geometry. If you use a consistent point on your saddle for each measure then it will help. Hope that helps
Hi there. I’m interested in getting a fit after cycling for best part of 40 odd years club riding.Do you bring your own bike and then those jig sizes are transmitted onto your road bike. Changing bar and stems at an extra cost obviously . Thanks.
Hi Scott! I love your channel and appreciate all the content you provide. Could you address why saddle bounce occurs particularly at higher RPMs, please? My apologies if I missed it in one of your videos.
I recently purchased a new bike and got a set up sitting on the bike. The position felt ok on the bike but I could barely touch the ground with my feet. I was in real danger of toppling off. I had to lower the seat.
Interesting you advocate heel method on the bike without shoes. Most others I watch advocate with shoes on. Lemond method always been shoes off but I find that measurement never works for me. It’s about 30mm lower for some reason. (and I use 170 cranks on the road bike and 165 cranks on the TT bike)
Hey Colin I have never done the heel measurements with shoes on. You would struggle to get even the minimal knee angle needed be to even partly efficient. Sounds like you may have similar issues to me in that your flexibility is different on each side. I never use either method actually in studio as I can measure efficiency at different heights but they are good starting points. However, as you have noticed, you need to tweak to suit you 👍👍
Hi Colin, hi Coach! I have the exact same issue with a difference of about 30mm with 165 cranks. However, the lower position feels a lot more stable. If I raise the saddle I tend to slide to its front while pushing harder. Can you confirm that this is common between the two methods?
Hi Coach! Your videos have been a great help to improving my riding posture. Do these methods for measuring saddle height and fore-aft apply for folding bicycles where the bottom bracket is not directly under the seat tube?
thinking of the way to set leg length at the start of the video,could you remove one crank arm and rotate it 180deg and refit so both pedals are at the bottom(not sure you can do that on road cranks but we can on mtb) ,that way you can have both feet at the lowest at the same time so you know you are not leaning to one side as you check each leg?
I have ability in studio to easily change crank length and show riders the difference. I may share some footage of this. Could make interesting viewing 👍👍👍
Now I know why my left SI joint is so stiff, its that pelvic rotation that is occurring as I have less flexibility on my LHS, I better adjust my seat as you outline, great stuff and less trips to the chiro
Hi Scott. I've seen plenty of videos on this and most of them do the heel method with shoes on. Does it make a difference? I'm thinking with out shoes is correct as it leads to a more angled leg when you put your shoes back on.
Hey Charlie. Yeh shoes off always. It’s a very basic method and obviously has limitations but it’s a great starting point. Especially if you do both legs and really dial into the difference you have. Enjoy and thanks for engaging in my content 👍
Hi coach, I have a question. Do you measure the heel to pedal with or without the cycling pants on. I adjusted saddle for and aft to the 120mm, the bars with the mummy method, the cleats in the right placa ( they were to far in the front) stack hight is also in the ballpark but my back still is sour a couple of days after a long ride on regular intensity. I do know my hamstrings are tight, but I lowered the saddle so far that my thig mussles were burning like h*ll. Hope you can give some advice here Keep up the video's they're very usefull and fun to watch 👍👍
Great video, thank you for posting it. Love all the knowledge coming through. My two questions are (1) is the Lemond measurement taken from the ‘centre’ of the bottom bracket (ie.not from the top of the BB shell) and (2) did the two methods shown give a comparable seat height, or was there any discrepancy between the two? Thanks again for posting. Stephen. (One of the ageing cyclists at 69, coming up to 50 years on the bike😳) PS. If I remember correctly Greg Lemond had very particular biometric measurements which were reflected in his later frame designs.
Hey Stephen - thanks. Lemond method is measured from centre of BB to top of saddle. It’s really just a guide as I mention in video. It can help give you a good starting point. Thanks for engaging in the content 👍👍👍
So where my sit bones place on my saddle should be aligned with the post? It’s a gel seat so when I get off I can see where my bones are. My inseam is 73.152 cm and my length from my petals to my seat is 86.995 I’m 5’11, 204 lbs how does that sound
Hi, I’ve recently started to feel pain on my left knee (medial collateral ligament), however, no pain or issues with hips/pelvis. Actually, it’s been about a month now. I’ve made adjustments to my cleat and seems to be all right. My right knee is perfectly fine. I also feel my saddle height is fine, but do you think I should check this measurement to be sure anyway? Could the height be the culprit also? Great and helpful videos! Thanks!
I'm not too crazy about the LeMond method, since it doesn't take crank length into account. I've had better results just doing the heel thing, to be honest. Or, more recently, multiplying my inseam by 1.07 and then subtracting the crank length in cm to get the distance between the bottom bracket and saddle. (My inseam, 85.5 cm * 1.07 = 91.5 cm; subtract 17cm crank length to get 74.5 cm from the bottom bracket to the midpoint of the saddle.)
Yep, like I said, if you use heal measure from both sides you get better length than Lemond method. Sounds like you have yours dialled in. I am actually starting some new research on crank length. Few different things to look at - will share all 👍👍
120mm? I' ll try that. If i do move it forward, do i need to adjust the saddle height as well? By how much? I just checked mine and it's 140mm from the back of the saddle. I notice that sometimes when i do laps and get on the drops, i tend to move a little forward in my seat.
It matters. In my experience it is more important in shorter riders and especially older riders with hip joint issues. I am presently working on some projects with my own clients who range from 155 - 175mm cranks.
I love your videos. Very good knowledge on a complex subject. I have a question. Does the saddle height and the for after position will be affected by using biking shoes and spd/cleats? Do I need to do some changes?
When i do this i get around 72,4 for my 82 inseam. But that is way to high for me. I ride with 71cm of seat height and have no pain what so ever. As soon as i creep it up 5mm my pedalstroke starts getting choppy. So maybe this method is not for everyone but i still like your vids coach! Keep em coming.
Yep as I say most people are between the Lemond method and the heel method BUT there needs to be adaptation in relation to flexibility etc. Thanks for sharing 👍
Scott, you seem to be placing the sit bones of your hip model outside the edge of the saddle rather than directly on top of the saddle. They seem to straddle the saddle (poetic) at the 120mm point. Is that correct?
My pelvis is very narrow and only for demo but the 120 works for almost all riders if they are on the correct saddle width. I will mention about this when I use this pelvis - sit bones will sit flat on saddle 👍👍👍
@@BulletproofCycling Thanks. Are you saying that the sit bones should fit flat on the saddle at that 120 point or simply that that measurement is used as a starting point for centering over the seat post?
@@BulletproofCycling What bracket? Are you referring to a part of the frame of the bicycle or some bracket that is attached to the frame? The center of the pedal crank would make sense. Is there a place in the video where you actually point to this bracket? Thanks for your replies.
Thank you for the video , i have a question have you ever noticed that the bike is kind of slunting to one side so that you can seem to push more power on leg compared to the other , is there a way to correct that , thanks
Hi - if this happens when you are sitting on the saddle then it could be that your pelvis is tilting to compensate a high saddle. The bike will move side to side when you stand on the pedals and when your exert max power. When I measure pedal forces I often see different levels of Newton’s at peak torque angles in left and right feet. However, you would need to see a fitter with similar 3D camera. However, have someone video you from behind. If you can place stickers or marks on left and right pelvis that are at equal heights then you can see what happens through the pedal stroke. If the hip is not dropping to one side then it could be a leg length issue or maybe a crank issue. Start with video of hip and feel free to stay in touch 👍
Love your vedos I am new to road bikes been MTN. Bike racer for years. Thought I knew the right seat hiegtband position but like you said after a hour or so center of my but starts to hurt and feels like I always have to push my put back in my saddle. Any idea of what to do. I do rides of 4+ hours and would love not to have to move around so much.
Check it’s not tilting down. Try moving that rear point you search for closer to start with so try nudging 5 mm forward. This might need a little nudge upwards as well but check it out and see how it feels 👍
Hello. I have done the heel to pedal method today as I suffer bad with right side Lower back pain on long rides. I noticed my left foot keeps contact with the pedal but my right doesn't. Had two bike fits due to my pain and still no better off. I have lowered the seat so both heels keep contact now, yet to ride it. What would be causing the right leg to loose contact but the left not? Any help would be appreciated as I am near giving up on cycling with the pain I get. Thank you Neil
Hi Neil, I actually have similar issue. I have damaged my hamstring several times and damaged my pelvis in crash so flexibility worse in right hand side. It’s very common for most folks to have asymmetry. I would work on your pelvis stability and stretching those hamstrings. Work to the height that works with weaker side (like you have done) but keep doing the work off the bike and you’ll see a difference on the bike 👍
@@BulletproofCycling thank you. I will work on what you said. I also have a clicking in my lower back/hip right side above my bum cheek 😄. Waiting for a referral now as it could be snapping hip something to do with the tendon flicking over the bone. Its very painful when riding but sets in about the 30 mile mark. As soon as I stop and stretch it goes pretty instantly but will appear again in another 10 miles. Will have to stick with the shorter rides for now I think and try not to aggrivate things. Have you ever had them symptoms? Thank you so much for your reply.
MTBs usually require shorter stems and longer handlebars than road bikes, so the mummy test might not be applicable. Nino Schurter is 1.73M tall, and i think he uses a 680mm handlebar for his XC MTB. I forgot the stem length and angle, also i don't know how wide his shoulders are. Downhill and Enduro might need longer handlebars for the same height of rider.
Start lower Christoper. If you can’t get to a bike fitter then use the first method that I share and make sure you do both legs and then remove 3-5mm to start with 👍
So I just found this video and made the adjustments using the no shoe heel on pedal method. Based on your other tutorials, I thought I had my saddle position fixed well, but after doing the adjustment without my shoes on and readjusting center with the 120 position again, I have ended up lowering my saddle more. Turns out I was reaching quite a bit with my left left when compared with my right...so I adjusted for my left leg. However, I now find my knees are bit more forward from 90 degrees. The insides of my palms were also slightly past the hoods. I slid the saddle aft a bit and then remeasured the 120mm...turns out I ended up a bit more centered over the post. I tested my reach and feels like my palms are now direcly on the top of the hoods. Have I adjusted correctly? My knees are still a bit forward from 90 degrees though and seems my knees come up higher with the shoes on when pedaling.
Oh my bloody god man, I’ve done every single method possible, including trigonometry and a make-shift angle finder and I’m still not there: I’ve just come to accept it! Multiplying my inseam by 1.09 gives me a saddle height of exactly 1 metre, but using an app, it suggests that it’s too low! I never took it beyond that because my right leg, which is shorter than my left, was already pretty outstretched. I have managed to relieve my knee pain by dropping it by 1.5cm, which aesthetically, looks correct. However, my left foot is always toe down, even at the top of the pedal stroke. Have been advised to move seat back and cleats forward to gain more leverage towards ankle but those efforts have been largely fruitless. Am I losing any efficiency by pedaling with toes down all the time or shall I just accept this as a natural position? I honestly cannot alter the position anymore than I already have done!?
The second way of measuring does not account for the crank length. Most racers use a longer crank length than the regular rider. I had this issue for a very long time when I was racing. Until I found a fitter that was racing and understood what I was doing
Hi I have been watching your video on seat height and seat fore and aft. I have back and neck problems. After about 20 miles of riding my lower back really starts to ache, mainly on right side but eventually right across and I have to keep getting off to relieve it. My neck also really aches as I seem to keep having to lift my head to view far enough in front. My problem is I am 6ft 4 and long legs. So If I have my seat in a position that seems to fit my stretch when I tip forward, then my knees are too far in front of the centre point on the bottom bracket and I feel scrunched up with my legs. If I set it up which seems a good option form my rotating legs then I think I maybe am stretching too far. Also I have my bars as high as poss but perhaps I need them a bit higher. Its all very frustrating. I also have my right leg 1.5 inches shorter than my left. I do have raised shoes but it is my Femur thats shorter so maybe this is causing my back problems? Can you offer and ideas to please so I can have a comfortable ride. Best wishes Johna
I had a bike fit recently and having changed the stem to a 90mm (from 110mm) I still feel a bit stretched. Is there a recommended minimum for stem length. I know it shouldn't bo too short but thinking about going to 80mm to see how that works. Thanks in advance and thanks for the great content.
I have seen high performing females on 60mm. The steering arc changes and at high speeds this makes it ‘twitchy’ but there are ways around it - maybe a video!! I don’t see an issue with 80mm - ask around and see if anyone has one you could try before buying???
@@BulletproofCycling Thanks. My mate actually has the same bike as me and uses a 60mm (just found out after writing the comment) which is says works for him. I've asked around and hopefully can try a couple of options. Thanks.
Hi there, I have the same issue in one leg doing the heel measure. Do I need to necessary fit wedges to compensate or just adjust the other leg with the shorter one? Thx
@@BulletproofCycling I've used that method but always with shoes and bib shorts on. Been struggling with my XR3 for a few months now, despite having had a Retul bike fit. Will try your method. Many thanks.
Is your saddle fore/aft position ok? If you have your height and inside leg measurements from your fit I could create a saddle fore/aft position for you when I am back in studio tomorrow??
Great video. Just a quick question, coach. My measured inseam is 80,7mm. If I calculate uing the numeric methods, saddle height comes a lot too high comparing to your method with bare foot on pedal minus 3-5 mm (almost 1,7cm difference). Is that normal? I have small feet (EU40), short torso, cranks 165mm, XS frame and cleats moved maximum backward (feel my feet more stable) - I'm an individual difficult to fit :)
Yes that’s quite normal. Like I say, it’s a crude method but it gives you are start point. I am 84cm inside seam and ride with 74cm saddle height. I am 178cm tall. When I do heel method you can see me left side is under greater pressure. So I adjust to that. I am riding different saddles a lot as I test bikes so always having to tweak saddle height due to stack differences in saddles. Just work of the least flexible leg and you’ll be fine 👍👍👍 hope this helps and thanks for getting involved in the channel
@@BulletproofCycling I think, that the heel method is really a good start point. I might be wrong, but according to me, the Lemond method that derived from the 80's, when most of the road saddles were round shape, will result with saddle too high for flat saddles. When we measure inseam, we don't measure it to the point we actually sit on. That can result in different heights (lemond vs stocking heel method). Just choose the comfort and raise the saddle a bit if I feel my quads burning too much :)
I got a Retul fitting and he raised the saddle about an inch.. it feels really high now, and I fail the heel test (can’t touch the pedal). Is it likely it’s too high?
Just out of curiosity whats your take on 10 degress higher within the working range of seat height? I’ve seen a couple of bike fitters who has medical background and both has same take on seat height. I think the reason for it is my hip issues and open hip angle. But the issue both couldn’t solve was the rocking hips when pedalling but when I so single leg drill i don’t rock at all. I think it must be the hip surgeries i had that threw the mechanics. Whats your take or have you come across any riders who has hip issues? Thanks.
Hi - when you say 10 degrees, do you mean 10 mm higher? If so, then I am guessing that they have prescribed this on a bike that has very short reach and high stack height (handlebar height) Hip angle is impacted by these metrics as well as crank length. Your pelvis will have some level of rocking but if you have on one side only then maybe you have clear leg length discrepancy? You may also have an issue with saddle width and maybe Q factor (distance feet are spread apart when on pedals) If you are too narrow you may rock. Feel free to send me an email if you want. 👍
@@BulletproofCycling My inseam is 857mm, 750mm is the lowest my saddle has been in 15 years of cycling. I have never been comfortable but 750mm is the best it's been. Im 68, does that affect things? I ride about 7000 miles pa. Ive had about 5 bike fits.
Nice one, I struggle with my saddle hight also. My inseam is 93.5cm that results in 82.56cm per Lemond. However I can't reach the pedals with this saddle heigth. With method one I have to lower to about 78cm. That seems a big difference to me.
@@BulletproofCycling Thank you Scott, SQLab Saddle is centered with a zero offset seatpost, knee cap roughly over pedal axle. So far I had the saddle height on 80cm (doing the heel method with shoes on), but had slight knee issues on the left leg.
@@BulletproofCycling I had it on 78.6cm today, rode 134km with 2200m elevation. Felt nice, now after the ride slight sore spot below the left knee cap, all else is fine.
The Lemond method gives me 695mm after multiplying by .883. Saddle height currently set at 680mm from center of bottom bracket to the 120mm ref point. Even that 680 is way too high for the heel test in stocking feet. I have to slump my hip off the saddle in order to have my heel on the pedal at bottom dead center. It's just fine if I do it with my bike shoes. It's even further off the pedal when the pedals are at furthest point from the saddle (just before bottom dead center). I have 170mm crank arms installed. Frame is sized for my height and stand over the top bar. This is a surprising difference in results between the 2 methods, at least in my case.
Sure is - I would use heel method and take from both sides! Get the one that feels least flexible. They are both very basic measures but between them you can usually get a good starting point. Remember that saddle fore aft and cleat positioning and the crank length different the outcome using both these methods so don’t be too alarmed.
A lot lower suggests it’s too low but you need to just adjust slowly to accommodate your fitness journey. I would start with only 5mm increases and dial that in for at least a month. Once you hit 10mm increase I would move forward 5mm. However, it may be that your present height works for your flexibility and fitness so don’t worry to much 👍👍👍
I can't figure it out! Made no sense for me. I measured my inseam as 84.5*0.883=74.5cm. On the bike, however, heal flat on the pedal was 71cm! Through the line 120mm from the back fo the saddle too. Raising up 35mm would be terrible for me.
Yeh it can throw up issues - you may have long limbs for your height. If you are having issues at 71 then just raise by 5mm and ride - do ride and review and keep with slight adjustments
Hi, what about saddle height for heel dropers? I have always felt that if i put my saddle with this methods i get a very high saddle height has i´m a heel droper, i made some research and there is a perception that for heel dropers the height could be 2 to 3 cm lower, is that right? I havent find a Bike fitter that could fit me right on my bike.... constant lower back pain... neck... etc... Thanks for your work! :)
Like I say the Lemond measurements can help get a starting point for you. Extreme heel drop may be helped with tweaking it lower but play around with it but 20mm should be enough. Tweak cleats back to take pressure of calf and make sure you experiment with saddle fore position. If too far back then you may struggle. Low back pain can be a number of issues but if only sore on the bike then try and make the alterations one at a time to try and narrow down issue. Also work on that hip stability work 👍👍
I don't think this method works for me. My inseam is 742.95 mm, which means my saddle height should be 742.957 according to the 109% method. I have my saddle set at 835 mm. Any lower and I develop pain under my kneecap and quadriceps tendinitis.
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In this video I share 2 common methods to create an ideal saddle height with minimal tools BUT I share a few secrets that will help you really dial in your saddle height.
Did a 40mile trip today. I had been measuring my saddle height with the heel down, but with shoes on! My lower back outside edges are absolutely killing me from my pelvis rocking side to side. I just refitted saddle height with my socks on and took at least 1.5cm off. I could really feel that the height had caused all that overuse of muscles rocking the pelvis! Also just ordered a shorter stem as neck was killing me from trying to look up! Thanks for all your help, coach 👏
I like inseam -10cm. I set my saddle to that minus an additional 2cm, then went out for a ride pedaling in one gear higher than normal, a bit harder effort than normal. I raised 5mm at a time and rode for a few minutes.. until the height where the bottom of the stoke felt like it wasn't as even. Then I dropped 5mm. It ended up right at where it would have been had I left it at inseam -10cm. So I am a big fan of that method, at least to start by knocking off 2cm and going up from there. Also I played with saddle height on an indoor trainer, and found that the stroke will feel uneven at a slightly lower height than the feeling of hips dropping occurs. So from what I've seen hip rocking is what you'll notice if you've gone higher than the point where the bottom of the stroke is uncontrolled. Start low and go up, then down slightly.
Did a triathlon earlier this year and when I reviewed the photos on the bike I realised the fit was all wrong.
I must have watched this video more than 4 times but ive now got a set up that feels much more comfortable.
Sock test (L/R) - lowered saddle height.
Piano test - moved saddle back
Mummy test - need a new 60mm stem (slaved one from a mountain bike)
Broom test - need 36cm bars.
Really looking forward to winter rides and will buy a smaller frame in the spring (needs approval from internal affairs department, though)
Liked. Subscribed. I'll share too
Thank you for sharing this 👍👍👍👍👍
I really like your nice and funny videos. explained in a very simple and plain english.
This is my Coach!! He definitely knows what he is talking about, I lowered my saddle by 12 mm today because of this video! World of difference! Thanks Scott! John C
❤️❤️❤️ thanks John
I’ve been watching your videos and they have corrected my issues on the saddle particularly saddle discomfort. I lowered my saddle and bumped it up fore a few mm and shortened my stem 5 mm . I’m definitely more comfortable but also feel stronger on the bike in the long haul. I have a mate that can’t ride the second day because of saddle sores and I was comically video taping him riding and his hips are rocking like a lady of the night because his saddle is way too high.
Thanks for sharing 👍👍
Used your first method set saddle it needed down about 10mm checked it with inseam and arrived at same height .Thanks for posting.
Keep me posted on how you get on 👍👍👍
@@BulletproofCycling I have now done a few rides to get used to new position and it feels miles better.
Thank you coach, this is gold. I just adjust my seat height and hopefully it will heal my persistent right kneed pain in the acl tendon area, just below the patella.
Thank you. Hope it helps 👍
This is one of the best videos on the subject. I’ve been a cyclist for decades with numerous fits over the years. Quite frankly his method and tips are clear, concise, and not overly complicated. At 42 years old with a few mild overuse injuries this technique is spot on for me. I did the lemond method with -3 millimeters as he suggested and felt instant balance in my pelvis and pedal stroke. Bravo!
Thank you 🙏
The same here. The best en simple video on RUclips how to set up your saddle height right. Works very very good !
I stumbled across your channel yesterday - you've just solved my back pain issue. I've used the inseam measurement for some time to set my saddle height but I've never been comfortable, back pain on and off the bike (I ride a MTB). I've never seen the 120mm measurement method, tried it and had to lower my saddle by almost 2cm! I made the adjustment, went for a ride yesterday and flippen hell - no more excruciating back pain (touch wood) - I mean WTF. None of the bike fitters that I've been to used the 120mm measurement from the back of the saddle, I'll be sure to let them in on your secret. Thanks Coach - you're a legend 🤟
Thank you for this...adjusted down a small margin and forward a bit from your other videos!
👍👍👍👍
Excellent info in detail not seen elsewhere
Thank you 🙏👍👍👍👍
Thank you - I am new to the sport and this is clear and easy to follow.
Thank you Johnny 👍
This is the only video on RUclips that instructs to do the heel method without cycling shoes , do you mind sharing why without the cycling shoes , isn’t that will result in closing the knee angle more adding the shoes later ??
Not sure why anyone would share info saying you do it with shoe on. When we fitted pros we would aim for knee angle of 29-33 degrees - even this is aggressive and didn’t suit sprinters! So if u want to have your leg completely locked out then you are never going to stabilise your pelvis and you will also put your hamstring under immense strain.
I show it with shoe off and also get people to do both sides to show they have different flexibilities on each hip etc.
Remember that this is just a crude starting point but it can work.
Please don’t do with shoes on as your saddle will be too high 👍
@@BulletproofCycling thank you for the detailed reply. I will try that today, don’t take my comment in any negative way, I follow your videos and techniques and I find your approach unique and different and I like that.
@@aviationworld6029 thank you 🙏
Simple method. explained in easy words! Love it .
Thank you 🙏
Hi, if I use the method wie with measuring the inseam times 0,883, I will not be able to touch the pedal with my heal. If taking the heal methode, do I have to reach the pedal with the heal WITHOUT shoes??? I realy need help. It is very confusing.
Thank you coach for putting this information out for free. Appreciate what you are doing for the riding community.
I have problems with my bike fit since ....forever , I almost lost my confidence that I will ever fix it , adjustment for heel method , should be performed without my shoes, great tip for both parts , I will try that and adjust for lower leg ( my feeling that left has some imbalance )
Good luck 🤞
Brilliant, I have always struggled to get my saddle right. Will give this a go.
I hope it helps Alan. 👍
Thanks for your videos. Love your content. Do you have any tips to , heal or fix tight glutes and quads?
I often share daily routines of stretches - you don’t have to do anything advanced but aim to do it every day and often twice a day!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. In your videos, can you please show the correct way for a male pelvis to sit on the saddle? A few times you have said "she" or "her", but I'm not sure if you meant that pelvis was female or if you are referring to the bike as a ship. I'm no doubt wrong, but I always thought the wide part of the saddle was the place to put the ischial tuberosities In your videos, you place the ischial tuberosities either side of the thin part of the saddle where the midpoint "x" is. I'm getting painful proximal hamstring tendinopathy after crit racing and I'm now wondering if that is because I should be sitting further forward on the saddle.
Same for male - you position in the middle which is approx at that 120mm point I mention.
Sorry to hear about your problem. I have seen it in runners and cx riders. Isometric glute bridge exercises can help but lots of other helpful drills (one being sone tweaks to sitting posture) I hope you get it fixed
Many thanks for the content, not seen the heel on pedal method without shoes before this meant dropping my saddle a whopping 15mm , I'll let you know the results 😉
You are the best on RUclips. I appreciate your videos.
Haha thank you. My videos are just usually quick footage that I catch after I see clients. Nice to hear that you like it 👍👍👍
Thanks coach for the explanation but there's a little issues here with the cranks length if the cranks is too long maybe 175 or something like that and the Rider is a shorter one the saddle height is effected by the cranks length for example your perfect cranks length is 165mm and your new bike has a 175 mm cranks length you should get your saddle lower by 10 mm in the new bike + the 3 or 5 mm for shoes and shorts stack
Love your videos. Always informative without being boring
Thank you 🙏
Great video, thanks. But, forgive my thickness, what or where is the "bottom bracket"?
Where your pedal arm joins the bike 👍
Hi coach, are you resting heels to pedals without shoes, just barefoot test? Straight down perpendicular to ground? Also will you have video on saddle size? What if saddles too wide or too narrow? Thanks!
Without shoes 👍👍
Thanks for the video. The bottom of the measurement got cut off in your video. What is the bottom bracket?
On the side opposite where your chain is you’ll have a central point where the crank arm joins the bike. It might be hollow. 👍
All your vids are great. But id like know if same principles apply for mt bikes? . but im trying to set up a xc bike for some road training and a vid on the differences or compromises needed for mt bikes would be great.
Great idea. Thanks 🙏 will do
Hey coach. I adjusted my saddle to follow your tips in this video. I noticed that my power increased thru my climb. The annoying aches in my rhomboids are gone as well. But the problem is I feel my quads burn more quickly. I don’t get any tension in my hams and glutes. Do I increase saddle height again? Thanks much! Your video is a blessing!
Thanks for sharing.
It could be that your glutes are not activating fully (or they need some strength work) try pushing up 5mm again and pushing forward 5mm! The forward position can help get the glutes more involved in pedal stroke. Try doing some deep squats before you cycle as well. 👍👍
Thanks mate. Appreciate the videos. Very helpful.
Thanks for the feedback
regarding saddle height in relation to riding more toe down; not extremely however and also having big feet for my size; I think. my height 172cm leg length 85cm shoe size 45
your advice is so amazing. I found your site by accident. can you give some advice?
thank you
Very kind 👍👍👍
Thanks for the tips! 🚴🚴🚴
My pleasure Dimitris 👍
so my seat was already set at inseam minus 5mm. However, I filmed from behind, and there was quite a bit of rocking to reach heal down. so I dropped it a good bit more. tonights zwift should be interesting
👍👍👍
Hi , just subscribed your channel and love it 😍 I am new in cycling and sorry if this is a silly question but could you please show where did you measured for the length??? I can’t see from where to the top of the seat 🤷🏻♀️ thank you in advance
How about the x1.09 from pedal method , as it takes care of the crank lenght ?
Yes that can work. However, when I create bike dimensions for riders I create crank length for them based on limb and flexibility analysis. When you use the measures I share I am assuming you are on a bike that fits you. However, crank length is important if you have a lot of hip impingement or your reach is too long and stack is low. I plan to do some more videos on crank length 👍👍👍
Thanks a lot coach , you saved my life
I was riding in a really low position , i had knee problems , and i was outputing like 70% of the possible power
Thanks to you the power meter is screaming :D
Happy to help!
Thanks for sharing. I always struggle with saddle height. My right hip and leg are a bit forward (few cm when I stand), also my foot is toeing outwards. It's nightmare to set up the saddle height without feeling pain in my right hip. I will try your way, hope it will be better than what I was doing.
Keep me posted Patryk
@@BulletproofCycling The pain in the right hip is less, but still noticible. I changed the cleat position as per your instructions, but I had to move them back 10mm (left) and 16 mm (right - with inward rotation) like in your great tutorial, because cleats position dead under the ball of my foot did not feel comfortable.
It all feels a bit better, but I'm thinking of moving the saddle few mm up, while I feel a bit compression in my knees. Also, I feel 'too forward' on the saddle so I will probably move it back slightly - to be honest, I'm waiting for your video re. how to set up f&a position properly, because your advises are superb.
I would love to go for bike fit, but in London it's not easy...
@@patrykdziopa8812 in the next few weeks I am going to do a static measurement of a rider. If you can repeat these measurements then I can help you with an x/y geometry 👍👍👍 this will hopefully give you a good reference point 👍
@@BulletproofCycling That's brilliant! Can't wait! All the best :)
Excellent video. Thank you
One question. You set a marker 120mm from the rear and measure up to that marker from the center of the BB. If you have a non flat saddle, where do you measure too? Do I put a straight edge on the saddle, or do I go to the center of the saddle? In the video it looks like you measured to the center of the saddle in height. Not the top of the saddle. Can you explain that one?
always measure to the top of the saddle as different saddles have different stack heights. I use 120mm as my standard point as I measure body limb measurements to various points of the bike. This makes it easier for me to use limb length against bike geometry. If you use a consistent point on your saddle for each measure then it will help. Hope that helps
Measure from the center of the bottom bracket? At center of pedal spindle?
I always do my measuring from BB but obviously it depends what type of measurement you are using. 👍👍
Bottom bracket or the middle of the bracket????? Some illustrations will be welcome.
Thanks for your time
I always measure from the middle of bottom bracket 👍
thanks for the info coach!
Thanks Paulo 👍
Hi there. I’m interested in getting a fit after cycling for best part of 40 odd years club riding.Do you bring your own bike and then those jig sizes are transmitted onto your road bike. Changing bar and stems at an extra cost obviously . Thanks.
I have a booking system on my website you can check out. It will let you leave info etc and then I can reply with info that is specific 👍👍👍
@@BulletproofCycling thanks for your reply
Hi Scott! I love your channel and appreciate all the content you provide. Could you address why saddle bounce occurs particularly at higher RPMs, please? My apologies if I missed it in one of your videos.
I recently purchased a new bike and got a set up sitting on the bike. The position felt ok on the bike but I could barely touch the ground with my feet. I was in real danger of toppling off. I had to lower the seat.
Hope you are progressing now 👍👍
Yes thanks, I have lowered the seat an inch and a half but I think its a tad low, so I will take your advice and raise it 5mm and see how I go. 👍
Interesting you advocate heel method on the bike without shoes. Most others I watch advocate with shoes on.
Lemond method always been shoes off but I find that measurement never works for me. It’s about 30mm lower for some reason. (and I use 170 cranks on the road bike and 165 cranks on the TT bike)
Hey Colin I have never done the heel measurements with shoes on. You would struggle to get even the minimal knee angle needed be to even partly efficient.
Sounds like you may have similar issues to me in that your flexibility is different on each side.
I never use either method actually in studio as I can measure efficiency at different heights but they are good starting points. However, as you have noticed, you need to tweak to suit you 👍👍
Hi Colin, hi Coach! I have the exact same issue with a difference of about 30mm with 165 cranks. However, the lower position feels a lot more stable. If I raise the saddle I tend to slide to its front while pushing harder. Can you confirm that this is common between the two methods?
Hi Coach! Your videos have been a great help to improving my riding posture. Do these methods for measuring saddle height and fore-aft apply for folding bicycles where the bottom bracket is not directly under the seat tube?
Saddle height similar but I just set saddle fore/aft in the middle 👍👍
thinking of the way to set leg length at the start of the video,could you remove one crank arm and rotate it 180deg and refit so both pedals are at the bottom(not sure you can do that on road cranks but we can on mtb) ,that way you can have both feet at the lowest at the same time so you know you are not leaning to one side as you check each leg?
I have ability in studio to easily change crank length and show riders the difference. I may share some footage of this. Could make interesting viewing 👍👍👍
@@BulletproofCycling that would be cool to see..i meant to say rotate the crank arm 180 degrees not mm in my reply...meds not kicked in yet lol
@@davegee124 ah got you - 😂😂👍👍
Rides great.Feels great.Looks great.
Now I know why my left SI joint is so stiff, its that pelvic rotation that is occurring as I have less flexibility on my LHS, I better adjust my seat as you outline, great stuff and less trips to the chiro
Thanks Peter 👍
Hi Scott. I've seen plenty of videos on this and most of them do the heel method with shoes on. Does it make a difference? I'm thinking with out shoes is correct as it leads to a more angled leg when you put your shoes back on.
Hey Charlie. Yeh shoes off always. It’s a very basic method and obviously has limitations but it’s a great starting point. Especially if you do both legs and really dial into the difference you have. Enjoy and thanks for engaging in my content 👍
@@BulletproofCycling thanks for the answer . It makes sense to me then go by how, it feels after half an hour or so on the bike. Top man Scott 👌👍
Hi coach, I have a question. Do you measure the heel to pedal with or without the cycling pants on.
I adjusted saddle for and aft to the 120mm, the bars with the mummy method, the cleats in the right placa ( they were to far in the front) stack hight is also in the ballpark but my back still is sour a couple of days after a long ride on regular intensity.
I do know my hamstrings are tight, but I lowered the saddle so far that my thig mussles were burning like h*ll.
Hope you can give some advice here
Keep up the video's they're very usefull and fun to watch 👍👍
Great video, thank you for posting it. Love all the knowledge coming through. My two questions are (1) is the Lemond measurement taken from the ‘centre’ of the bottom bracket (ie.not from the top of the BB shell) and (2) did the two methods shown give a comparable seat height, or was there any discrepancy between the two?
Thanks again for posting.
Stephen. (One of the ageing cyclists at 69, coming up to 50 years on the bike😳)
PS. If I remember correctly Greg Lemond had very particular biometric measurements which were reflected in his later frame designs.
Hey Stephen - thanks. Lemond method is measured from centre of BB to top of saddle.
It’s really just a guide as I mention in video. It can help give you a good starting point.
Thanks for engaging in the content 👍👍👍
So where my sit bones place on my saddle should be aligned with the post? It’s a gel seat so when I get off I can see where my bones are. My inseam is 73.152 cm and my length from my petals to my seat is 86.995 I’m 5’11, 204 lbs how does that sound
That’s a good neutral starting point 👍
I’m trying to lower the saddle and see if I like it
Hi, I’ve recently started to feel pain on my left knee (medial collateral ligament), however, no pain or issues with hips/pelvis. Actually, it’s been about a month now. I’ve made adjustments to my cleat and seems to be all right. My right knee is perfectly fine. I also feel my saddle height is fine, but do you think I should check this measurement to be sure anyway? Could the height be the culprit also? Great and helpful videos! Thanks!
It could be for sure but if your cleat movement has fixed it then we’ll done
I'm not too crazy about the LeMond method, since it doesn't take crank length into account. I've had better results just doing the heel thing, to be honest. Or, more recently, multiplying my inseam by 1.07 and then subtracting the crank length in cm to get the distance between the bottom bracket and saddle. (My inseam, 85.5 cm * 1.07 = 91.5 cm; subtract 17cm crank length to get 74.5 cm from the bottom bracket to the midpoint of the saddle.)
Yep, like I said, if you use heal measure from both sides you get better length than Lemond method. Sounds like you have yours dialled in. I am actually starting some new research on crank length. Few different things to look at - will share all 👍👍
120mm? I' ll try that. If i do move it forward, do i need to adjust the saddle height as well? By how much?
I just checked mine and it's 140mm from the back of the saddle. I notice that sometimes when i do laps and get on the drops, i tend to move a little forward in my seat.
👍👍👍
OMG you look great for 50 years old! I wanna be you when I’m 50! Nice videos by the way. I love your approach and tone.
Haha must be the light
Very useful content. Subscribed and liked.
Thank you Earl 👍
What about crank length, how does that play into the equation?
It matters. In my experience it is more important in shorter riders and especially older riders with hip joint issues. I am presently working on some projects with my own clients who range from 155 - 175mm cranks.
@@BulletproofCycling I run 170 . Would I add 17cm to the measurement?
Thanks
I love your videos. Very good knowledge on a complex subject. I have a question. Does the saddle height and the for after position will be affected by using biking shoes and spd/cleats? Do I need to do some changes?
Hi think I answered in pre you’d comment (hopefully 👍)
@@BulletproofCycling yes...than you very much
When i do this i get around 72,4 for my 82 inseam. But that is way to high for me. I ride with 71cm of seat height and have no pain what so ever. As soon as i creep it up 5mm my pedalstroke starts getting choppy.
So maybe this method is not for everyone but i still like your vids coach! Keep em coming.
Yep as I say most people are between the Lemond method and the heel method BUT there needs to be adaptation in relation to flexibility etc. Thanks for sharing 👍
Scott, you seem to be placing the sit bones of your hip model outside the edge of the saddle rather than directly on top of the saddle. They seem to straddle the saddle (poetic) at the 120mm point. Is that correct?
My pelvis is very narrow and only for demo but the 120 works for almost all riders if they are on the correct saddle width. I will mention about this when I use this pelvis - sit bones will sit flat on saddle 👍👍👍
@@BulletproofCycling Thanks. Are you saying that the sit bones should fit flat on the saddle at that 120 point or simply that that measurement is used as a starting point for centering over the seat post?
@@percyfaith11 it’s the point I use to measure but you will generally sit flat just behind it when you sit down 👍👍
@@BulletproofCycling Very good. I've been sitting way too far back on the saddle and I've noticed better comfort by sliding forward a bit.
@@percyfaith11 see if you can move the saddle back a little
Sir practice plan available?
Not sure I follow
Is the measurement made from the center of the pedal crank?
Bottom bracket
@@BulletproofCycling What bracket? Are you referring to a part of the frame of the bicycle or some bracket that is attached to the frame? The center of the pedal crank would make sense. Is there a place in the video where you actually point to this bracket? Thanks for your replies.
Thank you for the video , i have a question have you ever noticed that the bike is kind of slunting to one side so that you can seem to push more power on leg compared to the other , is there a way to correct that , thanks
Hi - if this happens when you are sitting on the saddle then it could be that your pelvis is tilting to compensate a high saddle. The bike will move side to side when you stand on the pedals and when your exert max power. When I measure pedal forces I often see different levels of Newton’s at peak torque angles in left and right feet. However, you would need to see a fitter with similar 3D camera. However, have someone video you from behind. If you can place stickers or marks on left and right pelvis that are at equal heights then you can see what happens through the pedal stroke. If the hip is not dropping to one side then it could be a leg length issue or maybe a crank issue. Start with video of hip and feel free to stay in touch 👍
Thank you very much i will.
Love your vedos I am new to road bikes been MTN. Bike racer for years. Thought I knew the right seat hiegtband position but like you said after a hour or so center of my but starts to hurt and feels like I always have to push my put back in my saddle. Any idea of what to do. I do rides of 4+ hours and would love not to have to move around so much.
Check it’s not tilting down. Try moving that rear point you search for closer to start with so try nudging 5 mm forward. This might need a little nudge upwards as well but check it out and see how it feels 👍
@@BulletproofCycling I am going for a ride now that is what I thought so will gust move it a little froward first. Thanks
Hello. I have done the heel to pedal method today as I suffer bad with right side Lower back pain on long rides. I noticed my left foot keeps contact with the pedal but my right doesn't. Had two bike fits due to my pain and still no better off. I have lowered the seat so both heels keep contact now, yet to ride it. What would be causing the right leg to loose contact but the left not? Any help would be appreciated as I am near giving up on cycling with the pain I get. Thank you Neil
Hi Neil, I actually have similar issue. I have damaged my hamstring several times and damaged my pelvis in crash so flexibility worse in right hand side. It’s very common for most folks to have asymmetry.
I would work on your pelvis stability and stretching those hamstrings.
Work to the height that works with weaker side (like you have done) but keep doing the work off the bike and you’ll see a difference on the bike 👍
@@BulletproofCycling thank you. I will work on what you said. I also have a clicking in my lower back/hip right side above my bum cheek 😄. Waiting for a referral now as it could be snapping hip something to do with the tendon flicking over the bone. Its very painful when riding but sets in about the 30 mile mark. As soon as I stop and stretch it goes pretty instantly but will appear again in another 10 miles. Will have to stick with the shorter rides for now I think and try not to aggrivate things. Have you ever had them symptoms? Thank you so much for your reply.
@@madaboutgolfs I have not seen that before. I hope you get it sorted👍
I’d love to see your thoughts on mountain bike handlebar position. The mummy test for road works great, I assume you can do the same with MTB bars.
MTBs usually require shorter stems and longer handlebars than road bikes, so the mummy test might not be applicable.
Nino Schurter is 1.73M tall, and i think he uses a 680mm handlebar for his XC MTB. I forgot the stem length and angle, also i don't know how wide his shoulders are. Downhill and Enduro might need longer handlebars for the same height of rider.
@@sepg5084 His stem is a 90, -40 degree, but if you took a straight line dimension it would come out shorter
The two methods give a drastic difference in height.... which is best?
Start lower Christoper. If you can’t get to a bike fitter then use the first method that I share and make sure you do both legs and then remove 3-5mm to start with 👍
So I just found this video and made the adjustments using the no shoe heel on pedal method. Based on your other tutorials, I thought I had my saddle position fixed well, but after doing the adjustment without my shoes on and readjusting center with the 120 position again, I have ended up lowering my saddle more. Turns out I was reaching quite a bit with my left left when compared with my right...so I adjusted for my left leg. However, I now find my knees are bit more forward from 90 degrees. The insides of my palms were also slightly past the hoods. I slid the saddle aft a bit and then remeasured the 120mm...turns out I ended up a bit more centered over the post. I tested my reach and feels like my palms are now direcly on the top of the hoods. Have I adjusted correctly? My knees are still a bit forward from 90 degrees though and seems my knees come up higher with the shoes on when pedaling.
It sounds like you still have height you can move the saddle up. Just experiment with 5mm and see how that feels 👍👍
Oh my bloody god man, I’ve done every single method possible, including trigonometry and a make-shift angle finder and I’m still not there: I’ve just come to accept it! Multiplying my inseam by 1.09 gives me a saddle height of exactly 1 metre, but using an app, it suggests that it’s too low! I never took it beyond that because my right leg, which is shorter than my left, was already pretty outstretched. I have managed to relieve my knee pain by dropping it by 1.5cm, which aesthetically, looks correct. However, my left foot is always toe down, even at the top of the pedal stroke. Have been advised to move seat back and cleats forward to gain more leverage towards ankle but those efforts have been largely fruitless. Am I losing any efficiency by pedaling with toes down all the time or shall I just accept this as a natural position? I honestly cannot alter the position anymore than I already have done!?
I hope you find a solution 👍
If you really need it solved, go get a professional bike fit.
The second way of measuring does not account for the crank length. Most racers use a longer crank length than the regular rider. I had this issue for a very long time when I was racing. Until I found a fitter that was racing and understood what I was doing
Do you measure the seat height from the center of the bottom bracket?
I do yes
Why does x .883 gives me a higher seat height? Compared to heel on pedal method?
It’s common for this to happen. I prefer the heal method on both sides. But both measurements give you a range 👍
Hi I have been watching your video on seat height and seat fore and aft. I have back and neck problems. After about 20 miles of riding my lower back really starts to ache, mainly on right side but eventually right across and I have to keep getting off to relieve it. My neck also really aches as I seem to keep having to lift my head to view far enough in front. My problem is I am 6ft 4 and long legs. So If I have my seat in a position that seems to fit my stretch when I tip forward, then my knees are too far in front of the centre point on the bottom bracket and I feel scrunched up with my legs. If I set it up which seems a good option form my rotating legs then I think I maybe am stretching too far. Also I have my bars as high as poss but perhaps I need them a bit higher. Its all very frustrating. I also have my right leg 1.5 inches shorter than my left. I do have raised shoes but it is my Femur thats shorter so maybe this is causing my back problems? Can you offer and ideas to please so I can have a comfortable ride. Best wishes Johna
I will plan to answer this in live session as other riders have this issue. I will attempt to link you to video when I do it 👍👍👍
I had a bike fit recently and having changed the stem to a 90mm (from 110mm) I still feel a bit stretched. Is there a recommended minimum for stem length. I know it shouldn't bo too short but thinking about going to 80mm to see how that works. Thanks in advance and thanks for the great content.
I have seen high performing females on 60mm. The steering arc changes and at high speeds this makes it ‘twitchy’ but there are ways around it - maybe a video!! I don’t see an issue with 80mm - ask around and see if anyone has one you could try before buying???
@@BulletproofCycling Thanks. My mate actually has the same bike as me and uses a 60mm (just found out after writing the comment) which is says works for him.
I've asked around and hopefully can try a couple of options. Thanks.
Hi there, I have the same issue in one leg doing the heel measure. Do I need to necessary fit wedges to compensate or just adjust the other leg with the shorter one? Thx
Try and avoid wedges etc to start with. And just to shorter side and see how you go. Try and increase your stability and strength work 👍
Should you measure with bibs on and thanks for a great show
Bib shorts 👍 I make all my clients do that but there is minimal difference but it’s good to do and something I should have mentioned 👍
@@BulletproofCycling Great video. I also noticed you did it without shoes. Is this correct?
@@47Seagull yes Stephen - without shoes on. 👍
@@BulletproofCycling I've used that method but always with shoes and bib shorts on. Been struggling with my XR3 for a few months now, despite having had a Retul bike fit. Will try your method. Many thanks.
Is your saddle fore/aft position ok? If you have your height and inside leg measurements from your fit I could create a saddle fore/aft position for you when I am back in studio tomorrow??
Hi coach, quick question...do i measure 12cm start from the back of the saddle or 12cm from the padding, btw its the pro stealth saddle. Thanks
12 from back of saddle 👍👍
Will try it, thanks coach
Great video. Just a quick question, coach. My measured inseam is 80,7mm. If I calculate uing the numeric methods, saddle height comes a lot too high comparing to your method with bare foot on pedal minus 3-5 mm (almost 1,7cm difference). Is that normal? I have small feet (EU40), short torso, cranks 165mm, XS frame and cleats moved maximum backward (feel my feet more stable) - I'm an individual difficult to fit :)
Yes that’s quite normal. Like I say, it’s a crude method but it gives you are start point. I am 84cm inside seam and ride with 74cm saddle height. I am 178cm tall.
When I do heel method you can see me left side is under greater pressure. So I adjust to that. I am riding different saddles a lot as I test bikes so always having to tweak saddle height due to stack differences in saddles.
Just work of the least flexible leg and you’ll be fine 👍👍👍 hope this helps and thanks for getting involved in the channel
@@BulletproofCycling I think, that the heel method is really a good start point. I might be wrong, but according to me, the Lemond method that derived from the 80's, when most of the road saddles were round shape, will result with saddle too high for flat saddles. When we measure inseam, we don't measure it to the point we actually sit on. That can result in different heights (lemond vs stocking heel method). Just choose the comfort and raise the saddle a bit if I feel my quads burning too much :)
Hi I did both techniques and the one with my heel in socks is 4cm lower then measuring the inseam technique is this possible?
I got a Retul fitting and he raised the saddle about an inch.. it feels really high now, and I fail the heel test (can’t touch the pedal). Is it likely it’s too high?
This seems strange that you can’t touch the pedals. Defo too high!!!
Helpful video but with an I Phone I couldn’t see your feet so made understanding some measurements a bit tricky in both portrait and landscape
Marcus
Sorry, I am crap at capture - big goal to get better
Just out of curiosity whats your take on 10 degress higher within the working range of seat height? I’ve seen a couple of bike fitters who has medical background and both has same take on seat height. I think the reason for it is my hip issues and open hip angle. But the issue both couldn’t solve was the rocking hips when pedalling but when I so single leg drill i don’t rock at all. I think it must be the hip surgeries i had that threw the mechanics. Whats your take or have you come across any riders who has hip issues? Thanks.
Hi - when you say 10 degrees, do you mean 10 mm higher?
If so, then I am guessing that they have prescribed this on a bike that has very short reach and high stack height (handlebar height) Hip angle is impacted by these metrics as well as crank length. Your pelvis will have some level of rocking but if you have on one side only then maybe you have clear leg length discrepancy? You may also have an issue with saddle width and maybe Q factor (distance feet are spread apart when on pedals) If you are too narrow you may rock. Feel free to send me an email if you want. 👍
ok, we measure from BB to seat, what about shorter cranks? it sure isn't same measurement for 175mm cranks and 165mm cranks
Using the LeMond method I get a height of 762mm with the heel to pedal method I get 750mm. What's going on?
Start with the lower height and experiment
@@BulletproofCycling My inseam is 857mm, 750mm is the lowest my saddle has been in 15 years of cycling. I have never been comfortable but 750mm is the best it's been. Im 68, does that affect things? I ride about 7000 miles pa. Ive had about 5 bike fits.
Genius ! 🚵🏿🚵🏿🚵🏿♂🚵🏿♂🚲🚲
My ideal saddle height is 74cm. I placed the saddle at 73.5 and it is much more comfortable
Excellent 👍👍👍
@@BulletproofCyclingWhat do you think about fitting a smaller handlebar (42cm to 40cm) and longer stem?
@@paoloviola1 if the bars match your shoulder width then it will make a big improvement
Nice one, I struggle with my saddle hight also. My inseam is 93.5cm that results in 82.56cm per Lemond. However I can't reach the pedals with this saddle heigth. With method one I have to lower to about 78cm. That seems a big difference to me.
Try it Roger and see but it may be more to do with your fore/aft. However, try the lower height first 👍
@@BulletproofCycling Thank you Scott, SQLab Saddle is centered with a zero offset seatpost, knee cap roughly over pedal axle.
So far I had the saddle height on 80cm (doing the heel method with shoes on), but had slight knee issues on the left leg.
@@romube shame I can’t see you but keep me posted 👍👍👍👍
@@BulletproofCycling Thank you Scott. I will play around with what I learn from your videos. 👍
@@BulletproofCycling I had it on 78.6cm today, rode 134km with 2200m elevation. Felt nice, now after the ride slight sore spot below the left knee cap, all else is fine.
The Lemond method gives me 695mm after multiplying by .883. Saddle height currently set at 680mm from center of bottom bracket to the 120mm ref point. Even that 680 is way too high for the heel test in stocking feet. I have to slump my hip off the saddle in order to have my heel on the pedal at bottom dead center. It's just fine if I do it with my bike shoes. It's even further off the pedal when the pedals are at furthest point from the saddle (just before bottom dead center). I have 170mm crank arms installed. Frame is sized for my height and stand over the top bar.
This is a surprising difference in results between the 2 methods, at least in my case.
Sure is - I would use heel method and take from both sides! Get the one that feels least flexible. They are both very basic measures but between them you can usually get a good starting point. Remember that saddle fore aft and cleat positioning and the crank length different the outcome using both these methods so don’t be too alarmed.
Hello Scott, my saddle is way lower than lemond when I use heel with no shoes method. is that correct?
A lot lower suggests it’s too low but you need to just adjust slowly to accommodate your fitness journey. I would start with only 5mm increases and dial that in for at least a month. Once you hit 10mm increase I would move forward 5mm.
However, it may be that your present height works for your flexibility and fitness so don’t worry to much 👍👍👍
Mine is the same way. Even with mine set 18mm below the Lemond number my heel in stockinged feet, is off the pedal at the bottom of the stroke.
@@percyfaith11 that seems very long - is your crank too long?
@@BulletproofCycling 170mm crank arms. I'm 5'7" with inseam of 79cm. I don't know how to tell if the 170mm crank is correct size.
@@percyfaith11 it should be fine 👍 I would set your saddle height based on heel comfortable on pedal in socks.
I turned 51 this year. Started biking again after more than 20 years. I did 3 hours yesterday and boy, does my butt hurt.
Give it a few days and it’ll hopefully calm down 👍👍👍
I can't figure it out! Made no sense for me. I measured my inseam as 84.5*0.883=74.5cm. On the bike, however, heal flat on the pedal was 71cm! Through the line 120mm from the back fo the saddle too. Raising up 35mm would be terrible for me.
Yeh it can throw up issues - you may have long limbs for your height. If you are having issues at 71 then just raise by 5mm and ride - do ride and review and keep with slight adjustments
Lemond method: 76 cm, Heel method: 73 cm whats best?
Heel method give me more comfort.
Always go with what feels more comfortable to start with. Thanks for sharing 👍
Hi, what about saddle height for heel dropers? I have always felt that if i put my saddle with this methods i get a very high saddle height has i´m a heel droper, i made some research and there is a perception that for heel dropers the height could be 2 to 3 cm lower, is that right? I havent find a Bike fitter that could fit me right on my bike.... constant lower back pain... neck... etc...
Thanks for your work! :)
Like I say the Lemond measurements can help get a starting point for you. Extreme heel drop may be helped with tweaking it lower but play around with it but 20mm should be enough. Tweak cleats back to take pressure of calf and make sure you experiment with saddle fore position. If too far back then you may struggle. Low back pain can be a number of issues but if only sore on the bike then try and make the alterations one at a time to try and narrow down issue. Also work on that hip stability work 👍👍
Anyone else getting totally different results from the two methods? First one: 75,5cm saddle hight, Second one: 78,9cm - How can that be?
Don’t worry it happens. Your heel measurement will give you a good starting point 👍
I don't think this method works for me. My inseam is 742.95 mm, which means my saddle height should be 742.957 according to the 109% method. I have my saddle set at 835 mm. Any lower and I develop pain under my kneecap and quadriceps tendinitis.