Fighter or Barbarian? - D&D: Optimized #8
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- Опубликовано: 3 июл 2024
- Note: This build has now been updated per Tasha's Cauldron of Everything - See here for details: • How Tasha's Changes Ev...
Fighter vs. Barbarian! Which strength-based character does the best sustained damage per round (DPR) in D&D 5e? Which one takes best advantage of the famous Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master feats? Or is there a way to multi-class them to be better than either alone? Come find out on this week's episode!
Character Concept:(0:00)
Levels 1-6:(11:02)
Levels 7-9:(18:32)
Levels 10-13:(23:45)
Levels 14-17:(24:12)
Final Thoughts:(30:45)
Links to math/graphs for this episode:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Sustained DPR Comparisons (3 Tabs): docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
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Shouldn't that last level be barbarian instead of fighter for the +1 to divine warrior, because you are taking an ASI either way?
@@brettmajeske3525 sure - good call, though of course I sort of arbitrarily stop at 17 - were you to continue on you might get more out of the 15th level Rune Knight feature, for example.
@@DnDDeepDive I wasn't thinking of that. I know when a build stops matters. I enjoy Treantmonk, but sometimes his builds do not come online until too late to be useful.
Don’t take this as an insult because it isn’t. You could knock a lot of time off these videos if you just reduced the verbal pauses. I know it’s difficult and I don’t think reading a script is the best answer but trying to eliminate umm and uh and unnecessary uses of “and” will make it easier to follow you and reduce the time on these videos by a good bit
In Baldurs Gate III, there are a number of changes that have been made to both classes.
Notably, the berserker subclass no longer gives you exhaustion. How do you think that influences the discussion? Is berserker strictly better than battle master now?
Or do you think a multiclass (battle master 11 / berserker 3) is ideal?
Ar least when the full game comes out, I would very much be interested in your opinion :)
Ah, the "Fightarian". Fighter Barbarian.
Not to be confused with his brother, the Barbarian Fighter, aka the "Barber"
That being said, a party of 4 Barbarian Fighters who call themselves "The Barbershop Quartet" is actually pretty dope
@@weebikarp1806 lol! Sign me up!
@@weebikarp1806 THey gotta take 1 level in bard too then.
My first time playing DnD, so thanks for helping with my first build, guy that looks like Homelander.
rofl! I was just watching "The Boys" yesterday and thinking... "damnit, I gotta cut my hair."
Homelander and the deep’s love child 😂
This aged well
@@DavidJamesSlattery Just checking in still aged well
@@dylancumpston2524 why would you make me read this with my eyes?
Just a heads up, Rage reads: "You have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
" even from magical sources.
Right - I sometimes forget that, as long as it's those damage types, you still resist even if magical. An important distinction!
Level 1:(see above) [fighter 1, race & fighting-style]
Level 2:(@13:57) [fighter 2]
Level 3:(@14:38) [fighter 3 & sub-class]
Level 4:(@15:37) [fighter 4 & ASI]
Level 5:(@16:40) [fighter 5]
Level 6:(@16:53) [barbarian 1]
Level 7:(see above) [barbarian 2]
Level 8:(@20:53) [barbarian 3 & sub-class]
Level 9:(@22:49) [fighter 6 & ASI]
Level 10(-) [fighter 7 + did not talk about it]
Level 11:(see above {10-13}) [fighter 8 & ASI]
Level 12-13:(-) [fighter 9 & 10 + skipped]
Level 14:(see above) [fighter 11]
Level 15:(@29:42) [fighter 12 & ASI]
Level 16:(-) [fighter 13 + skipped]
Level 17:(@30:09) [fighter 14 & ASI]
At level 20 with a 3 level dip in assasin rogue you can solo an ancient dragon. This is because you have 7 attacks in round one all hit with crits if you go first.
Yes! This is the sort of comparative analysis that I crave! :-D
Thanks ;)
Rage gives resistance to magical piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage too.
Also zealot barbarians Divine fury feature is only applicable on your turn, not neither creatures turn. So it doesn’t happen on opportunity attacks or reaction attacks on another creatures turn.
Also divine fury’s description doesn’t specify which attack you can put it on vs a creature, but that if it is used, it has to be against the first creature you hit on your turn. Weird but different than “the first time you hit a creature... once per your turn...” or “when you hit a creature you can... once per your turn”
Polearm master helps add more damage per ROUND. The reaction trigger is usually more of a reason to choose it like Sentinel getting to again have a reaction attack. The added attack in the character's turn is something GWM can give often, but likely not every round. So PAM adds more significantly to the damage per Round.
Barbaians are better per encounter but taper off in the day since they also need lots of healing for all those hit points. Fighters have the armor so they take less hits.
My son would love this...sharing with him! Thanks again, Colby! Your ideas are amazing! Love your videos!
I’m starting my first campaign soon with some more experienced friends. I’ve been really enjoying learning more about DND, and this was a really enjoyable and interesting video! I hadn’t realized you could even combine Barbarian and Fighter classes, I was actually trying to learn about their differences so I could choose between them lol, but I am stoked to have learned all these cool combos you can do as the game continues.
Thank you for the video!
This is exactly the information I was looking for. Thank you for having this ready when I needed it.
My sub to this channel is well earned.
This is the first time I've looked at the math in the description and may I just say, it is magnificent
Thank you!
This guy is a stud. He gets my desire to be a powerful player in tabletop RPGs. Great video!
Cheers!
Tried the 3 in champion rest in barb build in the past. It was fun, but it wasn't overwhelming. I dig this version!
And Danger Sense vs said dragon (Adv on dex saves vs attacks you can see) love the content dude.
Character concept: the debilitation
Elf, elven accuracy feat, two weapon fighting, slasher feat, champion fighter, 1 level dip warlock genie Dao for proficiency bludgeon damage once on hit, crushed feat.
Basic build comes online at level 7. fighter 6 for 2 feats for slasher/crusher and 1 level warlock for bludgeon if crit fishing.
Not super damaging, but any regular round without advantage on attacks in combat has a 27% chance to “debilitate” 1 target. The creature has disadvantage with ALL attacks until your turn starts again. ALL attacks have advantage against the creature until the start of your turn.
46% chance if you have advantage on your attacks.
Dex combines well with remarkable athlete, as they both improve initiative. +6 initiative at total level 8. Pretty great chance to debilitate a creature before it acts. Great Synergy as you get to do “respectable” damage while making another creature wildly ineffective in almost every way. Bypasses high AC, legendary resistance, and condition immunities.
Gets substantially better with elven accuracy, another attack at fighter level 11, and another extended crit range at 15 fighter.
Thank you for another great video.
I cannot wait to run this build.
Having played it for about 5 sessions now at levels 9 and 10 I can tell you... it's a little heady. "Ok, rolling a d4 for damage on that bonus action... I got a 3 so that's... 22 damage." :)
The weakness of this build is very clear: Ranged oponents and big maps.
I played a build like that in a table where my DM would throw archers, fireball mages and flying enemies at us all the time. In tight spots and chokepoints it was really good tho.
Same. I never really had a moment to shine and my fighter died at level 6 lol.
Love the video. Gave me some good brainstorm nutrition.
Be interested to know how the new crusher/piercer/slasher feats would effect this build
Colby, I am astounded at how much better and smoother your later videos are over this one. The content of all your videos is exceptional, but your execution is so much more professional and smooth over this one (as an example). Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed this video a lot and watched it more than once!
I counted 96 UM's. You have improved so much from this episode! Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed this!
BTW, I wrote this episode up in text format, if you want it Colby.
Ha ha thanks!
Elven accuracy wouldn’t work, as you only get to roll 3 times with int wis char or dex attacks
Beat me to it.
I looked at this too, was going to ask my dm if we could houserule it to use strength as i have an interesting character concept
Toss in Hexblade and you’re in.
@@phantomzero2413 If I'm not mistaken, that would mean you would lose the rage damage. Since Rage needs the attack to use Strength. The extra damage wouldn't be a huge loss, especially since you would get the Hexblades's Curse, but still something to consider.
@@richardtorresmarquez6872 Why would you lose rage? It only matters if you haven't hit or been hit.
I love this! Giving me some great ideas where to take my lv4 half-elf strength fighter! PS, love this channel. New to 5e but I played 1 session of AD&D years ago and ended up rolling up 100's of characters, even though never got to play them.
Welcome! Glad you're enjoying :)
Had a bear barbarian to level 8, which I know is no dip lol, and the rest of the way I went battle master fighter and oh my god. I'd do it again. So fun
Sure it is... Bearbarian Dip for Moon Druid.
Nice, I'm playing a Tortle Barbarian and mixing in Fighter levels is gonna feel so good with action surge.
I hope the changes to Rune Knight in Tasha's Cauldron are good, cuz I think its a perfect fit for a lot of Barbarians that want to be BIIIIG.
It’s so fun in game as well - playing this build in one of my campaigns :)
Hi listened to your VT . Playing your build at 9th level. Went totem wolf rather than bear, only since we had a bear 🐻 barb. All that advantage !
One of my current campaign characters is 3 Ancestral Guaridan, 9 Rune Knight. It is alot of fun. Love being a tank that can consistently do 100damge a round and still have lots of Utility. Great weapons master + Polearm master ftw.
It s so crazy I m watching this for bg3:))) anyone else?
So, one of my favorite builds is using a spear and shield on a minotaur with polearm master, and sentinel feats. What that allows me to do is make an opportunity attack of one enemy when they enter my reach to make them stand still, and then on my turn I can attack another creature to push them back with the hammering horns feature.
But the spear doesn't have reach so hitting them with polearm when they are 5 feet away I don't understand. Then when you go to attack another creature you might be giving up an opportunity attack on yourself.
Thanks for that infos! I already played my halforc totem warrior to lvl 5 (all barbarian lvl with great weapon master) and i want to multiclass with figther.what should i continue with? Should i put all next 15 levels into figther?
Would love to see the barbarian with the fighter dip
For a better overall performance (optimizing for our Offence: Damage and to hit, our Defense especially our HP and AC) I suggest the following changes (I have compiled vs different monsters):
1. Fighting style: defensive, since the +1AC makes your Fighter so much stronger on all future levels
2. Fight with Spear and Shield until you pick the GWM feat, since your Fighter can overcome bigger creature with +2AC for shield even with less damage per turn with a spear.
3. Pick +2 str on 4 lvl and wait with GWM. It is much better vs mid and higher AC monsters and we yet don't have enough "to hit" to pick GWM. We risk getting no advantage with our feat vs many monsters. The Yellow boxes in the Spreadsheet indicates also when GWL have literally no advantage over a +2 str.
4. Then progress like Fighter lvl 5, Barbar lvl 1, Fighter lvl 6 and take GWM and switch to Halbert, Fighter lvl 7, Barbar lvl 2, Barbar lvl 3, and rest in fighter.
In my view you get a Fighter with slightly less early damage but much better survivability in the early levels and almost the same if not al little better after lvl 10.
Creating Quick Monster Stat - DMG pg. 274
The "vanilla" monsters in the Monster Manual have gotta be tuned up ;)
CR 14 would be able to have CR 15 HP (295)
"vanilla" Adult Black Dragon is avg. 195
;) Always tune your monsters up, DMs :D
Great episode! With so many abilities requiring a bonus action can you provide a walk through of optimal 1st 2 rounds of combat? Do we rage first, or use giants might, do we use the bonus action to attack again with the butt of the polearm? Thank you!
Great build, an oldschool badass muscle character. When thinking about the perfect big guy, I always have dilemma between Fighter/Barb multiclass and Paladin with Champion dip.
If you're looking for a "big guy" then the answer is clear: rune knight.
@@TheRobversion1 Great subclass for sure, however, very "magical" also. Does not fit the classic fighter archetype like the Lord of The Rings or Dragonlance Characters. Sometimes when I want to be a big guy fighter/barb, I don't want any magical abilities other than cool magic sword :)
@@jakubkucharczyk5255 you could always reflavor the runes to make it non-magical. i had a party member who reflavored runes as extensions of chi so when he'd do an attack and activate a rune the rune symbols would float in the air much like special attacks in some japanese anime.
Another char build I'm working on but not exactly sure how best to go is abjurer deep gnome with svirfneblin magic feat. I was thinking 1 or 2 lvls of hex warlock for access to armor of agathas. After that just straight abjur wizard.
The concept is the enemy has to break through the abjurer shield before even touching your temp hitpoints. So enemies take alot of damage when attacking you.
And you can keep your abjurer shield maxed out via at will casting of nondetection. Side note if you can find a char to cast warding bond on you it's amazing. Anyways if you looking for a build to optimize would love to hear your thoughts on this one as well.
Ooo... that sounds fun. I need to take break from sustained DPR builds so this could be a good one to add to this list :). Will check it out.
My kind of build I like it
I almost always carry a back up shield and one handed weapon on barbarians, paladins, and fighters for dealing with mooks with low HP because you don't need the additional damage from a larger weapon or GWM making the additional AC more useful as it prevents you from being worn down and accuracy is more important that damage since enemies will die in one or two hits anyways.
I’m making this for a campaign and I am instead going echo knight and ancestral guardian same levels because it makes more sense for roleplay and the major weakness with this build (range attacks) could only be solved with levels into rogue for bonus action dash which would ruin some major damage or echo Knight and I chose echo knight because you can make an extra attack proficiency bonus times per day and that is a significant damage increase
For the primal path on level 3 barbarian, would you consider the bear totem instead of zealot? I never tried any of them, but wonder if the bear rage makes a huge difference to your survivability when with rage. Trading it with the extra 1d6 + 1 damage per round and resurrecting without needing the diamonds.
I had the same idea 🤔 to me it seems easier to make sure to be the last to fall rather than except others to resurrect me (hopefully once they dealt with the combat encounter without their main frontline beat down)
Do you take into account ramp up time for this build? For example, Battlemaster/Zealot only takes one bonus action to start rage. While Rune Knight/Zealot takes two bonus actions for rage and Giant’s Might to kick in. That’s 1 less round of GWM damage.
True! And no, it's something I typically talk about but the number crunching only happens when everything is "on." Definitely something to keep in mind and will have a bigger impact the shorter your encounters are.
So, the damage bump of the great weapon fighting style is so small that I typically take the defense fighting style instead because the +1 AC will help you way more than the insignificant increase in damage. If you wanna reroll damage dice get the savage attacker feat.
If you're thinking to forgo GWF for Defense style and spend a feat to get savage attacker, why not instead take GWF, which is better than savage attacker with extra attacks and two dice weapons, and take a defensive ASI like Dex+2 which nets other bonuses as well, Resilient which can shore up Wis or Dex saves, or Tough which gets double value with rage resistance. I feel like those options are much more impactful than a simple +1 AC
@@angusKaiser yea neither GWF and Savage are really worth it
I would add another dip after fighter 11, to look like this: variant human, fighter 1-5, barbarian 1-3, fighter 6-11, ranger swarmkeeper 1-3 (for favored foe and some spells when you're out of rage, plus the extra d6 of the subclass feature and the defence fighting style, then your final levels are barb 4, ranger 4, and fighter 12. This gives you three ASIs to bump stats or round out your feats (Alert? Sentinel? Crusher/piercer/slasher?). Like you said, fighter doesn't give you much after level 11.
Another option is conquest paladin instead of ranger. Once per short rest you get a +10 to hit, so you can use great weapon master even on high AC enemies.
An elven or half elven champion fighter/barbarian(maybe bear, but you can still with just 2 levels) is honestly one of the best sustained damage builds in the game.
Reckless gives you super advantage with elven accuracy. Champion crits on a 19 or 20(later 18). With super advantage you have a very good chance to crit on every attack.
Bear totem gets you the all important resistance to everything, so you neednt worry too much about opponents getting advantage on you. If your DM wants to give you a magic item just ask for something that grants resistance to psychic damage. And your sweet. You basically have the double the health you should be.
Combine this with gwm+pwm to plough through the enemy lines.
COLBY!!!!!!! 🤩🤩🤩
You just gave me my first BG3 character! Thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU! 😘
Fightarian...I CHOOSE YOU. 😍
Hello, having trouble understanding the formula on the spreadsheet for this episode, like what the difference is between Average Weapon Damage and Average Dice Damage on Attack, and what "any once per round damage" is.
This also gives me a build idea for you.
How about a bare bones build?
When you are only using the free version of Beyond. So no feats, only the basic sub classes... wonder what the best build you could make is! Restrictions breed creativity!
I just finished making a fightarian before looking at this build. I made an echo knight with an ancestral guardian dip. The reason this works is because reckless attack only gives advantage to hit me, not the echo. Ancestral guardian actually makes it so that the enemy I hit with advantage through the echo has disadvantage to attack the echo. I then took sentinel, so that the enemy can't just run from the echo to the real me, they have to try and attack it first with disadvantage, or take the sentinel opportunity attack from the echo and be stuck. It's not often you get to protect yourself using sentinel. The echo can be resummoned with a bonus action as many times as you want. Since my bonus action is being utilised already, and the echo doesn't work very well with polearms due to RAW, I opted to use a greatsword instead. With great weapon fighting affecting both D6's, it has a great average roll. You can also make extra attacks with the echo during your action, so at lvl14 you can hit 8 times with advantage in a single round using action surge(all with the rerolled 2d6 damage dice)
I'd push the envelope further here at tier 2+ and add gloomstalker 3 for dread ambusher. that's 8 attacks at tier 2. and 10 attacks once you hit echo 11, ancestral 3, gloomstalker 3.
@@TheRobversion1 might delay that 3rd attack from fighter a little late for my liking, but I could definitely look at investing in gloom stalker after fighter 11 to get that insane burst damage at lvl17
@@GrrumpyPants imo its theoretical it this point. it really depends on what levels your campaign is ending. I'd also prefer burst over sustained as that is also good defense (enemy is dead on round 1. no need to sustain or to worry about the enemy hurting your party). so levels wise:
i think echo 5, barb 2 is the core.
if i'm theorycrafting for level 10-12, i'm adding the 3 levels of gloomstalker in.
if i'm theory crafting for level 13-15, i'm delaying gloomstalker and going for echo 11. then picking up ranger at 14.
@@TheRobversion1 I built this specifically for a campaign that's going to 20, so I think picking it up later will work best for me. Outside of that, I think the burst is already good enough that the cost every round afterwards would feel too punishing for the benefit you get out of rushing gloomstalker. At the end of the day this class is about creating a lose/lose situation with the echo, if we wanted to focus solely on burst I would probably not even bother with barbarian since gloomstalker already provides advantage on turn 1.
@@GrrumpyPants yup if you're theorycrafting for 20 then rushing to fighter 11 is best. the advantage generation of gloomstalkers are situational and more reliable at ranged. melee attackers (like echo knights) may have more situations that they aren't in shadows. i do agree though that i might drop barbarian and simply go with another advantage generator if i was gloomstalker for the times i won't be in shadows like picking up some sorc/metamagic adept for quicken spell so i can quicken fog cloud + blind fighting style.
For starting high level (like a one shot) Samurai what do you think about Samurai. Rapid Strike gives you another attack (without advantage but still) so that could be nice
I like it, but I'd probably want to do it when multi-classed as a Barbarian with Reckless attack; I know Fighting Spirit can give you guaranteed advantage, but A: only 3 times a day and B: at the cost of your bonus action feels a little underwhelming to me. Reckless attack is a little dangerous, but always having advantage is just so huge, and not having to sacrifice our bonus action is superb - take PAM/GWM and you're talking 5 attacks in a round without Action Surge? Very nice. Admittedly, attacking Recklessly with Rage feels a little ... Un-Samurai, but hey, if nothing else it's different than the stereotype so that could be interesting :).
Barb to level 5 then three levels of rogue (thief) for the extra bonus action. Build is online faster 8th you are set, anything past the is icing all barbarian. You get more rages and the bonus action is up every fight no need for a rest like action surge. If you only have 1-2 combats a day yeah fighter with barb dip is better, but once you starting having 3+ or more combats that bonus action adds up it also gives alot more battle field choices moving engaging or extra bonus polearm attack.
Can you comment on a Barb 2 / Fighter 11 / Rogue 7 , using a shield and using dueling?
You should look into barbarian multiclass around reckless attack and the Shifter Wildhunt race.
With tashas out and the ability to switch around attributes, this race would supplement barbarian dips perfectly.
Shifting as a bonus action gives you your level player level + Con mod in temporary hitpoints and recharges in a short rest.
Wild hunt subrace gives proficiency in survival, which is nice.
Wild hunts shifter ability gives advantage on all wisdom checks, and no creature within 30ft of you can half advantage against you for any reason. The temp hp and benefit lasts for a minute or until you’re incapacitated.
Also the champion barbarian build requires full investment into bonus damage dice, and the fact that barbarian die starts at level 9 means it may take too long to be effective.
But as you probably know half or is necessary for the extra crit dice. This has been further augmented by the addition of the piercer feat. You should be using a pike to take advantage of the greatweapon master feat and piercer feat. You can still take the polearm master feat for the opportunity attack, but it’s important to not that the bonus action does not include pikes, and also that reckless attacks advantage ends after your turn is over.
Piercer is kind of like if the savage attacker feat was useful.
Battle rager may be worth looking into since it provides a consistent bonus action that during play that would also benefit from the piercer feats extra crit die. It won’t benefit from the greatweapon feat, but it would perhaps be more consistent damage than the 1d6+1 from a 3 level dip in zealot with the other features boosting it.
Hey! Love the content! Do you think the numbers would be around the same if it were a Brute UA Fighter with a 2 level Barbarian dip?
Thanks! I'll have to take a look - haven't spent much time on the Brute UA yet.
@@DnDDeepDive I look forward to another great build video! Or at least how well this build would do.
Elven Accuracy doesn't work with strength based attacks, so don't go elf, if you can start at higher levels.
Otherwise brutal build.
The fight against the black dragon at 14th level would still probably go to the dragon, if your dungeon master runs it smart (as they should), because this character is not very good at range. So the dragon can just stay in the sky and dodge until its breath weapon recharges. (If the dragon starts in melee for some reason and you took Sentinel that is a different story.)
Right - someone else had pointed that out and I totally forgot about the elven accuracy thing. Ha ha - I think the dragon would win regardless, between legendarios and lair actions... it was more a thought experiment than anything :).
How does the one shifter race ability work that prevents enemies from having advantage in regards to reckless attack. Does it nullify the down side
What shifter ability? From which book? Specifics please.
@@shirak8 eberon rising from the last war.
@@jonathanmorphew6786 Ahhh... the Wildhunt Subrace: "Shifting Feature
While shifted, you have advantage on Wisdom checks, and no creature within 30 feet of you can make an attack roll with advantage against you, unless you’re incapacitated." That's fascinating! If it were a player at my table, I suppose I'd let that negate the downside to Reckless Attacks. That's very strong! It *does* take a bonus action and can only be used once per short rest, but still, it would *vastly* improve the character's survivability (especially since it comes with some nice temporary HP). Nice find!
Redo this factoring in Samurai Fighter!
How does straight fighter with the samurai subclass stack up? I feel later it'd just be unloading so many attacks at advantage and action surge it'd out pace most other builds.
The problems with the Samurai, imo, are two-fold. 1: Fighting Spirit gives you advantage, but at the cost of a bonus action, and since PAM gives us an attack on our bonus action, it's a net loss outside of very high enemy AC. 2: You can only use Fighting Spirit 3 times per day (until level 10 when you get "one more time" every fight). So yes, even though at level 15 you gain back the attack you lost by sacrificing the bonus action, it's just breaking even on # of attacks (albeit with advantage). If you didn't have limited uses, it'd be a clear upgrade, but as is, I'd rather invest 2 levels into Barbarian to just get permanent advantage on *all* of my attacks without limited use (granted, at the cost of giving your enemy advantage against you, which is obviously dangerous), plus some nice bonus rage damage per attack to boot, and resistance to all non-magical weapon attacks (somewhat making up for the whole "they have advantage against you" deal).
@@DnDDeepDive Well the fighter would still scale to have more attacks and while limited use you would get advantage on more attacks as you got into higher levels, and as you said eventually you have advantage on your opening salvo of attacks which tbh is when most fights are decided anyways.
Hiii I have a question... Can you take a -5 to hit and +10 damage for bonus attack of polearm master feat with great weapon master feat?
Yep - The Polearm master feat lets you make a bonus action attack with the same weapon you use for your action, you're just using the blunt end of it. Great Weapon Master simply says that the weapon must be Heavy to benefit, not that we have to hit with the pointy end :).
@@DnDDeepDive You're awesome, thank you!!!
What would you think about adding something like warlock invocations to the eldritch knight what do you think
Tiny thing you will know anyway ^^
EAcc: "Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll using Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, you can reroll one of the dice once." No Strength there.
So yea Hexblades are the only ones abusing this with PAM + GWM :)
I like totem warrior for the B3F17 variant. but i overall prefer just 2 barb levels - due to getting the third attack earlier :)
Also battlesmith artificers. They can attack with int with magic weapons.
@@crownlexicon5225 true :) I should not have said only but "best at". There is also Shillelagh but at least that one doesnt pair with GWM or PaM...
@@geniumme2502 a quarterstaff is a polearm, isn't it? So PAM but not GWM
I feel like a great club ought to qualify for GWM but it doesn't
@@crownlexicon5225 Battlesmith Artificers gain proficiency with martial weapons. They can use a Glaive or Halberd.
@@vederianl9723 right, but the person I was replying to was talking about shillelagh, and idt you can use shillelagh with a glaive or halberd
In your analysis, have you also considered the number of rages you get? Ultimately, at level 20, it's unlimited, but until then, you have a limited amount of rages. Certainly, it depends on the campaign and maybe it doesn't make that much of a difference, but it certainly something to keep in mind since the number of attacks fighters get is not a limited resource.
Also, have you considered how a Champion Fighter with GWM and Crusher would compare? It's a bit unreliable, but the increased crit chance combined with the chance to make another 7 attacks with advantage (if the crit occurs on the first hit and Action Surge is used) can surely make an impact. Given the crit chance of 15%, we can expect a crit every fourth round for the Fighter and then every member of the party has advantage until the start of the next turn which - depending on party composition - can really make a difference as well. Or would that more fall under burst damage?
Now that the Rune Knight is official but has changed would you still go RK?
Probably! I'm actually working on updating this build (and all the others I've done thus far) post-Tasha's... the first half got done a couple of weeks ago (episode 18) and I hope to have the second half next week! (episode 21)
I’m a lv 1 barb/ 5 fighter. I told myself I would go more barb 2 levels ago. This is the hardest part of this build
Have you thought about a Bladesinger that starts out as a Fighter for the Two-Weapon Fighting Style and Con save Proficiency, as well as a potential second level in Fighter for Action Surge? :3 It's my favorite way to play the Class, and with the Errata to Bladesinger you can sadly no longer use Booming Blade with Shadow Blade, but you can use a Cantrip attack with a Weapon then attack with Extra Attack and meet the Condition for Two-Weapon Fighting, to attack again with a Bonus Action. Potentially with a Shadow Blade, you have in the off-hand.
It is very hard to resist a one level dip into fighter. I typically don’t because I just hate delaying the higher level spells and extra attack, +int to weapon damage etc that are so big. If I started at level 7+ though, I’d probably do it anyway :).
@@DnDDeepDive I've always imagined a 2 level dip that starts at 1 and doesn't take the 2nd level of Fighter till 20.
Race: Variant Human (Feat: Polearm Master)
Skills: 15 str, 15 constitution, 14 dex (Assuming point buy).
Equipment: Gold and buying scale mail + pike
Fighting style: Great Weapon Fighting
Level 1: Fighter 1
Level 2: Fighter 2
Level 3: Fighter 3, Rune Knight, otherwise Champion(If lots of barb levels) or Battlemaster
Level 4: Fighter 4, GWM feat
Level 5: Fighter 5
Level 6: Barbarian 1
Level 7: Barbarian 2
Level 8: Barbarian 3 (Primal Path: Zealot)
Level 9: Fighter 6, bump to strength
Level 10: Fighter 7
Level 11: Fighter 8, bump to strength for 20 str
Level 12: Fighter 9
Level 13: Fighter 10
Level 14: Fighter 11
Level 15: Fighter 12, Tough feat
Level 16: Fighter 13
Level 17: Fighter 14, bump constitution
Level 18: Fighter 15
Level 19: Fighter 16
Level 20: Fighter 17
-If you can start at a higher level, can start as an elf instead to get elven accuracy.-
Thanks for this! (Although, as many have pointed out, I made a mistake re: Elven Accuracy - you can't benefit from it if it's a Strength-based Attack :) )
10:55 It's that or Barber.
That would be the barbarian with a fighter dip then
What do you think of s bugbear for this build? The 2d6 per attack in the first round plus +5feet reach sems nice😁
Wasn’t updated with MoM when I recorded this, but the extra damage round 1 would be especially great :)
The build is strong but what about mental saves? The adult dragon would cause fear which would greatly decrease the damage. Tashes hidious laughter would take this guy out. And it is a first level spell. If I was a dm I would let him have some fun but would hit him hard with mental saves to keep him inline.
Here is how I would do this build. For the fighter subclass u take echo knight and then for the primal path u wanna take bear totem for the resistance to everything. This combo is will be slightly less dmg from not taking zelot but that resistance will give you basically double HP which is amazing. Then you go fighter for everything else. Why not take barb up to 4 for that ASI that’s right there?
"You need two feets" - D&D optimized
lol
Gee whiz, the spear 1d6 or 1d8 damage works with the polearm feat for lower levels
True! But if you're starting Barb or Fighter you should be able to get a Halberd/Pike/Glaive at character creation...
What if you were to do a duel welding fighter with the feit? I feel like it would be better
👍👍
Boost for the algorithm
If you take the barbarian with fighter dip, how many do you take in fighter and when?
Thanks for the incredibly interesting videos!
Glad you're enjoying! If I were going primarily Barbarian, I'd probably start Barb 5 to get Extra Attack, then take 4 levels of Fighter for Fighting Style, Action Surge, the Sub Class, and the ASI, then back to Barb the rest of the way.
@@DnDDeepDive wow that’s a quick answer!
Thanks you so much!
Hmm. That has me thinking about reckless attacks from barbarian and sneak attack from rogue. Instant sneak attack whenever sounds good. Not sure if there are any finese polearms though. Haven't kept up with the last few supplements.
It's not a polearm but the eleven double bladed sword from eberron can be fitness with a feat..
@@shirak8 Oh really? Did they finally come out with an Eberon book for 5e?
@@GOAToatoat But keep in mind the Double-Bladed sword isn't qualified as "heavy" so not technically applicable for the GWM feat (a kind GM might be persuaded to look the other way). I've always found it fairly easy to get sneak attack damage off as a rogue myself, since you always get it if the target is within 5 feet of one of your allies, but if that's a concern, you could always go swashbuckler and get it anyway...
Reckelss attack: Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn
Sneak attack: The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
No finesse polearms. It would be very difficult to do.
You can play an elf or half elf or any other race with gm permission.. to use a double bladed scimitar. It does the same thing as polearm master.. but doesn't need a feat.
And you can get Elven acciracy
Ah, but there is a possible kink! GWM specifies that it refers to "heavy" weapons, and the Double-Bladed scimitar is specifically "two-handed" but not heavy... you might be able to convince your DM to let the feat apply anyway, but it has a *very* minor drawback of doing 5 damage on average instead of 5.5 :P. Ha ha. It makes up for it in coolness factor though! And also, you probably *would* want to take an extra feat to get the most out of it... Revenant Blade for the +1 to Str and the +1 to AC... hmmmm.... I like it!
@@DnDDeepDive right. Good catch!
@@DnDDeepDiveHowever with a damage dice of 2d4 you roll ones and twos alot more often than on a d10 allowing the Great weapon fighting style to come into effect more often
What would be ur suggestion for a fightarian build the crit sifher berserker/champion OR runeknight/zealot for playing a campaign 10-20lvl??
Personally, I’d take the rune knight zealot. Played it in a campaign and loved it.
Why not dip just two levels in barbarian so you can still get your Fighter Archetype ability at 18?
Also toying with the idea of an Echo Knight 17 / Ancestral Guardian 3 with the flavor that the ancestors are his echos. Opinions?
flavor sounds good though mechanically the build is going in different directions.
I think there's no need to consider the level 18 ability as most games don't get to that point. Plus most fighter cap stones are meh. IMO optimizing for a level 10-12 spread is better as that's where most campaigns tend to finish. if it goes past that, people can just pick up levels of whichever adds more benefits to the build.
Nice channel! Totally agree with the Rune Knight love, playing one in a campaign now, lots of fun. I’d probably lean to the Bear totem and just hope for luck on the damage, or skip the third lvl of Barbarian to get to the third attack faster. :)
How do the numbers change if you flip the fighter to the Echo Knight and can pop the Unleash Incarnation twice in the round with action surge? That’s 9 attacks in the round when you hit Fighter 11, you’d be missing the Rune Knight bonus. Plus, you get the bonus option if you take Sentinel, you leave your echo next to the target, you stay away at a distance, and keep them tethered away from you, minimizing the Reckless Attack disadvantage a bit.
Do you think this would this be a good build to use a tortle? I've been trying to think of the best use for the Tortles flat 17 AC. Seems slike you want something that doesn't use heavy armor and doesn't need dex for attacks. That way you can dump dex. I also wondered if it would make a good strength bladesinger but there is no real need for a strength based bladesinger.
I love the idea of a Tortle, because, well, Turtles are awesome :). And ultimately, if that's what you want to play, you absolutely should! I don't really know what to do with their AC though. I'm playing this exact build in a homebrew campaign right now and with a 14 Dex and some non-magical half-plate that I bought fairly early on, I'm sitting at a 17 AC. For pure numbers, I think the Tortle gives you a nice little edge early on, when getting that high of an AC with either unarmored or medium armor would be difficult, but it seems to become useless fairly early on. But again, it can be a nice option for early game, especially if you really need a little more survivability, and more importantly, if you just really want to play a Tortle :).
@@DnDDeepDive I think I'm just looking for a cool cencept/build for a tortle because there is something in there. They make good druids as druids can't wear metal armor but not sure what to do with the strength. Maybe a spore druid 7, fighter 11 with polearm master and GWM? Cast guardian of nature for advantage and 3d10+8d6+1d4+60. You would also get 28 temp hp twice per short rest from the spore druid feature. Annoying thing is it takes so long to come online.
you don't need the barbarian deep, rune knight is just the best barbarian out there, just pick up the hill rune ar lv 7, you gain the resistances when in "rage" + poison resistance, and that is just one of the 3 runes you have at lv 7, and whit the size augment you use the oversize weapons, transforming that 1d10 of your Halberd to +1d10 on each size augment, that means at lv 18 you are doing 3d10 per attack + 1d10 on one attack per round, if one ally cast enlarge on you we're adding another 1d10 per attack + 1d4 from the enlarge, and i didn't even add the other 4 runes you have at lv 15, you realy don't need the barbarian deep, you are now dealing 4d10+1d4+strength per attack + great weapon master if you think you can hit + 1d10 bonus on one attack, that's 4 attacks at lv 20 asuming you didn't multiclass + bonus every turn + 2 action surge, so is not worth the deep, just max your constitution and you will be fine whit 15 reach and gargantual size to cover your allys from enemies attacks, had fun destroying every thing
I'm about to start a new Strahd Campaign (lvl 1 - 10) and i want to play this build or your PAM hexblade, which of those two do you think Tashas benefits more?
Hm... I haven't taken a close look at the "Fightarian" yet but, off the top of my head... it seems like that one mostly just gets nerfs thanks to the changes to Rune Knight, whereas the Hexblade got a bump due to being able to get both an 18 Cha and Elven Accuracy all by level 8. (or 9 if you start with 1 level in fighter). Be sure to check out Ep 18 if you haven't to see how I update the Hexblade build if you go that route. If you decide to go Fighter/Barb and are playing Strahd... consider maybe going Barb with a Fighter dip. Strahd usually ends around level 11, and the Fighter with Barb dip doesn't really take that "head and shoulders better than everything" route until level 14 (when it hits Fighter 11). Before that, the Barb has the edge. Of course, playing what fits your character and is most fun is what is actually important :). Enjoy!
@@DnDDeepDive I really appreciate those thoughts - you have helped me settle on Hexblade. I've watched EP 18, 16 and 1 quite a few times now :)
@@greigdouglas2971 awesome - good luck!
I like Wikidot
You don't have the Fightarian's yellow cells, or the Fightarian at all, on your Sustained DPR Comparisons. Please indicate those levels in your Damage Reports. Thank you!
I prefer the straight Fighter build because at seventh level, the Storm Rune gives everyone within 60 either advantage or disadvantage on all Attacks/Saves/Ability Checks for 1 minute per short rest. At tenth level, the Hill Rune gives resistance to Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing damage for 1 minute per short rest.
What happens after a party wipe? Does everyone just roll new characters?
Just curiously. Typically the powerhouse subclass for fighter is battle master. How it it stack up compared to the rune knight if you ended up going battle master zealot? Or does it lag behind a lot ?
I think the BM has a very slight edge while they have maneuvers available to them. Once they run out though, the RK fares better. So it really depends on how long your combat encounters last and how many of them you get between rests :).
@@DnDDeepDive Agreed on this. I'd put battlemaster ahead due to higher nova burst (now that rune has been nerfed) along with the mutitude of control/debuff effects you can add as riders per attack.
I'd posit if you get about just 3-4 combats per long rest (assuming 1 short rest and someone's packing catnap), battlemaster should remain ahead as you can technically have all your short rest abilities on every fight (maneuvers, action surge, etc). Once you get to 4-5+ combats per long rest and the DM doesn't increase the # of short rests allowed (which IMO is unfair of the DM and gears the game towards long rest classes and hampers short rest classes like the warlock) then the rune knight starts to catch up or pull ahead (depending on difficulty of encounters). Though imo 5+ combats per long rest is a bit too excessive already and i'd rather have non-combat encounters already (social/traps/exploration) to break the monotony. Moreover, it doesn't seem realistic for a party fighting 5+ times in one day and only resting once.
If this is the Fightarian is the other combination called the Barber then?
“Could solo a dragon”. Except for the fact that a dragon can fly and this character only uses melee meaning they’ll never reach the dragon. There’s always a way in D&D to level the playing field
i dunno man. i solo dragons on the regular as a melee character. it's only really an issue in tier 1. in tier 2, it's really just for cinematic effect/dynamic combat as the pcs get access to flight, control spells to bring a flying enemy down or melee folks weaving artificer contacts/i know a guy into their backstory. at that point, flight is more of an issue for the dm and not the players. the only issue with flying opponents i've really encountered are flying enemies who are trying to run away and have superior speed to ours but at that point it's not really a combat anymore but a chase encounter.
My barbarian soloed a black dragon once
@@Almighty_Mage yeah its doable. i've done it multiple times with melee characters. melee characters who have this issue usually have these problems:
1. they aren't optimized enough/have enough tools in their kit (most likely someone who straight classed without magic items or party help)
2. they are too low level for the fight anyway and aren't dealing enough dmg
3. are not thinking creatively (like shooting an unbreakable arrow with rope tied on it and to the melee character and using that to climb onto the dragon so you can melee it while it's in flight-and possibly avoid it's attacks as well)
Yeah, the flight seems like something that shouldn't be ignored. The Sentinel feat would stop the dragon from attacking and then flying up 40 feet, but if you don't have that you have to deal with it another way. Boots of Levitation aren't good enough: you can fly 20 feet, the dragon flies 80. Tripping attack doesn't work on huge creatures. Sure there are ways to get flying for your "Fightarian" but it shouldn't just be assumed. You don't have anything built into this character to deal with it, it would have to be additional magical equipment allowed by the DM. Either that or you stand there throwing javelins at disadvantage for long range without your GWM or PAM feats working and think about a tactical retreat.
So at this point Does fightarian build work with Echoknight? An extra attack every turn would be nice?
Would be strong and worth considering, no question. Of course, you can only take advantage of that extra attack Constitution modifier times per day, so better for burst damage, but not necessarily for sustained, yeah?
so how much DPR does it do while down?
Could you take the defence fighting style and Totem barbarian to make this a bit beefier without sacrificing too much in the DPR department? Or how would you build this with a long term campaign in mind without feeling like you are made of glass but still dish out very respectable damage?
For sure - going Totem vs. Zealot would only cost you 1d6+1 per turn in dpr, and Defense vs. GWF wouldn't be a huge swing either, though admittedly, if you're giving your enemies advantage on every attack, and due to you only wearing medium armor, your AC isn't going to ever get high enough to benefit much from another +1. But having resistance to everything would help!
@@DnDDeepDive Great thanks for that. I just felt like maybe 1 AC might be a little better than 1 point of dmg per swing but if I'm resistant to all dmg then does that AC even carry that much weight?
I don't know how you would even quantify it but if you can you should absolutely make an AC importance Video for the Mini series you started. Loving the vids.
@@theauconeproject2030 I'd honestly just take blindfighting or the maneuver fighting style. If you're a variant human blind fighting goes a long way to mitigate your lack of darkvision at least as far as combats concerned while giving the added bonus vs invisible creatures, while the maneuver could be anything. From something as simple as precision since while you have advantage two low rolls can happen, or trip to set up allies, etc
Dumb question I know with zealot while raging you can't drop. Why not go barb 15 for that persistent rage feature so you literally can't die? With the fighter dip? I suppose the tankier version?
I'm not overly experienced, so maybe that has something to do with it, but why do you not hold sentinel in as high regards as those 2. Especially when combined with those 2. Making people never move on your reaction. Giving you more ways to use your reaction. Stuff like that.
I think sentinel is a great feat, especially if your primary goal is to defend/control - I actually use it on the Bear Totem Barbarian tank build I did for episode 3 - for this one, I was focused exclusively on damage, and Polearm Master *should* generally give you an attack on your reaction almost every time if you just keep your enemies at 15 feet so when they move up, you get to swing. That said, if you're feeling Sentinel, I'd say go for it.
In the campaign I was just in I basically never got to really attack much in melee. The fighter polearm master felt underwhelming due to this. Make sure to be in a campaign which supports melee damage builds. Also don't play this build if you're unable to make natural 20s. I personally have terrible luck with natural 20s and I didn't crit more than once or twice from level 1 to level 6 with pure fighter.
Why didn't you go with the berzerker barbarian and frenzied att as your bonus action giving you 2d6 plus strength instead of 1d4? Plus it saves you a feat.
I know this isnt addressed at me but id believe it's due to the fact frenzy gived exhaustion. As berserk it's not actually a sustained build due to the huge downside of frenzy gives exhaustion. New players see that extra attack and assume it's a stronger subclass when it's actually the weakest of barbarian in my opinion.
I think it's a viable option. I had a couple of reasons - one was the big potential downside of exhaustion, as Jonathan mentions (though I think, in practice, you probably don't suffer from that *too* much, as most encounters are fewer than 1 minute and it's not too common to otherwise lose rage, so long as you've got some ranged weapons on you), but also - the extra d6+half barb level from zealot adds some nice damage. It *might* not be quite as good as using a Great Sword for all 3 attacks *and* getting your Strength capped sooner, but the "free rez" feature from Zealot is also super nice, as it makes spamming reckless attacks a lot less scary (assuming you've got someone with a rez spell in your party :) ). And I suppose we shouldn't discount the other benefits of PAM - free attack when someone *enters* your reach, and being able to attack from 10 feet has some nice benefits.
The other reason was that I really wanted to do a straight up "who wears GWM+PAM better?" comparison between the two classes.
Still, I'd actually like to crunch the numbers to see which comes out ahead for pure DPR. I'd guess it's the Zerker, if only by a hair - especially at early levels before PAM gets their Strength capped. Also, I'm getting sick of PAM builds so it'd be fun to actually take a Great Sword into battle for a change :).
Alright, I crunched the numbers :). Surprisingly, it's a bigger difference to go Zerker than I'd thought - at level 9 it's 9-10 extra DPR on average, depending on enemy AC (85 DPR vs. 10 AC, 64 DPR vs. 16 AC). The difference is fairly negligible by level 11, once the PAM build hits Fighter 8/Barb 3 and catches up on Strength, but up until then it's a solid ~10%-15% increase to DPR. So long as you're willing to forego the other benefits you get from PAM and Zealot, I'd say go for it!
How does str paladin stack up with this?
I want to see this, but with Echo Knight to abuse Unleash Incarnation (edit: unleash incarnation + reckless attack.)
Bladesinger vs fightarian simulation video?
A zealot barbarian can do 57.58 DPR while raging at 20th level against an enemy with 20 AC. This exceeds the elite DPR baseline quite significantly being 42.7 if I am correct.