TBH. I can appreciate and enjoy growing/changing of origins and previously perceived "truths". Even in life, "known" truths can change when new information arises. In these stories it keeps them from being seasons of stagnant storyline, predictable and boring.
I respect your opinion, but I don't agree. I see it as poor writing, not being able to bring up new story, new truth, new iconic characters, and hence deciding to revamp/recontextualize the past. I see it as lack of creativity. I appreciated the drust, the Mogu, the new races in the past, or the development of old ones, not this type of solution.
Couldn't have said it better myself. To me, what makes a world feel dynamic is when the cultures that exist within that world are able to develop different perceptions about the exact same thing. No two stories are the same, no two experiences are identical and every corner of a cube can present a different angle. Its why I love that the cosmic chart for the Shadowlands is different to ours. It shows to us, as players, what information the Brokers could find and where their limitations in discovery lies. Sometimes, the story isn't what's shown but rather what isn't shown.
I would prefer if the Maruuk Centaur come from the union between a not so evil Son of Therazane and a powerful Dryad, daughter of Cenarius. Aside from Lunara in Heroes of the Storm, it wouldn't hurt to have another named Dryad in WoW. If Zaetar and Theradras can create Centaur, others of their kind should be able to as well. The Magnataur though, i don't think the same parentage is likely, but also not impossible. They are VERY different though compared to the Desolace as well as the Ohnaran Centaur. Not just obviously in body, but also in their behaviour and culture. I'd personally prefer a somewhat different parentage. Hell, maybe even give Cenarius an angry, more barbarous and primal halfbrother. Lots of options here to fill the vast spaces of time with interesting Lore.
The Magnataur (which you’re correct I had forgotten) connection with the centaur, and how the new Ohn’ara models have that tinge of thick hairy fur, sold the concept for me. There’s also the other various Nature forces like other Keepers of the Grove like Zaetar, and the Sisters of the Grove/Dryads- doe centaur women with Druidic powers. So the original population came about from flings between these keepers and Earth elementals. Some went to the Dragon Isles and the rest were wiped out, with only the population in Northrend remaining and evolving into the Magnataur. The Kalimdor batch we’re used to are evil and cursed because Theradras was essentially lying with her huge influx of life energy, and sinful pairing yadda yadda.
I don't think people know what retcon means, the story in dragon flight is just adding to the story we knew. Its not saying the story we knew before is wrong or never happened
I agree, but emotions run high when it's something you love and can understand when they have a negative reaction at first. As long as after some cooling off we can have a reasoned discussion.
They interest me a lot, the interplay between their base aggressive nature and then trying to fight against it and find peace. Some through the hunt, some through belief etc
@@thecosycampfire “There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.” Seems fitting and I agree.
The naming of Desolace, Mashan'she "Loom of the Earthmother" is troubling to me. As far as I was thinking, the Earthmother and An'she are two separate beings. I wish Blizz would have thought more about the naming scheme in play here.
So, i wasnt aware that the Dragon Isles were Isles pre-sundering, so i'd been wracking my brain over certain perceived inconsistencies; glad to finally know. As for the Centaur of Zaeta/Theradras; could it be possible/acceptable to soft-retcon the lore to have the Centaur already existing in Mashan'she but the awakening of Theradras and subsequent desolation of the land, causes the Centaur to become aggressive in an effort to better acclimatize to the new landscape (fighting for resources etc) - they maybe come to worship Theradras due to her power (and display of it) and when Zaeta comes along, they consider him unworthy of loving their 'god' (or just find it offensive; or maybe even as a way to harm Theradras, were they to blame her for their current situation rather than worshipping her) and thus kill him - rest of the lore kinda stays the same i suppose?
The analogy at the end of the video is the epitome of writing, the one thing 99% of people don't understand. New information, new context, is not a retcon. There are never retcons in WoW, aside from Medan's story being in the True Timeline, but he can still exist and be canon in an Alternate Azeroth, which he likely does, for when they want to pull him into the story, like say if Khadgar we're to die. There are ALWAYS recontextualizations though: new information is added which changes the overall story or perspective of a subject. MoP was full of them, SL was full of them, DF is full of them. This is how you keep a series like Warcraft going as long as it has, it is vitally necessary, and it's most of, if not all the same writing team since day 1. Metzen is back, Afrasiabi is likely doing what Metzen likely did, which is still communicate with the writing team to guide them, though Afrasiabi, unlike Metzen, will never return due to the lawsuit stuff. Metzen, Afrasiabi, and Danuser ARE the best writers in Warcraft. A lot of lore and stories people love are due to the collaboration between Afrasiabi and Metzen. Without him, we'll still get cool stuff, but not nearly as cool. Like it or not, or "boys club" at Blizzard made what you love about Warcraft, period. It's like having a friend in a gang. You don't like that he's in a gang, but you're sure glad he is if someone were to threaten you. You have to accept the good with the bad. SL and DF, the writing styles, the recontextualizations, those are par for the course. Expect MORE of this, not less.
In fact the main issue is not the debate retcon or not retcon, but the shift in the tone and quality of the lore. The recontextualizations or reframings are ok as long as they are good quality content, I'm afraid this is just ok.
@@francescoporcari8597 Its not about quality, because the recontextualizations have mostly all been high quakity. The Nathrezim recontext for example was phenomenal. Prior to their recontext, the full extent was that they were simply really smart demons, who's homeworld was seemingly destroyed by Illidan, and since the Legion is all but gone, without the recontext, the Nathrezim would be basically done with forever for the most part. With the recontext, now they have infinitely more plot time, since they are universal infiltrators for Death. Zovaal and the SL plot added WAY more context to the Lich King plot, which originally was just the Legion, Ner'zhul, Arthas, and Bolvar.
@@monkeysk8er33 I don't agree regarding nathrezim or Zovaal, I think that they could have kept the core theme (a bad guy from the afterlife and the Nathrezim as his infiltrators) but handled the material way better. I found it overcomplicated and forced. it was really poorly implemented as much of that happened offscreen or even "offpage". we were told, we weren't shown. The Nathrezim could have been kept relevant without touching the past, simply by investigating their motivation and by giving them more development.
@@francescoporcari8597 You may disagree and dislike the changes, but that doesn't make their added context less interesting or complex. As a writer of a multi decade spanning universe of lore, their job is to add to the lore. When you run out of old lore, you make new lore, and recontextualize old lore to fit new lore. That's how writing works. I get the fact that 99% of the playerbase aren't writers, and not even half of that 1% who are writers are likely even decent writers, but people have to stop pretending that it is "bad writing." Great writing sometimes flies over peoples' heads. Such is the curse of intelligence and competence, they're not universally shared with the general populace. What's happened is that over time, as the lore has been added to, and made more complex, it's gotten nearly impossible for 99% of playerbase to like the lore, let alone comprehend it, and that's due it's complexity, not it's quality. I get it, being smart is hard, and takes a lot of work. But got is it equally infuriating and hilarious that people don't understand some of this shit. You liking something doesn't make it great. Something being well written makes it great. Note that these stories aren't finished, not anywhere close. So just like with things like the Song of Ice and Fire book series, you cannot say its bad until it's done. But you can say something is good before it's finished. That may be hard for people to understand, but it's simple logic. 🤷 A plot can be great, and be ruined by a bad plot twist, and vice-versa. You can call a movie great until it ends terribly. You can call a movie terrible, until you see a mind blowing plot twist ending. I can think of a million examples of these, but you can't throw something out, and say it's trash if you haven't fully consumed it. Again, most of the playerbase barely knows the MAIN storylines of each expansion, let alone the overall metric ton of lore that comes from external material that contextualizes a lot of it. People who played Cata might have thought that Thrall met Nozdormu in the Dragon Soul raid, not knowing he met him in Thrall Twilight of the Aspects and essentially saved Nozdormu from being trapped in the infinite timeways. That's a huge detail to be unaware of when analyzing their relationship, which seems virtually non existent, aside from a few scenes if you only play the game. It's like Star Wars. You don't know Vader if you don't play The Force Unleashed, watch Clone Wars, or read his comics. You know movie Vader, which is barebones and has less complexity and context.
Absolutely hate it. If they *Had* to use a retcon to have Centaur pre war-of-the-ancients they should have just moved the Xaetar and Theradras back in time. After all, it was just a book mention with a date, it's better for the date to be wrong than for the WC3 centaur to just be a cheap knockoff of some "Totally were there the whole time" greater original. I feel the same way about the First Ones basically being the "Titans, but better" Completely redundant and made to overshadow better lore just for the sake of having something bigger.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
TBH. I can appreciate and enjoy growing/changing of origins and previously perceived "truths". Even in life, "known" truths can change when new information arises. In these stories it keeps them from being seasons of stagnant storyline, predictable and boring.
Honestly fills me with hope to see other people feeling the same way.
Very true. Most of the hiring we are taught in school is bs
I respect your opinion, but I don't agree.
I see it as poor writing, not being able to bring up new story, new truth, new iconic characters, and hence deciding to revamp/recontextualize the past.
I see it as lack of creativity.
I appreciated the drust, the Mogu, the new races in the past, or the development of old ones, not this type of solution.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
To me, what makes a world feel dynamic is when the cultures that exist within that world are able to develop different perceptions about the exact same thing. No two stories are the same, no two experiences are identical and every corner of a cube can present a different angle. Its why I love that the cosmic chart for the Shadowlands is different to ours. It shows to us, as players, what information the Brokers could find and where their limitations in discovery lies. Sometimes, the story isn't what's shown but rather what isn't shown.
Honestly I think they forgot they had centaurs in the game because they haven’t done anything with them in nearly two decades
Could be true
I would prefer if the Maruuk Centaur come from the union between a not so evil Son of Therazane and a powerful Dryad, daughter of Cenarius. Aside from Lunara in Heroes of the Storm, it wouldn't hurt to have another named Dryad in WoW. If Zaetar and Theradras can create Centaur, others of their kind should be able to as well.
The Magnataur though, i don't think the same parentage is likely, but also not impossible. They are VERY different though compared to the Desolace as well as the Ohnaran Centaur.
Not just obviously in body, but also in their behaviour and culture. I'd personally prefer a somewhat different parentage. Hell, maybe even give Cenarius an angry, more barbarous and primal halfbrother. Lots of options here to fill the vast spaces of time with interesting Lore.
I can see that, something more ferocious/angry/primal nature based could totally fit too.
The Magnataur (which you’re correct I had forgotten) connection with the centaur, and how the new Ohn’ara models have that tinge of thick hairy fur, sold the concept for me.
There’s also the other various Nature forces like other Keepers of the Grove like Zaetar, and the Sisters of the Grove/Dryads- doe centaur women with Druidic powers.
So the original population came about from flings between these keepers and Earth elementals. Some went to the Dragon Isles and the rest were wiped out, with only the population in Northrend remaining and evolving into the Magnataur. The Kalimdor batch we’re used to are evil and cursed because Theradras was essentially lying with her huge influx of life energy, and sinful pairing yadda yadda.
Exactly, I had a similar eureka moment myself after looking at the models. Such a great comment though, thanks!
Ooh, I found another great wow channel! Great storytelling ability! It is a matter of time before you are discovered and grow rapidly!
Wow, thank you! That means a lot.
I don't think people know what retcon means, the story in dragon flight is just adding to the story we knew. Its not saying the story we knew before is wrong or never happened
I agree, but emotions run high when it's something you love and can understand when they have a negative reaction at first. As long as after some cooling off we can have a reasoned discussion.
@@thecosycampfire true I only really get annoyed when they genocide they favourite race in any game/book and destory my favourite zone haha
Haha I feel that one!
These less barbarous centaurs are odd, but not unbelievable. There are always exceptions to the typical.
They interest me a lot, the interplay between their base aggressive nature and then trying to fight against it and find peace. Some through the hunt, some through belief etc
@@thecosycampfire “There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.”
Seems fitting and I agree.
Excellent editing and storytelling spot on 💯
Glad you enjoyed it!
The naming of Desolace, Mashan'she "Loom of the Earthmother" is troubling to me. As far as I was thinking, the Earthmother and An'she are two separate beings. I wish Blizz would have thought more about the naming scheme in play here.
So, i wasnt aware that the Dragon Isles were Isles pre-sundering, so i'd been wracking my brain over certain perceived inconsistencies; glad to finally know.
As for the Centaur of Zaeta/Theradras; could it be possible/acceptable to soft-retcon the lore to have the Centaur already existing in Mashan'she but the awakening of Theradras and subsequent desolation of the land, causes the Centaur to become aggressive in an effort to better acclimatize to the new landscape (fighting for resources etc) - they maybe come to worship Theradras due to her power (and display of it) and when Zaeta comes along, they consider him unworthy of loving their 'god' (or just find it offensive; or maybe even as a way to harm Theradras, were they to blame her for their current situation rather than worshipping her) and thus kill him - rest of the lore kinda stays the same i suppose?
The analogy at the end of the video is the epitome of writing, the one thing 99% of people don't understand. New information, new context, is not a retcon. There are never retcons in WoW, aside from Medan's story being in the True Timeline, but he can still exist and be canon in an Alternate Azeroth, which he likely does, for when they want to pull him into the story, like say if Khadgar we're to die. There are ALWAYS recontextualizations though: new information is added which changes the overall story or perspective of a subject. MoP was full of them, SL was full of them, DF is full of them. This is how you keep a series like Warcraft going as long as it has, it is vitally necessary, and it's most of, if not all the same writing team since day 1. Metzen is back, Afrasiabi is likely doing what Metzen likely did, which is still communicate with the writing team to guide them, though Afrasiabi, unlike Metzen, will never return due to the lawsuit stuff. Metzen, Afrasiabi, and Danuser ARE the best writers in Warcraft. A lot of lore and stories people love are due to the collaboration between Afrasiabi and Metzen. Without him, we'll still get cool stuff, but not nearly as cool. Like it or not, or "boys club" at Blizzard made what you love about Warcraft, period. It's like having a friend in a gang. You don't like that he's in a gang, but you're sure glad he is if someone were to threaten you. You have to accept the good with the bad.
SL and DF, the writing styles, the recontextualizations, those are par for the course. Expect MORE of this, not less.
Agree with a lot of this, but humans have a hard time with change. Sometimes people need a little nudge to help them adjust.
In fact the main issue is not the debate retcon or not retcon, but the shift in the tone and quality of the lore. The recontextualizations or reframings are ok as long as they are good quality content, I'm afraid this is just ok.
@@francescoporcari8597 Its not about quality, because the recontextualizations have mostly all been high quakity. The Nathrezim recontext for example was phenomenal. Prior to their recontext, the full extent was that they were simply really smart demons, who's homeworld was seemingly destroyed by Illidan, and since the Legion is all but gone, without the recontext, the Nathrezim would be basically done with forever for the most part. With the recontext, now they have infinitely more plot time, since they are universal infiltrators for Death.
Zovaal and the SL plot added WAY more context to the Lich King plot, which originally was just the Legion, Ner'zhul, Arthas, and Bolvar.
@@monkeysk8er33 I don't agree regarding nathrezim or Zovaal, I think that they could have kept the core theme (a bad guy from the afterlife and the Nathrezim as his infiltrators) but handled the material way better.
I found it overcomplicated and forced.
it was really poorly implemented as much of that happened offscreen or even "offpage".
we were told, we weren't shown.
The Nathrezim could have been kept relevant without touching the past, simply by investigating their motivation and by giving them more development.
@@francescoporcari8597 You may disagree and dislike the changes, but that doesn't make their added context less interesting or complex.
As a writer of a multi decade spanning universe of lore, their job is to add to the lore. When you run out of old lore, you make new lore, and recontextualize old lore to fit new lore. That's how writing works. I get the fact that 99% of the playerbase aren't writers, and not even half of that 1% who are writers are likely even decent writers, but people have to stop pretending that it is "bad writing." Great writing sometimes flies over peoples' heads. Such is the curse of intelligence and competence, they're not universally shared with the general populace.
What's happened is that over time, as the lore has been added to, and made more complex, it's gotten nearly impossible for 99% of playerbase to like the lore, let alone comprehend it, and that's due it's complexity, not it's quality. I get it, being smart is hard, and takes a lot of work. But got is it equally infuriating and hilarious that people don't understand some of this shit.
You liking something doesn't make it great. Something being well written makes it great. Note that these stories aren't finished, not anywhere close. So just like with things like the Song of Ice and Fire book series, you cannot say its bad until it's done. But you can say something is good before it's finished. That may be hard for people to understand, but it's simple logic. 🤷
A plot can be great, and be ruined by a bad plot twist, and vice-versa. You can call a movie great until it ends terribly. You can call a movie terrible, until you see a mind blowing plot twist ending. I can think of a million examples of these, but you can't throw something out, and say it's trash if you haven't fully consumed it.
Again, most of the playerbase barely knows the MAIN storylines of each expansion, let alone the overall metric ton of lore that comes from external material that contextualizes a lot of it.
People who played Cata might have thought that Thrall met Nozdormu in the Dragon Soul raid, not knowing he met him in Thrall Twilight of the Aspects and essentially saved Nozdormu from being trapped in the infinite timeways. That's a huge detail to be unaware of when analyzing their relationship, which seems virtually non existent, aside from a few scenes if you only play the game.
It's like Star Wars. You don't know Vader if you don't play The Force Unleashed, watch Clone Wars, or read his comics. You know movie Vader, which is barebones and has less complexity and context.
There shoud have been a Highmountain Centaurs not Highmountain Taurens
That could of been interesting.
Lore can evolve just as all knowledge does, completely agree with you on there. Great video ❤
Glad you agree, we can all get a little stuck sometimes on one idea, we all have to help each other shake that off.
"Stop trying to overshadow WC3 and classic lore" is a huge pet peeve of mine.
A good one. I'm convinced. 👍✌️😊
Nice, I'm so glad you enjoyed it!
Absolutely hate it. If they *Had* to use a retcon to have Centaur pre war-of-the-ancients they should have just moved the Xaetar and Theradras back in time. After all, it was just a book mention with a date, it's better for the date to be wrong than for the WC3 centaur to just be a cheap knockoff of some "Totally were there the whole time" greater original. I feel the same way about the First Ones basically being the "Titans, but better" Completely redundant and made to overshadow better lore just for the sake of having something bigger.