Delta Air Lines Has A Problem: The Boeing 767
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- Опубликовано: 21 апр 2021
- Delta Air Lines is one of the top carriers by global passenger volume. However, the carrier has a nagging problem: the Boeing 767.
While there is nothing wrong with the planes, they are aging, and slated for retirement in the coming years. But Delta does not yet have a clear replacement for the aircraft. How does the 767 fit into the company’s fleet?
And why is it proving so difficult to find a suitable replacement?
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I just flew on a Delta 767 last Friday to Denver Colorado from atlanta. I really like that plane and it was modernized enough that from an interior perspective, it did not appear to be old.
Must have been a 767-400. They've been doing a lot of ATLDEN segments
I’ll be on the same flight next Thursday.
Yeah, just upgrade the engines and refurbish it
@@Tobu9105F Pressurization cycles continue to weaken the structure however :(
That is why many hundreds of c47s and dc3s fly today. For such an ancient type they are still widely used.
1. Reliable
2. Extremely rugged and capable of unique applications not suitable to more modern types
3. Non pressurized
It has to be the A330-800NEO since it will be cheaper to acquire upfront (owing to low demand), can accommodate existing A330-200, A330-300 and A330-900NEO pilots and maintenance staff, and will seat the appropriate number of passengers at around 240. The added range at around 15,000 kilometres is also a plus!
you guys are so right I like when great minds think alike there is no better Aircraft company than the Airbus company and if I had an Airline I go with an All Airbus fleet to save my self from the trouble that Boeing is in
Yup, Boeing needs at least 5 years in my opinion to sort out their issues. The 737 MAX debacle, the 787 engine issues and the 777X delays. It's a mess right now :/
@@rudrajitbanerjee but in 5 years Airbus will have twice the market share Boeing have lost their way cant even build an aircraft without some fault or the other so Airlines just can't wait for Boeing to fix their problem they need an Aircraft quickly to fly
Yup. It'll all boil down to the upcoming Boeing NMA in the 250ish seat segment. Will probably launch in 2025. Boeing needs to nail it to perfection!
Agreed. The NMA is barely a gleam in Boeing's eyes - that isn't even a "maybe". I would add that Delta wouldn't make a firm decision on retiring the 767-300s without a replacement plan. The idea that they now have to develop one is kind of silly.
The A330-800 really seems like the best deal. As mentioned in the video they would get them with quite a discount, but also the -800s could be delivered (comparable) sooner than later. Also many of Delta‘s Pilots already flying on A320, A350 or already A330 family aircraft can be trained rather easy and get the rating!
If it was that easy ... The A330-800 is not optimized for markets where the 767-300 mainly operates -- flights of 7-9 hours. Its too heavy and has too much range. And if an Airline does not need the range of the -800 they would just order the -900 as it seats around 40 more passengers with an extra empty weight of just 3 (three!) tons. But the A330-900 is too large for many of the 767-300 routes.
Of course they could lower the MTOW of the A330-800 to save some fees but it would still have a too heavy structure and too large fuel tanks.
@@widget787 Correct There is a reason the 800neo has sold so poorly. The economics are just not that good. The 787’s numbers for the same capacity are much better.
@@johniii8147 maybe a lower MTOW, A310-wing A330-800 would be interesting, but not the -800 as it is reality. Even the 787-8 is not a good direct 767-replacement.
@@widget787 True. The 787 is over designed for a 767 direct replacement. To much range and too heavy and larger. That’s why the NMA is being looked at by Boeing. Will it ever happen is very questionable at this point. Airlines will likely have to make their choices from available options. AA went with 787-8. UA still has no solution for 767 replacement either.
@@johniii8147 yeah it will be interesting. Maybe Airbus should build a stretched A310neo and Boeing a 767-300X. At least for Boeing this could be smart, until they have a clean sheet 797 in the air many customers could have switched to Airbus so bridge that gap with a 767X and then they have enough time to build a 797.
I've flown the Delta 763 out of Detroit multiple times in the last 4 months for business to Phoenix. I LOVE IT. 2-3-2 configuration, WB jet on a domestic route. It's quiet, has the engines of a 747, and has Deltas world famous IFE on every seat which you won't find on American or United! It's been a treat flying this bird, it'll be sad to see it go. I've flown both this and the Delta 757 in the last couple years. I prefer them EVERYTIME to a 737 or A320! There's just something about these planes in terms of comfort and performance that I don't feel in the smaller counterparts!
The problem they have isn't the 737 or A320 - it's that the routes they use the 767s on could be serviced much, much more efficiently the with newer generation of aircraft, such as the A330. It's a bit surprising that they've held on to the 767s so long given that they could be making major fuel efficiency savings with the newer planes
I just stumbled upon this channel and I must say that I am impressed: this is single the dryest thing I have ever encountered in my life. It is 100% pure specifics of product models, which have no unique qualities and are only very slightly different versions of essentially the exact same thing, varying only in size and design recency. The constraints are all like "we want to buy this but there aren't any", or "we want to use some of these but we got rid of those ones because they weren't good". And the solution is "the company sells this one which is good because it's basically the same as the old one".
I was expecting to learn some theory of economics or general lessons about how operations and logistics function, and I am really impressed how there is virtually nothing like that to be learned here. This may be the least interesting topic ever created.
767s are fantastic airplanes ... I hope they continue to fly.
Apparently they have recently become pretty popular for cargo flights. So it looks like they will stick around for awhile.
767 NG
@@greggstrasser5791 basically 787
@@ruskiius8392
787 is made out of plastic. Totally different design.
@@greggstrasser5791that’s what I’ve been saying those whole time. The 787 and A350 I know for a fact are made out of Plastic. They call it “Carbon Fiber Composites”. Those “Carbon Fiber Composites” are Polycarbonates. You know what is also also made out of Polycarbonates? Plastic bags, Disposable Water Bottles, the list goes on. It’s Plastic.
The A330-800 seems like the most logical replacement since it's of a similar size and to have fleet commonality with their existing A330s. Common type rating with the A350 is also nice of course
you guys are so right I like when great minds think alike there is no better Aircraft company than the Airbus company and if I had an Airline I go with an All Airbus fleet to save my self from the trouble that Boeing is in
it's not of a similar size. it's bigger that's why delta is having a problem.
@@rv7w602 yes it’s bigger, but out the aircraft currently offered the A330-800 is the closest it can get. If Boeing announced an updated 767, so something like a 767X, today than Delta would probably go for this option. But without that, the A330-800 really seems to be the best deal for them
@@spongebubatz The 330-800 is too risky for 767 replacement. It's a bigger and a much much heavier plane than the 767-300 is. The 787-8 is the smallest Airbus, Boeing passenger wide body in production but don't think they'll order that.
Something smaller like A321xlr is a safer option for them.
@@rv7w602 You've got a point. The A330 is around 40 tons heavier at OEW but considering they're probably not going for a 787-8 maybe a mix of A330-800s and A321s can balance out the routes that are 757/767 routes currently. The improved fuel efficiency and type commonality should overall reduce long term costs as well
I think the cabin at 3:05 is premium economy in a 777 or A350. Delta's 767's are all still 2-3-2 layout in economy.
The windows are unmistakably Boeing. A 777-200LR I believe.
economy class: a lot of a350s are configured with 9 abreast seating, not 8. a330a are often 8 abreast in economy in 2-4-2 layout. 777s are often 10 abreast but some like JAL configure to 9 abreast.
The Premium Select layout on 764 is 2-2-2. It was a wrong photo.
The A350 interior is not that ugly
They were explaining the new Premium Economy product on OTHER aircraft.
If I were DELTA, I would get risky with the A330-800neo.
- It has great commonality with the -200 its replacing soon and -900neo already in the fleet.
- It has similar capacity with the 767-300ER its replacing but has more flexibility when it comes to range, because of its 15,000 km reach. This means it can also go to 767 capacity routes the 767 can't reach.
The only replacement for a 767 is a 767.
LOL plenty in the desert to overhaul.
@@antr7493 😂
The 767-X.
Just like the only replacement for a 757 is another 757.
So true
I flew 767’s for a competitor of Delta for many years. I loved that airplane,
Was a good plane to work on as well!
Didn’t fly the 767; wasn’t a mechanic for them, but only a passenger and I love that jet! It’s a comfortable plane. Last one I had the pleasure to be a passenger was on Continental for a flight to Guam.
@Schlomo Baconberg We're smack in the middle of beefing up our Airbus lineup. 25 A321neos on firm order with another order for an additional 25. Speeding delivery of 2 A350neos and 1 A330-900.
@Schlomo Baconberg What airport is it?
@Schlomo Baconberg We're flying the E70 and E75's from Detroit, CRJ7's and 9's from Minneapolis, and the A321/A321neos out of ATL.
I think a mix of A321LR and A330-800 would be a good flexible approach to the routes that the 767 was ideal for historically.
A321 would be good for a 757 replacement.
Very possible and they used to bring one down for the Brazil route and many times there would run mco-msp. In the old days the first couple of the flights of the day were 767's.
I wish Boeing would develop a next generation of the 767. It is the most comfortable wide body so far with the 2-3-2 abreast seat configuration. 👍
Boeing needs a legit 757 replacement too. Their greed is eating them alive and they have no answers for Airbus.
The 797 is the slated replacement. Won’t be flying for nearly another decade though.
The 767 is definitely NOT the most comfortable wide body
@@marcelbischof2606 yup. The a380 with 19inch seats in economy, super quiet, it’s day it’s better in economy. The a330/340 2-4-2 theoretically is no different if one is talking about the probability of being only one seat away from the aisle.
767 MAX, just add bigger unbalanced engines. No need to test or retrain! Will save so much money!
The only quick and logical deal is the Airbus A330-800. And with the low orders on this aircraft, they could get a huge discount! 😁
I thought only large order gives a bulk discount?
@@annoyingguyoninternet1631 Usually that's true, but there's only been 15 orders for the a338! A sizeable order the same size of the old 763ER fleet (~50) could be enough to get a decent deal since Airbus is probably wanting to get extra sales for the a338.
This is a great replacement. Airbus would love this is if the airlines in the US ordered this.
Nah fam, it’s A380 time
I was shocked by the age of my 767 from Oahu to NYC. It all makes sense now. Great video, will be nice to see what they come with
I’ve flown those Delta 767s to both Buenos Aires and Santiago many many times. And Delta’s problem is not new nor is it exclusively a Delta problem. I remember noticing how old they were as far back as 2011. Last month coming back from SCL I noticed Delta started flying an A330 which I thought was great while I watched it take off from my seat on a United 767 that looked pretty rackety too.
that awkward moment when simple flying doesn't boast about the A321XLR
Yeah lol. Don't know why they like a plane that hasn't even flown so much.
Waiting on the the new Boeing is not an option for 767 replacement. They say the 767 -300 are gone from the fleet by 2025. The new aircraft couldn’t be delivered until 2028-2030 time frame. The will likely have to go with 330/321XLR combo
The XLR probably doesn't quite have the capacity and is a bit too small to replace the 767s. Plus, it's a single aisle narrow-body as compared to a twin aisle wide-body, slowing boarding and disembarkation
@@johniii8147 actually delta is really waiting for the Boeing NMA. As a stop gap, they will likely purchase cheap A330-200 from the 2nd hand market to bridge the gap between the retirement of the B767 and the delivery of the NMA.
@@chingweixion621 Not likely on purchasing used wide bodies. Too expensive to reconfigure to their interiors. US carriers rarely get used wide bodies. Short term leases on the 330NEO probably a better option
I love that simple flying is using pdx clips my home and local airport.
I'm missing one option here: second-hand A330-200s. The economy being what it is now, they'd be cheap for Delta to buy, and there's plenty of them out there. Delta have proven in the past that they are an opportunistic buyer, and are not above taking second-hand planes: most of their MD-90s were second-hand, the entire 717 fleet is second-hand, even some 737-800s, 767-300Ers and 757s were brought in second-hand. They could easily do it again.
I feel like the 787-8 would be a perfect replacement for the 767-300er, clearly shown by airlines like American fully going for them and Tui doing the same as they are very similar size aircraft
The routes Delta's 767s fly also correlates well with what Norwegian is flying, and they use a 787 fleet. Their business plan (in terms of marketing and pricing) may not be that great, but the efficiencies of the 787 on these routes have been proven conceptually.
Absolutely
Delta canceled their 787 order :(
@@andrewmpachetti of course they did!!!! Delta is such a Liberal company at this point in history I may even call them an “Anti American” Company it’s no shocker they canceled their order. They will probably just order the A-350 instead. Give Europe the business.
My view of Delta completely changed during the insurrections of 2020 when I saw multiple Delta pilots and flight attendants wearing “Delta supports Black lives matter” pins.
Now I’m not gonna get into politics and OF COURSE Black Lives Matter but the group using the BLM Moniker are nothing short of Domestic Terrorist. They don’t wanna do anything in the courts they wanna take it to the street and I believe the president has made millions and lives in a mansion from what I’ve heard. They destroyed a city I love and in the course almost assaulted my Very Good Friend a really nice guy NYPD cop who Coincidentally is married to a black women.
How a Company like Detla Sanctions company BLM Pins for employees is beyond my comprehension. At the the bare minimum your
Disenfranchising half your customer base it’s obviously a very hotbed topic especially in 2020 why would this ever be allowed on a flight crew?
I’ve actually now taken a point to try to deadhead on Delta flights just so I can use up that fuel and grab whatever snacks I can grab. I might as well cost them money!!!! Lol lol lol. But most of that is already pre planned for me.
Sorry for the rant
No
As a passenger I have always appreciated riding on Airbus stock with the A350-900 just feeling the absolute best quiet ride. And the A340-600 with the downstairs foyer of lavatories (Lufthansa only? not sure). So if they are going to purchase let's just hope its another awesome Airbus solution.
From my experience, the 380 is quieter than the 350 ... I sure hate to see the 380 go ...
I miss the 767 Domestic Flights. I would make sure to fly on on one from Detroit to Los Angeles. Even it met the red eye. I loved the seating on the 767. I would love to get a two seat side by the window. If you were flying with family you could get a few seats in rows where two people could sit next to each other. Now the only option is a 757. You could stand in the 767's because there were two isles. You could stand in the rear of the plane or in the middle by the rest rooms. The 757 is crammed full of seats.
In some ways very surprising that they have held on to the 767s so long, given that they could be getting fuel efficiencies from using newer planes. I'm not aware of any of the European airlines that still use the 767 for example.
This is more Medium Haul by Simple Flying
Love the videos :)
I like that we sometimes get to see the incredible people that make Simply Flying so good!
I flown the delta a330,-200, it was awesome i loved the mood lighting
I think the A330-800NEO is the best aircraft to replace the 767s. It doesn't have too many orders meaning that aircraft will be delivered much quicker, it is far cheaper than a 787, there is a common type rating because Delta already operates the -900NEO as well as the A330-200 and A330-300 and finally, it is the perfect size with a great fuel efficiency. I think the A330-800NEO is a wise choice.
The 330-800 is too big and heavy compared to 767. If they use the 330-800 at the same route as 767 and cannot fill it, the losses with the 330-800 will be much greater. That's why it's a complicated situation for Delta.
@@rv7w602 Oh yes, I forgot about how heavy the A330 is when compared to the 767s.
If the Delta is not pleased with Boeing progress on the NMA it can always select the A321XLR
that would be a great choice but the A330-800neo might fit a lot better Boeing has lost their way and just can't seem to build an aircraft without some fault so Delt it is Airbus all the way
A321XLR cannot replace the 767 m8. It replaces the 757.
Any NMA plane will not be flying before 2030 at the earliest. This isn't even an option.
@@holdensv2000 A330-800 is too big, much much heavier compared to 767. No use in operating such a heavy aircraft for a 767 replacement. Rather be safe with the A321xlr than operate in losses with A338.
@@baronvonlimbourgh1716 yes sir you have got that right so get the aircraft that is ready tried and tested and ready to go man
I love their 767s! So much more spacious and quicker to board, deplane, and maintain distance while doing so throughout the pandemic than the similarly sized 757. I am lucky enough to be able to use 767-300, -400, and 757-200, -300 for short haul MCOATL routes.
Omg you need to fly outside your zone more and saviour what the other side of aviation has to offer lol
@@jace1113 well I can once I'm able to travel more lol. I regularly visit ATL because that's where my gf lives. I just started a new job that is 60-70% domestic & int'l travel, so hopefully that will help me get on a 747 and an A380 soon!
Once they go back to full schedule to Atlanta the 767's will go away and they will go back to almost all narrow body again. Might get one once in a while right now but as far as I know they are not using them on the mco-atl or atl-mco route. Used to be a flight to GRU that would have a 767 come in for that from Atlanta.
@@evankalbach9985 yeah I had a feeling it was abnormal for 767s to be operating that route. I wonder if they use it seasonally during peak theme park tourism
The 330 is not a competive aircraft to replace the 767 300. There is a reason it does not sell.
The reality is that the 767 300 is an excellent aircraft that does many things well additionally single aisle aircraft are a pain.
how? the A330 has been competing with the 767 for ages and now it will be good to replace it with the A338
@@bananaboyxgaming1218 my company operated both aircraft. They do not not perform the same. 767 300er is a very successful aircraft for a reason. The 330 neo does not sell well for a reason. The airlines understand the difference.
@@larrydugan1441 a330 actually far better than b767 mainly the a332 ... But the problem rn a330neo is direct rival to b787 ... So thats why a330neo isn't replacement for b767
@@faizierazali3494 Apples and Oranges. The actual competition for the B767 was the A300. An important design in it's day.
The B767 is still in production 30 years later.
The A330 is only superficially similar to the B767.
The A321 and it's variants are the competition for the B767.
I would take a twin isle over a long single aisle anyday. The things are a nightmare to load and unload and far less chance of a window or an isle.
@@larrydugan1441 well a321 is to small for compete with b767 ... Even for b757 ... a330ceo is the only aircraft b767 can compete with but people taught the a330 is rival for b777 before a350 existance
I’m a mechanic for a rival airline.......I like Boeing products! They’re much easier to work with. Though i work on mostly airbus 319/321....& 737MAX....i like the 767! The Boeing products are so much easier & simpler to fix! Have you tried changing an airbus tire? NIGHTMARE!!
European cars and European aircraft go hand in hand in being a pain in the bum I guess 😎
@@kuckoo9036 no i’m not IA.......i just have a preference....just like everyone else!
@@kuckoo9036 i am not in inspection...... i have been a mechanic for a major airline over 19 years.......34 years for a major airline
@@kuckoo9036 i have worked in overhaul......& now the line......what do you do? I’m qualified on md80, 737, 737MAX, 757, 767, 777, airbus 319, airbus 320-321
If thats the case whats the delay on the 737 Max.
The A330neo, along with the rest of the A330 family in the fleet, is the option that Delta has to replace its 767s
With the current downturn in international demand, i somewhat expect that airlines could potentially downsize some of these flights to a321neo, assuming range and fleet availability would allow.
The only problem with that is that the A-321NEO doesn't have any crew rest areas and when you get to a certain length that has to be there by law.
TO THIS "SIMPLE FLIGHT" BLOGGER, MANY THANKS FOR DELTA'S 767 JET UPDATE, AND TO Y'ALL, 767 FLIGHT ONLOOKERS, KEEP ON FLYIN'!!
Love to see my home airport PDX in the first shot
I think the A330-800neo would be a good choice for Delta.
Hell no
@@itstomatogear6806 Why
@@briuiwnw7229nurjwnqoaakne ah yes, the 300-350 passenger capacity of the A350 seems like a good match for the 767 🙄
@@abelb.7997 yeah the a350 is more of a 777. They should’ve never canceled the 787 orders.
@@thepro_luis4274 Yeah, the 787 would fit the bill. I imagine it is more efficient than the 330-800, but then Delta orders seem to lean toward Airbus and fleet commonality might be a factor.
Another two (2) options for Delta
1) Used 787-8 market. You have ex-Norwegian, AeroMexico, LAN, Hainan, Avianca, etc., that were leased A/C that could provide Delta with a young feedstock of -8s. Without looking specifically, I'm sure you could find 15-20 A/C.
2) Ex-AAL A330-200s & A330-300s. There are 24 A/C that are stored after AAL retired all of them in April 2020.
I disagree. There is nothing wrong with the DL 763s that I've been on. All well-maintained and functional. If anything, it seems like UA's 777s are falling apart...
Yes, they are well maintained but due to their high number of cycles they’re reaching the end of their service life
I took my first 767 flight 26 years ago, and my next 767-300ER one will be on Delta next week from ANC > ATL. It's will be in FC with Delta One seat. Let's see how that feels.
As some others have said, the A330-800 neo would be a great option, it makes sense in my opinion.
Agree
I agree or the 787-8
Do you think that your opinion counts with the Delta Execs?..... :-)
@@BL-jt3qt it should!! the A330 neo is a fine aircraft but I'm sure they'll go Boeing again, they're not as forward thinking as American.
@@BL-jt3qt delta is decently going all airbus because of the economy
But the 767 are a great delta aircraft
The refurbished 767 400 are my most. Favourite aircraft in deltas fleet
Thank you, Mr. Roling. I too saw the 2-4-2 seating and knew it could not have been correct for either the 763 or 764. I too agree that the A330-800 seems to be the best bet. And I certainly hope more airlines, along with DL, would go with both of the A330 neo airliners as the 2-4-2 is much more comfortable than the crowded 3-4-3 on most 777s or the tight 3-3-3 on the Dreamliners. And lord help us re: the A321xlr-single aisle across the Atlantic? Not for me!
As someone who flies Delta almost exclusively, I hope Delta gives in and switches to Airbus.
After hearing horror stories from my Dad (an aerospace engineer whose company worked with Delta on government contracts) about Boeing's quality control and "special relationship" with the FAA even 20 years ago, I feel more than ever that the 737-MAX mess was not a fluke, but an inevitable outgrowth of Boeing coasting on and constantly retrofitting/revising 60 year old designs. I was shocked that Boeing, unlike other airlines, could devise safety tests and certify its own aircraft without a whole lot of oversight from the FAA. But Dad says upper levels of the FAA have a lot of ex-Boeing personnel- or at least it did 20 years ago- so they tend to favor the company.
Meanwhile, Airbus has to meet the EU's higher standards, and its planes are 21st century designs, more fuel efficient, comfortable, and fully integrated with modern technology. I didn't used to care which plane I flew; I only looked at flight schedules. But now that I'm older and know more about planes and corporate culture than I used to, I say: Airbus, please.
And you'd trust more a State-subsidised airline which is in bed with EU regulators?
I flew the 767-300er to stutgart in comfort seat very nice ,besides that I love this plane 2-3-2 seating is the best configuration on long haul too bad they going old and out of service soon.
I think since delta eliminated there 777s which were not that old, you can expect that they will continue to go with Airbus for long haul. A330-800neo and a330-900neo will be the main replacements and then probably mixed with some a322-LRs and a350s, it makes more sense to have commonality in long haul so that way it cuts training costs!
The A322 is not efficently madable due to the coffin corner, so more likely A321XLRs
well delta has 5 years to decide if a330neo is the long term replacement. perhaps Airbus will even develop a new and slightly smaller a330neo to more closely match 767 capacity, although that's doubtful, as the smaller a330neo-800 is selling more slowly than the a330neo-900. or perhaps delta really wants to extract the very last viable cycles out of their aging 767s before having to spend money
@@tomAkelife-ff9tf actually delta is more likely to purchase cheap A330-200 from the 2nd hand market to replace the B767 while waiting for the Boeing NMA to be launched.
@@Friedrich-oj9rs what is a A322 madable and a coffin corner ?
@@jimmymapua574 I apologize for my english, i wanted to say that you can't fly the A322 efficiently-> The coffin corner:
As you know, the higher you get, the thinner the air gets so the faster you have to fly to not stall out. But on the same time, the critical Mach number of the plane (normally 0.8 or something aeound that) gets closer. Now, the A322 had (nearly) the same wings of the A320, so you needed more speed (because of the bigger and linger plane) in order to create more lift in order to fly. So you had to fly very low (with high air density =less speed for more lift) at the beginning of the flight to burn fuel to get lighter, because on the normal flying height (≈30.000-40.000ft) you would A. Stall out because of too less speed or B. Damage your plane by flying too close to the critical Mach number. If you didnt get anything, just ask🙂
Delta just needs to bite the bullet and go for the 330-800 NEO. I’m surprised that delta would even be pushing/considering the NMA since that alone would add complexity to their fleet which they don’t want. The 330-800 would work great from the crew standpoint alone...keeping their costs down significantly
The A220 already has made their fleet complex since it's a bombardier design and is different from actual Airbus planes. Plus, for bigger airlines having a complex fleet is no problem in the first place. The A330-800 is not a suitable replacement for being a middle of the market plane. Why do you think United and American with their 787-8 (slightly smaller than A330-800) have still stuck with the 767? It's because the 330-800 and 787-8 are too big and heavy to be true 767 replacement. It's not as easy to replace the 767 as you might think m8.
If it was that easy ... The A330-800 is not optimized for markets where the 767-300 mainly operates -- flights of 7-9 hours. Its too heavy and has too much range. And if an Airline does not need the range of the -800 they would just order the -900 as it seats around 40 more passengers with an extra empty weight of just 3 (three!) tons. But the A330-900 is too large for many of the 767-300 routes.
Of course they could lower the MTOW of the A330-800 to save some fees but it would still have a too heavy structure and too large fuel tanks.
Wait for the NMA, commit to large order in exchange for preferential order status on new air frames and reduced maintenance on 767 fleet. There is a hardly a shortage of airframes at the moment so better to get the right plane later in the cycle and work out shorter term contingencies in the interim.
Ever flew on a B767 ER from Singapore to Christchurch , NZ on ANZ before they retired the fleet, and reatructured after ANZ bought over and ran Ansett Airlines to the ground , my trip a very lousy , exhausting journey that made the plane do more than it can handle on passenger comfort. 2 -3 -2 seating, stuck in middle seat, cant sleep, seats too narrow, the air con system not optimised felt hot and sweaty midway in flight, engine noise was loud, plane was ageing, frayed carpets , frayed seat covers, and plain inflight catering. I swore never to fly in an ageing 767 again.
Nowadays , ANZ is so much better after writing off Ansett Airlines and buying the B777-300 ER, better seats， great food and wine, nicer airport lounges, love ANZ
Why no replacement? Because Boeing has steadfastly refused to offer what the airlines asked for. United even issued a request to Boeing for new 767-300ERs a couple of years ago, based on the 767 being in production for the KC-46 and -300F. Boeing simply said no, wait for the new design . . . and wait . . . and wait . . . and wait.
With the A321, A350 and 330 already in the fleet, Delta may well add the A321XLR and/or A330-800 to cover 757 and 767 missions from above and below. It would make a lot of sense. My bet would be trading the A330-200s to Airbus for a larger A330-800 fleet.
Capacity wise the 787-8 would be a good replacement for the 767-300ER. Both have similar capacity with the 787 being more cost efficient and having more range.
Given that boeing is not able to deliver a new NMA until 2025, even if they try hard, the answer is pretty easy - combination of a330neo and a321xlr. I think that delta was really hoping that boeing will go forward with a new NMA but it is already too late anyway. Pity...
And these days I'd think there would not be much confidence on any new Boeing meeting whatever timetable to service were announced
I love the 767 so much. Many of my favorite flights - with my wife too and from Europe - are on the 767.
man, as qantas found out, (and really, it is still feeling that lack of a true 100% replacement) the 767 is extremely hard to replace
it has a great cargo carrying ability,
per pax, it has to have one of THE shortest turn around times, (180 pax, name a quicker aircraft to turnaround from gate arrival to push back, i dont think you will!!)
it also fit into many many more gates at airports (domestic and intl) meaning it is very flexible in terms of ground handling when things go wrong, or there are delays
Boeing should restart production on the 767. I believe they still produce the 767F so it shouldn't be too costly. Strap on modern engines on the -400 wing and you're good to go. 👌
The MAX wasn't too costly either, from just strapping on new engines...
The 767 with new engines (and wing material, not design) is the 787-8
767 MAX what could possibly go wrong....
767 with leap engines require MCAS
@@davidegomez3026 It's a bit bigger and I prefer the 2-3-2 configuration of the 767. A updated 767-200 would be the perfect NMA for me.
I miss 767s. I don’t think anyone in the US has them anymore besides Delta, but I can’t shake the feeling Boeing peaked with the 757 and 767, both of which were always a pleasure to fly on.
United still have many 767-300s and -400s, mainly operating the transatlantic services.
An aircraft not mentioned in this video is the existing A321XLR. It gets a measly range of 4700nm, almost 1300 less miles than the 767-3 band only 150-170 seats in delta’s seating configs but could be a potential game changer for Delta’s long haul 767 routes as it is made in partnership with Airbus, meaning they would get a juicy discount if buying in bulk and would also be on the cheaper maintenance side. The 321XLR is also very cheap compared to long haul widebody aircraft.
Well, Delta can offer excellent comfort to passengers if the seating capacity is of the 767. A330-800 NEO is very wide, allowing for extra space, which would give Delta an another plus point against the competitors. A330-800 NEO can perfectly allow the London route. The powerful and very efficient RR Trent-700 engines are very good and better than the 767 engines. The A330-800 NEO requires one of the smallest length of a runway in the widebody section, this would mean that the plane can access many airports, or land/take-off from in the mid-part of the long runway. This also means that Heathrow would not express difficulties in maintaining the plane. The plane is very good, and exceeds 767. Replacing 767 with an A321 LR/XLR would not be a good choice. The A321 would be the best replacement for the 757's.
767-400 Delta One is nice. Flying again ATL - LIM next week.
The A339s are a good replacement, since the load factor on the 763s was always higher than 95% - the markets have demand for the extra space. JFKMAD was a 764 route prepandemic. 763s were very common on ATL to Central America and parts of South America. No one will miss them on ATLSCL or ATLGRU, the A339s or A359s will stay full.
The A330-900neos are too big and too heavy to replace the 767-300ERs, and the A350-909 has the capacity of a Boeing 777-300ER. So the most logical replacement would be some A330-800neos or secondhand A330-200s
DL cannot replace a 767-300ER with a 767-400ER. The only 767s being in production are 767-300F and KC-46s. They will have to choose between second-hand A330-200, A330-800 or go to B787-8.
Sad to see these classics go, I think they should extend their life to 2030 to give them time to pick up the massive 50 aircraft order wether for A330Neos or the Boeing NMA
Aircraft can only to a specific amount of cycles. It’s complicated to (safely) operate an aircraft after its usual service life, which is why it’s not just about "extending their life"
Dreamliner 787 is awesome! The best aircraft I ever flew!
Airbus A 350
@@Luckyamor those 2 aircraft aren’t competitors
@@ericgu9036 Wdym the A350 was developed as the Airbus competitor to the Dreamliner and it does really good at that job. Boeing just decided to bounce back with the 777X series which is meant to compete with the A350.
@@internetperson9813 you idiot the 787-8 and 787-9 do not meet with the a350's size. It was never to compete with the 787. Just because the 2 look-alike doesn't make them competitors.
I expect them to go for the A330-800NEO as it makes more sense financially and fits in to fleet communality plan. Chances that Boeing has a new NMA ready in time is not very likely.
“In time...”
You’re funny.
I'm a DAL frequent flier. As much as I wish they'd stick with the Boeing products, the Airbus equivalents are superior. If Boeing hasn't come up with a product, they're done and out.
DAL could keep the younger B763's and supplement with B772's. I think the ATL and NYC to London could support a B772. Smaller markets to Europe, though, that can't work with B753's are stuck.
I really would like to see more domestic B763 flights. The problem is these 3-5 hour flights take up cycles the airframes simply can't sustain. The whole problem.
It's got to be the A330-800's. They're there. They're available and in stock now. Make a deal on them and grab them while you can. Competitors could grab a few just to screw DAL.
DAL can't start the B787's. They've got no pilot, no maintenance, etc. for the bird. That's not an option. When Boeing gets off their tails and figures out what they can build (and what the market will order, and honestly, where they'll build it and with what workforce), they're sitting better.
I would also throw in their 757s, too, into this whole equation in regards to a likely change coming to their fleet with a likely retirement of them, as well. They already did away with their MDs, and other airlines are rapidly retiring their entire 777 & 757 fleets, too, which Delta clearly is proving they're okay with being one of the last airlines to follow suit throughout recent history.
The A330neo-800 would be a good choice for DELTA
Financially it’s not worth it. The -800 and -900 have virtually the same costs for maintenance, crew (1 extra flight attendant), ground and ATC fees, and a few other things.
The CASM for the -900 is cheaper. Furthermore, the type is an orphan; very few financiers and lessors will touch it.
@@soravulpis96 maybe, but you forgot to talk about fuel consumption, wich is 25% lower on the A330-800 compared to the 767-300er so the costs is lower with the A330-800, and regarding the climatic situation, it might be smarter to choose new aircraft rather than 20 y old one...
@@laurentbeaujour9528 yeah, but they still burn more fuel than the 787
Delta should have gone with NWA's order of 787s and added options for more aircraft. Nothing beats a 787 for an airline operation like Detla on fuel efficiency and being the correct size and range. However, "Delta Anderson made a bad call going with Airbus because he got a deal for A330 NEO's. Just like the A350 was the wrong plane. Delta should have expanded their 777 fleet with 777-300ER.
I'm not saying this because I like Boeing better than Airbus it's just what would have made sense to have the correct size aircraft with simplest fleet possible.
The 787 could have replaced all of their 767 and old A330s.
@@s2v8377 carry more people
When Delta ditched the 777's so soon, it made me wonder if they are headed down an all Airbus fleet eventually once they retire the 767s 757s and the 737s they still have. All of those Boeing planes are getting very old
Not Delta’s 737-900(ER)s, they are relatively new.
@@ScottRothsroth0616 not to mention their Airbus fleet isn’t all shiny and new either, and they have a bunch of older Airbus planes that will be coming to an end to their life soon too.
Delta may exchange the 717 for the 737 MAX.
@@fohat687 haven’t heard of that how new is that?
@@davidegomez3026 I can't fix the site, please search on google!
Delta seems to be going all-in on Airbus to meet its future needs, so once again, the A330-800 NEO is a solid shout, fleet commonality with the -900 NEO they already have, will benefit them. It would be a boost for Airbus as well, not only increasing their -800 order book but inspiring more confidence in other airlines to buy with a commitment from a respected brand like Delta. But how's an A321XLR combo with the -800 NEO? Delta has yet to place an XLR order like AA and United, so who knows, the XLR in a high-density configuration could nearly match the 767 for capacity.
This B767-300ER has been a pain in the backside on many routes and has never carried the full complement of cargo and passengers... On flights from Atlanta to Europe and back they always had to choose between passengers and cargo and always having to limit passengers because the cargo had an specific weight and had to compensate by reducing the passenger load and you always could see at boarding asking passengers for volunteers to take a flight the next day and others seat them on competing airlines to their destination you could see this day after day it is a fight with fuel, weight and passenger load and cargo.... Whatever they decide they need to make sure it has enough range, fuel and seats to take the people that so many times they leave behind due to the limitations of that particular aircraft!...
As much as I would like to say 787-8 I think it will be a330-800. Based upon the fact they already have a330s. It would be interesting to know what the cross training is like for pilots from 767 - 787, vs 767 - a330?
Also boring isn't really selling the 787-8 to any new customers, only some existing ones. The manufacturing processes are quite different from the -9 and -10 and it's not at all as profitable as the other two...
Did you mean Airbus 320-Airbus 330?? The 787 and 767 have nothing in common with a A330. Well, they both have wings, two engines a tail and landinf gear
There is no "cross-training." It is a full long term training program (2-3 months). The 757 and 767 share a type rating and technically the 777 and 787 programs can be combined but none of the US airlines that operate them participate in the latter.
I flew on a Delta 767-400ER from Paris to JFK a few years ago and I was pleasantly surprised. Although the plane was clearly old, the seats were a lot more comfortable than other long haul flights I’ve been on. Personally I think Delta should replace the 767s with Boeing Dreamliners, but the a330-800 sounds like a smart buy as well.
The 757's were so smooth. 😍✈
Doesn't everyone wish that McDonnell-Douglas were still around and updated their legendary stretch Eights? Man, were those ever some aircraft. Nothing like them around today. Ohhhh, the nostalgia.....
A330-800 Neo seems like the ideal solution here... not too big, not too small... decent range to operate to Europe, South America, West Africa... good compatibility with other aircraft in the Delta line up
I'm so sad I can't believe I misses a simple flying video
I had really good flying experiences with the 76 also the 75
Just got back from EDI and flew Delta One on a 767. It was fine but will avoid the 767 in the future. Lay flat seats were super narrow and there was little room in general. The folding tray was cumbersome at best and the inflight entertainment display was a rather pitiful tiny low-res screen. Better than the back but not worth the cost. A330-300 on the way over and it was adequate.
2-3-2 for the win
Now wonder they wanted the new 797
Which comes when?
@@AnishAbraham nevuarary looks like
I took a delta 767-300 a few months ago from GRU to JFK and the plane was fine and modern, from a interior perspective. It doesn’t appears to be that old
The A330-900s were ordered to be the 767-300 replacement. Yes, they're a bit larger, but demand increases over time (and was doing so especially rapidly prior to the pandemic.) Replacing them with an aircraft ~15-20% larger is unlikely to be a larger problem. They can put the 330-200s or 764s on the thinner routes and the 339s on the rest. The 339 will be especially good for the premium London routes because they allow Delta to fit its premium Delta One Suites product, unlike the 767s, which are too narrow for it.
NMA would likely be the ideal replacement if it were available, but the odds of NMA being ready to go in time for Delta to replace its 767-300 fleet are approximately 0. If/when it's available for sell, though, I do see all 3 of the major U.S. carriers as being extremely likely customers, both for replacing their huge 757 fleets and their 767 fleets. NMA would be great for both premium trans-con routes as well as trans-Atlantic - and especially trans-Atlantic flights to secondary markets. It has the potential to really accelerate the trend started mostly by the 787 of opening up medium-market cities to non-stop long-haul routes. These are VASTLY more comfortable on a smaller widebody than on something like the 321XLR. 10 hours is just too long for a narrowbody. They're just getting all of the orders right now because there's no suitable replacement on the market for the 757 and 767 and the 321XLR is the least bad remaining option. Airbus really his a stroke of luck there that Boeing ran into all of the delays with the 737 MAX and 777X programs, keeping their engineering resources too tied up to start on the NMA. If the NMA were already available, it should crush the 321XLR.
not sure why they dont look at 787-8. Its literally the replacement for the 767-300er
I agree 100% if you remember Delta had 20 787-8 s on the book from their northwest merger but they canceled them. Too this day I'm still not sure the reason for that move! I think the 788s fit in better than the a338s as the 788s allow for more cargo capacity
Because the CEO most likely has some backdoor deal with Airbus.
@@auburnalum9019 One of the many reasons I stopped flying Delta. Awkward seat configurations and frequent maint issues with their airbus fleet.
Nah, Delta, despite being my favorite airline, is too crazy to buy any new Boeing aircraft.
I always loved the 767; I will be sorry to see them disappear from passenger service.
Their Q1 report 2021 states 29 330-900neo orders and 100 (+100options) 321-200neo orders. Is this part of the answer or are they only intended to replace 757s and older 737s (avg. age 20yrs)? (as of March 31)
This video is based on the premise that delta will actually retire the 767 in 5 years as announced. As a CRJ200 pilot.... I’ll believe it when I see it.
What do you think will happen to the Crj200s aren’t most of them reaching there retirement age
787-8: best option.
A330-800neo: probably
Il-96: definately 😂😂
is 4 engines and costly to operate
A321-XLR a great fit, good economy.
Boeing missed the trick when it didn't upgrade the 757
I suggest the Airbus 350-900 and the Airbus 330-800 as alternatives to the Boeing 767, which I agree need to be replaced. On the other hand, I would like to point out the Boeing 767 with its 2-3-2 configuration in Economy Class is an extremely comfortable option for medium haul travel, especially when it is refurbished and when the modern inflight entertainment systems and newer inflight products. I recently flew with a United Airlines Boeing 767 for a medium haul flight and the inflight product was very modern and the flight itself was excellent.
What is a pressurization cycle?
Wouldn’t a 787-8 be an almost direct replacement for a -300?
Yes, the 787 was the replacement for the 767 and old 777-200s
Economies of scale is basically what lets Delta continue to make a profit off their 767s. They have so many of the damn things that means they can deal in bulk when it comes to parts and the maintenance logistics. Other airlines that still operate just a handful of 767s often have delays thanks to a shortage of available parts or mechanics.
But wait, isn't a "dreamliner" a replacement to 767?
The newer A330-900neos are shaping up to be the only suitable replacement. The A350 and 787 aren't designed for shorter domestic flights and cost much more to mantain when used in this manner, but the 900neo *is*. The new ones have reinforced airframes and landing gear for operating 4-5 flights per day without costing too much to mantain, and they've started selling very well for this purpose.
I think the A330-800 is the best choice as delta alredy have crew for a330. But the MTOW is a bit heavy for a 767 replacement.
Well I think the rest of the comments agrees that the A330-800neo is a good replacement. As they have A320s and A330neos can basically have pilots WHO FLEW the A320 before to fly on the A330neo(-900 and -800) B787-8 may be too big and heck not sure but their A330-200 is aging too? Maybe the -800 can help cover that aswell.
you guys are so right I like when great minds think alike there is no better Aircraft company than the Airbus company and if I had an Airline I go with an All Airbus fleet to save my self from the trouble that Boeing is in
@@holdensv2000 but then again simple flying is right too. Maybe not just a full Airbus fleet. Unless delta really wants to go Boeing then go for the B797 which is still in the mamking. Delta have B757 which are aging as well. Either they can get more A321LRs or get close with the B797.
@@ludwigtails \but the 797 is not even on paper and with all the trouble Boeing has on their plate it would be wise to wait for them to get their act together so it is airbus all the way
@@holdensv2000 mhm. Sometimes I thought Boeing was winning all the way in the long haul and mid range cuz B787. Airbus ain’t selling well. as B787 is almost everywhere in the skies. A350 are kinda rare? Even A330neo both -800 and -900 is a rare sight to see.
@@ludwigtails but you should know that the 787 has a number of problems from fuselage brakes and windshield cracks as well the computer goes haywire on long flights I got this info from Maximus Aviation you should go to the site and see how this 787 dream line is not so good as you think
I think delta should order the Airbus a330-800neo.
If Delta can't get the a330-800neos by the end of 2025, one option would be to extend the retirement of the 767-300ER until they receive enough a330-800neos
Boeing should offer 757-8 or -9 & 767-9 or -10. That would suit the airline well.
Pause for thought, and a chuckle. The CR-929....LOL
A330-800 is probably their safest bet
And it’s a beautiful aircraft
Missed an important flight from Newark to Paris CDG in 2003. The next flight was a Delta on a 767. I had no choice but to purchase a ticket.
And already back then the plane felt old 😂
What about a mix of the following two fleet strategies?: A good D-check and new cabins for about 25 of Delta's best 767-300ER airframes, mixed with 15 new A321LR's (converted from an existing order of 125 A321neo aircraft).
Or perhaps 25 D-checks and some used A330-200's for dirt cheap?