Repertoire: The BEST Mahler 8th--The Symphony of a Thousand (Errors?)
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- Опубликовано: 21 май 2020
- Mahler's epic Eighth Symphony is no longer the major event that it used to be, and really ought still to be, and the number of completely successful recordings is surprisingly few. Here they are.
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I still remember when I discovered the piece, I couldn't believe that such music existed, I was totally blown away.
I've had the pleasure of hearing this work live on four occasions. Recordings serve as reminders of those live performances. I'm so grateful to have your recommendations regarding recordings. I'll check them out and meanwhile look for another live performance. It's time to hear it live once again.
I experienced a live performance with Klaus Tennstedt in London with the LPO. It was an event in every way and a massive performance that is imprinted in my memory. I also studied singing with John Mitchinson who was a last minute replacement for the Bernstein recording which catapulted his career and it was a piece he sang many times and said it was always an event.
Awesome! What year? My dad played it with Tennstedt in 88
Wit’s recording, a blu-Ray disc, finally
at age 83 got me to finally like this
work.
Great line "....you don't want to be aware of this giant machine in operation. You just want to hear the result". Excellent review - thanks
Held off on the Wit recording until today & boy was I transported, the buildup to the finale (the second to last track) was perhaps the greatest most heavenly 5 mins I’ve ever heard. You said it, it was flowing & natural!
Dave: I've heard M8 live eight times, the latest being James Conlon's magnificent performance in Cincinnati three weeks ago. I've lived with M8 for 51 years and you are spot-on: Wit's recording is one I've been waiting for since 1972. Of course, I bought the Solti LPs when they came out, but I always found that record shrill and one-dimensional. Wit and his outstanding engineers really capture the work. Great catch, Dave!
Thank you David for the recommendation of the fantastic Mahler 8 with Wit and Warsaw National. Deeply beautiful. I just knew the Solti/Chicago and Abbado/Berlin versions (the recordings I have). This Naxos release is now my favorite. If it wasn't for your video I would have never bought this one. I bought the download version from Presto Music in 24Bit/96kHz audio quality and it is superb.
My pleasure!
Thank you sir ! I have been searching for long and you pointed a way for me.
I'm glad you're not as swayed by cover art as I am! I always need an extra nudge to opt for Naxos, because theirs is so dreary. Of course, there's plenty of repertoire where they're the only game in town, and I can't say I've ever been disappointed in their recordings. I might, in fact, buy the Wit, since my appreciation for the 8th could use a boost.
I have million Mahler 8's because I really like the piece. Your two top choices, Bertini and Wit, are right up there - as good as in my collection.
I recently checked this video for your recommendation on the 8th, and I'm glad that I did. I just listened through it, and it is superb, for all the reasons you list.
I'm especially impressed with the sensitive shaping of the vocal soloists' extensive passages in the first movement; definitely the best I've heard, ESPECIALLY since they help delineate the movement's overall structure. The main "Impetuoso" sections are now clearly heard as the main architectural material (as opposed to everything being fast and loud). The vast Second Movement actually seems to unfold as a major dramatic event, so clearly paced and built as it progresses. Brilliantly done.
I could have used a bit more "lingering" in the lovely passage of the Penitent and the 3 Biblical ladies, my favorite section of the work (OK, so shoot me), but the preceding "hovering/schwebend' passage is ecstatically gorgeous, which is JUST what's required at this point. (I should point out that every time Mahler writes "nicht schleppend", Wit actually speeds up a bit, not really what's intended). Then there's the build-up to the Finale, beginning with the most lovingly rendered "Blicket Auf" that you will ever hear; it's enough to make you weep with joy (and the tenor soloist is very good). Not much to say about the ending that the performance doesn't say 1,000 better than I could (and the massive Tam-tam...holy cow!). I initially felt that the slightly-too-abrupt final chord was somewhat miscalculated, until I sensed that the DRIVE that we feel in the closing seconds may actually be connected to the 1st Movement's "Impetuoso" tempo, something of a mini-revelation to me.
I'd never give up Bernstein, Abbado, Neumann/Czech (the big passages still unequaled, IMO), but Wit is definitely here to stay. Thank again., 3 years later. LR
Your output of reviews is prolific!
I stocked up before starting. Once I get to about 50 or so release volume will slow down a bit and find a regular rhythm, but I wanted to launch with a nice variety of options for viewers, so I am adding them in groups.
@@stevemolino1 LOL back! It's a visual medium.
Have probably at least 20 recordings and Gielen's live recording from 1981 in Frankfurt is the one that really draws me in. Lots of energy and the feeling of it really being a special event.
What label is this on? Thanks
@@episodesglow It's on Sony.
I have fond memories of a performance by the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain at the 2002 Proms, conducted by Simon Rattle. It's available in 8-9 minute chunks on RUclips, but the whole recording has never been issued by the BBC, which is a real shame. Whilst not one of the greatest (I agree that Wit and Bertini take some beating), seeing these young musicians rising to the challenge of Mahler's Eighth, and doing it so well, never fails to move me.
Thank you for sharing your experiences with us!
Grew up with the Solti -listening to it today (in New Zealand) since it’s the Day if Pentecost
solti thought this was his best recording. btw, solti has received more grammy's than any other individual, thou there are hundreds, if not thousands standing behind him to that end
your assessment of the Solti is right-on. It was a true game changer for collectors but that was half a century ago.
I was at that horrendous Botstein Carnegie Hall 8th too. It was so embarrassingly bad, my jaw was dropped from the balcony to the loge. I truly have never witnessed such a mess, They couldn't play together to save their lives. And the soloists were off from the orchestra near the end. Just atrocious. Such a magnificent piece when done right, though.
Mahler's 8 review in 9 minutes? Can't believe but David surely nailed it. No mention of Nagano (popular choice, but weak tenor and weird tempos) or Chailly (either Concertgebouw or Gewandhaus - both very good). Still, Solti is amazing and the first choice for me (stellar cast, glorious Chicago brass) and Antony Wit is a pleasant surprise and highest recommendation into anyone's Mahler collection.
and solti's cso recording is almost exactly the same length as mahler's first performance.
i do not thik d. hurwitz thinks much of solti, but thinks better of the cso
Wit's recording on Naxos unusual and different in the focus he puts on the integration of the choral and vocal singing - hadn't heard that approach before. Will need to listen to that again - but liked the excerpts I heard for sure. This is Mahler so there's an opinion for every performance from every person. I, do, really value your trenchant wit and passion for music David! Personally, I can't say the same for Gielen's 8th (very idiomatic - and, for me, just kinda ho hum). Same for Bertini.... I've got about 15 Mahler 8ths - and still prefer Tennstedt and Solti. Keep up the reviews. You are costing me a lot of money - but in a good way! :-)
Thanks for your take on an exciting composition. It WOULD be an event to hear Mahler 8 here in St. Louis. The last live performance of the SLSO was with Walter Susskind in 1975, and the only other one was with Eleazar de Carvalho in about 1965. Your comment about potential disaster certainly was true in one of de Carvalho's performances (he was Koussevitzky's student--the other one was Leonard Bernstein). At the very end, the extra brass section (located remotely) didn't cut off when everybody else did. De Carvalho was unflappable and made it sound like the "ending" was intentional; anybody that didn't know the piece was probably convinced it was written that way.
Bernstein's exciting performance on video is worth a look. Facial expressions and body gyrations even before the piece starts is worth the price of the disk.
Chailly's video is worth a look: it's certainly weighty--if I count correctly, the orchestra contains 16 double basses (!).
You're spot on with Bertini and Wit--these are two underrated artists.
Thanks for sharing your own experience. I hope you get a chance to hear the work (done right) soon.
Thanks for this: I'd never heard of Bertini until I heard your reviews and after listening I must agree: It's even better than Solti, Shaw, and Rattle. It is my favourite recording of Mahler's 8th!
Thank you for the recommendation of Antoni Wit recording.
It was everything and more as you said.
The best I have listened to by far.
Many thanks.
I had a couple of versions, including Solti’s. On your recommendation, I purchased the Wit and Warsaw version. Thank you.
Now I am listening to the Tennstedt LPO version (on the LPO label).
Thank you so much for this great review. :-) I do absolutely love this work but you are so right, there is so much room for error. I do agree that this is a work that needs careful preparation and perhaps very technical "robotic" preparation as far as the singing goes, before artistry and interpretation can come out of that. Artistry and expression are, of course, just as important but I think the mechanics of the music must be established first (particularly in the choral forces). I do think that there is such a thing as "too much" even with this work. Having literally "1000" or more performers is perhaps too much... I do love the Antoni Wit recording and was so happy you mentioned it. Personally for me, my definitive recording of this symphony is Robert Shaw's Atlanta Symphony recording from Telarc. (Have you heard it?) It is truly breathtaking (to me) and Shaw was certainly a conductor who always "got out of the way" of the music and allowed it to unfold naturally. Being famous for his choral clarity, hearing the ASO chorus sing this work is such a treat and they do it brilliantly. His selection of soloists is also incredibly pleasing, and they don't sound "screamy" or like their struggling; they actually sing their notes... :-) Thank you for this great review!! :-)
Thanks for commenting. Frankly, I find Shaw to be deathly dull. The singing, of course, is wonderful, but there's so much orchestral detail that he simply doesn't bring out, and the big climaxes are surprisingly restrained and lacking in impact.
No hace mucho escuche y por milagro encontré el ciclo de Bertini y cuando llegue la octava y la termine de escucharla fue una VERDADERA fuerza de la naturaleza hecha música después de la novena de Beethoven. Recién estoy escuchando la versión de Wit, y es OTRA fuerza de la naturaleza equivalente y no puedo decidir cual es es mejor. Simplemente es como comparar un huracán con un tornado en términos de poder.
I saw Solti's live performance of the 8th Symphony in Chicago at the Lyric Opera House in about 1970. It's been 50 years, but I'm almost certain the program also included Vladimir Ashkenazi playing Beethoven's Emperor Concerto. Whew! Needless to say, that was a pretty massive - and long - undertaking. The piece was recorded later that year in Vienna, during the orchestra's first European tour. I understand a number of parts of the recording (the organ, among other things) were done offsite and dubbed in later. That could be why the recording often seems a bit disjointed.
Interestingly, I heard the 8th a few years later at Ravinia, conducted by James Levine, the festival's music director at the time. It was played quite effectively by a much smaller group of performers. The opening piece on that program was Stravinsky's arrangement of the National Anthem.
Thanks for letting me know that James Levine had conducted Mahler 8th, as I could not find his recording of Mahler 8th.
@@wendychen5779
I may have misled you. I saw Levine conduct Mahler's 8th live at the Ravinia Festival outside of Chicago. I don't know if he ever recorded it.
sad news for me: i finally got around to ordering the mahler 8th, cso/solti, of course. i started to play the disc this afternoon, only to start hearing momentary silent bits, which i could not believe were in the score. then after a few minutes, a sound like a phonograph's needle sliding over the vinyl. i was so disappointed. i wrote the seller (on ebay) and she immediately sent me a mailing label (post paid!) and i bought another copy. it is, btw, always a good idea to check on ebay seller's return policy. some just refuse to do that. i would never buy a used disc (or maybe even a sealed new one) if i could not return it.
The Wit performance was recorded in surround sound so if you are into this sort of thing, there is a 5.1 Blu-ray-audio version.
Thx, David, for recomending Antoni Wit! Very transparent and well balanced! Wonderful playing and singing! Decent organ! Just listened to movement 1. Still I find that Bernstein's Columbia recording carries a little more weight and has more drive. I particularly enjoyed how he took the recapitulation just a bit slower than the beginning thus adding tothe movement's solemnity. Matter of fact, I attended the Salzburg Festival performance in 1975 with the VPO, which was unfortunately wrecked by the electronic organ they have there: a total disgrace! If you want do do the Eighth, you must pick a concert hall with a grand organ. Of course, with a studio production you can always dubb it in, as John McClure obviously did in Bernsteins Columbia recordung. I am referring to the original vinyl record, not the Sony CD, which turned out comparatively flat ...
I love all the renditions. I have them in this order 1. Solti.2.Bertini.3. Wit. I cannot blame anyone for having any of these as their number 1.
David, for the longest time, after first hearing the 8th, my mind was closed to it. I thought it was overblown and pretentious. Besides that, I didn’t consider it a Symphony, what with all the vocals and choruses. I’m generally not a fan of Classical vocal music to begin with. There are notable exceptions of course, like Beethoven’s 9th. Anyway, I heard the Solti/CSO on the radio last night and my mind’s ear (if you will) was suddenly opened. It’s a glorious, beautiful, powerful work! I’ll be checking out the Witt for sure.
Hey Dave I was at that Botstein Mahler 8 too!! Carnegie Hall in Fall of 2012, right? Yeah I always remember that as the worst live performance I've ever been too.
It was special!
Nice discussion!
Thank you.
As a historical document, Stokowski's live job application for the NYPhil is a very good performance. He is, I think, the only recorded conductor who was present at the preparation of the premiere, and he got excellent results from the assembled forces in Carnegie Hall. Adequate mono sound.
Pierre Monteux prepared the chorus, and was much upset at Mahler's criticism. One of those times one would have loved to be a fly on the wall.
@@peterheiman8621 Interesting! I know Monteux was well-regarded even in 1910, but had no idea he was drafted to help on this.
@@mendax1773 Even without that, he was not the most gifted accompanist.
The 8th I think is my favorite Mahler symphony. I sang it with Chorus 1. Chorus 2 was the splendid Philharmonia Chorus and the Orquestra de València.
If it was in 2017 in València, I was there in the audience. It is one of my most cherished memories. It came all splendidly together.
@@antonimerceianyo4566 Exacte, va ser aquell any. Sigueren dos concerts de la huitena en dies successius. Una experiència inoblidable per a mi.
Thanks a lot for the Bertini suggestion, first time I enjoyed the first movement as a whole! What do you think of the live Mahler 8 with Jansons and RCO? Cheers!
While my fascination for Mahler symphonies 1-7 and 9 only increases after every listening, after 20 years, I have never been able to like his 8th. I´ll keep trying... :)
It's not my favorite either, but when I'm in the mood it's amazing.
Enjoying your reviews very much. Do you plan one devoted to Mahler's Tenth; if not the whole piece, at least the opening Adagio?
It's not a "great" recording but I'm happy to have Rattle's live Eighth, recorded in Birmingham with some excellent singers, Christine Brewer and John Relyea are two. He keeps it moving, for me it really hangs together, and the last 5 minutes or so really grab me by the throat every time.
I will probably do a talk on Mahler's Tenth, hopefully not too soon!
Botstein & his outfit often sound under-prepared. I can't even remember all the times I've heard one of their performances on here that didn't have at least one pretty bad mistake in the first minute (either intonation or someone in the brass knocking one over pretty spectacularly). I'm certain their only plus is that they often tackle very rarely heard works which is definitely their main selling point, although arguably you hear them do some hidden gem and just wonder how much better it will sound in someone else's hands.
Agreed about Wit too, he's a really good conductor, his Lutoslawski series on Naxos completely turned me to that composer, his Turangalila is fantastic too. Not heard his Mahler 8 ( I will now though) but not surprised he judges it just right.
I enjoyed your survey of Mahler 8 recordings and after allowing some time to pass I listened to a performance today...however about four minutes into the first movement once again I was struck by that gnawing feeling that I'm sure you're aware of: namely the use of Mahler's motif by John Williams in his score of "Schindler's List". Of course this isn't the only example of "inspired use" of other composers' material by Williams and other film composers. I would really appreciate hearing your thoughts on this issue. Thanks for all you've doing!
There are only so many notes in a scale. Who knows where this stuff comes from?
@@DavesClassicalGuide Your point is generally valid, but there are too many similarities, in my view, between Holst's Planets and Williams' Star Wars l, for example, to write this off as karma or kismet...Just sayin...
@@martinhochbaum8936 Yes, but you were talking about Mahler. The Holst/Star Wars derivation is clear. In Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan (I think that's the one) the Enterprise gets destroyed to the actual music of Prokofiev's Romeo at Juliet's Grave. But often similar situations or moods lead to similar musical settings.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Mahler at 3:40...and thanks...All the best!
Just as I was reading your remark and listening to the reviewed perfomance, I heard the theme that indeed resembles the one from Schindler's List. How's that for a coincidence? ;-)
Took you're advice and added Wit's rendition of the 8th to my ever-expanding Mahler collection. On first listen it sounds splendid. Not so keen on the tenor, though, but everything else sounds great. And how about those tam tams at the end? Admit it, that's the real reason you picked it as your no1 choice. 😊
Nope.
@@DavesClassicalGuide aw ☹️
Hello, Mr. Hurwitz. I do like your videos about Classical music. I also have a request: could you make survey videos about Vivaldi 's Four Seasons and L' estro armonico. Thank you.
The Four Seasons was done a while ago. I've been thinking about doing more...
Mr Hurwitz...have you heard Mahler Sym 8 with Runnicles with the Royal Scotish National Orch... any comments
Bertini is indeed amazing
Not an ideal cast of singers but Nagano's is a front runner for me. Incredibly beautiful with so much textural detail.
The Nagano is beautifully recorded, that's for sure. It isn't in my personal top tier, but it's very good indeed.
I started out with Bernstein's with London forces. Then experienced Solti on London. I loved both but had a problem with Solti's tam tams at the end. They sound like garbage can lids to me. I've heard it once in SF in the early 70s with Ozawa. Very good! Is it true that Mahler found out about Alma's affair just before the premiere?
“ you just have to keep it moving “ spot-on.
To that end I’m glad that my introduction to Mahler 8 was the Kubelik version .
To my taste, Kubelik had the best overall cast of soloists of anybody.
Say what you want about the symphony's weakness as a whole, but that coda has to be the most epic choral symphonic conclusion of all time. I enjoyed discovering the Wit and Bertini. I was surprised to learn that David does not like the Horenstein live LSO performance. For my money, that performance of the coda is the most hair raising with it's bright percussion sounds and seering playing (I even love the out of tune flutes/winds at the end, kind of evokes squinting at a blinding glorious light).
But, the Bertini was a good listen though I find his slower tempo in the last half of the coda sort of anti climactic. The Wit was a surprise and I will be adding it to my collection. I still can't get the Horenstein out of my head (the coda specifically) but these are good alternatives to switch it up so thank you for the recommendations.
You are very welcome. I'm sorry you can't get Horenstein out of your head, but I understand where you are coming from. One of his great virtues was his willingness to let the percussion really rip. Sadly, it was very much the exception.
Hi Dave! I just happened to see a DG huge box with 100 cd (for the 111 years of DG)and there were mahler cd's: Bernstein 1st, dudemel 5th. So I am now discovering the 9th off mahler through Dudemel. I find it quite exciting. The strings expressive and the brass beautiful and powerful! And great percussion. What do you think about Dudemel mahler in general? Or do you have a favourite mahler recording from him?Thanks!!!
I think he's pretty boring, actually, and lacking in any special insight. Sorry.
@@DavesClassicalGuide please do not apologise. I don't care;) just want some experienced advice to guide me in my quest! Thanks Dave!
@@DavesClassicalGuide just switched to klemperer at the beginning of the 2nd movement... my God! That is groove! Thanks for your guidance!!!!
@@saltyfellow My pleasure.
My first exposure was with Solti Chicago recorded in Vienna. Then I discovered Berstein with the London Symphony on Sony, and what a revelation. The Veni Creator Spiritus has to be majestic. That is impossible at Solti's tempo. Bernstein is among the few that get it just right.
“The Trio of Three Annoying Women,” ROFL! I refer to this section as “the doldrums of Mahler,” (a.k.a. “the long-in-the-tooth horse latitudes,” depending on the soloists, of course) lol!
This is the hardest Mahler symphony to pull off in my opinion. I've heard very few versions that are satisfying. My number one is Bernstein's first version. There's a lovely live Stokwoski recording but the sound is kind of crappy and to tell you the truth Bernstein does it better. However, a real hidden gem is Maurice Abravanel with the Utah Symphony Orchestra. They're certainly not perfect but it holds together as a conception and they just play the blazes out of the piece. Nothing is held back.
What do you think of Thierry Fischer and the Utah Symphony?
Not.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Pity.
Have you heard Wit's Strauss "Alpine Symphony"? A real dark-horse contender, IMHO.
I find it rather dull, actually.
I just acquired Wit's 2005 recording (Naxos). It's generally a fine performance. I was disappointed that in the second movement, third bar of section 207 (page 247 of the Dover reprint of the 1976 Izdatel'stvo Muzyka Moskow edition), the second soprano solo sang wrong notes for "Zieht uns hin - an" -- these should be A-flat, B-flat, C, (high)B-flat; she sang B-flat, C, D, (high)B-flat.
It's a tragedy, for sure. Somehow, we'll get over it.
I'd call it "Mahler's 1812". Not bad per se, but entirely superfluous amid his other symphonies (of which there are a few too many, anyhow).
Leon Botstein is said to be more of a great musical mind rather than a conductor. The thought that anyone can screw up the beginning of the second part is just ludicrous to me. It is arguably the easiest section of the whole symphony.
An important scholar, for sure, and not a great conductor. He programs a great deal of unusual repertoire, though, that we wouldn't otherwise have a chance to hear.
Yep. And I definitely agree with you about the version by Antoni Wit. It’s pretty amazing. But I’m partial to the Solti version. It was the first time I ever heard the music of Mahler ever. Not to mention. Martti Talvela’s Bass solo in part two is unbeatable.
It's the easiest bit to conduct in terms of logistics for sure (so screwups of that kind really shouldn't happen); but the tempt relationships in the first ten minutes of part 2 are decidedly tricky.
Tom Gauterin Sure. But not tricky enough that you have to stop the performance, let alone, more than once.
@@charlescoleman5509 agreed - if you make a hash of a tempo relationship you keep going! Getting tempo relationships right is the the province of a strong, well directed performance in which the nuts and bolts are secure; and I'm not convinced that LB is the man to rely on for that.
The 8th is my LEAST favorite Mahler symphony. Overblown. Sprawling. It just doesn't hold my interest and never has. Recordings CANNOT do it proper justice. I have several recordings, and never listen to them. The only way I would ever entertain this work is at a live performance. THAT...would be a spectacle.
I'm with you here. I've never grown to enjoy the 8th, despite otherwise being a Mahler symphony enthusiast. I still occasionally attempt to hear new (to me) interpretations here at RUclips, but always throw in the towel within movement one.
I suggest that you may enjoy it more if you just skip Part 1.
If a new listener comes to the 8th expecting it to be like 2 or 3, he or she is going to be disappointed. Being a non-musician, I found the music dense and hard to follow, especially in the first movement. Only on repeated listening did it start to make sense to me.
I so agree. I have never made it past about five minutes of the work. And I don't mind long pieces. I love the Ring, after all.