@@DeathnoteBB it's about maximizing your impression. So only put your best stuff in it. It's better to have a lean portfolio that's only good works than to have a phat one with some mediocre works mixed in. Also you want your 2nd best work first, your 3rd best in the middle, and your best piece last.
To be fair if I'm drawing something really quickly to be done that day and I'm being told at like 2 in the morning that I need to make changes, I' also saying "Nah man"
I may not be a fan of liefeld as an artist or person but as a man obsessed with history I admire your dedication to preserving historical fact and not promoting myth, legend or narrative.
I think a large part of the reason the arm looks too short is actually that his shield is too high. Cap's shield is gripped in or near the center, yet your draw-through has his hand on the bottom edge. Lowering the shield would both reveal more of the arm, making the anatomy easier to understand, and better place it in Cap's hand.
I'm not sure the shield would be gripped in the middle. Most shields I'm familiar with are a two strap system. The arm goes thru a top strap and down to a hand strap at the bottom. I don't disagree with your overall point, but I'm not sure the center grip explaination is correct.
I am obviously playing catch up with a lot of your work but this is an excellent video. Sardonic, funny, fair-minded, and informative. Love your work. So glad I’ve found the channel
Rob Liefeld would be like the best artist in your high school. He never developed his knowledge past that level but it’s okay because his audience was young guys in high school. I never knew his anatomy was wrong at the time, I just liked the dynamism and that was aided by him not adhering strictly to anatomy
@@RansomeStoddard Liefield not being able to draw feet is such a weird myth about the guy, he's drew feet all the time if anything it's more impressive that manages to draw hands in such crazy poses because any artist will tell you drawing hands is far more difficult then fucking feet.
@@kaisarr7632 Myth? I have a bunch of his books and it’s no myth. His feet, when he chooses to include them in a picture, are diamonds or Tic-Tacs. His hands aren’t much better as his fists are the same size as the wrists. Let’s not even get started on his inconsistent light sources or how often he copied the work of other artists. Now maybe he had improved over the years, I don’t know. I never followed him over at Image.
Stone me, but Rob Liefield was one of the reasons why I started drawing, not because he was the best, but because he drew both badly and well at the same time, and I thought I could do that too, and to this day I can draw incredibly detailed inked pictures with terrible anatomy. :D
I always felt he drew badly but was really good at it 🤣 But I do love his art for what it is. Gods know I can't draw half as well... And as a teen in the early 90's and fairly new to comics, good or bad, there's a lot of happy memories in there. 😁
No. It's really easy to superimpose the drawing over photos of Schwarzenegger in that pose, and see that the proportions don't come anywhere near lining up.
May be because it’s not supposed ti be Arnold? You can’t compare Ronny Coleman and Arnold and hope their images to be the same. Dumbass ( respectfully )
If you're shitting out a promo piece and saying, "whatever, good enough," that's problematic. It's like mailing someone a dog turd to try to entice them to adopt a rescue Husky.
Amazing video!👍👏 I just began my comic book collection and found Toon Haven. They have an incredible range of digital comics for every genre, including the hard to find ones. Lifetime updates too!😁
There's a lot of things proportionally wrong with the drawing. Even with all the corrections to try and hide them the major flaw is it has Captain America facing both profile and 3/4 at the same time. His arm, shoulder and head are in profile while his torso is in 3/4.
This video also ignores the fact that Caps neck and head are placed ridiculously out of alignment with his waist. In the Arnold pic, even with him arching his back and twisting, his neck is still generally stacked over his waist. And it has to be pointed out, one of Arnold's legs is positioned behind him, to compensate for that arch, otherwise he would fall over backwards. Caps legs are clearly both straight up and down below his waist, he can't be arching his back to that extreme.
@bad71able yeah, the guy in the video missed the mark with that one, even with all the superficial corrections, theres a reason why it looks so uncanny. It looks like the chest was photoshopped in to an otherwise okay illustration.
The main issue people seem to have had with him was his personality at the time. No amount of advice or criticism seemed to reach him, even by his peers. His work was moving issues and it inflated his ego. By the time he did that button fly commercial people had begun to sour to him. It didn't help that the boom brought a lot of fans who'd just read "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way" which pointed out a lot of his artistic flaws. It really was kind of a perfect storm. His art got a bit lazy, but he was drawing an obscene amount of issues at once. A classic "don't spread yourself too thin" cautionary tale.
I don't know if that is true. There's a video where Todd McFarlane says "your anatomy is so bad" to his face and Rob Liefield just answerers with a humble"yeah, it's true".
@@JesusProtectsThat video doesn't really prove much, really. Besides, Todd also told him his haircut sucks in that same interview/documentary but Liefeld kept his style. 🤷♂️
Back in the late 80s I was geting into comics and immediately was a huge fan of Gruenwald's CAPTAIN AMERICA run, and his series DP7. He actually replied to letters sent in now and then, sent on offical Marvel post cards, and getting them in the mail unexpectedly blew my young mind. He loved his job and it showed. RIP and thanks again, Mark.
Wait... The fundamental problem with the image was always that the front of the chest was a 3/4 view whilst the rest of this torso was in profile. So bringing that up as a defense is a really odd thing to do.
No, the problem is people thought proportions are off. They aren't if he'd taken another hour to complete the image. Drop the shield and add the other arm. Jesus you missed the point of a well made video. Lmao
@@ottomattix86 I'm sorry but I don't agree. There is no way that a human's back can be perpendicular to the observer whilst their chest is rotated 45degrees towards you without them having been split in two. This video explains those two angles whilst saying that they aren't a problem. It's fun to be a contrarian and say "here's a thing that lots of people like, and here's why it's bad" or "here's a thing everyone seems to hate and here's why it's good" but if you are going to critique something based on technical elements. There is a right and wrong in this case. Perspective is a technical skill, anatomy is something that can be drawn accurately or inaccurately... I'm absolutely fine with people saying that they like this image, and seeing the inaccuracies as a stylistic choice. But to pretend that they are some kind of alternative version of accurate is delusional.
@@MultiMattRogers I don't think his back is perpendicular to the observer. Those lines are his triceps. That follows if you look at the reference. If anything, the criticism should be that it just doesn't read like 3/4 because the shield obstructs the waistline, which muddies the perspective.
It's even mentioned in the video. Bodybuilding pose that he's supposedly referencing is only physically possible by the subject wrapping their arms around their body as in the photo. That's what makes the muscles pop in that unusual way. So without that musculature on the back can't be tensed in that way. So without that you're left seeing both cap's back and front without any reasoning for it. Even with this explanation its bad anatomy. Given how much time rob spent drawing muscles you'd think he'd put some thought into how they work. But no. The leifeld universe every muscle is flexed all of the time.
8:03 this is a great demonstration of how composition and posing can massively affect whether a character looks "right" even if anatomy is technically correct.
I would argue that the writer of this video tries to map a three quarters posse on what is clearly a profile picture in order to excuse the proportions. It’s clearly cap from the side and that is why it’s look so odd. But odd isn’t bad. Odd can be creative and fun too. Liefeld was drawing an alternate dimension Cap so why not take liberties with it. Honestly Robb’s biggest issue(other then feet and lazy backgrounds) was that he was terrible at consistency so his Cap could look almost grotesque in one panel and then look more traditional in the next.
Even without Cap posing like a body builder you should at least see his left shoulder, but we don't, because he's not turning towards the viewer. It's right from the side.
The problem is the anatomy is correct for a different pose. Seeing the adjusted drawing with the wrist grip and removal of the shield does make anatomical sense. However, this was not the way Liefield illustrated the image. The muscles are exaggerated without the required body position to make them flex. For example, your biceps to not contract on a straight arm. But they do when it is bent like the adjusted image. You can contract your chest with arms at your side, however, the exaggerated chest on Captain America can only be achieved by squeezing the arms together through that wrist grip bodybuilder pose. So yes, there is a poor understanding of anatomy here by Liefield because he has lifted and shifted a body builder pose but changed the positioning of the arms so that the way the muscles contract are no longer accurate.
@XenusMinis yeah but like. What was the point, anyone watching the video already knew because they saw the video, and anyone scrolling wouldn't care. So like. Who was it for
7:12 Close, but no. To much back is showing and Cap is turned a full 90° in relation to the viewer, plus Cap's arms are at his sides. The chest can't present that way with out the tilt of the torso toward "The Camera.” And to top it all off, even if Cap had the barrelist barrel chest in history, his rib cage is way to large to be even consider abnormal.... Also, the star on Cap's chest is way off center.
Fantastic video, Josh. You did a tremendous job at chronicling the fascinating history of this image. I'm also glad you took the time to debunk the Gruenwald story in such a tasteful and sincere way. Well done!
Honestly, that cap image is not even one of Rob's worst or most questionable images. It's his most famous one for sure, but it's not liefield at his worst. Rob's problem art wise is usually perspective. He also tends to draw really pointy feet (or avoid drawing feet), though I think he gets a lot of extra flack for what everyone was doing in the 90s. The single shoulder pads, the endless straps, pouches, and muscles. The women who are wearing either skin tight clothing or battle bikini's in weird poses. The endless string of forgettable heroes that had #1s cause of the comic boom in the 90s. Though all these things happened at other points and with other artists. Jack Kirby didn't like drawing ears for instance and the 40s had just as many forgettable superheroes cause characters like Superman and Batman got super popular. The 40s also had just about every superhero being a copy of superman, Batman, or captain America art wise and that's not even going into the over-use of the damsel in distress. I'm not saying it's not completely undeserved, but I do agree to some extent that the backlash to his art is a bit overblown.
I am not a fan of Liefeld's work, but there's no denying his passion for the medium. I LIVES comics. And unlike other creators of his generation, he's STILL drawing internals (and not just covers) every year.
I had seen the image and read Gruenwald comics long before I found out that this comic was rumored to have killed him, and I always found that ridiculous. Sometimes I feel sorry that so many people credit Gruenwald for "being killed by Liefeld" and puting his ashes in his own comic, instead of crediting his fantastic writing.
If anything I think this drawing and what we now know about it actually reinforces how bad he is. He's already well know to use tracings and work from there. And he has admitted that this was done in a hurry late at night. So I figure that there's about a 100% chance he traced a bodybuilder in one pose then decided on using another. That combined with his lack of knowledge/care about how human anatomy actually works is why this looks so awkward. I'll bet it's also why he can't draw feet. It's for the same reason that older versions of Midjourney can't draw hands. It's because they are not commonly in the source image.
I think the main problem with Liefleld art is the digital coloring. I love his early New Mutants art. I think it's just the modern coloring that breaks it. Don't understand why Liefeld sticks to that though.
I think Digital Coloring played a huge role in Liefeld's eventual lambasting online. I'm not a fan of Youngblood but the first couple of issues have way better art and are easier to read due to their flatter and brighter color schemes which given that Liefeld was self taught and digital coloring was a brand new thing at the time, he probably didn't realize just how much of his work was going to be altered during the digital more stylized coloring technique that came into popularity. I think digital coloring hurt a lot of artists during the 90s. Since large muscular bodies were in fashion, suddenly hitting them with the darker digital coloring style made them look all the stranger and probably contributed to their eventual decline.
I've never heard the Gruenwald claim before. And while I haven't read Howe's book, that excerpt sounds like an example of a weakness rather than a strength, at least if the book was meant to convey facts rather than create fiction.
@@ooneybird27 It was Stan Lee's job to sell Marvel. Howe's book is presented as chronicling the true stories, which would make it Howe's job to be honest.
7:46 his neck and head are far to back. The problem is that Rob made cap look like the Hulk by making his head too small and his body too big. I'm an artist myself and I would say that's the best cap pose. Rob artwork dealt less with shadow shadowing and more with color shading and light shinning. Whereas most artist were stuck in the i'm going add so many shadows which prevented the colorist from adding color shades and light shades images comics hired computer graphics artists to color the pages making it look 3D. Rob knew all about this. Marvel was stuck in the past with the shading of shadows. Comic book art has always been about story telling and never about anatomy drawings. The 90's comic book artist got stuck in the anatomy part in which most failed in there comic book career. Comic books drawing is about showing action not about doing poses or making the most realistic look muscular bodybuilder.
I hate when people refer to the Side Chest bodybuilding pose and say "see! it's anatomically correct!!" no it's not, the Cap on the picture is not hitting that pose, and even if it was, it would be wrong. He's not tilting, his ribcage is waaaay too big, his waist isnt facing the right way and most importantly HE'S NOT HITTING A SIDE CHEST.
I probably saw this for the first time in Wizard magazine. That shot of Arnie really makes the difference in comparison. If only Cap had an arm flexed....
Just imagine what all the commenters would say about Egyptian art. Talk about not anatomically correct, and yet did exactly what the art was supposed to do.
I hadn't heard about people blaming him, or at the very least insinuating that he was the reason for Mark's death. That is legit disgusting, if that happened to me, I would be disappointed, sad, disgusted, and very, very angry. What's even worse is I wonder if Rob ever started questioning if he was really responsible for the heart attack. Obviously, he wasn't, but when you have a whole host of people saying awful things about you, you can't help but wonder if you're deluding yourself.
Is this a recent claim because I never heard it was in a publicized comic? Most of the time when Liefeld is brought up it's pointing out most of his body of work with this being pointed out in only a few instances as part of things he has drawn, which the time I saw it brought up was in reference to it appearing in a magazine which I might also have to say is part of a publicized work. Most of the time when his work is brought up it is the jankiness of his lines, his poor ideals of anatomy , his odd choice of angles, incoherent meshing, and his often baffling action poses. So I dunno this has to be a new thing since I haven't really cared about the whole Liefeld thing in a very long time.
it's the angle of Cap's right shoulder that makes his right hand looks flat across while his chest are more lining to the right a bit just like the Arnold's photo reference
This context of this argument is what’s completely out of whack. It’s the muscles that are inaccurate in the chest and the only reason the arm could be that short is because the torso is so short. A short torso is common in stylization in comics but if it’s not paired with elongated appendages the figure just looks stubby. And muscles are something Liefeld has never understood. Sometimes imaging hundreds of non existent muscles, misplace ent or over inflated. Jim Lee’s Batman shows a protruding chest through an arced spine while Liefeld’s is through bloated muscles. Which also don’t align with the reference of Arnold.
The one thing you don’t bring up is at this point in Liefeld’s career he had a studio of freelancers working for him that he allegedly took credit for their work. It’s possible he didn’t even draw that picture and was just like “it’s fine Jim” because he didn’t want to redraw it himself or get the freelancer back in to fix it. As a comic collector in that time I remember his style and loved it as a kid. As an adult I realize it’s shortcomings but people forget that he wasn’t the only one drawing in that style. Personally while the 90s are not my favorite comic era as far as art goes I prefer those comics to the early 2000s push back, especially post X-Men movie where costumes became boring and attempts were made to make them more “realistic”. Plus early computer drawn images and coloring was definitely an art form that needed to evolve.
The real freelancer story is that during the early years of image, when the founders had essentially free reign over everything they produced Rob started creating an absurd amount of books(Youngblood,Prophet,Supreme,Brigade and Bloodstrike), he didn't want to leave or cancel any of the books he started picking some writers and artists that were part of a Image project that tried to get more writers/editors/inkers and letterers, Rob would send them the plot so they would do the script and gesture drawings so they would complete(which having seen his gesture drawings was pretty much everything) if they accepted he helped them publish their books and would put a preview of their books on his, never heard any problem about proper crediting, and it seems that he stopped doing it after not long after since even with this whole pricedure it still was a shit load of work so many books were ended, he put new teams altogether on some or they went on a hiatus.
The problem with that theory of freelance doing the artwork is drawing style is like a finger print. That is clearly his drawing style, and I mean it's all messed up looking in proportions.
I knew all this already - BUT you put it together BEAUTIFULLY! (actually you beat me to it, I wanted to do a video myself, but now Ill just lead everyone to this video!)
As an artist, I can tell you that there are two perspective grids on that artwork. The chest is conforming to one grid. The rest of the body (deltoids, arms, spine, etc) are conforming to another grid. The whole image is supposed to abide by one grid consistently. Also, That's a straight up 2 point persp. Not a 3 point, which would be necessary to depict a figure from a lower POV. The arm still needs to be somewhat longer in relation to the chest. The neck and head aren't in correct proportion or size compared to the rest of the body (even for a bulked up physique). The trapezius muscles would need to be bigger. The head and neck would be bigger irrespective. It's like a more average (bigger)head got pasted onto the hulk. All these issues are not present in the HUSH Batman example. That's very consistently drawn with good angle breakages on the silhouette as needed for a more average physique. So it's still not a good drawing.
No matter what people say about rob, his drawings, or his business practices, Rob loves comics and when he talks about his favorites like x-men its infectious
Wow man, EXCELLENT video. I can't believe your channel is this small and I'm very, very happy with RUclips's recommendations right now for bringing me here. Subbed and about to go on a really fun dive into your content!
The left pec should not be poking out that far, because he's practically in profile. If the left shoulder or arm were visible, it would be a 3/4 view - but it isnt. It's a botched profile. Comparing it to that incredible Jim Lee piece is basically offensive.
As a big Mark Gruenwald fan who isn't fond of Rob's work, I've always found the whole Rob killed Mark thing weird, like I've never understood it, wondered if it was just a bad taste joke and it just always made me uncomfortable.
2:10 - RUclipsr claims that art was never published. Comic book just disappeared from the timeline. I owned a book where that image was published back then (I gave it away a few years ago). It was published.
I think why its wrong is that sometimes when you use a reference but edit for a different pose, you have to adjust other body parts too. If Rob did use that Arnold/side bicep bodybuilding pose. He didn't adjust for the arms squeezing in the chest to push it out and give the body that slight turn. If you remove the arms, the body would straighten out more and the chest would get (look) smaller.
I think I say it ever time, but this is one of the absolute best channels. Please keep doing what you do. Let’s get rid of misinformation. And you are NOT pedantic.
I'm sorry, but saying that's anatomically correct, because if you draw Cap's arms in a certain way, then it's correct, is just nonsense. He's not doing a bodybuilder pose, he's standing there with his shield. And hell, that's not even true. Cap's left pectoral isn't even flexing, nor does it look like it's going to join up with his neck.
Please don't compare Liefeld to Lee. Rob never took any art classes in anatomy. Jim has his knowledge in anatomy because he was originally studying to become a doctor at Harvard.
Thank you for making this. When I first got into comics I was on board with the Liefeld hate train but the more I studied the medium and the more I got into comics, the more I began to appreciate Liefeld's work. Then I looked into the infamous Captain America drawing, now I'm not a bodybuilder by any means but I am a pro wrestler who does bodybuilding exercises since I have a passing interest in the sport, I also have a prop Captain America shield(he's my favorite) and despite me being under 200 lbs, I can actually recreate the Captain America pose to prove that it's just a trick of the eye. My chest is nowhere near as big as Arnold Schwarzenegger's but if I can recreate that pose, then anyone with any muscle mass on their pectorals can do it. Bodybuilders look weird. They look inhuman so of course if you reference them since they do dynamic posing routines, they're going to look strange when put to pen and paper. I also dislike how Liefeld's been absolutely berated by comic fans for his hyper muscular art style. If you follow the man's current line of work then you'll see that like all artists must do, he's evolved with the times. He no longer does the hyper muscular mass monster type bodies unless it has a point or in the character's design(see Hulk or Juggernaut). But what I actually appreciate about his work is that despite evolving with the times he still managed to maintain a recognizable style that's distinctively Liefeld. It really proves just how talented he truly is because in the 90s everybody tried drawing like him or imitating his style but to this day, nobody actually draws like he does. I get that he's polarizing nowadays, but I get excited when I hear that he's working on a book because I know what I'll get. Something visually interesting, honest, and has an emphasis on action, heroics, and cool characters. That's all I want in comics.
I didn't quite realize it was never published in a Cap comic, but it's definitely primarily just ridiculous because Cap isn't supposed to be shaped like that, and he composed and posed it in a bit of an awkward way.
Absolutely fascinating piece, thanks for putting this together! I love getting multiple perspectives on issues and this was a really wonderful presentation of a perspective I don't think I'd ever encountered. This is also especially interesting to me as someone who was collecting Marvel comics when Liefeld joined them, and I still have in my basement many of his earliest Marvel works, including X-Factor #40 and the first appearances of Cable and Deadpool in the New Mutants. I really ought to get some of them appraised one of these days...
You're missing the problem with it. Disclaimer: I do understand it was a quick promo piece and ultimately, its fine for that. On the Arnie photo, I can tell that his opposite shoulder is in the correct place, well in front of the facing shoulder. On the Cap drawing, it looks like his opposite shoulder is directly behind the one we see. Thats why it looks wrong. :)
This feels like you’ve genuinely made an effort to go against the grain purely for views. Cap isn’t in a flexing position, his arm could be 6 inches smaller or longer with a super soldier serum, it’s not even 3/4 perspective: Tog could be talking about a cup of coffee here, and it would still be latent what lengths you’ll go to for a view. Thanks for the stories, it’s a no from me.
That reference you made to fans wondering if the Moon Knight meme would be in the show made me think of the “I’m the Juggernaut, bitch!” line from the RUclips video(s) that actually got used in X3 lol
I already debunked that tumblr post when it popped up, but I am glad to do it again here. First, the chest is not the only problem, there are a ton of flaws with that art. People just fixate on the chest which is indeed drawn wrong. No amount of Rob Stans will ever be able to change that. But second, and this is a big one, Arnie's left shoulder is pushed forward allowing the chest to flex and roll forward as well. So, where does that leave lifeild's art? Well, if the torso is indeed turned, then he still has baby arms, his shoulder cap is missing and his neck is growing out of his trap. If he's in side view as the neck and front shoulder position would suggest, then he still has a massive chest issue and baby arms among other anatomical issues. So no, not technically correct at all.
And in case anyone wants to whine about the baby arms comment, the tumblr artist's own art shrinks the forearm to fit behind the shield while lengthening it in the bent position. On top of that, the arm doesn't go all the way through the shield and never has, so while he may have managed to fit one back there, its still wrong. I know we like to stick up for our favorite artists but they do bad art some times. They are human despite what they meant to our childhoods. The simple fact is, this is a stinker no matter how many mental gymnastics we do to try to make the art work. It will be ok though. There's plenty of stuff from Rob to enjoy in his 40+ years of drawing comics. You'll be fine.
It's still not even technically, anatomically correct. The fact that you COULD fit an arm behind the shield at ALL doesn't mean that's how that shield would sit ON the arm (which is how we would estimate WHERE the arm is behind the shield). And a lot of your argument works better for photography than it does illustration. There's no incidental composition in illustration; it's not like Cap's body just HAPPENED to be obscured by the shield. You're essentially defending his ability to draw a body by implicitly shitting on his ability to compose an image in general.
Liefields cap was my Cap, when I think of Cap it’s Robs interpretation of the sentinel of liberty, but you’re talking to a guy that thinks the Chris Bangle but BMW 7 series is one of the most beautiful BMWs ever made (for those car guys out there) LOL
By removing the interlocked arms, the anatomy is not correct anymore, because that's how the bodybuilders twist and bulge their pecs into that position. That however, is not that relevant, because illustration is not about correct anatomy, unless you're drawing for an anatomy atlas. There is no anatomically correct superhero illustration and who cares? Expression and composition are king. People want to see stuff that looks good, nitpicking comes later if ever. And that's where Liefeld's pic fails. But hey, which artist doesn't have a crappy, disowned piece of work?
Really interesting video. An architecture professor taught us the technically correct way of doing perspective drawings -- then warned us that even something drawn the right way can look wrong to the eye.
Every defense you’re making about this awful drawing is just pointing out that it’s not good. There are actually many many Liefeld drawings that are the same. His proportions are terrible, the poses are terrible and don’t get me started about their faces. The worst part of his art to me is I was copying his style as a kid for a while before I knew enough about art to realize I was learning some really bad art skills.
Brother, you are truly doing the Lord's work. That re-worked image @ 8:04 REALLY contextualizes Liefeld's image, which I usually thought of as merely lazy, not actually bad art per-se...
It is lazy since, well, he referenced an entirely different pose, flex and perspective to go off of. I wouldn't use a picture of someone jumping to draw someone crawling. This is the lazy mistake he made above all else, before he even started drawing.
Nice stuff. I myself remember the Sean Howe book mentioning Mark buying the comic, and to me it was less "this killed Mark!" than "this is a symbol of just how shitty it had gotten for Mark". I think the meme got out of control largely thanks to Linkara's "Rob Liefeld wrote a comic so bad it MAY HAVE KILLED A MAN!" statement, which took that snippet and ran with it.
I’ve seen this image all over the Internet, but I never realized there was so much to it. I’d never heard the story about the heart attack, which even if I had, I’d probably assume it was internet commenters fabricating rumors (as they do best). Fascinating video for sure. I’ll be slightly less critical of this image going forward, although Liefeld characters with triangular feet and dozens upon dozens of teeth are still fair game.
I really like your points and the artist rendering of the anatomy in the draw-over. The Liefeld video on this channel from a while back challenged my perspective and made me appreciate Liefeld. But I want to challenge the idea it would be accurate anatomically if the arm wrapped around. The neck placement would still be way off sitting on his right deltoid. And the shoulder muscles are drawn at a side view while the chest is drawn at a 3/4 angle I think? And I feel like the combination of these factors still make it gross. Like you said, vertically it makes sense. And the thickness is fine. Just the placement is really bad. But that doesn't inherently make Liefeld a bad artist. idk
Yeah, the anatomy is still off. The chest and abs look like they're at a 3/4 view but like you said, the head placement is off and the shoulder looks side on. So it's like part of the figure is in 3/4 view and the other part is side on. It doesn't gel together. Still a great video though.
@@user-nv9vn8fm1d I agree with you. This is probably the prime example of showing the pitfalls of using photo reference but then trying to customise the pose without having fundamental knowledge of anatomy to know how a seemingly small change can actually throw everything out of whack. As you said, the neck adjustment would have corrected for it to a reasonable degree. To be fair to Rob, the original bodybuilding pose is extraordinary in how it seemingly distorts the body, but that's no doubt why it was a famous pose to begin with to get that superhuman pec bulge
People give Rob Leifeild shit All The time.. they'll go miles out there way to find his weakest work and shove it in your face.. to the hater's i say constantly go look at his work on Hawk&Dove the 1988 mini series. Then it's easy to see how he made his mark. That run Made me fall in love with comics and never gets the credit it deserves and to this day is some of my favorite comic book art.
Cue up to the 7:45 mark. Three points of comparison between the Arnold Schwarzenegger photo and Captain America illustration-- One, observe how much of Arnold's upper back can be seen in the photo -- none at all, except for a tiny bit of his right trapezius. On Cap, we either see enough of his upper back that the perspective for that area is angled slightly around behind Cap's torso, or his right deltoid and right triceps are ridiculously wide -- I can't even tell which one Liefeld was attempting. The drawn-in example at 7:27 shows the latter, and the result is that Cap's biceps/triceps are collectively so wide that you could almost fit two of Cap's heads into that space. For a tiny-headed rendition of the Hulk, this might work but not for Captain America. Two, observe that the top portion of Arnold's left upper pectoral is about the same height as the top of his right upper pec. On Cap, the top portion of the left upper pec is considerably lower. Looks like he's missing a large amount of muscle mass. Three, observe that there are dome-like protuberances between Cap's lower pecs (where the sternum/xiphoid process should be) and below the center of his right lower pec. In the Arnold photo, no such structures appear -- because normal human anatomy does not contain such structures. Also, though the Arnold photo does not include a star on his chest, observe that the star on Cap's chest is rendered as though Cap's right and left pecs form a single curved surface with virtually no depression ("crease") between them. In the Arnold photo there is clearly a deep depression between his pecs. Bonus gripe -- the right wing on Cap's headgear appears to be perfectly perpendicular to the viewer, even though Cap's head is turned at a 45-degree angle to the viewer, and the left wing is angled upward about 45 degrees, though the top of the right wing appears to be on a horizontal plane.
Whenever I get a fresh batch of RUclips videos to watch I always leave yours 'til last, Josh - 'cause no matter how much I enjoy the others, I always know there is something better yet to come; you never disappoint, and I always finish my viewing on a high. This one is no exception. Whilst I'm not a fan of Liefeld's art (I'm more in the Perez, Buscema, Byrne camp), you've certainly opened my mind to an appreciation of its merits for others. I've known a few artists in my lifetime - writers, painters, musicians, a poet, and a sculptor - and they've all been their worst critics; I've yet to meet one that ever really wants to stop "fiddling" with their work, and I'm sure Liefeld is no exception. This particular piece, were it meant for general consumption, would no doubt have been altered considerably before being published... The hatred for it just goes to show there was still a bandwagon to jump on before the advent of the internet's social media! As always, an excellent, top-notch video Josh. And again, as always in my usual shallow way, I compliment you on being one helluva handsome Dude! Stay safe always, Fella - You and yours. :)
Great work because the truth should matter. It's what we should be building our history upon. I wouldn't get too upset about what some juvenile comic geeks might be spewing out. It's usually just a phase, mature reflection takes time.
What! People didn't like your Rob Liefeld/Cobain video? I thought it was genius! It gave me an appreciation of the raw emotion of the Image crew and the fascinating vulnerability of a lot of Liefeld's work. Hell, it made me appreciate comic art more in general. Don't let the haters get you down, PtP!
really shouldn't have made the bit about anatomical inaccuracy being false lol. the reference photo itself proves it. blaming colorist becoz of his fuck up is ridiculous too
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When putting together my portfolio, my art teacher told me, "you will be judged by your worst piece."
Sure.
Whatever.
Thats a glass half empty way to put it
@@DeathnoteBB it's about maximizing your impression. So only put your best stuff in it. It's better to have a lean portfolio that's only good works than to have a phat one with some mediocre works mixed in. Also you want your 2nd best work first, your 3rd best in the middle, and your best piece last.
@@philv2529 What I was told was you want a portfolio with your best stuff up front
The fact Jim Lee pointed out what's wrong with it and he refused makes it way more hilarious. Appreciate the unexpected topic.
That is what it means to create context ---
To be fair if I'm drawing something really quickly to be done that day and I'm being told at like 2 in the morning that I need to make changes, I' also saying "Nah man"
This guy ranks Liefeld as a better artist than Lee in another video. LOL.
@@NoticeDesignyikes
@@NoticeDesigndepending on how you look at it . Liefeld's art was aometimes weird but the way he put things on a page was ahead of his time.
I may not be a fan of liefeld as an artist or person but as a man obsessed with history I admire your dedication to preserving historical fact and not promoting myth, legend or narrative.
I think a large part of the reason the arm looks too short is actually that his shield is too high. Cap's shield is gripped in or near the center, yet your draw-through has his hand on the bottom edge.
Lowering the shield would both reveal more of the arm, making the anatomy easier to understand, and better place it in Cap's hand.
I'm not sure the shield would be gripped in the middle. Most shields I'm familiar with are a two strap system. The arm goes thru a top strap and down to a hand strap at the bottom. I don't disagree with your overall point, but I'm not sure the center grip explaination is correct.
I am obviously playing catch up with a lot of your work but this is an excellent video. Sardonic, funny, fair-minded, and informative. Love your work. So glad I’ve found the channel
Rob Liefeld would be like the best artist in your high school. He never developed his knowledge past that level but it’s okay because his audience was young guys in high school. I never knew his anatomy was wrong at the time, I just liked the dynamism and that was aided by him not adhering strictly to anatomy
No, he would have been the 9th best artist in my middle school. The 8th best artist could draw feet.
@@RansomeStoddard Liefield not being able to draw feet is such a weird myth about the guy, he's drew feet all the time if anything it's more impressive that manages to draw hands in such crazy poses because any artist will tell you drawing hands is far more difficult then fucking feet.
@@kaisarr7632 Myth? I have a bunch of his books and it’s no myth. His feet, when he chooses to include them in a picture, are diamonds or Tic-Tacs. His hands aren’t much better as his fists are the same size as the wrists. Let’s not even get started on his inconsistent light sources or how often he copied the work of other artists. Now maybe he had improved over the years, I don’t know. I never followed him over at Image.
Exactly - years back I called him the Ramones of comics
Spot on.i was in top 10.maybe #6
Stone me, but Rob Liefield was one of the reasons why I started drawing, not because he was the best, but because he drew both badly and well at the same time, and I thought I could do that too, and to this day I can draw incredibly detailed inked pictures with terrible anatomy. :D
I always felt he drew badly but was really good at it 🤣
But I do love his art for what it is. Gods know I can't draw half as well...
And as a teen in the early 90's and fairly new to comics, good or bad, there's a lot of happy memories in there. 😁
Wow that's honestly the best way you could put his work. Speaking as someone who doesn't really like him I agree
What I like about his work is that it’s instantly recognizable
I did the same, his early sharp edges taught me a lot.
😂😂😂😂
If it was going for that bodybuilding pose, it doesn't work because the far arm is required to be in front of the torso for those pectorals to flex.
Yeah it still isn't anatomically correct, it looks like the arnie pic but the angles are off and the arms are in the wrong places
100% agree.
No. It's really easy to superimpose the drawing over photos of Schwarzenegger in that pose, and see that the proportions don't come anywhere near lining up.
May be because it’s not supposed ti be Arnold? You can’t compare Ronny Coleman and Arnold and hope their images to be the same. Dumbass ( respectfully )
If you're shitting out a promo piece and saying, "whatever, good enough," that's problematic. It's like mailing someone a dog turd to try to entice them to adopt a rescue Husky.
Amazing video!👍👏 I just began my comic book collection and found Toon Haven. They have an incredible range of digital comics for every genre, including the hard to find ones. Lifetime updates too!😁
“Ridiculous, petty, and cruel” Is the working title for the INTERNET!
There's a lot of things proportionally wrong with the drawing. Even with all the corrections to try and hide them the major flaw is it has Captain America facing both profile and 3/4 at the same time. His arm, shoulder and head are in profile while his torso is in 3/4.
He wanted to show off caps fat pecs
Unintentional cubism
This video also ignores the fact that Caps neck and head are placed ridiculously out of alignment with his waist. In the Arnold pic, even with him arching his back and twisting, his neck is still generally stacked over his waist. And it has to be pointed out, one of Arnold's legs is positioned behind him, to compensate for that arch, otherwise he would fall over backwards. Caps legs are clearly both straight up and down below his waist, he can't be arching his back to that extreme.
@bad71able yeah, the guy in the video missed the mark with that one, even with all the superficial corrections, theres a reason why it looks so uncanny. It looks like the chest was photoshopped in to an otherwise okay illustration.
The main issue people seem to have had with him was his personality at the time. No amount of advice or criticism seemed to reach him, even by his peers. His work was moving issues and it inflated his ego. By the time he did that button fly commercial people had begun to sour to him. It didn't help that the boom brought a lot of fans who'd just read "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way" which pointed out a lot of his artistic flaws.
It really was kind of a perfect storm. His art got a bit lazy, but he was drawing an obscene amount of issues at once. A classic "don't spread yourself too thin" cautionary tale.
I don't know if that is true. There's a video where Todd McFarlane says "your anatomy is so bad" to his face and Rob Liefield just answerers with a humble"yeah, it's true".
@@JesusProtectsThat video doesn't really prove much, really. Besides, Todd also told him his haircut sucks in that same interview/documentary but Liefeld kept his style. 🤷♂️
@@manuelpatino7863 Maybe he didn't agree to everything Todd said? Mind blown.
@@jprice_ Ahh, another boomer with the self-narrating inserts at the end of his sentence. *Mind not blown*
Back in the late 80s I was geting into comics and immediately was a huge fan of Gruenwald's CAPTAIN AMERICA run, and his series DP7.
He actually replied to letters sent in now and then, sent on offical Marvel post cards, and getting them in the mail unexpectedly blew my young mind.
He loved his job and it showed.
RIP and thanks again, Mark.
I wish more modern comics writers loved their jobs and weren't just shilling out garbage.
Wait... The fundamental problem with the image was always that the front of the chest was a 3/4 view whilst the rest of this torso was in profile.
So bringing that up as a defense is a really odd thing to do.
Exactly! His body is warped altogether. Lol
No, the problem is people thought proportions are off. They aren't if he'd taken another hour to complete the image. Drop the shield and add the other arm. Jesus you missed the point of a well made video. Lmao
@@ottomattix86 I'm sorry but I don't agree.
There is no way that a human's back can be perpendicular to the observer whilst their chest is rotated 45degrees towards you without them having been split in two.
This video explains those two angles whilst saying that they aren't a problem.
It's fun to be a contrarian and say "here's a thing that lots of people like, and here's why it's bad" or "here's a thing everyone seems to hate and here's why it's good" but if you are going to critique something based on technical elements. There is a right and wrong in this case.
Perspective is a technical skill, anatomy is something that can be drawn accurately or inaccurately... I'm absolutely fine with people saying that they like this image, and seeing the inaccuracies as a stylistic choice. But to pretend that they are some kind of alternative version of accurate is delusional.
@@MultiMattRogers I don't think his back is perpendicular to the observer. Those lines are his triceps. That follows if you look at the reference. If anything, the criticism should be that it just doesn't read like 3/4 because the shield obstructs the waistline, which muddies the perspective.
It's even mentioned in the video. Bodybuilding pose that he's supposedly referencing is only physically possible by the subject wrapping their arms around their body as in the photo. That's what makes the muscles pop in that unusual way. So without that musculature on the back can't be tensed in that way. So without that you're left seeing both cap's back and front without any reasoning for it.
Even with this explanation its bad anatomy. Given how much time rob spent drawing muscles you'd think he'd put some thought into how they work. But no. The leifeld universe every muscle is flexed all of the time.
8:03 this is a great demonstration of how composition and posing can massively affect whether a character looks "right" even if anatomy is technically correct.
I would argue that the writer of this video tries to map a three quarters posse on what is clearly a profile picture in order to excuse the proportions. It’s clearly cap from the side and that is why it’s look so odd.
But odd isn’t bad. Odd can be creative and fun too. Liefeld was drawing an alternate dimension Cap so why not take liberties with it. Honestly Robb’s biggest issue(other then feet and lazy backgrounds) was that he was terrible at consistency so his Cap could look almost grotesque in one panel and then look more traditional in the next.
Even without Cap posing like a body builder you should at least see his left shoulder, but we don't, because he's not turning towards the viewer. It's right from the side.
If he's sideways the chest juts out absurdly and with a tilt. If he's at an angle, his right shoulder should be farther left. This drawing is a mess.
The problem is the anatomy is correct for a different pose. Seeing the adjusted drawing with the wrist grip and removal of the shield does make anatomical sense. However, this was not the way Liefield illustrated the image. The muscles are exaggerated without the required body position to make them flex. For example, your biceps to not contract on a straight arm. But they do when it is bent like the adjusted image. You can contract your chest with arms at your side, however, the exaggerated chest on Captain America can only be achieved by squeezing the arms together through that wrist grip bodybuilder pose. So yes, there is a poor understanding of anatomy here by Liefield because he has lifted and shifted a body builder pose but changed the positioning of the arms so that the way the muscles contract are no longer accurate.
Why are you regurgitating what he already said in the video
@@decayuchiha8508 for the same reason you’re leaving this absolutely pointless comment. Because I can.
@XenusMinis yeah but like. What was the point, anyone watching the video already knew because they saw the video, and anyone scrolling wouldn't care. So like. Who was it for
7:12 Close, but no. To much back is showing and Cap is turned a full 90° in relation to the viewer, plus Cap's arms are at his sides. The chest can't present that way with out the tilt of the torso toward "The Camera.” And to top it all off, even if Cap had the barrelist barrel chest in history, his rib cage is way to large to be even consider abnormal.... Also, the star on Cap's chest is way off center.
Fantastic video, Josh. You did a tremendous job at chronicling the fascinating history of this image. I'm also glad you took the time to debunk the Gruenwald story in such a tasteful and sincere way. Well done!
Honestly, that cap image is not even one of Rob's worst or most questionable images. It's his most famous one for sure, but it's not liefield at his worst. Rob's problem art wise is usually perspective. He also tends to draw really pointy feet (or avoid drawing feet), though I think he gets a lot of extra flack for what everyone was doing in the 90s. The single shoulder pads, the endless straps, pouches, and muscles. The women who are wearing either skin tight clothing or battle bikini's in weird poses. The endless string of forgettable heroes that had #1s cause of the comic boom in the 90s. Though all these things happened at other points and with other artists. Jack Kirby didn't like drawing ears for instance and the 40s had just as many forgettable superheroes cause characters like Superman and Batman got super popular. The 40s also had just about every superhero being a copy of superman, Batman, or captain America art wise and that's not even going into the over-use of the damsel in distress. I'm not saying it's not completely undeserved, but I do agree to some extent that the backlash to his art is a bit overblown.
His Enchanteress (again from "Heroes Reborn") was quite something, too. 🤣
5:45 YOURE JOKING, THERES NO SHOT THAT PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT WOULD HAPPEN
Great work on this video. Was waiting for it to drop and it didn't disappoint. I appreciate your insight and perspective. Keep up the great work!
I do support your message of not being disrespectful to artists and other creators. It's sad and unbecoming behavior for anyone.
Thank you for that!
Love this mythbusting format Josh - great stuff!
I am not a fan of Liefeld's work, but there's no denying his passion for the medium. I LIVES comics. And unlike other creators of his generation, he's STILL drawing internals (and not just covers) every year.
I had seen the image and read Gruenwald comics long before I found out that this comic was rumored to have killed him, and I always found that ridiculous. Sometimes I feel sorry that so many people credit Gruenwald for "being killed by Liefeld" and puting his ashes in his own comic, instead of crediting his fantastic writing.
Discovered your channel via this video and, for what it’s worth, I’m hugely impressed. Funny, empathetic and informative. Kudos to you sir.
If your case for his anatomy not sucking is redrawing the image with a dramatically different pose, I think his anatomy still sucks.
If anything I think this drawing and what we now know about it actually reinforces how bad he is. He's already well know to use tracings and work from there. And he has admitted that this was done in a hurry late at night. So I figure that there's about a 100% chance he traced a bodybuilder in one pose then decided on using another. That combined with his lack of knowledge/care about how human anatomy actually works is why this looks so awkward.
I'll bet it's also why he can't draw feet. It's for the same reason that older versions of Midjourney can't draw hands. It's because they are not commonly in the source image.
That was not his case tho.
I think the main problem with Liefleld art is the digital coloring. I love his early New Mutants art. I think it's just the modern coloring that breaks it. Don't understand why Liefeld sticks to that though.
I think Digital Coloring played a huge role in Liefeld's eventual lambasting online. I'm not a fan of Youngblood but the first couple of issues have way better art and are easier to read due to their flatter and brighter color schemes which given that Liefeld was self taught and digital coloring was a brand new thing at the time, he probably didn't realize just how much of his work was going to be altered during the digital more stylized coloring technique that came into popularity.
I think digital coloring hurt a lot of artists during the 90s. Since large muscular bodies were in fashion, suddenly hitting them with the darker digital coloring style made them look all the stranger and probably contributed to their eventual decline.
Jim Lee's art looked way better with flat coloring than digital.
The heart attack line started as a dark joke with nothing to do with reality. But over the years haters repurposed it.
Cap's face also looks pretty strange.
Amazing how "urban legends" get started and maintain steam.✌🏽
I've never heard the Gruenwald claim before. And while I haven't read Howe's book, that excerpt sounds like an example of a weakness rather than a strength, at least if the book was meant to convey facts rather than create fiction.
@@ooneybird27 It was Stan Lee's job to sell Marvel. Howe's book is presented as chronicling the true stories, which would make it Howe's job to be honest.
7:46 his neck and head are far to back. The problem is that Rob made cap look like the Hulk by making his head too small and his body too big. I'm an artist myself and I would say that's the best cap pose. Rob artwork dealt less with shadow shadowing and more with color shading and light shinning. Whereas most artist were stuck in the i'm going add so many shadows which prevented the colorist from adding color shades and light shades images comics hired computer graphics artists to color the pages making it look 3D. Rob knew all about this. Marvel was stuck in the past with the shading of shadows.
Comic book art has always been about story telling and never about anatomy drawings. The 90's comic book artist got stuck in the anatomy part in which most failed in there comic book career. Comic books drawing is about showing action not about doing poses or making the most realistic look muscular bodybuilder.
I hate when people refer to the Side Chest bodybuilding pose and say "see! it's anatomically correct!!" no it's not, the Cap on the picture is not hitting that pose, and even if it was, it would be wrong. He's not tilting, his ribcage is waaaay too big, his waist isnt facing the right way and most importantly HE'S NOT HITTING A SIDE CHEST.
I probably saw this for the first time in Wizard magazine. That shot of Arnie really makes the difference in comparison. If only Cap had an arm flexed....
Just imagine what all the commenters would say about Egyptian art. Talk about not anatomically correct, and yet did exactly what the art was supposed to do.
I hadn't heard about people blaming him, or at the very least insinuating that he was the reason for Mark's death. That is legit disgusting, if that happened to me, I would be disappointed, sad, disgusted, and very, very angry. What's even worse is I wonder if Rob ever started questioning if he was really responsible for the heart attack. Obviously, he wasn't, but when you have a whole host of people saying awful things about you, you can't help but wonder if you're deluding yourself.
A promotional sketch is expected to be better than actual comic art. They generally are.
Is this a recent claim because I never heard it was in a publicized comic? Most of the time when Liefeld is brought up it's pointing out most of his body of work with this being pointed out in only a few instances as part of things he has drawn, which the time I saw it brought up was in reference to it appearing in a magazine which I might also have to say is part of a publicized work. Most of the time when his work is brought up it is the jankiness of his lines, his poor ideals of anatomy , his odd choice of angles, incoherent meshing, and his often baffling action poses.
So I dunno this has to be a new thing since I haven't really cared about the whole Liefeld thing in a very long time.
it's the angle of Cap's right shoulder that makes his right hand looks flat across while his chest are more lining to the right a bit just like the Arnold's photo reference
This context of this argument is what’s completely out of whack. It’s the muscles that are inaccurate in the chest and the only reason the arm could be that short is because the torso is so short. A short torso is common in stylization in comics but if it’s not paired with elongated appendages the figure just looks stubby. And muscles are something Liefeld has never understood. Sometimes imaging hundreds of non existent muscles, misplace ent or over inflated. Jim Lee’s Batman shows a protruding chest through an arced spine while Liefeld’s is through bloated muscles. Which also don’t align with the reference of Arnold.
Beautiful production values here. Subscribed.
Have you done anything about Norm Breyfogle? His art was unique and iconic, and honestly, I didn't appreciate him enough when he was alive.
The one thing you don’t bring up is at this point in Liefeld’s career he had a studio of freelancers working for him that he allegedly took credit for their work. It’s possible he didn’t even draw that picture and was just like “it’s fine Jim” because he didn’t want to redraw it himself or get the freelancer back in to fix it.
As a comic collector in that time I remember his style and loved it as a kid. As an adult I realize it’s shortcomings but people forget that he wasn’t the only one drawing in that style. Personally while the 90s are not my favorite comic era as far as art goes I prefer those comics to the early 2000s push back, especially post X-Men movie where costumes became boring and attempts were made to make them more “realistic”. Plus early computer drawn images and coloring was definitely an art form that needed to evolve.
The real freelancer story is that during the early years of image, when the founders had essentially free reign over everything they produced Rob started creating an absurd amount of books(Youngblood,Prophet,Supreme,Brigade and Bloodstrike), he didn't want to leave or cancel any of the books he started picking some writers and artists that were part of a Image project that tried to get more writers/editors/inkers and letterers, Rob would send them the plot so they would do the script and gesture drawings so they would complete(which having seen his gesture drawings was pretty much everything) if they accepted he helped them publish their books and would put a preview of their books on his, never heard any problem about proper crediting, and it seems that he stopped doing it after not long after since even with this whole pricedure it still was a shit load of work so many books were ended, he put new teams altogether on some or they went on a hiatus.
The problem with that theory of freelance doing the artwork is drawing style is like a finger print. That is clearly his drawing style, and I mean it's all messed up looking in proportions.
Did you not watch the video? Rob literally talks about drawing it lol.
@@randallrohr623 You know people can lie right?
@@nilus2k and what gives you more credibility 😭
I knew all this already - BUT you put it together BEAUTIFULLY! (actually you beat me to it, I wanted to do a video myself, but now Ill just lead everyone to this video!)
Good work!👍🏾 Knowing that he doubled-down on the look when given the chance to retract the sketch is STILL hilarious😂
As an artist, I can tell you that there are two perspective grids on that artwork. The chest is conforming to one grid. The rest of the body (deltoids, arms, spine, etc) are conforming to another grid. The whole image is supposed to abide by one grid consistently.
Also, That's a straight up 2 point persp. Not a 3 point, which would be necessary to depict a figure from a lower POV.
The arm still needs to be somewhat longer in relation to the chest. The neck and head aren't in correct proportion or size compared to the rest of the body (even for a bulked up physique). The trapezius muscles would need to be bigger. The head and neck would be bigger irrespective. It's like a more average (bigger)head got pasted onto the hulk.
All these issues are not present in the HUSH Batman example. That's very consistently drawn with good angle breakages on the silhouette as needed for a more average physique.
So it's still not a good drawing.
It was very strange to point to that Lee Batman as if it was the same kind of drawing when it very clearly isn't.
This is an absolutely fantastic video. Smashed it yet again, dude.
No matter what people say about rob, his drawings, or his business practices, Rob loves comics and when he talks about his favorites like x-men its infectious
Wow man, EXCELLENT video. I can't believe your channel is this small and I'm very, very happy with RUclips's recommendations right now for bringing me here. Subbed and about to go on a really fun dive into your content!
The left pec should not be poking out that far, because he's practically in profile. If the left shoulder or arm were visible, it would be a 3/4 view - but it isnt. It's a botched profile.
Comparing it to that incredible Jim Lee piece is basically offensive.
As a big Mark Gruenwald fan who isn't fond of Rob's work, I've always found the whole Rob killed Mark thing weird, like I've never understood it, wondered if it was just a bad taste joke and it just always made me uncomfortable.
2:10 - RUclipsr claims that art was never published. Comic book just disappeared from the timeline. I owned a book where that image was published back then (I gave it away a few years ago). It was published.
7:49
I have to disagree. Look at where Arnold’s neck and head are in relation to Cap’s.
This was a fantastic video. Instantly subscribed. Prepare for some new comments on old videos.
Keep fighting for that 90s art my dude.
That culture was what you get when you pair artistic freedom with fan service.
90s kids unite!!
I think why its wrong is that sometimes when you use a reference but edit for a different pose, you have to adjust other body parts too. If Rob did use that Arnold/side bicep bodybuilding pose. He didn't adjust for the arms squeezing in the chest to push it out and give the body that slight turn. If you remove the arms, the body would straighten out more and the chest would get (look) smaller.
exactly, he badly tried to adapt a 3/4 pose into a profile shot. the head wings are also badly off.
I think I say it ever time, but this is one of the absolute best channels. Please keep doing what you do. Let’s get rid of misinformation. And you are NOT pedantic.
I'm sorry, but saying that's anatomically correct, because if you draw Cap's arms in a certain way, then it's correct, is just nonsense. He's not doing a bodybuilder pose, he's standing there with his shield.
And hell, that's not even true. Cap's left pectoral isn't even flexing, nor does it look like it's going to join up with his neck.
Please don't compare Liefeld to Lee. Rob never took any art classes in anatomy. Jim has his knowledge in anatomy because he was originally studying to become a doctor at Harvard.
Moon Knight threatening Dracula for money may *not* be an actual moment from the comics, but it *should* be. Comics should be fun.
Excellent video. I always hated that Cap. America drawing but never understood it until now.
Thank you for making this. When I first got into comics I was on board with the Liefeld hate train but the more I studied the medium and the more I got into comics, the more I began to appreciate Liefeld's work. Then I looked into the infamous Captain America drawing, now I'm not a bodybuilder by any means but I am a pro wrestler who does bodybuilding exercises since I have a passing interest in the sport, I also have a prop Captain America shield(he's my favorite) and despite me being under 200 lbs, I can actually recreate the Captain America pose to prove that it's just a trick of the eye. My chest is nowhere near as big as Arnold Schwarzenegger's but if I can recreate that pose, then anyone with any muscle mass on their pectorals can do it.
Bodybuilders look weird. They look inhuman so of course if you reference them since they do dynamic posing routines, they're going to look strange when put to pen and paper.
I also dislike how Liefeld's been absolutely berated by comic fans for his hyper muscular art style. If you follow the man's current line of work then you'll see that like all artists must do, he's evolved with the times. He no longer does the hyper muscular mass monster type bodies unless it has a point or in the character's design(see Hulk or Juggernaut). But what I actually appreciate about his work is that despite evolving with the times he still managed to maintain a recognizable style that's distinctively Liefeld. It really proves just how talented he truly is because in the 90s everybody tried drawing like him or imitating his style but to this day, nobody actually draws like he does.
I get that he's polarizing nowadays, but I get excited when I hear that he's working on a book because I know what I'll get. Something visually interesting, honest, and has an emphasis on action, heroics, and cool characters. That's all I want in comics.
I didn't quite realize it was never published in a Cap comic, but it's definitely primarily just ridiculous because Cap isn't supposed to be shaped like that, and he composed and posed it in a bit of an awkward way.
Absolutely fascinating piece, thanks for putting this together! I love getting multiple perspectives on issues and this was a really wonderful presentation of a perspective I don't think I'd ever encountered. This is also especially interesting to me as someone who was collecting Marvel comics when Liefeld joined them, and I still have in my basement many of his earliest Marvel works, including X-Factor #40 and the first appearances of Cable and Deadpool in the New Mutants. I really ought to get some of them appraised one of these days...
You're missing the problem with it. Disclaimer: I do understand it was a quick promo piece and ultimately, its fine for that. On the Arnie photo, I can tell that his opposite shoulder is in the correct place, well in front of the facing shoulder. On the Cap drawing, it looks like his opposite shoulder is directly behind the one we see. Thats why it looks wrong. :)
Yeah, it can only make sense of Cap’s entire arm is missing, from the shoulder down. Maybe some shark-man (or alligator) character bit it off.
This feels like you’ve genuinely made an effort to go against the grain purely for views.
Cap isn’t in a flexing position, his arm could be 6 inches smaller or longer with a super soldier serum, it’s not even 3/4 perspective:
Tog could be talking about a cup of coffee here, and it would still be latent what lengths you’ll go to for a view. Thanks for the stories, it’s a no from me.
When art is at war with deadline. Protracted batle with timeline hurts perspective and sense of reason..
That reference you made to fans wondering if the Moon Knight meme would be in the show made me think of the “I’m the Juggernaut, bitch!” line from the RUclips video(s) that actually got used in X3 lol
This is a great video. The criticisms I had while watching were all eventually soothed, you hit every mark fs
LOVED THE VIDEO!! Love hearing you talk about comics history and the art itself!
I already debunked that tumblr post when it popped up, but I am glad to do it again here. First, the chest is not the only problem, there are a ton of flaws with that art. People just fixate on the chest which is indeed drawn wrong. No amount of Rob Stans will ever be able to change that. But second, and this is a big one, Arnie's left shoulder is pushed forward allowing the chest to flex and roll forward as well. So, where does that leave lifeild's art? Well, if the torso is indeed turned, then he still has baby arms, his shoulder cap is missing and his neck is growing out of his trap. If he's in side view as the neck and front shoulder position would suggest, then he still has a massive chest issue and baby arms among other anatomical issues. So no, not technically correct at all.
And in case anyone wants to whine about the baby arms comment, the tumblr artist's own art shrinks the forearm to fit behind the shield while lengthening it in the bent position. On top of that, the arm doesn't go all the way through the shield and never has, so while he may have managed to fit one back there, its still wrong. I know we like to stick up for our favorite artists but they do bad art some times. They are human despite what they meant to our childhoods. The simple fact is, this is a stinker no matter how many mental gymnastics we do to try to make the art work. It will be ok though. There's plenty of stuff from Rob to enjoy in his 40+ years of drawing comics. You'll be fine.
Thank you for setting the record straight.
Great video as always, keep up the great work
Leifeld is a bad artist, apologizing for him never learning to properly render is just weird.
It's still not even technically, anatomically correct. The fact that you COULD fit an arm behind the shield at ALL doesn't mean that's how that shield would sit ON the arm (which is how we would estimate WHERE the arm is behind the shield).
And a lot of your argument works better for photography than it does illustration. There's no incidental composition in illustration; it's not like Cap's body just HAPPENED to be obscured by the shield. You're essentially defending his ability to draw a body by implicitly shitting on his ability to compose an image in general.
Thank you for sharing, keep doing what you do!!!
Its crazy I am old enough to know this was not in an actual book just in a promo
It is 100% anatomically incorrect
Liefields cap was my Cap, when I think of Cap it’s Robs interpretation of the sentinel of liberty, but you’re talking to a guy that thinks the Chris Bangle but BMW 7 series is one of the most beautiful BMWs ever made (for those car guys out there) LOL
Speaking of images getting blood boiling....why does homeboy have THREE turtles next to a MARVEL sign?!?!🤣
By removing the interlocked arms, the anatomy is not correct anymore, because that's how the bodybuilders twist and bulge their pecs into that position. That however, is not that relevant, because illustration is not about correct anatomy, unless you're drawing for an anatomy atlas. There is no anatomically correct superhero illustration and who cares? Expression and composition are king. People want to see stuff that looks good, nitpicking comes later if ever. And that's where Liefeld's pic fails. But hey, which artist doesn't have a crappy, disowned piece of work?
Mark Grunewalds work on Captain America comics is so underrated
Great insightful video, love your type of vids! Gonna check more of your work for sure.
Keep it up!
Really interesting video. An architecture professor taught us the technically correct way of doing perspective drawings -- then warned us that even something drawn the right way can look wrong to the eye.
Every defense you’re making about this awful drawing is just pointing out that it’s not good.
There are actually many many Liefeld drawings that are the same. His proportions are terrible, the poses are terrible and don’t get me started about their faces. The worst part of his art to me is I was copying his style as a kid for a while before I knew enough about art to realize I was learning some really bad art skills.
Brother, you are truly doing the Lord's work. That re-worked image @ 8:04 REALLY contextualizes Liefeld's image, which I usually thought of as merely lazy, not actually bad art per-se...
It is lazy since, well, he referenced an entirely different pose, flex and perspective to go off of.
I wouldn't use a picture of someone jumping to draw someone crawling. This is the lazy mistake he made above all else, before he even started drawing.
Just subscribed; good work. I have enjoyed the video a lot. Cheers!
It's amazing how much time has been devoted to talking about this horrific drawing over the years.
Nice stuff. I myself remember the Sean Howe book mentioning Mark buying the comic, and to me it was less "this killed Mark!" than "this is a symbol of just how shitty it had gotten for Mark". I think the meme got out of control largely thanks to Linkara's "Rob Liefeld wrote a comic so bad it MAY HAVE KILLED A MAN!" statement, which took that snippet and ran with it.
I’ve seen this image all over the Internet, but I never realized there was so much to it. I’d never heard the story about the heart attack, which even if I had, I’d probably assume it was internet commenters fabricating rumors (as they do best).
Fascinating video for sure. I’ll be slightly less critical of this image going forward, although Liefeld characters with triangular feet and dozens upon dozens of teeth are still fair game.
He also drew the Beast with only four toes .
I really like your points and the artist rendering of the anatomy in the draw-over. The Liefeld video on this channel from a while back challenged my perspective and made me appreciate Liefeld. But I want to challenge the idea it would be accurate anatomically if the arm wrapped around.
The neck placement would still be way off sitting on his right deltoid. And the shoulder muscles are drawn at a side view while the chest is drawn at a 3/4 angle I think? And I feel like the combination of these factors still make it gross. Like you said, vertically it makes sense. And the thickness is fine. Just the placement is really bad. But that doesn't inherently make Liefeld a bad artist. idk
Yeah, the anatomy is still off. The chest and abs look like they're at a 3/4 view but like you said, the head placement is off and the shoulder looks side on. So it's like part of the figure is in 3/4 view and the other part is side on. It doesn't gel together. Still a great video though.
I think without the left arm bending and wrapping in front of the chest it would never look that way, that’s the main key there
@@ajdz1840 I think you're right. But it would have been an easy fix if he just nudged the neck to the right.
@@georgelukhava9945 Definitely. This channel is a gem and I'm glad I know the real story now.
@@user-nv9vn8fm1d I agree with you. This is probably the prime example of showing the pitfalls of using photo reference but then trying to customise the pose without having fundamental knowledge of anatomy to know how a seemingly small change can actually throw everything out of whack. As you said, the neck adjustment would have corrected for it to a reasonable degree. To be fair to Rob, the original bodybuilding pose is extraordinary in how it seemingly distorts the body, but that's no doubt why it was a famous pose to begin with to get that superhuman pec bulge
this is such a good video. cheers man!
People give Rob Leifeild shit All The time.. they'll go miles out there way to find his weakest work and shove it in your face.. to the hater's i say constantly go look at his work on Hawk&Dove the 1988 mini series. Then it's easy to see how he made his mark. That run Made me fall in love with comics and never gets the credit it deserves and to this day is some of my favorite comic book art.
Cue up to the 7:45 mark. Three points of comparison between the Arnold Schwarzenegger photo and Captain America illustration--
One, observe how much of Arnold's upper back can be seen in the photo -- none at all, except for a tiny bit of his right trapezius. On Cap, we either see enough of his upper back that the perspective for that area is angled slightly around behind Cap's torso, or his right deltoid and right triceps are ridiculously wide -- I can't even tell which one Liefeld was attempting. The drawn-in example at 7:27 shows the latter, and the result is that Cap's biceps/triceps are collectively so wide that you could almost fit two of Cap's heads into that space. For a tiny-headed rendition of the Hulk, this might work but not for Captain America.
Two, observe that the top portion of Arnold's left upper pectoral is about the same height as the top of his right upper pec. On Cap, the top portion of the left upper pec is considerably lower. Looks like he's missing a large amount of muscle mass.
Three, observe that there are dome-like protuberances between Cap's lower pecs (where the sternum/xiphoid process should be) and below the center of his right lower pec. In the Arnold photo, no such structures appear -- because normal human anatomy does not contain such structures.
Also, though the Arnold photo does not include a star on his chest, observe that the star on Cap's chest is rendered as though Cap's right and left pecs form a single curved surface with virtually no depression ("crease") between them. In the Arnold photo there is clearly a deep depression between his pecs.
Bonus gripe -- the right wing on Cap's headgear appears to be perfectly perpendicular to the viewer, even though Cap's head is turned at a 45-degree angle to the viewer, and the left wing is angled upward about 45 degrees, though the top of the right wing appears to be on a horizontal plane.
Whenever I get a fresh batch of RUclips videos to watch I always leave yours 'til last, Josh - 'cause no matter how much I enjoy the others, I always know there is something better yet to come; you never disappoint, and I always finish my viewing on a high.
This one is no exception.
Whilst I'm not a fan of Liefeld's art (I'm more in the Perez, Buscema, Byrne camp), you've certainly opened my mind to an appreciation of its merits for others.
I've known a few artists in my lifetime - writers, painters, musicians, a poet, and a sculptor - and they've all been their worst critics; I've yet to meet one that ever really wants to stop "fiddling" with their work, and I'm sure Liefeld is no exception. This particular piece, were it meant for general consumption, would no doubt have been altered considerably before being published... The hatred for it just goes to show there was still a bandwagon to jump on before the advent of the internet's social media!
As always, an excellent, top-notch video Josh.
And again, as always in my usual shallow way, I compliment you on being one helluva handsome Dude!
Stay safe always, Fella - You and yours. :)
Coming back for a rewatch after seeing Liefeld drew a new cover with Sam Wilson in this same pose (but now it actually will be printed as a variant).
Great work because the truth should matter.
It's what we should be building our history upon.
I wouldn't get too upset about what some juvenile comic geeks might be spewing out. It's usually just a phase, mature reflection takes time.
What! People didn't like your Rob Liefeld/Cobain video? I thought it was genius! It gave me an appreciation of the raw emotion of the Image crew and the fascinating vulnerability of a lot of Liefeld's work. Hell, it made me appreciate comic art more in general. Don't let the haters get you down, PtP!
really shouldn't have made the bit about anatomical inaccuracy being false lol. the reference photo itself proves it. blaming colorist becoz of his fuck up is ridiculous too