My two main motivations to become an Eastern Orthodox Christian from being a baptist, were beauty, depth and tradition in worship, but also a clearly laid out spiritual pathway to follow, in pursuit of Christlikeness, regular confession, for example, the centrality of the Eucharist in worship, as opposed to the sermon, the regular fasting periods, the disciplines and blessings available in everyday Orthodox living outside of church. I always felt as a baptist, you reallly had to design your own spirituality outside of church.
An interesting discussion. Thank you. The change began with the Reformation which abolished asceticism, eventually fasting, and the inherited interpretation of Scripture based on theosis. Together with the 'Enlightenment' and the process of turning the self into God. In the Roman Catholic Church, the big recent fall escalated with Vatican II when they decided they needed to 'modernise' to appeal to modern society. I converted from RC to Eastern Orthodox over 30 years ago, living in a rural town in England. The steady flow of converts are primarily from Evangelicals of all Protestant denominations and non-denominational... and atheists. It's not all 'intellectuals'. It's primarily young men (which is a strange phenomenon), simply wanting Christ and truth. Worship 'in the Temple' is not about being entertained and getting a buzz from the event, but about what we give of ourselves to God, with due respect, fear and love, in communion with the Church of our fellow Christians... and to partake in the central gift of the Church which is the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist. When that message is grasped, then people can see that it's not actually about them and what they get, but about God... God, not made in their image, according to their interpretation, but the risen Christ of the first Christians. The Christian ethos of Eastern Christianity is a world away from the Protestant and Roman Catholic West. 'The Orthodox Faith' by Kalistos Ware is a great book to help understand this, if you've not read it. God bless you.
Some years ago I spoke at an evangelical-run Muslim-Christian Relations conference on the topic of persecution of Christians. As part of that event, I was put on a panel comprised of two muslims and two Christians, to provide Muslim (sunni ans shia) and Christian answers answers to a set of questions. The final question was: "Do Muslims and Christians believe in the same Jesus?" Being an expert apologist on the subject of Islam, the other Christian provided a brilliant intellectual response to conclude, "No." Both muslima then argued, "Yes." My words (which happened to be the final words of the night - if i remember correctly) were a recitation of the Nicaean Creed (re Jesus): "I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages ..." (etc , to the end of the long middle section, ending, "His kingdom will have no end."). It was a Holy Spirit thing in answer to prayer as I wasn't even aware I had memorised it! THEN I simply asked the Muslims on the panel: "This is the Jesus we believe in; is this the Jesus you believe in?" And all we could hear was the sound of grinding teeth. It was awesome ...got applause... thank-you Holy Spirit ... and thank-you all those pastors who got me to recite and hear the Nicaran Creed every Sunday for so many years. 🕊️
How can we ever effect any change by God’s grace through faith if we are not allowed to preach law and gospel from where we are in the maelstrom of secularism???
Thank you gentlemen. I would love to see recitation of creeds as a thing we do in our churches and I worry that we don't. Also some ancient hymns would be excellent, and some recitation of the Psalms. Oh dear this now sounds like old man shouting at clouds. But if you insist on forcing a choice, I would prefer to not reinvent the wheel each week. The Lord's prayer that I prayed last week is still just as good this week.
There was some discussion recently in (I think) the Southern Baptist Convention, in the USA, about the idea of taking the Nicene Creed as their "statement of faith" I think the idea was rejected in the end, and some of the phrases in the creed could cause headaches (One baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, for example) but that fact that it was seriously discussed at all was significant, I feel.
Perhaps THE defining shift in values, which occurred in my lifetime, flowed out of the Holocaust and the Civil Rights Movement. Thinking or feeling that Jews or people of color were bad or inferior in some way became seen as the most mortal sin, the ultimate transgression against the good and true and beautiful. Thus conduct, formerly the arena in which good and evil expressed themselves and engaged in combat, receded in significance and deferred to thoughts and feelings as the ethical battleground. For example, the white guy who harbored, due to cultural conditioning, the idea that black people were inferior to whites, yet who would dive into a raging river in a heartbeat to save a drowning child of any color, was considered evil. And the person who thought and felt that all people were equal in every way, or at least claimed to so think and feel, was considered a good person without regard to whether he or she had the courage to risk his or her life to save a child. In a nutshell, virtue embodiment gave way to virtue signalling, and the upshot is the sorry state of society which now demoralizes the beat of us.
what do you think about Christians making a big core institutional headquarter like BYU for Mormons...so many smaller Christian colleges are Christian in name only like SMU, TCU, Baylor
by Protestant do you mean semi-catholic like liturgical, Anglican and Lutheran? where I live those churches are very rare... and have succumbed to extreme liberalism like the Methodist Church... there are mostly Evangelical churches here which would be more in the tradition of anabaptism.. do you see a resurgence of Protestant churches or are you including Evangelical churches under that category?
I asked a teenager recently who was raised in an academic Bible Church and the leading Christian School in Dallas, Texas. if they knew one proof for the evidence of God or the resurrection of Christ... they said no. in church there was low-level color sheet, type of activity and the school had largely been induced by the state to provide mostly the same curriculum as the deconstructing government teaches in public schools... So that school is planning to build a nice new gymnasium, but most of their students have no sense of Christian history, worldview, values, or apologetics... they have enough but not enough to combat the weight of pagan programing
I like the idea that we should have a degree of acceptance about the culture..but how do we deal with parents and churches not being able to even teach their children like Germany...and people targeting faith businesses just to find what they won't do ( bake a trans wedding cake) and suing them out of business
The great evangelical theologian Francis Schaeffer made that argument in his 1977 book, How Should We Then Live: The Rise and Decline of Western Thought and Culture. He's not read as widely as he should be these days, but his work holds up. He had a few bad ideas over his career, but he tended to work through them.
Speaking as an agnostic of the transcendent and supernatural, it seems to me that Christian church and community does have some moral cultural value for societal stability - whether or not church members actually believe in God. However I think resistance and mockery of Christianity is a response to its inherent outward evangelicalism - you preach in my face and I will ridicule your faith-based delusions in return. A further problem is the 'battle of the sects' which has been a feature of Christianity since the 1st century - despite creeds and canonization. There is also no doubt that attempts by sects to adapt and re-invent themselves and then fracture in the process (eg the Church of England), doesn't help the cause!
Resistance and mockery of Christians has been around for 2,00 years. Jesus predicted it, not as a result of evangelicalism (sic) but because the world hates all that Christianity demands.
My two main motivations to become an Eastern Orthodox Christian from being a baptist, were beauty, depth and tradition in worship, but also a clearly laid out spiritual pathway to follow, in pursuit of Christlikeness, regular confession, for example, the centrality of the Eucharist in worship, as opposed to the sermon, the regular fasting periods, the disciplines and blessings available in everyday Orthodox living outside of church. I always felt as a baptist, you reallly had to design your own spirituality outside of church.
An interesting discussion. Thank you.
The change began with the Reformation which abolished asceticism, eventually fasting, and the inherited interpretation of Scripture based on theosis.
Together with the 'Enlightenment' and the process of turning the self into God.
In the Roman Catholic Church, the big recent fall escalated with Vatican II when they decided they needed to 'modernise' to appeal to modern society.
I converted from RC to Eastern Orthodox over 30 years ago, living in a rural town in England. The steady flow of converts are primarily from Evangelicals of all Protestant denominations and non-denominational... and atheists.
It's not all 'intellectuals'. It's primarily young men (which is a strange phenomenon), simply wanting Christ and truth.
Worship 'in the Temple' is not about being entertained and getting a buzz from the event, but about what we give of ourselves to God, with due respect, fear and love, in communion with the Church of our fellow Christians... and to partake in the central gift of the Church which is the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist.
When that message is grasped, then people can see that it's not actually about them and what they get, but about God... God, not made in their image, according to their interpretation, but the risen Christ of the first Christians.
The Christian ethos of Eastern Christianity is a world away from the Protestant and Roman Catholic West.
'The Orthodox Faith' by Kalistos Ware is a great book to help understand this, if you've not read it.
God bless you.
Wonderful interview.
Some years ago I spoke at an evangelical-run Muslim-Christian Relations conference on the topic of persecution of Christians. As part of that event, I was put on a panel comprised of two muslims and two Christians, to provide Muslim (sunni ans shia) and Christian answers answers to a set of questions. The final question was: "Do Muslims and Christians believe in the same Jesus?" Being an expert apologist on the subject of Islam, the other Christian provided a brilliant intellectual response to conclude, "No." Both muslima then argued, "Yes." My words (which happened to be the final words of the night - if i remember correctly) were a recitation of the Nicaean Creed (re Jesus): "I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages ..." (etc , to the end of the long middle section, ending, "His kingdom will have no end."). It was a Holy Spirit thing in answer to prayer as I wasn't even aware I had memorised it! THEN I simply asked the Muslims on the panel: "This is the Jesus we believe in; is this the Jesus you believe in?" And all we could hear was the sound of grinding teeth. It was awesome ...got applause... thank-you Holy Spirit ... and thank-you all those pastors who got me to recite and hear the Nicaran Creed every Sunday for so many years. 🕊️
Grew up near Grove City College and so glad I went to Youngstown State University instead.
In our Orthodox parishes we sing the Nicene Creed together at every service of Divine Liturgy.
Christ is King ✝️
God made a few perfect heads, the rest He covered with hair. Some of us are becoming more perfect :)
Scripture tells us to be bold and courageous, not bald and outrageous.
Very funny 🤣
Glad to find this channel.. we're finding each other!
How can we ever effect any change by God’s grace through faith if we are not allowed to preach law and gospel from where we are in the maelstrom of secularism???
Brilliant episode!
Thank you gentlemen. I would love to see recitation of creeds as a thing we do in our churches and I worry that we don't. Also some ancient hymns would be excellent, and some recitation of the Psalms. Oh dear this now sounds like old man shouting at clouds. But if you insist on forcing a choice, I would prefer to not reinvent the wheel each week. The Lord's prayer that I prayed last week is still just as good this week.
There was some discussion recently in (I think) the Southern Baptist Convention, in the USA, about the idea of taking the Nicene Creed as their "statement of faith" I think the idea was rejected in the end, and some of the phrases in the creed could cause headaches (One baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, for example) but that fact that it was seriously discussed at all was significant, I feel.
The animation sounds on this video are so annoying. Please stop!
Perhaps THE defining shift in values, which occurred in my lifetime, flowed out of the Holocaust and the Civil Rights Movement. Thinking or feeling that Jews or people of color were bad or inferior in some way became seen as the most mortal sin, the ultimate transgression against the good and true and beautiful. Thus conduct, formerly the arena in which good and evil expressed themselves and engaged in combat, receded in significance and deferred to thoughts and feelings as the ethical battleground. For example, the white guy who harbored, due to cultural conditioning, the idea that black people were inferior to whites, yet who would dive into a raging river in a heartbeat to save a drowning child of any color, was considered evil. And the person who thought and felt that all people were equal in every way, or at least claimed to so think and feel, was considered a good person without regard to whether he or she had the courage to risk his or her life to save a child. In a nutshell, virtue embodiment gave way to virtue signalling, and the upshot is the sorry state of society which now demoralizes the beat of us.
Many churches would do well to have their congregants memorize scripture before introducing creeds.
what do you think about Christians making a big core institutional headquarter like BYU for Mormons...so many smaller Christian colleges are Christian in name only like SMU, TCU, Baylor
by Protestant do you mean semi-catholic like liturgical, Anglican and Lutheran? where I live those churches are very rare... and have succumbed to extreme liberalism like the Methodist Church... there are mostly Evangelical churches here which would be more in the tradition of anabaptism.. do you see a resurgence of Protestant churches or are you including Evangelical churches under that category?
I asked a teenager recently who was raised in an academic Bible Church and the leading Christian School in Dallas, Texas. if they knew one proof for the evidence of God or the resurrection of Christ... they said no. in church there was low-level color sheet, type of activity and the school had largely been induced by the state to provide mostly the same curriculum as the deconstructing government teaches in public schools... So that school is planning to build a nice new gymnasium, but most of their students have no sense of Christian history, worldview, values, or apologetics... they have enough but not enough to combat the weight of pagan programing
I like the idea that we should have a degree of acceptance about the culture..but how do we deal with parents and churches not being able to even teach their children like Germany...and people targeting faith businesses just to find what they won't do ( bake a trans wedding cake) and suing them out of business
Alexander Dugin says our problems go back to the Rennaissiance...it seems there is a terminal problem started with man as the measure of all things
The great evangelical theologian Francis Schaeffer made that argument in his 1977 book, How Should We Then Live: The Rise and Decline of Western Thought and Culture. He's not read as widely as he should be these days, but his work holds up. He had a few bad ideas over his career, but he tended to work through them.
@@davidzauhar6813 Wow..loved that book..need to go back to it..he was brilliant
Why are they so allergic to addressing who to vote for? What's the great biblical conviction that requires such censorship?
..it's over..only people over 40 go to church any longer...disenfranchised with the "brand"
Gonzalez Brenda Hernandez Scott Allen Patricia
The major factor not discussed is the virtual hegemonic control of the instruments narative creation by the Democrat party.
Speaking as an agnostic of the transcendent and supernatural, it seems to me that Christian church and community does have some moral cultural value for societal stability - whether or not church members actually believe in God. However I think resistance and mockery of Christianity is a response to its inherent outward evangelicalism - you preach in my face and I will ridicule your faith-based delusions in return. A further problem is the 'battle of the sects' which has been a feature of Christianity since the 1st century - despite creeds and canonization. There is also no doubt that attempts by sects to adapt and re-invent themselves and then fracture in the process (eg the Church of England), doesn't help the cause!
Resistance and mockery of Christians has been around for 2,00 years. Jesus predicted it, not as a result of evangelicalism (sic) but because the world hates all that Christianity demands.