In regards to the wounds question: according to the shooting phase description of the wound roll. A caused wound is before armour saves and a lost wound is after. Therefore a unit losing wounds will not allow an armour save but a caused wound do.
Agreed. And in a very pedantic way, taking armour saves is mentioned in the chain of events in both shooting and close combat phase separately, as if they are distinct but surprisingly identical occurrences. It's not like "here is this general principle in the game: whenever you lose a wound, take an armour save." So one could argue for difficult terrain that there are just no saves of any kind, just as there is no to-hit or to-wound roll.
I had a very funny first game against my friend, my high elves vs his bretonnians at 1250pts. Turn 1 his trebuchet blew up, turn 2 I terror routed his peasants off the table, with my griffon, and then a fiery convication caused a unit of his knights to panic and flee through a second unit of knights and both go straight off the table as well. We both thought it was such a silly and hilarious way to start, loved it
Terrain wounds, thematically, represents getting stuck in the mud, horses with twisted legs etc. They might not be dead, they just can't fight this battle
1:39:10 completely agree. Learning rules is important and once you know them you can have more fun and allow others to have fun. My favourite strategy is flash cards with rules on them. It’s like learning content for an examination. Also fail to prepare. Prepare to fail.
My first game was skaven v ogres. My ratling guns were extremely strong. Poison wind mortar would have been better against humans, or goblins, but i had ogres as an opponent. What was surprising was that my stormvermin and his Iron Guts had a long and drawn out combat. We both had characters in the fight too. I even got my abomination into the rear of that combat in the second round. It was just a grinding fight because we both got a crap load of defensive buffs on our units. Eventually a bruiser, tyrant and slaughter priest were able to break my stormvermin but he chose to reform instead of pursuing. My stormvermin fell back in good order, so I was able to charge again and the game ended with him losing his bulls to ratling guns. He lost a scap launcher to jezzails. I lost the jezzails to panic from losing 1. The abomination died in the last round. But what sealed the victory for him was that he killed my BSB.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld his rules outline what “natural” terrain is, which is woods, difficult and dangerous terrain as long as it doesn’t contain any buildings or walls.
Ambushes were clutch! I lost to Vampire Counts but a unit of 10 ungor bow-goats and 15 gors with 2 hand weapons and the totem of rust punched well above their weight in disrupting his plans by killing a necromancer, a unit of knights and a nice sized block of skeletons. Even my lone razorgor managed to rush to hit that redirected skell unit in the rear! The rest of my army got ground down but it was a learning experience and we both had an absolute blast. Thank you so very much for the work you 2 put in. You've not only rekindled my love for this game but stoked the the flame to conflagration levels!
Really appreciate the discussion around counter play. I totally agree, I think it’s good to think about the game as tactics and figuring out counter play rather than just thinking things are OP right off the bat.
Some of my first experiences: Running Warriors of Chaos 1000pts. I had a big block of Chosen Warriors, a Sorcerer Lord full of buffing spells, 2 units of Marauders and 2 units of Marauder Horsemen. The game went hilariously as I realized that using Steed of Shadows on a unit in Marching Column would let them move 36 inches flying. It was also when I found out that outnumbering is actually a massive thing to turn FBIGO into a straight up Flee. Aparently chosen cannot just yolo into 10 Tomb Guard and 30 Skeleton Warriors and expect to win lol as they were forced to flee and got run down. From another game, I learned that High Elves can plonk an Archmage on top of a Dragon and cast Walk Between Worlds to make it Ethereal.
Love this vortex-building thing, will definitely do it too. Ideally the templates should also have that central hole, though! Almost surprising that GW is missing out on selling a box with all eight vortices.
Is the weakness to linehammer not the overarching movement rule that prevents any model moving more than double their movement in any manoeuvre. That would severely limit any charges the line could make, as they would struggle to close the door if the line is too long.
Played 2 games, Gobbos Vs Brets and Gobbos Vs Empire. Gobbos won both games! They die in droves and yes the basic gobbo is literally just meat speed bump, but all the wacky stuff like squigs and trolls slap hard :) Brets felt very powerful, their heavy cavalry charges are terrifying to face off against. Empire was interesting. State Troops are very middling, but by sigmar cannons are great. To be clear, they are not OP, they just do consistent damage against all targets.
7 games in so far. Two with Bretonnia, two with Dwarfs, three with Warriors of Chaos. Some friends and I play every weekend here in my games room, and we’re prepping for an RTT at the end of this month. I’ve pretty much decided to bring WoC to the tournament, I’ve been having a blast playing them. This weekend I have two more games planned. One more WoC, and another with my Night Goblins.
Also, Final Fantasy VII Rebirth is out this month. What a great start to gaming for 2024. My favourite tabletop ever comes back, along with the second part of one of my top 10 favourite video games of all time!
What sort of list do you take for WoC? I am having a hard time wrangling my collection and trying to plug holes. I also think WoC look a little boring on paper but I’m coming from 6th Ed hordes of chaos
This video made me theorize a strategy for my Empire. Instead of fielding big blocks of State Troops, you bring a modestly narrow unit and line up your Detachments even with the Regimental unit and force your opponent into Disordered Charges. What's more, if the Detachment is something like Handgunners, they still get to Stand-and-shoot.
the issue with having a modelled vortex spell is it can be fully beneath an enemy unit, they designed the rules to use the templates because the models can sit on top of it with almost no issue. makes me sad cause i wanted to model each vortex like endless spells (still might but i'll have to bring a flat template for when it goes underneath a unit)
Haven't gotten any games in yet. Starting my Bretonnian army from scratch and I hate playing with unpainted models so I'm painting away like a madman trying to get things done so I can play. I have a couple units done so far, but I'm probably still a couple months out at least since I'm painting my knights skittle-style with their own heraldries and colors which takes me a really long time. Until then, I'm vicariously living my Old World life through various batreps on youtube. Very excited to play.
I'm painting my Brets in "lance fournies", so for each knight who has individual heraldry, I paint one peasant from each unit type in matching heraldry (to represent the men he brought) so the only single heraldry units are my reliquaes. Brets are hard to prep, but always worth the effort when you finally place them on the table. Really looking forward to showing off my green knight who I've added glow paint flames to - blast him with a UV torch and he looks amazing
Yeah, I'm starting an Errantry army with knights all with their own heraldry. My list also has squires that I'm matching colors to their knight. I'll be ready to play a game in a couple years at my current rate.😂
I have played 4 games of TOW (2 on Warhall), and I absolutely love it! Beastmen feel really solid, ambush with rerolls from the Beastlord are quite strong. I did have a game where my minotaurs rolled six 3s to fail to ambush until round 5, but managed to pull out the W lol. Oh and my Ghorgon is 3-1 in monster fights!
Just remember, a wizard cannot dispel if they are engaged in combat. If your opponent only have a single level 4, charge that model with a cheap flyer such as an eagle, and you will have relative free reign in the magic phase
A question that does need answer: If you charge a unit in marching column formation, and kill enough models to bring it back to as wide as it is deep - is it still in marching column? When does it take effect?
good question, I see nothing in the rules stating you have to "change" into either formation, so I suppose it means if you lose enough models from a marching unit, that yes it would just instantly become a combat formation.
Great insights lads. For your vortex/dangerous terrain spam- Wood elf spellweaver with lore familiar using high magic. Take walk between worlds for reserve move, tempest and then take tree singing from the lore of loren. Add in your free woodland at the start of the game and however many level 1/2 with tree singing you want depending how much you want to annoy your opponent
The line isnt hard to defeat. The specific issue with dwarf firing line is hyped up a bit- it’s problematic if you insist on “forward from the front” with zero nuance. Terrain, flanks, flight, magic, multiple units, super speed…Theres ways. Does it suck and annoy? Big yea.
I've gotten 3 games against the same opponent, 1k and 1.5k of lizards then 2k of beasts all vs skaven. He's still finding the useful mix of his units, but also in the limited beastmen collection I recently acquired there were 9 dragon ogres and a shaggoth that we put on the board, found that to be quite strong. At least against clanrats.
My first game was my goblins vs my buddies tomb kings. All my units were larger so fear never occurred. My troll did a little too much work by taking out their necromancer. Lots of fun. Will use more terrain next time.
My argument is that if you don't want to charge through difficult terrain, then he needs to move and position better to make sure this does not happen. I think that the person on the other end maybe positioned their unit there so that if he wanted to charge, then you're going to have to charge through difficult.
My view on charging is that you have to move in the best way possible to successfully complete the charge. If that means not making full contact by having to avoid difficult terrain, then so be it. On the other hand, if you can complete the charge in full contact only while going through dangerous terrain, then you must go through, and risk the tests.
Really exciting to hear we're getting the payoff we were hoping for. My first game should be soon, only a few skellys left to build for the house to get some starter games going.. hadn't thought about the "identifying vortexes" problem so nice to have you guys solve the problem early for me ;)
In a Beastmen vs Brettonians fight I had with a Friend, my Trebuchet actually squashed a goodly number of Cheap Beastmen and killed about twice it's points value in Beastmen. And a Grail Reliquary held the line against a block of Dragon Ogres for there rounds, the Lady was their sheild.
GW could release an errata on “unit coherency” using the logic that for a unit to maintain coherency, no model may be positioned more than X inches away from the center of the front rank (you need to hear orders, maintain morale by staying near the leader/banner/musician whatever). This would limit how wide lines may form.
Fire tornados! That'd be a great model or STL! 🔥 🌪 Vortexes drive me nuts but thats also my bad for not taking strong enough wizards to dispel them. Rob, how'd your Dragon Ogres do? I love the heck out of them!! They're so strong!
Don't know if this has been covered anywhere, but, for a magical vortex "moves in a random direction " what do you do on the "hit" roll? The book kind of says the template stays in place if you are "scattering" others say follow the pip on the "hit". The book doesn't explicitly say how to work out "random movement". Same for fanatics.
On the suffers a wound thing, Eadbutt for Giants says "suffers D3+1 wounds with no armor or regen saved permitted (ward saves can be attempted as normal)" - the fact its specified suggests you wouldn't with dangerous terrain. There's similar 'loses a wound' wording for fleeing through enemies / hand of mork / feedback scroll and none mention saves, so maybe its safe to assume you don't get any save for any!
Id assume (happy to be corrected!) about the wheel taking you over difficult terrain situation, that at the point of declaring and rolling charges, you’d measured your shortest route and as long as that didn’t overlap difficult terrain, you’d be good to go ahead even if the subsequent wheel took you over it - you’ve already rolled at that point! Again, I’m a massive F’in casual, happy to be corrected!! Cheers for your content, both of you - I’ll have to check out an event you put on!
So with the challenge thing, I appreciate that it doesn't spell it out for people playing linehammer or more practically a unit of 5 knights that has a champion. If you decline then you have to retreat to the rear ranks. Therefor it follows that if you have no rear ranks, you can't retreat to them. I'd say that seems fair. Or to put another way if you can't get out of the fighting rank then you can't retreat from the fighting rank. With the witch elves charging and there is terrain, it does make it clear what the rules are. If the shortest route (to maximise models) is through the terrain, then it's through terrain. If you fail as a result then too bad. But I agree with the overall point that the charger doesn't have any wiggle room in their charges like in previous editions. No matter who moves the unit, you or your opponent it should end up in the exact same place as you always move to maximise and by the shortest route. I'd be interested in your interpretation on how ranked units charging skirmishers works. Do they move by the shortest route (as straight as possible) Do they move from centre of their unit to the closet visible (as shown in the image in the book and by the rules for directly towards on pg 92) or can you wheel to advantage like in previous editions.
Anyone thought that the push of the line in TOW might be to give it a more historical look? Because that's what you get when you build units accordingly. Say 10 wide and 2 deep. Place several of these units next to each other and you get something that looks like a real battleline like you could have seen on a Dark Ages or Medieval battlefield. Which is really cool, I think. They've actually shown this in some of the product pictures where armies clash and the regiments have sizes like 10 wide and 3 deep. It looks great.
@squareBasedOldWorld Just a heads up. I don’t think you can take the chaos sorcs in a skirmishing marauder blob, as they are different troop sub-types. Ie, the sorc’s are heavy infantry and the marauders are regular infantry.
I played 2 small 500pt games. high elves vs empire and wood elves vs bretonnia. it was a lot of consulting the books and getting used to how movement works. Still. the elves felt good. Good shooting, and the spear blocks are good.
Some people who are panicking about The Line also don't understand that no model can move more than double it's move characteristic during a maneuver. I've seen people saying things like they're going to change their 30 long line into a 30 deep file and that would require the models at the end moving 30 inches which is not a legal maneuver lol. Or they're going to "reform" and turn 90 degrees meaning the outside model is moving about 15" minimum. As an example, you can at best go from 24 wide quarrelers to 12x2 quarellers (the outside models need to scoot 6 inches in to fill the front rank shortest distance they can move being directly in rather than at an angle). Faster moving units can do this better or worse but even with MV6 you can at best go from 36 wide to 12x3. Not nearly as ludicrous as some people are saying it is and requires you to be "fast as fuck boy".
models can Move 3x movement speed when in a marching column pg 101 core rules book (deeper than they are wide 4 wide x 5 long for instance) but are not allowed to charge in that column so it doesn't counter your point i am just pointing out "No Models can move more than 2x movement" is not exactly correct, All rank and file can march x3 but would have to reform to charge.
I love the historical look of the wide formations. They've shown this in the product pics where units are something like 8 wide and 3 deep. A bunch of those next to each other look like a real battleline.
@@Jenx2092 the exact rule laid down in the errata is "no model may move more than x2 its movement unless in marching column or a dice roll allows it."
Played some test games on the weekend. Not real games, just learning the rules and having fun. F-ing loved it. Cannons sailing over heads, blowing up and running away. Dwarven hammerers being op. Dwarf lord with rune of smiting almost one shotting an imperial griffon. Said griffon eating up some long beards. Skaven... Sucking hahaha. Was just so much fun.
11 months late but here's my experience! I was playing a game of 40K against a friendly stranger and brought up The Old World to him (cuz I'm based) Apparently he had 3-4 fantasy armies collecting dust, and I had just impulse purchased a Bretonnia army. I haven't played a game of 40K since! We have played a few matches against his Dwarves, Ogres, and Orcs. I thought I stood a chance in the first game by chasing his Dwarves off his board edge but that was delusion speaking. Got my ass shot and kicked in that order xD
I got completely stomped. It was fun. Learning this many new rules makes my head hurt. My head literally hurts right now. But you know who else's head hurts? The elf upon whose head I dropped a pigeon bomb. :)
Haven't quite gotten to play yet, but I've sat on the side of a couple of games and helped with searching the rulebook, as I read the whole thing last week. I'm very excited to play a couple of 1k point games myself, then I can move up to 2k.
Just wanted to add, I am not sure if a chaos sorcerer can go in a skirmishing unit of marauders because they are a different unit type. The marauders are regular infantry while the sorcerer is heavy infantry. Minor rules thing but hope that helps (also correct me if I'm wrong please!).
Edit. You are correct. Heavy infantry character cannot join a regular infantry skirmishing unit. Just looked it up in the rulebook. Page 185, final paragraph
Just ordered some of the dice, they look awesome. Went with the blue to match my high elves. They are currently on "pre order". Do you know when they will be fully released?
Most of this discussion is probably focused on organized play situations. That’s where you really have to have a pretty tight and well understood rule set. Why? Because you ARE going to come up against “that guy”. In a casual play situation, then you’re almost into the Pirates of the Caribbean zone, where the rules are more guidelines. But as Val said, learning games between experienced players are also a good place to take your time and try to figure out “the right way”.
I agree with Rob that losing a wound is not the same as being wounded ergo no saves but for now I think it's best to play with saves until a much needed faq is added. I also love this shit Val :) On that note fyi Vortices and Vortexes are both correct ways of saying the plural :) Amazing video, one of the best yet!
I think there will be a case for unusually wide single rank units. Especially high quality troops. I don't think it will be standard though. I can see multi charging a wide unit an easy way to make it disappear. Deploying like this will require some thinking and careful management. Which alone means it's unlikely to be OP.
Lose wound is no save in my books, building it off an understanding of "general game language"; wherever rules state something looses wound, there is no save (iirc Horus Heresy has the same). There is the significant difference to what Val quoted and I just re-read in 8th edition core book - there the model suffers a wound. Again, standard game language, if you suffer a wound, you get some/all saves depending on circumstance.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld I really do disagree here. I as well think that no rulebook can be written with full clarity unless you want to have rulebook of 200+ rules pages (like for example MtG). Because no matter what you clarify, the community once the game is published will find new loopholes/inconsistencies; same goes to things that were not mentioned in the rules like for example the fighting rank because just as you explained, I do not think playtesters/designers looked for that specific way to break the game. While the rulebook has plenty of gaps that could be game critical or are simply oversight - the full rank fight (more from immersion experience than being too strong) and Drilled redressing before charge move Y/N, for me the difference between game language of suffered vs lost (as well referencing other GW games or other games in general) is pretty clear.
Instead of assuming people can understand it off "general game language", the rulebook should be clear as to what this general game language is. Maybe state the difference between losing a wound, suffering a wound, taking a wound, etc explicity. Should only be a single paragraph and solves every single one of these issues.
@@Mellowliciously Then I have better answer for you, having now re-read and searched the rulebook for all Armour instances. All instances of armour saves or ward saves or regenerations are explicitly stated in the rules either in Shooting or Combat resolution with "your opponent can make an Armour Save roll for each wound caused by your attacks." and additonally some spells call out no armour save permitted. Therefore still keeping in line with the explicit wording that you "your opponent can make an Armour Save roll for each wound caused by your attacks"
I have loved playing my Beastmen so far and ambushing Minotaurs are such a threat!! In my last game my unit of Bestigor which included a Wargor and Great Bray Shaman were in combat with a Skaven Abomination. The Great Bray Shaman cast Mantle of Ghorok gaining 5 attacks and strength and killed the Abomination…. The Abomination then fell over and killed my remaining Bestigor 🙃🤣. This is the exact reason I loved Warhammer Fantasy and it’s great to see that randomness come back !!
Best things about TOW: Step Up is gone (dead men don't fight). Less static combat (falling back, etc.). The Square Based podcast (keep those overviews coming, they're fantastic). Bigger bases (whaaaat? yes, I said it, I actually really like 30mm bases for my Warriors of Chaos). Worst things about TOW: Empty shelves (come on GW, you're breaking my heart). Unlimited "Fighting Rank" bonus attacks (seems a little weird to me, should have just been capped at max 1 or 2 per side, perhaps 3 for Skirmishers to symbolize their agility). Magic (I don't hate it and I'm sure it'll just take some getting used to, but I kinda miss the little meta game of dice pool economy. Whatever, it's fine). Overall: Very happy with the game!
I think in the case where following the shortest path would block the charge, you should take that path anyway, and simply count it as a disordered charge. To represent the loss of momentum of having to cross difficult terrain. Because taking the longer route seems to easy to exploit for your own benefit Unless you want to FAQ the rules to let you charge however you want, which is probably a nightmare 😊
I really like the ability for everyone in the front rank to make supporting attacks, but I think it needs some kind of a limit and I have a very simple solution. A model should never be able to make a supporting attack if the target unit is more than its movement characteristic away from it. This way a line of say 10 orcs could charge into a lone character and maybe 7 of them get to fight but not all 10
Finally! I've been having SBW (Square-Based Withdrawal). You guys spoiled us with a flurry of clips back at launch, so this drought the past few days has been hard to adjust to.
Had a few games as Empire, against my mate with his skaven at 1k,1.5,2k, any tips to help skaven with low leadership issues? Empire feel solid, Outriders have been MVP, Grand Master on Demigryph with all the trimmings also slaps.
I've played two games so far. Really enjoyable. A Black Orc Warboss, kitted out, on a Wyvern is a real threat and 10xThunderers with Great Weapons in a line are pretty nice too. I'm still getting the hang of magic but the magic missiles were pretty underwhelming for me too although some buff spells are really nice. Overall I'm really enjoying Old World right now. Great to hear your thoughts too :)
So great to hear your experiences, and comforting to know you struggle with the rules depth and complexity too. I wonder if an LLM chatGPT4 rules app would be useful or if anyone is working on thinking about? I'm enjoying the depth and customization in list building but worry the gameplay experience could be too much rules referencing and lawyering, which killed older editions of 40k adn WHFB for me. But, it could also be consistent with overall play experience, where the rules bog of warhammer TOW sort of parallels fog of war and getting crunchy within the back and forth momentum of combat resolutions over multiple turns. Thanks guys!
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Check out our cool dices here!: thehonestwargamer.com/product-category/square-based/
Love the fact that my RUclips subtitles put Val's name as Val helpful finger 😂
In regards to the wounds question: according to the shooting phase description of the wound roll. A caused wound is before armour saves and a lost wound is after. Therefore a unit losing wounds will not allow an armour save but a caused wound do.
Agreed. And in a very pedantic way, taking armour saves is mentioned in the chain of events in both shooting and close combat phase separately, as if they are distinct but surprisingly identical occurrences. It's not like "here is this general principle in the game: whenever you lose a wound, take an armour save." So one could argue for difficult terrain that there are just no saves of any kind, just as there is no to-hit or to-wound roll.
@@iJasko Not pedantic, "technically correct" as we all know, the best kind of correct.
I had a very funny first game against my friend, my high elves vs his bretonnians at 1250pts. Turn 1 his trebuchet blew up, turn 2 I terror routed his peasants off the table, with my griffon, and then a fiery convication caused a unit of his knights to panic and flee through a second unit of knights and both go straight off the table as well. We both thought it was such a silly and hilarious way to start, loved it
Warhammer logic:
Dragon Breath: You get a ward save
Mount stumbles over a branch: No ward save
reward bravery, punish clumsiness. seems fair to me.
Historically accurate.
Terrain wounds, thematically, represents getting stuck in the mud, horses with twisted legs etc. They might not be dead, they just can't fight this battle
Q: Which activity is more likely to attract the protection of whatever mystic deity is looking over you? Stumbling in the woods or fighting a dragon?
1:39:10 completely agree. Learning rules is important and once you know them you can have more fun and allow others to have fun. My favourite strategy is flash cards with rules on them. It’s like learning content for an examination. Also fail to prepare. Prepare to fail.
My first game was skaven v ogres. My ratling guns were extremely strong. Poison wind mortar would have been better against humans, or goblins, but i had ogres as an opponent. What was surprising was that my stormvermin and his Iron Guts had a long and drawn out combat. We both had characters in the fight too. I even got my abomination into the rear of that combat in the second round. It was just a grinding fight because we both got a crap load of defensive buffs on our units. Eventually a bruiser, tyrant and slaughter priest were able to break my stormvermin but he chose to reform instead of pursuing. My stormvermin fell back in good order, so I was able to charge again and the game ended with him losing his bulls to ratling guns. He lost a scap launcher to jezzails. I lost the jezzails to panic from losing 1. The abomination died in the last round. But what sealed the victory for him was that he killed my BSB.
"I CAN GET YOU A TAPESTRY, BUD" MADE ME LAUGH UP MY SOUP!!
Well, my work day just got a hell of a lot more manageable. Mor bless these two bassed bois.
so Vortex are difficult terrian, so that means i can Summon my Green Knight from a Votrex template
GREAT IDEAS
@@SquareBasedOldWorld his rules outline what “natural” terrain is, which is woods, difficult and dangerous terrain as long as it doesn’t contain any buildings or walls.
Ooooooooo! 😮😆❤
Hot damn
Nah; basically, natural terrains, but your opponent must agree with the definition of them.
Ambushes were clutch! I lost to Vampire Counts but a unit of 10 ungor bow-goats and 15 gors with 2 hand weapons and the totem of rust punched well above their weight in disrupting his plans by killing a necromancer, a unit of knights and a nice sized block of skeletons. Even my lone razorgor managed to rush to hit that redirected skell unit in the rear!
The rest of my army got ground down but it was a learning experience and we both had an absolute blast.
Thank you so very much for the work you 2 put in. You've not only rekindled my love for this game but stoked the the flame to conflagration levels!
Really appreciate the discussion around counter play. I totally agree, I think it’s good to think about the game as tactics and figuring out counter play rather than just thinking things are OP right off the bat.
Some of my first experiences: Running Warriors of Chaos 1000pts. I had a big block of Chosen Warriors, a Sorcerer Lord full of buffing spells, 2 units of Marauders and 2 units of Marauder Horsemen. The game went hilariously as I realized that using Steed of Shadows on a unit in Marching Column would let them move 36 inches flying. It was also when I found out that outnumbering is actually a massive thing to turn FBIGO into a straight up Flee. Aparently chosen cannot just yolo into 10 Tomb Guard and 30 Skeleton Warriors and expect to win lol as they were forced to flee and got run down.
From another game, I learned that High Elves can plonk an Archmage on top of a Dragon and cast Walk Between Worlds to make it Ethereal.
Love this vortex-building thing, will definitely do it too. Ideally the templates should also have that central hole, though! Almost surprising that GW is missing out on selling a box with all eight vortices.
Intro “Dance Like an Egyptian” in honor of Tomb Kings.
Frenzied Nurgle? Rabies. Ludonarrative restored
THE STORY IS REAL
Wood elf vortexmancer list, all flying wizards throwing trees and things around
Is the weakness to linehammer not the overarching movement rule that prevents any model moving more than double their movement in any manoeuvre. That would severely limit any charges the line could make, as they would struggle to close the door if the line is too long.
I think the weakness is that it makes you very vulnerable to being charged by multiple units and getting double-outnumbered.
I took it that Closing the door is a free wheel , only the first wheel of a charge is considered for movement ?
@brett7773 you still can't move double your movement tho I think
@@brett7773 if your movement is 4 then you get max 8 free inches of movement, not infinite free movement.
Played 2 games, Gobbos Vs Brets and Gobbos Vs Empire.
Gobbos won both games! They die in droves and yes the basic gobbo is literally just meat speed bump, but all the wacky stuff like squigs and trolls slap hard :)
Brets felt very powerful, their heavy cavalry charges are terrifying to face off against.
Empire was interesting. State Troops are very middling, but by sigmar cannons are great. To be clear, they are not OP, they just do consistent damage against all targets.
I see a pattern with heavy infantry guard…
I saw your Rick Astley joke Val and I appreciate you.
7 games in so far. Two with Bretonnia, two with Dwarfs, three with Warriors of Chaos.
Some friends and I play every weekend here in my games room, and we’re prepping for an RTT at the end of this month. I’ve pretty much decided to bring WoC to the tournament, I’ve been having a blast playing them.
This weekend I have two more games planned. One more WoC, and another with my Night Goblins.
Also, Final Fantasy VII Rebirth is out this month. What a great start to gaming for 2024. My favourite tabletop ever comes back, along with the second part of one of my top 10 favourite video games of all time!
We are literally the same person - Rob
What sort of list do you take for WoC? I am having a hard time wrangling my collection and trying to plug holes. I also think WoC look a little boring on paper but I’m coming from 6th Ed hordes of chaos
This video made me theorize a strategy for my Empire. Instead of fielding big blocks of State Troops, you bring a modestly narrow unit and line up your Detachments even with the Regimental unit and force your opponent into Disordered Charges. What's more, if the Detachment is something like Handgunners, they still get to Stand-and-shoot.
the issue with having a modelled vortex spell is it can be fully beneath an enemy unit, they designed the rules to use the templates because the models can sit on top of it with almost no issue.
makes me sad cause i wanted to model each vortex like endless spells (still might but i'll have to bring a flat template for when it goes underneath a unit)
Haven't gotten any games in yet. Starting my Bretonnian army from scratch and I hate playing with unpainted models so I'm painting away like a madman trying to get things done so I can play. I have a couple units done so far, but I'm probably still a couple months out at least since I'm painting my knights skittle-style with their own heraldries and colors which takes me a really long time. Until then, I'm vicariously living my Old World life through various batreps on youtube. Very excited to play.
I'm painting my Brets in "lance fournies", so for each knight who has individual heraldry, I paint one peasant from each unit type in matching heraldry (to represent the men he brought) so the only single heraldry units are my reliquaes. Brets are hard to prep, but always worth the effort when you finally place them on the table.
Really looking forward to showing off my green knight who I've added glow paint flames to - blast him with a UV torch and he looks amazing
Yeah, I'm starting an Errantry army with knights all with their own heraldry. My list also has squires that I'm matching colors to their knight. I'll be ready to play a game in a couple years at my current rate.😂
Great insights. Love the crunch
I have played 4 games of TOW (2 on Warhall), and I absolutely love it!
Beastmen feel really solid, ambush with rerolls from the Beastlord are quite strong. I did have a game where my minotaurs rolled six 3s to fail to ambush until round 5, but managed to pull out the W lol.
Oh and my Ghorgon is 3-1 in monster fights!
I’ve never been so glad to be a Warhammer hoarder, I’m using my old storm of magic templates for vortexes.
My biggest take away so far is if you don't bring a level 4 or equivalent for dispels you are going to be destroyed by enemy wizards control spells.
@@Ultr4l0f You can still do that with high elves at least. They are the only ones with real dispel scrolls anymore.
Just remember, a wizard cannot dispel if they are engaged in combat. If your opponent only have a single level 4, charge that model with a cheap flyer such as an eagle, and you will have relative free reign in the magic phase
Flank attacks from light horse or chariots, with another charge to the front wrecks lines, also terrain slows it
A question that does need answer: If you charge a unit in marching column formation, and kill enough models to bring it back to as wide as it is deep - is it still in marching column?
When does it take effect?
good question, I see nothing in the rules stating you have to "change" into either formation, so I suppose it means if you lose enough models from a marching unit, that yes it would just instantly become a combat formation.
I do think they should change to range of the vortex
1:07:45 was that a hill I hear? #justiceforhills.
Great insights lads.
For your vortex/dangerous terrain spam- Wood elf spellweaver with lore familiar using high magic. Take walk between worlds for reserve move, tempest and then take tree singing from the lore of loren. Add in your free woodland at the start of the game and however many level 1/2 with tree singing you want depending how much you want to annoy your opponent
I hear some PUNKS have been playing Line Hammer, interested to hear about your experience.
Line is legal, sadly...
Yeah, this and just unit sizes/dimensions in general. Are we back to 80 model goblin tar pits again?
The line isnt hard to defeat. The specific issue with dwarf firing line is hyped up a bit- it’s problematic if you insist on “forward from the front” with zero nuance.
Terrain, flanks, flight, magic, multiple units, super speed…Theres ways.
Does it suck and annoy? Big yea.
That's where you get models that have the fly keyword and hop over the line
@@gustavgrimeit’s legal, but it also doesn’t work, so who cares?
I've gotten 3 games against the same opponent, 1k and 1.5k of lizards then 2k of beasts all vs skaven. He's still finding the useful mix of his units, but also in the limited beastmen collection I recently acquired there were 9 dragon ogres and a shaggoth that we put on the board, found that to be quite strong. At least against clanrats.
My first game was my goblins vs my buddies tomb kings. All my units were larger so fear never occurred. My troll did a little too much work by taking out their necromancer. Lots of fun. Will use more terrain next time.
My argument is that if you don't want to charge through difficult terrain, then he needs to move and position better to make sure this does not happen. I think that the person on the other end maybe positioned their unit there so that if he wanted to charge, then you're going to have to charge through difficult.
My view on charging is that you have to move in the best way possible to successfully complete the charge. If that means not making full contact by having to avoid difficult terrain, then so be it. On the other hand, if you can complete the charge in full contact only while going through dangerous terrain, then you must go through, and risk the tests.
Really exciting to hear we're getting the payoff we were hoping for. My first game should be soon, only a few skellys left to build for the house to get some starter games going.. hadn't thought about the "identifying vortexes" problem so nice to have you guys solve the problem early for me ;)
In a Beastmen vs Brettonians fight I had with a Friend, my Trebuchet actually squashed a goodly number of Cheap Beastmen and killed about twice it's points value in Beastmen. And a Grail Reliquary held the line against a block of Dragon Ogres for there rounds, the Lady was their sheild.
Bassed Brothers when do you think we’ll see a Bretonnia army guide - I can’t wait!
Episode is missing on spotify 😊
On it
Dr Luke Blaxill's ironic rage is very funny and his videos are definitely worth watching.
GW could release an errata on “unit coherency” using the logic that for a unit to maintain coherency, no model may be positioned more than X inches away from the center of the front rank (you need to hear orders, maintain morale by staying near the leader/banner/musician whatever). This would limit how wide lines may form.
Fire tornados! That'd be a great model or STL! 🔥 🌪
Vortexes drive me nuts but thats also my bad for not taking strong enough wizards to dispel them.
Rob, how'd your Dragon Ogres do? I love the heck out of them!! They're so strong!
Thunderers can take great weapons now?
Don't know if this has been covered anywhere, but, for a magical vortex "moves in a random direction " what do you do on the "hit" roll? The book kind of says the template stays in place if you are "scattering" others say follow the pip on the "hit". The book doesn't explicitly say how to work out "random movement". Same for fanatics.
On the suffers a wound thing, Eadbutt for Giants says "suffers D3+1 wounds with no armor or regen saved permitted (ward saves can be attempted as normal)" - the fact its specified suggests you wouldn't with dangerous terrain.
There's similar 'loses a wound' wording for fleeing through enemies / hand of mork / feedback scroll and none mention saves, so maybe its safe to assume you don't get any save for any!
I am absolutely going to find a miniature dominatrix boot, paint it green, and put it on a 5" template for my Foot of Gork.
Id assume (happy to be corrected!) about the wheel taking you over difficult terrain situation, that at the point of declaring and rolling charges, you’d measured your shortest route and as long as that didn’t overlap difficult terrain, you’d be good to go ahead even if the subsequent wheel took you over it - you’ve already rolled at that point!
Again, I’m a massive F’in casual, happy to be corrected!!
Cheers for your content, both of you - I’ll have to check out an event you put on!
For the record . . . . 'All about the DICE mojo!'
So cast vortex on everything with a lvl 10 wiz kid. Got it.
27:00 all great bunkers are built on hills. #justiceforhills
So with the challenge thing, I appreciate that it doesn't spell it out for people playing linehammer or more practically a unit of 5 knights that has a champion. If you decline then you have to retreat to the rear ranks. Therefor it follows that if you have no rear ranks, you can't retreat to them. I'd say that seems fair. Or to put another way if you can't get out of the fighting rank then you can't retreat from the fighting rank.
With the witch elves charging and there is terrain, it does make it clear what the rules are. If the shortest route (to maximise models) is through the terrain, then it's through terrain. If you fail as a result then too bad. But I agree with the overall point that the charger doesn't have any wiggle room in their charges like in previous editions. No matter who moves the unit, you or your opponent it should end up in the exact same place as you always move to maximise and by the shortest route.
I'd be interested in your interpretation on how ranked units charging skirmishers works. Do they move by the shortest route (as straight as possible) Do they move from centre of their unit to the closet visible (as shown in the image in the book and by the rules for directly towards on pg 92) or can you wheel to advantage like in previous editions.
Totally agree 👍🏻
One think i definitely dont need is more dice, so of course I've ordered bass blue, super stoked.
God damn right! - Val
Anyone thought that the push of the line in TOW might be to give it a more historical look?
Because that's what you get when you build units accordingly. Say 10 wide and 2 deep.
Place several of these units next to each other and you get something that looks like a real battleline
like you could have seen on a Dark Ages or Medieval battlefield. Which is really cool, I think.
They've actually shown this in some of the product pictures where armies clash and the regiments
have sizes like 10 wide and 3 deep. It looks great.
@squareBasedOldWorld Just a heads up. I don’t think you can take the chaos sorcs in a skirmishing marauder blob, as they are different troop sub-types. Ie, the sorc’s are heavy infantry and the marauders are regular infantry.
I played 2 small 500pt games. high elves vs empire and wood elves vs bretonnia. it was a lot of consulting the books and getting used to how movement works. Still. the elves felt good. Good shooting, and the spear blocks are good.
Some people who are panicking about The Line also don't understand that no model can move more than double it's move characteristic during a maneuver. I've seen people saying things like they're going to change their 30 long line into a 30 deep file and that would require the models at the end moving 30 inches which is not a legal maneuver lol. Or they're going to "reform" and turn 90 degrees meaning the outside model is moving about 15" minimum. As an example, you can at best go from 24 wide quarrelers to 12x2 quarellers (the outside models need to scoot 6 inches in to fill the front rank shortest distance they can move being directly in rather than at an angle). Faster moving units can do this better or worse but even with MV6 you can at best go from 36 wide to 12x3. Not nearly as ludicrous as some people are saying it is and requires you to be "fast as fuck boy".
models can Move 3x movement speed when in a marching column pg 101 core rules book (deeper than they are wide 4 wide x 5 long for instance) but are not allowed to charge in that column so it doesn't counter your point i am just pointing out "No Models can move more than 2x movement" is not exactly correct, All rank and file can march x3 but would have to reform to charge.
I love the historical look of the wide formations. They've shown this in the product pics where units are something like 8 wide and 3 deep.
A bunch of those next to each other look like a real battleline.
@@Jenx2092 the exact rule laid down in the errata is "no model may move more than x2 its movement unless in marching column or a dice roll allows it."
When will this episode be uploaded as a podcast? My work commute has been really boring this week.
Played some test games on the weekend. Not real games, just learning the rules and having fun.
F-ing loved it. Cannons sailing over heads, blowing up and running away. Dwarven hammerers being op. Dwarf lord with rune of smiting almost one shotting an imperial griffon. Said griffon eating up some long beards.
Skaven... Sucking hahaha. Was just so much fun.
I’ve dug out my old ‘Vortex Grenade’ Template from 40k 2nd Ed to use as a Vortex. Should be appropriately triggering for anyone of a certain vintage.
11 months late but here's my experience! I was playing a game of 40K against a friendly stranger and brought up The Old World to him (cuz I'm based) Apparently he had 3-4 fantasy armies collecting dust, and I had just impulse purchased a Bretonnia army. I haven't played a game of 40K since!
We have played a few matches against his Dwarves, Ogres, and Orcs. I thought I stood a chance in the first game by chasing his Dwarves off his board edge but that was delusion speaking. Got my ass shot and kicked in that order xD
I got completely stomped. It was fun.
Learning this many new rules makes my head hurt. My head literally hurts right now.
But you know who else's head hurts? The elf upon whose head I dropped a pigeon bomb. :)
Haven't quite gotten to play yet, but I've sat on the side of a couple of games and helped with searching the rulebook, as I read the whole thing last week. I'm very excited to play a couple of 1k point games myself, then I can move up to 2k.
Just wanted to add, I am not sure if a chaos sorcerer can go in a skirmishing unit of marauders because they are a different unit type. The marauders are regular infantry while the sorcerer is heavy infantry. Minor rules thing but hope that helps (also correct me if I'm wrong please!).
Edit. You are correct. Heavy infantry character cannot join a regular infantry skirmishing unit. Just looked it up in the rulebook. Page 185, final paragraph
Val was just measuring the funk levels with the calipers
In the middle of turning my Balewind Vortex into a Lizardmen Pillar of Fire!
The best faction to maximise Vortices is Wood Elves. Sisters of Thorn can pick their spells...
Please do a Dwarf breakdown next!
Just ordered some of the dice, they look awesome. Went with the blue to match my high elves. They are currently on "pre order". Do you know when they will be fully released?
Most of this discussion is probably focused on organized play situations. That’s where you really have to have a pretty tight and well understood rule set. Why? Because you ARE going to come up against “that guy”. In a casual play situation, then you’re almost into the Pirates of the Caribbean zone, where the rules are more guidelines. But as Val said, learning games between experienced players are also a good place to take your time and try to figure out “the right way”.
I agree with Rob that losing a wound is not the same as being wounded ergo no saves but for now I think it's best to play with saves until a much needed faq is added. I also love this shit Val :) On that note fyi Vortices and Vortexes are both correct ways of saying the plural :) Amazing video, one of the best yet!
DICE. Everyone loves dice.
I think there will be a case for unusually wide single rank units. Especially high quality troops. I don't think it will be standard though. I can see multi charging a wide unit an easy way to make it disappear. Deploying like this will require some thinking and careful management. Which alone means it's unlikely to be OP.
Is this coming out as a podcast guys?
Hey, im not convinced about the legitimacy of Refuse a Challenge and scoot to another part of the single rank by the Unit Champion.
Nice discussion. You guys are great!
Lose wound is no save in my books, building it off an understanding of "general game language"; wherever rules state something looses wound, there is no save (iirc Horus Heresy has the same). There is the significant difference to what Val quoted and I just re-read in 8th edition core book - there the model suffers a wound. Again, standard game language, if you suffer a wound, you get some/all saves depending on circumstance.
I mean sure... but the rule is still written as a riddle rather than with clarity
@@SquareBasedOldWorld I really do disagree here. I as well think that no rulebook can be written with full clarity unless you want to have rulebook of 200+ rules pages (like for example MtG). Because no matter what you clarify, the community once the game is published will find new loopholes/inconsistencies; same goes to things that were not mentioned in the rules like for example the fighting rank because just as you explained, I do not think playtesters/designers looked for that specific way to break the game.
While the rulebook has plenty of gaps that could be game critical or are simply oversight - the full rank fight (more from immersion experience than being too strong) and Drilled redressing before charge move Y/N, for me the difference between game language of suffered vs lost (as well referencing other GW games or other games in general) is pretty clear.
Instead of assuming people can understand it off "general game language", the rulebook should be clear as to what this general game language is. Maybe state the difference between losing a wound, suffering a wound, taking a wound, etc explicity. Should only be a single paragraph and solves every single one of these issues.
@@Mellowliciously Then I have better answer for you, having now re-read and searched the rulebook for all Armour instances.
All instances of armour saves or ward saves or regenerations are explicitly stated in the rules either in Shooting or Combat resolution with "your opponent can make an Armour Save roll for each wound caused by your attacks." and additonally some spells call out no armour save permitted. Therefore still keeping in line with the explicit wording that you "your opponent can make an Armour Save roll for each wound caused by your attacks"
I have loved playing my Beastmen so far and ambushing Minotaurs are such a threat!!
In my last game my unit of Bestigor which included a Wargor and Great Bray Shaman were in combat with a Skaven Abomination. The Great Bray Shaman cast Mantle of Ghorok gaining 5 attacks and strength and killed the Abomination…. The Abomination then fell over and killed my remaining Bestigor 🙃🤣. This is the exact reason I loved Warhammer Fantasy and it’s great to see that randomness come back !!
Maximum vortex = welfs.
They're the only faction that can guarantee a vortex (Tree Singing) on every caster without spending points on lore familiars.
Best things about TOW: Step Up is gone (dead men don't fight). Less static combat (falling back, etc.). The Square Based podcast (keep those overviews coming, they're fantastic). Bigger bases (whaaaat? yes, I said it, I actually really like 30mm bases for my Warriors of Chaos).
Worst things about TOW: Empty shelves (come on GW, you're breaking my heart). Unlimited "Fighting Rank" bonus attacks (seems a little weird to me, should have just been capped at max 1 or 2 per side, perhaps 3 for Skirmishers to symbolize their agility). Magic (I don't hate it and I'm sure it'll just take some getting used to, but I kinda miss the little meta game of dice pool economy. Whatever, it's fine).
Overall: Very happy with the game!
Unit size and coherency rules inbound for ToW? A La AoS and 40k?
What’s to stop me from taking “units” of one Dwarf Warrior in order to spam Longbeards?
I think in the case where following the shortest path would block the charge, you should take that path anyway, and simply count it as a disordered charge. To represent the loss of momentum of having to cross difficult terrain. Because taking the longer route seems to easy to exploit for your own benefit
Unless you want to FAQ the rules to let you charge however you want, which is probably a nightmare 😊
Hey, im in Nottingham. How do we get a game?
i love dice, selling out, send me dice
also wait how do you find war haul? i tried looking for it and all i got was google insisting i meant to search for "andy warhol warhammer fantasy"
I think mounted wizards will be super powerful against vortexes. I plan on taking 2 orc shamans on boars
I guess frenzied Nurgle is rabies?
Val needs a ramp and smoke machines for these openings.
I really like the ability for everyone in the front rank to make supporting attacks, but I think it needs some kind of a limit and I have a very simple solution. A model should never be able to make a supporting attack if the target unit is more than its movement characteristic away from it. This way a line of say 10 orcs could charge into a lone character and maybe 7 of them get to fight but not all 10
Why have some models min and max sizes they can chose from?
Finally! I've been having SBW (Square-Based Withdrawal). You guys spoiled us with a flurry of clips back at launch, so this drought the past few days has been hard to adjust to.
We are back
Had a few games as Empire, against my mate with his skaven at 1k,1.5,2k, any tips to help skaven with low leadership issues? Empire feel solid, Outriders have been MVP, Grand Master on Demigryph with all the trimmings also slaps.
Am pretty certain, if it doesn't say "no armour saves or ward saves", then armour saves are allowed.
I've played two games so far. Really enjoyable. A Black Orc Warboss, kitted out, on a Wyvern is a real threat and 10xThunderers with Great Weapons in a line are pretty nice too. I'm still getting the hang of magic but the magic missiles were pretty underwhelming for me too although some buff spells are really nice. Overall I'm really enjoying Old World right now. Great to hear your thoughts too :)
So great to hear your experiences, and comforting to know you struggle with the rules depth and complexity too. I wonder if an LLM chatGPT4 rules app would be useful or if anyone is working on thinking about?
I'm enjoying the depth and customization in list building but worry the gameplay experience could be too much rules referencing and lawyering, which killed older editions of 40k adn WHFB for me. But, it could also be consistent with overall play experience, where the rules bog of warhammer TOW sort of parallels fog of war and getting crunchy within the back and forth momentum of combat resolutions over multiple turns. Thanks guys!
1:43:45 absolutely, you guys make great content, take your time, do them well, we’ll wait! 🙌❤
Do NOT charge units in the Front, it's unlikely you will break them or cut them down lol
Arc of sight tool fan dance intro?
Not sure if this will get picked up - but I’m a patreon but can’t find the discord link? Also when is your next show?!
ill check for you later!! so sorry thats happened