Is "Green Tip" Inaccurate?
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- In this informative video, Reid Henrichs of Valor Ridge discusses the myth of inaccuracy from green tip. Solid groups are possible using proper fundamentals, technique, and consistent practice.
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Reid I would like you to talk about your experience with how well green tip stops a threat. Obviously shot placement is the number 1 factor but you hear about it going through a person and not doing hardly any damage I just want to know your opinion
It's bin good
it's the Indian not the arrow
Love that the video length is 5:56
Personally ,had I made the video it would have lasted 7:62
@@markwhite6782I'll Back that Play, Good Sir 😉....
This is the way.
U.S. Marine here and we have been so spoiled in the civilian community with 1 MOA Rifles and Ammo that we think that’s the standard now. I love my civilian stuff but I’m perfectly happy with my military issued equipment! Semper Fi!!!
Like Sean Ryan says, 36-yard zero puts you into a 6" circle ( size of a CD) out to 300 yards...what's not to like? Semper Fi
Your zero has nothing to do with rifle or bullet accuracy.
@@Christopher-qj7kmIt gives insight into the expected level of accuracy.
Thank you for your service, sir!
Had no complaints about 'the tools' I was issued either.
_Could_ 855 be more lethal? Sure, but I wouldn't be willing to give up its other attributes.
If I were being deployed I'd have at least a hundred "concerns" more pressing than whether or not green tips are accurate.
😅 you mean dying for Israel is America fights Israel's wars
The fact that you've picked a side shows idiocy. @@deathlarsen7502
@@deathlarsen7502exactly 💯
@@deathlarsen7502 stop noticing
@@deathlarsen7502Another ham lover and pro Palestine ✌🏽🌈 🎊... God Bless you sand ostrich! 🎊
Video length is 5.56, awesome :)
He could have gotten it all in by 2:23 though.
@@markwhite6782good one!!!
@@markwhite6782😅
Good catch. Perfection.
Great information and demonstration!
Even more ridiculous are some of the claims and concerns about pistol and ammo "accuracy," especially when it comes from relatively inexperienced shooters.
There are about a thousand reasons why one can easily be "inaccurate" with a handgun before he starts blaming his ammo or gun.
Little did I know that back in the day, I should have been blaming the "inaccurate basketball" when I missed hitting the basket. :-)
Howdy! Love both of your channels!
I appreciate that the length of this video is 5:56. Nice.
It might not be the most accurate stuff, but that is far different than "inaccurate." Accuracy is relative to the intend purpose, and for a fighting rifle, the M855 is certainly adequate.
I remember one really fun drill we ran at a range on Pendleton was a dueling tree with the 4 inch plates set up at 200 yards. It was a confidence booster knowing you could get routine, fast, repeated hits on these plates with our standard equipment; M16A4, RCO, and M855.
In three deployments, I had very few complaints with any of my issued gear. Generally, if you did your job, the rifle and ammo would do its job. Any time a job wasn't getting done, it was most prudent to critique the Indian, not the arrow.
Always been a firm believer that MOST firearms (and ammo) will shoot better than MOST of us!
(Not inferring we should run subpar equipment)
Another saying that ppl keep regurgitating...that is not true unless you are totally not familiar w shooting.. if I make a good trigger pull and one round hits left then I make another good pull and it hits 2 inches high right the rifle is not more accurate than me...physics get involved as well when things start to heat up...unless you're shooting a laser beam
@@Gmny1MOA
If your looking to argue, bring your gear & meet me at the range. I’m in SW PA.
@@Gmny1MOAnot at ALL a saying that is regurgitated and not true. They’re not saying you’re not able to out shoot a 3 minute rifle in the prone with a bipod and a sand bag.
Real world, you holding 3 minutes in your kneeling position? Repeatable 6” group at 200? What about 4 minutes? Do you actually know?
Just some considerations. Of course a 1 minute gun will take some of the “spread potential” in your group down from readily available field firing positions, but putting in the reps and sets with your kit will give you genuine real world performance gains much more than a match barrel, free float handguard or match ammunition.
Once you can maximize this returns the other stuff is a cherry on top, or a bag gun (like a precision rifle you will shoot from a bag, not a pdw lol) where you’re stable enough to actually recognize those benefits.
Your right on
I guarantee that’s my case!
I can't believe how quick the time has passed. I remember when you started this channel.
While I was serving with the Marine Security force battalion, I got the opportunity to attend coaches course.
During the course our instructor (a Gunnery Sergeant ) took us out to the 1,000 Yard/Meter? range. With our M16A2’s, a cotton web sling, a work glove, and M855 with a magazine of 10 rounds. I hit the standard USMC 500 Yard qual target 7 out of 10 times.
I couldn’t Believe I could do it. I had to run the rear sight up to the 800 meter setting + 3 or 4 clicks until it bottomed out, then as my lungs exhaled, I squeezed the trigger, as my front sight post fell even with the top of the target frame, I broke each shot. Granted the bullets were hitting the target sideways because it was way beyond the max effective range of the system.
He wanted to prove to us that the M16A2 was the best service rifle in the world and he did.
Did you attend at Quantico VA? That's where I did PMI school.
Finally, someone with authority proves what I have always known. I was issued an M16A2 with green tip in 1991 at MCRD San Diego. If you did your job, you would hit the target at 500 meters in the prone at Edson Range. I'm not sure what MOA it was, but I dont care. If green tip was inaccurate, you couldn't do that. Especially since the front sight tip was twice the width of the target at that range. I was a believer back then as I am now. Green tip (M855) is good to go.
MCRD San Diego plt 3047 1991! Semper Fi.
@@tims6212
RTC Orlando USN 1982
MCRD Parris Island plt 1064 1995
@@rdsii64LTC Chicago URP 2006
MHEG Honolulu 2006-2009
I went to MCRD San Diego (Hollywood Marines) in 1995. (((OOH-RAH)))
I'm an accuracy guy, but you're absolutely correct. We need to step back and realize for " gunfighting " punching moa ( generally proned out and bagged up or off the bench)is not necessary.
I served for 20 years in the USMC and then in counter-terror teams as a civilian. We never had issues with the green tips. My current SIG rifle eats everything I load! It may be the shooter!
So did I and so I have a question for you. We are going out to the KD range and you have a choice. M855 green tip or standard M193? Are you gonna pick M855 at the 500?
Generally is
Totally agree. 9” at 300 is totally acceptable but then it’s 12” at 400 and 15” at 500. Course that’s for a 16” barrel. Don’t know why anyone would be shooting further than 300 with a 14.5 and expect an effective hit.
I mean, I wouldn't want to be downrange with someone shooting at me with a 14.5 inch barrel.
Those of us who have nice ammo stacked up expect an effective hit past 300 lol just saying
I had a first round impact on an IPSC C zone plate at 866 yards this afternoon with IMI 77 gr from a 16" barrel. It's not a bull barrel either, standard weight JP barrel. The AR is extremely capable, I think we should use every bit of it.
Because 400m isnt hard with a decent optic, marksmanship and ammo. That will easily allow you to outrange most infantry and most shooters in general if these comments are anything to go by.
Think of ambushes on highways, Right of ways, large junctions, city blocks, thoroughfares, etc. 400m should be well within the purview of the prepared citizen.
Train more so that you can realize the value of modern rifles and ammo
@@CallofWar5 - you’re right but I’m wondering if you missed my point. If you’re worried about targets past 300 then maybe you should consider a better selection. If you know you may have targets at 500 are you going to select ammo that you know has a PE/group/beaten zone of 9 inches at 500 even though you have a scope and you do everything perfectly? Even better, use a sled and your group is still going to be 9 inches or more. If you’re OK with that, fine. If not you may want to consider a different cartridge.
Green tip is good for military applications if you’re fighting near peer. It does punch holes through people though and doesnt do as much damage as mk262 or even m193 on soft targets. It is better at going through cars and light barriers and will def still kill.
Greetings from Louisiana! Thanks for this video, brother. One day, I hope to train with you.
Thank you for this video! I personally think green tip is a PSYOP... Remembering between 2012-2015 the gov was trying to ban green tip. "Now it sucks" honestly we are at the point of ammo shaming dudes at the range for having green tip. People hate green tip for the same reason people hate the SCAR 16/17. Because they herd it sucks. You never used it in duty how do you know it sucks? Its always the same reasons its sucks too. We need to stop regurgitating info we get off social media platforms. Dudes go out and get your own data. Dont be afraid to be the only one in the room to say, "You sure about that?"
'Mil-spec' for an M4 rifle is 4 MOA. Your testing is well within that. I feel confident in the performance m855.
As a subscriber and an old guy that qualified on the M1 Garand, I thank you for this great video and the reassurance that "it's okay to use green tip". Personally, my experiences with green tip have been very good. But I would be a lot happier with your groups .......... old eyes are really a handicap.
The terminal performance of this ammo is a different conversation.
Thank you, Sir! That REALLY needed to be said. And Colts as the delivery system was icing on the cake.
Colts have been junk for 20 years
When I was sitting on the firing line at Parris Island, we were shooting the 55gr rounds from the M16A1. I seriously don't know how some guys barely qualified as Marksman after the time we spent on the range. To this day, I still lean more towards the basic shooting positions, and when using a shooting bench, I am not likely to be using any type of support. After all, you don't have shooting bags, and bipods for your carry rifle anyway. Funny thing is, I don't own any ammo in 5.56 that isn't plain old 55gr, or 62gr green tip.
Shot PMC green tips out to 650 consistently yesterday doing ladder drills. People will make every excuse to suck.
In 2009 before going to Afghanistan as an Infantry Squad Leader, we shot our stnd M4s equipped with an ACOG shooting M855 on a KD out to 700m with surprising results. The rounds missing the target were usually close enough to either keep someone pinned down or alter their decision making processes to maybe encourage them to break contact or get smoked once they got a bit closer, lol. I can tell you from personal experience, M855 will … stop the threat inside 50m. People need to be as fixated on making hits as they are on ammo selection, over penetration etc. While those are viable concerns under some circumstances, IMHO, people place too much emphasis on it. I do have a box or two of M855 laying around, but prefer Federal T3 from an 11.5 barrel for vehicle/hotel/home/bicycle etc. defense and 77 OTM for most everything else defensive.
An ar for "bicycle defense"? That'd be interesting to see on the street.
@@JoshBenware I carry a
10mm AIWB, but have taken my pack on trail rides. Inside my pack is an 11.5 build.
@johnw4999 oh, I thought you meant riding down the street on a bicycle with an AR slung over your shoulder...wasn't against it, just would look interesting to see that
Excellent video, sir. Thanks for sharing your expereince.
Well. 68 year old citizen here.
Most of my life I shot pistols and shotguns. Until 2012 the only rifle I had is my Winchester 94 in 22mag.
So I bought a rifle for defense. So I could reach out a little further.
My first thought was that I wanted a bolt in .308... so I could reach way out. Beyond 300 yes. With a nice scope.
But I realized here in jersistan there's no place I could train with it. And ammo was more expensive.
So I bought an AR 15. Put a Leupold VX 1 to 6... with duplex fire dot.
I can hit a pie plate at any distance I can shoot the gun.
I shoot U.S. made Lake City or comparable. Whatever I can buy cheap. Have a roughly 36 yd zero...
I can hit pie plates...
Don't need head shots on squerrels....
Might need lots of cheap ammo though...
Because... might not be able to buy any...particularly when it's needed most...
So... Im happy hitting pie plates as near or far as I can see.
In jersistan...
Might think differently if I was in Utah.
Shout out from another 68 year old! Great video! Going to show this to my daughter! Just had her out at the short range today showing her the fundamentals of the AR.. first timer. Within about half an hour she was shooting 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yds.. not a liflelong shooter at all. Most of my guns now are accurate within 1 MOO, Minute Of Operator.... depends on how well rested my eyes are and if I drank too much coffee in the morning.
Sir bulk XM193 the least expensive 55 grain FMJ will serve you well. Reid has a video from long ago on it.
I hear you on the coffee.
Forgot to mention... my wife can put most of 10 into a dot the size of a silver dollar at 100 yds.
Of course... all this is without rushing... and with no one shooting back.
@@charlesmckinley29 yup. Almost all my ammo is XM 193 and 855. I do have some .223...
As a reloader I've shot factory green tip and with a good barrel I think you can expect about 1.5 - 2" MOA. However, I've also shot some IMI and it tends to be more accurate in my guns than when I shoot say, PMC. And as far as terminal performance, yes green tip will get it done but there are better options out there for defensive ammo. Just because the military uses it, doesn't mean you should. You have better options.
Great advice
I also want to mention that since money is hard these days due to inflation, it CAN be difficult for allot of people out there working an honest job to buy different loads of ammo to see if its right for their weapon, you can contact the manufacture who made the gun that you own and ask what load they may recommend that would work best for that weapon. It doesn't hurt to call and ask questions.
Thank you for your honesty and no bs teaching
The only time I have had Green Tips shoot horrible was from worn out barrels. I have taken those firearms and ONLY changed the barrels, same bolts, bolt carriers and the weapons shot sub 2" groups. Is it the best stuff out there, not even close but if it's all you have and your barrel isn't toast it will serve you just fine.
Sadly those enlisting so honorable but the system is against you. Say NO to high heels.
One reason it gets a bad rap is that much of what Lake City has sold on the commercial market over the years are lots that failed to meet the standards required by the military. It could be for missing sealant, slightly corroded and/or dented up cases, failing accuracy or velocity tests, etc. The SS109 are multiple-component projectiles, and accuracy suffers if the finished product isn't perfectly concentric. I still have 150 round boxes of loose American Eagle XM855 I bought back in 2013 when times were rough during the Barrack Osama years. It has all of the above defects and groups like utter dog Shiite, no matter what you shoot it through. I get better groups from 00 buckshot at 25 yards. If you have real military-issued M855 and not a dubious lot of commercial "XM855" rejects, it will always perform as well as your results.
Man sized targets. Thats the goal. I recall an M1 Garand I got from CMP. I used Greek surplus 30-06, @100yds with ofcourse open sights. Shot .62 inch 5 shot group in Feb 30 degree weather. Surplus is fine.
Thank you for pointing out, that guns will like certain ammo, weight and velocity.
yeah barrel twist matters, if you have a 1:7 55 grain is the least ideal...77 is most ideal.
As usual the majority of internet information is posted... By people who don't know what they're talking about... That's why I love to listen to an expert like yourself ..
Exactly. My motto is if you have an opinion to tell me about something it js most likely wrong. Hasn't failed me yet. I don't take advice from a plumber when I want to know stuff an electrician would know.
The problem is that people always act like they’re sharpshooters 62 grain green tip this and 55 grain ball ammo that. Most people can’t shoot past 25 yards accurately Including the sh1te talkers. Those are the same people that own a $2500 AR but suck at hitting even at 10 yards
Newly produced Winchester (LC) green tip is surprisingly accurate. The stuff was 4-5 MOA back when Federal ran LC. I don't know what Winchester is doing, but they're doing it right. 🤠
The 193 they are producing is solid as well.
My ADHD was kicking in killing me through the whole video waiting for you to mention the twist rates of the barrel.. the one factor that makes the biggest difference with this round being accurate. I can't believe you didn't mention it
I think all colts are 1/7 twist
He covers twist rates in another video and bullet weights that work with each
Thanks for the informative video. Glad to get an expert’s viewpoint since I have a few rounds of this caliber.
Been watching you since old days with James lolz
Keep putting out good stuff Reid, maybe podcast collabs with people you come across.
People like learning from experience/stories. It adds great value; communication is even more important in this social media age nowadays!
I’ve heard that the steel core inside the bullet can be off-center just a bit so that as the bullet is spinning, it creates a vibration that can lead to the bullet moving off target. Whether or not, that’s true, has never stopped me from using the green tip exclusively in my carry magazines and weapons. I’ve also seen when I shoot at half inch thick mild steel with regular 5.56 ammunition it just creates a crater in the steel. When I shoot it with the green tip ammunition, it creates the same crater only that there is a small exit out the back of the steel plate where the steel core kept going And penetrated through. I would rather have that capability in my arsenal, even if it were slightly less accurate just in case I’ve ever got to shoot at anything blue, and made of steel.
The consistency between each of those Colt rifles was also very informative!
Thanks for the info Reid. I just picked up several boxes of M855 earlier today. It’s great to see those tight groups.
Great teacher and problem solver. God Bless this man.
Found your channel through CSATway, not disappointed at all.
I Have A Magazine Full Of Green Tips That I Call My "Oh Shit Mag", Because If I Have To Use That Magazine Then I'm In Deep Shit.
Green tip is all I carry. In my line of work I've put thousands upon thousands of green tips down range. It has never failed me
Noice! I have a green tip n red tip mix mag. I call it my last ditch/ Xmas mag. 😁🫡👍
All I run is green tip. Think I may go back to M193 when I run out.
@@brockbowen2428mixing ammo in your mag is goofy
If you have to use that “Oh Shit Mag”, you’re going to want way more than 1 mag. Rookie numbers my friend.
I've heard all the comments about 855 ammo, but I can get decent groups at 100 yards with my tired old eyes and a cheap red dot. I run the PMC 62 grain 5.56.
Never had trouble hitting steel at 300 yds using irons with green tip.
I don't use it in a 1 in 12 twist rate barrel but any other it performs just fine as you demonstrated.
Good solid training in marksmanship wins in the end.
I have heard that BS and never gave it much credence.
My old Colt 6920 could shoot 1.25” 5-shot groups at 100yds with Federal green tip. The Geissele trigger helped.
If you want sub moa potential out of a fighting rifle use mk 262...m855 is good enough for everything else as is m193 ( my personal go to for anything not dmr )
I think the green tip sucks mantra is more due to unreliable fragmentation at distance from an m4 vs an a2 or a4 20" rifle
Almost served veteran here (as my buddies all call me) I shot green tip for the second day of a rifle class Tremis was teaching. I was hitting steel at 100 when I used fundamentals. I think it was 10x12? Anyways, proper training and practice will make you a better shooter. Keep up the good videos bro!
You’ve missed the point, IMO. The question is not “is green tip accurate at 300 yards or less” because it is. The question is “is green tip accurate at 400 or 500 yards?” So you’re in the prone shooting green tip at 500 and you know that even if you do everything perfect your PE, or beaten zone, or group is going to be about 9 inches. Are you going to choose green tip when you know that even though you do everything perfectly you can still miss the center of the target by 9 inches? So I get it. How many people are gonna shoot at 500? But that’s where the controversy originated.
@@HWG-wm8ld at 100 yards? Really? I’ve been doing it for over a decade. And I haven’t died yet lol
I run a 6920 with the front sight post and carry handle iron rear sights. The green tips are always good to go in my rifle.
I’ve never had a accuracy issue with XM855. The only concerns I’ve heard were problems with terminal performance. Most of those I believe came from Somalia, the issue being the targets lacked mass and bullets passed through without tumbling. I have no idea how true this is personally. I’ve also seen ballistics gel test where XM855 seemed to perform as well as or better than XM193. I’d be interested in hearing anyone’s real world experience.
Most ammo and rifles will outshoot the shooter and most of the time if people complain about accuracy it's because they can't run a rifle correctly. How often I see people shooting an AR at 25 yards tells me all I need to know. Good video Reid!
Part of the issue is pop-up target ranges are not maintained. Same ammo, same rifles on paper or steel at the same distances restore confidence pretty quickly… And then some. I personally like M855.
A few years ago at my local range I was shooting my pencil barrel carbine with a 4moa Aimpoint T1. I was sighting it in at 100, when one of our local PRS shooters showed up. He was setting up, looked down his scope and commented about how my group was horrible. I was a little perplexed, so I went down to look at the group. It was ~2.5-3.5 inches. I went back and hit 5/5 on the 300 yard steel IPSC silhouette. I commented to him, “Seems accurate enough to me.”
Green tips are plenty accurate !!!
Well I've put many greentips through a 2-3 moa funnel at 1km at my leisure (2-3 moa is about a 2'-3' thick line of fire at 1km/1100ish yards give or take, also a ridiculously ineffective distance for greentips) so I can't say they're NOT accurate.
Some people will develop prejudice towards certain ammo after shooting it once, out of one rifle. Then carry that "information" with them for years.
4:00 always a flyer
Love the common sense approach to settle myths out there. I prefer green tip in my custom rifle and standard 5.56 in my M&P. Different rifle different results. Great video.
Without even watching…..no. Marine Corps veteran. I could hit the 500m target at least 9/10 times if not 10/10 every single time I went to the range and a lot of the times even hitting the shot marker. Both from a 20” barrel and the shorter 16” inch barrel.
@@stevexracer4309odds are it was an A2 with 1:7. I think only the A1 has the slow twist rate
If the core isn't perfectly center then inaccuracies can and will occur. Which can happen in anything mass produced. So maybe that 1/10 was due to that. Like many things the inaccurate rumor gets told and retold. Till the real life game of telephone morphs it into M855 is just an inaccurate round altogether. I can remember pull 10/10 back at the 500 on several quals. But I can also remember getting an unexplained flier every once and a great while.
I was in 99-09. It was an FN A2 20inch, iron sights only and then the last rifle was a colt 16inch with ACOG. They were probably 1:7 or 1:8 twist.
Currently run a MK18 clone, 10.5 inch with sure fire SB2 suppressor and M855 rounds.
I would agree. I shoot PMC X-Tac Green Tip and out of 5 shots (I realize it's not that much) I clocked 27 ES and 10 SD and sub 1.5" group out of my 16". Pretty incredible from factory loads.
I've had similar experiences.
2 MOA without a sled with multiple platforms.
I like my m855. I've gone through many different brands loads tips casings, all would occasionally have an issue between any of my ars. My m855 hasn't ever failed to go bang and if there's another one there, it also will go bang
Haha 5:56. I see what you did there.
Good eye!
My woman's tired of me reminding her it's 5.56 pm
Hahaha. Good eye bro. lol 😂
Came to say this as well.
My clock always reminds me. Alot of calibers too.
So true… it’s all about the fundamentals. Thanks for the great vid!
Great video. My shtf ammo stock is mostly green tip
Military has made the switch over to the M855a1 "EPR" enhanced performance round now. It's a much flatter shooting round with a lot better ballistics in terms of grouping and reliability. Has a tungstan core so it will absolutley destroy your steel targets and start scouring away at your feedramps if you don't use the improved mag that is designed for it. Downside is the BDC in an ACOG was set up for 855 so it's now a bit 'off'. On greentips, I shoot 'em more than anything else and have gotten myself dialed in pretty well. Not going to try a National Match with them or nothing, but they work well for training.
I was a designated marksman and we were only issued green tips. Regular riflemen got the regular ammo. Never had any issues with accuracy, even up to 500m
I find the issue to be that people getting their information from the internet think it's either the best or the worst. When really it's in the middle. My experience shooting it has been similar.
Well done sir!👍
There's an old saying about accuracy. "It's the Indian, not the arrow. " .
I'm in my mid 70s now. Mainly use pistol caliber leverguns because I just like em. However, I'm an old soldier who used a M14 in combat long ago. And now, decades later, I still shoot with open sights. After cataract surgery in both eyes two years ago, my distance vision is flawless. But two feet in front of me, things are blurred, thus scopes and dots are useless. My only MSR is a plain jane 16" M4 clone with the f2 gasblock front sight and a carry handle rear. And I regularly out shoot my neighbors with their $2,000 tricked out AR's when we all gather for community shoots at one of our personal ranges on our places out in the country. One uses "match grade " ammo, huge scope, bipod, and all sorts of stuff. He gets around 3" to 4" groups. I shoot a standard 55gr FMJ handload I've been loading for years. Iron Sights zeroed for 200m, I aim 2" low at 100m, and often get an X or two with five round group. He said it was my ammo. So I gave him 10 rounds of my loads to him to try and he got the same results. I just told him it's the Indian, not the arrow😏
When I was living in Coalinga going to the club I couldn't even see a pie plate at 1000yrds let alone hit it with iron sights, lol!
Subbed and bell rang... Still didn't get a notification... I had to check the channel.
Every box i have ever seen has greatly inconsistent crimps on the bullet. Some seated deep enough to not see the canalure, some have the entire canalure exposed. Gonna make a huge difference
Dinner plate is always my field of reference I always use as well.
Lol, I was slapping steel at 600 yards with irons on my AR15 A4 with green tip last week. And yes It was prone unsupported.
All of my rifles shoot green tip at 5/8th MOA or better. I hit 80% of the time at 700y with green tip ammo. M855 is absolutely great.
Green tip , getter Done , it tends to be a rather destructive round as well !
Now I Know Great Video .IIt would not have mattered as Much as The Pop Up Targets at Fort Knox The POP ups had wholes at center mass bigger than a softball , This was 1970 Being a HillBilly never owned a scope Like Iron sights and somehow I shot at Top L_R Bottom L_R Corners and Scored well ,The Never ever Hunted anything ,I felt sorry ,I Do Hope they take it More Serious ? Anyone Who ever did guard ! around The vault Never had ammo .
I still remember the Marine Corp 40 years ago, 500 yards, open sights, 20m inch barrel. Anything less than expert was a non qualification. The Army was more complicated with miniature targets at a shorter distance, but still the same ideal.
Stable shooting positions are as much related to accurate riflemanship as the rifle and ammunition themselves. I like that you’re demonstrating with iron sights - becoming very much a lost skill set.
"Accuracy" is dependent on intended use.
A battle rifle is expected to put a round on the upper torso of an adversary at [such a distance]. According to several articles from 'military and police' type outlets (reading magazines and such) it seems the Army expects a soldier to make some number of hits out of 40 total shots attempted; at ranges out to 300 meters. I could not find on line a definite 'course of fire' and no description of the target used on line. It seems to be rather similar to the current IPSC or USPPC 'squared' profile. That measures out to 18 inches wide and 23.75 inches high (without the 'head').
Maximum being 300 meters, that is roughly 328 yards. So if all hits are on the target, that would restrict the impact area to a circle of 18 inches diameter. One minute of angle is 3.44 inches at 328 yards. Therefore, 18 inches at 300 meters results in an MOA of 5.23. Ammunition shooting a group of 5 MOA will fit neatly into a 18 inch diameter circle (all over the 18 inch circle but within). Feel free to look it up and do the math yourself. I did round off numbers a bit. Just to be complete, 5.23 MOA at 100 meters is essentially 6 inches. Not all that inspiring.
However, this group size is needed to fit the requirements of "general combat". The group size MOA requirement to shoot squirrels at the same range would be much tighter. Shooting targets on the old NRA 'High Power Rifle' match required roughly 6 minutes of angle. The 200 yard target had an "X" ring of 12 inches, the 300 yard target "X" ring was 18 inches and the 600 yard target "X" ring was 36 inches in diameter. (If it's gone to metric, I don't know off hand, but the size is essentially the same.)
Benchrest shooters tend to have winning group sizes in the less than .25 inch size. Probably less than that as it's been - ahem - a 'few' years for me. Winners shoot sub .10 inch (one tenth of an inch) groups - and better.
The sum of what I am conveying is 'accuracy' depends on the target involved. Not everything - hostile soldiers, hostile thugs, deer, moose, squirrels, bunnies, Necco wafers - require the same degree of accuracy. Do some thinking about the purpose you intend for your rifle (or firearm) and set goals accordingly. One size does not fit all.
Only issue we had with M855 in Afghanistan was a tendency to icepick at CQB ranges...which was a tiny % of the encounters in our AO. 🤷
Genuine question- What does it mean for a projectile to “icepick” ?
@@colestooksbury The round just goes straight through without any expansion or fragmentation, leaving a 5.56mm hole all the way through, like you stabbed your target with an icepick.
@@colestooksburythanks for asking I was curious myself and two the veteran in response thank you for your service and for clearing up the term ice picking.
It's cool to see people asking questions to learn and answers being given without a snarky attitude. We can only benefit from a willingness to learn from those who have experience, and those with experience being willing to share it.
That’s an interesting observation. What they found, specifically in Afghanistan was the effect of shorter barrels on targets 150 yards + …was the velocity was too low to cause that permanent cavitation. Plus the bodies of the average combatants were a lot smaller and had much less mass to help the desired terminal ballistics occur. They were too skinny. So, these rounds zipping along at-I’m gonna guess because I don’t remember the fps at 150 yards-maybe 1900 fps were doing exactly what you described…just punching 5.56mm holes. The study stated that if they had just a few hundred fore fps, then the cavitation and therefore stopping power would have been much greater.
I know I’m being long winded, sorry. Interesting topic though.
But who knows..maybe even out of a 20” barrel and close to 3000fps, most of these talib bodies may be too skinny to offer enough of a medium for desired terminal ballistics. There’s a lot more medium in a 220 lb body then a squirrelly 130 lb one. A full size American body may offer around 12 inches or more of body for a round to do its work where a talib possibly only 8 inches or so. You can see what I mean when you watch a decent video using ballistic gel tests.
Anyway point being, higher velocity is always more desirable for terminal effects. Sometimes it’s the target itself that doesn’t lend itself to being as effected as another one.
Sorry for the long winded comment.
Thank you for this because I hear this all the time about Green Tips aren’t any good. BS. Like you said it’s the riflemen
Green tip ammo shoots just fine. It gets a bad rap from ammo snubs. The only draw back to it is tends to “ice pick” at close ranges because the penetrator is contained within the jacket. It’s actually a lot better for carbines then M855a1 because the chamber pressures for that round are close to 70k psi. I think the military would’ve been better served switching to the 62 gr MK318 mod 1 round, or just using the 77gr Mk 262 rounds for general issue, but big army had to much invested in the “green” M855a1 for it to fail. Closing though there is absolutely nothing wrong with M855, and I love and train with it. I have about 2k rounds of Mk318 mod 1 set aside, but use the M855 to train with because both are 62 gr bullets. The ballistics aren’t exactly the same but close enough because the Mk 318 ammo is almost impossible to find nowadays.
318 is basically a bigfoot riding a unicorn but it is really really good stuff.
Excellent video, glad you made it
I wouldn't say it's inaccurate but it's not necessarily going to affect a target the same as 55gr or 77gr because of it's penetrator. It'll probably just ice pick a soft target. Still not a good day but less than desirable.
The tip look green to me. The description seems accurate.
Thanks for the work Reid!
10 years in the military. I'm kind of old school and we were taught 3 to 4 MOA is a fighting rifle. That being said most of the groups 2-3 MOA
My white oak armament 16” gun will hold 2 MOA off of a tailgate, 5 shot groups. Its accurate enough to deal with any problems and I wouldnt feel undergunned if its all I had. I quit chasing amazing groups every shooting session, acceptable hits for combat applications, thats what we are training for anyways!
I thought the real complaint with m855 was their widly inconsistent terminal effects. Which is why they developed the mk262 and w/e loading the marines were using. If youre a competent marksman then better ammo is warranted to make those hits count for more.
262 was designed for the SPR rifles to help to extend the range of the 556 without going to a larger round.
That is alot better than a old rock river I pulled out the back of the safe 1 in 9 twist with 55 grain Winchester ball with a scope. I guess it is going to get a criterion barrel, I know Winchester ball is bad, but can't be that bad. Like shooting buck shot at 50ty yards. I've got another build with a criterion barrel chrome lined and it's a top.
We were not issued green tip ammo during my last deployment to Afghanistan. We were issued the penetrator tip ammo.
Love how this video is 556 minutes long lol. Keep the videos coming. More AK stuff please.
Oh my gosh, iron sights? The horror!
We used green tip ammo for the M249 SAW in the Army. I could easily hit a standard torso target at 800 meters with iron sights. To me, that is good enough for combat.
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How the hell else would I have gotten expert every qual? Thanks for the video.