Wizards Takes Their Fury Out On Modern | MTGGoldfish Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 3 дек 2023
- The crew breaks down today's huge ban list update and answers #MTGFishmail!
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Игры
As soon as I saw Swiftspear was downshifted to common, I knew instantly it was gonna become a problem. Good to know I wasn't the only one.
What weird is that it wasn’t banned for being to powerful the deck on has a 50% win rate and it was deemed to not have to high of a meta % but because the card was polarizing
@@ashdog9235 Gavin pointed out in an article that the low win% is because mono-red was almost always winning game 1, but most decks have so much hate for it in the sideboard that it won game 2 and 3 a lot more rarely. So essentially, it was very strong, there's just hate for it in pauper (Blue Elemental Blast and Hydroblast in particular)... but that does completely skew the format still.
"What if the serialized cards had unique art?" they did that with the serialized Praetors
46:19 Crim I hate to break it to you, but the praetors absolutely have unique artworks for their serialized versions.
Yeah, some of their best as well (subjectively, obv)
Most alt art cards these. Days are objectively trash and almost unintelligible
@@yashindiamente282 that's just... your opinion bro.
The reason the Fury ban was so important is because fury was the 8th scannable card. Now with only one scam target (Grief) there isn’t enough incentive to run 8 undying evils and that greatly reduces the consistency of scam. Ofcourse could and probably will pivot to Orzhov but the question is, is playing the white cards anywhere near as good as the red cards? We will see
Also fury hits the omnath decks. So it was kinda a 2 for 1.
The Fury ban is also important because, despite the Goldfish team ignoring this, Fury being able to literally wipe a board for free, then come back as a 3/3 Double Strike for one mana is a huge issue. Yes, W6 is there. Fire/Ice is there. Those spells cost mana. Those spells cost more than one mana and don't leave a beefy body on the field afterwards.
@@Xoulrath_ It's usually a 4/4 Double Strike because Not Dead After All, Feign Death, etc. generally puts a +1/+1 boost on there whether through a counter or a role.
@@51gunner yeah, that's very true. I was just using its base stats.
They can switch to U/B with subtlety and slip out the back. Or they can switch to solitude and ephemerate
Please do that set symbol game. And also include drawing the symbols as a part of it instead of just straight identifying.
Banning Fury isn't enough to bring back x/1s. W6 was already pressuring them, now there's W6 and OB running around.
Bad take.
This is true. To some degree the flash on Bowmasters makes it as oppressive to x/1s as Fury. Maybe more so.
OB only triggers once ..so it can only kill one 1/1
@@stormycat0905 to a SINGLE X/1, that point can be argued. The problem is that you don't take into account the creature decks that are ripped apart by Fury. Bowmasters COSTS two mana and kills ONE creature on ETB. Fury gets as many as FOUR creatures upon ETB, while doing so for "free." It isn't even close.
One for one trades are fine, and SHOULD be what the game encourages. I play a lot of mana dorks; I always have since I first learned about ramp way back in 1997. I've NEVER had a problem with someone "bolting the bird," because it's a one for one trade. I spend my mana and play my card, the opponent spends their mana and plays their card, and we've each spent one mana and used one card.
Fury comes in and changes the landscape because it ignores the need to play well. It absolutely decimates Elf ramp, or Goblins, or Merfolk. At its absolute best, it's an 8 for 3, leaving a fast clock behind. Even at its most basic, it's a 4 for 2. This doesn't even allow a deck like Elves to begin to play. Goblins is even worse off. Maybe Merfolk can do better, but it can't perform well enough to bother sleeving up. Even Humans, which was a tier deck for quite a while, has completely disappeared. People want to play these decks, but they can't even begin to with Fury around.
This is true, although you miss one thing, Fury dealt with 4 to 8(Scammed) x/1's in ONE turn, while Bowmaster only deals with max 1 in one turn and W&6 1-3 over several turns.
32:50 as someone who doesn't play pioneer the key difference to me seems to be that you can proactively disrupt greasefang with like a tormod's crypt or something, meanwhile appraiser combo can only be interacted with reactively.
I think the Pioneer bans were reasonable, but I'm a little surprised that Smuggler's Copter got unbanned. The problem with that card wasn't that it was broken, but it so ubiquitous that it went into so many decks. I get that they want to help out Aggro decks, but I'm not sure this is the correct option. Especially, if it gets banned again.
As for Modern, I'm fine with Fury going but I don't know if it's enough to get Aggro decks relevant in Modern again. As for Up the Beanstalk, that one feels like a band aid banning. Wotc is never gonna stop printing cards that cheat on cost and they wanted something that hit Cascade decks and Omnath, but it also hurts weaker decks like Affinity.
Leave copter alone fool
Crim, as I am watching this I too am sore from that very same tour. Got caught in a push pit during Microwave and broke my ankle like a complete doof. Glad I can rest up and watch this while I recover!
I don't even want to think about how expensive the #69 breeding pool is going to be.
Banning beanstalk tells me that WOTC is comfortable pushing the boundaries of alternative cost cards that fly dangerously close to the sun.
Phil's animations are amazing, I'd love to see tokens based on his stuff like Oko Elk
I would like to second this
Pelicans fan here! New Orleans were the hornets after a team move from Charlotte, and then the new Charlotte Bobcats team popped up. The bobcats took the traditional hornets name back after New Orleans rebranded to the Pels
Pauper is my favorite format. I would love to see the mtg goldfish crew play it. I know they would actually love it too
Seth did it for a whyle
The problem with Pauper is while yes lots of decks are viable and playable its also a solved format. I dabbled with it for awhile but got bored.
@@eusebioalbertieri2248 I'll have to find that video
I really appreciate yall doing fishmail more. Thank you.
I am somewhat hopeful for modern. Yes scam still exists in some way or form, but the issue before was that Fury would single handedly mow down any board, thereby beating all creature based decks. Yes it was very hostile to X/1's, but the issue was that no matter how much you build up a scammed fury could do 8 damage, take out two lords and two other creatures with no effort.
X/1 is still a risky statline with bowmaster around to be sure, but if you stick a human and a lord bowmaster won't be enough unless you draw a fair bit extra.
Also planeswalkers can be played again without automatically dying to fury.
That card single handedly gatekept any deck trying to stick a creature of any size to the board.
Also of note is there's not as much card draw in the format as something like legacy in modern meaning bowmasters is not nearly as scary when depending on the matchup it might deal 1 damage at most
33:23 greasefang is a 2-card combo where appraiser is a 1-card combo. Maybe they don’t want cascade in pioneer and this combo was too close.
Bowmasters is the answer to the One Ring. Ask Isildur how that plays out.
True and good point. Sadly, we can't ban a $50 card that is still being pack cracked.
Beans is the definition of a band aid ban. The card that dies for other cards sins. Beans should be such a boring fair card. Instead because of wizards repeatedly designing cards that cheat CMC it became OP. I don't understand when they print cards like Bean why they don't check mana spent instead of CMC.
Fire play design. That's why. They can't not power creep now. They have no choice but rampant power creep (still less than yugioh at least.... for now)
Yup eye of ugin 2
Three years ago Beanstalk would have been considered a Commander only card that made its way into a Standard set.
@@imaginarymatterI mean it top 8’d a standard pro tour iirc
it wouldn't've 3 years ago@@henryzelman4541
I don't think the Fury ban will have the effect on X/1's people are expecting/hoping. It may free up Planeswalkers though. Just get ready for everything becoming a One Ring decks.
True, but but at least your opponent has to spend mana to deal with them now lol and unloading your hand of small creatures is less risky
It will not have much of an effect because Orcish Bowmasters is still a premier X/1 killer and it's still in.
X/1s won't truly be free until Orcish Bowmasters is gone as well, arguably W&6 as well altho that one sees much less play nowadays.
Really should have just banned Grief to be honest instead of Fury.
@@user-dd3dz6vz7lYes I agree. However Bowmasters is one of the best answers to Ring. So as long as Ring is legal Bowmasters should stay.
@@ElGrandeFatso why tho, do you really think grief is gonna be everywhere causing problems now? or do you think fury is healthy
The Menzingers though 🤌🔥
Fury doesn't just stop x/1 creatures
It also stops everything up to x/4 creatures. Sometimes multiple and keeping a 4/4 double striker.
It didn't just stop small creature decks. It just stopped creature decks in general
For the alternate art serialized cards, they already did that in MOM with the praetors.
People are underestimating the impact of Fury being gone. Yeah theres still X/1 answers but the counter to those is Force of Virtue. Not to mention the clock of fury, the fact that its a free wrath. It makes blow outs with creature decks stone unplayable. That's not the case anymore. Yeah solitude exists but its not as bad as Fury. As far as Beans goes I get it because of the fact it replaces itself and it negates the negative impact of the spells 4 color beans used.
Been looking forward to hear your take all day.
I love how Crim POGGs when they bring up anime art
49:09 I won’t be the only one but they already had special art for numbered cards with the praetors
It's still hilarious seeing comments from people saying BW Scam is an easy replacement as if that wasn't the 1st one people tried and failed miserably.
I wouldn't say it failed miserable, Rakdos was just better.
Yeah it's probably Dimir more than B/W. Both will be tried.
My theory on how well they manage pauper vs other formats is pauper is essentially the only format that doesn’t make money, so the enthusiasts working at WoTC are allowed to do whatever they want with it. Modern and Co don’t answer to Gavin, they answer to shareholders
After all that set symbol talk, a set symbol tierlist / playoffs has to happen!
Swiftspear hit is fair and mono red still good, and definitely hits spellslinger payoffs too. Grief needed a ban for modern too, and id go even further to say that evoke should just be removed as a mechanic and ban the elementals entirely. Standard needed a ban to nerf black but alas they did nothing again. Pioneer hits were decent but nykthos is broken still and too much mana in a format that supposed to be less powerful than modern.
In cEDH you cannot activate Karn's -2 (no sideboard is allowed) and he is still one of the best planeswalkers to play. The ability to turn off their artifacts is just insane. I think that speaks volumes about power level of the Karn. In any other format you accidently get what is enough to play the card in one of the most stacked formats of Magic.
You guys should do the set symbol thing, that sounds like a great episode
I think Sporcle has quizzes for that exact thing
"Name That Set" was already done as a segment by _Um, Actually..._ in their special *Magic: the Gathering* episode.
It was preety deece. You should try it.
They already did the Unique Serialized Art with the March of the Machines Praetors with Sheouldred, Elesh Norn etc.
Honestly I'm willing to bet that fury going away will be enough to put scam into a reasonable place. The difference between fury and grief is that fury closes the game much faster. Where scamming a grief has the same problem as all discard decks, your opponent can just draw out of it. Using 3 cards to discard two cards from your opponent and you get a 4/3 menace is good but nothing modern can't handle. If you have removal for the Grief it's a 3 for 3. And yes you can use ephemerate to get triple discards but white and solitude sucks in rakdos scam's game plan. Scam was so good because it could kick it's opponent while they were down. Flickering solitude just gives decks more time to turn the corner. A wicked role fury is a three turn clock, a wicked role grief or solitude is 5 and if you ephemerate either of those two it's 8 since ephemerate will reset it's summoning sickeness.
Also Orzov scam fell off the initial hype for reason, sure it wins sometimes but an unfun deck winning sometimes is not a reason to be banned. Once upon a time lantern control was a deck that won sometimes and that was truly miserable.
Talking about serialized cards with unique art, they did that for sheoldred, and elesh etc
With the holiday season still in the somewhat early stages there was no way they were going to ban the top two pulls from their holiday release set.
Pretty excited to try Copter with Inti
My spicy take is that cards without a casting cost like living end should not have a CMC and therefore should not be castable from cascade, period. It's not an interaction that was ever intended and has kinda just existed by precedent, but that can be changed
That would take a major rules rewrite, because right now, every single card, even tokens and lands, has a mana value and a color identity. It's a core element of how the rules allow the game to function. Tokens that aren't copies of permanents have a mana value of 0, as do lands. 0 mana value is the baseline for all things. Lands' color identity is colorless, which is why there are special rules about what lands you can use in an EDH deck. What you're asking for is a rehaul of the system that would be on par with the Sixth Edition rules changes, so for a fringe case like this, it will absolutely never happen.
@@collinbealthe game has needed a MAJOR rules update for years. Better now than ever. Wizards is bleeding players and there has never been more and largely better competition.
@@collinbeal well I did say it was spicy. Perhaps the easiest solution to stopping this interaction would be to go back in time and prevent any cards without mana costs from ever being printed, lol
@@jertlemiah now that I'm on board with 🤯👍. Remember to bet on horse #7.
I don't play Pioneer but the difference between Greasefang and Appraiser is Fang needs another card in the graveyard for a win, Appraiser just wins. That along with graveyard hate makes it not the same as Appraiser.
Waiting for this one
They were the Kansas City Kings, Crim. - Old fan :)
The Beanstalk ban feels kinda weird to me. The top deck that used Beanstalk was 4c Elementals, which already was hurt by the Fury ban... Banning a card and the card it combos with the best at the same time sounds really weird to me. Beanstalk had some fun builds like Affinity or the Allosaurus Rider one which werent op at all, I wish we could have tested Beans in a world without Fury for some time
I related so much to Richard during that NBA segment, lol. Though it sounds like he stopped watching well before I did (2016).
Not addressing all elementals or a least a few black card is insane. Black controls almost all the metas for magic right now. Happy to see blue white growing but black is extremely dominant
Did you see the different art in March of the machine for the predators? They all have unique art if I'm not mistaken
I agree with Richard's position at 7:08
I haven’t played explorer in a couple of months because standard is fun but when I did, I would never have thought Karn was the card that needed to be banned
I like the Fury ban in Modern. As Crim suggested, banning all the elementals is nonsensical. Endurance is a decent card, but Fury is/was *significantly* more powerful. Granting Grief a pass is curious, while passing on One Ring is eyebrow-raising. Even as a casual player with limited purview, I noticed how many bloody decks cram the One Ring into it.
Props for the basketball speak. Nerds and jocks need not be mutually exclusive. We can be multi-faceted creatures. I had been a pro hoops fan for a solid two decades before MtG even entered my life. I like them both. Gimme defense. I began watching in the early 90's when teams cared more about defense, while having fewer stringent rules contravening defense. Offense seems to be typically lauded as the more "interesting" style. Yawn. Scoring 140 points is lame, when each play and score holds very little value. Scoring 140 while surrendering 150 is extra mega disgraceful. Interestingly, my exclusive style of MtG play - control - translates into the brand of basketball and team I like: defense, control, mitigation, grit. Anyone else jive with that?
I am more shocked that Collector Boosters survived this BnR Announcement. VIP Packs sure need some tuning for that one to happen.
Appraiser is a good hit due to the whole "single card win con" thing. I havent lost to the deck but it warps the format. Karn is a great ban, i have multiple artifact decks i cant wait to play again. Mono green karn was also so dreadful to play against. As others have echoed here and reddit, I have shown up to RCQs just to play mono G 3 games out of 4. It stagnated the format so much that no one comes to my local now. Maybe it will start firing again. Nykthos was "fine" not to ban in my eyes but I guess it will really depend on what new decks come out of the bans. I would love to see devotion decks for each other color make a resurgence.
When it comes to modern the bans are good but not hitting grief still sucks. And I guess violent outburst just because its instant speed cascade. I went to monday night modern at my LGS right after the ban and was still griefed turn 1 of game 1, but what can you do.
Is the thumbnail correct in relation to the title?
Is Karn tGC banned also in Modern or is it only banned in Pioneer?
Karn is banned in Pioneer.
Not surprised about Bowmasters. It's much easier to play around than Fury since, other than sniping one at entry, you decide if you want to risk drawing extra cards or not. There's no real comparison there.
It's pretty much always a 3-1 when you want it to be. Opponent attacks you flash in, kill one with the trigger kill the other with blocks
@@TheEvolver311that happens ONCE, then you get to play around it. You know, the thing that you're supposed to do with a game? People want free wins and don't want to actually play the fucking game.
He said he didnt like old borders! GRAB YOUR PITCHFORKS!😂
It's unfortunate how discover/cascade plays so well in limited and so poorly in constructed.
I’m glad Crim is on my side in that old-border cards are just not our favorites.
It makes me so happy that Crim likes the Menzingers! They're my favorite band of all time and have gotten me through many rough times, and I geeked when I saw him wearing a Menzingers shirt in a past Commander podcast episode!
Orcish Bowmasters is so fine. It is one of the few cards that is controling card draw. Otherwise The One Ring would be going crazy (which it already is).
I want to play "What's that set symbol?"
You guys should try pauper. It's really fun
In Philly, 60 card here basically dead i would like to see WOTC focus more on 60 card support and try to revitalize standard, pioneer, and such
Hey, got any LGS recommendations in Philly? I've been looking to move there for a while now.
@@thekopekemaster depends on the part of the city Northeast is vacant. PGS and Redcapps are the best 2 imo. Both amazing stores
@@thekopekemaster Garden of Earthly Delights in Northeast is pretty good too. Sorry I forgor
Same here in St. Louis. There's only like 2 stores who regularly run Modern the same day every week, and even then their usual turnout is less than 16
@@Skelatard Thanks! I'm hoping to move pretty close to center city if possible, maybe in Fishtown. Seems like PGS would probably be my best bet if I end up around that area.
extremely early in the video so likely to edit this comment but, the difference between scamming in a 3/3 double strike and a 3/2 lifelink in the worst case of your opponent playing no targets for the etb are astronomically different
Exactly not not just that but Fury is a free wrath and can answer even more things than Solitude.
In standard ban any planeswalker that can ultimate as soon as it's played like Nissa
Based Crim with the old border opinion.
The Ravinca remaster set symbol looks like how those fake/create a card symbols look. It just feels wrong compared to any other set symbol ever. It’s so ugly, that it’s hard thinking of anything similar in other sets.
Fury was merciful on the speed of the kill. I agree with seth, grief just slowly kills you while you have nothing in hand to play
Also bowmasters doesn’t really keep x/1’s back since it only takes out 1 and the player that doesn’t control it must draw 2 cards a turn to take out 1 extra x/1…
Fury stopped a lot of creature decks by dealing 8 damage among up to 8 creatures wiping boards and there’s not any fighting back from that for most creature decks
The Looter Scooter take @29:00 didn't age well and we're 48 hours in lol
Theory on the serialized cards but could this be their new reserved list? Like I could potentially see a future where they reprint the list however they add serialized versions as super sneaky work arounds? It may just be crackpot, I know the list is a huge topic in it's own but this was just a passing thought I had.
Grief was the bigger issue, not fury. What a mistake not banning it.
I'm mostly just confused that wizards would rather ban a random uncommon than cards that break the resource system of the game wide open. Free spells are almost always a problem.
Because they want to print problem cards.
Modern Horizons 2 was a dangerous precedent for the game because it was one of the first sets that it's tough to argue anything toxic in it was a "mistake." For one of their first spoiler previews of the set, they discussed how Grief would be generically good as another unmask, an evasive beater, and potential synergy with Ephemerate that would make it a stronger turn one Though-Knot Seer, when turn two Thought-Knot Seers were enough to ruin the format.
@@SmartAlec1 You think to highly of their mental capacity. The simple answer is banning an rare or mythic is worse for them financially both irl and on arena.
@@Shimatzu95 They are the only currently financially successful division in a large corporation so they would be smart. It is a greed thing, no doubt about that. But the power creep is very deliberate and the Grief thing I mentioned isn't a theory: I remember vividly the designers talking about that as they were previewing the card which is insane.
I'm with Seth on the old border love and the extended art hate.
If a new format dropped today and had a viable enchantress deck, I'd buy in immediately.
Not banning Grief is a big error. The play pattern isn´t fun and therefore makes many games in Modern unfun to play.
I have been complaining about set symbols for over a year
Any time a company has money first, and then game play second, that particular game is doomed. Tbh, Magic has been going down since pre covid. As a board game creator myself, I know it first hand. I can't wait until Magic implodes, and is handed off to another company and it can get back to its roots. If this does happen, it will bw many years from now, and it wont be recognizable.
Thanks for the show guys! You are always entertaining.
Richard always looks like an emoji come to life. : )
oh no! the memba berries! at instant speed!
What is the impact of smugglers copter on Greasefang? A looting vehicle that is known to be good seems like trouble
I'm actually wondering how long Smugglers and TC will last together in the format. TC is going to eat a ban eventually
There might be a possibility that banning fury makes bow master see more play to deal with the problems that fury was dealing with
Fury was suppressing a lot of decks down but was also a 3-turn clock on turn one. With Fury banned, we might see a resurgence of more low-to-the-ground creature decks. Bowmaster is good but isn't a 3-turn clock on turn one either.
I'm glad Crim doesn't run mtg B&R. He would basically throw the whole format in the trash it seems. Most of the elementals are fine, and I think it could be argued that subtlety, solitude, and endurance are actually necessary for the format to function at this point. The format would pretty quickly devolve at this point imo if there were no elementals and nothing else to fill in the void.
While grief is the more immediately annoying part of scam also, but fury is the reason they had a good late game vs more aggressive tempo decks. Fury can wipe an entire board when it appears that you've stabilized against scam. And generally, the card also was leaned on to some extent in almost every red deck
I still don't understand why the serial number isn't on the bottom of the cards, the way they are now makes them extremely ugly imo
The best way to beat cascade decks is to play merfolk :D
I am expecting Elesh Norn, the 5 drop, will get banned on Sheldon's birthday on a few years
Lots of Temur Rhinos/Cascade hate here. All we wanna do is wing with rhinos crashing (like a CRASH OF RHINOS HEYOOOOOO) across the battlefield/savannah.
Don't nerf us, just nerf hand denial, which stops people from playing Magic. :-(
so isn't the "fix" for cascade/ discover cards to just do a rules change (like they did for brain in a jar) where cards that lack a casting cost, can ONLY be cast via their suspend use. limits the amount of bans needed while still fixing the issue of "oops, turn 6 card on turn 2"
Scam goes to black white or black green, guessing bg to possibly keep using the elementals while still pushing value.
When talking about the random new format discussion. I REALLY REALLY wish door to nothingness was in pioneer. I really wish they would print it in an up coming set. Because I think it would be the best thing for a ramp deck to play as a win con. I just love that card.
Could dimir elemental scam become a thing? Thoughtseize away your hand and then put your spells on top of your library. Beat down with 2 3/3s.
What if the Collector Number was in the bottom left corner?
Return to return to return to Ravnica. Just what everyone was clamoring for.
Can some modern player explain to me why the Leyline Binding is ban-worthy? I understand that the 4-5 colour decks can flash it in for 1 mana but imo that is ok. Maybe fetch into triome is too strong?
A 1 mana catch all to anything is too strong. Unless we get more non basic land hate its too easily achievable to be a 1 mana spell.
Looter Scooter is going to be so stupid in Greasefang decks.
Why would WotC keep printing free spells in the first place is beyond me
I thought grief was number 1 to go.
Yeah ban the elementals and then up the beanstalks not so bad. Cause i do like up the beanstalk.
Crim: "It is fine until it affects me."
My beautiful Karns 😭😭😭 taken from us too soon
Lol I'm surprised that he lasted this long in Pioneer. Oh wait, no I'm not. 😂
I'm really glad that banned fury in modern, but beans did not deserve it. Beans would have done nothing if it weren't for all of the free elementals and the one ring is just going to run rampant again. I think that modern just shouldn't have free interaction, I don't think free proactive spells are that bad but free interaction is really stifling. Cascading into something at the cost of not being able to play much interaction is fine but when Cascade decks can play interaction is the problem, and thats what all these free spells are doing
To doubble up on this comment. Free spells should be reserved for vintage and legacy ONLY, get this nonsence out of commander please.
@@Shimatzu95free spells have always been in Commander lol
The Cascade decks have plenty of interactive cards that are not the Elementals
@@Shimatzu95Commander IS basically Legacy, dude.
@@TheEvolver311 status quo is not necessary good
If WotC doesn't want turn 3 kills, then Symmetry Sage needs to be unrebalanced in Historic.
Historic isn't Pioneer is it? They have different expectations for different formats. Also run some removal the UR Wizards deck is a good police deck against the numerous combo decks and folds up against midrange
@@TheEvolver311 and what are those expectations? does anyone know?