The idea of getting to play your character to their fullest and choose what kind of character you want to be rather than getting stuck in a predetermined mold that sounds incredible! I’d be totally down to learn more.
When I joined the mailing list for Black Flag, I thought to myself, "Well, maybe this will be the big new game that I sink my teeth into for a while." And then here comes Coach with DC20. I want to know everything about this system - especially the part about how soon I can buy it and play it with my group! lol (I know that everything takes time, so no worries. Just excited!)
Black Flag could be good but have a feeling its going to be as close to 5e as possible. DC20 seems to be going out of the way to fix issues and introduce some great new takes. Which sounds like the better approach. Excited to see more.
Everything you are saying makes so much sense. No feat taxes or dead levels. More fun for everyone. I'll be following your channel and am excited to see what you cook up.
I love the talk on levels. Interestingly enough the D&D basic rules addressed this without doing it directly, but through its organization. The red box was “basic”, then “expert”, then “companion”, “master”, finally “immortal”. This put you in the frame of mind for how you were playing. Basic got you started and figuring out how to play, expert was where you spent most of your time, companion extended it, and on and on. I feel like they lost the thread when they combined and created AD&D.
I'm glad to hear that your system will do away with (or at least reduce) the "robbing Peter to pay Paul" feeling of multiclassing and the Feat/ ASI +2/ ASI +1 +1 conundrum. Also very encouraging that you'll be putting an end to static skill proficiencies.
“My game design philosophy” that statement is so important to this discussion. Because, games and their rules dictate play, which dictates the community which grows around that play, which develops it’s own culture. The *philosophy* behind each rule, will drastically change the culture that the game builds. I’ve actually got more fun out of RPGs where the leveling system is horizontal or nonexistent. Because playing in and being involved with the culture behind those games are where I’ve had the most fun. Minimalist RPGs, OSR games, and narrative games have really given me a deeper more soul touching game play. I’m very excited to see what DC20 ends up looking like. Solely because it’s you and I greatly respect you. But I really hope you go all out putting your philosophies, your ideas, your creativity and YOU into it. Not just D&D with 50 exclamation marks lol Build the game that encapsulates the philosophies you want to play by. You will find others who agree. Especially in this “Great OGL Exodus” At my table the most important rules are: 1- Everyone at the table matters and is equally important. 2- The world is alive, and does not care what level your characters are. But as a GM I care about you. 3-together we can tell a much better story than any of us could alone. Your creativity is vital to the game. I enjoy any game that can encapsulate these guidelines.
Really strong points made! Level 10 is the normal level most players ascend to. I'm not really on board with replacing the spell slot system because it helps maintain power tiers of magic but I'm excited to see the mana system you think of. This was a great video illustrating the broken ideology in the leveling system and I'm excited to see more concrete ideas on how leveling should work. Keep doing what you are doing!
So my campaigns ended with First: Lvl.6 Second:Lvl.15 Third: Lvl 6 Fourth: Lvl 12 Fifth: Lvl.12 ongoing Sixth: Lvl 4 ongoing So yeah I completly agree lvl 20 you almost never reach
Agreed! leveling up feels lack luster. And why is customizing your're character so restricted in DND. I'm so glad you're going to make a game that is going to be more exciting on multiple levels.
Super good idea those prestige levels! I like the idea of picking whatever you want above lvl 10, attributes or feats etc... I'll be looking out for your system coach!
Id be interested in seeing a character sheet breakdown and a monster statblock breakdown, this would help ground all these changes you've been throwing around (which all sound really good)
This whole thing with the OGL and WotC has really inspired me to work on my own ttrpg as well. I love the simplicity of 5e for new players, but I've had a ton of problems with 5e for a long time. I've been working on a custom campaign setting for over a year with a ton of homebrew (much of which has been inspired by your channel and ideas), but I've finally decided to bite the bullet, go whole hog, and take all the homebrew I've invented and finally make my own game. And this way, I don't just get to make subclasses and feats like when I was using DnDBeyond. I get to make every class feel special, from scratch. Make every class work directly with my custom mechanics. Design my own character sheets. Make my own ruleset for Fantasy Grounds, etc. Just wanted to say, thanks Coach. The OGL may have pushed me to make this course correction, but I wouldn't have even been on the path if it weren't for your inspiration. I'll be seeing you on Patreon when I get the money, and I look forward to seeing more of your great ideas.
I've always held that level 11-20 are like the skybox of a great open-world video game. They display the horizon, the game would feel claustrophobic without them, but you never actually reach them. I don't even think you're meant to. It's aspirational
I think it's dumb some classes don't come online until level 3. If you only play to level 10, that's a huge chunk of the game where you aren't even your class!
This sounds incredible! Can’t wait to hear more! Knocking it out of the park as always Coach! Also, I love the skill point idea. I too feel the same way - Pathfinder is a little too crunchy for me but 5E isn’t crunchy enough. Sounds like you have found the sweet spot 👍😎
Very valid point, I had a different idea on it though. I was thinking of dropping xp requirements by a bit to make it a little “easier” to level. However, I do believe doing more difficult quests/fighting higher level monsters should be more difficult and deadly. So, less xp required, but more dangerous to get there. Also in my system I’m going with attributes each level, currently testing with +2 attributes each level (I have 7 main attributes) and and your starting stats are lower. There is 0 possibility of starting with an attribute at 17+.
I would join the patreon if it wasn't for the fact that I am SUPER broke and have more urgent things to pay for. For the past few years I have been trying to make my own TTRPG because I didn't like how 5e worked. I was on and off of my project until P2E was released. P2E was a LOT better in my eyes, but there were still some stuff I didn't like. I incorporated more of P2E's system and actually got the entire base rules done. Unfortunately, the next step was making *classes, feats, and other specific stuff, and that was a BIG slice of work. I then went and took a break, then went back working on it, then took another break. This happened repeatedly and Unfortunatly I was never able to actually make a full version in the end. I do still have my notes and old works, so that's nice.
Yes, yes, yes! Everything you have said about the DC20 RPG so far has been things I've been saying would work better for D&D since I started playing. I think it would make the game smoother and much more fun to play. Im excited to see what else is in store, and DEFINITELY plan on using this system when its all ready to go
Listening to your videos gets me excited about your DC20 system and the future of table top gaming in general. I've only ever played D&D 5e, and the group I was in only got to level eight before I had to leave. It's a long story, but the short version is my wife and I just didn't feel comfortable in the group. I love that creators like you are making game systems that can be tailored to the interests of different players. Keep it up, I'm excited to see what the future brings! (By the way, any chance you will have dragonborn type classes in DC20?)
Brett! Thanks for that, I’m glad to hear you’re excited about this new game system too! I can say there will be plenty of dragon theme things going on! I am quite obsessed with them! Stay tuned!
Goes for 10 levels, gain improvements every level, and lots of branching character building choices sounds exactly like Shadow of the Demon Lord (released in 2015), by Robert Schwalb (a writer on 3rd edition D&D, Warhammer, etc). In it, you start by choosing a race and a general Novice class (the typical 4 choices of Magician, Priest, Rogue, or Warrior). At 3rd level you choose an Expert Path for your character (there are 16 choices in the core book, from Assassin to Wizard, and you don't have to choose one that matches your Novice class). At 7th level, you can either choose a 2nd Expert class or choose a Master Path that refines a more specific skill (divided into 64 different Master paths, such as an Abjurer, or a Sharpshooter.) Again, the choices are all up to the character! I think you'd really enjoy that game!
I was hoping for a few more specifics or examples of class progression in your system. That said I am hyped for this system, can't wait for more vids on the subject.
I'm getting hyped for your system. I would love a class by class breakdown that goes thru their abilities n how they level up. With just 10 levels I say absolutely give a characteristic point per level
There is a little secret about dungeons and dragons that most people do not realize. There is a reason the higher levels are usually not played. That is because the game was not designed to be played from level one through 20, it was designed to be played from levels one through approximately 10. I are the higher levels playable? Yes. However, it is much more difficult to do so, especially for the poor game master. Many of the abilities that the characters will have, especially the magic characters, our game, breaking, and we’re designed to allow NPC bad guys to be able to challenge a fight against multiple player characters. I know this is a hot take, but way back in the day. This was the opinion of most people, at least most people I met.
Most young people now see level 20 and think, I’m supposed to reach that. And all the coolest class features are between lvls 12-20. That is what people look forward to being able to use, so yes, I think the expectations have shifted
Thanks for uploading all of this. It really gets me excited about something i grew up with (but barely get to do as an adult nowadays). It's been over a decade since I've run any games. And i still like watching lore and any RPG news.
The 20 levels of gameplay equate to (2) different things, the 18 steps of the hero's journey and the 18-23 steps of a movie script. Meaning, in RPGs this story structure is scaffolding to produce emergent and immersive story from the players themselves.
I think about the only good way to get rid of spell slots is to give casters a spell point or two each level, and then let some refresh after each short rest. But you have to limit how many spells of each level they can cast in a day, so they have to use spells of various levels instead of spamming one spell over and over. The sorcerer and warlock classes in 5e are convoluted nonsense.
I have run multiple campaigns to level 20. The issue I always run into is the lose of interest in combat by that point. People hit their ideal goals at certain levels and lose interest in the progression of their character. It normally happens around level 12 to 15. Its also when the CR system breaks. Its a conundrum. There are so many cool powers and spells at high level but it takes so long to get to it it becomes lackluster.
My d&d ability score/feat progression overhaul gives you one boost every level, a single ability score boost at one level, a feat (all of which are halved without an ability boost), and a utility/non-combat feat (so taking these flavorful options are not in place of usual feats... which helps martials have out of combat utility).
the good thing about the level system is that it encourages starting either from lvl1 or lvl10 and both take the same ammount of time to get to the "capatone"
Great stuff Coach! I think it was said before but this is sounding more like Pathfinder 2e. To be clear I am totally okay with that! More options and customizability while also linking the actual playing of the game (not playing lv 14-20 often) with the actual gameplay is genius. Watch out WoTC!
Super excited for the new system and all this content! I know you are super into this whole thing. As a fan, I'm just going to suggest that you edit out some of the repetitive parts.. I think people will be more likely to click on the video if it's tighter/shorter and doesn't retread the same idea 3-5 times here and there, even if it's a super important and exciting thing. (I might just be over saturated having already watched the Patreon livestream and stuff)
You will never see beyond level 12 if you are never interested in higher level play. If length of campaign is an issue (some people just get bored, I suppose), then start characters at level 10 and play from there. Just a bad argument. Also, the reason why the designers allow either a attribute score increase *or* a feat is because of balance. If we got all the things all the time, characters would become OP. I suppose if we want to enable dopamine overdrive for an award schedule, then rebalance your class designs to support that. I think you'll wind up facing the same issues that WotC / TSR has run into over the last 40 years.
Your system reminds me of D&D 3.5 when you get skill points every level. The problem with 3.5 is you got so many skill points that by the time you got the lvl 10 some skill checks were useless. I'm looking forward to a balanced skillpoint progression that makes things feel relevant as the game goes on.
In my games, where characters gain an ASI on their class chart, they gain a feat (which cannot be ASI). When they reach Levels 4,8,12,16, and 20 as characters (independent of class), they gain their ASIs (how those increases cannot both be the same ability score).
Reminds me of a popular hack from the old days of 3rd edition called "Epic 6th Level" or E6 for short. In E6 characters stop leveling after reaching 6th level, but continue to gain feats. The idea was to remove the super high powered characters, the high fantasy to super hero feel of the game, nerf the spellcasters and instead "force" the game to play at the sweet spot of the system. It also cut down on complexity
A spell is a class feature though. When you get a 5th level spell slot, you get a list of like 15-20 class features to choose from. That is the most customization any class sees.
I would like to see videos on Pathfinder, DC20 system, and other systems. Help me sift thorough the information to find the right system is right to switch to after D&D. Thank you for all your creativity
As a thought for a magic system. Have Mana points and no spell levels. As a rough example, if you use 1 mana point to cast fire ball it does 1d6 damage and a blast diameter of 5 ft. Spend 2 mana points and increase the damage to 2d6 etc. Or spend extra mana points to increase the blast radius. Spend heaps of mana points and make a big blast that does lots of damage. As a secondary option. Make the caster make some sort of Spell check based on point spent. make the save, keep the mana points. Effectively making weak spells cantrips. Fail the roll, you use up your mana points, spell still takes effect. If you fail the roll and exceed you mana points, the caster takes damage. Feel free to use this concept Dungeon Coach.
It is ridicilous how similar we think. I've been writting my own systems for the past 3 years and i've only stumbled upon your channel few days ago. It is not identical.... but the overlap is insane....
the problem with lv20, is that the game is "more" balanced around lv10 and game breaking spells dms can't plan enough stuff a smoother progression would not have as much issues
You don't want to make max level. You design it beyond what most people would get to. D&D made a game to 20th level because they noticed games weren't going beyond 20th. It used to go to 30 They left enough room to play to 20 if you want, but most games end well before that
I disagree, everyone who I have ever played with is frustrated about not reaching lvl 20 and not being able to get the full class experience. i believe those who don’t mind are an expectation, based on my experience
Love the ability score improvement method you're doing here, I've always felt that starting at +5 makes you feel like you're already super good at that stat, even though you're level 1, doesn't give you a feeling of development. Starting at lower ability scores with the chance to improve them every level is something similar I've done, love to see how you've written it, sounds like yours is better lol
Sounds amazing I like the idea of a leveling system that doesn't force you to a new class to fulfill your characters vision. So increases each level that allows you to increase skill and attributes of your character or even purchasing new profiecncies
Coach, I have a few points that would be game changers for a new system. One would be do away with AC or rather a boring passive defense and allow players to make opposing rolls to defend them selves in combat. Let armor be what it’s designed for= soaking or deflecting damage only. This would be a favorite update to combat that would keep the players more invested and doing something instead of waiting for their turn: make one attack miss-wait seven turns without rolling..etc. thanks Coach. Keep the good fight going!
I'm loving the concept. I like the progression of stats and skills. Like you're adventuring. You're running, climbing, what all - why wouldn't your Str or Con go up, even for a weak wizard? Or while your Paladin with a soldier background is now making the party do pushups in the morning, maybe the Wizard is teaching the Barbarian how to read better (thus Int goes up). Or the Cleric and the Rogue having philosophic discussions (thus Wisdom), or maybe the Bard is teaching the Fighter how to use their words better (Charisma increase). And apply these all to skills - group doing a lot of Athletic type activities, maybe you want to put more into it? Or maybe hanging out with the nerdy Wizard, the fighter starts to learn some History. Also pointing out that 5e does a bad job of giving the classes enough skills. Yeah not every class needs to be skill-monkey like, but I really feel that putting points into Int, if you're not an Int Caster, should let you invest in skills. Fighters don't have to just be there to soak and dish out damage - they could you know contribute with knowing History or Survival or investing in Sneaking. Or maybe they want to assist the Cleric of the group and know medicine. Anyways, look forward to more.
I find it interesting you are working with levels in your own system. This channel is all about customization, so I figured you would go for a point system like GURPS. If you haven't already, I would recomend checking out GURPS. It does away with levels, and you just get points to buy anything in the system. Want more dex? 20 points. Want to learn animal handling? 1 point. Want to be better at animal handling? another point. Want to fly? 50 points. Want to homebrew, built whatever you want, then ask the GM what the point cost is. Anyway, level systems have their place, they guide the developement of your character, and makes for easier character creation and progression. But trying to fit maximum customization into them, is sort of like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole.
Cool idea! I like also the idea from Maze Rats where when you reach max level your character becomes a NPC. I also like the idea from Mörg Borg where you can get worse when leveling but it doesn’t matter because you will probably die sooner or later 😂
I truly believe that you are going to change the game. I know me and my friends use your rules at our table. I have 3 of your pdfs and I am definitely getting your ttrpg. Thanks for all the great content and not getting sucked into the whirlpool of the ogl and creating nothing but click bait content.
I am curious about one thing with the 10 level system. I know you are throwing away spell slots but what is a casters spell growth going to look like in a 10 level system? How will you differentiate spell levels? Will they have "max level" spells by 10? How would you balance that with the more martial oriented classes? Ok definitely not one question but they all tie together. But watching these make me quite excited for what you do put out!
"game is made to level 20 and no one really ever plays to that level" This is why I dislike when people make builds and say first be a level 17 fighter then... Who is doing this for a cheese build?
This is starting to sound a lot like turning 5e back into 3.x. I'm still intrigued, as the leveling/scaling issues certainly could use some refinement (and your enthusiasm is quite compelling)...I just hope my gut is stupid wrong here, because this sounds like "5e isn't 3.x, let's make it more like 3.x".
dnd infamously falls apart when you cross 10th level, so most people end their campaigns before or people start many campaigns that fizzle out before their intended finish lowering the average campaign level to 8-12. Coach *slams table*: THE PEOPLE WANT 10 LEVELS OF PLAY
I look forward to the D&D shirts you make where you go. Hey player leveling Get rid of spell slots, get rid of gaps where all you get is hit points, My sister gets rid of blah blah blah that you find annoying, My sister makes seeds matter, My system has prestiges so that way when you level up past level 10 you hit Max, My system gets rid of level 18, 19 and 29 since that you never get to use! Hit me with that elevator pitch coach, I love your videos. I love your system of the little bits that you've been foreshadowing But I need a like 5min video of, here's everything in 5e I hated the most and a 1 sentence "I replaced it with this!" I played fourth edition D&D. I played 5th edition d&d, I've now looked at Pathfinder. I've heard about idle RPG, and the date system. I feel you have a unique position compared to the majority, where you can totally define yourself as a. Here's the important differences I have from 5th edition Excited to learn more!, Go coach go
I love all the ideas for this new game! I recently started dming and playing 5e with some friends and as a dm building my first homebrew world i have to say i find so much i don't like about DND. Could this kind of design be brought into DND, kinda Frankenstein DND into a different game, most of friends don't care and like that I've been home brewing rules. I was thinking os just giving my players the ability to get feats on certain level ups when they would get nothing. Would that be too busted? Also i was thinking of doing a milestone system instead of XP so i would just tell my players after completing a specific quest or x amount of quests they all level up (they are starting at lvl3 anyways)
The more I see this system, the more I love it. My group is even starting to get hyped!
The idea of getting to play your character to their fullest and choose what kind of character you want to be rather than getting stuck in a predetermined mold that sounds incredible! I’d be totally down to learn more.
When I joined the mailing list for Black Flag, I thought to myself, "Well, maybe this will be the big new game that I sink my teeth into for a while." And then here comes Coach with DC20. I want to know everything about this system - especially the part about how soon I can buy it and play it with my group! lol (I know that everything takes time, so no worries. Just excited!)
Black Flag could be good but have a feeling its going to be as close to 5e as possible. DC20 seems to be going out of the way to fix issues and introduce some great new takes. Which sounds like the better approach. Excited to see more.
Cant wait to get the whole picture of your ttrpg, cause atm all the titbits you have dropped so far is golden.
Everything you are saying makes so much sense. No feat taxes or dead levels. More fun for everyone. I'll be following your channel and am excited to see what you cook up.
Same I like the idea of gaing the bulk of your class features before level 10
Thanks for that!! I’m with ya man! I’m trying to shake it up!
I love the talk on levels. Interestingly enough the D&D basic rules addressed this without doing it directly, but through its organization.
The red box was “basic”, then “expert”, then “companion”, “master”, finally “immortal”. This put you in the frame of mind for how you were playing. Basic got you started and figuring out how to play, expert was where you spent most of your time, companion extended it, and on and on.
I feel like they lost the thread when they combined and created AD&D.
That was the split into two different games
I'm excited to see the directions you'll go in.
DC: "I'm going to fix D&D!" *recreates 3rd edition*
I'm glad to hear that your system will do away with (or at least reduce) the "robbing Peter to pay Paul" feeling of multiclassing and the Feat/ ASI +2/ ASI +1 +1 conundrum. Also very encouraging that you'll be putting an end to static skill proficiencies.
Explain the action system next please! I'm very interested in knowing what you're going for
“My game design philosophy” that statement is so important to this discussion. Because, games and their rules dictate play, which dictates the community which grows around that play, which develops it’s own culture. The *philosophy* behind each rule, will drastically change the culture that the game builds. I’ve actually got more fun out of RPGs where the leveling system is horizontal or nonexistent. Because playing in and being involved with the culture behind those games are where I’ve had the most fun. Minimalist RPGs, OSR games, and narrative games have really given me a deeper more soul touching game play.
I’m very excited to see what DC20 ends up looking like. Solely because it’s you and I greatly respect you. But I really hope you go all out putting your philosophies, your ideas, your creativity and YOU into it. Not just D&D with 50 exclamation marks lol
Build the game that encapsulates the philosophies you want to play by. You will find others who agree. Especially in this “Great OGL Exodus”
At my table the most important rules are:
1- Everyone at the table matters and is equally important.
2- The world is alive, and does not care what level your characters are. But as a GM I care about you. 3-together we can tell a much better story than any of us could alone. Your creativity is vital to the game.
I enjoy any game that can encapsulate these guidelines.
Love the direction you are going for. Especially fixing missed opportunities from other systems.
Really strong points made! Level 10 is the normal level most players ascend to. I'm not really on board with replacing the spell slot system because it helps maintain power tiers of magic but I'm excited to see the mana system you think of. This was a great video illustrating the broken ideology in the leveling system and I'm excited to see more concrete ideas on how leveling should work. Keep doing what you are doing!
So my campaigns ended with
First: Lvl.6
Second:Lvl.15
Third: Lvl 6
Fourth: Lvl 12
Fifth: Lvl.12 ongoing
Sixth: Lvl 4 ongoing
So yeah I completly agree lvl 20 you almost never reach
Agreed! leveling up feels lack luster. And why is customizing your're character so restricted in DND. I'm so glad you're going to make a game that is going to be more exciting on multiple levels.
Super good idea those prestige levels!
I like the idea of picking whatever you want above lvl 10, attributes or feats etc... I'll be looking out for your system coach!
Id be interested in seeing a character sheet breakdown and a monster statblock breakdown, this would help ground all these changes you've been throwing around (which all sound really good)
This whole thing with the OGL and WotC has really inspired me to work on my own ttrpg as well. I love the simplicity of 5e for new players, but I've had a ton of problems with 5e for a long time. I've been working on a custom campaign setting for over a year with a ton of homebrew (much of which has been inspired by your channel and ideas), but I've finally decided to bite the bullet, go whole hog, and take all the homebrew I've invented and finally make my own game. And this way, I don't just get to make subclasses and feats like when I was using DnDBeyond. I get to make every class feel special, from scratch. Make every class work directly with my custom mechanics. Design my own character sheets. Make my own ruleset for Fantasy Grounds, etc.
Just wanted to say, thanks Coach. The OGL may have pushed me to make this course correction, but I wouldn't have even been on the path if it weren't for your inspiration. I'll be seeing you on Patreon when I get the money, and I look forward to seeing more of your great ideas.
I've always held that level 11-20 are like the skybox of a great open-world video game. They display the horizon, the game would feel claustrophobic without them, but you never actually reach them. I don't even think you're meant to. It's aspirational
Level based games are just garbage anyway. Ttrpg or video game. All garbage.
Excited to see more of your system! I also agree that my favorite part of making a character is customizing it and feats are the main way I do that.
This is the content I want, brother
I've litteraly had this exact idea like 3 months ago. Been working on it myself to implement it somewhere
Nice job, Coach. Hopefully folks will listen all the way through to get all the meat in this video.
I think it's dumb some classes don't come online until level 3.
If you only play to level 10, that's a huge chunk of the game where you aren't even your class!
This sounds great. I hope you can make existing class we know even better and make some fun new ones too.
This sounds incredible! Can’t wait to hear more! Knocking it out of the park as always Coach! Also, I love the skill point idea. I too feel the same way - Pathfinder is a little too crunchy for me but 5E isn’t crunchy enough. Sounds like you have found the sweet spot 👍😎
I love all types of different games and systems. So I’m interested in seeing what you are making for sure.
Hype!!! So excited for your new system!! Loved what I heard from the live stream. Keep the train going.
Very valid point, I had a different idea on it though. I was thinking of dropping xp requirements by a bit to make it a little “easier” to level. However, I do believe doing more difficult quests/fighting higher level monsters should be more difficult and deadly. So, less xp required, but more dangerous to get there.
Also in my system I’m going with attributes each level, currently testing with +2 attributes each level (I have 7 main attributes) and and your starting stats are lower. There is 0 possibility of starting with an attribute at 17+.
Here we go ladies, gents, and everyone in- between! Let's see the goods, Coach^^!
There's gonna have to be a form of spell limitation for spell type but I do love the resource from the live stream
Hope these take off on RUclips because I'd like to see a lot more of it!
I would join the patreon if it wasn't for the fact that I am SUPER broke and have more urgent things to pay for. For the past few years I have been trying to make my own TTRPG because I didn't like how 5e worked. I was on and off of my project until P2E was released. P2E was a LOT better in my eyes, but there were still some stuff I didn't like. I incorporated more of P2E's system and actually got the entire base rules done. Unfortunately, the next step was making *classes, feats, and other specific stuff, and that was a BIG slice of work. I then went and took a break, then went back working on it, then took another break. This happened repeatedly and Unfortunatly I was never able to actually make a full version in the end. I do still have my notes and old works, so that's nice.
Yes, yes, yes! Everything you have said about the DC20 RPG so far has been things I've been saying would work better for D&D since I started playing. I think it would make the game smoother and much more fun to play. Im excited to see what else is in store, and DEFINITELY plan on using this system when its all ready to go
Listening to your videos gets me excited about your DC20 system and the future of table top gaming in general. I've only ever played D&D 5e, and the group I was in only got to level eight before I had to leave. It's a long story, but the short version is my wife and I just didn't feel comfortable in the group. I love that creators like you are making game systems that can be tailored to the interests of different players. Keep it up, I'm excited to see what the future brings! (By the way, any chance you will have dragonborn type classes in DC20?)
Brett! Thanks for that, I’m glad to hear you’re excited about this new game system too! I can say there will be plenty of dragon theme things going on! I am quite obsessed with them! Stay tuned!
It’s interesting that alot of the problems that DC finds with 5e weren’t problems in 3.5e.
Goes for 10 levels, gain improvements every level, and lots of branching character building choices sounds exactly like Shadow of the Demon Lord (released in 2015), by Robert Schwalb (a writer on 3rd edition D&D, Warhammer, etc). In it, you start by choosing a race and a general Novice class (the typical 4 choices of Magician, Priest, Rogue, or Warrior). At 3rd level you choose an Expert Path for your character (there are 16 choices in the core book, from Assassin to Wizard, and you don't have to choose one that matches your Novice class). At 7th level, you can either choose a 2nd Expert class or choose a Master Path that refines a more specific skill (divided into 64 different Master paths, such as an Abjurer, or a Sharpshooter.) Again, the choices are all up to the character! I think you'd really enjoy that game!
SO excited for this to come out.
I was hoping for a few more specifics or examples of class progression in your system. That said I am hyped for this system, can't wait for more vids on the subject.
Thank you, coach! I've started to hype up your system to my dnd group, and we will definitely try it out in our next campaign 😄♥️
the more i hear the more i like
I'm getting hyped for your system. I would love a class by class breakdown that goes thru their abilities n how they level up. With just 10 levels I say absolutely give a characteristic point per level
The amount of hype I have for the DC20 RPG is astronomical at this point
For the Algorithm! The world needs to know about this!
Add one point asi per level, but you can't add a point to the score you increased last level. Keep the Max bonus 5. Sounds great.
There is a little secret about dungeons and dragons that most people do not realize. There is a reason the higher levels are usually not played. That is because the game was not designed to be played from level one through 20, it was designed to be played from levels one through approximately 10. I are the higher levels playable? Yes. However, it is much more difficult to do so, especially for the poor game master. Many of the abilities that the characters will have, especially the magic characters, our game, breaking, and we’re designed to allow NPC bad guys to be able to challenge a fight against multiple player characters. I know this is a hot take, but way back in the day. This was the opinion of most people, at least most people I met.
Most young people now see level 20 and think, I’m supposed to reach that. And all the coolest class features are between lvls 12-20. That is what people look forward to being able to use, so yes, I think the expectations have shifted
Each vid I j get more excited
Love it coach!!
Something I think would be kind of cool and ttrpg is your abilities evolving or changing the more you use them
Although if you do something like that I think it should be based on the success of using the ability to make it stronger
I haven't played levels 1-9 for over a few decades, in 5e its usually 11th level or higher. Cheers Man. Good work.
Loving this stuff so far. You make a lot of good points. Keep up the good work!
Thanks for uploading all of this. It really gets me excited about something i grew up with (but barely get to do as an adult nowadays). It's been over a decade since I've run any games. And i still like watching lore and any RPG news.
the skill points is just how it was in dnd 3.5
The 20 levels of gameplay equate to (2) different things, the 18 steps of the hero's journey and the 18-23 steps of a movie script. Meaning, in RPGs this story structure is scaffolding to produce emergent and immersive story from the players themselves.
I think about the only good way to get rid of spell slots is to give casters a spell point or two each level, and then let some refresh after each short rest. But you have to limit how many spells of each level they can cast in a day, so they have to use spells of various levels instead of spamming one spell over and over. The sorcerer and warlock classes in 5e are convoluted nonsense.
I have run multiple campaigns to level 20. The issue I always run into is the lose of interest in combat by that point. People hit their ideal goals at certain levels and lose interest in the progression of their character. It normally happens around level 12 to 15. Its also when the CR system breaks. Its a conundrum. There are so many cool powers and spells at high level but it takes so long to get to it it becomes lackluster.
Im hype as hell for this but could you discuss Level Up advanced 5E?
If you decide to explore other systems it might be a good angle to explore what mechanics are interesting and how they might be used in homebrew.
My d&d ability score/feat progression overhaul gives you one boost every level, a single ability score boost at one level, a feat (all of which are halved without an ability boost), and a utility/non-combat feat (so taking these flavorful options are not in place of usual feats... which helps martials have out of combat utility).
the good thing about the level system is that it encourages starting either from lvl1 or lvl10 and both take the same ammount of time to get to the "capatone"
Great stuff Coach! I think it was said before but this is sounding more like Pathfinder 2e. To be clear I am totally okay with that! More options and customizability while also linking the actual playing of the game (not playing lv 14-20 often) with the actual gameplay is genius. Watch out WoTC!
Super excited for the new system and all this content! I know you are super into this whole thing. As a fan, I'm just going to suggest that you edit out some of the repetitive parts.. I think people will be more likely to click on the video if it's tighter/shorter and doesn't retread the same idea 3-5 times here and there, even if it's a super important and exciting thing. (I might just be over saturated having already watched the Patreon livestream and stuff)
You will never see beyond level 12 if you are never interested in higher level play. If length of campaign is an issue (some people just get bored, I suppose), then start characters at level 10 and play from there.
Just a bad argument.
Also, the reason why the designers allow either a attribute score increase *or* a feat is because of balance. If we got all the things all the time, characters would become OP. I suppose if we want to enable dopamine overdrive for an award schedule, then rebalance your class designs to support that. I think you'll wind up facing the same issues that WotC / TSR has run into over the last 40 years.
Your system reminds me of D&D 3.5 when you get skill points every level. The problem with 3.5 is you got so many skill points that by the time you got the lvl 10 some skill checks were useless. I'm looking forward to a balanced skillpoint progression that makes things feel relevant as the game goes on.
From what he's shown so far it seems like a simplified 3.5e/PF2 with some interesting twists. Excited to see the details on how it balances.
Would be great to show an example of the things you mention!! Can’t wait for a future video about that
In my games, where characters gain an ASI on their class chart, they gain a feat (which cannot be ASI). When they reach Levels 4,8,12,16, and 20 as characters (independent of class), they gain their ASIs (how those increases cannot both be the same ability score).
I am SO excited to see a Dungeon Coach TYRPG system!!! A bright star in an uncertain dark sky.
Thus sounds amazing. I also think you would also help Pathfinder out. Both sounds great to me
Reminds me of a popular hack from the old days of 3rd edition called "Epic 6th Level" or E6 for short. In E6 characters stop leveling after reaching 6th level, but continue to gain feats. The idea was to remove the super high powered characters, the high fantasy to super hero feel of the game, nerf the spellcasters and instead "force" the game to play at the sweet spot of the system. It also cut down on complexity
A spell is a class feature though. When you get a 5th level spell slot, you get a list of like 15-20 class features to choose from. That is the most customization any class sees.
I would like to see videos on Pathfinder, DC20 system, and other systems. Help me sift thorough the information to find the right system is right to switch to after D&D. Thank you for all your creativity
As a thought for a magic system. Have Mana points and no spell levels. As a rough example, if you use 1 mana point to cast fire ball it does 1d6 damage and a blast diameter of 5 ft. Spend 2 mana points and increase the damage to 2d6 etc. Or spend extra mana points to increase the blast radius. Spend heaps of mana points and make a big blast that does lots of damage.
As a secondary option. Make the caster make some sort of Spell check based on point spent. make the save, keep the mana points. Effectively making weak spells cantrips. Fail the roll, you use up your mana points, spell still takes effect. If you fail the roll and exceed you mana points, the caster takes damage.
Feel free to use this concept Dungeon Coach.
spell casting system next plz!
the bits i miss the most from 2nd edition are the prestige classes.
really interested to hear more on those as well.
Have you thought about your alignment lawful neutral or chaotic and good neutral or evil were represented by a stat 18 ability?
It is ridicilous how similar we think. I've been writting my own systems for the past 3 years and i've only stumbled upon your channel few days ago. It is not identical.... but the overlap is insane....
So Epic 10.
Perfection.
the problem with lv20, is that the game is "more" balanced around lv10
and game breaking spells dms can't plan enough stuff
a smoother progression would not have as much issues
You don't want to make max level. You design it beyond what most people would get to. D&D made a game to 20th level because they noticed games weren't going beyond 20th. It used to go to 30 They left enough room to play to 20 if you want, but most games end well before that
I disagree, everyone who I have ever played with is frustrated about not reaching lvl 20 and not being able to get the full class experience.
i believe those who don’t mind are an expectation, based on my experience
Love the ability score improvement method you're doing here, I've always felt that starting at +5 makes you feel like you're already super good at that stat, even though you're level 1, doesn't give you a feeling of development. Starting at lower ability scores with the chance to improve them every level is something similar I've done, love to see how you've written it, sounds like yours is better lol
Sounds amazing I like the idea of a leveling system that doesn't force you to a new class to fulfill your characters vision. So increases each level that allows you to increase skill and attributes of your character or even purchasing new profiecncies
Coach, I have a few points that would be game changers for a new system.
One would be do away with AC or rather a boring passive defense and allow players to make opposing rolls to defend them selves in combat. Let armor be what it’s designed for= soaking or deflecting damage only. This would be a favorite update to combat that would keep the players more invested and doing something instead of waiting for their turn: make one attack miss-wait seven turns without rolling..etc.
thanks Coach. Keep the good fight going!
I'm loving the concept. I like the progression of stats and skills. Like you're adventuring. You're running, climbing, what all - why wouldn't your Str or Con go up, even for a weak wizard? Or while your Paladin with a soldier background is now making the party do pushups in the morning, maybe the Wizard is teaching the Barbarian how to read better (thus Int goes up). Or the Cleric and the Rogue having philosophic discussions (thus Wisdom), or maybe the Bard is teaching the Fighter how to use their words better (Charisma increase). And apply these all to skills - group doing a lot of Athletic type activities, maybe you want to put more into it? Or maybe hanging out with the nerdy Wizard, the fighter starts to learn some History. Also pointing out that 5e does a bad job of giving the classes enough skills. Yeah not every class needs to be skill-monkey like, but I really feel that putting points into Int, if you're not an Int Caster, should let you invest in skills. Fighters don't have to just be there to soak and dish out damage - they could you know contribute with knowing History or Survival or investing in Sneaking. Or maybe they want to assist the Cleric of the group and know medicine.
Anyways, look forward to more.
Let’s Go! #dc20
I'm super looking forward to that level system release!
So kind of like the new stargate rpg? Were lvls 1 - 3 is like "boot camp/basic training" and you custom build out from that point?
I find it interesting you are working with levels in your own system. This channel is all about customization, so I figured you would go for a point system like GURPS. If you haven't already, I would recomend checking out GURPS. It does away with levels, and you just get points to buy anything in the system. Want more dex? 20 points. Want to learn animal handling? 1 point. Want to be better at animal handling? another point. Want to fly? 50 points. Want to homebrew, built whatever you want, then ask the GM what the point cost is.
Anyway, level systems have their place, they guide the developement of your character, and makes for easier character creation and progression. But trying to fit maximum customization into them, is sort of like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole.
Cool idea! I like also the idea from Maze Rats where when you reach max level your character becomes a NPC. I also like the idea from Mörg Borg where you can get worse when leveling but it doesn’t matter because you will probably die sooner or later 😂
Make YOUR game. Make YOUR videos. Don't create by comity. We are here for YOUR vision. Stay true DC.
I am loving the content, can't wait to see this new system in action.
I truly believe that you are going to change the game. I know me and my friends use your rules at our table. I have 3 of your pdfs and I am definitely getting your ttrpg. Thanks for all the great content and not getting sucked into the whirlpool of the ogl and creating nothing but click bait content.
I'm excited to see what you come with.
5e level ups being so meh was a reason why I never fully got on board with it. I am super excited to see more out of this.
I am curious about one thing with the 10 level system. I know you are throwing away spell slots but what is a casters spell growth going to look like in a 10 level system? How will you differentiate spell levels? Will they have "max level" spells by 10? How would you balance that with the more martial oriented classes? Ok definitely not one question but they all tie together. But watching these make me quite excited for what you do put out!
"game is made to level 20 and no one really ever plays to that level"
This is why I dislike when people make builds and say first be a level 17 fighter then...
Who is doing this for a cheese build?
This is starting to sound a lot like turning 5e back into 3.x. I'm still intrigued, as the leveling/scaling issues certainly could use some refinement (and your enthusiasm is quite compelling)...I just hope my gut is stupid wrong here, because this sounds like "5e isn't 3.x, let's make it more like 3.x".
How will monsters translate?
dnd infamously falls apart when you cross 10th level, so most people end their campaigns before or people start many campaigns that fizzle out before their intended finish lowering the average campaign level to 8-12.
Coach *slams table*: THE PEOPLE WANT 10 LEVELS OF PLAY
You should look into Cypher System. Half these recommendations are built into the base rules for all Cypher System games.
Go go go Coach!! Transform the game!
I look forward to the D&D shirts you make where you go. Hey player leveling
Get rid of spell slots, get rid of gaps where all you get is hit points, My sister gets rid of blah blah blah that you find annoying, My sister makes seeds matter, My system has prestiges so that way when you level up past level 10 you hit Max, My system gets rid of level 18, 19 and 29 since that you never get to use!
Hit me with that elevator pitch coach, I love your videos. I love your system of the little bits that you've been foreshadowing
But I need a like 5min video of, here's everything in 5e I hated the most and a 1 sentence "I replaced it with this!"
I played fourth edition D&D. I played 5th edition d&d, I've now looked at Pathfinder. I've heard about idle RPG, and the date system.
I feel you have a unique position compared to the majority, where you can totally define yourself as a. Here's the important differences I have from 5th edition
Excited to learn more!, Go coach go
I love all the ideas for this new game! I recently started dming and playing 5e with some friends and as a dm building my first homebrew world i have to say i find so much i don't like about DND. Could this kind of design be brought into DND, kinda Frankenstein DND into a different game, most of friends don't care and like that I've been home brewing rules.
I was thinking os just giving my players the ability to get feats on certain level ups when they would get nothing. Would that be too busted? Also i was thinking of doing a milestone system instead of XP so i would just tell my players after completing a specific quest or x amount of quests they all level up (they are starting at lvl3 anyways)